1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,959 Speaker 1: In February of twenty twenty two. Cassandra black Elk was 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: a young mother of three living in Bismarck, North Dakota. 3 00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:17,279 Speaker 1: Her girls were her whole world. Six year old de 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: Laiza loved school and wanted to be a biologist. One 5 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: year old a Maria already had a strong personality. Cassie 6 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 1: called her their wild child, and Starlight was the baby, 7 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:33,640 Speaker 1: just three weeks old. On the evening of February eighteenth, 8 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,520 Speaker 1: Cassie was at home with the girls and Starlight's father, Seth. 9 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 2: Eagle, chilling, hanging out with my kids. We was watching 10 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 2: a movie. It was cooking supper. 11 00:00:46,560 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: Seth left around midnight to go hang out with friends. 12 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: Cassie fed Starlight and put the two oldest girls to bed, 13 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,080 Speaker 1: Then she lay down with Starlight beside her and fell asleep. 14 00:00:57,080 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: She woke up around six in the morning to find 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: Starlight wasn't breathing. Daliza called nine one one, but it 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: was already too late. Starlight was dead, and before she 17 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,080 Speaker 1: could fully process what had happened, the police were telling 18 00:01:11,120 --> 00:01:16,119 Speaker 1: Cassie that she was under arrest for felony child neglect. 19 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 2: They were telling me, if somebody did something to Starlight, 20 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 2: somebody killed her. 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:24,679 Speaker 1: Cassie knew that wasn't true, and she had one question 22 00:01:24,760 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: for her lawyer, what does the autopsy report say? 23 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: I kept said the same, Well, what if it came 24 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: back as I wasn't at fault. And then he was 25 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,839 Speaker 2: like telling me we could deal with that later. 26 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: But by the time she got the answer, it was 27 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,959 Speaker 1: too late. Cassie was already in prison. 28 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,840 Speaker 2: I'm Cassie black Elk and I was wrongfully incarcerated for 29 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,080 Speaker 2: eleven months. 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,240 Speaker 1: From LoVa for good. This is wrongful conviction with Maggie 31 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:17,560 Speaker 1: Freeling today. Cassandra blackout O. Cassandra black Elk was born 32 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: August fourth, nineteen ninety five in Bismarck, North Dakota. She's 33 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,240 Speaker 1: a member of the Cheyenne River Sioux tribe. Cassie grew 34 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: up in Rapid City, South Dakota, the middle child of nine. 35 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 3: It was. 36 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:38,519 Speaker 2: Busy, chaotic, closest to my three little sisters. We'd always 37 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: play house school, went swimming at the Why all the time. 38 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 2: We just ran around the trailer park that we used 39 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:53,399 Speaker 2: to live in and hung out with all our friends. Yeah. 40 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: Cassie had her first daughter, Daliza at nineteen, with a 41 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: boyfriend from high school. At age twenty two, she decided 42 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 1: to move back to Bismarck to go to school. She 43 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: had plans to become a social worker. Cassie's second daughter, 44 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:12,600 Speaker 1: Amara was born in twenty twenty and then Starlight. When 45 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: was Starlight born? 46 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: January twenty fifth, twenty twenty two. 47 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:19,320 Speaker 1: How did you meet Starlight's dad? 48 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:23,520 Speaker 2: Up here hanging out with friends? Yeah? Meant the first 49 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 2: year I moved up here. 50 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:28,160 Speaker 1: Cassie and Seth Eagle moved in together and at twenty 51 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: six years old, Cassie was happy to be a stay 52 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 1: at home mom. She loved hanging out with her girls. 53 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: Seth helped to support Starlight and Cassie's two older daughters 54 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: with oil royalties he received as a member of the 55 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: Mja tribe the Mandan Hidatsa and Arikara nation. On the 56 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: evening of February eighteenth, twenty twenty two, Cassie, Seth, and 57 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: the girls were all at home together. So what do 58 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: you remember from that night? 59 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 4: Like? 60 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: How did the night start? Tell me? I guess from 61 00:03:57,840 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: the beginning. 62 00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: I don't know. We were hanging out after my oldest 63 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:06,839 Speaker 2: got back from school. We was watching a movie, we 64 00:04:06,880 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: was cooking supper barbecue chicken, steamed veggies, and mashed potatoes. 65 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: At what point you and Seth got in an argument? 66 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, well yeah, well we was kind of fighting 67 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:20,920 Speaker 2: throughout that whole day. Really. 68 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: As the evening went on, Cassie and Seth began drinking, 69 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 1: and when their fight turned physical, Cassie ended up with 70 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: a bloodied ear. Finally, Seth stormed out to go see 71 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: some friends. 72 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, he was there all the way up until I 73 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 2: don't know about midnight one. 74 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,279 Speaker 1: Or some Yeah, and what'd you do when he left? 75 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 2: Fed my daughter and laid down with them. 76 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: So when you guys go to sleep, everything was normal. 77 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: I thought it was normal. I don't know. I just 78 00:04:54,760 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 2: I didn't think I was gonna wake up too. Everything gone. 79 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 2: What do you remember waking up? 80 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 5: It's okay, Cassie, my daughter gone, she was she was 81 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:21,280 Speaker 5: stiff and cold. 82 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 2: I was freaking out. My oldest had to call nine 83 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 2: on one. 84 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 1: And then when the police got there, what happened. 85 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 2: Well, right away they were questioning me at my house. 86 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: I wasn't even with them in my house for a 87 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:47,039 Speaker 2: full ten minutes. They wanted to know what happened here. 88 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: I was trying to get a hold of someone to 89 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,040 Speaker 2: get a hold of set and they told me I 90 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 2: needed to get off my phone. They noticed I had 91 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: a bloody ear, and after that they told me to 92 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:01,239 Speaker 2: go to the police station. 93 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: And then what happens at the police station. 94 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:10,880 Speaker 2: They start questioning me. 95 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: Were they questioning or were they kind of telling you? 96 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 5: Oh? 97 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, they were telling me their story. 98 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 1: Which was what what was their story? 99 00:06:26,920 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: Somebody did something to starlight, somebody killed her. 100 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 4: So that first interrogation that she goes into is actually 101 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 4: three hours long, and you can imagine the state that 102 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 4: she was in given the timing of the interrogation. My 103 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 4: name is Jim Mayer and I'm a managing attorney with 104 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:02,520 Speaker 4: the Great North Innocence Project. The officers doing the interrogation 105 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 4: are convinced and have jumped to the conclusion that Cassie 106 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:09,800 Speaker 4: has done something to the baby. They begin their interrogation 107 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 4: by telling her that the child had bruising, that they 108 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:15,440 Speaker 4: could tell the child had some injury. They start to 109 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 4: speculate that maybe there was some kind of abusive event, 110 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 4: maybe there was shaking. They start describing the symptoms of 111 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 4: shaking baby syndrome to her and how that could have happened. 112 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 1: Remember this is just a few hours after Cassie had 113 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: found Starlight lifeless beside her. The officers telling her all 114 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:37,119 Speaker 1: this were not trained medical professionals, and the body had 115 00:07:37,160 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: not even been examined yet. 116 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 4: It sounded to me like one of those officers had 117 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:46,160 Speaker 4: recently been to a training and learned about shaken baby syndrome, 118 00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 4: which of course is a highly controversial and dubious diagnosis, 119 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 4: as any of us who work in this industry know. 120 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 4: But he started explaining to Cassie in this interrogation room 121 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 4: what happens when you shake a baby and how you know. 122 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 4: That seemed to fit the situation that she was in. 123 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 4: Couldn't have been further from the truth, but he was 124 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 4: insisting that that was probably what had happened here and 125 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 4: trying to get her to confess to it. She continued 126 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 4: throughout this interrogation to insist that there were no injuries, 127 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 4: that the baby was fine when she had given her 128 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 4: a bottle and swaddled her and put her to bed 129 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 4: around one or two in the morning, and that there 130 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 4: was no injury. 131 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: So the officers ramped up their interrogation. 132 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 4: They would try all of these techniques, like telling her 133 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 4: you didn't mean to do it whatever you did was 134 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,360 Speaker 4: an accident. You just lost control, that maybe the baby 135 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 4: was crying, maybe the baby couldn't sleep, maybe she got 136 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 4: frustrated and just lost control and shook the baby. Just 137 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 4: tell us that you're a person who needs help and 138 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 4: not an evil person, right, and that things will go 139 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 4: better for you, or they would tell her that, you know, 140 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 4: the autopsy is going to come back and it's going 141 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 4: to show there's trauma. You're much better off if you 142 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,959 Speaker 4: just tell us now what you did, it's going to 143 00:08:57,040 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 4: go better for a jury. They even told her that 144 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 4: Child Protective Services had taken her other two children and 145 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 4: that she wouldn't get them back unless she was willing 146 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 4: to say what it was she did to this baby 147 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 4: to cause its death, which of course put her in 148 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 4: an impossible situation because she didn't do anything, and she 149 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 4: knew she didn't do anything, nor had her boyfriend, and 150 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 4: so she maintained her innocence throughout this interrogation despite the 151 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 4: pressure that they put on her. 152 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: Did you start questioning yourself at any point? Were you wondering, like, 153 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: maybe maybe I did roll over on her because she 154 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: was in the bed with you, right? 155 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 2: Yeah? But no, no, because the way I had her sleeping. 156 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: She was out a slant away from me, and my 157 00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: girls were on the other side, and I woke up 158 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 2: in the same spot, literally, like the same way when 159 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 2: I went to bed. 160 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: Three days later, on February twenty second, Cassie was trying 161 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 1: charged with felony child's neglect. That same day, state medical 162 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: examiner doctor Barry Miller performed an autopsy on Starlight. The 163 00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 1: autopsy was attended by the state's attorney, Julie Lawyer, and 164 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: several officers from the Bismarck Police Department. While they were 165 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,199 Speaker 1: still awaiting the autopsy results, Cassie's case was going forward. 166 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: She was assigned to public defender James Lores. 167 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 4: And the first thing that happens is they have a 168 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 4: bail hearing that the prosecution comes in. It says, look, 169 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,560 Speaker 4: this is an infant death case. We need to set 170 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 4: bail at a high level. She couldn't meet it, so 171 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 4: she's stuck. She's behind bars, awaiting trial. She's got two 172 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 4: young children from whom she separated at this incredibly dramatic time, 173 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 4: So that's one layer of pressure that was added to her. 174 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: And I guess maybe I'm missing something, But how is 175 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: she able to be charged without even having a medical diagnosis. 176 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: Can they do that? I mean, I've never seen that. 177 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:02,439 Speaker 4: The charging documents in her case, which came out on 178 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 4: February nineteenth, what they said was, we know that she 179 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 4: was responsible for the death, but we don't yet know 180 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 4: the mechanism of the death, pending the autopsy results. So 181 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 4: it was just the you know, a perfect example of 182 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 4: a rush to a conclusion with really no solid foundation 183 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:30,200 Speaker 4: for it whatsoever, just assumptions that were made. Then, when 184 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 4: a plea deal is offered by the prosecution, her lawyer 185 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:35,640 Speaker 4: urges her to take the deal. 186 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 2: Well, he said that they were considering of two years 187 00:11:44,960 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 2: and he was going to talk to them and see 188 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 2: if he get it out to eighteen months. And that's 189 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 2: when I went to eighteen months. 190 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: That following week, her attorney was trying to rush Cassie 191 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:00,000 Speaker 1: into taking the plea because he knew that the prosecute 192 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,840 Speaker 1: was leaving for private practice in a few weeks after that. 193 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,840 Speaker 1: He said the deal might be off the table, and. 194 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 4: He says things like, you'll be out before you know it. 195 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,680 Speaker 4: You're pleading guilty. You'll get a five year sentence, but 196 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 4: you'll only serve about eighteen months and you'll be out 197 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,320 Speaker 4: before you know it. Cassie was resistant to that for 198 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 4: good reason. She kept saying, I know I didn't do 199 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,000 Speaker 4: anything to my child. I'm innocent. When can we see 200 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 4: a copy of the autopsy report? 201 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,280 Speaker 2: I kept asking him for the autopsy. I kept said 202 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: the same, Well, what if it came back as I 203 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 2: wasn't at fault. 204 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 4: Ultimately, what her lawyer says to her is, you're getting 205 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:41,960 Speaker 4: ahead of yourself for now. Just plead guilty. If the 206 00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 4: autopsy comes back favorable to you, we'll deal with that later. 207 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 1: How did that make you feel when he was like, no, no, 208 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 1: and just kind of brushed something so important aside. 209 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 2: Like it didn't matter. I don't think it mattered to anybody. 210 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:00,080 Speaker 2: How Starlight passed away. 211 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: At her lawyer's urging, Cassie finally gave in and pled 212 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: guilty to the charge of felony child's neglect. The plea 213 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: deal did not mention Starlight's death. It simply said that 214 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 1: Cassie had willfully failed to provide proper parental care or 215 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: control necessary for the physical health of her baby. She 216 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:26,080 Speaker 1: received a sentence of five years, with all but eighteen 217 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 1: months of it suspended because Seth was not the father 218 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 1: of the two older girls. They were placed in foster care. 219 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 1: Cassie was sent to the Dakota Women's Correctional Center in 220 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: New England, North Dakota. 221 00:13:40,960 --> 00:13:45,320 Speaker 2: What was prison like, Well, I don't recommend it to nobody. 222 00:13:45,920 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 2: Everybody says it's a cakewalk and what not, but it wasn't. 223 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 2: It's like how, It's just how. 224 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 1: When you first got in there, did you tell anybody 225 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: like I don't belong here. I didn't do. 226 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:01,480 Speaker 2: This, yep. I told everyone that every day. A lot 227 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 2: of girls in there just content with that life. 228 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 5: Not me. 229 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: So that's not me, it's not my life. I couldn't 230 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 2: relate to half their stories. I just didn't know what 231 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:14,720 Speaker 2: to say to half of them. I was always just 232 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 2: angry because I felt like I shouldn't have been in jail. 233 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 2: Everybody heard it from me. Oh no, I lost my daughter. 234 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: None of that made sense, none of it was okay. 235 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 2: So I was always mad. 236 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 4: So here she is, she's pled guilty, she's been sentenced, 237 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 4: she's in prison serving her sentence, and her lawyer had 238 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:39,080 Speaker 4: essentially told her that he couldn't help her get the 239 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 4: autopsy report at that point, but she didn't give up. 240 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 4: She kept working on her own to get a copy 241 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 4: of it. 242 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,400 Speaker 1: Cassie called the Medical Examiner's office in Bismarck over and 243 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:56,240 Speaker 1: over from prison, asking for the report. Finally she was 244 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: able to fill out an online form to have it 245 00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: mailed to her, and then she waited and waited. Three 246 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: months went by, and. 247 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 4: Then eventually she gets that copy, I think sometime in 248 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 4: July of twenty twenty two, where she gets to read, 249 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 4: you know, the story of what actually happened to her 250 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 4: baby for the first time. 251 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: You're listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. You can 252 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 1: listen to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts 253 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:42,680 Speaker 1: one week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava 254 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 1: for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Doctor Miller's final autopsy 255 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 1: report was dated May twenty seventh, twenty twenty two, two 256 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,720 Speaker 1: weeks after cast entered her plea, and it confirmed what 257 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: she had always known, which she had tried to tell 258 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: everyone that she hadn't done anything to hurt her baby. 259 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:14,600 Speaker 1: There was no evidence of neglect, trauma, or abuse. Three 260 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 1: week old Starlight had died of unexplained sudden infant death syndrome. 261 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: Do you remember that moment when you got it and 262 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: reading it. 263 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I felt a whole lot of relief, but didn't 264 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 2: really do much. So I was just sat there crying 265 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 2: because there was nothing I could do. I was already 266 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 2: sent in prison. 267 00:16:43,560 --> 00:16:47,479 Speaker 6: My name's Adam Martin. I'm ten years sober, formally incarcerated, 268 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 6: have multiple felonies on my background. 269 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: Adam is the founder and CEO of the F five Project, 270 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 1: a nonprofit based in Fargo, North Dakota. It provides the 271 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: formally incarcerated with support and re entry resources. 272 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 6: You know, all my friends were either dying or going 273 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 6: to prison, and so after the last friend had went 274 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 6: to prison and then the couple had overdosed off fetanol 275 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 6: or heroin or whatever, I just felt like I wanted 276 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 6: to do something different than what was being done. There 277 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 6: was no real plan to start it. I just started 278 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,399 Speaker 6: going into the jail and trying to help guys that 279 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 6: were being released, really just through storytelling. I didn't have 280 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 6: any services or resources or anything. And then what happened 281 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 6: is is that the guys started calling me when they 282 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 6: were getting out of prison or jail, and I didn't 283 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 6: have anything, so I just let him sleep on my 284 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 6: couch and then it turned into seven years later. We 285 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 6: have over sixty employees in that we're in nine different 286 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 6: cities and have three transitional houses or three cities that 287 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 6: we have transitional houses in Okay. 288 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: So what is far going North Dakota, Like, I mean, 289 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:57,480 Speaker 1: maybe tell me a little bit about the demographic. I mean, 290 00:17:57,520 --> 00:18:00,359 Speaker 1: we know Cassie is indigenous, so tell me about it. 291 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,320 Speaker 6: Yeah, So the landscape is, you know, obviously it's like 292 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:07,240 Speaker 6: eighty five percent white. We have there's not even a 293 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 6: million people in North Dakota, Okay, So there's like seven 294 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:14,439 Speaker 6: hundred and seventy thousand of that seven seventy to about 295 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 6: two hundred and forty thousand identifies having a criminal conviction. 296 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 6: And so we're about twenty eight percent of our general 297 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 6: population identify as that, which is about three percent higher 298 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 6: than the national average. Of that Native Americans or Indigenous 299 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 6: people account for around five percent of the population, but 300 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 6: they account for twenty five percent of the prison population. 301 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 6: And so a lot of the stuff that we see 302 00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 6: nationally trending is similar here, but just with different groups 303 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:45,160 Speaker 6: and then higher percentages. 304 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: Adam's work with F five led him to joining the 305 00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 1: board of the Great North Innocence Project, where he met 306 00:18:52,240 --> 00:18:55,840 Speaker 1: Jim in August of twenty twenty two. They went together 307 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 1: to speak about their organizations at the New England Women's Prison. 308 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,240 Speaker 6: And so this young Native American woman came up to 309 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 6: me and she was very timid, and she couldn't even 310 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 6: look me in the eye. She was shaking, she was teary, 311 00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,399 Speaker 6: teary eyed, and she just all she said to me 312 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 6: was I don't belong here. 313 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: Cassie told Adam that she was in prison for killing 314 00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: her baby, but she was innocent. And then she told 315 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: him about the autopsy report. 316 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,679 Speaker 6: And I've been in court enough to know that autopsy 317 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 6: reports are a big deal, right, And the fact that 318 00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 6: it came out after she was convicted sent off a 319 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,199 Speaker 6: red flag. And I was like, okay, well what did 320 00:19:41,240 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 6: it say? And she said that my baby died of SIDS. 321 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 6: And so I introduced her right there to James. And 322 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 6: when we left the prison, James came up to me 323 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,040 Speaker 6: and he was like, we have a case. She has 324 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 6: a case, and we're going to get her released. 325 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 4: In a way, her story was just so simple and straightforward. 326 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 4: You know, you tell a lot of these stories and 327 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 4: you see how convoluted they can be. Cassie's story is 328 00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 4: not convoluted at all. There was a tragic death of 329 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 4: her baby that could not have been prevented by anyone. 330 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: In December of twenty twenty two, Jim moved to vacate 331 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: Cassie's conviction, citing the autopsy report as new evidence, and 332 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: also that Cassie's attorney had provided ineffective representation by advising 333 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 1: her to take the plea and evidentiary hearing was held 334 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:51,840 Speaker 1: on January nineteenth, twenty twenty three, before Judge Daniel Borgin. 335 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 4: We presented the testimony from the medical examiner herself. She 336 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 4: testified about the fact that there was no trauma in 337 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 4: this case, that there was no evidence that the death 338 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 4: resulted from something Cassie did or did not do. 339 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: Doctor Miller told the court that she would have been 340 00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:11,159 Speaker 1: willing to share her preliminary findings with the defense prior 341 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: to the final report, but Cassie's defense attorney never asked 342 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,199 Speaker 1: for it. The prosecution, however, knew all along what it 343 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 1: would say. 344 00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 4: One of the claims we made in our petition was 345 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 4: that the state's attorney was present at the autopsy, so 346 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 4: she knew that the autopsy was not showing any signs 347 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 4: of trauma, and yet she managed to extract a guilty 348 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 4: plea without disclosing what she knew. 349 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: But in addition to the evidence they had, Jim knew 350 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: that in order to present the most effective case, Cassie 351 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: would have to testify. 352 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 4: And I was a little nervous about telling her that 353 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 4: because she was so quiet and soft spoken. I thought 354 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 4: that would scare her. And she said something like, I'm ready, 355 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 4: I can do that, and I just thought, Wow, She's 356 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,200 Speaker 4: come a long way in the few months that I've 357 00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 4: known her in terms of her confidence, and part of 358 00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 4: that was just that she was ready to tell her story. 359 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: So Cassie took the stand and told Judge Borgan everything 360 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: that had happened. 361 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 4: The conversations with her defense lawyer, where she's professing her 362 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,560 Speaker 4: innocence and saying, I want the autopsy. I want the autopsy, 363 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 4: and he's telling her, just take this plea. We'll deal 364 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 4: with that later. She tells that entire story, and her 365 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,679 Speaker 4: testimony was very, very credible, which the judge found and 366 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 4: that was a big reason why he granted relief. 367 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: Cassie was released from prison the next day pending a 368 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:32,400 Speaker 1: new trial. 369 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 4: And one of the North Dakota Supreme Court justices actually 370 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 4: wrote separately to say that with the new evidence of 371 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:45,760 Speaker 4: the autopsy report, it's very likely that she would be 372 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 4: acquitted at trial as a matter of law, because they 373 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 4: just didn't have the evidence. 374 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 1: At that point. Jim says, the state had a decision 375 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: to make. 376 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 4: Do they now let the case go or do they 377 00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:59,360 Speaker 4: choose to recharge her. Again, very disappointed to learn from 378 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 4: them that they and to continue to prosecute. So they 379 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 4: shifted their theory to say that because Cassie had been 380 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 4: drinking alcohol that night, regardless of whether that had anything 381 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 4: to do with her baby's death, that in and of itself, 382 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:20,360 Speaker 4: drinking alcohol while you have children at home is felony 383 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 4: child neglect, And so they pursued the case on that theory. 384 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 1: Has that ever been a precedent that was set before 385 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: drinking equals felony child neglect? 386 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 4: I have not seen an example where that fact alone 387 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 4: was constituting felony child neglect. That really makes you wonder 388 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 4: in terms of a charging decision, whether a middle class 389 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,719 Speaker 4: white mother who'd had a few glasses of wine at 390 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 4: the ballet and was still under the influence when she 391 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 4: relieved the nanny would be charged I seriously doubt it. 392 00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:57,200 Speaker 4: I spoke to a lot of other defense lawyers about this, 393 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 4: you know, in other states around the country, and what 394 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:05,639 Speaker 4: I heard mostly was your client's not white, is she m? 395 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 4: I said, no, she isn't. So I guess sometimes drinking 396 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 4: while being non white and in charge of children could 397 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 4: get in some more trouble than other folks would see. 398 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 4: I think some assumptions were made based on who Cassie 399 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 4: is and what she looks like, and what community she 400 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:34,199 Speaker 4: comes from. I also think that on all sides of 401 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 4: the issue, people didn't think that it was such a 402 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 4: big deal for Cassie to go to prison for eighteen months. 403 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 4: I mean, even her own lawyer told her something to 404 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 4: the effect of you'll be home before you know it. 405 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 4: She'd never been in prison before. This was a totally 406 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,040 Speaker 4: new experience for her, so the idea that they wouldn't 407 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 4: be such a big deal to go to prison for 408 00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:55,920 Speaker 4: eighteen months is just shocking. 409 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: After Judge Morgan's ruling, this date continued with its efforts 410 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: to prosecute Cassie, but when the judge ordered them to 411 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 1: identify specific conduct from Cassie that constituted felony child neglect, 412 00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: they were unable to do so because she wasn't guilty, 413 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 1: So on October nineteenth, twenty twenty three, the state moved 414 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:22,639 Speaker 1: to dismiss the charges. Cassie was finally free. Adam remember 415 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,040 Speaker 1: seeing her united with her two daughters. 416 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 6: I got a picture of when they were all hanging 417 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 6: out and they were hugging her, and I just, I 418 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 6: just I was emotional wreck. Just the moment of joy 419 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 6: that that she's feeling at that moment. Enclosure was it was. 420 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 6: It was inspiring for sure. 421 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 1: Since then, Adam and f five have been helping Cassie 422 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: to rebuild her life outside of prison. 423 00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 6: I've often played out the scenario like what person would 424 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 6: it be the hardest for in re entry? And my 425 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 6: opinion is, actually, here native American female that's being released 426 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 6: from prison that has a bunch of felonies on her 427 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 6: background is by far going to be the most stigmatized. 428 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,520 Speaker 4: You know, one of the worst things that happened to 429 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:17,120 Speaker 4: her was that when she was arrested, she was absolutely 430 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 4: savaged in the Bismarck media. You know, her mugshot was 431 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 4: plastered on the front pages of papers with a headline 432 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 4: suggesting that she was a baby killer. Right that she'd 433 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 4: been arrested for killing her own child, and that was 434 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 4: so awful for her to see that and to have 435 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 4: that be the story about her, to have her name 436 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 4: associated with that, I think it started to feel empowering 437 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 4: for her to take back her name and take back 438 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 4: her own narrative. 439 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 6: And so through all that stuff that she's been through, 440 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 6: that negative mindset that exists is basically just one big 441 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 6: ball of trauma. And so if your listeners are you know, 442 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 6: praying people, or if they're you know, thoughtful people, just 443 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:01,160 Speaker 6: having her in your thoughts and just given sending her 444 00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 6: good vibes and good prayers is going to be. She's 445 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,720 Speaker 6: going to need it because she's got a long journey 446 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 6: ahead of her. 447 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:15,280 Speaker 1: Eventually, Cassie hopes to return to Rapid City and to school. 448 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: For now, she's just enjoying spending time with Dealeza and 449 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 1: em Maria. She says that being separated for all those 450 00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: months took a toll on their relationship, and she's working 451 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: to rebuild that bond, and Cassie says, all three of 452 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: them mean time to heal from losing Starlight. 453 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 2: I'm traumatized. It's traumatized and losing my baby, but I 454 00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:48,080 Speaker 2: went through a lot more with it. Like even my babies, 455 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 2: my three year old and my eight year old, are affected, 456 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: not just me. 457 00:27:53,359 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: How often do you think about her, Cassie every day? 458 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yep. 459 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:05,200 Speaker 3: I see my two oldest and I always think of 460 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 3: how would have been with all three. We all still 461 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:19,520 Speaker 3: talk about my daughter. 462 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 2: My oldest always talks about because she remembers how she was. 463 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: She was a calm little baby. My three year old 464 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 2: she doesn't understand it. She kind of makes me laugh. 465 00:28:32,920 --> 00:28:37,080 Speaker 2: She thinks she carries my starlight in her stomach. Whenever 466 00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: she gets really fool or she's done eating a snack, 467 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: she'll say Starlight's making her stomach hurt because. 468 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:46,000 Speaker 1: It looks like she's pregnant. 469 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, she's really funny with all that. Or like three 470 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 2: peas in a pod. Yeah, I always tease everybody and 471 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,360 Speaker 2: say we're cool out in public. We'll get along, all 472 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: three of us, but we get back in our house, 473 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 2: it's chaos disastery. 474 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: If you'd like to help support Cassie and her daughters 475 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: as they restart their life together, there's a GoFundMe for her. 476 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: We'll have that link in the episode description. And if 477 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: you'd like to know more about the Great North Innocence 478 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 1: Project and the F five Project. Please check out their 479 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: links on the page as well. Thank you for listening 480 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please support your local 481 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,360 Speaker 1: innocence organizations and go to the in the episode description 482 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: to see how you can help. I'd like to thank 483 00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: our executive producers Jason Flam, Jeff Kempler, and Kevin Wortis, 484 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: as well as senior producer Annie Chelsea, producer Kathleen Fink, 485 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: story editor Hannah Beal, and researcher Shelby Sorels. Mixing and 486 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,200 Speaker 1: sound design are by Jackie Pauley, with additional production by 487 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,720 Speaker 1: Jeff Cleiburn and Connor Hall. The music is by three 488 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow 489 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 1: us on all social media platforms at Lava for Good 490 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,200 Speaker 1: and at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on 491 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:38,360 Speaker 1: all platforms at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling 492 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association 493 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: with Signal Company Number one