WEBVTT - Thoughts on the Ocean Course at Kiawah Island

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Garrett Morrison, managing editor at the Frida Egg, and

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<v Speaker 1>we have a fun episode for you today. But first,

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<v Speaker 1>today's podcast is brought to you by the Frida Egg

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<v Speaker 1>Pro Shop. You can find it at proshop dot Thefrida

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<v Speaker 1>Egg dot com. And we have a bunch of cool stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>One item I'd like to highlight is our Friday Egg

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<v Speaker 1>Alternate logo T shirt. We do have a logo other

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<v Speaker 1>than the egg and golf ball themed one you're used to.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't really describe it, but it's basically like a

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<v Speaker 1>putting green surrounded by sand and it just looks really cool.

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<v Speaker 1>It looks like it was designed by a good architect.

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<v Speaker 1>So you should check it out and if you like it,

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<v Speaker 1>get one. It's a great way to support us at

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<v Speaker 1>the Frida Egg. So that's proshop dot Thefrida Egg dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, So for today's episode, Frida Egg founder Andy

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<v Speaker 1>Johnson and I sit down for an extended chat about

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<v Speaker 1>a recent trip he took from his home in Chicago

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<v Speaker 1>to his temporary residence in Florida. He spent some time

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<v Speaker 1>in Ashville, North Carolina, and Charleston, South Carolina and basically

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<v Speaker 1>just saw a bunch of interesting courses. So our conversation

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<v Speaker 1>is going to be coming to you in two parts.

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<v Speaker 1>In this first part, we focus on the ocean course

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<v Speaker 1>at Kiowa Island Pete Dye design. He built it for

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<v Speaker 1>the Ryder Cup in nineteen ninety one and it's going

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<v Speaker 1>to host the PGA Championship this year. It's a really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting place and we just discuss it from every angle

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<v Speaker 1>we can. Part two of the conversation should be hitting

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<v Speaker 1>your feeds in the next couple of weeks, so keep

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<v Speaker 1>an eye out for that. And with that, let's start

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<v Speaker 1>the theme music.

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<v Speaker 2>I miss a green, for example, I'm already upset when

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<v Speaker 2>I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.

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<v Speaker 1>And when I find my ball in.

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<v Speaker 2>A bride egg Frida egg, the dreaded Frida Egg Frida,

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<v Speaker 2>egg Frida egg, Brian egg bride egg bride egg Lie,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm about ready to run off with the hump course game.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, Well, welcome to your podcast, Andy. How's it going?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh as well?

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<v Speaker 2>It's nice to be on the other side of this

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<v Speaker 2>this podcast, you know, not having to do the intro.

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<v Speaker 1>Mm hmm.

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<v Speaker 3>Those are the things I loathe.

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<v Speaker 2>Sometimes pods still get posted for a couple of days

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<v Speaker 2>just because I'm putting off doing the intro.

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<v Speaker 1>Just because you procrastinate on it.

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<v Speaker 3>No, just because I don't I don't want to do it.

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<v Speaker 1>You know. I think that's what procrastination is, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Ah, you could procrastinate something like I procrastinate things I

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<v Speaker 2>intend to do or want to do all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm also I could put a masterclass on for procrastination.

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<v Speaker 1>So yeah, procrastination is not logical. It just it just

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<v Speaker 1>kind of happens to you. Yeah, all right, So anyway,

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<v Speaker 1>we've got We've got kind of a big podcast to

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<v Speaker 1>do here. You had an interesting golf trip pretty recently

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<v Speaker 1>where you drove it sounds like from Chicago to Florida,

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<v Speaker 1>which is an insane thing to do with a small baby,

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<v Speaker 1>which is what you did. Nonetheless, you made it.

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<v Speaker 2>When we left Chicago and we were like three hours

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<v Speaker 2>into the trip and we were just in northwest Indiana,

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, what have we done?

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<v Speaker 3>What are we doing?

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<v Speaker 1>Listen, I'm very familiar with that feeling. I have young

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<v Speaker 1>children as well. Those car trips can be absolutely brutal,

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<v Speaker 1>but you managed to see some pretty interesting golf courses

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<v Speaker 1>along the way, mostly concentrated around Charleston, South Carolina and Asheville,

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<v Speaker 1>North Carolina, and we thought we'd just spend some time

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<v Speaker 1>discussing those courses. This first podcast, we're going to really

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<v Speaker 1>go in depth on Kiowa, on the Ocean course at Kiowa,

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<v Speaker 1>which is going to be the site of the PGA

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<v Speaker 1>Championship this year, so we thought we'd do a nice,

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<v Speaker 1>in depth kind discussion of that. But there are also

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<v Speaker 1>some other places that we thought we'd hit on as well.

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<v Speaker 1>But first we do have some business to get out

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<v Speaker 1>of the way. It's a new year, it's a it's

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<v Speaker 1>a new era even it feels like twenty twenty one,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're hoping that things are different in a number

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<v Speaker 1>of ways this year, including in terms of our ability

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<v Speaker 1>as a company to hold events. We love holding events,

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<v Speaker 1>and we've got a number scheduled for this year and

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<v Speaker 1>we just wanted to let people know about those. So,

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<v Speaker 1>so what have we got on the docket here?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was one of the biggest bubbers about twenty twenty.

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<v Speaker 3>There are a lot of bubbers. I'm not gonna, not

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<v Speaker 3>gonna this was.

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<v Speaker 1>This was a huge one though. Having the cancelors events

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<v Speaker 1>was heart wrenching.

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<v Speaker 2>It but in this spectrum of bubbers, oh yeah, twenty

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<v Speaker 2>twenty very small one.

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<v Speaker 1>But for everything is relative when it.

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<v Speaker 2>Comes to golf, frieda Egg was we didn't host events,

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<v Speaker 2>we obviously postponed them, and it's been a yeah, we're

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<v Speaker 2>excited for toy toy one optimistic. I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it seems like we're trending the right direction to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to host these events and feel safe hosting them

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<v Speaker 2>and feel responsible hosting them. But we've got an awesome calendar.

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<v Speaker 2>We're wrapping up a few final pieces of the calendar

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<v Speaker 2>and then we will have this out hopefully hopefully within

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<v Speaker 2>the next week or two. We've got, you know, some

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<v Speaker 2>really good venues, and you know, I think one of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that we get asked so so often is

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<v Speaker 2>where should we play?

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<v Speaker 3>And how can I play these places?

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<v Speaker 1>And all.

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<v Speaker 2>What we're trying to do with these events is provide

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<v Speaker 2>opportunities to play some of these courses that we talk

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<v Speaker 2>about a lot. So we have the steam shovel and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, for everybody that's part of the Yale event.

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<v Speaker 2>And I don't want to make get too narrow here.

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<v Speaker 2>We are working hand in hand with the university to

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<v Speaker 2>get that reschedule.

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<v Speaker 1>We're trying her best.

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<v Speaker 2>As you can imagine, with universities, COVID is a very

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<v Speaker 2>touchy thing, and with the golf course being university property,

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<v Speaker 2>it makes it extra complex for scheduling because, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>just think of it from the university, a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>outside people come on property and a large group. So

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<v Speaker 2>it sounds like, you know, we should have a date

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<v Speaker 2>in the fall. They are very optimistic about that, and

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<v Speaker 2>we should have a date for the Dog Bowl, which

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<v Speaker 2>I know whoever everybody that's been you know, signed up

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<v Speaker 2>for that. Thank you for your patients. I appreciate that.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know, some other venues that we have lined

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<v Speaker 2>up this year. We got Seth Rayner Blue Mound in Milwaukee.

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<v Speaker 2>We've got Davenport, a great Allison course in just about

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<v Speaker 2>two hours west of Chicago. Prairie Dunes will be hosting

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<v Speaker 2>an event in October early October that will be awesome.

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<v Speaker 2>Rolling Green in Philadelphia, Lancaster in Philadelphia will be hosting events.

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<v Speaker 2>Those will be in different times of the year, So

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<v Speaker 2>I guess Lancaster is not Philadelphia.

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<v Speaker 1>I know.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't want to get corrected as Lancaster.

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<v Speaker 2>It's in Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania, whatever, you know, we got a ton.

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<v Speaker 2>There are many more pine hills up in Sheboygan. We're

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<v Speaker 2>hosting event the day after the Ryder Cup, so that

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<v Speaker 2>will be a lot of fun the Monday after the

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<v Speaker 2>Ryder Cup, and I think we're going to just make

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<v Speaker 2>it a giant Ryder Cup event. So look out for

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<v Speaker 2>the event calendar release that will be sent out via

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<v Speaker 2>the newsletter in social media, and well I'm sure we'll

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it on pod after we release it, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>in an intro that I will put off for a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of days doing so that we're really excited about

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<v Speaker 2>the events. And sorry to any event that I didn't list.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't have it in front of me, which I

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<v Speaker 2>should have had.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you mention meadow Brook?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, meadow Brook and Detroit early early June.

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<v Speaker 1>Awesome looking course.

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<v Speaker 3>And for those of you who club in Minneapolis.

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<v Speaker 1>Of course, another amazing looking course that I'm really looking

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<v Speaker 1>forward to seeing. But for those of you who have

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<v Speaker 1>heard of like say Prairie Dunes or Blue Mound, but

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<v Speaker 1>haven't heard of places like Davenport, Pine Hills, meadow Brook,

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<v Speaker 1>just maybe just go to the Friday Instagram. I think

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<v Speaker 1>we've we've published pictures of those courses all pretty recently.

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<v Speaker 1>Davenport is just an incredible looking course. The places where

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<v Speaker 1>we're trying to hold events are where we think we'll

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<v Speaker 1>find really interesting architecture.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's the thing.

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<v Speaker 2>We want to expose people to awesome architecture. And in

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of cases, some of these these golf courses,

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<v Speaker 2>like Davenport's a perfect example. If Davenport was in Chicago,

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<v Speaker 2>people would talk about it all the time and it's

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<v Speaker 2>so close, Like I had put off going there for

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<v Speaker 2>so many years, and I'm so mad.

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<v Speaker 3>At myself because I literally I woke up. It was

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<v Speaker 3>in the fall. I went and I.

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<v Speaker 2>Wanted to you know, I always shoot photos early in

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<v Speaker 2>the morning usually, and I wanted to get out there.

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't even have to wake up that early to

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<v Speaker 2>get there by sunrise from my house. I mean, I

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<v Speaker 2>was there in two hours, and I was like, what,

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<v Speaker 2>how did I not get here till now? Once I

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<v Speaker 2>went on playing, It's a it's a really it's growing up.

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<v Speaker 2>Caddying On and Allison. They have a few they have

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<v Speaker 2>three I think non original holes. But in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>Allison's work in the US, and I think I've seen

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<v Speaker 2>just about all of his Midwest work. I'm missing one

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<v Speaker 2>or two. It's the best Allison that I have I

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<v Speaker 2>have seen. The topography is just unbelievable. And the greens.

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<v Speaker 2>The greens are where I usually have abode to pick

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<v Speaker 2>with with mister Allison. They get a little repetitive. They're

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<v Speaker 2>kind of just slope one direction on holes and it's

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<v Speaker 2>just big, broad slopes. These greens were had a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit more internal contouring to them that that kind of

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<v Speaker 2>caught my eye. And then the topography is just absolutely stunning.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean it's like, I think from the clubhouse you

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<v Speaker 2>could hit a golf ball into the Mississippi River, so

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<v Speaker 2>you can imagine that rolling topography that you see right

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<v Speaker 2>off that and Pine Hills. The you know urban legend

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<v Speaker 2>with Pine Hills is it's in Sheboygan obviously where Coler

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<v Speaker 2>Whistling Straits and Black Wolf are. But Herb Cohler's longtime

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<v Speaker 2>member there, tried to buy that course rather than build

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<v Speaker 2>one for the resort.

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<v Speaker 3>So you tried to buy that golf.

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<v Speaker 2>Course and it was designed by Harry Smead, who was

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<v Speaker 2>you know, didn't design a lot of courses. He had

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<v Speaker 2>to have been tied to Langford Moreau somehow.

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<v Speaker 1>You just it's totally obvious when you when you look

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<v Speaker 1>at the style of the architecture, for sure.

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<v Speaker 2>And those greens are some of the craziest greens, Like

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<v Speaker 2>they make Lusonia's greens look subdued.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you know, the.

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<v Speaker 3>Lesser own places are. We wouldn't put an event a

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<v Speaker 3>course on our event calendar if we didn't feel like

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<v Speaker 3>it was really worth your time to see, for sure.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, So that's on the event side of what

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<v Speaker 1>the Frida egg is doing this year. Obviously, we've got

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of things going on in content side. We're

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<v Speaker 1>going to be bringing you all the usual stuff and more.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm working on a new set of Frida Eggs stories

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<v Speaker 1>right now. I'm not going to say what the topic is,

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<v Speaker 1>but it is going to be a mini series five

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<v Speaker 1>to six episodes, telling one media story all the way through.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm excited about it. It takes a while to make

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<v Speaker 1>these things, especially when you're doing a big story like this,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I'm not sure when it's going to come out,

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<v Speaker 1>but it'll come out in the first half of this year.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, how much how much tape versus what we hear.

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<v Speaker 2>Would you say, what's the ratio of tape that you

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<v Speaker 2>go through recorded interviews versus you know, say we have

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<v Speaker 2>a forty minute episode, what's what's the what are you

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<v Speaker 2>that down?

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<v Speaker 1>It's like atrocious, It's like ten percent is what I

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<v Speaker 1>use maybe less honestly, For like one episode of Frida

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<v Speaker 1>Egg Stories, I usually interview four to five people, and

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<v Speaker 1>this is a what thirty to forty minute episode where

0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of it is taken up with me narrating it.

0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:24.320
<v Speaker 1>And so yeah, I mean these take an incredible amount

0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:27.280
<v Speaker 1>of work, and we get help from Jay Virick and

0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:29.920
<v Speaker 1>from j Fischel, who are kind of part of this

0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.240
<v Speaker 1>production team for these fridagg Stories. But you know, we

0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:35.720
<v Speaker 1>love doing these documentary episodes. I think it's a really

0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:39.640
<v Speaker 1>compelling format. Obviously, episodes like this where we just record

0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.280
<v Speaker 1>a conversation and put it out are a lot easier

0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.400
<v Speaker 1>on the production side. Anything else we want to talk

0:12:45.440 --> 0:12:48.040
<v Speaker 1>about on the content side, anything, I don't know.

0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:50.840
<v Speaker 2>We're just going to be hopefully with the state of

0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.199
<v Speaker 2>the world, we'll be traveling more. I you know, a

0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.440
<v Speaker 2>couple of places I'm really excited to see that I

0:12:56.480 --> 0:12:59.480
<v Speaker 2>haven't spent time in that. I am definitely going to

0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:04.240
<v Speaker 2>our Minneapolis and then also Boston.

0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.040
<v Speaker 3>Those are two.

0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:10.319
<v Speaker 2>Places I'm really excited to see, So the Northeast and

0:13:11.000 --> 0:13:14.240
<v Speaker 2>Upper Midwest. I did spend time in Minneapolis a long

0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:14.960
<v Speaker 2>time ago.

0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:17.920
<v Speaker 1>And we've got an event in Minneapolis with White bear

0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:21.080
<v Speaker 1>Yucht Club, right, and then you went and saw Rochester,

0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:23.600
<v Speaker 1>which is the second course that's going to be on

0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:26.000
<v Speaker 1>there as well. But that's I don't actually even know

0:13:26.000 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 1>where that is.

0:13:26.880 --> 0:13:29.679
<v Speaker 2>And it's like two hours or it is an hour

0:13:29.920 --> 0:13:33.040
<v Speaker 2>or two south of it's kind of in its own spot.

0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.480
<v Speaker 2>That says, such an interesting town. So Tilling has designed

0:13:36.520 --> 0:13:40.679
<v Speaker 2>this course Rochester and it's where the Mayo Clinic is,

0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:44.280
<v Speaker 2>which in like everything seemingly in that town, there's a

0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.600
<v Speaker 2>tie to the Mayo Clinic. So Tilling has daughter, I believe,

0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:52.320
<v Speaker 2>married a doctor at the Mayo Clinic. So he designed

0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.440
<v Speaker 2>the golf course for free so that he had a

0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.320
<v Speaker 2>place to play when he went and visited his daughter.

0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:04.800
<v Speaker 1>Allegedly, it sounds about right. Tilling hast designed a lot

0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:09.439
<v Speaker 1>of courses for weird reasons. Yeah, so yeah, that's really cool. Yeah,

0:14:09.480 --> 0:14:12.400
<v Speaker 1>Minneapolis is it is a place that I'm looking forward

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:14.000
<v Speaker 1>to seeing as well. I've never been to the city.

0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:15.360
<v Speaker 1>I hear great things, so.

0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.120
<v Speaker 2>We don't forget Saint Paul. I always wonder about that, like,

0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, it's true. So Alwa's my question is there

0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.880
<v Speaker 2>does one of the Twin Cities feel shade like? Does

0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:30.120
<v Speaker 2>Saint Paul feel like it gets discounted because everybody says Minneapolis.

0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:32.440
<v Speaker 1>It's got to be right, right. I think Minneapolis probably

0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:34.120
<v Speaker 1>gets more attention just because it's more fun to.

0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:37.240
<v Speaker 3>Say Saint Paul has a chip on his shoulder.

0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I don't, I have I have no idea we would.

0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.240
<v Speaker 1>We would have to ask somebody. But that's very true.

0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:45.240
<v Speaker 1>It's the Twin Cities, you know, really we should be

0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:47.920
<v Speaker 1>calling it the Twin Cities now. I'm looking forward to

0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.160
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the same stuff this year, just getting

0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:53.200
<v Speaker 1>out and traveling. I didn't do any traveling this past year.

0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.320
<v Speaker 1>I did one kind of quick trip out to Sylvie's

0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.680
<v Speaker 1>Valley Ranch in eastern Oregon. But yeah, really looking forward

0:14:59.720 --> 0:15:02.520
<v Speaker 1>to getting out to Philadelphia, which is a place I've

0:15:02.560 --> 0:15:05.720
<v Speaker 1>never played golf and has a ton of incredibly interesting

0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:10.040
<v Speaker 1>golf courses. I'm hoping this year we're not having an

0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.120
<v Speaker 1>event in Texas. But I'm hoping to get out to

0:15:13.760 --> 0:15:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Dallas and finally do a trip that I've been planning

0:15:16.120 --> 0:15:16.960
<v Speaker 1>for a while. There.

0:15:17.320 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 3>This was a COVID casualty.

0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:21.520
<v Speaker 1>This was a COVID I was gonna do it in

0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:24.040
<v Speaker 1>May of last year. I think, like April or May

0:15:24.040 --> 0:15:26.200
<v Speaker 1>of last year. I was just like, man, sorry, I

0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:29.680
<v Speaker 1>can't do this now, but would love to go see

0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:33.480
<v Speaker 1>some of the work that Calligan Golf Design UH and

0:15:34.160 --> 0:15:36.440
<v Speaker 1>associate Trey Kemp have been doing it some of the

0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:41.800
<v Speaker 1>public courses in the city at Stevens Park and Texas Course,

0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:43.960
<v Speaker 1>Squad Creek, Texas Rangers new build.

0:15:44.440 --> 0:15:48.080
<v Speaker 2>One of my favorite things about Texas of Dallas is

0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:52.200
<v Speaker 2>the propensity for professional sports teams to own golf courses.

0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:57.160
<v Speaker 1>Texas Rangers, and then and then there's there's yeah, yeah,

0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:03.040
<v Speaker 1>it's kind of hilarious. That's Jeff Browner course, right, Yeah.

0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:06.560
<v Speaker 1>And then and then like the don't the Astros basically

0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.880
<v Speaker 1>own Memorial Park. Memorial Park, now don't they? Maybe they

0:16:10.880 --> 0:16:11.440
<v Speaker 1>don't own it.

0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:14.600
<v Speaker 2>The event is yeah, I don't know exactly what it.

0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.800
<v Speaker 2>They obviously paid for a lot of that renovation. And

0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Texas Texas is a sneaky good public golf place like

0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.800
<v Speaker 2>Austin is just the worst public golf city maybe in America.

0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:32.200
<v Speaker 1>Though, but they even they have that historic you know,

0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:35.440
<v Speaker 1>maybe the design isn't isn't much anymore, but the historic

0:16:35.720 --> 0:16:37.440
<v Speaker 1>Lions municipal golf course.

0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.480
<v Speaker 2>It could be awesome if they ever let Ben Crenshaw

0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:44.400
<v Speaker 2>do his thing, you know, you think you'd have a legend.

0:16:44.560 --> 0:16:49.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, He's like, hey, I'll do this for free. Yeah,

0:16:49.440 --> 0:16:52.200
<v Speaker 1>you would, hope. But there's problems with the university, I guess.

0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:57.240
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, and housing housing down there is having having

0:16:57.320 --> 0:17:00.200
<v Speaker 2>Bensave that lived in Austin roughly ten years ago. I

0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.640
<v Speaker 2>really wish I had bought property in Austin ten years ago.

0:17:03.960 --> 0:17:05.359
<v Speaker 1>Everybody's moving there right now.

0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:06.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:17:06.600 --> 0:17:10.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. No. Texas and a lot of the cities in Texas, Dallas, Houston,

0:17:10.520 --> 0:17:16.119
<v Speaker 1>San Antonio there are really cool historic public courses. So

0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:19.040
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of cool stuff there, and it's not

0:17:19.280 --> 0:17:21.080
<v Speaker 1>so much on the private club side. There are plenty

0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.879
<v Speaker 1>of well regarded private clubs there as well. But I

0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:28.080
<v Speaker 1>think it's fairly unique among states where there's truly interesting

0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:31.679
<v Speaker 1>architectural work going on on the public and municipal side,

0:17:31.760 --> 0:17:34.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of it done by call again Trey Camp

0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:37.160
<v Speaker 1>and I just like to go see what's going on there.

0:17:37.680 --> 0:17:39.639
<v Speaker 1>So do you want to move on to talking about

0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:41.960
<v Speaker 1>golf courses, talking about your sure, your.

0:17:41.880 --> 0:17:44.159
<v Speaker 2>Trip, let's talk about it. What do you want to

0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:45.119
<v Speaker 2>talk about for Kiwa?

0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:48.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, let's start with Kiwa before we get your thoughts

0:17:48.720 --> 0:17:50.480
<v Speaker 1>on the golf course. You got to go see the

0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.000
<v Speaker 1>golf course and photograph the golf course. Play it. But

0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Pete Dye has a great autobiography called Bury Me in

0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.200
<v Speaker 1>a Pop Bunker, And whenever I want to find out

0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:02.080
<v Speaker 1>more about a Pete die course, I go read one

0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.119
<v Speaker 1>of the chapters in there, the one on Q I

0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.800
<v Speaker 1>just read in the past couple of days, and it's

0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:09.680
<v Speaker 1>a lot of fun. There's a lot of interesting stuff

0:18:09.680 --> 0:18:12.800
<v Speaker 1>about it that people either didn't know or may have forgotten.

0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Ocean Course at Q initially was not supposed to host

0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:20.119
<v Speaker 1>the Ryder Cup in nineteen ninety one. You know, a

0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:22.600
<v Speaker 1>lot of people will remember the War by the Shore

0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:25.640
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety one Ryder Cup one of the best Ryder

0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Cups of all time, maybe kind of the beginning of

0:18:28.320 --> 0:18:31.520
<v Speaker 1>the modern Ryder Cup era, the modern kind of televised

0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.520
<v Speaker 1>Ryder Cup. In many ways, just great rivalries, awesome action.

0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:40.400
<v Speaker 1>Americans won narrowly, but initially the nineteen ninety one Ryder

0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.600
<v Speaker 1>Cup was supposed to be held at the Stadium course

0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:48.040
<v Speaker 1>at PGA West, which opened in nineteen eighty six. I'm

0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:49.919
<v Speaker 1>not sure it's ever been confirmed.

0:18:50.280 --> 0:18:53.360
<v Speaker 3>Why it's got to be the band, right, the player.

0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:58.679
<v Speaker 1>Van, I mean, who knows, Like nobody has gone on

0:18:58.720 --> 0:19:01.280
<v Speaker 1>the record is to why exactly it moved away from

0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:03.640
<v Speaker 1>PGA West or can I get.

0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:06.679
<v Speaker 2>Something off my chest real quick? You just triggered something

0:19:06.840 --> 0:19:08.960
<v Speaker 2>with what Web said the other day.

0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:14.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so Web Simpson is responding to the USGA's distance statement.

0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.760
<v Speaker 2>So he said this stuff about the distance, you know, like, oh,

0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:23.719
<v Speaker 2>we need better architecture. You know, he injected his thoughts

0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.959
<v Speaker 2>on what the architecture should be. I was thinking about this,

0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:29.400
<v Speaker 2>and this is the stuff I think about sometimes when

0:19:29.400 --> 0:19:33.479
<v Speaker 2>my shower is you know, this kind of ridiculousness. But

0:19:34.960 --> 0:19:38.840
<v Speaker 2>you know the thing is, every time somebody tries to

0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.920
<v Speaker 2>do something interesting or different, it gets like.

0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:42.960
<v Speaker 3>Banned from the tour.

0:19:43.320 --> 0:19:46.960
<v Speaker 2>Is absolutely so the players are saying it's the architect's

0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:49.120
<v Speaker 2>fault and they need to figure it out. But when

0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:54.240
<v Speaker 2>any architect presents something different, than the status quo. It

0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.560
<v Speaker 2>gets kicked off the tour or banned or changed. It's

0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:02.760
<v Speaker 2>absolutely ridiculous. And West is a perfect example. Now granted,

0:20:03.080 --> 0:20:06.119
<v Speaker 2>like the Developer, one of the hardest golf course ever

0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:09.520
<v Speaker 2>die built in and the players just bitch about it,

0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.720
<v Speaker 2>get it, get it banned from the tour. You know,

0:20:12.920 --> 0:20:16.240
<v Speaker 2>Gil Hans puts the Centrallite bucker at TPC Boston on

0:20:16.320 --> 0:20:21.000
<v Speaker 2>the twelfth hole jt All. The players complain, it gets

0:20:21.040 --> 0:20:22.120
<v Speaker 2>removed the next year.

0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:23.520
<v Speaker 1>They're never gonna be happy.

0:20:23.800 --> 0:20:26.240
<v Speaker 3>Trinity Forrest players complain.

0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.879
<v Speaker 2>The thread of them complaining they manipulate the course to

0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.560
<v Speaker 2>play completely the wrong way.

0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:34.159
<v Speaker 3>You know, they get raids.

0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:36.879
<v Speaker 2>It never plays the way it's supposed to. You know,

0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:40.760
<v Speaker 2>they have some venue issues, like with just location and stuff.

0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:44.720
<v Speaker 2>So anyways, Trinity Forrest is gone. It's just like it's

0:20:44.760 --> 0:20:49.000
<v Speaker 2>a repetitive thing. Anything that's different. These guys that are

0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:53.080
<v Speaker 2>obviously paid by equipment companies. There's a good reason why

0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:56.200
<v Speaker 2>the Frida Egg has never been sponsored by an equipment

0:20:56.240 --> 0:20:57.360
<v Speaker 2>company m HM.

0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.240
<v Speaker 3>Is because they tell you what to say.

0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:08.600
<v Speaker 2>You know, in this situation, this guys giving reasons in

0:21:09.200 --> 0:21:12.840
<v Speaker 2>the history of the reasoning is completely flawed, they complained

0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:17.159
<v Speaker 2>about whenever something's different, it goes even like Harbortown was

0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.840
<v Speaker 2>just the players hated it after the first year.

0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:25.000
<v Speaker 1>And these courses then get softened, right, which is clearly

0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:28.000
<v Speaker 1>what's happened at PGA West as well. Right. So too,

0:21:28.320 --> 0:21:30.800
<v Speaker 1>it's not just I mean, obviously the equipment has made

0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.119
<v Speaker 1>a difference in how the players play a place like

0:21:33.160 --> 0:21:36.480
<v Speaker 1>PGA West, but also it's not as hard as it

0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:39.800
<v Speaker 1>was when it opened. And so yeah, and Pete Dye

0:21:39.960 --> 0:21:44.040
<v Speaker 1>was trying to do this stuff in the seventies and eighties.

0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.480
<v Speaker 1>He was trying to build courses that challenged the best

0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:49.440
<v Speaker 1>golfers in the world, and he figured out a way

0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:51.600
<v Speaker 1>to do that. It's not the only way to do it,

0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.479
<v Speaker 1>but he figured out a way to do that where

0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:59.280
<v Speaker 1>there was an extreme emphasis on accuracy into the greens. Right,

0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:01.119
<v Speaker 1>You had to hit these little sections of the greens

0:22:01.119 --> 0:22:04.560
<v Speaker 1>to really have a chance of getting a birdie or

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:05.520
<v Speaker 1>in some cases.

0:22:05.240 --> 0:22:09.879
<v Speaker 2>A par and there's an angular accuracy component to.

0:22:09.760 --> 0:22:12.400
<v Speaker 1>It, absolutely, so you had to place your drive very

0:22:12.400 --> 0:22:15.680
<v Speaker 1>accurately in order to have a nice clear shot into

0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.600
<v Speaker 1>the green. This is what he was doing. He figured

0:22:18.600 --> 0:22:22.760
<v Speaker 1>out a way to not only challenge the physical skills

0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:25.399
<v Speaker 1>of players, but also challenge them mentally to kind of

0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:29.080
<v Speaker 1>get in their heads and force them to be tough

0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:31.360
<v Speaker 1>in order to win a golf tournament at his courses.

0:22:31.720 --> 0:22:34.960
<v Speaker 1>And it pissed them off, and they complained and they rebelled,

0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.040
<v Speaker 1>and the courses got softened, every single one of them,

0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.639
<v Speaker 1>and so you know, they're just You're never gonna make

0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.360
<v Speaker 1>them happy. But we'll see what goes on with Memorial Park.

0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:48.320
<v Speaker 1>For me, Tom Doaks renovation at Memorial Park, the host

0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:53.359
<v Speaker 1>of the Houston Open, is maybe the most interesting course

0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:56.080
<v Speaker 1>venue story right now on the PGA Tour. How are

0:22:56.119 --> 0:22:58.000
<v Speaker 1>players going to respond to that course? It seemed to

0:22:58.040 --> 0:22:59.880
<v Speaker 1>go pretty well the first year.

0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:03.520
<v Speaker 2>They had such perfect weather too. It played firm, you know,

0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:06.680
<v Speaker 2>like that's the always. I think the concern with anything

0:23:06.720 --> 0:23:11.000
<v Speaker 2>in Houston is rain and soft and god, they got

0:23:11.200 --> 0:23:13.880
<v Speaker 2>just beautiful weather in last November.

0:23:14.119 --> 0:23:15.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, for sure.

0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:17.240
<v Speaker 2>And I think the important thing too there with like

0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:21.240
<v Speaker 2>Memorial Park, is not judging a golf course anymore based

0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:24.480
<v Speaker 2>off of the scores they shoot. I would prefer and

0:23:24.760 --> 0:23:27.359
<v Speaker 2>I think there's a difference and needs to be a

0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:31.960
<v Speaker 2>clear delineation between what's hard and what's challenging and what

0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:35.359
<v Speaker 2>I think golf courses and setups should strive for is

0:23:35.520 --> 0:23:37.640
<v Speaker 2>challenge rather than hard.

0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:39.560
<v Speaker 3>You know, I think it's perfect.

0:23:39.720 --> 0:23:42.720
<v Speaker 2>Like a hard golf course that punishes you for missing

0:23:43.200 --> 0:23:45.560
<v Speaker 2>off the t five yards right or five yards left

0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:49.160
<v Speaker 2>of your target, that's hard. Is it challenging, It's it's

0:23:49.200 --> 0:23:51.760
<v Speaker 2>more it becomes more luck whether you pull the shot

0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:55.200
<v Speaker 2>off or not, you know, whether you hit it absolutely perfect.

0:23:55.520 --> 0:23:59.920
<v Speaker 2>Like challenging to me would be where it's an extreme

0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:03.760
<v Speaker 2>difficult shot, but if you pull it off and it's

0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:07.280
<v Speaker 2>very attainable to pull off, you reap a large reward.

0:24:07.960 --> 0:24:10.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And it can be a form of challenge. Can

0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:12.880
<v Speaker 1>be a player expects to make a birdie on a hole,

0:24:13.400 --> 0:24:15.680
<v Speaker 1>but it's really really hard to make a birdie.

0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 3>On a hole.

0:24:16.000 --> 0:24:18.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, And if you try to make a birdie on

0:24:18.600 --> 0:24:21.200
<v Speaker 1>the hole then and you fail, then you might make

0:24:21.200 --> 0:24:23.719
<v Speaker 1>a bogie. Those are the kinds of situations that are

0:24:23.760 --> 0:24:26.760
<v Speaker 1>really hard, of course, where you miss a fairway and

0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:30.280
<v Speaker 1>you're in big long rough and you have to lay

0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:32.680
<v Speaker 1>up in front of the green and try to get

0:24:32.760 --> 0:24:36.840
<v Speaker 1>up and down for par I don't know, like truly

0:24:36.960 --> 0:24:39.879
<v Speaker 1>how challenging that is. To use your nomenclature. If this

0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:42.440
<v Speaker 1>is what challenges if we're really trying to tax the

0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:45.680
<v Speaker 1>mental and strategic abilities of a player, I don't know

0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:48.000
<v Speaker 1>if that scenario where there's a penalty if you miss

0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 1>a fairway is particularly challenging for those guys. I don't

0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.520
<v Speaker 1>think they worry about that. I think there are other

0:24:53.880 --> 0:24:56.280
<v Speaker 1>things that they worry about on a golf course, and

0:24:56.320 --> 0:24:58.359
<v Speaker 1>they don't necessarily have to do with the score that

0:24:58.359 --> 0:25:00.800
<v Speaker 1>they're shooting, because they know as well everybody else that

0:25:00.840 --> 0:25:04.080
<v Speaker 1>scores a relative You're you're not trying to, you know,

0:25:04.400 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 1>just shoot a low score. You're trying to beat other people. Yeah,

0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:10.040
<v Speaker 1>and so you know, good good tour venues are the

0:25:10.119 --> 0:25:13.760
<v Speaker 1>ones where it is. It is very taxing in a

0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:17.639
<v Speaker 1>variety of ways to beat the other people, not just

0:25:17.680 --> 0:25:18.560
<v Speaker 1>to shoot a low score.

0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:22.080
<v Speaker 3>Look at that. We're way off, way off subject.

0:25:22.440 --> 0:25:26.000
<v Speaker 1>This is this is your specialty that the shotguns start

0:25:26.040 --> 0:25:29.800
<v Speaker 1>is slipping into the Friday podcast back to Kiwa. So

0:25:30.280 --> 0:25:34.200
<v Speaker 1>it went away from PGA West for reasons that were

0:25:34.280 --> 0:25:37.400
<v Speaker 1>never particularly clarified. In his book, Die says it has

0:25:37.440 --> 0:25:40.040
<v Speaker 1>something to do with the time zones, and that the

0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:43.000
<v Speaker 1>Eastern time zone is better for the Ryder Cup telecasts

0:25:43.000 --> 0:25:44.000
<v Speaker 1>than the Western time zone.

0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:46.800
<v Speaker 3>Whatever that doesn't seem like would be true.

0:25:48.400 --> 0:25:50.960
<v Speaker 1>It seemed the most reasonable explanation would seem to be

0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:55.960
<v Speaker 1>that the players absolutely hated PGA West and complain to

0:25:55.960 --> 0:25:58.840
<v Speaker 1>the PGA of America and it was moved away. But

0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:01.080
<v Speaker 1>it wasn't even moved away to a course that existed.

0:26:01.440 --> 0:26:03.959
<v Speaker 1>It was moved to a course that did not yet exist.

0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:07.119
<v Speaker 1>This decision was made in August nineteen eighty eight for

0:26:07.240 --> 0:26:10.560
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen ninety one Ryder Cup. In October nineteen ninety one.

0:26:11.040 --> 0:26:13.600
<v Speaker 2>Had any of the courses that the resort been built

0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:14.920
<v Speaker 2>that I don't know.

0:26:15.200 --> 0:26:17.119
<v Speaker 1>Was Kiah with it. I think there were golf courses

0:26:17.119 --> 0:26:20.280
<v Speaker 1>on the island before the Ocean course. I don't know

0:26:20.320 --> 0:26:23.359
<v Speaker 1>if they belonged to that resort necessarily, but in any case,

0:26:23.480 --> 0:26:27.080
<v Speaker 1>this was clearly a stunning property. I'll have you to

0:26:27.119 --> 0:26:29.919
<v Speaker 1>describe it in a second if it can, but you know,

0:26:30.160 --> 0:26:31.879
<v Speaker 1>this is how Dye puts it in his book. For

0:26:31.920 --> 0:26:34.600
<v Speaker 1>the first time in history, the heralded event, the Ryder Cup,

0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:37.280
<v Speaker 1>had been awarded to a course that did not exist,

0:26:37.600 --> 0:26:39.680
<v Speaker 1>and there was less than two years to build one

0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:42.159
<v Speaker 1>worthy of the event. All right. So the site was

0:26:42.240 --> 0:26:46.080
<v Speaker 1>Kiowa Island, a barrier island off the coast of South Carolina.

0:26:46.840 --> 0:26:49.800
<v Speaker 1>Having been there recently, Andy, could you just describe the

0:26:49.840 --> 0:26:51.359
<v Speaker 1>piece of land that this course sits on.

0:26:51.840 --> 0:26:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Oh, it's absolutely gorgeous. I being northerns we went down

0:26:57.200 --> 0:27:00.480
<v Speaker 2>there and we found like a rental house for cheap

0:27:00.560 --> 0:27:01.240
<v Speaker 2>on VRBO.

0:27:01.560 --> 0:27:02.600
<v Speaker 3>It's January.

0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:05.520
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a pretty not peak season for Kioa,

0:27:05.960 --> 0:27:08.359
<v Speaker 2>and I couldn't recommend the time of the year enough.

0:27:08.480 --> 0:27:10.879
<v Speaker 2>I know everybody likes going there when it's warmer, but

0:27:10.920 --> 0:27:14.720
<v Speaker 2>it's it's awesome. This is a side note from you

0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:18.400
<v Speaker 2>know what you asked me. But the dog it's it's

0:27:18.520 --> 0:27:22.119
<v Speaker 2>leash free on the beaches. Our dog loved it and

0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:24.439
<v Speaker 2>the beach is one of the coolest beaches in the

0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:27.720
<v Speaker 2>world because it's hard packed. I was not put up

0:27:27.760 --> 0:27:30.159
<v Speaker 2>by the resort, by the way. This was all, you know,

0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:34.000
<v Speaker 2>funded by yours truly. But you know, so I'm not

0:27:34.040 --> 0:27:37.080
<v Speaker 2>saying this to say this, but God, I just want

0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:40.040
<v Speaker 2>to go on a vacation to Kioa, play a little

0:27:40.080 --> 0:27:42.880
<v Speaker 2>bit of golf, maybe not all on at the resort,

0:27:43.160 --> 0:27:47.200
<v Speaker 2>maybe just maybe one round drive back into Charleston.

0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:48.000
<v Speaker 3>One of the coolest things.

0:27:48.040 --> 0:27:52.040
<v Speaker 2>It's really close to Charleston, but anyways, the island is

0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:55.119
<v Speaker 2>just like the most stunning place. So you have obviously

0:27:55.160 --> 0:27:58.879
<v Speaker 2>the low country, the Charleston tidal marshes, and then you

0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:01.920
<v Speaker 2>have the ocean, and the golf course is this thin

0:28:02.040 --> 0:28:07.000
<v Speaker 2>strip of land that plays basically between these stunning tidal

0:28:07.080 --> 0:28:10.720
<v Speaker 2>marshes that as somebody that doesn't see them every day,

0:28:10.840 --> 0:28:13.520
<v Speaker 2>I'm like mesmerized by them. I think they're so beautiful.

0:28:13.640 --> 0:28:17.879
<v Speaker 2>They get that kind of like reddish brown color. I'm colorblind,

0:28:17.920 --> 0:28:19.760
<v Speaker 2>so if it's a different color, you know.

0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:22.399
<v Speaker 1>I think you're right. I think that's about what the

0:28:22.840 --> 0:28:26.280
<v Speaker 1>amazing like variety of textures and colors in these marshes.

0:28:26.320 --> 0:28:27.080
<v Speaker 1>They're just beautiful.

0:28:27.359 --> 0:28:29.800
<v Speaker 2>And so the front nine kind of plays mostly through that,

0:28:30.000 --> 0:28:33.000
<v Speaker 2>and then it turns when it turns, and it plays.

0:28:33.400 --> 0:28:35.760
<v Speaker 2>The way the course is routed is more similar to

0:28:35.800 --> 0:28:38.520
<v Speaker 2>a Lynk's course than a lot of things in America,

0:28:38.600 --> 0:28:41.600
<v Speaker 2>where it plays really like out and back on the

0:28:41.640 --> 0:28:45.520
<v Speaker 2>front and then out and back on the back nine.

0:28:45.800 --> 0:28:49.760
<v Speaker 2>And in both cases, the out portion is along the

0:28:49.840 --> 0:28:53.720
<v Speaker 2>marshland and then the back plays along the beach, So

0:28:54.040 --> 0:28:56.720
<v Speaker 2>you know, literally sand dune beach, and I guess one

0:28:56.720 --> 0:28:59.680
<v Speaker 2>of the things in talking to our caddies, had great caddies,

0:29:00.400 --> 0:29:03.480
<v Speaker 2>was they had recently cut down. They've cut down a

0:29:03.520 --> 0:29:05.880
<v Speaker 2>lot in Native so you can see the ocean from

0:29:05.920 --> 0:29:10.000
<v Speaker 2>so many more holes that are previously the marsh had

0:29:10.040 --> 0:29:13.600
<v Speaker 2>grown up a lot and restricted the view. But there

0:29:13.640 --> 0:29:16.880
<v Speaker 2>are some really great golf holes out there. It's really hard.

0:29:17.280 --> 0:29:20.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to sugarcoat it, but it's not. It's

0:29:20.800 --> 0:29:24.840
<v Speaker 2>hard because you're just playing in a really strong wind,

0:29:25.000 --> 0:29:29.040
<v Speaker 2>even if it's calm for four straight hours, and it

0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:33.200
<v Speaker 2>just gets you eventually right. And the greens are pushed up,

0:29:33.280 --> 0:29:35.800
<v Speaker 2>so like you have to hit really good shots to

0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:39.760
<v Speaker 2>these elevated greens or else you're dead, Like you're just

0:29:39.920 --> 0:29:43.600
<v Speaker 2>in bad spots. And so playing the combination of wind

0:29:43.640 --> 0:29:46.280
<v Speaker 2>with pushed up greens is kind of what you talked

0:29:46.280 --> 0:29:50.320
<v Speaker 2>about with Die in general, like it makes you have

0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:53.600
<v Speaker 2>to be so precise with your irons in order to

0:29:53.640 --> 0:29:56.480
<v Speaker 2>play well. And then you know there's a decent amount

0:29:56.480 --> 0:29:58.800
<v Speaker 2>of with but if you're spraying it, you're gonna lose

0:29:58.800 --> 0:29:59.560
<v Speaker 2>some golf balls.

0:30:00.080 --> 0:30:02.200
<v Speaker 1>If you're if you're off of the golf course, then

0:30:02.920 --> 0:30:04.360
<v Speaker 1>there's basically no point.

0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:07.880
<v Speaker 2>There's gaters and snakes, yeah, which I have no interest in.

0:30:08.120 --> 0:30:10.960
<v Speaker 2>So like, if my ball goes all right, I'm not

0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:13.360
<v Speaker 2>going to go in there, all right.

0:30:13.480 --> 0:30:17.680
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, amazing piece of land, but probably a pretty

0:30:17.680 --> 0:30:19.200
<v Speaker 1>difficult piece of land to build on.

0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:20.080
<v Speaker 3>It had to be.

0:30:20.280 --> 0:30:23.520
<v Speaker 1>It's marshy, it's not like immedia. It's not like you

0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:26.480
<v Speaker 1>can just grow grass and have a golf course. You

0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:29.760
<v Speaker 1>had to really do some engineering here. So this is

0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:33.120
<v Speaker 1>how Pete Dye puts it. When PGA officials first visited

0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:38.320
<v Speaker 1>the site for the course, they almost threw up. So

0:30:38.360 --> 0:30:40.160
<v Speaker 1>it was just like not a golf course as of

0:30:40.280 --> 0:30:43.040
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty nine, you know, and the Ryder Cup was

0:30:43.040 --> 0:30:45.680
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety one. They began clearing the land in

0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:50.600
<v Speaker 1>July nineteen eighty nine. Then Hurricane Hugo hit in September

0:30:50.840 --> 0:30:55.040
<v Speaker 1>nineteen eighty nine and completely transformed the landscape, turned it

0:30:55.080 --> 0:30:59.440
<v Speaker 1>into a completely different place. Basically, here's how again Die

0:30:59.440 --> 0:31:02.920
<v Speaker 1>puts it. All our marking stakes were blown away and

0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:05.120
<v Speaker 1>many of the oaks on the property were wind burned

0:31:05.200 --> 0:31:08.560
<v Speaker 1>so badly they never recovered where there had been one

0:31:08.640 --> 0:31:11.920
<v Speaker 1>continuous sand dune along a two mile stretch before Hugo.

0:31:12.440 --> 0:31:15.520
<v Speaker 1>There were now many smaller ones six to eight feet apart.

0:31:16.240 --> 0:31:18.600
<v Speaker 1>Nearly every single person who visited the site told us

0:31:18.920 --> 0:31:21.360
<v Speaker 1>that the course would never be ready for the Ryder Cup.

0:31:22.480 --> 0:31:25.400
<v Speaker 1>So I can imagine that he just sort of had

0:31:25.440 --> 0:31:28.400
<v Speaker 1>to completely change his design plans mid stream. Now, he

0:31:28.520 --> 0:31:30.880
<v Speaker 1>dies pretty well suited to this, because that's what he does.

0:31:31.360 --> 0:31:36.680
<v Speaker 2>Also, he'd never had design plan never. I've heard numerous

0:31:37.080 --> 0:31:41.000
<v Speaker 2>numerous tales of him, you know, giving just like five

0:31:41.080 --> 0:31:44.880
<v Speaker 2>year old design plans for a design like design design

0:31:44.920 --> 0:31:47.880
<v Speaker 2>plans for somewhere in a completely different city and state

0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:52.040
<v Speaker 2>to satisfy local governments that asked for a design plan,

0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:56.400
<v Speaker 2>just giving completely opposite design plans for somewhere else.

0:31:57.040 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 1>So he was well suited to this. Like, you know,

0:31:59.080 --> 0:32:02.360
<v Speaker 1>the site got re arranged by Hurricane Hugo, and he

0:32:02.640 --> 0:32:05.240
<v Speaker 1>obviously had to adjust to that. But this is kind

0:32:05.240 --> 0:32:08.560
<v Speaker 1>of what Die did anyway in his builds. So it

0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:11.240
<v Speaker 1>was six weeks before the Ryder Cup. Ryder Cup players

0:32:11.320 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 1>visited the course, Lanny Watkins says, no way this course

0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:17.480
<v Speaker 1>will be ready for the Ryder Cup, And as Dye

0:32:17.520 --> 0:32:20.480
<v Speaker 1>puts it, Lanny's comments were mild in comparison to those

0:32:20.520 --> 0:32:24.120
<v Speaker 1>of other Ryder Cup hopefuls, including Tom Kite, who abandoned

0:32:24.120 --> 0:32:26.840
<v Speaker 1>his car when it got stuck in the sand near

0:32:26.840 --> 0:32:33.000
<v Speaker 1>the clubhouse site. In any case, it was a hectic

0:32:33.080 --> 0:32:36.120
<v Speaker 1>build obviously, and it had to be done really really quickly.

0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:38.680
<v Speaker 1>But even though they did it in a short amount

0:32:38.680 --> 0:32:42.840
<v Speaker 1>of time, they used some pretty innovative methods of recreating dunes,

0:32:43.480 --> 0:32:46.440
<v Speaker 1>putting vegetation back on the dunes because the hurricane had

0:32:46.440 --> 0:32:51.080
<v Speaker 1>stripped everything, draining the course without contaminating the saltwater marshes.

0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:54.040
<v Speaker 1>You know, this is one of those golf course projects

0:32:54.080 --> 0:32:56.920
<v Speaker 1>in the modern era that had a lot of environmental

0:32:56.960 --> 0:33:00.920
<v Speaker 1>restrictions that's become a lot more common now. But they

0:33:00.960 --> 0:33:03.960
<v Speaker 1>had to come up with a whole drainage method to

0:33:04.040 --> 0:33:06.920
<v Speaker 1>make sure that chemicals from the golf course did not

0:33:07.120 --> 0:33:10.960
<v Speaker 1>reach the marshes. And so basically they built this huge

0:33:11.000 --> 0:33:14.440
<v Speaker 1>system of pipes where the water would go into these

0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:18.240
<v Speaker 1>drainage these catch basins and would go down into these

0:33:18.240 --> 0:33:21.360
<v Speaker 1>pipes and then be recycled for irrigation. And so in

0:33:21.400 --> 0:33:23.840
<v Speaker 1>many ways, this is a very modern project. You see

0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:27.040
<v Speaker 1>a lot of the kind of environmental measures that current

0:33:27.040 --> 0:33:30.320
<v Speaker 1>golf course projects almost always have to take into account.

0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Being a factor here as well a couple of other

0:33:33.400 --> 0:33:35.920
<v Speaker 1>details about the design. Alice Dye is the one who

0:33:36.000 --> 0:33:39.320
<v Speaker 1>suggested raising many of the holes so that players could

0:33:39.320 --> 0:33:42.200
<v Speaker 1>have unobstructed views of the ocean. If they had just

0:33:42.280 --> 0:33:44.600
<v Speaker 1>kept it at the level that it was before, you

0:33:44.640 --> 0:33:46.719
<v Speaker 1>wouldn't have been able to see over stuff. And even now,

0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:50.400
<v Speaker 1>as you mentioned, when the vegetation in the marshes gets

0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:53.479
<v Speaker 1>too high, you can see over them. But they actually

0:33:53.480 --> 0:33:55.520
<v Speaker 1>built a lot of those fairways up so that players

0:33:55.560 --> 0:33:58.600
<v Speaker 1>could see the ocean. But what this ended up doing

0:33:59.160 --> 0:34:01.000
<v Speaker 1>is making the golf course quite a bit more difficult

0:34:01.040 --> 0:34:04.640
<v Speaker 1>because you're more exposed to the wind when you're higher.

0:34:05.120 --> 0:34:06.080
<v Speaker 3>The wind's crazy.

0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:08.640
<v Speaker 1>Wind's crazy, and that's and Die talks about that what

0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:11.120
<v Speaker 1>makes it crazy is not only its strength, but the

0:34:11.160 --> 0:34:13.920
<v Speaker 1>fact that it switches direction. Yes, it goes in opposite

0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:16.600
<v Speaker 1>directions on different days. And he says, by the way,

0:34:16.600 --> 0:34:19.160
<v Speaker 1>that this is what made the nineteen ninety one Ryder

0:34:19.200 --> 0:34:22.440
<v Speaker 1>Cup so difficult. It was because the wind was blowing

0:34:22.480 --> 0:34:25.000
<v Speaker 1>one way during the practice rounds, and then on the

0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:27.640
<v Speaker 1>first day of competition it switched directions, and so players

0:34:28.200 --> 0:34:31.480
<v Speaker 1>plans were completely different. Holes that played into the wind

0:34:31.480 --> 0:34:34.960
<v Speaker 1>were playing downwind, and holes that played downwind were playing

0:34:34.960 --> 0:34:37.160
<v Speaker 1>into the wind. And when the wind is as strong

0:34:37.200 --> 0:34:40.800
<v Speaker 1>as it is on Kiawah Island, it just completely changes

0:34:40.840 --> 0:34:43.040
<v Speaker 1>the golf hole, turns it into something totally different.

0:34:43.360 --> 0:34:45.640
<v Speaker 2>And I think this is you know, I had been

0:34:45.719 --> 0:34:48.200
<v Speaker 2>to Kiwa in so long, and I remember the Rory

0:34:48.400 --> 0:34:53.000
<v Speaker 2>Pga a few years ago, and I remember I was,

0:34:53.040 --> 0:34:55.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, I wasn't in golf media. Then I remember

0:34:55.320 --> 0:34:57.479
<v Speaker 2>kind of being in a blah because, you know, Rory

0:34:57.600 --> 0:34:59.920
<v Speaker 2>ran away. And I think that wind does not get

0:35:00.280 --> 0:35:05.799
<v Speaker 2>enough credit because he absolutely dusted a field on a

0:35:05.840 --> 0:35:09.560
<v Speaker 2>golf course that was really hard for everybody, but Rory,

0:35:09.880 --> 0:35:14.279
<v Speaker 2>like there were not many players under par, he ran

0:35:14.320 --> 0:35:16.760
<v Speaker 2>away with it. And I think I was a little blind.

0:35:16.880 --> 0:35:19.400
<v Speaker 2>I remember, you know, I was at high schooler. I

0:35:19.400 --> 0:35:21.319
<v Speaker 2>didn't remember that much. I didn't know what I was

0:35:21.360 --> 0:35:23.840
<v Speaker 2>looking for. But when I went out there, I you know,

0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:26.840
<v Speaker 2>after playing it, I was like, Wow, I'm really excited

0:35:26.880 --> 0:35:29.120
<v Speaker 2>about this. And one of the reasons I'm really excited

0:35:29.360 --> 0:35:32.160
<v Speaker 2>is because of the wind. And I think, just in

0:35:32.200 --> 0:35:36.520
<v Speaker 2>this modern era of golf, conditions have to be so perfect,

0:35:36.719 --> 0:35:40.840
<v Speaker 2>and really, if you don't have wind and you don't

0:35:40.840 --> 0:35:44.400
<v Speaker 2>have firm. It's gonna be the professional golf we watched

0:35:44.480 --> 0:35:47.680
<v Speaker 2>week in week out where wedges just stop and everything

0:35:47.680 --> 0:35:50.640
<v Speaker 2>and you don't see the shot making as much because

0:35:50.719 --> 0:35:54.239
<v Speaker 2>they can play driving range golf. And I think one

0:35:54.280 --> 0:35:57.640
<v Speaker 2>of the things with especially you know versus in August

0:35:57.680 --> 0:36:02.719
<v Speaker 2>PGA in May, you get more variable winds out there,

0:36:02.880 --> 0:36:05.640
<v Speaker 2>and you get stronger winds in May than you get

0:36:05.640 --> 0:36:09.920
<v Speaker 2>in August. And that is what I kind of walked away.

0:36:10.080 --> 0:36:15.360
<v Speaker 2>It's really a compelling design. It's got really some really

0:36:15.400 --> 0:36:19.000
<v Speaker 2>neat holes, some really fun holes, and some holes that

0:36:19.680 --> 0:36:23.000
<v Speaker 2>you know for people that like watching guys kind of scirm,

0:36:23.040 --> 0:36:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Like there are some very very uncomfortable t shots out there,

0:36:26.920 --> 0:36:31.000
<v Speaker 2>and like you can play a perfect round of golf

0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:34.200
<v Speaker 2>and run into an eight pretty much anywhere on that

0:36:34.239 --> 0:36:38.280
<v Speaker 2>golf course. And I think that is something that people

0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:43.560
<v Speaker 2>loved about Shinnakock is the the opportunity for a twenty

0:36:43.600 --> 0:36:46.120
<v Speaker 2>car pile up at any point in the round. And

0:36:46.160 --> 0:36:48.960
<v Speaker 2>we saw the best thing about Shinnacock was we saw

0:36:49.000 --> 0:36:52.000
<v Speaker 2>it right out of the gates on Thursday, people making

0:36:52.080 --> 0:36:55.480
<v Speaker 2>sevens from centers at fairway. At Atkiwa, you could make

0:36:55.520 --> 0:36:58.880
<v Speaker 2>a seven all over the board there and I think

0:36:59.080 --> 0:37:03.280
<v Speaker 2>with the wind being that added spice that we don't

0:37:03.280 --> 0:37:06.640
<v Speaker 2>get a lot at American Majors is something that I'm

0:37:06.680 --> 0:37:09.840
<v Speaker 2>really excited about now, you know, if we wanted to

0:37:09.880 --> 0:37:14.080
<v Speaker 2>get into critiques, I wish that Kiowa would go back

0:37:14.120 --> 0:37:17.280
<v Speaker 2>to a bermuda grass and maybe allow in the winter

0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:19.799
<v Speaker 2>for it to go dormant and play more links like

0:37:20.360 --> 0:37:23.520
<v Speaker 2>let it go dormant, like country Club at Charleston down

0:37:23.520 --> 0:37:26.680
<v Speaker 2>the street goes dormant. I would play there all the

0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:29.960
<v Speaker 2>time in dormancy because it would play so fun and

0:37:30.080 --> 0:37:32.920
<v Speaker 2>fast and different if they allowed it to go dormant.

0:37:33.000 --> 0:37:34.720
<v Speaker 3>Rather they've got past palum.

0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:37.440
<v Speaker 2>So it's really the one thing that kind of stinks

0:37:37.480 --> 0:37:39.839
<v Speaker 2>is it's a slow grass and it gets a lot

0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:40.200
<v Speaker 2>of water.

0:37:40.400 --> 0:37:42.920
<v Speaker 1>So is it slow around the greens too, like on

0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:45.560
<v Speaker 1>the approaches to the greens and stuff like that. Is yeah.

0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:48.080
<v Speaker 2>So it's the one thing though, is the greens are

0:37:48.080 --> 0:37:50.359
<v Speaker 2>all built up, so it's not a place that you're

0:37:50.400 --> 0:37:52.800
<v Speaker 2>going to be running the ball up for the most

0:37:52.800 --> 0:37:56.399
<v Speaker 2>part anyways. So I will say that it's just more

0:37:56.440 --> 0:37:59.520
<v Speaker 2>off the tea. It would play so much different with

0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:01.640
<v Speaker 2>fast of faster grass.

0:38:01.840 --> 0:38:05.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I mean in Pete Dye's career. There's this

0:38:05.920 --> 0:38:10.560
<v Speaker 1>interesting thread where clearly he was inspired by the links

0:38:10.719 --> 0:38:15.040
<v Speaker 1>of Scotland and Ireland, and he wanted to recreate some

0:38:15.280 --> 0:38:18.600
<v Speaker 1>aspects of that style of golf course in the United States,

0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:22.120
<v Speaker 1>and he brought certain elements that he saw over there here.

0:38:23.040 --> 0:38:26.040
<v Speaker 1>And when he was building Kiowa Island, he was quite

0:38:26.040 --> 0:38:29.880
<v Speaker 1>aware of trying to emulate the links. He wanted to

0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:34.400
<v Speaker 1>leave greens open to approaches. He knew there was this wind,

0:38:34.440 --> 0:38:37.080
<v Speaker 1>He had this out and back routing idea, these two

0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:42.200
<v Speaker 1>loops for the nines, and so there are some aspects

0:38:42.239 --> 0:38:46.319
<v Speaker 1>of the course that vaguely recall the links, but in

0:38:46.360 --> 0:38:49.799
<v Speaker 1>some essential ways on this course and on pretty much

0:38:49.840 --> 0:38:54.040
<v Speaker 1>every other Die course, he didn't quite get the links feel,

0:38:54.719 --> 0:38:58.800
<v Speaker 1>mostly because his courses are pretty much aerial, and that's

0:38:58.840 --> 0:39:02.160
<v Speaker 1>maybe the most essential thing about the links, to be fair.

0:39:02.200 --> 0:39:05.160
<v Speaker 2>He lived in the aerial technology though, like you know,

0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:09.840
<v Speaker 2>and as much as we romanticize the links and running

0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:13.400
<v Speaker 2>the ball up, you know, for especially what he was

0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:16.200
<v Speaker 2>oft in tasked, which you know in this case was

0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:19.279
<v Speaker 2>hosting a professional event. It was an aerial game at

0:39:19.280 --> 0:39:19.680
<v Speaker 2>that point.

0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:24.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So you mentioned some that the t shots and

0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:28.120
<v Speaker 1>probably the approaches to are really visually uncomfortable. Could you

0:39:28.200 --> 0:39:30.120
<v Speaker 1>say more about that? How does he do that?

0:39:30.520 --> 0:39:34.520
<v Speaker 2>It's just angles that he sets you with and decisions right,

0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:38.080
<v Speaker 2>you know. Thirteen is a perfect example. And I think

0:39:38.400 --> 0:39:43.160
<v Speaker 2>I think Jim Furick ruined around here and maybe the

0:39:43.280 --> 0:39:46.080
<v Speaker 2>last PGA, I think he made like an eight or

0:39:46.080 --> 0:39:48.880
<v Speaker 2>something and he played like just a flawless round of golf,

0:39:48.920 --> 0:39:51.400
<v Speaker 2>and then he made a seven or eight here. I

0:39:51.600 --> 0:39:54.320
<v Speaker 2>myself made an eight here and I just was standing

0:39:54.360 --> 0:39:55.200
<v Speaker 2>on the tea box.

0:39:56.480 --> 0:39:57.759
<v Speaker 3>You know. It's a middle ish.

0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:01.319
<v Speaker 2>Length part four and for me, I was playing into

0:40:01.360 --> 0:40:04.640
<v Speaker 2>the wind. And so you want to hit driver, You've

0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:08.440
<v Speaker 2>got bunkers on the left and a diagonal hazard down

0:40:08.520 --> 0:40:12.160
<v Speaker 2>the right, and the diagonal nature of it is just

0:40:12.640 --> 0:40:15.120
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the thing that Die did so well,

0:40:15.400 --> 0:40:19.319
<v Speaker 2>is the use of these angles where it just makes

0:40:19.360 --> 0:40:22.000
<v Speaker 2>you uncomfortable because you know, if you don't hit a

0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:25.640
<v Speaker 2>cut on that t shot, you're going in the bunkers.

0:40:26.040 --> 0:40:28.200
<v Speaker 2>But if you over, if you hit too big of

0:40:28.200 --> 0:40:31.040
<v Speaker 2>a cut, you're going in the water. But then you

0:40:31.080 --> 0:40:33.000
<v Speaker 2>could take them all out of play and hit like

0:40:33.040 --> 0:40:36.319
<v Speaker 2>an iron and a lay back short, but then you're

0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:39.600
<v Speaker 2>left with like a mid iron into a really small

0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:43.360
<v Speaker 2>green that's angled again with water. So it just puts

0:40:43.360 --> 0:40:46.080
<v Speaker 2>you in a position where you don't feel like you

0:40:46.360 --> 0:40:50.600
<v Speaker 2>ever are winning right with a decision. If you make

0:40:50.800 --> 0:40:54.840
<v Speaker 2>one decision, it's going to leave you with a tougher

0:40:55.840 --> 0:40:58.879
<v Speaker 2>question the next time around. You know, if you take

0:40:58.920 --> 0:41:02.160
<v Speaker 2>the safe decision, then you're gonna have a tougher question

0:41:02.239 --> 0:41:04.839
<v Speaker 2>the next time around. If you push it, you bring

0:41:04.920 --> 0:41:07.600
<v Speaker 2>in all kinds of risk. And I think that is

0:41:07.719 --> 0:41:11.880
<v Speaker 2>just a general characteristic that flows throughout the golf course. Obviously,

0:41:11.920 --> 0:41:15.240
<v Speaker 2>pins can change the way you play them in the wind.

0:41:15.760 --> 0:41:19.279
<v Speaker 2>The wind is such a big factor where if a

0:41:19.480 --> 0:41:21.799
<v Speaker 2>t shot doesn't fit your eye and then and then

0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:24.760
<v Speaker 2>it's blowing in a direction that makes it even worse.

0:41:25.080 --> 0:41:28.440
<v Speaker 2>You're just standing on a tea box feeling like I

0:41:28.560 --> 0:41:31.560
<v Speaker 2>have to hit this perfectly or else I'm I'm screwed.

0:41:31.760 --> 0:41:35.160
<v Speaker 2>And I think you know, obviously, professional golfers are way

0:41:35.200 --> 0:41:37.960
<v Speaker 2>better than I am, and they feel differently about this,

0:41:38.120 --> 0:41:40.719
<v Speaker 2>But I think it will put them and we saw

0:41:40.719 --> 0:41:42.800
<v Speaker 2>it like if you watch The War on the Shore,

0:41:42.880 --> 0:41:45.600
<v Speaker 2>which is a great little golf film on the Golf Channel.

0:41:45.960 --> 0:41:46.480
<v Speaker 3>I caught it.

0:41:46.880 --> 0:41:49.480
<v Speaker 2>I caught it a couple of weeks ago, one early

0:41:49.520 --> 0:41:51.680
<v Speaker 2>in the morning, I like turn on the TV in

0:41:51.719 --> 0:41:54.799
<v Speaker 2>my office and it was just randomly on and my

0:41:54.880 --> 0:41:57.200
<v Speaker 2>work day didn't start for an hour later because I

0:41:57.200 --> 0:41:58.080
<v Speaker 2>sat and watched it.

0:41:58.440 --> 0:42:02.920
<v Speaker 3>And you know, these guys, the wind just gave them fits.

0:42:02.920 --> 0:42:05.399
<v Speaker 2>And obviously they were playing a little bit different technology,

0:42:05.719 --> 0:42:08.000
<v Speaker 2>especially the spin near golf ball. And I think that's

0:42:08.040 --> 0:42:12.120
<v Speaker 2>something that gets missed, is like how little wind hits

0:42:12.160 --> 0:42:15.239
<v Speaker 2>these golf balls of these players. And I've noticed it

0:42:15.320 --> 0:42:18.359
<v Speaker 2>just from when I played growing up, how much it's

0:42:18.440 --> 0:42:23.200
<v Speaker 2>changed to now. But that wind, it just makes all

0:42:23.239 --> 0:42:27.400
<v Speaker 2>these shots with trouble places, it makes you bail out.

0:42:27.520 --> 0:42:29.000
<v Speaker 3>And the case of the War.

0:42:28.880 --> 0:42:31.319
<v Speaker 2>On the shore, a lot of guys were talking about

0:42:31.360 --> 0:42:34.200
<v Speaker 2>the seventeenth hole, which is a long part three and

0:42:34.719 --> 0:42:38.439
<v Speaker 2>it was playing into the wind and blowing to the right,

0:42:38.600 --> 0:42:41.560
<v Speaker 2>which water is short right of this long par three,

0:42:41.960 --> 0:42:45.319
<v Speaker 2>and players were just like aiming at sand dunes left

0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:49.600
<v Speaker 2>of the green, like sand dunes with thick rough grass,

0:42:49.800 --> 0:42:52.600
<v Speaker 2>praying to get the ball on the land, you know.

0:42:52.680 --> 0:42:55.239
<v Speaker 2>And that's the things that this golf course can do

0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:58.359
<v Speaker 2>to you, is that you look at shots and are

0:42:58.480 --> 0:43:02.080
<v Speaker 2>just hoping that the ball land on ground.

0:43:02.000 --> 0:43:05.160
<v Speaker 1>And the severity of the hazards plays a role here too, because,

0:43:05.160 --> 0:43:08.120
<v Speaker 1>as you said earlier, if you're in those hazards, it's over.

0:43:08.520 --> 0:43:10.640
<v Speaker 1>There's no recovery, and you're aware of that when you're

0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:11.239
<v Speaker 1>making the shot.

0:43:11.680 --> 0:43:14.680
<v Speaker 2>The other thing, too, with the angular nature of them,

0:43:14.960 --> 0:43:16.719
<v Speaker 2>is a lot of times if you hit them into

0:43:16.800 --> 0:43:19.879
<v Speaker 2>these hazards, it's not like you get to drop up

0:43:19.920 --> 0:43:23.680
<v Speaker 2>by where it crossed because you crossed off the tee

0:43:24.200 --> 0:43:28.560
<v Speaker 2>because they're angled, so your ball may never cross over ground,

0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:30.040
<v Speaker 2>so it's like an out of bounds.

0:43:30.320 --> 0:43:33.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you mentioned the war on the shore. We

0:43:33.080 --> 0:43:36.800
<v Speaker 1>didn't really even conclude the story about the building of Q. Yeah,

0:43:36.840 --> 0:43:41.399
<v Speaker 1>it opened, it worked. It was they managed to get

0:43:41.400 --> 0:43:43.800
<v Speaker 1>the golf course done and have it host that tournament.

0:43:44.640 --> 0:43:46.279
<v Speaker 1>And it seems to me that even though it was

0:43:46.320 --> 0:43:50.040
<v Speaker 1>an extraordinarily hard course and guys were faced with the

0:43:50.120 --> 0:43:52.880
<v Speaker 1>kinds of shots that you're describing, it seems like they

0:43:53.600 --> 0:43:54.800
<v Speaker 1>liked the course generally.

0:43:55.440 --> 0:43:58.680
<v Speaker 2>I think they liked it. It's fun to watch that event,

0:43:58.840 --> 0:44:01.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, just so much a change with golf. The

0:44:01.680 --> 0:44:04.000
<v Speaker 2>bay the ball hit the ground and moved in that

0:44:04.120 --> 0:44:08.120
<v Speaker 2>event was really cool, and obviously it was Bermuda grass then,

0:44:09.040 --> 0:44:11.920
<v Speaker 2>but you know, I think they for the most part

0:44:12.000 --> 0:44:17.520
<v Speaker 2>liked it. They all thought it was extraordinarily difficult. One

0:44:17.560 --> 0:44:20.000
<v Speaker 2>of the things is like it is a perfect match

0:44:20.080 --> 0:44:23.640
<v Speaker 2>play golf course, and I wish a Ryder Cup would

0:44:23.640 --> 0:44:25.640
<v Speaker 2>ever would go back to it, but I think for

0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:30.600
<v Speaker 2>business reasons it won't. I think infrastructure is an issue obviously,

0:44:30.680 --> 0:44:34.360
<v Speaker 2>with environmental and titled marshes and not enough space for

0:44:34.400 --> 0:44:37.520
<v Speaker 2>grand stands, you know, because the Ryder Cup is way

0:44:37.520 --> 0:44:40.279
<v Speaker 2>bigger than the PGA in terms of a setup, so

0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:44.240
<v Speaker 2>unfortunately like it it would be such an awesome Ryder

0:44:44.239 --> 0:44:48.880
<v Speaker 2>Cup host because of that. The variance on holes can

0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:52.680
<v Speaker 2>be so great. You know where good shots are rewarded

0:44:53.120 --> 0:44:57.040
<v Speaker 2>very heavily there and you know, make you can score

0:44:57.280 --> 0:45:01.480
<v Speaker 2>out there. But scoring for eighteen hole holes is the challenge,

0:45:01.640 --> 0:45:02.920
<v Speaker 2>especially when the wind's up.

0:45:03.480 --> 0:45:05.399
<v Speaker 1>Are there any other holes that stand out to you?

0:45:05.400 --> 0:45:07.480
<v Speaker 1>You talked about the thirteenth, what else.

0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:12.000
<v Speaker 2>The third hole? These are inland holes. The ocean holes

0:45:12.000 --> 0:45:16.040
<v Speaker 2>are spectacular, they're beautiful holes, and they all have strategic interest.

0:45:16.120 --> 0:45:20.120
<v Speaker 2>But the third hole is a really cool short par

0:45:20.320 --> 0:45:23.640
<v Speaker 2>for It's probably about three hundred and fifty yards and

0:45:24.040 --> 0:45:26.759
<v Speaker 2>it's got this nice little ridge that it plays up

0:45:26.760 --> 0:45:27.200
<v Speaker 2>and over.

0:45:27.640 --> 0:45:29.680
<v Speaker 3>There are two little trees short of the green.

0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:32.880
<v Speaker 2>But I'm really compelled to see what players do because

0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:36.560
<v Speaker 2>if it's playing downwind, it's very drivable for a lot

0:45:36.560 --> 0:45:39.840
<v Speaker 2>of the longer hitters. But the green is extremely small

0:45:40.000 --> 0:45:42.959
<v Speaker 2>and it's raised really high up. It's almost like an hole,

0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:46.520
<v Speaker 2>almost volcano like, and it's green. But it you know

0:45:46.560 --> 0:45:48.520
<v Speaker 2>you can hit three iron, you can hit such a

0:45:48.520 --> 0:45:50.960
<v Speaker 2>wide I think you're gonna see players play such a

0:45:51.000 --> 0:45:53.440
<v Speaker 2>wide variety of shots. The thing is when you have

0:45:53.480 --> 0:45:56.400
<v Speaker 2>a wedge in your hand and if it's blowing, that

0:45:56.560 --> 0:46:00.279
<v Speaker 2>shot is no easy picnic because the targets raised up.

0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:04.240
<v Speaker 2>It repels on all edges and it's a really small target.

0:46:04.400 --> 0:46:08.319
<v Speaker 2>It is a tiny green. So that is will be

0:46:08.360 --> 0:46:11.879
<v Speaker 2>a really interesting hole to see how different players strategize

0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:13.560
<v Speaker 2>and play it, because I think you're going to see

0:46:14.080 --> 0:46:17.719
<v Speaker 2>there's obviously hazards, there's marsh around it, but there's a

0:46:17.760 --> 0:46:19.799
<v Speaker 2>decent amount of space up there. I think you'll see

0:46:19.840 --> 0:46:21.959
<v Speaker 2>some guys try and drive it, hit it as close

0:46:22.000 --> 0:46:24.600
<v Speaker 2>as possible, other guys lay back, and I think it'll

0:46:24.600 --> 0:46:27.440
<v Speaker 2>be dependent on the wind too, But that weg shot

0:46:27.520 --> 0:46:30.560
<v Speaker 2>is not fun if your downwind is almost harder because

0:46:30.560 --> 0:46:32.640
<v Speaker 2>you just don't know how that wedge is going to react,

0:46:33.160 --> 0:46:36.640
<v Speaker 2>and you could get big first hops. So that is

0:46:36.920 --> 0:46:39.440
<v Speaker 2>probably one of the holes that I'm most excited about.

0:46:39.440 --> 0:46:43.399
<v Speaker 2>The par threes are extraordinary out there. They all kind

0:46:43.400 --> 0:46:45.839
<v Speaker 2>of go in a little bit different direction. I think

0:46:45.840 --> 0:46:49.560
<v Speaker 2>they all play in distinctly different directions, which is neat.

0:46:49.880 --> 0:46:53.200
<v Speaker 2>The first one has almost like an hour glass type green.

0:46:53.280 --> 0:46:58.879
<v Speaker 2>It's similar to seventeen at Pebble, except it's got more

0:46:59.000 --> 0:47:02.040
<v Speaker 2>space have as small as a neck, but it's if

0:47:02.040 --> 0:47:04.640
<v Speaker 2>you can envision that one, and so you have a

0:47:04.640 --> 0:47:06.879
<v Speaker 2>lot of variety in terms of length that that can play.

0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:09.680
<v Speaker 2>And it's kind of where the routing turns on the

0:47:09.680 --> 0:47:13.440
<v Speaker 2>front nine. So you're playing out and this one turns

0:47:13.480 --> 0:47:16.080
<v Speaker 2>and it kind of brings you starts the process back,

0:47:16.160 --> 0:47:18.879
<v Speaker 2>but it it plays in a distinctly different angle than

0:47:19.000 --> 0:47:22.560
<v Speaker 2>every other hole on that nine. And that and then

0:47:23.000 --> 0:47:26.120
<v Speaker 2>it got a great little shorter par three with a

0:47:26.239 --> 0:47:31.239
<v Speaker 2>raised green, very very volcano esque par three the eighth hole,

0:47:31.560 --> 0:47:34.359
<v Speaker 2>and it's a really neat hole. It's just like a

0:47:34.400 --> 0:47:38.719
<v Speaker 2>do or die shot, and like everything, I feel very repetitive.

0:47:38.920 --> 0:47:43.279
<v Speaker 2>The wind makes it extraordinarily difficult. If you've got a crosswind,

0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:46.640
<v Speaker 2>it's not a fun shot to hit on the back.

0:47:46.719 --> 0:47:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Nine fourteen is a cool green that's got it's almost

0:47:51.560 --> 0:47:54.399
<v Speaker 2>got a little bit. It's not a radan at all,

0:47:54.520 --> 0:47:58.680
<v Speaker 2>but it's got that kind of slope where it runs

0:47:58.760 --> 0:48:01.879
<v Speaker 2>back from the right, so you can you'll see guys

0:48:01.960 --> 0:48:03.719
<v Speaker 2>hit it away from the flag to get it close

0:48:03.760 --> 0:48:05.880
<v Speaker 2>to the flag there. It's kind of like right in

0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:08.040
<v Speaker 2>the middle of the green. It's got this shelf that

0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:10.560
<v Speaker 2>runs away in back allah radan.

0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:13.879
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, Well, it's funny you say it's that it's

0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:16.480
<v Speaker 1>like a radan but not a radan, because in his

0:48:16.520 --> 0:48:20.040
<v Speaker 1>book Pete Dye says it's a ra dan, but looking

0:48:20.080 --> 0:48:24.200
<v Speaker 1>at it, you know, not really. What are some of

0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:27.800
<v Speaker 1>the things that for you differentiate it from a true radan.

0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:32.520
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just the front part that the shelf

0:48:32.600 --> 0:48:34.280
<v Speaker 2>kind of comes more in the middle of the green.

0:48:34.520 --> 0:48:34.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:48:34.920 --> 0:48:37.960
<v Speaker 3>Right, it works well. It works like a radan.

0:48:38.440 --> 0:48:39.560
<v Speaker 1>You can run it back there.

0:48:39.920 --> 0:48:42.480
<v Speaker 2>It just doesn't have the aesthetics that you would be

0:48:42.640 --> 0:48:46.200
<v Speaker 2>used to. It doesn't have like the same angular nature

0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:51.640
<v Speaker 2>as your traditional radan, but it does work well, like

0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:54.680
<v Speaker 2>you have to aim short right to get it close

0:48:55.360 --> 0:48:57.240
<v Speaker 2>to the to the left flags.

0:48:57.080 --> 0:48:59.279
<v Speaker 1>And it's it's the first hole that comes back on

0:48:59.320 --> 0:49:02.040
<v Speaker 1>the back nine along the ocean that comes back toward

0:49:02.120 --> 0:49:02.680
<v Speaker 1>the clubhouse.

0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:06.200
<v Speaker 2>It's really it's really the first right on the ocean

0:49:06.239 --> 0:49:09.160
<v Speaker 2>hole on the golf course, because that front nine is

0:49:09.239 --> 0:49:10.720
<v Speaker 2>detached from the ocean.

0:49:11.000 --> 0:49:14.160
<v Speaker 3>So this starts your stretch of just like basically straight

0:49:14.160 --> 0:49:15.080
<v Speaker 3>holes on the ocean.

0:49:15.320 --> 0:49:19.160
<v Speaker 2>And then the seventeenth turns back in plays the opposite

0:49:19.160 --> 0:49:22.800
<v Speaker 2>direction of the fifth, and that hole is a long

0:49:22.880 --> 0:49:25.959
<v Speaker 2>par three and there's there's no bail out.

0:49:27.280 --> 0:49:29.200
<v Speaker 1>Guys had a hard time with that hole in nineteen

0:49:29.280 --> 0:49:32.000
<v Speaker 1>ninety one, oh a lot of guys. There's a lake

0:49:32.040 --> 0:49:33.960
<v Speaker 1>in front of the green is kind of angled left

0:49:34.000 --> 0:49:36.799
<v Speaker 1>to right, and there's a big lake in front of

0:49:36.800 --> 0:49:39.000
<v Speaker 1>the green that Alice Die is the one who recommended.

0:49:39.040 --> 0:49:40.799
<v Speaker 1>They initially weren't going to have that, but they put

0:49:40.800 --> 0:49:42.960
<v Speaker 1>that there, and it comes right up to the edge

0:49:42.960 --> 0:49:45.000
<v Speaker 1>of the green. Classic Die style. You know, I think

0:49:45.000 --> 0:49:47.520
<v Speaker 1>there's some railroad ties there. Oh yeah, yeah, oh yeah,

0:49:47.560 --> 0:49:51.160
<v Speaker 1>and yeah nineteen ninety one Ryder Cup ball after ball

0:49:51.320 --> 0:49:51.840
<v Speaker 1>in the water.

0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:56.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you know Mark Kalkovecia's famous meltdown happened on

0:49:56.520 --> 0:50:00.439
<v Speaker 2>the seventeenth. Like I think somebody said, is the worst

0:50:00.480 --> 0:50:05.240
<v Speaker 2>shot they've ever seen a professional hit. I mean that

0:50:05.239 --> 0:50:09.560
<v Speaker 2>that that hole, it's scary, like you just stand there's

0:50:09.600 --> 0:50:12.320
<v Speaker 2>nowhere to hit it. You have to just commit to

0:50:12.440 --> 0:50:15.280
<v Speaker 2>hitting a good shot and pray that, like the wind

0:50:15.400 --> 0:50:19.239
<v Speaker 2>is in a good direction for you. So there's really

0:50:19.320 --> 0:50:22.480
<v Speaker 2>good variety and distances, and then the directions are so

0:50:23.160 --> 0:50:25.319
<v Speaker 2>they're they're a great set of par three. I feel

0:50:25.320 --> 0:50:29.520
<v Speaker 2>like Pete Die typically builds really good par threes and

0:50:29.520 --> 0:50:32.000
<v Speaker 2>and this is no different than than that.

0:50:32.120 --> 0:50:33.840
<v Speaker 3>It's just a lot of variety in them.

0:50:33.920 --> 0:50:35.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're king in on the variety and that and

0:50:35.960 --> 0:50:40.480
<v Speaker 1>that was that's a hallmark for par threes. You would

0:50:40.520 --> 0:50:44.320
<v Speaker 1>never mistake one part three on a course for another.

0:50:44.560 --> 0:50:46.520
<v Speaker 1>When you're playing a Pete Die golf course, they're all

0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:47.280
<v Speaker 1>totally different.

0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:49.760
<v Speaker 3>It's it's just such a neat place.

0:50:49.880 --> 0:50:53.359
<v Speaker 2>And I I wish in a way, you know, it's

0:50:53.400 --> 0:50:56.560
<v Speaker 2>like one of these things with golfer right, it's a resort.

0:50:57.000 --> 0:51:00.960
<v Speaker 2>It can get what it charges. I just I wish

0:51:01.080 --> 0:51:03.600
<v Speaker 2>it was more affordable. But it's a bucketless place. And

0:51:03.760 --> 0:51:06.040
<v Speaker 2>I think people like you know, I think the rest

0:51:06.040 --> 0:51:08.440
<v Speaker 2>of the resort plays a factor. Like I played Turtle

0:51:08.440 --> 0:51:11.040
<v Speaker 2>Point when I was in high school. I ran around it.

0:51:11.040 --> 0:51:13.280
<v Speaker 3>While we were.

0:51:12.440 --> 0:51:14.680
<v Speaker 2>We were there and I reminded it reminded me of

0:51:14.719 --> 0:51:20.839
<v Speaker 2>how much I hated it, And I think, like, you know,

0:51:21.000 --> 0:51:22.439
<v Speaker 2>the rest of the golf courses aren't.

0:51:22.560 --> 0:51:24.920
<v Speaker 3>I think that's where it lacks compared to others. But

0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:25.839
<v Speaker 3>like the.

0:51:25.840 --> 0:51:30.120
<v Speaker 2>Ocean Course, I wouldn't want to play there regularly, but

0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:33.360
<v Speaker 2>every once in a while it is. It is a

0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:37.600
<v Speaker 2>spectacular golf course. It's a really great golf course. It's

0:51:37.719 --> 0:51:40.520
<v Speaker 2>just really hard, and I think that it's okay to

0:51:40.640 --> 0:51:43.560
<v Speaker 2>have a golf course can be great and really hard.

0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:48.040
<v Speaker 1>But at the same time, it has these two functions

0:51:48.080 --> 0:51:50.719
<v Speaker 1>that are so different. It's a tournament golf course. It's

0:51:50.719 --> 0:51:53.960
<v Speaker 1>an elite tournament golf course that is meant to be hard,

0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:58.040
<v Speaker 1>and it is hard, has been hard. But for most

0:51:58.120 --> 0:52:01.080
<v Speaker 1>of its existence it has function and does a resort course.

0:52:01.560 --> 0:52:03.440
<v Speaker 1>And so how do you think it fares on those counts?

0:52:03.440 --> 0:52:05.279
<v Speaker 1>Do people Do you think people just expect, like I'm

0:52:05.280 --> 0:52:08.040
<v Speaker 1>going to get murdered by this course or is there

0:52:08.120 --> 0:52:10.400
<v Speaker 1>is there some flexibility built into it.

0:52:10.400 --> 0:52:11.280
<v Speaker 3>It's so funny.

0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:14.360
<v Speaker 2>I you know, the I was talking to our caddies

0:52:15.320 --> 0:52:18.399
<v Speaker 2>and the day before we played, it was just these

0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:20.680
<v Speaker 2>insane winds. And I talked to a guy in the

0:52:20.680 --> 0:52:22.960
<v Speaker 2>pro shop. I was like, yesterday I had to be

0:52:23.040 --> 0:52:26.120
<v Speaker 2>wild out here. He's like, yeah, nobody even canceled. It's

0:52:26.160 --> 0:52:28.759
<v Speaker 2>like if I was scheduled to play that day, I

0:52:28.800 --> 0:52:31.359
<v Speaker 2>would have been like, no, no thanks. I mean, you're

0:52:31.440 --> 0:52:33.680
<v Speaker 2>just like thirty five mile in our winds out there.

0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:38.080
<v Speaker 2>It's insane and it's just extraordinarily demanding golf course to

0:52:38.120 --> 0:52:40.480
<v Speaker 2>play in that type of wind. I would have been like,

0:52:40.560 --> 0:52:43.880
<v Speaker 2>no thanks. And I asked the cat. The caddy said

0:52:44.200 --> 0:52:46.920
<v Speaker 2>that she said for the people she would carry for

0:52:47.640 --> 0:52:53.440
<v Speaker 2>they lost a dozen balls by the third hole. It

0:52:53.040 --> 0:52:55.239
<v Speaker 2>is it's not a place where it's not like all

0:52:55.320 --> 0:52:58.120
<v Speaker 2>low handicaps, Like that's the thing is like the this

0:52:58.200 --> 0:53:00.520
<v Speaker 2>is a type of place that you get corporate retreat,

0:53:00.920 --> 0:53:03.319
<v Speaker 2>you get people that have never played golf. It's their

0:53:03.320 --> 0:53:06.040
<v Speaker 2>first round of golf ever at the Ocean course. Like

0:53:06.200 --> 0:53:09.799
<v Speaker 2>could you imagine do you imagine playing your first round

0:53:09.840 --> 0:53:12.560
<v Speaker 2>of golf at the Ocean Course? Like I would hate

0:53:12.560 --> 0:53:12.919
<v Speaker 2>the game.

0:53:13.040 --> 0:53:16.040
<v Speaker 1>I can't. Yeah, I mean, and it's not just a

0:53:16.120 --> 0:53:18.400
<v Speaker 1>it's not a resource cour resort course in the Abandon

0:53:18.480 --> 0:53:20.920
<v Speaker 1>Dunes or sand Valley a sense where it's a golf

0:53:21.239 --> 0:53:24.720
<v Speaker 1>resort exclusively, like where you're going there to play golf.

0:53:25.239 --> 0:53:28.000
<v Speaker 1>It's a resort resort, right, it's a it's a nice

0:53:28.040 --> 0:53:30.080
<v Speaker 1>place to go on a vacation, even if you're not

0:53:30.120 --> 0:53:33.600
<v Speaker 1>particularly interested in golf, and so you can find yourself

0:53:33.640 --> 0:53:37.000
<v Speaker 1>out on that course without having many skills at all.

0:53:37.160 --> 0:53:40.440
<v Speaker 2>And let me tell you something, all of everything I

0:53:40.520 --> 0:53:44.120
<v Speaker 2>just said about Kiowa, about the Ocean course, it might

0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:50.760
<v Speaker 2>be worse at Turtle Point. That's the most claustrophobic golf course. Yeah,

0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:54.040
<v Speaker 2>and I couldn't ever imagine playing it as like a

0:53:54.120 --> 0:53:58.440
<v Speaker 2>twenty handicap. There's things that I love about Kiowa the

0:53:58.520 --> 0:54:02.800
<v Speaker 2>resort in general, and then there are things I dislike,

0:54:02.960 --> 0:54:05.839
<v Speaker 2>And one of them is like the Turtle Point and

0:54:05.880 --> 0:54:08.840
<v Speaker 2>how they felt the need to squeeze three holes on

0:54:08.880 --> 0:54:13.480
<v Speaker 2>the ocean And it's like anybody that saw the Ezema

0:54:13.680 --> 0:54:17.160
<v Speaker 2>tournament and Bahamas the Web event where the winds just

0:54:17.280 --> 0:54:20.440
<v Speaker 2>reaped carnage, and that you know, there's allegedly the story

0:54:20.560 --> 0:54:23.320
<v Speaker 2>is that Greg Norman when he played the course and

0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:24.160
<v Speaker 2>with Hank Keny.

0:54:24.440 --> 0:54:26.600
<v Speaker 3>They ran out of golf balls on the twelve hole.

0:54:28.280 --> 0:54:30.440
<v Speaker 2>That's Turtle Point, Like you get out on the ocean

0:54:30.480 --> 0:54:33.239
<v Speaker 2>holes and there's like thirty yards of space to hit it.

0:54:33.239 --> 0:54:36.439
<v Speaker 3>And I watched this guy. You know, you could walk

0:54:36.560 --> 0:54:37.359
<v Speaker 3>right through there.

0:54:37.520 --> 0:54:39.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, there's walking trails and I was out for

0:54:39.600 --> 0:54:43.719
<v Speaker 2>a walk and I just watched this guy stand on

0:54:43.760 --> 0:54:45.279
<v Speaker 2>the tea and he could just tell he was just

0:54:45.320 --> 0:54:47.920
<v Speaker 2>making the most guy to swing. He hit it right

0:54:47.960 --> 0:54:51.640
<v Speaker 2>into the houses, like it's just like a natural reaction.

0:54:51.880 --> 0:54:53.720
<v Speaker 2>I think that does have to be some of the

0:54:53.719 --> 0:54:56.400
<v Speaker 2>holes in America that people lose the most golf balls on,

0:54:56.520 --> 0:54:59.040
<v Speaker 2>or those ocean holes that they just crammed in there

0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:00.440
<v Speaker 2>in between houses beach.

0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:03.680
<v Speaker 1>It's an interesting relic. I mean, I don't think golf

0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:06.960
<v Speaker 1>resorts are being built like this anymore, where the courses

0:55:06.960 --> 0:55:08.120
<v Speaker 1>are super super hard.

0:55:09.000 --> 0:55:11.600
<v Speaker 2>I think about it, it's like they were really ahead

0:55:11.600 --> 0:55:17.480
<v Speaker 2>of their time in terms of environmental practices land planning,

0:55:17.600 --> 0:55:19.360
<v Speaker 2>like they did a great They did a lot of

0:55:19.400 --> 0:55:24.200
<v Speaker 2>great things with like preserving nature there, which is great.

0:55:24.320 --> 0:55:27.360
<v Speaker 2>That's what makes it so cool to visit. Just in general,

0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:33.360
<v Speaker 2>if you're a person that enjoys like walking. It's amazing place.

0:55:33.480 --> 0:55:38.640
<v Speaker 2>Like I've got a renewed or maybe even new passion

0:55:38.719 --> 0:55:41.839
<v Speaker 2>for walks. That's something new for twenty twenty for me.

0:55:42.280 --> 0:55:46.479
<v Speaker 2>But like I just loved walking around there. But the

0:55:46.480 --> 0:55:50.480
<v Speaker 2>the golf. From the golf standpoint, they developed this resort

0:55:50.600 --> 0:55:53.680
<v Speaker 2>probably the worst time in golf history to develop a

0:55:53.760 --> 0:55:59.359
<v Speaker 2>resort on like sandy soil near the ocean. You think

0:55:59.360 --> 0:56:02.960
<v Speaker 2>about what could be, right, Yeah.

0:56:02.480 --> 0:56:05.720
<v Speaker 1>That said ocean course at Kiowa is a cool place.

0:56:05.760 --> 0:56:07.640
<v Speaker 1>I think that's the that's the verdict.

0:56:07.480 --> 0:56:08.520
<v Speaker 3>Right, Yeah.

0:56:08.760 --> 0:56:11.080
<v Speaker 2>I think like people will pooh pooh it just because

0:56:11.120 --> 0:56:13.080
<v Speaker 2>of the time it was and how hard it is.

0:56:13.120 --> 0:56:16.399
<v Speaker 2>But like it's okay, a golf course could be very

0:56:16.440 --> 0:56:20.400
<v Speaker 2>good and very hard like that is. That's fine, Like

0:56:20.440 --> 0:56:25.080
<v Speaker 2>it's very demanding it but there's a lot of strategy

0:56:25.120 --> 0:56:29.240
<v Speaker 2>and a lot of cool angular stuff within that demand,

0:56:29.840 --> 0:56:33.600
<v Speaker 2>and it is a course that is is a one

0:56:33.600 --> 0:56:34.880
<v Speaker 2>of a kind golf course.

0:56:36.080 --> 0:56:38.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And something we haven't mentioned yet that I wanted

0:56:38.480 --> 0:56:41.040
<v Speaker 1>to touch on before we move on to other topics

0:56:41.200 --> 0:56:44.440
<v Speaker 1>is just the look of the ocean course at Kiowa.

0:56:45.160 --> 0:56:48.840
<v Speaker 1>I think even in Pete Dye's body of work, it

0:56:48.960 --> 0:56:54.160
<v Speaker 1>is a uniquely cool looking well shaped course. He usually

0:56:54.200 --> 0:56:58.520
<v Speaker 1>did a good job making his courses look distinctive. But

0:56:58.719 --> 0:57:03.000
<v Speaker 1>the just look at photographs of the ocean course and

0:57:03.080 --> 0:57:07.120
<v Speaker 1>seeing the way the bunkers are shaped, the way the

0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:13.000
<v Speaker 1>contours are done around the greens, It's varied, unexpected, it's strange.

0:57:13.480 --> 0:57:16.440
<v Speaker 1>I wouldn't call it natural necessarily. You know, there are

0:57:16.480 --> 0:57:19.200
<v Speaker 1>other architects who have done a better job of emulating

0:57:19.280 --> 0:57:24.720
<v Speaker 1>a dune's environment more exactly. But the way that the

0:57:24.760 --> 0:57:27.880
<v Speaker 1>shapes kind of pop up off of the ground but

0:57:28.000 --> 0:57:32.080
<v Speaker 1>still stay pretty low profile and don't look ridiculous. I

0:57:32.120 --> 0:57:35.040
<v Speaker 1>don't know, there's something there that is that is cool

0:57:35.080 --> 0:57:35.760
<v Speaker 1>about Kiwa.

0:57:36.320 --> 0:57:39.720
<v Speaker 2>It's not necessarily like you wouldn't imagine being natural, no

0:57:39.880 --> 0:57:42.440
<v Speaker 2>per se, but it doesn't look out of place.

0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:46.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah yeah, And why is that? Like I'm trying to

0:57:46.640 --> 0:57:49.400
<v Speaker 1>trying to find my way to that answer, because it's

0:57:49.600 --> 0:57:51.320
<v Speaker 1>it's not the way the bunkers are shaped. It's not

0:57:51.360 --> 0:57:53.400
<v Speaker 1>like he's trying to fool you into thinking those were

0:57:53.440 --> 0:57:56.000
<v Speaker 1>there before. I think part of it is that it's

0:57:56.040 --> 0:57:58.840
<v Speaker 1>fairly low profile. The greens are pushed up, but it's

0:57:58.840 --> 0:58:02.880
<v Speaker 1>not like he built these massive stadium course like surrounds.

0:58:03.560 --> 0:58:05.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's I think one of the things

0:58:05.720 --> 0:58:08.960
<v Speaker 2>is because they have what Hugo did with the dunes

0:58:09.080 --> 0:58:12.640
<v Speaker 2>and making all those dunes ridges. I think the term

0:58:12.760 --> 0:58:17.000
<v Speaker 2>scale gets thrown around a lot as just like a buzzword.

0:58:17.200 --> 0:58:19.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, people don't know what it means. Scale. Scale can be.

0:58:19.880 --> 0:58:21.960
<v Speaker 1>It's not just big scale that we're talking about. When

0:58:21.960 --> 0:58:24.600
<v Speaker 1>we talk about scale, we're talking about the match between

0:58:24.640 --> 0:58:26.760
<v Speaker 1>the scale of the environment and the scale of the course.

0:58:26.880 --> 0:58:31.080
<v Speaker 2>Right, So those dunes create a bigger scale, which allowed

0:58:31.480 --> 0:58:36.080
<v Speaker 2>the features he built, which aren't super large, to blend

0:58:36.080 --> 0:58:40.400
<v Speaker 2>in more because of their the surrounds being bigger, the

0:58:40.520 --> 0:58:44.919
<v Speaker 2>natural surrounds being bigger, the things that he built up

0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:49.160
<v Speaker 2>and these bunkers, these bunkers do not look natural at all, right,

0:58:49.440 --> 0:58:52.520
<v Speaker 2>but they work. And I think we see this sometimes

0:58:52.520 --> 0:58:55.680
<v Speaker 2>with like a above ground features, you know, just a

0:58:55.800 --> 0:58:58.840
<v Speaker 2>general they're the bunkers are some of them are almost

0:58:58.920 --> 0:59:03.240
<v Speaker 2>above ground features, like like they pop up, they're like

0:59:03.360 --> 0:59:08.640
<v Speaker 2>almost I know he got into volcano bunkers later in.

0:59:07.960 --> 0:59:09.120
<v Speaker 1>The French Lick era.

0:59:09.680 --> 0:59:13.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but these might have been the precursor to

0:59:13.800 --> 0:59:15.160
<v Speaker 2>the volcano bunkers.

0:59:15.240 --> 0:59:19.120
<v Speaker 1>Sure, this is getting late in his career here, right,

0:59:19.200 --> 0:59:22.360
<v Speaker 1>This is This is fairly late period Pete Die, so

0:59:22.440 --> 0:59:24.440
<v Speaker 1>he'd been doing it for a while and so this

0:59:24.560 --> 0:59:27.160
<v Speaker 1>is a different phase of his career than Harbor Town

0:59:27.480 --> 0:59:28.840
<v Speaker 1>or TPC Sawgrass.

0:59:28.880 --> 0:59:31.959
<v Speaker 3>This is Sawgrass today is not.

0:59:31.880 --> 0:59:37.160
<v Speaker 1>Necessarily Pete Die, yeah, because.

0:59:37.160 --> 0:59:39.640
<v Speaker 3>It's more TPC design than Pete Die.

0:59:39.760 --> 0:59:43.520
<v Speaker 1>But yeah, all right, So Ocean corsic Quio a cool

0:59:43.560 --> 0:59:46.840
<v Speaker 1>place with some fantastic things about it, but also some

0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:50.600
<v Speaker 1>questions to ask about its design, which makes it really

0:59:50.640 --> 0:59:51.480
<v Speaker 1>interesting to discuss.

0:59:51.520 --> 0:59:53.480
<v Speaker 3>That's Pete Die for you polarizing.

0:59:53.720 --> 0:59:56.520
<v Speaker 1>He's polarizing, and he should be, and I wish more

0:59:56.640 --> 1:00:00.720
<v Speaker 1>architects were, in fact, because he might be the most

1:00:00.800 --> 1:00:05.560
<v Speaker 1>interesting architect to discuss of all time, mainly because you

1:00:05.600 --> 1:00:08.440
<v Speaker 1>can't possibly play one of his courses and say I

1:00:08.480 --> 1:00:11.720
<v Speaker 1>don't have anything to quibble with here, but you can't.

1:00:11.760 --> 1:00:13.600
<v Speaker 1>You also can't play one of his golf courses and

1:00:13.640 --> 1:00:15.000
<v Speaker 1>say there's nothing here that I like.

1:00:15.600 --> 1:00:19.360
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think that's you know where His contemporary obviously

1:00:19.440 --> 1:00:23.600
<v Speaker 2>was Fazzio and Nicholas to a certain extent sure, And

1:00:23.640 --> 1:00:27.200
<v Speaker 2>I think that's the thing that separated Die for me

1:00:27.400 --> 1:00:32.840
<v Speaker 2>from Fazio is that Die was able to go outside

1:00:32.880 --> 1:00:35.680
<v Speaker 2>of the box a little bit more, and he wasn't

1:00:35.720 --> 1:00:38.520
<v Speaker 2>afraid to take risks where I feel like Fazio kind

1:00:38.520 --> 1:00:42.600
<v Speaker 2>of just ouh, this works here, you know, do this here,

1:00:43.640 --> 1:00:44.280
<v Speaker 2>all right.

1:00:44.200 --> 1:00:46.840
<v Speaker 3>This is another golf course. We do this and this

1:00:46.920 --> 1:00:47.200
<v Speaker 3>and this.

1:00:47.320 --> 1:00:49.400
<v Speaker 2>And he did the thing with Fazzio too, is he

1:00:49.480 --> 1:00:52.360
<v Speaker 2>built a lot of very good golf courses. But I

1:00:52.480 --> 1:00:56.800
<v Speaker 2>just don't think, you know, he never was audacious enough

1:00:57.480 --> 1:01:01.800
<v Speaker 2>to build, you know, whether you like Pete Dye or not,

1:01:02.560 --> 1:01:06.960
<v Speaker 2>his stuff is memorable and that that in itself is

1:01:07.120 --> 1:01:09.720
<v Speaker 2>worth going to see, you know, And I think that's

1:01:09.760 --> 1:01:13.080
<v Speaker 2>what somebody. I don't think Mike Strantz is that great

1:01:13.160 --> 1:01:15.800
<v Speaker 2>of an architect. Everybody loves him, but I think what

1:01:15.840 --> 1:01:20.000
<v Speaker 2>people love him about about him is that the stuff's memorable.

1:01:20.400 --> 1:01:22.800
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's a it's a unique art form. And

1:01:22.920 --> 1:01:25.720
<v Speaker 2>that's what architecture is. It's art. And I think, like

1:01:26.000 --> 1:01:28.919
<v Speaker 2>you know, Strants, it would been really interesting to see

1:01:28.920 --> 1:01:31.439
<v Speaker 2>how his career progressed, because that's one of the other

1:01:31.600 --> 1:01:36.840
<v Speaker 2>interesting things things with architects that I really like examining

1:01:36.880 --> 1:01:40.480
<v Speaker 2>and thinking about is how they progress from early stages

1:01:40.520 --> 1:01:43.320
<v Speaker 2>to later stages. And obviously this is like we just

1:01:43.360 --> 1:01:46.560
<v Speaker 2>talked about, this is a later Die versus Harbor Town,

1:01:46.720 --> 1:01:51.560
<v Speaker 2>early Die or you know Crooked Stick or the golf club,

1:01:51.800 --> 1:01:55.440
<v Speaker 2>and I think or the stadium phase, like there is

1:01:55.480 --> 1:01:59.120
<v Speaker 2>the stadium phase too. I think the thing with with

1:01:59.240 --> 1:02:04.000
<v Speaker 2>Fassio was it was always kind of a Fassio, you know.

1:02:04.680 --> 1:02:09.040
<v Speaker 2>And I think the thing with Strands was it was

1:02:09.320 --> 1:02:13.720
<v Speaker 2>really cool to look at, but you wondered about some

1:02:13.840 --> 1:02:18.640
<v Speaker 2>of the functionality. You wonder about some of the everyday

1:02:18.960 --> 1:02:23.680
<v Speaker 2>aspects of it. There are a lot of questions around

1:02:23.760 --> 1:02:28.080
<v Speaker 2>the architecture. The architecture was more art than function, you know,

1:02:28.200 --> 1:02:29.560
<v Speaker 2>more form than function.

1:02:30.600 --> 1:02:32.800
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a good point about Strandson and Strans is

1:02:32.800 --> 1:02:37.040
<v Speaker 1>actually a really good comparison with Die. Yes, if you're

1:02:37.080 --> 1:02:40.560
<v Speaker 1>looking at the evolution of golf architecture, where the lines

1:02:40.600 --> 1:02:43.720
<v Speaker 1>of influence go, obviously they go in a number of

1:02:43.760 --> 1:02:48.800
<v Speaker 1>directions from Die. He mentored any number of great architects

1:02:48.840 --> 1:02:50.840
<v Speaker 1>that you know now. But if you're looking for an

1:02:50.920 --> 1:02:53.640
<v Speaker 1>architect who is truly carrying on that Die tradition of

1:02:53.720 --> 1:02:57.480
<v Speaker 1>provocative work, then Mike Strants is a pretty good example.

1:02:58.040 --> 1:03:00.320
<v Speaker 2>I was kind of a I think I've talked about

1:03:00.360 --> 1:03:02.720
<v Speaker 2>this before on this pot. I think one of the

1:03:02.720 --> 1:03:04.880
<v Speaker 2>things I think about a ton is, like, how would

1:03:04.880 --> 1:03:08.360
<v Speaker 2>Strants have evolved? Yeah, what would we have seen in

1:03:08.400 --> 1:03:11.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty ten, Because when he passed away, he was just

1:03:12.080 --> 1:03:16.160
<v Speaker 2>reaching the pinnacle. The commissions were getting better and better

1:03:16.280 --> 1:03:19.320
<v Speaker 2>and bigger, and he was about to hit you know,

1:03:19.400 --> 1:03:22.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of the height of his career. And he would

1:03:22.600 --> 1:03:28.240
<v Speaker 2>have been a really interesting foil to the minimalist style

1:03:28.400 --> 1:03:31.000
<v Speaker 2>architecture that won out with Bill Khrer and Tom Doak.

1:03:31.600 --> 1:03:33.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't think he would have built a golf course abandoned,

1:03:34.160 --> 1:03:37.160
<v Speaker 2>like I don't think that would have happened, But he

1:03:37.200 --> 1:03:39.200
<v Speaker 2>would have built a lot of other golf courses that

1:03:39.240 --> 1:03:43.400
<v Speaker 2>would have been stylistically and philosophically built a lot differently

1:03:43.560 --> 1:03:47.080
<v Speaker 2>than the style that really won out and today is

1:03:47.560 --> 1:03:50.680
<v Speaker 2>the one that's in vogue, you know, the dominant style.

1:03:51.240 --> 1:03:52.760
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. If he didn't build a golf course for the

1:03:52.840 --> 1:03:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Kaisers and he died in two thousand and five, right,

1:03:55.520 --> 1:03:58.480
<v Speaker 1>so there was certainly maybe an opportunity to have done

1:03:58.520 --> 1:04:01.760
<v Speaker 1>so and it didn't happen. And maybe that a place

1:04:01.840 --> 1:04:05.000
<v Speaker 1>like Bandon Dune's would never have really jibed with Mike Strants,

1:04:05.240 --> 1:04:09.360
<v Speaker 1>but he might have built something at like stream Song. Yeah,

1:04:09.400 --> 1:04:12.000
<v Speaker 1>I'm glad that the courses at stream Song that are

1:04:12.040 --> 1:04:16.520
<v Speaker 1>there are there. Nonetheless, it's interesting to think about what

1:04:16.640 --> 1:04:19.080
<v Speaker 1>he might have done with the property that became stream

1:04:19.120 --> 1:04:21.760
<v Speaker 1>Song Black. Ye, what would Mike Strands have done there?

1:04:22.200 --> 1:04:25.520
<v Speaker 1>I think gil Hanst did something really interesting and provocative

1:04:25.560 --> 1:04:28.919
<v Speaker 1>in its own way there, but almost certainly Mike Strants

1:04:28.960 --> 1:04:31.000
<v Speaker 1>would have done something very very different.

1:04:31.520 --> 1:04:33.479
<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, that's the cool thing to think about

1:04:33.480 --> 1:04:37.880
<v Speaker 2>with anything. That's a beautiful thing about architectures. Look at

1:04:37.920 --> 1:04:41.080
<v Speaker 2>conceptual plans. If he had four architects draw them up,

1:04:41.120 --> 1:04:44.040
<v Speaker 2>they'd all be wildly different, you know. And I think

1:04:44.400 --> 1:04:48.520
<v Speaker 2>so it'll be interesting to see what happens with Maxwellis's architecture.

1:04:48.520 --> 1:04:49.760
<v Speaker 3>I think there's there's two.

1:04:50.040 --> 1:04:52.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, you got Jackson and Kahn kind of carrying

1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:54.960
<v Speaker 2>out this tradition, and then you've got Rob Collins and

1:04:55.000 --> 1:04:59.760
<v Speaker 2>Tad King that create and it'll be really interesting to

1:04:59.800 --> 1:05:03.320
<v Speaker 2>see where it goes. And it's something that's kind of

1:05:03.360 --> 1:05:06.680
<v Speaker 2>been missing from from the golf architecture discussion for the

1:05:06.760 --> 1:05:12.040
<v Speaker 2>last fifteen years, where you know, minimalism has been the thing.

1:05:12.640 --> 1:05:17.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, golf architecture, it moves slowly, right, the influences move slowly.

1:05:17.120 --> 1:05:19.040
<v Speaker 3>There are that many projects.

1:05:19.120 --> 1:05:22.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it has many fewer opportunities to evolve as an

1:05:23.000 --> 1:05:25.840
<v Speaker 1>art form than like music does, for instance. And so

1:05:25.920 --> 1:05:29.320
<v Speaker 1>if somebody right now is really influenced by Mike Strantz

1:05:29.360 --> 1:05:32.560
<v Speaker 1>or Pete Dye and is drawing on different threads in

1:05:32.600 --> 1:05:35.920
<v Speaker 1>golf architecture history than many of the architects who get

1:05:35.920 --> 1:05:38.600
<v Speaker 1>all the jobs right now, then we won't really know

1:05:38.680 --> 1:05:41.680
<v Speaker 1>that for another few years. But as you say, King Collins,

1:05:42.280 --> 1:05:45.200
<v Speaker 1>the Landman project, the things that they're doing in Mississippi,

1:05:45.800 --> 1:05:48.880
<v Speaker 1>that might be the next sort of telltale sign about

1:05:48.920 --> 1:05:49.919
<v Speaker 1>where things might be going.

1:05:50.280 --> 1:05:53.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, if they deliver and you know that it'll be interesting,

1:05:53.680 --> 1:05:56.680
<v Speaker 2>because then it would you know, kind of prescribe and

1:05:56.800 --> 1:06:01.320
<v Speaker 2>the notion of like you can build really dramatic stuff anywhere, right,

1:06:02.360 --> 1:06:09.400
<v Speaker 2>you can create interesting The idea of creating versus finding