Speaker 1: When you get everything you thought you wanted and you
Speaker 1: still feel empty.
Speaker 2: You realized, Wow, that was not what I was supposed
Speaker 2: to be chasing. This is one of the most remarkable,
Speaker 2: amazing stories in hip hop.
Speaker 1: Russ I know whatever I want, what I want, I
Speaker 1: love it.
Speaker 2: I thought, I'm never going to get depressed. What does
Speaker 2: that even mean?
Speaker 1: I don't need Any'll look and it's like, deep down
Speaker 1: you wanted everyone though. How strong of a man are
Speaker 1: you if you're scared to face yourself straight up?
Speaker 3: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite
Speaker 3: you to join this community to hear more interviews that
Speaker 3: will help you become happier, healthier, and more healed. All
Speaker 3: I want you to do is click on the subscribe button.
Speaker 3: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your comments,
Speaker 3: and we're just getting started. I can't wait to go
Speaker 3: on this journey with you. Thank you so much for subscribing.
Speaker 3: It means the world to me.
Speaker 2: The best selling author in the most The number one
Speaker 2: healthy wellness podcast Purpose with Jay Shetty.
Speaker 3: Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose, the number one
Speaker 3: health podcast in the world. Thanks to each and every
Speaker 3: one of you that come back every week. To listen,
Speaker 3: learn and grow. Our mission and community is all about
Speaker 3: making the world happier, healthier, and more healed. And today's
Speaker 3: guest is someone who is a favorite of yours, of
Speaker 3: the community. He came on once before, you loved it
Speaker 3: this The clips from that episode are going viral every
Speaker 3: week on TikTok. We can't keep up with it. We
Speaker 3: just keep sending stuff to each other. I've been so
Speaker 3: excited for this moment to have him back on the show,
Speaker 3: because when I have an instant connection with someone where
Speaker 3: you feel like you get along, you vibe, it's so
Speaker 3: rare that you want to make it happen again and again.
Speaker 3: We waited like two to three years, but here we are.
Speaker 3: I'm welcoming back. The One and only Russ. Russ is
Speaker 3: a thirty year old multi platinum rapper, singer, songwriter, producer,
Speaker 3: best selling author. Russ proved that he didn't need a
Speaker 3: major label to surpass over ten billion streams on Spotify
Speaker 3: and Apple Music. Get on Forbes twenty nineteen thirty under
Speaker 3: thirty and make the Forbes Cash Kings at number twenty
Speaker 3: for most earned sellout arenas across the US and around
Speaker 3: the globe. I've become one of the most popular engage
Speaker 3: rappers and thought leaders in the world right now. If
Speaker 3: you haven't read it already, we talked about this last time.
Speaker 3: Russ has self help book It's All in Your Head.
Speaker 3: I highly recommend. And now we're talking about is new
Speaker 3: album which is out now called Santiago. Please welcome to
Speaker 3: the show, the One and Only Russ.
Speaker 2: Wow, what intro? What's going on here?
Speaker 3: Man?
Speaker 2: You have to do all of that stuff.
Speaker 1: And it's such an interesting thing hearing like intros like that.
Speaker 1: I guess it snaps me into like being seven and
Speaker 1: being nineteen when all this was still just like a
Speaker 1: complete fantasy. It's hard to feel it. It's hard to
Speaker 1: feel the success of it. And this is what I've like,
Speaker 1: we're just gonna dive right in, but it's hard to
Speaker 1: feel the success of it because a lot of me
Speaker 1: struggles with like just not feeling good enough for myself,
Speaker 1: so like none of it registers, you know, And that's
Speaker 1: what I've been working on, and that's kind of what
Speaker 1: Santiago addresses. A lot is sort of this like, yeah,
Speaker 1: made the Forbes this and plaques, but it didn't move
Speaker 1: the needle, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's hard. How do you go about that? I mean,
Speaker 3: like you, I mean you dived in, So don't blame me. Now,
Speaker 3: you know, when you think about the idea of being
Speaker 3: enough for yourself, and how do you even start to
Speaker 3: comprehend what that even means? Because I think, as you
Speaker 3: were saying, when you're young, yeah, being enough just means
Speaker 3: what being enough means to the world. Like you're like, oh,
Speaker 3: if I get those sneakers, then I'll be enough because
Speaker 3: my friends will think I'm cool. Or if you're into academics,
Speaker 3: you'll be like, oh, if I get this grade, my
Speaker 3: parents will think that I made it. And then all
Speaker 3: of a sudden, none of those things add up. So
Speaker 3: how do you even go about thinking about what being
Speaker 3: enough means, especially in a culture that's comparing and always
Speaker 3: putting you up against other people.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so hard for me because I think it
Speaker 1: does start in childhood, and I think it started with,
Speaker 1: you know, wanting to meet the standard that my dad said,
Speaker 1: and you know my dad, who I love him, and
Speaker 1: disclaimer before like this interview goes more, It's like I
Speaker 1: love my parents and they have done I think a
Speaker 1: great job, and I don't blame them for anything. There's
Speaker 1: just realities that have happened that, like, you know, there's
Speaker 1: experiences that I have that I now have to deal
Speaker 1: with and learn from, et cetera. But my dad's standard
Speaker 1: was perfection a lot of times, you know, and he
Speaker 1: was very critical and so for me, you know, his
Speaker 1: metric it was impossible to me. I ended up adopting
Speaker 1: it as my own, you know. And so the inner
Speaker 1: voice for a long time it was my dad's inner
Speaker 1: voice of you know, that's not good enough. Nah, you know,
Speaker 1: you got a ninety two on the test. If you
Speaker 1: would have studied, you got a hundred. But it's still
Speaker 1: in a but you know, little things like that are
Speaker 1: shown him music early on and career stuff and just
Speaker 1: in general, right, And but that inner voice that used
Speaker 1: to be his became my own inner voice. So now
Speaker 1: like it becomes this sort of of inner critic that
Speaker 1: when I go platinum, it's like it doesn't do it.
Speaker 1: Maybe double platinum will maybe triple Oh how much money
Speaker 1: did you make?
Speaker 2: Ten oh?
Speaker 1: Maybe eleven million will make you feel good? And so
Speaker 1: you keep chasing the next thing, thinking that's what's going
Speaker 1: to make you feel good about yourself. And I think
Speaker 1: to reference, like the Rick Rubin interview. I think he
Speaker 1: mentioned something where it's like, you get the number one album,
Speaker 1: you get all this stuff, and it doesn't do what
Speaker 1: you wanted it to do, and you feel emptier than ever.
Speaker 1: And I think that's kind of the place I got
Speaker 1: to was I got the money, the house, to this
Speaker 1: and whatever, and that's how you know there's really something missing,
Speaker 1: because how do you get all that and you still
Speaker 1: don't feel good? And it's a really empty feeling because
Speaker 1: most people in the world think that the reason why
Speaker 1: they're not happy and not feeling enough is all these
Speaker 1: things that they'll probably never get. And it's kind of
Speaker 1: this beautiful, blissfully ignorant place to live because you just
Speaker 1: get to like always have this idea that nah, I know,
Speaker 1: like I'm gonna keep going towards this, and I know
Speaker 1: this is what's gonna give me happiness, even though you'll
Speaker 1: probably never get it right. Most people won't ever see.
Speaker 2: A million dollars or whatever.
Speaker 1: But for the people who get in by and I
Speaker 1: want no sympathy for like, oh, we don't feel bad
Speaker 1: for you.
Speaker 2: You're a millionaire, get over it.
Speaker 1: But it's like when you get everything you thought you
Speaker 1: wanted and you still feel empty. You realize that, wow,
Speaker 1: that was not what I was supposed to be chasing,
Speaker 1: and there's a bigger hole here, and now I need
Speaker 1: to grow down, you know, and I need to look
Speaker 1: internal because external didn't do it.
Speaker 2: And that's what Oasis is.
Speaker 3: What about on the album, right, Yeah, Oasis is the
Speaker 3: closest track to that feeling, or.
Speaker 1: So Oasis was sort of this fool's paradise is what
Speaker 1: the idea behind that song was. It was like I
Speaker 1: got the house, the life. Everything on surface looked like, okay,
Speaker 1: you did it, and internally though, I was still a mess.
Speaker 1: I was joking with you, you know, off camera, like
Speaker 1: last time we talked, you know, I was thirty pounds
Speaker 1: over Wait, it was just proportioned nicely, so it didn't
Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't like too big in any one place.
Speaker 1: But I was thirty pounds overweight. I was drinking too much,
Speaker 1: I was eating too much. I had no discipline over
Speaker 1: my thoughts, my eating habits. I had no discipline over
Speaker 1: my sexual energy, things like that. So it was really
Speaker 1: like I was a glutton, you know. But the way
Speaker 1: that is dressed up sometimes you're a rock star you're
Speaker 1: a king, you know, And so oasis is about on surface. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're eating good, you're you know, you're you're gaining weight,
Speaker 1: but because you're getting money and you're eating good and
Speaker 1: you're sleeping with random women and drinking. But it's all
Speaker 1: good because look, another plaque just came in, and more
Speaker 1: money came in, another sold out show, and it was
Speaker 1: sort of poking Like that whole song is sort of
Speaker 1: like poking fun at me because I'm in my little oasis.
Speaker 1: I'm distracted by like, look at my house, look at
Speaker 1: my life?
Speaker 3: What?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: I love what you just said. You're like you're distracted, yeah,
Speaker 3: by the gold. Yeah, and you're distracted by the shining
Speaker 3: lights and the bright things and the plaques. When you're
Speaker 3: that distracted, how do you open up your eyes? Like
Speaker 3: how do you even get to a point now where
Speaker 3: you're able to look back and go? I was distracted.
Speaker 3: Now I'm a bit more awake, and I'm working on
Speaker 3: this stuff because I can imagine that it gets so loud.
Speaker 3: You're a rock star, you're a king, you're all these things,
Speaker 3: and then all of a sudden you've got to kind
Speaker 3: of like quiet that down and go. But I'm still
Speaker 3: not happy. How do you get that breakthrough? Because I
Speaker 3: feel like we're all the best AT's setting ourselves up
Speaker 3: for failure. Yeah, and we're all the best at avoiding
Speaker 3: advice when it's good. Like I know when I'm wrong
Speaker 3: because when my wife says something and I know she's right,
Speaker 3: and I don't want to admit it because I know
Speaker 3: she's right, and that's what. But it's that awareness piece
Speaker 3: is so hard. How did you what was the moment
Speaker 3: for you? Because you are killing it, you're still killing it.
Speaker 3: You looked well then to me, you looked well to
Speaker 3: me today like you're great, right, So, and I really
Speaker 3: enjoyed your company last time and I'm enjoying your company
Speaker 3: this time. So externally, yeah, you could argue, well, what's
Speaker 3: going on?
Speaker 2: As men, we get good at masking it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's part of like, you know, I have a
Speaker 1: long answer for this, but go and go for it.
Speaker 1: First of all, therapy is kind of what like not
Speaker 1: woke me up, but it helped. But something I learned
Speaker 1: in therapy is this idea that you know, society measures
Speaker 1: a man based off of how much they can carry,
Speaker 1: how far they can carry it, and how alone they
Speaker 1: can carry it. And I think for a lot of men,
Speaker 1: we have become professional hiders of our pain. And so
Speaker 1: while I was quote unquote distracted, what woke me up
Speaker 1: to what was going on was that there was psychological
Speaker 1: warfare and internal chaos constantly anyway, you know, I like,
Speaker 1: I just kept pushing it down, pushing it down. But
Speaker 1: I knew it was there because I was pushing it down,
Speaker 1: and it just got to a point where I just
Speaker 1: had a breakdown one day. It just you push it
Speaker 1: down enough and at some point you can't push it anymore,
Speaker 1: and it, you know, overflows in it. And what I
Speaker 1: learned is when you're burying it, burying it, bearing it,
Speaker 1: when it does finally just explode, it's always going to be.
Speaker 2: At the worst time.
Speaker 1: And that time came right before a European tour that
Speaker 1: I had scheduled, and I had to cancel it because
Speaker 1: I was like my body and spirit and mind just
Speaker 1: shut down. I just couldn't even do it. I couldn't
Speaker 1: even like go through the motions of acting like I
Speaker 1: could perform. And you know, through therapy and talking every week,
Speaker 1: you know, and really really being vulnerable and being honest
Speaker 1: with my therapist, which I couldn't wait for. Like, getting
Speaker 1: a therapist has been at the top of my to
Speaker 1: do list for like four years, and I just never did.
Speaker 1: I never got around to it because I just always,
Speaker 1: once again was like, do I really need one?
Speaker 2: To look how good my life is? Like nah, I
Speaker 2: think I'm dripping.
Speaker 1: But it just got to this point, man, where I
Speaker 1: was like, I need to talk to someone because I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm going insane. It's just been so helpful
Speaker 1: because I'm like I want to figure out what's going
Speaker 1: on internally.
Speaker 2: So it's like, well, I don't know how to feel,
Speaker 2: so let's act like it doesn't exist.
Speaker 3: You know. I'm so glad you raised this because I've
Speaker 3: been looking for the person I'm about to introduce a
Speaker 3: conversation that I've been trying to find the right person
Speaker 3: to have it with, and it just clicked me in
Speaker 3: this moment that you're that person, like literally, and I
Speaker 3: think it's such an important conversation that I've been trying
Speaker 3: to navigate. I have it offline a lot, but I
Speaker 3: haven't really had it online, so this will be the
Speaker 3: first time that I talk about it here. But it's like,
Speaker 3: you just raised that as a man especially we're good
Speaker 3: at masking it. And I think men in today's society,
Speaker 3: being a man in today's society is such an interesting time.
Speaker 3: And you come across to me as you know, like
Speaker 3: you're and you can describe in your own sense, but
Speaker 3: you're a confident man. You know you're a man's man.
Speaker 3: I'd say as well, like, I don't know.
Speaker 2: How you see yourself. That's why I don't know how
Speaker 2: you see yourself.
Speaker 3: I was going to ask you because you you so
Speaker 3: confidently are like, hey, man, I need to find help.
Speaker 2: I went to therapy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but at the same time, you're a rapper on
Speaker 3: stage is like up in like the best bass and
Speaker 3: so I'm like, when you look at that paradox, I
Speaker 3: love that because I'm thinking about what is it that
Speaker 3: you think men are struggling with most and maybe it's
Speaker 3: even for your own friends, the people you hang out with,
Speaker 3: Like what do you think men are struggling within today's society?
Speaker 3: Because I don't feel we talk about that enough with
Speaker 3: like what the struggle is?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I mean so much, But I think
Speaker 1: I think men are struggling with being in tune with
Speaker 1: their own emotions and feeling safe and feeling like they
Speaker 1: have permission from themselves to feel what they're feeling because
Speaker 1: society has told them get over it effectively, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think for me, that's what I did for
Speaker 1: the you know, for the most part. And I think
Speaker 1: my generation let alone, like generations before me, like we
Speaker 1: all saw our dads probably just like get over it
Speaker 1: and figure it out, and you know, brush brush the dirt.
Speaker 2: Off and keep going. And that's what I did.
Speaker 1: And I would just put little trickles of what I
Speaker 1: was feeling in the music.
Speaker 2: Like it's so funny, you know.
Speaker 1: When I had that breakdown, when I finally just was
Speaker 1: honest with myself and got a therapist, I would go
Speaker 1: back and listen to old songs, like songs like Nobody
Speaker 1: Knows or songs like All to You, and it's like
Speaker 1: these were like such cries for help that I think
Speaker 1: made me feel more insane because I would put them
Speaker 1: out and they just became songs, you know, and it's
Speaker 1: sort of downplayed what was really going on, because it's
Speaker 1: like I take a very vulnerable, real emotion of sadness
Speaker 1: and pain and confusion and feeling lost and don't know
Speaker 1: what to do and turn it into two and a
Speaker 1: half minutes of music and now it just becomes numbers
Speaker 1: on a screen and streams.
Speaker 2: And how loud is it at the shows?
Speaker 1: And I forget, fans forget, people forget, but most importantly
Speaker 1: I forget that, Oh no, like this was like really
Speaker 1: what I was going through?
Speaker 2: This isn't just like a lullaby. Yeah, I think you're right.
Speaker 3: I feel like when I talk to people, I feel
Speaker 3: like men are feeling a lot of pressure to be
Speaker 3: a lot of things, to be successful, to have it together,
Speaker 3: to have some emotional maturity, figured out their mental health.
Speaker 3: And again, you know, every gender has their own pressures
Speaker 3: that come with it, but I think I know a
Speaker 3: lot of men who feel scared to share that pressure
Speaker 3: because they feel like you said that they shouldn't have it,
Speaker 3: like they're not allowed to have that pressure.
Speaker 2: I think you're one of.
Speaker 3: The few music guys that has found a way of
Speaker 3: intertwining mental health and music in a way that it's
Speaker 3: not cheesy and it's not like corny, and it's not
Speaker 3: like it comes across like when I listen to you,
Speaker 3: I'm just like, God, that's a bar that's like, you know,
Speaker 3: you can appreciate it just because it's good music. And
Speaker 3: then knowing that you have this conscious side to yourself.
Speaker 3: Was that like always at the forefront of when you
Speaker 3: got into music or was it something that evolved with
Speaker 3: time because of your journey, Because I think it's quite
Speaker 3: it's quite a hard balance to talk about meaningful stuff
Speaker 3: in a way that doesn't come across as cheesy and corny.
Speaker 3: So how do how have you found a way of
Speaker 3: being able to do that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I always was looking for answers, you know,
Speaker 1: And I think I always as a consumer of music,
Speaker 1: I always like substance and lyrics and things that I
Speaker 1: could you know, things that meant something, you know, things
Speaker 1: that maybe could help me. And as an artist when
Speaker 1: I wanted to make my own I was trying to
Speaker 1: find answers. Like my creative side was trying to piece
Speaker 1: together these other sides of me, like what was going
Speaker 1: on with my family, with my friends, with my relationship,
Speaker 1: with my career. Like the creative side of me would
Speaker 1: come in and be like, maybe this means that.
Speaker 2: Maybe what you're feeling means this, maybe.
Speaker 1: You know, And like like I said, there's like all
Speaker 1: these little like easter eggs. I guess throughout my catalog
Speaker 1: of me trying to figure it out. And so I
Speaker 1: think I was just naturally an am naturally a curious
Speaker 1: person and an ambitious person, and so like ambitious in
Speaker 1: the sense that I really want to figure out what
Speaker 1: is going on with me, Like I want to know
Speaker 1: why I think the way I think, where that came from,
Speaker 1: and I think in the past, it's funny when you're
Speaker 1: like you're a confident man, etc.
Speaker 2: Etc.
Speaker 1: I was omnipotent, and I've learned that that's not confidence.
Speaker 2: You know, that's insecurity.
Speaker 1: And you know I because I mean, this is so
Speaker 1: so multilayered. But it's funny your shirts as imperfections because
Speaker 1: it really stems from me being a perfectionist, right, So
Speaker 1: like me being a perfectionist, there's no room for me
Speaker 1: to not be right, there's no room for me to
Speaker 1: not know, like not act like I know everything and
Speaker 1: what's going on. And I got being a perfectionist from
Speaker 1: like the standard that my dad said, which ended up
Speaker 1: becoming my own standard. So early on in my career,
Speaker 1: I had this omnipotence where like I knew everything, everything
Speaker 1: I was doing was right, and I felt like I
Speaker 1: had to act like that because if you're a perfectionist,
Speaker 1: there is no room for criticism. Perfectionists are trying to
Speaker 1: run from criticism, and help is coded as criticism to
Speaker 1: a perfectionist. So I didn't want any help, and if
Speaker 1: you I had to help, I took it as a
Speaker 1: critique and it threatened my idea of being a perfectionist.
Speaker 3: Wow, you know, like I'm trying to figure out the answers. So, like, dude,
Speaker 3: one thing you said to me last time. I've quoted
Speaker 3: this so many times in interviews when I get asked
Speaker 3: questions about like, oh, what was one of your favorite takeaways,
Speaker 3: and it's from our interview, and it's you said that
Speaker 3: when you sometimes get in the studio. At that time,
Speaker 3: you were like, I get rid of all my friends. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so I can be in there alone and make weird
Speaker 3: sounds that I wouldn't make when people are in the
Speaker 3: room because I might be scared of what they think.
Speaker 3: And I've said that to so many people, and everyone's
Speaker 3: always like quite blown away or taken aback because I
Speaker 3: guess it's not a common thing that artists do. And
Speaker 3: it stayed with me for so long. But I was
Speaker 3: interested by what you just said, Like how did your
Speaker 3: immediate I guess your immediate circle. I'm assuming you're around
Speaker 3: people that you love, but how do you think? Then
Speaker 3: the widest circle responds to you saying things like I
Speaker 3: need help, therapy is good for you, and be like
Speaker 3: you know, like do you have do you feel like?
Speaker 3: The wider circle goes automatically like do you think the
Speaker 3: world's got to a place now where we're like, yes, Russ,
Speaker 3: that makes sense, You're right? Or do you still le
Speaker 3: people around you going no, you don't need therapy, man,
Speaker 3: you just need to go smoke or blow some cash
Speaker 3: or like yeah, because you come from the rap music world,
Speaker 3: I wonder what do you hear?
Speaker 1: I think my friends, like my immediate circle. My friends
Speaker 1: were all very supportive. My family was supportive as well,
Speaker 1: but they're obviously like, what's going on because my identity
Speaker 1: has been attached when it comes to my family, my
Speaker 1: identity has been attached to helping them, you know. That's
Speaker 1: how I felt safe. That was the role I played.
Speaker 1: And I've never asked for help. I've never received help.
Speaker 1: I've never come off like I needed help. And so
Speaker 1: when they saw that I needed therapy, I'm canceling tour
Speaker 1: it's like nine one one in my house, you know,
Speaker 1: as far as like my family and so they were
Speaker 1: just like really concerned. But I think as far as
Speaker 1: the world's concerned, I do think the world is more
Speaker 1: open and receptive to the idea of men needing help
Speaker 1: and that's okay. And even if they're not open to it,
Speaker 1: that is naturally where this is going. Like, I just
Speaker 1: feel like the pendulum has to swing at some point.
Speaker 2: And this whole idea.
Speaker 1: That men have to just be like you know, military
Speaker 1: men who show nothing, no emotions and like figure it
Speaker 1: out and don't ask for help and we do it ourselves.
Speaker 2: It's like that is not sustainable.
Speaker 1: You know, it's just not Men need to communicate and
Speaker 1: collaborate with each other and you know, not feel so alone.
Speaker 3: How have you found the reaction to that from like
Speaker 3: straight women? Do straight women find men more or less
Speaker 3: attractive or good partners based on that kind of approach
Speaker 3: and vulnerability, Like, I think.
Speaker 2: It depends on the women.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think a lot of times there's great
Speaker 1: women out there who will respond well to them.
Speaker 2: There's women who won't.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times with men, you know,
Speaker 1: they are scared to show that vulnerability because of what
Speaker 1: a life lot of women have displayed, which is like,
Speaker 1: now I'm not attracted to you. And it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: I said on enough on Santiago, some women looking at
Speaker 1: you lesser if there's tears on your cheek, but if
Speaker 1: there's tears tattooed, that same girl as a freak. So
Speaker 1: they're attracted to the pain unless they hear the pain speak.
Speaker 1: So it's like it's really interesting because when you talk
Speaker 1: to when you talk to women, when you thank you,
Speaker 1: but it's like when you talk to women and you
Speaker 1: like kind of see where their heads at, you see
Speaker 1: that they kind of like a lot of women want
Speaker 1: this sort of rough and rugged guy who's like he's
Speaker 1: tough and all these things, but like you don't want
Speaker 1: him to talk about it because now he's soft. But
Speaker 1: it's like, so you want him to have some pain
Speaker 1: because that's what makes him the rough and rugged, you know,
Speaker 1: but you just don't want to hear about it. And
Speaker 1: so where does he go? Then it's oh, so you
Speaker 1: just want him to be quiet. But then you're wondering
Speaker 1: why he can't open up to you. Oh, well, he
Speaker 1: just doesn't open up to me, which one is it.
Speaker 1: This isn't build a bear, you.
Speaker 2: Know what I mean?
Speaker 1: And I feel women too, who It's like dudes want
Speaker 1: the girl doesn't. That's why it's like, find someone that's
Speaker 1: compatible with you and gets you and rock out and
Speaker 1: forget about the rest.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I love the way you do. I mean,
Speaker 3: the lyric speaks for itself, but that is summed up
Speaker 3: so well. And by the way, everyone who's listening, I'm
Speaker 3: not trying to take sides or you get where I'm
Speaker 3: coming from, Like, I'm just trying to come from a
Speaker 3: place of like where are we It's exactly what Russia said,
Speaker 3: like we want something to be tough, but without the pain,
Speaker 3: without talking about the pain.
Speaker 2: And it's like that's just not real. It doesn't exist.
Speaker 3: The idea that someone is tough and hasn't been through
Speaker 3: pain is non existent. And at some point that person
Speaker 3: is going to need to express or connect or collaborate,
Speaker 3: as you said, either with you or other people about
Speaker 3: their pain. This also applies to women, It applies to
Speaker 3: every gender that people who've been through pain are going
Speaker 3: to have stories to tell. And if you want someone tough,
Speaker 3: chances are that they've got grit and resilience because they've
Speaker 3: had massive loss in their life. Well, so I think
Speaker 3: you just summed up that is exactly what I was
Speaker 3: trying to get through it, Like pain.
Speaker 1: Is a prerequisite for being a tough, hardened man, hardened
Speaker 1: from what you know, hardened by what pain experience. So
Speaker 1: it's like, I just I do think it's really interesting
Speaker 1: for the group of women who want vulnerability and openness
Speaker 1: emotionally from men, who they also almost shame into thinking
Speaker 1: that keep your pain to yourself though.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then there's the other side. I find I
Speaker 3: have a lot of friends whore like my man doesn't
Speaker 3: open up right, Like, I have a lot of friends
Speaker 3: who're like, look, I want to be there for him,
Speaker 3: like I'm ready to listen to him, Like I want
Speaker 3: him to be more open about his way, because men
Speaker 3: are scared that if.
Speaker 2: They do, oh wow, never mind, this is unattractive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because it goes against what we as men
Speaker 1: have been taught makes a strong man. It's not personal
Speaker 1: to you, it's how society has set us up. We've
Speaker 1: been brainwashed, you know, would you say yours is just
Speaker 1: you're so seeking the answers, like what gave you the
Speaker 1: courage to break that as someone who's a stage performer, Yeah,
Speaker 1: crushing it? Who has who has actually everything that ninety
Speaker 1: nine percent of men won. Yeah, what gave you the
Speaker 1: Was it courage or was it just like I just
Speaker 1: need this, like you know, yeah, it was out of desperation,
Speaker 1: to be honest, And also, I think like being isolated
Speaker 1: from society plays like a part in it. Like I'm
Speaker 1: not out and about, I'm not trying to be on
Speaker 1: the scene and make friends. I like there's a part
Speaker 1: of like being in my bubble that sort of gives
Speaker 1: me that safety net of like, Okay, if I'm vulnerable,
Speaker 1: it's like, who does that? Really, I'm not worried if
Speaker 1: that girl, this person is going to feel a way
Speaker 1: like it's kind of just me, you know that.
Speaker 2: How do you keep that distance?
Speaker 3: I feel like people struggle with that even if they're
Speaker 3: not and in entertainment, Yeah, people get glued to social media,
Speaker 3: they get addicted. How are you keeping distance when you're
Speaker 3: so interconnected to the industry? In one sense, I think
Speaker 3: it's also just a testament though to my fans I
Speaker 3: think I've had, Like I'm really fortunate to have the
Speaker 3: kind of fans that I do that are actually supporters
Speaker 3: of me. And from the beginning, I've tried to be
Speaker 3: as authentic.
Speaker 1: As I was in that moment, and I've tried to
Speaker 1: be vulnerable and introspective, and I think all of that
Speaker 1: played a part. And when I did have to cancel
Speaker 1: tour and when I have let fans in on like
Speaker 1: the journey of mental health and therapy, then being open
Speaker 1: to it because this isn't coming out of complete left field.
Speaker 1: As far as the introspection and the vulnerability, I'm a
Speaker 1: vulnerable artist. I never was like that worried like if
Speaker 1: my male fans would be like, oh, we're out, because
Speaker 1: it's like y'all are singing losing control.
Speaker 2: Yeah you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like y'all are singing love songs and heartbreak songs, so
Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying straight up, And it's like
Speaker 1: everyone's at a different place in their journey and like, however,
Speaker 1: like wherever you're at is fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I remember that when I was when I was a teenager,
Speaker 3: when I thought I was that's when I thought I
Speaker 3: was cool, right, It was like I was that kind
Speaker 3: of person that didn't understand and how someone could get
Speaker 3: depressed because I didn't get it like it was like
Speaker 3: that four years ago.
Speaker 2: It's so bad. Yeah, you have that mind to you
Speaker 2: like what does that mean? Right?
Speaker 3: Like, and then you go through your own stuff and
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, I get it now. And I found
Speaker 3: that for me, I found that life has this really
Speaker 3: strange way of making you go through things that you
Speaker 3: thought shouldn't affect anyone. Right, So if you in your
Speaker 3: head have an idea of like, I don't understand that,
Speaker 3: I don't know how that affects someone, just wait literally,
Speaker 3: and that has happened to me so many times. And
Speaker 3: so whenever now I have that thought, I literally catch
Speaker 3: it and I go, let's get rid of that thought,
Speaker 3: because let me actually try and be curious about it
Speaker 3: rather than look at it in a condescending way, because
Speaker 3: chances are if I see it in a derogatory way
Speaker 3: or a negligent way, I'm going to have to experience
Speaker 3: it just for life to teach me that it's real.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I got humbled for sure by.
Speaker 1: That kind of thing where it's like I realize back
Speaker 1: to me being omnipotent, I got humbled by realizing, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't know everything, you know, because I thought I'm
Speaker 1: never going to get depressed?
Speaker 2: What does that even mean?
Speaker 1: Like what's that you know? And then all of a
Speaker 1: sudden you're like, okay, so this can happen to me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, describe that for me? What was that for you?
Speaker 3: Like, I think you hear and I think I can
Speaker 3: ask you this because I feel like you articulate your
Speaker 3: thoughts so well and you really get in there with
Speaker 3: what's going on. Like so many people have said this, right,
Speaker 3: this idea of like you get the triple platinum, you
Speaker 3: get the money, and it doesn't work, Like what actually?
Speaker 3: And I'm asking you because I feel like you get
Speaker 3: in there? What is actually not working about that?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: What is it about that that doesn't help you feel
Speaker 3: better or solve the void?
Speaker 2: What is it? Why does it not work?
Speaker 3: Because I think so many people say that, but then
Speaker 3: everyone goes, oh, yeah, but you're a millionaire, you can
Speaker 3: say that. Yeah, but let's let's try to help people
Speaker 3: out there. Because I still like I if I prefer
Speaker 3: being financially safe and successful in doing what I love,
Speaker 3: I do prefer that to when I was close to
Speaker 3: being broke and not successful in what I did. I
Speaker 3: much prefer my life right now. But I also know
Speaker 3: that the thing that gives me deep meaning and keeps
Speaker 3: me going is my purpose that's connected to my work.
Speaker 3: As long as I feel I'm positively impacting people, I'm
Speaker 3: serving people, and I'm using my voice to make a
Speaker 3: difference in people's lives. That is what actually makes me happy.
Speaker 3: And then what happens around it is like the best
Speaker 3: bonus of all time.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: See, that's a good value to have, though, is like
Speaker 1: in good perspective for me, the plaques or whatever. It
Speaker 1: not working is really just because you're clearly or I
Speaker 1: was clearly seeking validation subconsciously, and I thought that becoming
Speaker 1: a big artist and plaques and all that was going
Speaker 1: to make me feel validated and make me feel like
Speaker 1: I belong and make me feel approved and make me
Speaker 1: feel good enough. And when I got all that and
Speaker 1: I still had all of those issues, That's what.
Speaker 2: I mean by it not working.
Speaker 1: And I agree too, like I prefer my life now
Speaker 1: and then the alternative.
Speaker 2: But the hole is still there.
Speaker 1: And I think at seventeen, when I started like really
Speaker 1: going after this, I don't know if I had the
Speaker 1: depth in the awareness to know what I was going after.
Speaker 1: Like I'm chasing approval and validation. But when I look back,
Speaker 1: I can pinpoint certain behaviors in certain times in the
Speaker 1: studio or whatever where I was, like where I can
Speaker 1: tell I wanted people to validate me, and I want
Speaker 1: and I thought that rap in the industry was gonna
Speaker 1: pat me on the back, you know.
Speaker 2: And that's kind of what I talk about.
Speaker 1: And I love you boy, which is like, you know,
Speaker 1: I just I replaced my dad with the industry, which
Speaker 1: is really like wild, right, because I felt like as
Speaker 1: a kid wanting just approval of your dad as a son,
Speaker 1: you know, when you don't get it, you can feel
Speaker 1: like ostracized kind of and just like you don't belong,
Speaker 1: you're not good enough in all these things.
Speaker 2: And it's so strange that as a white guy.
Speaker 1: What I chose to pick to replace my dad to
Speaker 1: give me approval was a craft that that I'm ostracizing
Speaker 1: off bad, you know what I mean. It's like it's
Speaker 1: like I picked the hardest thing to get approval from.
Speaker 1: Like I replaced my dad with an industry and started
Speaker 1: to wrap I wanted praise in acknowledgment and picked the
Speaker 1: profession that people who look like me don't get, you.
Speaker 2: Know what I mean?
Speaker 1: So it's like it was almost like I guess if
Speaker 1: I could like analyze where my head was at when
Speaker 1: I was seventeen, maybe because it's like, if I could
Speaker 1: get approval from this thing that I love, this genre,
Speaker 1: this lifestyle, this whole culture, then I'm officially approved, you know,
Speaker 1: because I know how hard it is to get approval
Speaker 1: from that. And I don't know it just but it
Speaker 1: really stems from once again not having the self approval
Speaker 1: and the self validation and thinking that someone else is
Speaker 1: going to give it to you. And I remember talking
Speaker 1: with my therapist and he was like, oh, I think.
Speaker 1: I said like yeah, but you know, if I do
Speaker 1: get a number one album or number one and go
Speaker 1: number one on the Billboard Hot one hundred, and this
Speaker 1: person says, I'm great, I'm sure, like I'll feel really good.
Speaker 1: He's like, you probably will for about twenty minutes, and
Speaker 1: then I think you'll have your lowest moment of your life,
Speaker 1: you know. And I agree, you know, because when I
Speaker 1: have gotten crazy accomplishments, it lasts for not that long
Speaker 1: and I'm right back to like I'm lower because that's
Speaker 1: another thing on the list that didn't do it. That's
Speaker 1: another thing that didn't fill the whole. You know, Forbes
Speaker 1: List nope, Platinum nope, by mom House nope.
Speaker 2: Like none of it. You know, I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3: I want that to register with people because what Russ
Speaker 3: is doing, which I appreciate, is clarifying the difference. It's
Speaker 3: great in and of itself. Yeah, it just doesn't feel
Speaker 3: the hole inside, Like, it doesn't solve the fact that
Speaker 3: I don't feel better about who I am and myself.
Speaker 3: It's beautiful to buy your mama house. That's awesome, Like
Speaker 3: it's good for her, it's great like that. That's not
Speaker 3: the point. The point is it doesn't change how I
Speaker 3: feel about my level of self worth and self esteem.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: The point is like, if I thought that buy my
Speaker 1: mama house and making the four of us and going
Speaker 1: platinum was going to make me feel validated, approved and
Speaker 1: like I'm good enough, then that's the mistake. That's where
Speaker 1: you're going to feel emptier than ever because you're going
Speaker 1: to do that, and that's not what's.
Speaker 2: Going to do it.
Speaker 3: You know what's really interesting for me listening to you
Speaker 3: is so I'm kind of like where you're at with
Speaker 3: your parents, where I love both my parents and independently
Speaker 3: and in the same way. I have a good relationship
Speaker 3: with both of them today, but it wasn't always. It
Speaker 3: wasn't that way externally and with my dad especially. So
Speaker 3: my dad didn't validate me or even support me when
Speaker 3: I was growing up like he would if he turned
Speaker 3: up to a swim competition, because I used to swim
Speaker 3: a lot. When I'd look up at the stands, he'd
Speaker 3: be reading his newspaper, so or if I was. I
Speaker 3: played rugby for my school and it was one of
Speaker 3: my favorite things that I made it onto my school's
Speaker 3: rugby team. I used to be a lot bigger growing up,
Speaker 3: and he would never turn up to support me, and
Speaker 3: so my dad wasn't there. And that was really interesting
Speaker 3: because at the time it made me just want to
Speaker 3: get approval of my friends and like be cool and whatever,
Speaker 3: and that leads you to do all sorts of dumb stuff.
Speaker 3: But what it ultimately led me to was I got
Speaker 3: to make my own rules of what success were. So
Speaker 3: not getting his version, he never had a version of
Speaker 3: success for me, like he almost didn't have like this
Speaker 3: is what you have to be to be successful, and
Speaker 3: so I've always seen it as I just got freedom
Speaker 3: to define what kind of man I wanted to be,
Speaker 3: because my dad didn't really define what kind of man
Speaker 3: he cared I would be. And it's really interesting now
Speaker 3: because when I look at my relationship with him today,
Speaker 3: he's more like a friend than he is my dad
Speaker 3: because he wasn't really fathering me. And I think where
Speaker 3: I got really lucky, Like this really was like one
Speaker 3: of those moments and you feel fortunate. Is I projected
Speaker 3: that lack of fatherhood fortunately onto the monks. Oh so like,
Speaker 3: because that wasn't what I was meant to be and
Speaker 3: I wasn't spiritual. And I really look at that as
Speaker 3: like I didn't have any positive role models in my life.
Speaker 3: I didn't have any positive male role models in my life.
Speaker 3: And the monks were positive male role models. And I
Speaker 3: met them at when I was eighteen years old, so important,
Speaker 3: so important, And the crazy thing about them is they
Speaker 3: don't validate you. Wow, So it was like even more challenging.
Speaker 3: But it's like you see an amazing role model who's
Speaker 3: showing you the right way, but is not trying to
Speaker 3: falsely validate or approve you, So you.
Speaker 2: Still have to figure yourself to do it yourself. You
Speaker 2: still have to.
Speaker 3: They're teaching you what you just said, how to do
Speaker 3: it yourself like that, it's still you on your own.
Speaker 3: You got to live in your own mind. And when
Speaker 3: you realize that, it's like, yeah, I live in my
Speaker 3: own mind. Yeah, these are my thoughts what you just
Speaker 3: said earlier. I either have to em translating my dad's voice, yeah,
Speaker 3: into becoming my voice, or I'm actually gonna choose what
Speaker 3: I want my thoughts to be, right, And that's what
Speaker 3: they were training us in so through so much fortune,
Speaker 3: and I got to that point. Yeah, and even till
Speaker 3: this day, I'm constantly just practicing that because again I
Speaker 3: haven't perfected it. I still get into the place where
Speaker 3: you start hearing the noise.
Speaker 1: It's so funny because that's why I ended the album
Speaker 1: with just me singing it was you all along, Because
Speaker 1: all these things I'm chasing, validation, love, approval, patience, all
Speaker 1: of it is things that I have to give myself,
Speaker 1: and I just I thought that everything and everyone else
Speaker 1: was going to give it to me.
Speaker 3: Tell me some of the ways you've been giving it
Speaker 3: to yourself, because you are getting, like you said, like
Speaker 3: a lot of people get to the point, you've got
Speaker 3: to when they're unsuccessful, so like they wait till the
Speaker 3: record's now not getting the downloads and the streams, and
Speaker 3: like they're not really winning the stuff and things are
Speaker 3: on going on, and then you go, oh, this wasn't it.
Speaker 3: You're realizing it. Wow, things are hot, right, Like things
Speaker 3: are good, your new album dropping. The music sounds great,
Speaker 3: by the way, I wanted to say, like I I
Speaker 3: was thankful that your team sent me there. Of course
Speaker 3: the album before and it's I can't wait to play
Speaker 3: it more and more and I can't wait for everyone
Speaker 3: to hear it.
Speaker 2: Music's awesome, And I just go.
Speaker 3: You're winning and you realized it, Like what are some
Speaker 3: of the things you're doing to validate yourself?
Speaker 2: Like what are you doing?
Speaker 1: Like that's what I'm still working on. You know, what
Speaker 1: are some of the practices to have it? I think,
Speaker 1: you know, it's having good values as one of them,
Speaker 1: values that like I can control, you know, I think
Speaker 1: honoring the gift is important celebrating myself, and I think
Speaker 1: the way that I've celebrated myself which makes me feel
Speaker 1: good about myself is to honor my gift. And so
Speaker 1: for example, like going to the gym for me to
Speaker 1: lose thirty pounds of fat, not muscle, right, thirty pounds
Speaker 1: of fouls crazy. I did it through shame, you need
Speaker 1: to lose weight, you know, and just talking crazy to myself.
Speaker 1: And it still worked. But I lost the weight, and
Speaker 1: I still didn't feel good about myself. I still had
Speaker 1: a breakdown, you know. And so now I'm looking at
Speaker 1: going to the gym as I'm celebrating my health and
Speaker 1: my body. I'm honoring the gift of being alive and
Speaker 1: being mobile, you know, and celebrating the gift of my
Speaker 1: creativity by going to the studio instead of looking at
Speaker 1: going to the studio.
Speaker 2: Like I need to catch a hit otherwise I'm a loser.
Speaker 1: It's like, nah, I'm celebrating myself every time I go
Speaker 1: to the studio.
Speaker 2: It's a celebration that's already a great mindset. Yeah, it's
Speaker 2: better than where I was at.
Speaker 3: I think what we don't realize is even if critical, judgmental,
Speaker 3: negative motivation works, Yeah, the problem is now that's all
Speaker 3: you have in your toolkit to motivate yourself. Right, So
Speaker 3: when you've lost the way you wanted to lose, you're
Speaker 3: now motivating yourself still through that criticism, judgment, and like
Speaker 3: talking down to yourself. And even with the music. I
Speaker 3: love what you just said. You feel so much more
Speaker 3: abundant when you walk into something and you go, I'm
Speaker 3: just here because I'm grateful to be alive.
Speaker 2: I'm happy to.
Speaker 3: Be here as opposed to God if I don't write
Speaker 3: the next here. And I know so many musicians that
Speaker 3: say that to me and the music, it's the hardest place.
Speaker 3: And I feel like I have so many people in
Speaker 3: my life that are friends that feel that pressure because again,
Speaker 3: like you said, it's the pressure they're hearing from their management,
Speaker 3: their team, their fans, their fans. Potentially, if they're not
Speaker 3: connected to them, you're going to become irrelevant. You never
Speaker 3: be as big as so and so. Didn't you see
Speaker 3: what they just did and so if you don't have
Speaker 3: that healthy dialogue internally. And I do think it is
Speaker 3: that for me as well. It's like I spend I
Speaker 3: spend so much time alone just to monitor my internal dialogue.
Speaker 3: Scary because it's the only way because when I'm alone,
Speaker 3: I can truly choose and program the thoughts in my mind,
Speaker 3: whereas if I'm constantly surrounded by people and noise, it's
Speaker 3: natural that it's going to seep in.
Speaker 1: Well, sometimes the noise distracts us from looking in because
Speaker 1: looking and it scary.
Speaker 2: That's what I was doing.
Speaker 3: I think that's the biggest reason why people don't want
Speaker 3: to spend time of.
Speaker 1: Course, especially men, because like we once again know that
Speaker 1: or we have like believed that our emotions are relevant
Speaker 1: and ignore them, you know, be like just completely avoid
Speaker 1: feeling anything, and that's what makes you a man. And
Speaker 1: so I think spending time alone and meditation and doing
Speaker 1: like you know, personal work is a very like it
Speaker 1: feels feminine to men, it feels.
Speaker 2: Soft and there.
Speaker 1: Like something interesting that I stumbled on is like, how
Speaker 1: strong of a man are you? And how brave of
Speaker 1: a man are you? If you're scared to face yourself?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's the real bravery. Yeah, sit in a
Speaker 1: room with yourself. That's like, that's courageous.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think it goes back to what you were saying earlier,
Speaker 3: that it's the perfection and positivity issue that we keep
Speaker 3: thinking that everything has to be like positive and sun
Speaker 3: And when I look inside of myself, I see tons
Speaker 3: of a dark side and stuff that I don't want
Speaker 3: to see. But I also know that that's not me
Speaker 3: because of how we were trained. The idea that you know,
Speaker 3: the concept in all of the monk teachings is that
Speaker 3: the sun is always shining, it's just often covered by clouds,
Speaker 3: and so when you look up at the sky, all
Speaker 3: you see is the clouds. You don't see the sun,
Speaker 3: and you think I am the clouds. So when you
Speaker 3: look at your thoughts, you see the cloudy thoughts and
Speaker 3: you think I'm darkness. Yeah, but actually the Sun's always there,
Speaker 3: it's just you can't see it. And so the light
Speaker 3: that me and you are, the light that everyone who's
Speaker 3: listening and watching is is always there. It's just we're
Speaker 3: just seeing all the dirt and the clouds and the
Speaker 3: rain and the you know, and we then judge it
Speaker 3: and see it as negative rather than the fact that, hey,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, I'm I'm just going to find the light,
Speaker 3: and I understand that sometimes it's going to be a
Speaker 3: cloudy day, just like it is outdoors.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's what led me to feel in like
Speaker 1: a fraud. That song's amazing, That's what that is is
Speaker 1: because looking at the cloud, thinking you are the cloud.
Speaker 1: And so then when people give you a compliment. You're like,
Speaker 1: they're giving you a compliment on you being the sun.
Speaker 1: And for me, I'm like, if only you knew I
Speaker 1: was a cloud, I would look at my shadow self
Speaker 1: and the parts of me that I'm ashamed of. It
Speaker 1: would make it impossible for me to receive love and
Speaker 1: compliments or anything positive. Also tied in with feeling like
Speaker 1: a fraud was me having to analyze, well, why did
Speaker 1: my parents getting divorce actually affect me? Why did the
Speaker 1: hate coming in actually affect me? Because on surface, it
Speaker 1: felt so vapid, like your parents broke up and people
Speaker 1: don't like you, Big deal, right, But when I through
Speaker 1: therapy and through really growing down, that's when I learned, like, okay,
Speaker 1: hold on. Since I was a kid, my role and
Speaker 1: my identity came from being the savior of my family emotionally,
Speaker 1: you know, And I talk about it on I Love
Speaker 1: You Boy, where my dad was very reactive and my
Speaker 1: mom was like fatalistic, and I was just the one
Speaker 1: running around knocking on everyone's door to make sure like
Speaker 1: everyone was good after a big fight or whatever, you know,
Speaker 1: because I was worried, genuinely worried, so the stakes were
Speaker 1: super high. They felt like life or death, you know,
Speaker 1: like maybe there was going to be self harm or something.
Speaker 1: And so my identity was tied to saving my family
Speaker 1: and helping them. So when my parents got divorced, it
Speaker 1: was the ultimate blow to my identity of being the savior.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just like your parents broke up, roor you're
Speaker 1: twenty three to get over? It was like, who am
Speaker 1: I if my parents break up? Who am I if
Speaker 1: I can't save us?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: And then with the hate coming in, I got my
Speaker 1: self worth from being approved and liked by everyone, and
Speaker 1: so when I got hate and a lot of it,
Speaker 1: it wasn't just you have haters get over? It was
Speaker 1: who am I if people don't like me? So that's
Speaker 1: what threw me for a spin. It was I feel
Speaker 1: like a fraud.
Speaker 2: That is so deep.
Speaker 3: Yeah, your identity is based on the roles you played, right,
Speaker 3: and if you can no longer play that, who am I?
Speaker 3: And who is?
Speaker 2: What is your identity? Right?
Speaker 3: And that's where it's hard because that means going back
Speaker 3: to what you said earlier, which was really powerful, is
Speaker 3: that your values is the best place to start, because
Speaker 3: your values is something you can control. If you only
Speaker 3: value yourself for a role you play for other people
Speaker 3: which you don't control right now, that's not your value,
Speaker 3: right and when they break up, well it goes astray.
Speaker 2: You don't know who you are anymore. That is devastating blow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, especially when I didn't know why I was
Speaker 1: so upset by it, you know, I was like, this
Speaker 1: shouldn't be effected. I'm twenty four to twenty five, Like
Speaker 1: what's the big deal? But it just didn't go away.
Speaker 1: And then it was funny that, like the hate and
Speaker 1: them divorcing came at the same time.
Speaker 2: And now when I look back, I'm like, this was.
Speaker 1: All like by design, you know, this was all to
Speaker 1: help me grow down. But yeah, it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: when you've gotten your identity from a role that you've
Speaker 1: been playing for so long and that role is taken
Speaker 1: away from you or threatened, it's like, yeah, who are you?
Speaker 2: You said that phrase twice just now, growing down? Growing up? Yeah,
Speaker 2: what does that mean? Because I like that.
Speaker 1: I think a lot of times in my career I
Speaker 1: was just focused on like external growth and like am
Speaker 1: I getting more followers? Am I getting more money? Am
Speaker 1: I getting more plaques? And am I growing up?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And I wasn't focused on growing down into like the
Speaker 1: core of who I am and getting to the root
Speaker 1: of it and to the truth of myself. And that's
Speaker 1: what I've been trying to do. That's what this album is,
Speaker 1: is like me growing down, trying to like get deeper
Speaker 1: and deeper into who I actually am, you know, because
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to operate from a place of authenticity
Speaker 1: and truth. And it's hard to feel authentic and be
Speaker 1: authentic when you're operating from a place of shame. Like
Speaker 1: I'm ashamed of who I am and I'm insecure about
Speaker 1: who I am, So how can I be authentic? Because
Speaker 1: authentic being authentic with me and being insecure and being
Speaker 1: and it's like I can't be that, especially in rap,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So it's like gotta mask it,
Speaker 1: gotta be omnipotent.
Speaker 3: You know what was the darkest and scariest thing you
Speaker 3: saw when you started growing down?
Speaker 1: I think the biggest thing I the like darkest thing
Speaker 1: and thought I had was like I don't like myself.
Speaker 2: That was like the heaviest and what was it that
Speaker 2: you didn't like?
Speaker 1: I was ashamed about how I've handled my career. I
Speaker 1: was very mad about at like twenty three year old me.
Speaker 1: I would beat him up daily. I was mad about
Speaker 1: you know, me being reactive towards people. I just didn't
Speaker 1: like anything about you know, myself. And that was a
Speaker 1: real low point of like, once again, fraud, if only
Speaker 1: the world knew, you know, and I have self help book, right,
Speaker 1: And I mentioned that on fraud as well.
Speaker 2: It's like, who am I like to.
Speaker 1: Try to give people a book like and for me,
Speaker 1: the book so successful and has helped a lot of people.
Speaker 1: But I look back at that book, I'm like, it's
Speaker 1: like vapid to me now, you know. And I'm glad
Speaker 1: it's helping people. But and I shouldn't. I shouldn't denounce
Speaker 1: any version of me that's like you're watching it in
Speaker 1: real time what I do. And yeah, that's the heaviest,
Speaker 1: darkest thing that I've come to terms with, not that
Speaker 1: it's a reality of mine that I want to come
Speaker 1: to terms with, but getting to a place of like,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't like myself.
Speaker 2: That was the lowest point.
Speaker 3: I love what you just said that it's like being
Speaker 3: authentic means being able to accept that I feel insecure, right,
Speaker 3: and that that lost version of me just got me
Speaker 3: through that, and that doesn't make it good or bad,
Speaker 3: but it was a reality. But we think being authentic
Speaker 3: means being like smooth and like organized.
Speaker 1: What I've learned in therapy is the admission of insecurity
Speaker 1: and feeling nervous is step one. Because what happened to me,
Speaker 1: and I think what happens to a lot of people
Speaker 1: is rejecting your insecurities leads to self destruction. So for example,
Speaker 1: like I used to do interviews super drunk, right Why
Speaker 1: because I was nervous and insecure about just being my
Speaker 1: authentic self. I didn't know how to be that version,
Speaker 1: so I would drink to knock the edge off. So like,
Speaker 1: the rejecting of my insecurity led to self destructive habits
Speaker 1: and overall a result.
Speaker 2: That I don't like, you know.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think just sitting in your insecurities and
Speaker 1: saying that it's okay to be insecure and feel nervous. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think for me it's like nah, like especially
Speaker 1: as men like nah, I'm not allowed to like we got.
Speaker 2: To be the man, you know. Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I often like even when I if I ever
Speaker 3: end up, I don't go to many parties or events
Speaker 3: and things like that. But if I ever have to
Speaker 3: where I do go for a specific purpose, and it
Speaker 3: was someone it was what it was on the Trevor
Speaker 3: Noah Interview. When Trevor came on the show, he said
Speaker 3: to me, he goes, Jay, you always seem really comfortable
Speaker 3: whenever I see you somewhere, and I was like, that's
Speaker 3: because I only really go to places I have a purpose. Like,
Speaker 3: I was like, if I don't have a purpose there,
Speaker 3: I was like, if you ever see me uncomfortable, it's
Speaker 3: because I don't have a purpose, then I don't know
Speaker 3: what I'm doing there. And I had a couple of
Speaker 3: those last year, which we talked about.
Speaker 2: Is funny enough.
Speaker 3: My team was like, Oh, you should definitely go to
Speaker 3: this event. It's really important and stuff, and so I
Speaker 3: went along and I just felt really like insecure there
Speaker 3: and useless because I didn't have a role. I didn't
Speaker 3: have a purpose. I wasn't representing what I believe I
Speaker 3: go to. Obviously I was representing myself, but I mean
Speaker 3: I wasn't there to represent anything bigger than me showing up.
Speaker 3: And I found that when I do feel like that,
Speaker 3: I just go up to one other person that I
Speaker 3: feel I could connect with and just be like, hey,
Speaker 3: are you feeling insecure too?
Speaker 2: Because I am?
Speaker 3: And it's that and it's amazing because everyone's feeling in
Speaker 3: You're like, especially at like these big events that like,
Speaker 3: no one there's no one, no matter how cool you
Speaker 3: think anyone is, there is no one who's that an
Speaker 3: award show, an event or a part or anything that
Speaker 3: is feeling anything but insecure. I've not met them at least, right,
Speaker 3: It doesn't that break the wall down? Literally as soon
Speaker 3: as you do that, it's like it goes away. It's
Speaker 3: the resisting the insecurity that has everyone on edge, and
Speaker 3: they're looking at you and you seem to have it
Speaker 3: all the way to get together. Meanwhile you're panicking inside
Speaker 3: and now they feel like, well I got to have
Speaker 3: it all the way together and more of tense and
Speaker 3: just like acting, and if we could just be like, hey.
Speaker 1: Is everyone nervous? Like it's almost like let's all stand
Speaker 1: here naked. Like that's what that does emotionally, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, It's like, all right, cool, now let's
Speaker 1: like now let's continue.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that happens in all like you know, it
Speaker 3: happens in family events. It happens at weddings, it happens
Speaker 3: at holiday events, like it happens in normal life. You
Speaker 3: don't this isn't just about the entertainment industry like it
Speaker 3: happens everywhere. Yeah, And I fully agree with you that
Speaker 3: it's because we're just resisting in your words, like resisting
Speaker 3: that insecurity. Yeah, what's an insecurity that you were resisting
Speaker 3: for the longest time? Like what would you say was
Speaker 3: an insecurity that you've just been holding onto for not.
Speaker 1: Feeling like I don't belong. That's probably like one of
Speaker 1: the biggest ones being a white guy in rap in
Speaker 1: hip hop with no co sign within the culture to
Speaker 1: sort of make me feel like I do belong. It
Speaker 1: was a massive insecurity of mine, and I just came
Speaker 1: in guns blazing, like I don't need any y'all look,
Speaker 1: and it's like, deep down you wanted everyone though you
Speaker 1: wanted help, deep down, you know, but you masked it
Speaker 1: by well, if I'm not going to get it, I'll
Speaker 1: do it myself. And that became like a really big
Speaker 1: like brand and model for me. And I don't think
Speaker 1: people understand that my song do It Myself and that
Speaker 1: energy it was survival. It wasn't like, if you have
Speaker 1: people willing to help, I hope you should tell them. No,
Speaker 1: it was I didn't have help. I wish I did,
Speaker 1: but I didn't, so I had to do it myself.
Speaker 3: As there anyone who's ever reached out in the industry
Speaker 3: that you feel has not co signed obviously, but like
Speaker 3: giving you a bit of that kind of nurturing or
Speaker 3: has it still always been kind of like I'm making I.
Speaker 1: Think I've met a lot of great people in the
Speaker 1: industry who have given me validation and like you're great,
Speaker 1: You're dope, but like, yeah, I mean I've never been
Speaker 1: like taken under someone's wing, you know. It was always
Speaker 1: just kind of like me and my manager are just
Speaker 1: like going at this thing, you know, And I'm trying
Speaker 1: to be more proud of my younger self as much
Speaker 1: as I want to beat him up for how he
Speaker 1: like was omnipotent in a maniac, but it's like for
Speaker 1: what you were going through that you crushed, you know,
Speaker 1: like I don't know how you did all that, And
Speaker 1: that's what I love you, boy. That song is about,
Speaker 1: especially on that third verse where it's like, you know,
Speaker 1: saying you deserve a pat on the back. You know,
Speaker 1: it's just like I've never given myself a pat on
Speaker 1: the back, and I wanted to take that song to
Speaker 1: like as an opportunity to give myself the much needed,
Speaker 1: you know, pat on the back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and compassion inspired by that song.
Speaker 3: If you saw, like if you if instead of me,
Speaker 3: your younger self was sitting in front of this is
Speaker 3: a therapy exercise, right, yeah, instead of me, If your
Speaker 3: youngest self was sitting in front of you right now,
Speaker 3: like sitting in this seat, what does he need to hear?
Speaker 3: No advice, but what does he need to hear?
Speaker 2: What does he need to hear?
Speaker 1: He needs to hear that you're okay, you're safe, and
Speaker 1: I got you.
Speaker 2: That's what he needs to hear. And what do you
Speaker 2: think he'd say back? Probably I don't need your help.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really interesting, how like what I think all
Speaker 1: of us need from ourselves is just more compassion and
Speaker 1: more grace.
Speaker 2: And the younger version of me.
Speaker 1: Needs that so bad, needed that so bad, and I
Speaker 1: didn't get it, and he didn't know how to receive
Speaker 1: that help and receive that compassion. And I don't know,
Speaker 1: if you know, if I was talking to him and
Speaker 1: he rejected the help and compassion, I would just keep
Speaker 1: trying because.
Speaker 2: I know that's what he really needs.
Speaker 1: He just wants to feel safe, like he belongs, like
Speaker 1: it's going to be okay, like he's allowed to make mistakes.
Speaker 2: You know. That's the other thing, once again, being a perfectionist.
Speaker 1: It's like it really is like hindering when it comes
Speaker 1: to everything, like accepting help, because once again, help is
Speaker 1: coded as criticism as a perfectionist, feeling good about anything
Speaker 1: you've done because you could have always done better, so
Speaker 1: you didn't quite nail your standard of perfection. And I
Speaker 1: just think, like that's what I'm trying to get to now,
Speaker 1: is like giving myself more grace. And I talk about
Speaker 1: it on Tunnel Vision, where I say, I want to
Speaker 1: stop thinking that I got to go through hell to
Speaker 1: get the credit I desperately need to give to myself.
Speaker 2: You know, you can just do this an easier way.
Speaker 3: It's a most so hard being a high performa who
Speaker 3: gives grace to themselves, Yeah, because that's the hard part, right.
Speaker 3: It's like I want to perform at the best, but
Speaker 3: I know I need to be nice to myself. But
Speaker 3: I can't be too nice because if I'm too nice
Speaker 3: to myself, then I can't perform the best, and it's
Speaker 3: like this fight inside of you. Yeah, I think it
Speaker 3: comes down to kind of what you were saying earlier,
Speaker 3: where it's like if your tool kit is only shame
Speaker 3: and like dark motivation, then you're just gonna use that
Speaker 3: and it's not sustainable. I think for me, the light
Speaker 3: motivation is like, you know, I love what I'm doing,
Speaker 3: you know, when I'm on stage, I love the fans,
Speaker 3: I love performing, and as long as I did my best,
Speaker 3: I have to be okay with that.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: I can say, okay, you know, I know I can
Speaker 1: do better than that, but tonight I did my best
Speaker 1: and it's easier said than done. Like I'm working on that.
Speaker 1: But I think that's the place to start, is just knowing,
Speaker 1: like did you do your best with the resources that
Speaker 1: you had? And to think that you were supposed to
Speaker 1: just be this all knowing entity, it's like that's arrogance,
Speaker 1: you know. But that's why I would beat myself up
Speaker 1: a lot. It's like, how did you not know?
Speaker 2: You know? But it's like you're allowed to not know everything.
Speaker 3: That's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful. Actually to look back and
Speaker 3: think I wouldn't have done anything better. I'm glad that. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I had to just go through that, and that's why
Speaker 3: I was back Then's what I was.
Speaker 1: Those were like I based my decisions in the past
Speaker 1: off of what I knew back then and what felt
Speaker 1: true to me back then, what felt authentic, and with
Speaker 1: the reservoir of knowledge I had back then, that's.
Speaker 2: What I based my decisions off of.
Speaker 1: Obviously, now seven years later, ten years whatever it is,
Speaker 1: I would make different decisions. But it's like, I can't
Speaker 1: be mad at twenty three year old me that he
Speaker 1: didn't know what thirty year old me.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so hard for me to not want to
Speaker 1: beat him up, Like you're such an idiot. All you
Speaker 1: had to do was like read this one book and
Speaker 1: you would have even been better off. You know, sometimes
Speaker 1: it feels like the answer was right.
Speaker 3: There, But that's what it is, right Like, we have
Speaker 3: this tabit as humans where we judge ourselves off of
Speaker 3: one conversation and one event, one performance, one song, one meeting.
Speaker 3: And what's really interesting thing is about that is that
Speaker 3: we then project that onto other people, where we judge
Speaker 3: them on one song, one moment, one interaction rather than
Speaker 3: looking at someone as this story of a human And
Speaker 3: it's fascinating to me that you would never ever pick
Speaker 3: up a book and read one page and judge the
Speaker 3: whole book. No one really does that. You would read
Speaker 3: some of the book at least. But it's like with
Speaker 3: ourselves and with others, we don't see them as a story.
Speaker 3: We see them as a.
Speaker 1: Page and right, it's so brutal.
Speaker 2: Though it's so brutal.
Speaker 1: It's so brutal, I do it to myself, and I
Speaker 1: think I think in the world of social media too.
Speaker 2: You're not allowed to make mistakes.
Speaker 1: Your one mistake is the book that just tells me
Speaker 1: everything I need to know about you and how you
Speaker 1: treat yourself. Because I know like I tend to be
Speaker 1: and this is not a great thing, a very judgmental person.
Speaker 1: And I justify it by saying, relax, I judge myself too.
Speaker 1: It's like, that's not good though, you know, and it's
Speaker 1: but I do what you said. I'd look at one
Speaker 1: event and be like, you don't deserve anything because of
Speaker 1: that one convo or that one tweet or that one.
Speaker 3: Not realizing that at that point that was where that
Speaker 3: person was right. And actually we open people up to change,
Speaker 3: including ourselves, when we recognize that our capacity for change
Speaker 3: can increase if you look back at an event like
Speaker 3: you're saying, and you're like, I actually appreciate That's what
Speaker 3: I knew then. I didn't do something I was proud of,
Speaker 3: but that's what I knew then. Now that I think,
Speaker 3: there's a famous Maya Angelou quote where she says that
Speaker 3: now that I know better, I do better. And the
Speaker 3: idea of if you don't accept that that's possible for
Speaker 3: you and others, that's what actually keeps you in prison
Speaker 3: because you keep saying no, no, no, that's who you are.
Speaker 3: That event ten years ago is who you are, and
Speaker 3: that's who you'll ever be.
Speaker 2: So tough, that's so true.
Speaker 1: It's tough, but I mean in social media, you're not
Speaker 1: allowed to change your mind. That also keeps people, especially
Speaker 1: celebrities and people in the public eye, like into this
Speaker 1: prison where it's like no, no, no.
Speaker 2: No, what you said.
Speaker 1: You believed what you said ten days ago, ten years ago,
Speaker 1: you better still believe that or you're fake, like and
Speaker 1: it's crazy because you're allowed to change your mind. And
Speaker 1: not only are you allowed to change your mind, you're
Speaker 1: supposed to change your mind. You're supposed to now have
Speaker 1: a new belief system. It's not like Rick Rubin talked
Speaker 1: about it with you, and I thought it was so
Speaker 1: spot on. It's like if you still have the same
Speaker 1: beliefs you did twenty years ago upon learning new things,
Speaker 1: and you're not growing like you know, but I think
Speaker 1: that's why you got to like remove yourself from social
Speaker 1: media and what the world in the mob of the
Speaker 1: internet and stop trying to reconcile with them, reconcile with yourself,
Speaker 1: and give yourself the permission to change your mind.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I've what something when you think that you have
Speaker 3: changed your mind on from let's say like maybe ten
Speaker 3: years ago, or maybe if you need to go back longer,
Speaker 3: twenty years ago. Like I'll share one of mine. Mine
Speaker 3: was when I was young, I didn't because I grew
Speaker 3: up in this mindset. I believed that people who had
Speaker 3: money had to do something dodgy to get money. Yes,
Speaker 3: because that's the language that I was raised in. Like
Speaker 3: we always heard that, like, oh yeah, but he doesn't
Speaker 3: pay his taxes.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 3: If I saw a nice car and I've been like
Speaker 3: my family would be like oh yeah, yeah, but they
Speaker 3: always do that dodgy business on the side, and so
Speaker 3: in my head, anyone who had money must be doing
Speaker 3: something wrong to have money, and that not only did
Speaker 3: that limit me from appreciating others or admiring or learning
Speaker 3: from those people, it blocked me from thinking that was
Speaker 3: good for me and possible for me.
Speaker 1: Right, because you would have had to do because I
Speaker 1: would have had to do dogy stuff.
Speaker 3: And I thought I was a good person, so I
Speaker 3: don't I'm not going to do anything. I would never
Speaker 3: do anything bad. So so you'll never get money, yeah,
Speaker 3: exactly right, And then all of a sudden start realizing
Speaker 3: where like you need to meet And this is why
Speaker 3: I think, that's why I love the podcast, because I
Speaker 3: want to show people or show sides of people, or
Speaker 3: let people show sides of themselves where people can go, oh,
Speaker 3: that is possible. I can be a rapper, yeah, and
Speaker 3: go to therapy like I can be, you know, I
Speaker 3: can be someone who makes songs about this, this, this,
Speaker 3: and work on myself like that. There is an and
Speaker 3: as opposed to like this, you know finite yeah exactly.
Speaker 3: So for me, that was a big one for me
Speaker 3: of recognizing that you can make money with integrity. You
Speaker 3: could use it in service, you could it could be
Speaker 3: used proactively for purpose, And that was a massive limiting
Speaker 3: belief and negative belief I had. What was something for
Speaker 3: you that you that you changed your mind on.
Speaker 2: I think the big thing for me was thinking that
Speaker 2: I was always right. Ooh, that's good.
Speaker 1: That's the biggest one for me because I was operating
Speaker 1: in this place once again of omnipotence, just that I
Speaker 1: knew everything, everything I did was right, every decision I've
Speaker 1: ever made was right because look in my life, clearly,
Speaker 1: everything I've ever done was right, and everything I say
Speaker 1: is right everything I know. So I got to a
Speaker 1: place now where I'm so much more curious and I'm
Speaker 1: so much more humble in the sense of like, I'm
Speaker 1: open to being wrong, because it's like, I believe what
Speaker 1: I believe, but I'm open to changing my mind. I'm
Speaker 1: open to someone else telling me their beliefs and me
Speaker 1: being open minded and curious about it. I'm open to
Speaker 1: not always being right. And I think that is a
Speaker 1: much better like starting place.
Speaker 3: And that's It's really interesting because everything we're saying is
Speaker 3: basically that paradox, Like we were saying, you want to
Speaker 3: be ambitious, but you gotta have grace for yourself. You
Speaker 3: want to be you want to know your values, but
Speaker 3: you want to be open to learning more and changing them.
Speaker 3: And it's almost like everything is this And I think
Speaker 3: that's where we struggled the most, because whether it was parenting,
Speaker 3: whether it was school, whether it was is our background,
Speaker 3: we were always told that there was one right answer, right, right,
Speaker 3: like you have to get us in the back of
Speaker 3: the book exactly, yeah, yeah, And it's like there's one
Speaker 3: right answer that everyone has to get to and if
Speaker 3: your one mark off the answer, then it's the wrong answer.
Speaker 3: And the truth is that life is so variegated, it
Speaker 3: is so gray. It is as you just said, even
Speaker 3: when you were talking earlier, you were like, there's so
Speaker 3: many layers to this.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So it's like one answer is material stuff doesn't make
Speaker 3: you happy, right, But it's like when you broke down
Speaker 3: the layers of like, actually, why did my parents divorce
Speaker 3: make me unhappy? It's because this is and so like
Speaker 3: everything is so layered, but I feel like we haven't.
Speaker 3: I don't know if our brain our brain almost needs
Speaker 3: not an app but our brain needs the ability to
Speaker 3: be able to understand how everything is so multi layered. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but it's so much easier to just put someone in
Speaker 3: a box and go that's what I'm judging.
Speaker 2: And just be more flexible. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think Atomic Habits talks about like keeping your
Speaker 1: identity small, and I thought it was so genius. Talks about,
Speaker 1: you know, there's athletes who their identity is, I'm an athlete,
Speaker 1: I'm a point guard. And what happens when you're not
Speaker 1: playing basketball anymore? Though, and they have this identity crisis
Speaker 1: and sometimes it gets really you know, severe, and he
Speaker 1: talks about how like instead of saying I'm an athlete,
Speaker 1: how about saying I'm a hard worker who you know
Speaker 1: works well with teams and did it and so that
Speaker 1: you can still get you can still apply what your
Speaker 1: strengths are from being an athlete into other aspects of
Speaker 1: your life after being an athlete is done. And I
Speaker 1: thought that was so powerful because it's so easy to
Speaker 1: get tied up into.
Speaker 2: I'm a rapper or I'm at this or I'm at that.
Speaker 1: And you start trying to like do things based off
Speaker 1: of the perception of yourself. And I just think being
Speaker 1: more flexible, you know, and not being so rigid on
Speaker 1: who you are and just you know, be open.
Speaker 3: What's something that you were very I guess inflexible about,
Speaker 3: inflexible about, and now that you've become more flexible about
Speaker 3: in your identity.
Speaker 1: I think being a man and being what I thought
Speaker 1: that means, like being not showing any emotion, not showing
Speaker 1: like anything is affecting me, not receiving help, doing it myself,
Speaker 1: all these things like that, to me is the most
Speaker 1: valuable thing that I'm now flexible on is because I've
Speaker 1: learned that their strength and vulnerability and their strength in
Speaker 1: being honest, and their strength in collaboration, you know, learning
Speaker 1: from a positive male role model who's older than you
Speaker 1: and just can give you, you know, new wisdom, new knowledge.
Speaker 1: It's like their strength in collaboration. I think we've talked
Speaker 1: about it in therapy. It was this documentary that my
Speaker 1: therapist was talking about like and he was talking about
Speaker 1: how like alpha males who lead by dominance via like
Speaker 1: fear are often like exiled or killed, and the ones
Speaker 1: who lead through collaborate and cohesion like like exhibit peace
Speaker 1: and like people love them. And it's so funny because
Speaker 1: I think growing up like we would idolize those male
Speaker 1: figures who were the like just dominant, you know, and
Speaker 1: just invoke fear and all these things. And I'm just
Speaker 1: trying to help myself, and I'm also trying to help
Speaker 1: my fans. And then on a real, real specific level,
Speaker 1: I'm trying to be a lighthouse for young men that
Speaker 1: can look at me and say, you know what, I
Speaker 1: don't have to have it all figured out because he doesn't.
Speaker 1: And if he's allowed to make mistakes, I'm allowed to
Speaker 1: make mistakes. I'm trying to get men and people to
Speaker 1: just be nicer to themselves, have more compassion, have more grace.
Speaker 3: I love what you were saying about leader is because
Speaker 3: I feel like there is that perception that leaders have
Speaker 3: to be stoic and strong and cold.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And it was really interesting to me because I'm still
Speaker 3: close with my monk teachers, and like they're the kind
Speaker 3: of people that would come and sit in the back
Speaker 3: on the floor of a class and listen to a
Speaker 3: young monk give a talk, and that was considered humility,
Speaker 3: and the strength of a leader was like they weren't
Speaker 3: enforcing their authority, like they would always say, like a
Speaker 3: real leader doesn't. I would always hear them say this,
Speaker 3: like a real leader doesn't demand respect, they command it, right,
Speaker 3: It's just it's natural for them. They don't have to
Speaker 3: walk into the room and all eyes on me, They
Speaker 3: don't have to do something big to gain attention. They
Speaker 3: actually would come on and put the spotlight on you.
Speaker 3: But it's interesting because that isn't our general belief around leaders.
Speaker 3: We almost want to be pushed around and moved around
Speaker 3: to think someone's powerful. It's almost like if someone's kind
Speaker 3: and gracious, you kind of think of them as.
Speaker 2: Like a soft and a pushover. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Whereas and so I think there's so much rewiring that
Speaker 3: almost needs to go on into what is healthy leadership.
Speaker 1: Or I know, and I'm not like the epitome of
Speaker 1: no no, no where neither should be. But it's like,
Speaker 1: I agree, I think there's a rewiring that has to
Speaker 1: happen on what it means to be a man. And
Speaker 1: I think men need to also stop looking for what
Speaker 1: it means to be a man from women, and women
Speaker 1: need to stop even caring what men say when it
Speaker 1: comes to what does it mean to be a woman's
Speaker 1: We don't know each other's experiences, you know. Men need
Speaker 1: more male collaboration, positive male collaboration positive role models.
Speaker 3: And I think it's what you said earlier, like knowing
Speaker 3: that we're wrong if we are sitting with someone to
Speaker 3: learn about them, go into it going I probably don't
Speaker 3: know what you're going through right now, right and I'm
Speaker 3: probably wrong as opposed to like, yeah, I already know,
Speaker 3: I've got you figured out, Like all men are like this,
Speaker 3: well women are like this or or whatever it may be,
Speaker 3: which which is kind of how we live in the world.
Speaker 2: What does anything do you sleep?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 2: What keeps you up at night? I sleep on now?
Speaker 2: I got an or a ring?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I like the Yeah, I'm I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm thirty now.
Speaker 2: I'm trying to like be in bed by you know midnight.
Speaker 3: Dude, you're getting I'm I'm faty sixty yere and I've
Speaker 3: been I sleep at like ninety that's beautiful.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so good.
Speaker 1: I've been going to sleep at like nine p fifty,
Speaker 1: getting like eight hours of sleep. I feel like waking
Speaker 1: up going on walks. Am I this is crazy?
Speaker 2: How does it feel to have hit that in that
Speaker 2: you once sid.
Speaker 1: If like even Santiago, This feels like my debut album
Speaker 1: because it just feels like this is a version of
Speaker 1: myself that has not been shown to the world. And
Speaker 1: I still feel as young as I ever felt. But
Speaker 1: I just feel like I know myself more. I'm more
Speaker 1: comfortable with myself. I'm living in more of my truth
Speaker 1: and authenticity, and I'm excited. Like I just feel I
Speaker 1: feel blessed to make it out of my twenties alive,
Speaker 1: you know, without any like drug problems or anything. Because
Speaker 1: looking back, I'm like I can see, you know, reasons
Speaker 1: for numbing the pain, you know.
Speaker 2: But yeah, I'm excited.
Speaker 3: I love the uh you know, I was watching you.
Speaker 3: I'm always following everything you're up to, and I love
Speaker 3: the way you talk to the fans when you're on
Speaker 3: stage and when you post from it. But also how
Speaker 3: you've been encouraging so many young artists to like jump
Speaker 3: on tracks and like be a part of the music, yeah,
Speaker 3: through TikTok and everything else, And like, I think that's
Speaker 3: so dope, man, because I it just I think there
Speaker 3: was I think there was one when you do with
Speaker 3: Caitlyn right, yeah, and it was just like I just
Speaker 3: found that whole approach to be so true to how
Speaker 3: you came up, yeah, and what you do and like
Speaker 3: being able to past on. How does that feel to
Speaker 3: be able to now like it's it's it's incredible.
Speaker 1: I feel like I've said it before to like my
Speaker 1: friends and people like you don't really feel the power
Speaker 1: of your platform or the power of your money until
Speaker 1: you give it away and see how it affects someone
Speaker 1: who maybe doesn't have that. It sort of like snaps
Speaker 1: you out of it for a second. It snaps you
Speaker 1: into really.
Speaker 2: What you've built.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean for me, like the you know,
Speaker 1: the approach on TikTok and putting Caitlin on the song,
Speaker 1: it's like it's a no brainer. Like and that's where
Speaker 1: like I'm glad I don't have an ego in that
Speaker 1: sense in that field. It's like, if I'm putting up
Speaker 1: a song and someone is affected by it enough to
Speaker 1: want to do their own version, and people love it,
Speaker 1: and I think it sounds good.
Speaker 2: Why would I not just like make that a thing?
Speaker 1: Just like this is the entertainment business, and it's like, meaning,
Speaker 1: we're in the business of people enjoying what you're doing.
Speaker 1: This is a cheek coode. They've already said that they
Speaker 1: enjoy it. Just give it to them. It's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought it was dope. I love that answer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she's great, very very talented. Where you just mentioned the ego,
Speaker 1: then where does the ego still blucky? Sometimes you're like,
Speaker 1: that's somewhere where I don't have an ego, whereas I.
Speaker 2: Don't have a How would you describe the ego? It's
Speaker 2: a great question because then I could answer, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: it's great.
Speaker 3: It's a great question. And that's what I want to
Speaker 3: give you a very thoughtful and so I would say
Speaker 3: that the ego is any moment in which you create
Speaker 3: a false sense of security. So you're creating a false
Speaker 3: sense of being safe as opposed to be an arrogant
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. That's it, because those are all Ultimately
Speaker 3: it's a false self defense mechanism. Yeah, So like for example,
Speaker 3: with my wife, it's like, if my wife tells me
Speaker 3: something that I know is blatantly true, my ego will
Speaker 3: even construct something where I'm like, oh, yeah, but this
Speaker 3: happened before and this thing, and it's like I'm constructing
Speaker 3: a true What I'm saying is true, it's factual, but
Speaker 3: I'm still using it just to defend my ego because
Speaker 3: I'm scared of just saying like, you know.
Speaker 2: That you're wrong. Yeah, oh I do that all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so the wrong parts through.
Speaker 3: But like, yeah, where where do you create a false
Speaker 3: sense of safety in your life or a false sense
Speaker 3: of security?
Speaker 2: I think trying to constantly.
Speaker 1: Save my mom emotionally and take on my family's emotions
Speaker 1: as my responsibility because without me doing that, they're not
Speaker 1: safe is like a really big crux of like my stress,
Speaker 1: you know, and it's not on them, it's on me,
Speaker 1: And it's really me, not like I'm not allowing my
Speaker 1: mom to pull herself out of the hole unless I
Speaker 1: go down there with her. But that's really the opposite
Speaker 1: of empowering. It's like I need to let go. But
Speaker 1: letting go so scary because if I feel like she's drowning,
Speaker 1: or if I feel like my brother's drowning, or my
Speaker 1: sister or whoever I love is drowning and I'm watching
Speaker 1: them drown, how am I supposed to not go in
Speaker 1: and save them? But the reality is sometimes they're just
Speaker 1: flapping their arms and their feet are on the ground,
Speaker 1: and it just looked like they were drowning, you know.
Speaker 2: But dude, that is a great answer was.
Speaker 3: No, because you just there was another definition as when
Speaker 3: you ask me that question, that game. To my mind,
Speaker 3: it's and whatever anyone's believing God is when I say
Speaker 3: the word God is God, universe.
Speaker 2: Whatever you personally choose.
Speaker 3: But like the ego is when you choose to play
Speaker 3: God instead of play your part for God.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: Right, Okay, And that's why it's a great answer because
Speaker 3: that is exactly what's happening. It's like you're you're saying
Speaker 3: it's all on me, right, and you're trying to.
Speaker 2: Be the me the almighty.
Speaker 3: You use the word at the beginning like that's a
Speaker 3: god like word, right, like where you're like everything rests
Speaker 3: and depends on me, which means if I do it,
Speaker 3: I'm going to save it and if I'm not there, it's.
Speaker 2: Going to fall apart.
Speaker 3: Right, And that's ego because like you just rightly said,
Speaker 3: like not only you can love someone and let them
Speaker 3: still grow by themselves and still be there for them,
Speaker 3: but you can't grow for them, right, But when you
Speaker 3: want to grow for someone instead of grow with them
Speaker 3: or help them grow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that that level of like omnipotence
Speaker 1: and that level of control also influences like lack of
Speaker 1: confidence because by me being like, let me handle it,
Speaker 1: really says, oh, so you think that if I handle it,
Speaker 1: you know, me being my mind like, oh you think
Speaker 1: if I handle it, don't let you help me? Russ
Speaker 1: that like I can't do it, you know, And I'm.
Speaker 2: Just like, yeah, kind of, you know, but I need to.
Speaker 1: It's just really it's coming back to that place of
Speaker 1: my role in my identity. I always played the role
Speaker 1: of helping and being responsible emotionally for people and saving
Speaker 1: them and fixing things, and so it's just second nature.
Speaker 1: I get very hyper vigilant when someone around me is upset,
Speaker 1: because if you're upset, it's my fault, is what it
Speaker 1: gets like coded as and I'm trying to unlearn that.
Speaker 1: But that's tough because, like I said, I feel or
Speaker 1: when I was a kid, the stake seems so high.
Speaker 1: It felt like it was life or death if I
Speaker 1: don't help, what if someone's self harms, et cetera. But
Speaker 1: now when someone's upset, I still can't let go and
Speaker 1: still be there for them but not feel like I
Speaker 1: have to go down into the hole with them because
Speaker 1: I'm still operating from that childlike role, you know, and
Speaker 1: I'm just working on understanding that, like they're okay, They're
Speaker 1: going to be okay, Like you know, no one's saying
Speaker 1: like cut them off and don't talk to you. But
Speaker 1: it's like you don't need to go down into the
Speaker 1: hole with them.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful.
Speaker 3: And then the album Santiago is inspired by Polo Quella's
Speaker 3: Alchemist Yes, which is a legendary If you haven't heard,
Speaker 3: I mean, you have to have heard of this book.
Speaker 3: Everyone's listening if you haven't. It's a legendary book by
Speaker 3: a legendary author. When did you first come across the book?
Speaker 3: And why did you feel like you wanted to bring
Speaker 3: music into the book?
Speaker 1: So Boogie is my best friend put that book in
Speaker 1: my hand when I was probably seventeen eighteen, I.
Speaker 2: Met and lost time. Did you go with you? Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's a great deal. It is incredible.
Speaker 1: So he put like that book in my hand and
Speaker 1: Napoleon Hill in my hand, you know, and crazy books
Speaker 1: to read at that age, and I would It was
Speaker 1: instantly like it became like a bible for me, you know,
Speaker 1: and there was just so many parallels that I found
Speaker 1: and I just I've like opened it back up or
Speaker 1: you know, a few times over the years, but for
Speaker 1: whatever reason, two years ago, summer of twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: I decided.
Speaker 2: To reread it. And you know how you can like.
Speaker 1: Read a book that you've already read, but you read
Speaker 1: it at a different time in your life, and all
Speaker 1: of a sudden, different things stick out and it resonates deeper.
Speaker 1: And so it just felt it just spoke to me
Speaker 1: so deeply than even before it, and I was like, man,
Speaker 1: I want to make a whole album that gives like
Speaker 1: that parallels the book with my story. But what ended
Speaker 1: up happening was it was hard for me to just
Speaker 1: tell my story and not make an album about the Alchemist.
Speaker 1: And so that's why I ended up saying it was
Speaker 1: loosely inspired by the Alchemists, because at the inception, it
Speaker 1: was truly like it felt like I couldn't write about
Speaker 1: my life, I had to write about Santiago's. But then
Speaker 1: Powacuelo says something, and I think the forward where he says,
Speaker 1: Santiago is my journey, but it's your journey, because one
Speaker 1: man's journey is everyone's journey. And that was the unlock
Speaker 1: for me and the permission for me to like tell
Speaker 1: my story, and there is like parallels within the Alchemists
Speaker 1: and my natural story. But it's not a complete side
Speaker 1: by side thing. It's just it was a lighthouse for me,
Speaker 1: you know, the wind and oasis. It was things that
Speaker 1: I related to, but I still had my own input on.
Speaker 1: But yeah, complete framework and lighthouse.
Speaker 2: And he's a genius. Yeah it's beautiful with the album
Speaker 2: and what did he say? Yeah he likes it. So
Speaker 2: it's like that to me, was like, this is insane.
Speaker 2: That's beautiful, man, what a beautiful hemage to like, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was nervous because I'm like, it was so
Speaker 1: so insane. I start making this album summer twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: He doesn't follow me on Twitter randomly, like right when
Speaker 1: I start to make it, he follows me on Twitter.
Speaker 1: You know, he follows like one hundred and sixty people.
Speaker 1: And I was like, what are the odds that, like,
Speaker 1: while I'm making this, but you know, if you read
Speaker 1: the Alchemist the Signs and all these things, I'm like,
Speaker 1: all right, clearly I'm supposed to be reading this or
Speaker 1: unless he's got the room bugged, like I don't know
Speaker 1: what's going on, but I so I told right when
Speaker 1: he followed me, I told him, I was like, Yo,
Speaker 1: I'm actually making an album about like loosely inspired by
Speaker 1: the Alchemist.
Speaker 2: And he was like, that's so great.
Speaker 1: Keep me posted and he would like check in periodically
Speaker 1: like yo, how's it coming.
Speaker 2: And he doesn't follow me anymore. I don't think it's personal.
Speaker 3: But.
Speaker 2: I love it. I love it.
Speaker 3: You just you took Santiago down a different pop Yeah. Yeah, yeah, No,
Speaker 3: that's beautiful, man.
Speaker 2: I love that. I love that.
Speaker 3: If there's one song, Russ, You've been amazing. This has
Speaker 3: been such a it's always great avenue here. I've got
Speaker 3: two questions for you. One is is there anything I
Speaker 3: haven't asked you that you want to talk about? Because
Speaker 3: you're a friend and I have to honor you with
Speaker 3: that question. Is there anything we haven't dove into that
Speaker 3: you're like, yeah, I want to talk about this, this,
Speaker 3: or even if it's quieter, and you're like, it's in
Speaker 3: my heart right now.
Speaker 2: I need to say the floor is yours? No, I
Speaker 2: think honestly, I think we touched on every everything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm really really happy with that. I appreciate
Speaker 1: you having me for of.
Speaker 2: Course, man, I appreciate you.
Speaker 3: I was looking you can come back on whenever you want,
Speaker 3: Like this is like it's it's I love conversations where
Speaker 3: they really are just like a back and forth and
Speaker 3: that's how I feel with you. I'm just like we
Speaker 3: can just talk about stuff and figure stuff out and
Speaker 3: not know the answer and yeah, you know.
Speaker 2: But if there's one, I'm gonna say my one.
Speaker 3: You can say, what is the one track you want
Speaker 3: everyone to go stream after listening to this episode? Which
Speaker 3: one would you recommend?
Speaker 1: Boy?
Speaker 2: I was gonna say the same one.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's so aligned with today's conversation. But
Speaker 3: the other ones that I recommend too that we discuss today,
Speaker 3: Fraud really powerful, Oasis, highly recommend to as well. And
Speaker 3: then of course go listen to the whole album.
Speaker 2: Russ.
Speaker 3: You've been amazing to have back on. I appreciate you
Speaker 3: so much as a as a human, as an artist.
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone who's made mental health and music
Speaker 3: seem that core as you have, which I love because
Speaker 3: it's it's my life's work. But seeing you do it
Speaker 3: in your way is so empowering, and I think there
Speaker 3: are a whole group of listeners that are going to
Speaker 3: come up and just have different viewpoints because of you.
Speaker 3: So so man, Yeah you know it's happening already. It's happening.
Speaker 3: It's happening.
Speaker 2: So but thank you, Man. I appreciate you being on
Speaker 2: all banks and listen.
Speaker 1: It's a testament to like, the reason why I always
Speaker 1: want to come back here is because the energy you
Speaker 1: have and like the barriers down vibe you have where
Speaker 1: there's no judgment, and the depth you have. It was
Speaker 1: just such a no brainer for me to like, I
Speaker 1: always got to go back and sit with him because
Speaker 1: it's just such a like even the energy in this room,
Speaker 1: it's just so curious and like safe, you know, so than.
Speaker 2: You've had to you.
Speaker 3: Thank you for saying that, Man, I appreciate it anytime, Yeah, anytime,
Speaker 3: And everyone's been listening, watching wherever you are, with you
Speaker 3: walking your dog, whether you're cooking, whether you're driving to
Speaker 3: and from work, or whether you're at the gym. Make
Speaker 3: sure you tag me and Russ in all your posts
Speaker 3: on TikTok on Instagram, let us know what resonated with you,
Speaker 3: what stuck out to you on Twitter on threads. I
Speaker 3: love seeing the little clips. I love seeing how you're
Speaker 3: enjoying the podcast. It means the world to me, I know,
Speaker 3: mean a lot to Russ and tag Us when you're
Speaker 3: streaming as well. Santiago, it's out right now. Thank you
Speaker 3: so much. If you love this episode, you love my
Speaker 3: interview with Will Smith on owning your truth and unlocking
Speaker 3: the power of manifestation.
Speaker 2: Anybody who hasn't spoken to their parents or their brother,
Speaker 2: call them right now.
Speaker 3: Don't think you're going to have a chance to call
Speaker 3: them tomorrow or next week.
Speaker 2: That opportunity with my father changed every relationship in my life.