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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the

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Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 1: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried bones.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how are you doing great? Paul?

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Speaker 1: How are you?

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Speaker 3: I'm doing great.

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Speaker 2: You know, I just had a very nostalgic moment doing

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Speaker 2: a zoom with my parents.

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Speaker 3: You know, back in the day, you know, when I.

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Speaker 2: First started to drive, I inherited it was a hand

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Speaker 2: me down nineteen seventy five dots in sevent ten station

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Speaker 2: Wagon has my very first car. So this is not

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Speaker 2: a car that any high school boy wants to drive.

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Speaker 1: Weight what color?

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Speaker 3: It was? Silver with a black roof.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and you know it's so uncool, especially you know

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Speaker 2: back in this would have been nineteen eighty four something,

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Speaker 2: right in there, early eighties, and I proceeded.

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Speaker 3: To blow the engine up.

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Speaker 1: How'd you do that?

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Speaker 2: You know, just you get this old four bang or

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Speaker 2: a vehicle and you kind of go too fast in

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Speaker 2: it and there's no oil in the engine.

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Speaker 1: Did you buy it with no oil or you just

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Speaker 1: didn't keep up with it?

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Speaker 2: I didn't keep up with it. I was not at

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Speaker 2: that point. I didn't know much about cars at all,

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Speaker 2: you know. So my dad had to get me another car.

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Speaker 2: He found a used car and it was quite cheap,

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Speaker 2: and so we drive up there. There's a little town

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Speaker 2: called Winter's, California, that was about ten miles north from Vacaville,

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Speaker 2: where I was living at the time. We wait for

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Speaker 2: the owner with this other car to pull in, and

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Speaker 2: he pulls in behind us, and my dad is looking

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Speaker 2: in the rear view mirror and he was just like,

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Speaker 2: oh no. Coming around the corner was this nineteen seventy

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Speaker 2: seven Mustang with the Cobra package, the Cobra two package

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Speaker 2: on it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I was right.

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Speaker 3: So it was like completely cool looking.

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Speaker 2: It had the owner had replaced the engine and so

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Speaker 2: it had this THREEHO two V eight engine that had

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Speaker 2: significant amount of power stick shift, and and I was

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Speaker 2: just like, yep, I don't care what's wrong with the car.

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Speaker 3: I want this car.

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Speaker 1: And how old were you? Seventeen?

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Speaker 3: I would have been sixteen.

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Speaker 1: So what did your dad say?

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Speaker 3: Well, he bought it. That was my high school car.

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Speaker 2: And so when I was on the zoom with my

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Speaker 2: parents yesterday, I had looked for photos of that car,

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Speaker 2: you know, in the photos that I had for my youth,

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Speaker 2: and I couldn't find it. Well, my parents found a

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Speaker 2: photo of that car in their collection, so they're going

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Speaker 2: to mail me that photo and that way I can

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Speaker 2: scan it. I'll share it with you. And it was

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Speaker 2: just it was just so cool to see after you

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Speaker 2: know what, forty years, you know, and all of a

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Speaker 2: sudden it was like, well, there she is.

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Speaker 3: There's my car.

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Speaker 1: Now are you going to be that guy who wants

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Speaker 1: to get that car again? You know, when you're sixty

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Speaker 1: or something like that. Nothing wrong with that. There are

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Speaker 1: plenty of people who do that. But you know that

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Speaker 1: nostalgia comes back, of course.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, But I will tell you for Mustangs, that was

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Speaker 2: a horrible, horrible time period.

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Speaker 3: They really doctest cars.

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Speaker 2: You want to do something, either earlier in the Mustang

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Speaker 2: series or later, not in the nineteen seventies, I gotcha.

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Speaker 1: I myself, at sixteen, had a speedy little Honda Civic.

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Speaker 3: Oh that was that doesn't surprise me.

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Speaker 1: That was very practical. My dad was really practical, and

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Speaker 1: he bought it for me. He bought it from his assistant.

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Speaker 1: And I looked at the odometer and I said, there

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Speaker 1: are eighty five thousand miles on this car. My dad

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Speaker 1: and stepmother lived probably about an hour drive from my

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Speaker 1: high school, and so I would see them every other week,

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Speaker 1: and so I was gonna put miles on this car.

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Speaker 1: And I said, Dad, this is eighty five thousand miles.

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Speaker 1: And then you know what he says. He said, but

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Speaker 1: she's never had any work done on it, so it's fine.

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Speaker 1: And I just kind of thought, even as a sixteen

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Speaker 1: year old, I thought, wouldn't that make you think there's

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Speaker 1: there's a lot happening. And then I think, probably about

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Speaker 1: seven months in, the carburetor went out, and I know

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Speaker 1: it was a stick shift, and this, you know, the

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Speaker 1: the clutch went out. It was it was awful. And

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Speaker 1: then we got it, put it and then we got

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Speaker 1: to put back together. And then you know this, I

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Speaker 1: was in a parking lot with all my friends shoved

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Speaker 1: into the car and we're blasting my A single def Leppard,

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Speaker 1: Pour some sugar on me, and I run straight into

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Speaker 1: a nineteen seventies era parked in Paula and crushed that car.

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Speaker 2: And it was you didn't crush the I Paula, You

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Speaker 2: crushed your Civic.

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Speaker 1: No, And the woman came out and she said, well,

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Speaker 1: I just have to screw the license plate back on

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Speaker 1: my car and don't worry about it. So that taught

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Speaker 1: me a lesson. Right, So first cars I think, I

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Speaker 1: think are really interesting. I can't wait to see the car.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I know you say in theory it's not

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Speaker 1: a great car, but I bet it looks really cool,

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Speaker 1: and that's all it counts to me.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, well, for me, it looked cool.

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Speaker 2: You'll see it. It's a little rough around the edges,

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Speaker 2: but it worked for me during high school.

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Speaker 1: And then we should repose that headshot of you with

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Speaker 1: the mustache. I always go to mustache and your feathered hair.

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Speaker 2: Well, this photo has me standing next to the car,

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Speaker 2: so you'll see, okay, Yeah, nineteen eighties Paul and all

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Speaker 2: his glory.

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Speaker 1: Love it, love it, love it.

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Speaker 3: All.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, we are going from you and you and

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Speaker 1: I zooming around as sixteen year olds to a very

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Speaker 1: urban area where I'm not sure how many teens are

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Speaker 1: actually driving around. This is in DC, which is one

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Speaker 1: of my favorite cities. It's in nineteen seventy one, and

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Speaker 1: it stretches into nineteen seventy two, and so we're talking

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Speaker 1: two or three years before I was born, and you

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Speaker 1: were just a wee wee lad at that point.

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Speaker 3: I think right nineteen seventy one, I was three.

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Speaker 1: All right, let's go ahead and set the scene. So

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Speaker 1: now I'm going to get really serious because I'm going

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Speaker 1: to give a very important trigger warning here. So this

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Speaker 1: is a case not only about sexual assault, but it

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Speaker 1: involves children. We went through Black Dahlia, which was just

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Speaker 1: such a brutal case for both of us to talk about,

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Speaker 1: and this case is in other ways equally is disturbing.

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Speaker 1: So I just want to warn people before they see

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Speaker 1: this that this will be you know, there's there's some

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Speaker 1: pretty tough parts in here. Now it will appeal to

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Speaker 1: you because we've got lots of clues, lots of profiling

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Speaker 1: and just a really really interesting case.

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Speaker 3: Cool.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so there is a book. I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: tell you the title of it. I can tell you

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Speaker 1: the title of the end because it'll kind of give

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Speaker 1: away everything. But it's from twenty nineteen from two wonderful

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Speaker 1: authors who I've interviewed, both of them a Blaine Pardoo

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Speaker 1: and his daughter Victoria Hester. And they were the main

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Speaker 1: source for this. So I have them to think because

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Speaker 1: they did such a thorough job. They had also written

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Speaker 1: about the Colonial Parkway murder and so you know, they're

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Speaker 1: really on top of this kind of story. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: seventy one, let me just give you some historical context.

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Speaker 1: So DC and seventy one, the city's on edge. There

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Speaker 1: are a lot of anti war marches, you know, that

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Speaker 1: are attracting between a quarter of a million and half

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Speaker 1: a million protesters over the last two weeks of when

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Speaker 1: this whole case starts, and there are May Day protests,

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Speaker 1: and there are you know, government proceedings are being derailed,

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Speaker 1: and so there are an awful there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: chaos in the city. Police are very very busy, which

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Speaker 1: is not great news for us. About twelve thousand people

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Speaker 1: have been arrested just over you know, that time period,

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Speaker 1: so chaos that will affect this case. Just letting you

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Speaker 1: know where we stand with the police.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I I was just recognizing that I

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Speaker 2: moved to the DC area in nineteen seventy four, so

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Speaker 2: I pretty much have really good memory of of course,

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Speaker 2: you know, the mall in d C, and kind of

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Speaker 2: being in that environment roughly around the time that these

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Speaker 2: cases were occurring.

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Speaker 1: Okay, And this is also what's interesting is Patricia Cornwell,

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Speaker 1: who's a very famous fiction author. I've had a couple

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Speaker 1: of times nonfiction too, So she was with a medical

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Speaker 1: examiner in Virginia when this was happening, and so we're

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Speaker 1: crossing some jurisdictions here, and so this is one of

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Speaker 1: the things that kind of inspired the beginning of her

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Speaker 1: writing career. She had already written before, but it kicked

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Speaker 1: off her very famous you know investigator that became such

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Speaker 1: a big name for her Scarpetta. So it's interesting the

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Speaker 1: cross over there.

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Speaker 2: I used to routinely read Cornwell, you did. I did

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Speaker 2: a big fan of the case Scarpetta character.

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Speaker 1: So she this is the only person I've referred to

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Speaker 1: in this way, but she is a hoot. She's great

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Speaker 1: to interview. She was the one where I had asked her,

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Speaker 1: is it difficult for you to come up with new

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Speaker 1: forensic tools or do you just have tons of forensic

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Speaker 1: tools that Scarpettic could use? And she said, no, what's

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Speaker 1: hard is to get away from forensics. How am I

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Speaker 1: supposed to have a killer? Do you know deter police

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Speaker 1: when literally they can get caught in nine thousand different ways,

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Speaker 1: Which is so different from when she started writing these

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Speaker 1: books where DNA evidence really or anything like that. So

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Speaker 1: she's finding it more difficult.

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Speaker 2: Really, well, this is where you know, when I get

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Speaker 2: pulled into certain projects and not to DVA too far

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Speaker 2: off from the case, but this is where for me,

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Speaker 2: like the forensic side is the boring side. It's the case.

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Speaker 2: It's the story. You know, you throw you know, a

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Speaker 2: swab into the lab and wait for DNA results and

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Speaker 2: you solve the case that way. That's great for public safety,

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Speaker 2: but it's not great storytelling.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so this is a really really compelling story. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're going to jump right into this. There's not going

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Speaker 1: to be any family dynamic talk or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: We're going to start with a murder that is very

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Speaker 1: disturbing for me. So we are nineteen seventy one, and

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Speaker 1: this starts with May first. Okay, there is an eleven

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Speaker 1: year old boy who's playing with us friends behind Saint

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Speaker 1: Elizabeth's Mental Hospital mid afternoon forty five is or so

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Speaker 1: he wanders down a grassy embankment and he discovers a body,

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Speaker 1: and it's a body of a young black girl. She

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Speaker 1: is lying face down in the grass. She is fully

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Speaker 1: clothed except for her shoes, so no shoes, and he

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Speaker 1: rolls her over. This eleven year old boy, I cannot

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Speaker 1: imagine doing that, but he did, and he can tell

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Speaker 1: that she's dead, and so he waves down patrol officers

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Speaker 1: on Interstate two ninety five, and so we begin a

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Speaker 1: massive investigation. We are first introduced to Detective Sergeant John Moriarty.

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Speaker 1: He is assigned to the case, and when he gets

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Speaker 1: to the scene he sees the girl. He thinks she's

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Speaker 1: been dead for two or three days. Her nose is bloody,

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Speaker 1: her lower lip is split, her face, neck and chest

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Speaker 1: are all cut, not abrasions cut. There are bruises on

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Speaker 1: her neck, but there's no blood and it appears that

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Speaker 1: her body has been cleaned. And I think they get

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Speaker 1: that impression because you know, she is spick and span

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Speaker 1: and she's been laying in grass.

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Speaker 2: So just backing up, you said her chest was cut,

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Speaker 2: was her throat cut? Her neck was cut?

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Speaker 1: Her face, neck, and chest are cut. But they're not

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Speaker 1: saying slit.

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Speaker 2: I'll wait to comment on the injuries. The only observation

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Speaker 2: I'm making right now, obviously she was killed elsewhere, she's

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Speaker 2: lacking blood and she's got clothes on. You know, I'll

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Speaker 2: be interested to see if the clothes are showing you know,

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Speaker 2: the damage, you know, as if you know whatever the

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Speaker 2: weapon was, or if she was redressed, you know, if

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Speaker 2: she's not bleeding from what it from these wounds, and

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Speaker 2: those wounds could potentially be post.

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Speaker 3: Mortem, you know.

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Speaker 2: So there's some aspects that I'm sure once we get

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Speaker 2: to autopsy stuff would help me kind of sequence, you know,

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Speaker 2: what happened to her and how the offender transfer awarded

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Speaker 2: her to this particular location.

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Speaker 1: Okay, there are a lot of clues that I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be going through. So I don't know, if you

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Speaker 1: want to put your hand up, if you want me

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Speaker 1: to stop, I'm going to try to organize them. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So there's evidence like stomach contents and things that they

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Speaker 1: find on her body. There is evidence regarding sex assault,

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Speaker 1: and there is evidence regarding what we just talked about,

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Speaker 1: the injuries. So do you want me to start with

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Speaker 1: the injuries and then go to the sex assault and

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Speaker 1: kind of go outward?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Please?

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Speaker 1: All right, So here we go. The medical examiner says

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Speaker 1: it looks like she had been held captive for several days.

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Speaker 1: There are crescent shaped marks on the left side of

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Speaker 1: her neck. They think she had been manually strangled. They

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Speaker 1: do rule her death as exphyxiation.

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Speaker 3: Ok.

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Speaker 1: There are scrapes on her hands and traces of blood

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Speaker 1: under her fingernails, which they say means she fought back.

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Speaker 1: They identify hairs from a black individual, not hers, that

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Speaker 1: are recovered on her short her sweater, her underwear, her

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Speaker 1: hair bread. They say she was repeatedly sodomized, yet there's

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Speaker 1: no semen found on her body or her clothes. And

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Speaker 1: then we've got citrus fruit in her stomach contents, and

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Speaker 1: her mother, I believe, will say that she was not

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Speaker 1: given citrus fruit, you know, when we identify her, and

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Speaker 1: so they believe she was fed over a couple of

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Speaker 1: day period. There are green synthetic fibers that are found

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Speaker 1: on her shorts and inside her underwear.

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Speaker 2: So as of right now, you know, just maybe to

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Speaker 2: explain those crescent shaped injuries. You know, that's entirely consistent

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Speaker 2: with fingernails, and this could be something that is left

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Speaker 2: by the offender as the offender is strangling her. Oftentimes,

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Speaker 2: so the victims will leave their own fingernail marks on

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Speaker 2: their neck as they're trying to fight the offender's hands.

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Speaker 3: And so now it's kind of.

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Speaker 2: Looking at the positioning how these crescent shaped marks are

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Speaker 2: positioned on the neck to try to determine is this

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Speaker 2: from the victim coming up underneath let's say the jaw line,

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Speaker 2: or is this more consistent with you know, the you know,

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Speaker 2: the fingernails from the offender pressing down into her neck

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Speaker 2: during manual strangulation and then of course with you know,

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Speaker 2: being held captive for days. Now get into kind of

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Speaker 2: timeline information. Does the medical examiner's observation does that add

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Speaker 2: up with when the victim was last seen?

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Speaker 1: Let's talk about that. So they identify the victim again,

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Speaker 1: this is where things get hard for me. She's thirteen.

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Speaker 1: They look at missing children reports and the detectives identify

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Speaker 1: her as Carol Denise Spinks. She is black. Her nickname

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Speaker 1: was Bebe, and she was a typical seventh grader, pleasant

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Speaker 1: little girl, like to hula hoop, double jump, you know,

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Speaker 1: and play jack. Here's the timeline. She had been last

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Speaker 1: seen on April twenty fifth at a seven eleven, about

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Speaker 1: half a mile from her Congress Heights home.

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Speaker 2: So we're talking roughly six five to six days that

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Speaker 2: she was missing then.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and she would yeah, she was discovered me first,

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Speaker 1: and they think that she had died two or three

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Speaker 1: days before, so they believe she was held captive. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So she was seen at that seven eleven, about a

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Speaker 1: half a mile from her house. She left her home

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Speaker 1: to go to the shop at seven forty pm when

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Speaker 1: it started getting dark because this is daylight Savings, and

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Speaker 1: she didn't come home. Her mom, whose name is Alentine Sphinx,

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Speaker 1: reported her missing, but the DC police think that she

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Speaker 1: is probably a runaway and they don't initiate a search immediately.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if that's nineteen seventies. I don't know

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Speaker 1: if it's because she was black. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it was because of her neighborhood. I don't see anything

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Speaker 1: about a troublemaker or anything like that, so I don't

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Speaker 1: really know what the thinking was there, but it sounded

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Speaker 1: like she called the police that night, like her kid

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Speaker 1: doesn't come home by ten or whatever, and she calls

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Speaker 1: the police immediately.

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Speaker 2: You just even you know, out of my jurisdiction from

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Speaker 2: this era, seemed like, more often than not, law enforcement

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Speaker 2: usually dismissed, you know, these missing kids as runaways very

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Speaker 2: very quickly, you know, and sometimes there's you know, a

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Speaker 2: previous history that would indicate, you know, that this is

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Speaker 2: maybe a likely possibility that the kid has has gone missing.

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Speaker 2: There may be circumstances where it doesn't seem like it's

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Speaker 2: you know, a case in which you have indicators that

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Speaker 2: there's foul play going on, you know, but when you

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Speaker 2: have a parent reporting her daughter missing that quickly, this

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Speaker 2: should be a red flag to law enforcement and that

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Speaker 2: you know, this is something that the parent is going,

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Speaker 2: this is not normal for my child.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes you'll have a parent go, well, yeah, the next day,

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Speaker 2: we report the kid missing, but there's a history of

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Speaker 2: the kid running off. You know, what are the observations

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm making you know, here you have a

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Speaker 2: thirteen year old girl that's you know, half mile away

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Speaker 2: out of seven eleven. This was very typical. I did

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Speaker 2: that during the nineteen seventies, you know, jump on the

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Speaker 2: bike or walk and go. I was going to buy

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Speaker 2: football cards, you know, whether it be seven eleven or

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Speaker 2: the various you know, convenience stores.

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Speaker 3: And I'm forgetting the names.

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Speaker 2: This was predominantly like San Antonio, part of my life,

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Speaker 2: you know. So that's you know, that's not a red

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Speaker 2: flight to me. She's just out probably doing something she

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Speaker 2: did as you know, a young girl all the time.

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Speaker 1: I also wonder, and I don't know if this is

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Speaker 1: the case now or then, what do you think the

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Speaker 1: cutoff is for child at risk versus young girl tween

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Speaker 1: or teenager who probably was a runaway. Like I don't

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Speaker 1: see the police having this reaction if she were eleven

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Speaker 1: or maybe even twelve, But because she was thirteen, I

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Speaker 1: just wonder, And that's not an excuse. I just wonder,

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Speaker 1: now what do police think about that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, usually twelve and under is you know, you're looking at,

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Speaker 2: you know, more of your prepubescent ages, in which oftentimes

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Speaker 2: kids those age aren't given the freedoms that let's say

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Speaker 2: a thirteen or fourteen year old is given, and I'd

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Speaker 2: probably put thirteen and fourteen sort of and maybe fifteen

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Speaker 2: in sort of that kind of that transition age until

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Speaker 2: now you're dealing with a sixteen year old on up.

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Speaker 2: And even though legally a sixteen year old is not

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Speaker 2: considered an adult, oftentimes they have a lot more freedoms

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Speaker 2: than the younger kids, and law enforcement pays attention to that.

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Speaker 2: And this is where again victimology's huge. You know, what

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Speaker 2: is going on in Carol's upbringing? How much freedom did

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Speaker 2: she have leading up to her going missing? Had she

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Speaker 2: been at that seventy eleven before? Is it possible along

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Speaker 2: the route that she's you know, riding her bike or walking,

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Speaker 2: that somebody is seeing this girl alone at a certain

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Speaker 2: time of day and decides to go ahead and snatch her.

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Speaker 2: Or does somebody at the store, you know, see her

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Speaker 2: alone and follow her out there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, there's so many possibilities.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I'm glad that you brought up the nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventies and you wandering off to go buy football tickets.

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Speaker 3: Ran Tarkenton football cards.

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Speaker 1: Football cards, sorry now football tickets?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, school vikings here weh.

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Speaker 1: Here're such a little boy. So I'm glad you gave

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Speaker 1: the context though, because I was thinking, okay, so her

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Speaker 1: mom was okay with her walking at night. I know

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Speaker 1: that it was lighter outside in May walking alone at

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Speaker 1: night to a convenience store and it's a half a

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Speaker 1: mile away. But I'm glad. You know, I was a young, young,

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Speaker 1: young little girl in the seventies and so I really

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Speaker 1: I didn't get to do that kind of thing. But

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that this was not surprising to you.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's it was just a sign of the time.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: This is like you like, you go into certain communities

398
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Speaker 2: during this time and they wouldn't lock their doors to

399
00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 2: their house or you know, you know their windows, and

400
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 2: predators took advantage of these freedoms. You know, there's so

401
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Speaker 2: many cases from the sixties into the seventies where you know,

402
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Speaker 2: the kids are out playing and there are distance from

403
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Speaker 2: their home and they never return. And it's not due

404
00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 2: to you know, today you see a child of this

405
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Speaker 2: age by themselves, you go, I do that. I go,

406
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Speaker 2: where's mom, where's dad? You know, I get a little

407
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Speaker 2: bit worried because you know, that's an isolated kid, you know.

408
00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,520
Speaker 2: But back then, this has nothing to do with, you know,

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Speaker 2: any neglect on the parents' part. This is just what

410
00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 2: was accepted. And then over time, once people started to

411
00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 2: realize that, you know, these kids, it's not a high

412
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Speaker 2: frequency thing, but these kids are you know, a target

413
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Speaker 2: for predators, you know, and that's the worst case scenario

414
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Speaker 2: for any you know, kid, or any parent or that matter.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let me tell you what happens with Carol. So

416
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Speaker 1: after they find the body, so she had been missing

417
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Speaker 1: for what did we agree on, five six days? Five

418
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Speaker 1: or six days? Now, they start looking at the community

419
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Speaker 1: and they find a witness who says that she saw

420
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Speaker 1: Carol with two black men who were abducting her and

421
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Speaker 1: taking her into a blue car, dragging her into a

422
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Speaker 1: blue car. So when Carol's mom hears that, she thinks

423
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Speaker 1: maybe the kidnapper or kidnappers had been impersonating a police officer,

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Speaker 1: because she said Carol was smart, I don't know about

425
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Speaker 1: street wise, but smart, and she really believes her daughter

426
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Speaker 1: would not have gotten into a car with any strange

427
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Speaker 1: man except for a police officer. One note before you

428
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Speaker 1: react to that is I think this is the only

429
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Speaker 1: instance where a witness saw two people. I don't think

430
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Speaker 1: that's been repeated ever since now, it's always been one person, okay.

431
00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,760
Speaker 2: And then of course it's like, well what in terms

432
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Speaker 2: of how these two men were getting Carol into the car?

433
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Speaker 2: Did they pick her up? Was she fighting? Was she

434
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Speaker 2: walking with them cooperatively? You know, which could mean that they.

435
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 3: Just ordered her.

436
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Speaker 2: You know, it's something I often will go on a rant.

437
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: Is that just a you know, the physical presence of

438
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 2: an adult male with a younger kid. You know, that

439
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: male authority, That man's authority is something that can be

440
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:36,640
Speaker 2: the controlling mechanism to have the child do what that

441
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 2: man wants. You're coming with me. The man doesn't necessarily

442
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,439
Speaker 2: have to use force, and it doesn't mean that the

443
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 2: child has you know, well has consented, know, just that

444
00:23:46,840 --> 00:23:49,919
Speaker 2: now you're being ordered. And in some ways this is

445
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 2: like Delphi. You know, the two girls there on the

446
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 2: railroad trestle, and we now know that the man had

447
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 2: a gun, But did he even have to use that

448
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 2: gun or display the gun to order the girls down

449
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 2: the hill?

450
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:05,240
Speaker 1: No?

451
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 2: You know, he could have just said get down the hill,

452
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 2: just because of his physical presence and that perceived authority,

453
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 2: that he has over them.

454
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I don't have the detail about the witness

455
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 1: and how the witness described this kidnapping supposedly with two men.

456
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,959
Speaker 1: I don't get the impression that it was fighting and kicking,

457
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: because for the mom to have the reaction, her reaction was, well,

458
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,679
Speaker 1: maybe it was a police officer, because it must have

459
00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 1: been convincing, you know. But as I said before, I'm

460
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,200
Speaker 1: not sure how reliable this witness is because I don't

461
00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: hear the story repeated of two people. I do hear

462
00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: one person repeated. So police are working this case finally,

463
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: and we are now two and a half months later.

464
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: We're right in the middle of the summer. You know,

465
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: this is going to be an outdoor scene, and I

466
00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: think that that's going to come into play. Now we

467
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,640
Speaker 1: have another victim. So this is July twelfth, and it's

468
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: five point forty five pm. The metropolit police get a

469
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,719
Speaker 1: disturbing report that the body of a young girl has

470
00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: been discovered on the side of I Too ninety five.

471
00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 1: Like Carol, here's the problem. It's a report and it

472
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: sounds like the caller did not identify themselves, and so

473
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: now police have to go search for this body, which

474
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: may or may not be there. So you have lots

475
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 1: of reports coming in over the next week about where

476
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: the body might be. They search, but they don't search

477
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 1: on foot in this area. I have no idea why

478
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: they cannot find the body. Seven days later, July nineteenth,

479
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: they find this girl's body. She is fifteen feet from

480
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 1: where Carol's body had been discovered. She had been exposed

481
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 1: to the sun hot days in July. She had been

482
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: in an extreme state of decomposition. They don't know whether

483
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: she had been sexually assaulted. They don't know how she died.

484
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 1: She was fully clothed, she was not wearing shoes. I

485
00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: have no idea why they didn't search on foot.

486
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:08,679
Speaker 3: That's lazy, and we don't get a lot.

487
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: Of that, Paul. We get cops who don't have the

488
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: right tools, but we don't get a ton of lazy

489
00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 1: I don't think lazy cops. We had a lot of

490
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: cops who don't know any better. Maybe on our cases.

491
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: Well, and they may just be okay, we have a

492
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 2: body in a general area, so they're just kind of

493
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 2: cruising around seeing what they can spot from their.

494
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,040
Speaker 3: Patrol car, you know.

495
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: But to have this body being found basically in the

496
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: same spot where Carol's body was. That seems like that

497
00:26:36,080 --> 00:26:38,680
Speaker 2: would be a logical location just to get out and

498
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,159
Speaker 2: you know, walk around and see. Now, I'll tell you

499
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 2: based on the you know, the the circumstances, the amount

500
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 2: of time, the time of year, the exposure, you know,

501
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 2: surface depositive this body. I mean basically, this body is

502
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: going to be close to skeletal due to the insect activity, desiccated,

503
00:26:57,200 --> 00:26:59,640
Speaker 2: you know, due to the you know, the hot, hot sun.

504
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 2: Now one of the factors is, you know, the DC

505
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: area can be quite humid and so it may not

506
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 2: be as desiccating as like in my former jurisdiction out

507
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,920
Speaker 2: in you know, the Bay area. But this is going

508
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,639
Speaker 2: to be a problem. I can undercompletely understand why they

509
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: can't determine whether or not there is any science of

510
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 2: sexual assault or how she was killed, you know, which

511
00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 2: the pathologist or an anthropologist is going to be looking

512
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 2: at the various bones to see us or any knife

513
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 2: defects in the bone, Are there any fractures, you know,

514
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:30,640
Speaker 2: like to the skull, and they're not seeing that as

515
00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: my my presumption, you know, and so you could still

516
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 2: have a stabbing death and not see bones being damaged

517
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 2: and there's just a soft tissue. However, we know what

518
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: happened to Carol, and the victimology is the same. The

519
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,000
Speaker 2: body dump location is the same. Clothing, no shoes, it's

520
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,960
Speaker 2: all the same. This is really sounding like the same

521
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: offender you know, killed Carol and killed the second child

522
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 2: and probably strangled the second child just like Carol.

523
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 1: So because they can't show any photo, you know, they

524
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: just have a general description of this girl. They go

525
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:06,679
Speaker 1: back to the missing children reports like they did with Carol,

526
00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:10,320
Speaker 1: and that's how they're able to identify this victim. Also,

527
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: she's sixteen, so Carol was thirteen. Her name is Darlenia

528
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 1: Denise Johnson, and she also lives in Congress Heights, about

529
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: a five minute walk from Carol's family. So she had

530
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: last been seen on July eighth, So Carol had last

531
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: been seen on April twenty fifth. Darlenia has left her

532
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 1: house at ten thirty that morning, July eighth, she went

533
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: to work at the Oxen Hill Recreational Center. She told

534
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: her family that she was going to spend the night

535
00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: chaperoning a retreat for some kids, but she told her

536
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 1: friends that she was going to be spending the night

537
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: at her boyfriend's. So her mom, whose name is Helen McNeil,

538
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: reported her missing July ninth, when she learned that Darlenia

539
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: never even made it to work that morning, so she

540
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: left at ten thirty. I don't know when she was

541
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,440
Speaker 1: supposed to be at work at this rec center, but

542
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: her mom assumed she went to work, and then assumed

543
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: she went to this retreat, and then when she didn't

544
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: come back the next day, that's when she knew something

545
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 1: was wrong.

546
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 3: Did Darlena walk to her place of work?

547
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: Yes, I believe that she walked. I don't see anything

548
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:24,760
Speaker 1: about a car. I don't know if any of these

549
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 1: people had cars, so yeah, it sounds like she walked.

550
00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: So we have Carol going out to the seven to

551
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 2: eleven basically in this same neighborhood in the evening time,

552
00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: and she's either on foot or on a bicycle right

553
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: thirteen year old. She's not driving a car, and Darlena

554
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,479
Speaker 2: is walking to her place of work and never makes it.

555
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: So now the offender in both instances is crossing paths

556
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: with these two girls in that neighborhood.

557
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 3: And this is where you.

558
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 2: Know, is there any common path that Carol and Darlena

559
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: would would and then now I've got a potential target

560
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 2: of houses that I'd be knocking on the front doors

561
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: and interviewing the occupants and seeing who henks up.

562
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 3: Right.

563
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, this is going to be a little bit

564
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: of a twist that I think could help us figure

565
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 1: out who this killer is. Darlinia's mom, Helen, tells the

566
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: police that she had started getting disturbing phone calls after

567
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: her daughter's body was found, and she said that the

568
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: caller would breathe heavily and then say I killed your daughter. Yeah,

569
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: it sounds very Golden State killer.

570
00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: And Phil Hughes another serial killer that I dug into

571
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 2: and one of his first victim that he is actually

572
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 2: convicted of killing. After he had abducted and killed that victim,

573
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: he called the dad the next day and basically said,

574
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 2: I've killed your daughter. This is a way for the

575
00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: offenders to reach out and get a thrill because they

576
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 2: enjoy causing suffering and pain not only to the you know,

577
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: physically to the actual victims, but also to the family.

578
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: And and there is a paraphilia this uh scatalogia, you know,

579
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 2: it's where it's the use of you know, the telephone

580
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: can be very sexually gratifying for these offenders. With DeAngelo,

581
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,640
Speaker 2: there's a psychological uh sadism that is occurring. He enjoys

582
00:31:24,760 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: instilling fear. You know, we don't know about this particular

583
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: offender and why he's doing it, but right now I

584
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: would I would suspect that that's, you know, part of

585
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 2: what's going on in his mind. It's also now, how

586
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: is he getting the family's phone number? Did he get

587
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 2: that from Darlenia? Did he hold her captive? Does he

588
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 2: know who the family is or you know, does he

589
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 2: just knows where Darlenia lives and looks in you know,

590
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:50,880
Speaker 2: looks in a phone book. There used to be these

591
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: reverse directories, you know that you could just look up

592
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 2: the address and find the phone number assigned to that address.

593
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

594
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: Obviously today we have all the online resources, but back

595
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 2: then the phone books that were put out by the

596
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: phone companies, you could only look up the phone number

597
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 2: by the person's actual name, not by an address.

598
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, but if he held her, he would know her name, right, yep.

599
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 1: Because when people when you have someone who is kidnapped

600
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 1: and they are held and we've done a lot of

601
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: these stories involving children, we see evidence that they're fed

602
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,960
Speaker 1: sometimes of course, sometimes they're you know, kept in terrible

603
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: conditions and then killed her like oh or whatever. But

604
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: there's a lot of time there we have no idea

605
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: what the killer knows about them or what they find

606
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 1: out about the killer. So it's interesting and this gets

607
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: much deeper down that road too.

608
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd be asking mom, did Darlena have a purse

609
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: with her? Does she have an idea in the purse,

610
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 2: you know, which would have all this, you know, her

611
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 2: personal information on it. So there's ways a killer could

612
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,880
Speaker 2: easily have gotten information to torment the family or to

613
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: torment the mom.

614
00:32:53,320 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, well he's not going to just torment family. There

615
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 1: is a community organizer who very rightfully so decides she's

616
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: had enough of all of this. She gathers people together.

617
00:33:07,880 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: Her name is Dorothy Wheeler, and she's planning a series

618
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,840
Speaker 1: of street meetings for Congress Heights residents. These meetings come

619
00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 1: together they discuss the failure of the Metropolitan Police in

620
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: protecting black communities. Dorothy Wheeler gets threats over the phone

621
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 1: now and it is a man with a deep voice,

622
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: and he threatens to rape, murder, and then drop Dorothy's

623
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: daughter on the side of the road. No, we don't

624
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 1: know if it's the same guy and ultimately nothing happens

625
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 1: to Dorothy's daughter.

626
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, you could see you possibly the offender

627
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: that is responsible for these two homicideses is making that

628
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 2: threat just because he's wanting to kind of expand the

629
00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 2: you know, sort of the mythology of him across the

630
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: community with Dorothy the one that's leading these meetings. Or

631
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 2: you could have somebody who really just doesn't like Dorothy

632
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:04,960
Speaker 2: and is aware that these cases are going on and

633
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 2: decides to torment her even though that phone caller is

634
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:10,879
Speaker 2: not the one responsible for the homicides.

635
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:16,240
Speaker 1: Let me just go through this timeline, Paul, real quick.

636
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: So Darlina went missing on July eighth, The report of

637
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:25,200
Speaker 1: a body was four days later. She was not discovered

638
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:30,120
Speaker 1: until eleven days after she went missing, and the decomp

639
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff, So we don't know if

640
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: she was kept. They can't tell. But I mean, if

641
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: these are really connected cases, then that could be likely.

642
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: I suppose she's older though, and probably more capable of

643
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 1: fighting back than I would guess Carol was at thirteen.

644
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but now at least with two data points, you

645
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 2: see an offender that appears to be going after children

646
00:34:55,160 --> 00:35:00,359
Speaker 2: that are in puberty or post pubescent, if you will,

647
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: versus going after the really really young kids. When you're

648
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 2: starting to evaluate, Okay, what kind of offender am I

649
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: looking for? We'll see if he has more victims, you

650
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: know what the victimology is. But right now it's thirteen

651
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 2: and sixteen. That seems to be his target age and

652
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: likely that's his sexual preference, is girls in that age range.

653
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: Okay, now we are moving on to July twenty seventh.

654
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,839
Speaker 1: So this is it's so confusing because it's like when

655
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 1: do they go missing versus when they're discovered. So July

656
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: twenty seventh, these two sort of come together. It's nine

657
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: forty at night, and there is a family called the

658
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: Crockett family, and there is a little girl who's nine

659
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: and her name's Bertha. The phone rings. Bertha picks up

660
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 1: the phone. Nothing is wrong, as far as she knows.

661
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 1: On the other end of the line is her sister,

662
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: who is ten, and her name is Brenda Fay Crockett.

663
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 1: She's a fifth grader. The standard good kid went to

664
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 1: church and school safety patrol. So an hour and forty

665
00:36:09,840 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: minutes earlier, Brenda had gone out to get some dog

666
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,759
Speaker 1: food and a paper from Safeway grocery store, which was

667
00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 1: a block and a half from her house. So this

668
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,439
Speaker 1: is not a long walk, but it is at night.

669
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: When she didn't return at eight thirty, her mom had

670
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,359
Speaker 1: gone out to look for her, so I'm assuming because

671
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: of these two other cases, everyone is on high alert.

672
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 1: When she didn't come back a half an hour later,

673
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: her mom went out. But Brenda's on the phone and

674
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,799
Speaker 1: she tells her younger sister that a white man had

675
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 1: picked her up and driven her to his home in

676
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:47,240
Speaker 1: what she says is Virginia. And although Brenda is crying,

677
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:51,040
Speaker 1: she tells Bertha that she'll be coming home soon. And

678
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 1: at nine forty five, Brenda calls again, and this is

679
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: really Brenda. A family friend is there because Bertha has

680
00:36:58,000 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: told the story, and you have people converging in the

681
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: assuming they've called the police. A family friend picks up.

682
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,319
Speaker 1: Brenda's not crying, but she says the same thing. White

683
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: man picture up in Virginia, and she says, did my

684
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: mother see me? The family friend can hear loud footsteps

685
00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,920
Speaker 1: echoing in the background behind her. Brenda says, well, I'll

686
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,319
Speaker 1: see you and then the line is disconnected.

687
00:37:20,719 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 3: Shit, well that's very ominous.

688
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: Again, you have Brenda is ten, So you have a

689
00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,240
Speaker 2: young girl walking to a store, just like the first

690
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,479
Speaker 2: case with Carol. You know, this offender, he's definitely out

691
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 2: there trolling for victims. He's looking for victims in this

692
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: particular area and is seeing these girls that are by themselves.

693
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: The phone calls is fascinating. He's allowing Brenda to make

694
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:51,440
Speaker 2: this phone call, or he's made the phone call and

695
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: is forcing Brenda to communicate the second phone call and asking,

696
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 2: you know, if mom saw anything. The offender is a

697
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 2: little paranoid. You know, it's like, oh, this is very

698
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: close to her house where I got her, you know,

699
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 2: as possible. You know, Mom was outside when I pulled

700
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: her into the car.

701
00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 3: You know.

702
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: So he's trying to figure things out and having Brenda

703
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 2: basically tell the family I'm okay, I'll be coming home.

704
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 2: And so this is going to cause a family to

705
00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 2: I don't know if you want to call it relax,

706
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: but in essence, maybe some of the urgency to try

707
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: to find him isn't quite there because they're expecting, or

708
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 2: at least they've been told by Brenda herself.

709
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:31,440
Speaker 3: I'm coming home.

710
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, but still somebody picking her up a white man.

711
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: God, no again. You know this is your worst nightmare

712
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:38,959
Speaker 2: as a parent.

713
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

714
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I'm assuming they called the police and the next

715
00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: day Brenda's body is discovered by a hitchhiker. So this

716
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 1: is on the grassy shoulder of Root fifty, which is

717
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: just outside of DC in Maryland. I have a map.

718
00:38:57,800 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: I need you to ignore all the other points of

719
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: the but you know I have a map that kind

720
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 1: of can give you. I think this gives me an

721
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 1: idea of these roads, because now we're not on two

722
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: ninety five anymore, we're on fifty. Or can you kind

723
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:14,759
Speaker 1: of picture what do you want to do?

724
00:39:14,880 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: Well, I'm looking at a map of DC as it

725
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: exists today, and it's interesting to me. You know, I

726
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 2: saw where Saint Elizabeth's, a psychiatric hospital, was located, and

727
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 2: how close the first two victims were, and it sounds

728
00:39:29,760 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: like this is also roughly the same area where Brenda

729
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 2: was living. So he's he's picking these girls up here.

730
00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: Now.

731
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:45,360
Speaker 2: Two ninety five going northeast eventually does kind of intersect

732
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 2: with Highway fifty. Yeah, So if Brenda is being told

733
00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: and remind does she say that she was in a

734
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 2: house in Virginia.

735
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: She said he had driven her to his home in Virginia. Okay,

736
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 1: but he's found in Maryland.

737
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and how she know at ten years old? Has

738
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 2: she's been abducted? Does she really know where the location

739
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: of his house or has he told her we're in Virginia.

740
00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 2: And this would be what I would call this verbal

741
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 2: staging where he's now having Brenda feed the family misleading information.

742
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: And then I would I would say, if that's what's happening,

743
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 2: then he doesn't live in Virginia. You know, he's trying

744
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,840
Speaker 2: to misdirect the investigation away from possibly that whole Congress

745
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 2: Heights area of Maryland, of the southern part of DC.

746
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. Do you want to see this map or do

747
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:37,240
Speaker 1: you want to wait?

748
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 2: I'll take a look at the map. So I'm looking

749
00:40:40,520 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 2: at this map. This is a very simplified map that

750
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:46,879
Speaker 2: shows the location of the White House and the Potomac River,

751
00:40:47,719 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 2: showing the I two ninety five its route along the

752
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 2: east shore, roughly the east shore of the Potomac River,

753
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 2: but not right up against the river, just kind of

754
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:04,479
Speaker 2: follows the river up to the northeast and then it's

755
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: got marks on the map showing where each of the

756
00:41:08,600 --> 00:41:13,279
Speaker 2: victims residents was located, and then where there they were

757
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: last seen, and then where their bodies are found. You know,

758
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: with these, you know, three cases, it is showing how

759
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 2: close each of the victims were to their own residents

760
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 2: when they were when they were last seen. You know,

761
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 2: like when I when I work series, I'm a huge

762
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 2: Google Earth person, where I'll put pushpins just like this,

763
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:35,840
Speaker 2: this map is attempting to do. And I do the

764
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:39,239
Speaker 2: same thing, you know, where did they live, where they

765
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:42,319
Speaker 2: last seen, where their bodies were found, and then I

766
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 2: start looking for patterns. With just three cases, it's it's

767
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: hard to say a pattern outside the first two. You know,

768
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 2: he's he's picking Darlena and Carol up roughly in the

769
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,239
Speaker 2: in the same neighborhood, and he's dumping their bodies, you know,

770
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 2: right next to each other. Now with Brenda, it is

771
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:06,120
Speaker 2: interesting is that she's now much further away in terms

772
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:11,240
Speaker 2: of where she lived, and her body is being dumped

773
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:14,839
Speaker 2: a significant distance away from where the other two bodies are.

774
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 2: That in part may be influenced by this possible paranoia

775
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 2: that the offender is wondering.

776
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 3: You know, did Mom see him?

777
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,759
Speaker 2: You know, and he's not wanting to go back to

778
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,880
Speaker 2: where he dumped the previous two victims and have further

779
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:33,640
Speaker 2: witnesses at that location that possibly could, you know, say hey,

780
00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 2: I saw a blue car, if that's even relevant. But

781
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,719
Speaker 2: with just three cases at this point, you know, it's

782
00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 2: hard to really discern much of a pattern outside that.

783
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: You know, out where Brenda's body is found is in

784
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 2: the direction in which I two ninety five and Highway

785
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 2: fifty end up, kind of linking up through a complex interchange.

786
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, keep the map handy because I think it'll

787
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:04,439
Speaker 1: help with its geographic profiling. But it'll definitely help coming up. Okay,

788
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 1: let me tell you about the condition of her body.

789
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 1: She is about five feet from the curb of this road,

790
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,839
Speaker 1: laying face up, just like the first two victims. She

791
00:43:15,239 --> 00:43:18,920
Speaker 1: is fully clothed, but she had white tenisues on they're missing,

792
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:24,160
Speaker 1: and she is also missing several pink plastic and foam

793
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 1: hair curlers that were in her hair. There's a scarf

794
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: knotted around her neck. This is new and Prince George's

795
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: medical examiner believes that Brenda had died five or six

796
00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 1: hours earlier. By exphyxiation. She went missing on the twenty seventh,

797
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 1: and they found her the next day on the twenty eighth.

798
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:50,080
Speaker 1: So if she were kept, then he didn't keep her

799
00:43:50,160 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: very long like he might have done with the others.

800
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that also maybe again he's wondering if he

801
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,279
Speaker 2: was spotted and so now he can't keep her long?

802
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 2: Is what he kept Darlenia or Carol. That's that's what

803
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: I'm reading into that, you know, So he's redressing his victims.

804
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: I mean, there's no question there's a sexual motivation, you know,

805
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 2: to these crimes. This is something people often don't understand

806
00:44:19,120 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: how frequently offenders will redress victims. So just because a

807
00:44:23,520 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: victim is fully clothed doesn't mean that there wasn't sexual assault.

808
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: You still have to look for that sexual assault evidence. Now,

809
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 2: they were limited back in nineteen seventy one nineteen seventy

810
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: two in terms of what they could find, and they

811
00:44:36,000 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: didn't put a lot of relevance on it, especially you know,

812
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:41,600
Speaker 2: semen evidence, because they couldn't do anything with it at

813
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 2: the time. It was just like, yeah, there was you know,

814
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: there's a sex a sex act that left semen on

815
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 2: or inside the victims. At that point, they couldn't type

816
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: it like we can today. So but the redressing is significant.

817
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: He's you know, with with Carol, I think it's obviously

818
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 2: cleaned or up. With the amount of injuries that she had,

819
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 2: he's probably cleaning up both these other victims. That may

820
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: just be a practical matter, so they're not getting a

821
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 2: bunch of blood inside his vehicle. With Darlenia, we don't

822
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 2: know due to the condition of her body, whether she

823
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: had been cut up as much as Carol had. I'm

824
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: assuming with Brenda being such a fresh body, we've got

825
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: some good information from autopsy.

826
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and let me give that to you, because this

827
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:29,320
Speaker 1: feels different to me. The medical examiner says, there are Okay,

828
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: let me just say this is a ten year old

829
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: and these are pretty disturbing details to me. So if

830
00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 1: you guys want a thirty second your way through this,

831
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: you can. There are circular bruises that resemble bite marks

832
00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: on her nipples. There is blood and seamen found in

833
00:45:45,440 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 1: her underwear. I don't quite understand this, Paul, but they

834
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:52,279
Speaker 1: say there is human tissue in her vagina and in

835
00:45:52,320 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 1: her right hand she clinches hair from a black person.

836
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,720
Speaker 1: And then there's some external like black text style fibers

837
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: and green synthetic fibers that are recovered from her scarf

838
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: and her shirt and her shorts and her underwear. This

839
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: seems brutal more than I think the details that we've gotten.

840
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:14,480
Speaker 1: Although Carol had cuts and we don't know what happened

841
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: to the second victim, but you know, leaving the scarf

842
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: around her neck, I thought was interesting. This seems like

843
00:46:21,560 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: he just wasn't like you had said before, it was rushed.

844
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and the use of you know, with Carol,

845
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 2: we know, sounds like it was manual strangulation because you

846
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 2: didn't describe any type of ligature marks at all. The

847
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 2: use of the ligature could be just an evolution, but

848
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,640
Speaker 2: also this also could could indicate that he realized he

849
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: had to get rid of her pretty quickly. He wasn't

850
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 2: going to be able to spend as much time with

851
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 2: the body in captivity. So now he doesn't develop, you know,

852
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 2: certain fantasies about how the homicide is going to go

853
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,840
Speaker 2: if he's you know, some of these offenders are killing

854
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: to eliminate a witness, and so I don't know exactly

855
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 2: what how this offender is thinking. But with a ligature

856
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 2: being applied to Brenda it. Maybe he puts that around

857
00:47:11,400 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 2: her neck and instantly scoops her up into her vehicle

858
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 2: and drives and dumps her body. And so the ligature

859
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 2: is affecting the kill while he is in the process

860
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 2: of making his escape plan, if you.

861
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 1: Will, okay, So here we go. The police think that

862
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 1: they get a break in the case in a pretty

863
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,799
Speaker 1: unfortunate way. There is a month that goes by with

864
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 1: no leads, and then September comes and there's a report

865
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: that we have a survivor. If this is the same person.

866
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,320
Speaker 1: The survivor is a twenty year old named Judy Anne Garrison,

867
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: and she says on September thirtieth, she had been walking

868
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: alone when a black man pulled up beside her, forced

869
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: her into his car, and attempted to sexually assault her.

870
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,359
Speaker 1: She kicked the shit out of him with the heel

871
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,879
Speaker 1: of her shoe and she got out, but she did

872
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: memorize the attacker's license plate number. Love, Judy, I mean amazing.

873
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 1: So they get the license plate number. They figured out

874
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: it's registered to a guy named Jesse Tobin. He has

875
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: been diagnosed with schizophrenia and he has a history of

876
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 1: sexual violence against women. He at one time, Paul had

877
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,799
Speaker 1: been a patient at Saint Elizabeth's.

878
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,240
Speaker 3: I was going to ask, mm hmmm, which.

879
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 1: Is in that that place kind of comes back a

880
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,880
Speaker 1: couple of times, which is where Carol and Darlina's bodies

881
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: had been found. So let me tell you this little

882
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: tiny bit. They arrest him for assault, and they think,

883
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: finally they've caught the guy. The problem is is, while

884
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 1: he's under psychiatric evaluation, there is another.

885
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: Murder that I'm assuming parallels the first three. Absolutely, yes,

886
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 2: So obviously, you know, this is assuming that now the

887
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: you know, all four cases are related to one offender,

888
00:48:57,200 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: which seems likely, and if that's the case, is in

889
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: custody for the fourth one, we can eliminate him as

890
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: this particular killer. And when you described you know Judy,

891
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 2: you know, first she is older than the first three.

892
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 2: She's you know, an adult. And it's not saying that

893
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:21,000
Speaker 2: the whoever's killing the other girls couldn't you know, attack

894
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,920
Speaker 2: on a twenty year old. But the victimology is a

895
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,120
Speaker 2: little bit different. But the you know, the pulling into

896
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,600
Speaker 2: the car, being forced into the car and it's actually assaulted

897
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: in the car is significantly different. Than what's happening to

898
00:49:33,320 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: the other three. And this is not an uncommon crime.

899
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 2: You know, you're looking at the DC area, you are

900
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:44,919
Speaker 2: going to be having you know, multiple rapists and even

901
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 2: multiple serial rapists doing these types of crimes at the

902
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 2: same time. You know, So that's part of the difficulty

903
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,279
Speaker 2: law enforcement is working with, is well, is this the

904
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,840
Speaker 2: same or not? Right now the circumstances, Yeah, up front

905
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 2: didn't sound the same. And then we have a fourth

906
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 2: case that I'm you're now going to give me details

907
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 2: that I'm assuming parallel the first three.

908
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And I mean I think what you had

909
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,839
Speaker 1: also been getting out, which is it sounds like there

910
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,399
Speaker 1: was coersion control with the first three victims, because you know, well,

911
00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:17,400
Speaker 1: at least Brenda with the phone call doesn't sound panicked,

912
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: so it does seem very different. And you know, you're right,

913
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:22,080
Speaker 1: there's probably sleazy guys.

914
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 3: Everywhere, Oh yeah, there are.

915
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: You know, even in nineteen seventy you'd be shocked at

916
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:30,439
Speaker 2: the number of serial predators that were out there.

917
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 3: You know, it just was constant.

918
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to have another body. And when I'm

919
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 1: done telling you, you can look at the map again

920
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 1: so you can see where where this occurred in relation

921
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:44,040
Speaker 1: to our other three cases. So this is October first,

922
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,880
Speaker 1: and as I said before, Jesse Tobin is safely locked

923
00:50:47,880 --> 00:50:54,680
Speaker 1: away for you know, psychiatric evaluation. Around eight forty five pm,

924
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: this is a fourth body that's been reported in the

925
00:50:58,480 --> 00:51:02,560
Speaker 1: grass near Pennsylvani Avenue Southeast, which is just a quarter

926
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 1: of a mile from the border of DC and Maryland.

927
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:09,239
Speaker 1: This is a young girl who is lying face up.

928
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: She is wearing all her clothes. She also has a

929
00:51:12,239 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: pair of white tennis shoes. I don't know if these

930
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,160
Speaker 1: are her white tennis shoes or if they're Brenda's, but

931
00:51:18,200 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: she's wearing shoes. There is an extra shoe that they

932
00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: think might have belonged to Darlinia Johnson that has kind

933
00:51:26,760 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: of thrown haphazard near her body. There is a small

934
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: tire track nearby, and an abandoned Safeway groceries bag on

935
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: the sidewalk near some woods. And even though this seems

936
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,839
Speaker 1: key to me, even though it's been raining raining, her

937
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: body is dry. So they're thinking she had been dumped

938
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: after the rain.

939
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 2: I guess, sure, man, So this is another fresh body.

940
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 2: I mean, right now, we don't know when she was

941
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 2: last seen missing.

942
00:51:55,600 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 1: What do you want to know about the timeline, which

943
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:59,400
Speaker 1: is startling to me, or do you want to know

944
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: injuries before she's identified.

945
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: I'll go with the injuries, but first let me make

946
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:07,640
Speaker 2: a comment about the shoes. You know, I've worked a

947
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:12,360
Speaker 2: fair number of cases and missing shoes is a frequent

948
00:52:13,080 --> 00:52:16,800
Speaker 2: thing that happens, you know, and it's for a variety

949
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: of different reasons, depending on the offender and the circumstances

950
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: of the case.

951
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 3: You know.

952
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:26,759
Speaker 2: Oftentimes, you know, the offender is dumping a body that is,

953
00:52:26,880 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 2: you know, completely nude, gets rid of the clothing, you know,

954
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 2: in a dumpster, and then it's throwing the shoes out

955
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,480
Speaker 2: of a car window as he's driving away or however,

956
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,160
Speaker 2: you know, and so that, you know, some people think,

957
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 2: oh that there must be like a shoe fetish. It

958
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,200
Speaker 2: was like, well, no, there's practical aspects to why the

959
00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 2: shoes are not with the body. Sometimes the shoes during

960
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:48,319
Speaker 2: a struggle come off inside a car, you know, and

961
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 2: then the offender, as he's gotten rid of the body,

962
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:54,479
Speaker 2: looks down and sees there's shoes on the floorboard, right,

963
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: or something to that effect. In this particular case, you know,

964
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 2: the shoes are on this victim's body. But then there's

965
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:07,239
Speaker 2: an extra shoe that they think possibly might be Darlenia's.

966
00:53:07,000 --> 00:53:07,200
Speaker 3: You know.

967
00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,000
Speaker 2: And is this a shoe that was in his vehicle

968
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 2: and he just happened to see it, you know, as

969
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: he's getting rid of this victim and that's why that

970
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 2: shoe is deposited, or is this a taunt He had

971
00:53:18,600 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 2: kept Darlina's shoe in his residence or in his vehicle,

972
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,759
Speaker 2: and now he's leaving a message. I'm the same guy,

973
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:28,640
Speaker 2: you know. So that's a step up in terms of

974
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,600
Speaker 2: he wants. He wants at least law enforcement to know

975
00:53:33,040 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 2: I'm a serial predator, you know, and he's sending a

976
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 2: message by leaving Darlinia's shoe.

977
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the injuries of this girl. We haven't

978
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 1: identified her yet. It's we're now at the Baltimore Medical

979
00:53:45,280 --> 00:53:48,319
Speaker 1: Examiner's office because she was found in Baltimore, and they

980
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: discover that this girl had been violently raped. There are

981
00:53:53,239 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: fingernail marks, possibly from a left handed individual, on her neck.

982
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: In her face, there is seam recovered from her body.

983
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: She was strangled manually and with a ligature and hair

984
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: from a black individual is embedded in her sweatshirt, her

985
00:54:10,840 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: jeans or underwear, and a sanitary pad. And there are

986
00:54:15,360 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: those green synthetic fibers that are also found on her

987
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:21,280
Speaker 1: body that we've seen on a couple of the other victims.

988
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 2: Okay, so them determining he's left handed based off of

989
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 2: these fingernail marks, I don't put any weight on that

990
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 2: at all. Course, now we're seeing consistently across at least

991
00:54:34,640 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: three of the four victims. I'm not sure in Darlina's case,

992
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 2: because their body was well, maybe they had black hairs

993
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:45,040
Speaker 2: as well. With Darlena, because it's possible those hairs would

994
00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 2: survive the elements, you know, in terms of on the

995
00:54:47,920 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: clothing or in her underwear wherever.

996
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: Well, and remember the problem with Darlina is that she

997
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:57,279
Speaker 1: had been so badly decomposed. I'm not sure.

998
00:54:58,800 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 3: Her clothing would be a mess too.

999
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:02,799
Speaker 2: It's just that how you know, I just know how

1000
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 2: you know, analysts operate, and they may take a look

1001
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: at that pile of goo that's her clothing and go, now,

1002
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 2: we're not we're not even going to bother looking for

1003
00:55:11,560 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 2: trace evidence off of that. Yeah, but you know, at

1004
00:55:15,120 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 2: least consistently, it's looking like these are hairs from a

1005
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 2: black individual, you know, So that's also you know, tying

1006
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 2: these cases somewhat together. Of course, all of the victims

1007
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 2: are growing up in black families. Could some of these

1008
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,280
Speaker 2: hairs be you know, attributed to members of the family

1009
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: or you know, other hairs within their residence. But the

1010
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 2: one victim had black hair that was clutched in her hand,

1011
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 2: you know, And that's interesting. That suggests that that's you know,

1012
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:50,720
Speaker 2: contemporaneous with her being killed.

1013
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: Let's see, So that was our unknown victim, and our

1014
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:00,840
Speaker 1: first victim, Carol, had fought back, so she was a

1015
00:56:00,880 --> 00:56:03,399
Speaker 1: thirteen year old, because they found hairs from a black

1016
00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: individual recovered on her shorts and her sweater and her

1017
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: underwear and in her hair burrat and.

1018
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 2: She had blood underneath her fingernails, which could be her

1019
00:56:11,600 --> 00:56:14,439
Speaker 2: own blood. But you know, it's possible she fought back.

1020
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:18,040
Speaker 2: Did she get you know, did she cause him to

1021
00:56:18,040 --> 00:56:19,719
Speaker 2: have a bleeding injury and she got some of his

1022
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 2: blood underneath her fingernails. And this guy's he's leaving semen,

1023
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,240
Speaker 2: you know, And like I said, back in the nineteen seventies,

1024
00:56:26,280 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: they couldn't do much with that, but today we could

1025
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:32,320
Speaker 2: identify who this guy, is so be interesting to see

1026
00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 2: where this case stands.

1027
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:37,120
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because Blaine, part

1028
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,319
Speaker 1: of you know, the author that I have interviewed, he

1029
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:43,960
Speaker 1: wrote in his book Tantamount, which is about the Freeway

1030
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 1: Phantom murderer, and so that's what this case is officially

1031
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 1: called Freeway Phantom murderer.

1032
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:50,400
Speaker 3: Okay.

1033
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 1: Blaine says that although semen samples were recovered at the

1034
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: Baltimore Medical Examiner's office, there's an FBI report that comes

1035
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: out in December of that year sending one that says

1036
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: there was no semen found. So I don't know.

1037
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,839
Speaker 2: There's nuances, especially when you have different entities looking at

1038
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 2: the evidence, you know, and how how the medical examiners

1039
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 2: look at semen versus how a laboratory does is usually

1040
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: a different process and potentially off of different items of evidence.

1041
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: Typically a medical examiner's office, let's say they do a

1042
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:27,960
Speaker 2: vaginal swab. What they do is they take that wet

1043
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:31,720
Speaker 2: vaginal swab and rub it on a microscope slide is

1044
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: what we call a smear, and then they will put

1045
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:40,760
Speaker 2: that underneath the microscope and look for sperm. It's a

1046
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 2: very very poor technique from a sensitivity standpoint. We frequently

1047
00:57:47,600 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 2: have smears made by you know, whether they be sexual

1048
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:57,800
Speaker 2: assault nurses or you know, a pathologists and say negative.

1049
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: And then in the laboratory when we actually do a

1050
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 2: more robust method of extracting the cells from the swabs, stainings,

1051
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:11,200
Speaker 2: you know, differentially staining these cells so the sperm actually

1052
00:58:11,280 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 2: really stand out. We often are positive for sperm, which

1053
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 2: is of course is positive for semen. When we have

1054
00:58:18,680 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 2: previous professionals using that smear technique as saying it's negative,

1055
00:58:24,040 --> 00:58:27,320
Speaker 2: now here we have the opposite. And so this is

1056
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:30,480
Speaker 2: where I would need to evaluate. Okay, the FBI lab,

1057
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 2: what are they looking at? Are they looking at the

1058
00:58:33,880 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 2: same swab that the pathologists use to create a smear?

1059
00:58:38,040 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 2: Are they looking at a different swab? And you can

1060
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:45,640
Speaker 2: have two vaginal swabs taken and one can be positive

1061
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:48,240
Speaker 2: and one can be negative just because of what those

1062
00:58:48,280 --> 00:58:52,520
Speaker 2: swabs contacted inside the body when they were collected. So

1063
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 2: that's that would be part of the evaluation. And I

1064
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 2: would say that that's where you know today, if they

1065
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,280
Speaker 2: haven't done that, I would be going back to you know,

1066
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:05,800
Speaker 2: the me's office to see if they still have that

1067
00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,320
Speaker 2: smear that the pathologist said, oh, what's positive for sperm?

1068
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 1: Okay, well that would be really interesting, you know, and

1069
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of genetic material. It sounds

1070
00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: like in this case.

1071
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,720
Speaker 3: Just if did they keep it? You know, that's going

1072
00:59:20,800 --> 00:59:23,400
Speaker 3: to be the big question, right Okay.

1073
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 1: Now they are able to identify this victim, and she

1074
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: is a twelve year old and her name is Nina

1075
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: Mosha Yates and we call her Nino. So she's twelve.

1076
00:59:36,680 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: And this is what's really to me difficult, Okay, So

1077
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 1: this is her body is discovered at eight forty five pm.

1078
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 1: She was returning home from Safeway picking up which is

1079
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 1: a block away. She had bought some sugar and flour

1080
00:59:52,840 --> 00:59:54,920
Speaker 1: and some paper plates to celebrate the birth of her

1081
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: half sister. Okay, So people saw her get into a

1082
00:59:59,360 --> 01:00:03,320
Speaker 1: car with a blue Volkswagen with a yellow stripe. So

1083
01:00:03,480 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: this was an hour and forty minutes before they found

1084
01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: our body. So this all happened within hours of the

1085
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 1: police responding.

1086
01:00:14,160 --> 01:00:16,959
Speaker 2: Right now, this is this is a more typical type

1087
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:22,280
Speaker 2: of case that I would generally see, versus holding victims

1088
01:00:22,320 --> 01:00:27,200
Speaker 2: captive for a period of time. So generally, you know,

1089
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:32,040
Speaker 2: we know offenders that do the stranger abduction on children

1090
01:00:33,120 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 2: often will get to a location where they feel safe

1091
01:00:36,760 --> 01:00:40,200
Speaker 2: enough to be able to carry out what they want

1092
01:00:40,200 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 2: to carry out with that child, and they do this

1093
01:00:43,640 --> 01:00:48,280
Speaker 2: as quickly as possible. So the children are generally often

1094
01:00:48,360 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 2: killed within thirty minutes of being abducted, and then, of

1095
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:55,360
Speaker 2: course the offender can take some time to figure out

1096
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: where the body's going to be placed. So Nino's case

1097
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 2: is kind of more typical. But why the change? Yeah,

1098
01:01:05,120 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 2: And you know, one thought is if the offender is

1099
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 2: actually taking these kids back to his residence, does he

1100
01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 2: now have a roommate, Does he have a wife or

1101
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 2: a girlfriend that's inside the house at this point at

1102
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,280
Speaker 2: the time of Nino sing, and he can't take the

1103
01:01:20,360 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 2: victim back there, I'm kind of curious. You know, green

1104
01:01:23,880 --> 01:01:27,560
Speaker 2: synthetic fibers were found pretty much up to this point

1105
01:01:27,640 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 2: with all the victims. Does Nino also have the green

1106
01:01:30,320 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 2: synthetic fibers?

1107
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 1: If I look back at Nino's autopsy report, now that

1108
01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: we know who she is, violently raped, fingernail marks and

1109
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: green synthetic fibers found on her body.

1110
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 2: Okay, and so now it's what kind of fibers are these?

1111
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 2: What's what kind of product is it on? And I

1112
01:01:50,800 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 2: mean either scenario I can't eliminate since we have green

1113
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 2: synthetic fibers you know across the series, you know is

1114
01:01:57,520 --> 01:02:01,919
Speaker 2: does he live close enough by? So he gets Nino, goes,

1115
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 2: takes her back to the residence, fibers are transferred on

1116
01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:07,680
Speaker 2: her body from there, and then he kills her right

1117
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:10,680
Speaker 2: away and has time to dump her body. So that

1118
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 2: gives at least a which would say, sort of a

1119
01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 2: geographic spread in terms of, well, how far could he

1120
01:02:18,640 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 2: have driven back to his residence and then get out

1121
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:24,040
Speaker 2: to the location where her body's found, And now you

1122
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 2: have sort of a It doesn't narrow down much, but

1123
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:30,960
Speaker 2: it gives you at least he's in the general area.

1124
01:02:31,040 --> 01:02:33,640
Speaker 2: It's not like he's coming from out of state. If

1125
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 2: the source of the fibers are back at his resident

1126
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:37,840
Speaker 2: from right something at his residence.

1127
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: Well, speaking of geographic areas, now is a good time

1128
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 1: for you to pop up your little map and look

1129
01:02:44,240 --> 01:02:49,040
Speaker 1: for number four Nino yates in relation to one, two,

1130
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:49,560
Speaker 1: and three.

1131
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's further, definitely further east. So of course you

1132
01:02:53,560 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 2: know where she was last seen and where residences are

1133
01:02:56,560 --> 01:03:00,080
Speaker 2: as close together. It is interesting. You know, we see

1134
01:03:00,200 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 2: to have Safeway popping up in multiple cases. You know,

1135
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 2: so right now, don't know what that means, but you know,

1136
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 2: I could, I could speculate that in just a second.

1137
01:03:10,880 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 2: I think Nino's body is being deposited, you know, relatively close,

1138
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 2: a little bit further south than where she was last seen.

1139
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 2: Where her residence was and where her body is deposited

1140
01:03:25,280 --> 01:03:30,280
Speaker 2: is northeast from Carol and Darlenia, but it is along

1141
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 2: that I ninety five corridor, if you will, but a

1142
01:03:34,360 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 2: little off I ninety five. So he's now switched. I

1143
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 2: would say his his hunting ground for a victim. But

1144
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:48,040
Speaker 2: he's consistent in terms of coming across a girl that

1145
01:03:48,320 --> 01:03:52,200
Speaker 2: is isolated by going to a store. Now, is he

1146
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:57,800
Speaker 2: purposely choosing Safeway because that just seems to be something

1147
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: that works for him larger park lot, that's a possibility.

1148
01:04:02,680 --> 01:04:05,200
Speaker 2: Does he have a connection to Safeway, whether he's employed

1149
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 2: by Safeway, whether he's doing deliveries truck driver delivering the Safeway.

1150
01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 2: Is he security you know for a Safeway lost prevention

1151
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:18,720
Speaker 2: officer and you know, you know, as he's at work,

1152
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,640
Speaker 2: is he gets off work and is trolling for victims

1153
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 2: in the area of his employment. But the spread across

1154
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 2: these four cases.

1155
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:29,240
Speaker 3: Now, and I'm going to go back to that map,

1156
01:04:29,680 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 3: what is starting to stand.

1157
01:04:31,680 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 2: Out between these first four cases is that he is

1158
01:04:37,600 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 2: not attacking in DC proper. Now, too few data points,

1159
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 2: but sometimes what you see, what geographic profilers will observe,

1160
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 2: is what's called this smoke stack. So if you're to

1161
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:52,840
Speaker 2: you know, kind of take a look straight down on

1162
01:04:52,920 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 2: a smoke stack, you have like a circle, and you

1163
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 2: have cases that are all around the circle, but nothing

1164
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:03,320
Speaker 2: in the middle of that circle. Well, that can be interpreted, well,

1165
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:05,520
Speaker 2: that's an anchor point for the offender. That could be

1166
01:05:05,560 --> 01:05:08,040
Speaker 2: where he lives and he doesn't want to offend too

1167
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:10,600
Speaker 2: close to his residence. He could be where he works,

1168
01:05:10,960 --> 01:05:14,200
Speaker 2: could be you know, a family member, a girlfriend, whatever,

1169
01:05:14,360 --> 01:05:17,400
Speaker 2: you know. We don't know at this point. So as

1170
01:05:17,480 --> 01:05:19,880
Speaker 2: further cases come, that's going to be one of those

1171
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:22,040
Speaker 2: things I'm going to be taking a look at. Does

1172
01:05:22,120 --> 01:05:27,439
Speaker 2: the smokestack pattern continue to stand up over the next

1173
01:05:27,440 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 2: few cases.

1174
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:31,480
Speaker 1: So let me give you a little bit more information

1175
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 1: about Nino Yates. So you know, I told you that

1176
01:05:36,640 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 1: they found her spilled groceries and it was in a

1177
01:05:39,480 --> 01:05:43,360
Speaker 1: wooded area near where her body was found. Remember, she

1178
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 1: had been getting into a blue Volkswagen with a yellow stripe.

1179
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,960
Speaker 1: We've heard blue before. I think the first witness who

1180
01:05:50,040 --> 01:05:53,520
Speaker 1: said that they thought that Carol had been forced into

1181
01:05:53,560 --> 01:05:56,080
Speaker 1: a blue car. I don't know if those are.

1182
01:05:55,920 --> 01:05:58,920
Speaker 3: Going to correlate by by two black men.

1183
01:05:58,760 --> 01:06:02,040
Speaker 1: By two black men, right, we haven't heard that since. So,

1184
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:07,240
Speaker 1: you know, they find the groceries. The neighborhood kids say

1185
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:11,240
Speaker 1: that there was a strange man that had been exposing

1186
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 1: himself when they were walking to and from school right

1187
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,280
Speaker 1: around this area. So I don't know if they make

1188
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 1: that connection yet.

1189
01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:22,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so hard to say if it's the same

1190
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:25,680
Speaker 2: guy or not. You know, you have this guy, he's

1191
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 2: into exhibitionism. This is where you have these nut jobs

1192
01:06:30,400 --> 01:06:32,880
Speaker 2: that are doing this type of thing, you know, the

1193
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:35,959
Speaker 2: typical stereotypical thing with the guy in the trench coat,

1194
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,920
Speaker 2: has nothing on underneath, walks up and then opens it up.

1195
01:06:39,400 --> 01:06:42,800
Speaker 3: It's just it's something that the investigators.

1196
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 2: Have to pay attention to because this guy would be

1197
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:48,400
Speaker 2: doing this on multiple occasions. It's somewhat of a compulsion

1198
01:06:48,440 --> 01:06:53,920
Speaker 2: to do and maybe he's been contacted prior, you know,

1199
01:06:54,040 --> 01:06:58,480
Speaker 2: because of the exhibitionism. And you know, this is where

1200
01:06:58,480 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 2: you look at what we call FI car.

1201
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:01,440
Speaker 3: You know, was he arrested?

1202
01:07:01,640 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 2: Then you can you can you know, find out do

1203
01:07:03,840 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 2: we have any arrest for this crime, do we have

1204
01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 2: any bookings into the jail for this crime? Or do

1205
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:12,240
Speaker 2: we have an FI card where you have strange man

1206
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 2: in a neighborhood? You know, I mean the frequent thing

1207
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 2: that law enforced patrol will go out to with this

1208
01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:22,240
Speaker 2: somebody doing this. It's not the trench coat type of guy.

1209
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 2: It's the guy that is sitting in his car and

1210
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:28,919
Speaker 2: he's exposed in the car and draws. You know, let's

1211
01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 2: say a woman's attention to him and then he's like

1212
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 2: exposed and she sees it.

1213
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 1: Well, I have a question about that. You know, we've

1214
01:07:36,320 --> 01:07:40,960
Speaker 1: talked about how peeping toms are not harmless, that oftentimes

1215
01:07:41,000 --> 01:07:44,080
Speaker 1: they escalate to sexual assault. It's sort of the origin

1216
01:07:44,120 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 1: of it, right right. Does it seem weird to you

1217
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:50,280
Speaker 1: Let's say that this is a viable suspect. Does it

1218
01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 1: seem weird to you that someone who has been it

1219
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:57,320
Speaker 1: seems like relatively well organized in what he's doing. I mean,

1220
01:07:57,360 --> 01:08:00,919
Speaker 1: we are now at victim number four, nobody knows who

1221
01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: he is. There really don't seem to be witnesses that

1222
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:09,640
Speaker 1: can point to him. Who would, before killing his fourth victim,

1223
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 1: be seen in the area by multiple children, exposing himself.

1224
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:16,519
Speaker 1: That just seems like too high risk for what he's

1225
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:17,519
Speaker 1: trying to do.

1226
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,000
Speaker 2: What is you know, and this is that's a perfect

1227
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,320
Speaker 2: observation that you just made. You know, offenders that are

1228
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:28,559
Speaker 2: at least you know, reasonably got their their act together.

1229
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,160
Speaker 2: You know they're going to try to do things to

1230
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:36,320
Speaker 2: minimize their risk, but there's also this risk reward aspect

1231
01:08:36,439 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 2: that is going through their head. And as I mentioned

1232
01:08:39,520 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 2: somebody that is an exhibitionist, these guys often have such

1233
01:08:44,160 --> 01:08:48,719
Speaker 2: a strong compulsion that the reward they get from doing

1234
01:08:48,800 --> 01:08:52,360
Speaker 2: that crime is something where they're willing to take on

1235
01:08:52,439 --> 01:08:55,799
Speaker 2: the risk, even if they're also abducting and killing kids

1236
01:08:55,840 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 2: at the same time. So it really comes down to

1237
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:01,920
Speaker 2: that balance. Now, you may be dealing with what I

1238
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 2: call the troll under the bridge type of guy. He

1239
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,280
Speaker 2: happens to have a car and you know, seems to

1240
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:10,920
Speaker 2: be reasonably with it in terms of the homicides, But

1241
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,839
Speaker 2: he may not necessarily be your most sophisticated, intelligent, offender

1242
01:09:14,960 --> 01:09:18,680
Speaker 2: that can really truly evaluate the risks he's taking, and

1243
01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,679
Speaker 2: those are the types of offenders that get caught right,

1244
01:09:22,240 --> 01:09:26,040
Speaker 2: versus somebody like a Joseph DiAngelo. Yeah, we had to

1245
01:09:26,040 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 2: wait for technology to improve in order to actually get

1246
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 2: him and his name after forty four years we never

1247
01:09:32,640 --> 01:09:35,360
Speaker 2: had in our case files and our master suspect was

1248
01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:38,559
Speaker 2: because he was intelligent and minimized as much as he

1249
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,799
Speaker 2: could the risks that he took to get himself caught.

1250
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 3: Right.

1251
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:45,160
Speaker 1: It seems like two totally different offenders. And like you said,

1252
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,000
Speaker 1: there were you know, throw a rock at this time

1253
01:09:48,040 --> 01:09:51,439
Speaker 1: period and you'd hit a dirty, you know, nasty guy

1254
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: who's doing all kinds of weird stuff in DC.

1255
01:09:54,840 --> 01:09:58,080
Speaker 2: So there's so many guys that are involved with this

1256
01:09:58,320 --> 01:10:02,360
Speaker 2: exhibitionist you know, it's a serious crime in a way,

1257
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:05,559
Speaker 2: but it's also when you read these types of you

1258
01:10:05,560 --> 01:10:07,080
Speaker 2: know what these guys are doing.

1259
01:10:07,240 --> 01:10:08,439
Speaker 3: You know, we had one guy.

1260
01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 2: Is six y five, three hundred pounds watching the sex

1261
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 2: workers at night and we had a series of unsolved

1262
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:17,400
Speaker 2: Thomas sizes and sex workers at the time. Patrol finds

1263
01:10:17,479 --> 01:10:19,680
Speaker 2: him and he's completely nude inside his truck and he's

1264
01:10:19,720 --> 01:10:23,960
Speaker 2: got vasline smeared all over him, literally smeared all over him.

1265
01:10:24,520 --> 01:10:26,519
Speaker 3: These are just weird guys. Weird.

1266
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 1: I think that's an understatement. So finally we're getting it

1267
01:10:31,400 --> 01:10:33,760
Speaker 1: together with the police, and of course I know you've

1268
01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:37,719
Speaker 1: since the issue is with making these connections. You've got

1269
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:42,160
Speaker 1: Maryland and you've got DC. You've got Maryland State Police,

1270
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:45,960
Speaker 1: you've got the Metropolitan Police Department of DC, and so

1271
01:10:46,280 --> 01:10:48,679
Speaker 1: they don't seem to be talking to each other. Now

1272
01:10:48,720 --> 01:10:51,800
Speaker 1: they are. So they've got two victims and one jurisdiction,

1273
01:10:51,920 --> 01:10:55,320
Speaker 1: two in the other. And now the FBI don't don't

1274
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:59,080
Speaker 1: don enters the scene, and this is where the media

1275
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,840
Speaker 1: really really ramps up. And this is where we get

1276
01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 1: the name of our case, which is the Freeway Phantom Killer.

1277
01:11:07,280 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 1: And that is where we need to leave this episode

1278
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:13,840
Speaker 1: because we have covered so much material and unfortunately we

1279
01:11:13,920 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 1: are not done talking about victims and things. Maybe for you,

1280
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:21,160
Speaker 1: I think it might start giving you assignments on these

1281
01:11:21,160 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 1: two parters to think about for next week. Good God,

1282
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:28,920
Speaker 1: So don't answer this now, but I want to know,

1283
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 1: without DNA confirming, without witnesses or living survivors being able

1284
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:39,400
Speaker 1: to corroborate things, how will they figure out whether or

1285
01:11:39,439 --> 01:11:42,640
Speaker 1: not these are truly part of a series or do

1286
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:45,439
Speaker 1: we have copycats because a lot of this has been

1287
01:11:45,479 --> 01:11:47,920
Speaker 1: reported in the media as we go on, and this

1288
01:11:47,960 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 1: has been going on for months and months at this point.

1289
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:53,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, okay, I've got my assignment. I will be

1290
01:11:53,880 --> 01:11:57,519
Speaker 2: a good student and be prepared for the next time

1291
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:58,599
Speaker 2: we sit down.

1292
01:11:59,160 --> 01:11:59,599
Speaker 3: Very good.

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01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:01,280
Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, Paul.

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01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:02,960
Speaker 3: See you next week all Kate, thank you.

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01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:10,040
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production for.

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01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 2: Our sources and show notes go to exactlyrightmedia dot com

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01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:15,240
Speaker 2: slash Buried Bones sources.

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01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:17,839
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Mrosi.

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01:12:18,160 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 2: Research by Alison Trumble and Kate Winkler Dawson.

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01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:23,640
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday.

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01:12:23,960 --> 01:12:26,240
Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

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01:12:26,479 --> 01:12:28,519
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

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01:12:28,760 --> 01:12:32,920
Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Danielle Kramer.

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01:12:33,160 --> 01:12:36,559
Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

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01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: buried Bones Pod.

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01:12:38,240 --> 01:12:40,799
Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

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01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:42,840
Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

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01:12:42,840 --> 01:12:44,879
Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available now.

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01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:49,240
Speaker 1: And Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked My life Solving America's

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01:12:49,240 --> 01:12:51,320
Speaker 1: Cold Cases is also available now.

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01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:55,360
Speaker 2: Listen to Barry Bones on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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01:12:55,479 --> 01:13:03,120
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts.