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Speaker 1: The armstrong and getting show. The immediate priority, as you say,

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Speaker 1: is to get the Americans trapped behind Taliban lines out

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Speaker 1: of Afghanistan. Joe Biden to a ball faced law yesterday

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Speaker 1: when he said they planned for every contingency, they obviously

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Speaker 1: did not because there are ten to fifteen thousand Americans

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Speaker 1: behind Taliban checkpoints. My office has been in direct contact

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Speaker 1: with hundreds of these people who have not heard from

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Speaker 1: the State Department, who cannot get to the airport in

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Speaker 1: Cobble because the Taliban have checkpoints all over the roads

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Speaker 1: and control all access to it, and Joe Biden's administration

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Speaker 1: won't even commit to stay in Afghanistan to secure that

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Speaker 1: airport for two more weeks to get all those Americans out.

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Speaker 1: That's U S. Senator Tom Cotton as reading Josh Rogan's

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Speaker 1: Twitter feed in which he retweeted some information there are

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Speaker 1: fifteen thousand Americans currently trapped in Afghanistan. Some are reaching

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Speaker 1: the airport for evacuation, but it's unclear how many of

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Speaker 1: the Taliban will allow through. Since they get to make

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Speaker 1: that decision. Dual citizens are the most at risk. Those

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Speaker 1: that are outside Kabu have really no option, and as

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Speaker 1: Josh Rogan tweeted out the Biden presidency and US foreign

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Speaker 1: policy now hinge on pulling off one of the greatest

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Speaker 1: air airlifts in world history. Josh Rogan is global opinions

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Speaker 1: columnists for The Washington Post, also the author of a

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Speaker 1: terrific book about China Chaos under Heaven Trump she in

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Speaker 1: The Battle for the twenty Century. Josh joins us now,

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Speaker 1: Josh welcome, How are you. I'm okay a lot better

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Speaker 1: than our allies. Yeah, Josh, You're one of the first

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Speaker 1: people I saw on your Twitter feed speaking to the

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Speaker 1: fact that the Taliban control the narratives so much more

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Speaker 1: than a lot of people are talking about. Explain that

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Speaker 1: to us, well, I mean, you know, the fact of

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Speaker 1: the matter is that all of our American foreign policy

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Speaker 1: now is dependent on the good graces of the Taliban,

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Speaker 1: and all we have left to do in our uh

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Speaker 1: to say of our people is to uh balance, scrape

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Speaker 1: and beg the Taliban for safe passage which they may

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Speaker 1: or may not give on any given street on any

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Speaker 1: given day, and to try to negotiate with them by

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Speaker 1: bribing them with things like legitimacy and international recognition and money,

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Speaker 1: all of which they don't deserve because they're a murderous

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Speaker 1: group of uh fundamentalist extremist terrorist thugs. And you know,

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Speaker 1: if you just think about what a horrible position that

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Speaker 1: puts us in, uh, you realize that, you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: this was screwed up majorly. But the before we do

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Speaker 1: the postmortem, the patients still on the table, right, so

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Speaker 1: we still have to deal with the crisis that's ongoing

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Speaker 1: right now. And that is why I focus on this

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Speaker 1: idea that well we can there are mistakes that are

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Speaker 1: going on today that we don't have to make. There

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Speaker 1: are people who are going to die tomorrow who don't

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Speaker 1: have to die if the United States fixes its policy,

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Speaker 1: which we're not doing, of school, But that don't do

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Speaker 1: the post mortem all the patients still on the table

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Speaker 1: is a pretty good one. Yeah, that's solid stuff. So

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Speaker 1: we understand the vast majority of the Americans still in

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Speaker 1: country or in the Kabul area. So let's start there.

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Speaker 1: What is the situation for them right now? Informationally, logistically,

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Speaker 1: can they get to the airport? What's happening? You know,

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Speaker 1: my sources and I think it is confirmed by by

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Speaker 1: some of what you've seen from TV reporters on the ground,

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Speaker 1: is that. You know, the Taliban are enjoying there being

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Speaker 1: in charge of who gets to live and who gets

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Speaker 1: to die on the road to the Kabbal airport. And

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Speaker 1: you know, if you if you think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the promises of Taliban leaders extend down to every roaming

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Speaker 1: gang of thugs in Cobble, Uh, then you're a full.

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Speaker 1: So the you know, when the Biden administration tells us, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: don't worry, the Taliban said everything is gonna be fine,

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Speaker 1: they know that that's not true because they're not. Actually,

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Speaker 1: that's stupid. So you know, it's all case by case.

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Speaker 1: You know, you could be an American and you could

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Speaker 1: get to the airport and find that you don't have

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Speaker 1: a seat on the flight. You could be an American.

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Speaker 1: You could never get to the airport. You could. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's just Mayhem. And meanwhile, the planes are taking

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Speaker 1: off half full, sometimes not even that much because they're

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Speaker 1: not letting the people on the airport who are supposed

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Speaker 1: to get on the planes. So they're bragging that they

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Speaker 1: flew some planes out of it airport without any people

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Speaker 1: on them. I mean, that's how crazy it is. That's

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Speaker 1: how bad man. I spent a lot of the weekend

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Speaker 1: tweeting with smart people. And know I should have tweeted

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Speaker 1: at you because it's been a good person to ask it.

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Speaker 1: Just you know, what's in the Taliban's best interest, because

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Speaker 1: that's what they're gonna do. And I and I was

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Speaker 1: hoping that the Taliban would think. I think their current

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Speaker 1: thinking is the best thing for us is just to

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Speaker 1: get the United States out of there. Let's let's get

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Speaker 1: get them out of here and then we'll just run

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Speaker 1: the country. But if they wanted to, man, they could

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Speaker 1: embarrass us on the world stage. They could pull off

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Speaker 1: a hostage situation that could take weeks or months to unravel.

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Speaker 1: It could be really ugly, couldn't it. Right, So you

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Speaker 1: know this is sort of right, how do you how

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Speaker 1: do you get inside the minds the Taliban? Right? So

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Speaker 1: this is like a you know what the fight administration

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Speaker 1: trying to do now, they're trying to keep the Taliban

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Speaker 1: on their good side and so that they'll let the

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Speaker 1: Americans go. Of course, they're not gonna let the Afghans go.

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Speaker 1: Tens of thousands of Afghans who helped us, who risk

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Speaker 1: their lives for us on the promise that we would

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Speaker 1: provide them safety and promise that word right now in

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Speaker 1: the process of breaking. So they're never going to let

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Speaker 1: those people through the checkpoints no matter what. And the

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Speaker 1: only thing that we can ask for and reasonably expect

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Speaker 1: to get is, oh, well, they'll they'll let the Americans,

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Speaker 1: at least the white Americans, get through the lines. And

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Speaker 1: you know, yes, they could pull that rug out from

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Speaker 1: under us at any moment. So, in other words, they're

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Speaker 1: basically holding all of our citizens hostage. They're holding our

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Speaker 1: military and our government hostage in a sense because we

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Speaker 1: have to do what they say, because we're all We've

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Speaker 1: decided to give them the entire cities, the entire country

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Speaker 1: without a fight, and now, uh, we're screwed. Josh Rogan

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Speaker 1: of the Washington Post is on the line. Josh, I

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Speaker 1: read your excellent column which we have think that Armstrong

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Speaker 1: and Gutta dot com, and you mentioned that the folks

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Speaker 1: incable are desperate for any sort of information anything What

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Speaker 1: should I do type information? And they're calling congress people

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Speaker 1: and senators and such right so, you know, if we

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Speaker 1: have such a good relationship with the Taliban, why did

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Speaker 1: we have to close the embassy where they were processing

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Speaker 1: all the visas where people could call and figure out

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Speaker 1: what the heck to do. You know, if we have

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Speaker 1: such a good relationship with the Taliban, is the buying

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Speaker 1: administration seems to want to tell us? Uh? Then how

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Speaker 1: is it that the States Department has to tell Americans?

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Speaker 1: First of all, they told them the shelter in place,

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Speaker 1: don't come to the airport because the airport wasn't secure.

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Speaker 1: Then they said, okay, you can come to the airport,

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Speaker 1: but we're not going to provide you any assistance. So

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Speaker 1: good luck if you make it there, let us know.

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Speaker 1: And then if you get to the airport's not even

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Speaker 1: clear you get through the gates because the gates are

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Speaker 1: like full of uh, Taliban soldiers you know with American

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Speaker 1: you know, advanced weaponry strapped all to their backs. Uh

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Speaker 1: so yeah, I think you know, there's it's just a

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Speaker 1: raging fire and and they're they're trying to put it

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Speaker 1: out with a with a with a garden hose. It's

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Speaker 1: just crazy. You know, that's an excellent point. You can't

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Speaker 1: you can't make the claim that we're working with the Taliban.

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Speaker 1: But we had to smash our computers and burn all

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Speaker 1: of our our paperwork and leave the embassy UH in

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Speaker 1: a hurry that they they they burned all of the

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Speaker 1: passports that were in the embassy when they were burning

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Speaker 1: up the embassy dock. So if you were an Afghan

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Speaker 1: with a special visa and in your passport, your passport

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Speaker 1: got burned by the Americans. I mean, does that sound

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Speaker 1: like a well planned contingency to you? Does that sound like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we we we definitely thought of this, you know. Does

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Speaker 1: that sound like that a successful implementation of policy? Does

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Speaker 1: this feel like a disaster in the making? You know,

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Speaker 1: in my gun, I'm I'm so scared that if you

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Speaker 1: get much worse, And by that, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: Taliban doing exactly what you said, which is deciding that hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, toy with us has UH yielded them all

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Speaker 1: of the amusement that they care to get, and now

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Speaker 1: it's just time to start killing Americans and Westerners and

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Speaker 1: Europeans and Afghans and anybody else looks at them cross side,

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Speaker 1: and women and journalists and activists, And that would be

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Speaker 1: another layer of hell. That would be you know, Saigon

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Speaker 1: plus Benghazi, and you know, I pray to God that

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Speaker 1: we don't get to that point. But I think the

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Speaker 1: decisions that the US government makes in the next few

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Speaker 1: days will have an impact on that, you know, Josh,

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Speaker 1: I wonder well, I'm I'm I'm interested in observing the

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Speaker 1: way the Taliban is conducting itself right now. It seems

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Speaker 1: to me, and I'd love to hear your opinion that

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Speaker 1: they are coming off very much as the moderates to

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Speaker 1: try to grease the skids, solidified power, get the Americans

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Speaker 1: out of town, etcetera. But I'm sure they will go

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Speaker 1: back to their old ways before long, don't you. Well,

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Speaker 1: what the Taliban need is not recognition. They just need

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Speaker 1: some recognition. In other words, once they've put up an

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Speaker 1: off of a facade that the Chinese and the Russians

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Speaker 1: and Iranians, probably the Turks can pretend to believe them

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Speaker 1: because nobody actually believes them. But if you're a dictatorship

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Speaker 1: in Beijing or something like that, you could pretend log

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Speaker 1: enough to recognize them, then they won't need us anymore.

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Speaker 1: In other words, they don't need American recognition. It's enough

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Speaker 1: for them. If they get Pakistan and China and Russian around,

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Speaker 1: that's that's pretty good. Uh So, that's as long as

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Speaker 1: they'll you know, pretend not to be you know, murderous extremeist,

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Speaker 1: fanatic terrorists, fun fugs, which they still are. Okay, So

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Speaker 1: again that provides us a window to try to maybe

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Speaker 1: get something that we want. But to think that we

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Speaker 1: have leverage over them is ridiculous. And yes, of course

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Speaker 1: they'll play nice to the Internet with the international community

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Speaker 1: to a point. Uh. And that point is once they

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Speaker 1: extract as much as they can get from playing nice, Uh,

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Speaker 1: then though, I'm sure they'll revert the form. So we're

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Speaker 1: talking with Josh Rogan, and we've had you on several

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Speaker 1: times talking about your book Chaos under Heaving Trump she

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Speaker 1: in the Battle for the twenty one Century, you know,

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Speaker 1: back to your expertise on I know, how do you

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Speaker 1: think China looks at what we just did and what

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Speaker 1: we're doing. How might that influence their decisions and foreign

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Speaker 1: policy going forward? You know, it's funny because the Chinese

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Speaker 1: propaganda criticize us when we're in Afghanistan as imperialists, invaders

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Speaker 1: and occupiers. They criticizes when we leave Afghanistan uh for

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Speaker 1: abandoning our allies. So either way, the Chinese Communist Party

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Speaker 1: propaganda is gonna uh find a way to call us

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Speaker 1: the devils and and then the heroes. Okay, So putting

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Speaker 1: that aside, what's actually happening on the ground is that

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Speaker 1: our allies, not just our Western allies, but any allies, Taiwan, Israel,

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Speaker 1: you name it, have got to have their confidence shaken.

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Speaker 1: They've got to be thinking twice that if push came

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Speaker 1: to shove, if you know, if the if the their

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Speaker 1: version of the Taliban came for them, would America stand

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Speaker 1: by them? And you know, what are you supposed to

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Speaker 1: say to them, like, what do you how could you

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Speaker 1: possibly reassure them in the light of this disaster? And

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Speaker 1: what the by administration basically said as well, every situation

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Speaker 1: is different and they shouldn't worry. But I'm here to

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Speaker 1: tell you that they're worried. And China's trying to exploit that.

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Speaker 1: I mean, they just did a mock assault on Taiwan yesterday, right,

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Speaker 1: that's not that's not a coincidence of timing. They're telling

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Speaker 1: the Taiwan he is that, Uh, you guys are on

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Speaker 1: your own. Look what happened to as Raf Ghani and

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Speaker 1: the Taiwan He's are scared and they should be. That's interesting.

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Speaker 1: Josh Rogan Global opinions columnists for The Washington Post and

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Speaker 1: also again the author of Chaos under Heaven. Trump she

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Speaker 1: in the Battle for the Century. Josh, we sure appreciate

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Speaker 1: the time. Really good stuff. Thanks for your coverage, and

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Speaker 1: let's talk again soon anytime. Yeah, if you like this

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Speaker 1: sort of stuff, he's a good follow on Twitter. You know,

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Speaker 1: it becomes pretty obvious. Josh basically just said it there.

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Speaker 1: It already is a hostage situation. It's just happening behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes. It's just not overtly. It's not you know,

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Speaker 1: Al Pacino and Dog Day Afternoon, you know they're on cameras,

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Speaker 1: but it is. It is a hostage situation. The tally

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Speaker 1: Ban know that we know we're getting these people out

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Speaker 1: at their pleasure, and that's why we're offering them all

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Speaker 1: the money and everything. So it's it's a hostage negotiation

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Speaker 1: that's going on in secret. Right. Meanwhile, the five figures

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Speaker 1: low five figures worth of Americans who are hiding out

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Speaker 1: in and around Couple are getting no information from the

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Speaker 1: State Department. They don't know where to go or what

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Speaker 1: to do exactly, other than yeah, if you can get

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Speaker 1: to the airport, get there, and the nervousness is as

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Speaker 1: as Josh pointed out, he's got to come from. The

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Speaker 1: Taliban is not, you know, as top down coordinated as

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Speaker 1: the US military is. You could have a Taliban leader

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Speaker 1: or group of dudes decide, you know, we're gonna kill

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Speaker 1: Americans screw it at any point, and you know, I

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Speaker 1: know a lot of what you A lot of what

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Speaker 1: you would say, UH is uh, they start killing Americans,

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Speaker 1: or we're gonna unleash Holy Hell on you. Well, I

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Speaker 1: was thinking about Beirut nineteen eighty two something like that,

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Speaker 1: when uh, terrorists killed hundreds of Marines on our basis.

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Speaker 1: We didn't unleash Holy Hell on anybody. We got the

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Speaker 1: hell out of there. We thought this is a screwed

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Speaker 1: up part of the world, and we got out. Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The only reason they're not killing Americans is they must

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Speaker 1: not think it benefits them, because they're gonna do whatever

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Speaker 1: benefits them, right, And that could absolutely change over time

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Speaker 1: because there are thousands of Americans in hiding at this

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Speaker 1: point and no clear way to get him out. If

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Speaker 1: you're outside of Kabul, by the way, there's not even

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Speaker 1: a conception of a plan to rescue you. Uh. In

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Speaker 1: Kapul at least conceivably. There's a bad idea too of

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Speaker 1: how we can get you out. But how this unfolds,

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Speaker 1: god knows. How in the hell, Joe Biden, do you

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Speaker 1: decide you're gonna pull out of Afghanistan and then you

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Speaker 1: don't have a plan for fifteen thousand US citizens. They're

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Speaker 1: not already out of the country before you get this started.

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Speaker 1: How the hell does that happen? Right, Joe Biden? Anybody

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Speaker 1: gonna resign, anybody gonna get fired. The short answer is,

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Speaker 1: we thought we had at months that the you know,

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Speaker 1: that the storm would be seen gathering on the horizon

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Speaker 1: and moving slowly across the plane, and we could see

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Speaker 1: it coming and think, oll, we're probably down to about

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Speaker 1: sixty days to get people out. So let's get out

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Speaker 1: the less critical people, and we'll meet again next month

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Speaker 1: and decide who to get out. And go ahead and

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Speaker 1: book tickets, honey, because they're they're out halfway across the country,

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Speaker 1: and I think by by October they'll be here. So

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and book tickets, and we'll gather our

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Speaker 1: belongings and we'll move out of Kaboo. I guess that's

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Speaker 1: what they thought. That any comment text line four one

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Speaker 1: two nine five KFTC