1 00:00:03,680 --> 00:00:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson. I'm a journalist who's spent the 2 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:09,559 Speaker 1: last twenty five years writing about true crime. 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 2: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them. 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,799 Speaker 1: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: compelling true crimes. 7 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring 8 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 2: new insights to old mysteries. 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:31,680 Speaker 1: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime 10 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,360 Speaker 1: cases through a twenty first century lens. 11 00:00:34,600 --> 00:00:37,800 Speaker 3: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold. 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 4: This is buried bones. 13 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 3: Hey, Kate, how's it going today? 14 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: It's going well, Paul, how's it going with you? 15 00:01:05,560 --> 00:01:07,760 Speaker 3: I'm doing pretty good. The weather's changing. 16 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:09,360 Speaker 1: I know springtime? 17 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:09,839 Speaker 3: Right? 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: Do you camp? And I asked this because haven't you 19 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: and I both had reservations a little bit about camping, 20 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: because of how many stories we've both been involved with 21 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: involving people being murdered at camp side. I know they're 22 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:25,399 Speaker 1: going to be camp enthusiast who tell me to stop 23 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: saying stuff like that, But that's the facts. That's what 24 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: happens sometimes. 25 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've consulted on a fair number of 26 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 2: cases that involve people who are out camping, you know, 27 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,000 Speaker 2: and of course a lot of bodies are recovered out 28 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: discovered by campers, you know, as they're out and about 29 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:45,160 Speaker 2: doing their theme because it's in remote areas. 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:47,880 Speaker 3: But you know, I wasn't a. 31 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 2: Big fan of camping, and then as I got into 32 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 2: the off roading and watching some of these YouTube videos 33 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 2: of these guys that will go on like you know, 34 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: week long trips and they're just out in the most 35 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: amazing places. They're isolated, gorgeous, you know, just nature and 36 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 2: sitting around a campfire. You know, each one of them 37 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:14,400 Speaker 2: takes turns, you know, cooking up a meal and you know, 38 00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 2: having a drink here and there and swapping stories. 39 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 3: And it was just like, yeah, that's really cool. 40 00:02:19,520 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: So I spent, oh, I guess, the last year really 41 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 2: building up my jeep for overlanding as well as acquiring 42 00:02:28,760 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 2: camping equipment. And I got out twice last year, but 43 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: I was doing so much travel, I wasn't able to 44 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: do a lot of it. But I'm hoping, you know, 45 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 2: now that the weather's changing, I'm hoping to you know, 46 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,839 Speaker 2: find a good group out here in Colorado and get 47 00:02:42,840 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 2: out there and do some of this dispersed camping in 48 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: addition to the off roading aspects. 49 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: Well, not to be negative here, but are you going 50 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: to bring a weapon with you? Because I would absolutely 51 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: weapon after everything. 52 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 3: Let's just say that I'll be well protected. 53 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: Okay, very good? And is Cora like camping? And does 54 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: your wife like camping? 55 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 3: No? 56 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: And no, this is this is just me myself and 57 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 2: I Okay, all right. 58 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 1: I did not grow up camping. I mean I grew 59 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,960 Speaker 1: up kind of on a farm. So I felt like 60 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: I was sort of camping just because we were out 61 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: in a rural area a lot, and we would stay 62 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: out very late, and so I was sort of what 63 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: do they call it now, like a sleep under you know, 64 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: like when your kid goes out until one in the 65 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: morning and you go pick them up and they don't 66 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:30,399 Speaker 1: want to spend the night, but they want to stay 67 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: up really late with their friends. Yeah, so I would 68 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 1: sort of sleep under camp. We would just stay out 69 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: by the river pitch black as late as possible, but 70 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,520 Speaker 1: we'd always sleep inside. So that's kind of my kind 71 00:03:40,560 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 1: of camping. Okay, but I'm I'm definitely willing to you know, 72 00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,200 Speaker 1: explore it a little bit more. But I do have 73 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: to say I always feel nervous if I can't have 74 00:03:49,360 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: a security system on an Airbnb or anywhere I am, 75 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: or a door person or something just you know, because 76 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: of the nature of the business that we're in. 77 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, with kind of the modern gadgets that 78 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,200 Speaker 2: are out there, you know, you can somewhat set up 79 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 2: a perimeter, you know, around your campsite using you know, 80 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:12,840 Speaker 2: motion detecting lights and alarms and stuff like that in 81 00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: order to get at least you know, an alert that 82 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 2: something is happening out if you're in your in your 83 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: tent or like of course, the off road rigs often 84 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:26,320 Speaker 2: have you know, we have tools, we have recovery gear, 85 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 2: you know, the cookwar stuff, and so there's a lot 86 00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: of expense that goes into these supplies and they can 87 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: be targets when you're out hiking or if I take 88 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,839 Speaker 2: my mountain bike out there, and so having some level 89 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,000 Speaker 2: of security is something that I most certainly will have, 90 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: and so that that's something you may be unaware of, 91 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:46,000 Speaker 2: you know. 92 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:47,480 Speaker 3: My biggest fear. 93 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: Is is the the big creatures, particularly if I'm going 94 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 2: to be in an area with like a grizzly you know, 95 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:58,719 Speaker 2: because you hear about some some of these campers being attacked, 96 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 2: because you know, in a lot of it is just 97 00:05:00,520 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: knowing what to do with your food and your food 98 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: waste and keeping it away from you know, where you 99 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 2: are sleeping, you know, where you know your vehicles are. 100 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,359 Speaker 2: There's strategies to try to minimize encountering that wildlife, but 101 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,000 Speaker 2: every now and then, maybe some things there's just something 102 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 2: you can't avoid. 103 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I get it. I don't know if any amount 104 00:05:20,760 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: of security is going to talk me into sleeping in 105 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 1: a tent, even with the burliest of men in other 106 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: tents around me, it still leaves me with a vulnerable feeling. 107 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:34,840 Speaker 1: But that's okay. You know, I'm also someone who has 108 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: a dead bolt on the cottage here in my own backyard. 109 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: You should well, my stepfather said, you know, you don't 110 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 1: want to come home one day and find somebody living 111 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: in your cottage. And I said, why would they do that? 112 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: And he said, because it's a house and it's unlocked. 113 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: And I thought, okay, yeah, a point. 114 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, no, that is a very real possibility. 115 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, we're talking a little bit about security today. 116 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: In our episode, we are going to be in nineteen twenties, 117 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: North Dakota. We're back to the farm. Love it, love it, 118 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,799 Speaker 1: love a good farm story. But you know what comes 119 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 1: with that we talk about that. What comes with that 120 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:14,839 Speaker 1: is there is sometimes a lack of security, with the 121 00:06:14,880 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: exception of the gazillion guns that are around probably, but 122 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:22,599 Speaker 1: you know, you're isolated and they're vulnerable, and so you know, 123 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:26,799 Speaker 1: we have a family that is under attack. So Paul, 124 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: just before we get into the story, you know, we 125 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,680 Speaker 1: always like to give listeners and viewers a little bit 126 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 1: of a warning. We are talking about the murders of 127 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,840 Speaker 1: children here as well as parents. So I just want 128 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: everybody to be aware that there are some kids who 129 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: end up being the victims of murder in our story. 130 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: Let's go ahead and set the scene. So nineteen twenty 131 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: North Dakota. So we are kind of at the beginning 132 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: of prohibition, but we're in sort of, you know, a 133 00:06:57,960 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 1: very religious area of the country. We're on a farm. 134 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: So the farm is led by a man named Jacob Wolf. 135 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 1: He is the patriarch. He's forty one years old. He's 136 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,559 Speaker 1: married to a woman named Biata and she is thirty 137 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: five years old. So they have a bunch of kids. 138 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: They have six daughters. I don't know if this is 139 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: a situation where Jacob really wanted a son and they 140 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: just kept going. But they're close together. The oldest is 141 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:28,000 Speaker 1: twelve and the youngest is eight months old. And there's 142 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: a thirteen year old farm hand named Jacob and his 143 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: last name is Hoper and he's related to missus Wolfe's 144 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:40,440 Speaker 1: side of the family. So this is April twenty fourth, 145 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 1: it's a Saturday, and this is a tiny community called 146 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: Turtle Lake, which is about sixty miles north of Bismarck. 147 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: I've never been to North Dakota. I've heard it's beautiful. 148 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: Have you been to North Dakota? 149 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,600 Speaker 3: I have not actually never been. 150 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: Okay, So we're in Turtle Lake and the scene set 151 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: here is that there is a couple named John and 152 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: Jesse Kraft. They are driving south toward Turtle Lake. You know, 153 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: it's in the morning, Saturday morning, and on their way 154 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 1: toward this area, they passed by the Wolf's family farm. 155 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:17,600 Speaker 1: So they're friends, their neighbors of these people. They think 156 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: there's something odd happening. This is historical context. This is 157 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: what's interesting, okay, And the reason they think something's wrong 158 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: is John says he had done the same route the 159 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: day before. It was a rainy day and a rainy night. 160 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: So the day that he passed by, there was laundry 161 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: hanging out on the lines that I presume missus Wolfe 162 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: had put out. Then it started raining sometime after John 163 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: had passed, and he thought she was going to go 164 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: and collect the laundry, as anybody would. Nobody wants dry 165 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: laundry out getting rained on. When he passes by the 166 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: family farm the next day with his wife, the laundry 167 00:08:58,679 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 1: is still hanging there, and it had been soaked all 168 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: day rain the day before, all night rain. So isn't 169 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,280 Speaker 1: that interesting? I mean, that was what was alarming to 170 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 1: him was he thought, there's no way this is right. 171 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a kin today that somebody 172 00:09:12,760 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: having their windows on their car rolled down or I 173 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: don't know what that would be, but that was a 174 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 1: red flag for him. 175 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, that's interesting. I mean he's very observant, 176 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:25,800 Speaker 2: you know, So he's noticing it in one direction, and 177 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 2: then the next day he noticed it's still up and 178 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: he's putting two and two together. So obviously this is 179 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 2: the era that you know we're talking about is that. 180 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 3: You know, for somebody like me, I wouldn't think. 181 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: About that, but they're living that that life, and they're 182 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,760 Speaker 2: recognizing that's not right. It's almost like today, if you 183 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:47,880 Speaker 2: see a window screen off of a front window of 184 00:09:47,920 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 2: a house, you know most of us would go, that 185 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 2: doesn't look right. 186 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 1: I think I probably told you this story before. I 187 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 1: interviewed a forensic psychologist who did a lot of interviewing 188 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: of a f suspects, victims and all of that, and 189 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: you know, I was asking her a story. I was 190 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: talking to her about a tenfold story where you know, 191 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: there's a man who murders his family and he had 192 00:10:11,200 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 1: been in the eighteen hundreds and he had been just 193 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: spouting off really negative things about the Catholics. They're gonna 194 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 1: kill everybody, all this stuff, which sounded to her to be, 195 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: you know, like schizophrenia or something, some sort of a mania. 196 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: So when I went to a historian with the Catholic 197 00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: Church and I described what this man was saying, he said, 198 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: everybody said that about the Catholics in the eighteen hundreds. 199 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: That's not crazy, that's social context. That's exactly what happened. 200 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:43,839 Speaker 1: So then when I talked to her again, the forensic psychologist. 201 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 1: She said, that's why you have to know that what's 202 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: crazy in one country. What you would think is, you know, 203 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: when they're saying stuff, you're going, well, that person has 204 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 1: to be insane, is not insane? 205 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and I think that's one of the 206 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 2: things that I've learned because, you know, working the older cases, 207 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:03,479 Speaker 2: part of developing an understanding of the cases is understanding 208 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: the area where the crime occurred at the time the 209 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 2: crime occurred, you know, forty years prior than today. But 210 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: you know, the types of cases that you're talking about, 211 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: we've had such dramatic changes in our society. You know, 212 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 2: that's early on. You do such a good job of 213 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 2: at least you know, when you say set the scene, 214 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 2: it's not just okay, this is where we're at. Well, 215 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: this is what's going on in history, this is this 216 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: you know world, And it helps me kind of start 217 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 2: assessing as you start getting into details of the case. Okay, 218 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: this is how they're thinking back in the day, just 219 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: like you did with the laundry on the clothesline. 220 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, we have done stories about people 221 00:11:43,080 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: drowning in cisterns and wells we don't see a lot 222 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,400 Speaker 1: of those these days, so you see that as a 223 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: murder weapon much more common. We've done a lot of 224 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 1: acts murder stories. Everybody had an axe because that's what 225 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: the wood was the fuel source for a lot of 226 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:02,400 Speaker 1: these communities. So it's interesting to see how crime sort 227 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: of moves in sync with wherever we are. You know, 228 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:09,320 Speaker 1: we know that an axe is available in everybody's household 229 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundred, So if somebody wants to go 230 00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: and kill someone and wants to use a weapon there, 231 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: Sure there are kitchen knives, but you probably know where 232 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:17,920 Speaker 1: to get an axe. So I don't know. I just 233 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: I always want to point out things like that, Like, okay, 234 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: so that's what made John very alarmed. Was this laundry 235 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,319 Speaker 1: hanging outside that was getting soaked that no country woman 236 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: would have thought would be a good idea. So let 237 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: me tell you a little bit about the wolves. Jacob 238 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: is a very successful farmer. Like I said, he's forty one, 239 00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:41,120 Speaker 1: well liked in the community. No red flags with Jacob. 240 00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:45,200 Speaker 1: He's known for taking immaculate care of his farm and 241 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: he uses sort of the latest machinery. He is someone 242 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: who seems to be a loving father and a loving husband. 243 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 1: Sometimes we talk about these farmers who are jerks. They're 244 00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: abusive there, you know, and that does not seem like Jacob. 245 00:13:04,080 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: There doesn't seem to be a lot of negative with 246 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: Jacob so far. But we'll see. John Craft, the neighbor, 247 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: pulls up to the wolf's farmhouse and looks around the 248 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 1: outside of the house. He hears pigs rooting around in 249 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,560 Speaker 1: the barn, and he goes to check it out. And 250 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:21,960 Speaker 1: when he gets to the barn, this is when this 251 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: story really starts to unravel. He sees three bodies, partially 252 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: uncovered by dirt and hay. The distribution of the bodies 253 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 1: is interesting. So there is Jacob the dad, and he 254 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: is dead. Two of his daughters, the nine year old 255 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 1: who is Maria, and the seven year old Edna, are 256 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: with him. Of course, John is very, very alarmed. So 257 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: if I were John, I would have then hopped in 258 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: my car and took off. He does not do that, 259 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:56,080 Speaker 1: and I guess Jesse stays in the car his wife. 260 00:13:56,520 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: He decides to despite I'm sure, feeling very He goes 261 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: to the house and in the kitchen. When he walks in, 262 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: the table is set for a meal, but the chairs 263 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:13,720 Speaker 1: are disturbed, and there's blood on the floor, and he 264 00:14:13,760 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: walks over. There's a trap door that goes to the 265 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: cellar that is in the kitchen, and this was very common, right, 266 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: I mean you could kind of like bring things easily 267 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: in and out of a trap door through the kitchen, 268 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: could store all your produce and everything. I will also 269 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 1: remind you that I have done many stories about people 270 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: being murdered and then shoved down a very similar trap 271 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: door into the basement area. So I'm sure he's aware 272 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: of there being some kind of a danger here. 273 00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:43,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 274 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, So there's blood on the floor in the kitchen, yep, 275 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 2: chairs are disturbed, as if maybe there was a struggle 276 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: in the kitchen. 277 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 3: But no body's in the kitchen, no, okay. 278 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: He walks over to the trap door that goes to 279 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: the cellar and when he looks down, so it's open. 280 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: He looks down and there are five more bodies. He 281 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 1: does not seem to go down to the cellar just yet. 282 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,600 Speaker 1: He looks through the rest of the house. He goes 283 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: to a bedroom and there's a crib. And remember they 284 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:21,400 Speaker 1: had an eight month old. She is there. Her name 285 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 1: is Emma. She's alive, she is freezing. She is soaked. 286 00:15:26,240 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: I think they had the windows open, and of course 287 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: it's been this cold rain, April rain, so she is 288 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: soaked and she is soiled, and she is very weak, 289 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: but she's alive. Police will later say they believe that 290 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 1: she had been on her own for two days with 291 00:15:42,920 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: no food, no nothing. So we've got five bodies. They 292 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: are a family of eight plus a farm hand. So 293 00:15:50,800 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: now the Crafts are terrified. Now they leave, They're done 294 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,840 Speaker 1: exploring because I think they think everybody's accounted for. So 295 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: the only survivor is in eight month old and we 296 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: don't know why. Jesse Kraft, the wife, takes Emma. John 297 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:09,240 Speaker 1: takes them both to the house and he drives to 298 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: the town of Turtle Lake where there's a phone. Because 299 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 1: it's nineteen twenty, especially kind of in this area, would 300 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: have been very surprising for anybody to have a phone 301 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: residentially unless they had a lot of money at this point. 302 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,400 Speaker 1: So he goes, he finds a phone, and he calls 303 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: the sheriff's office in Washburn, North Dakota, which is about 304 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: twenty two miles away. And this is a good reminder 305 00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: of the time period because there is, like I said, 306 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: almost no phones around, and then the closest law enforcement 307 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: is more than twenty miles away, so things are moving 308 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: in slow motion. These people are all dead. It probably 309 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: looked clear to John that they were all dead, and 310 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: they had been for a long time. But I mean, 311 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: lord knows how long it took from him discovering the 312 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: bodies for then law enforcement to come from Washburn to 313 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: be able to report to this. And that just seems like, 314 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, nowadays, hopefully you have police responding 315 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:07,120 Speaker 1: within minutes in some cases, and this. 316 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: Is very different now, you know, And I'm even thinking 317 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 2: within that sheriff's office. It's not like back in the 318 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 2: nineteen twenties they had a dispatch center. Yes, so you're 319 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: reliant upon probably an employee of the sheriff's office actually 320 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 2: being in the office and answering the phone, and then 321 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 2: they somehow have to communicate, you know, to the officers 322 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: the information, and now the officers have to respond. You know, 323 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 2: I don't know if the sheriff's office had you know, 324 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,639 Speaker 2: beats spread across the county or not, or are they 325 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 2: all just centralized up there in Washburn and now they're 326 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 2: having to drive all the way from Washburn down to 327 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 2: the Turtle Lake area. 328 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I think we do have 329 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,480 Speaker 1: quite a few officers responding, so there must have been, 330 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: you know, other places, but last twenty two miles is 331 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: the closest that tells you how isolated Turtle Lake was. 332 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: So we have a sheriff and I'm gonna say his 333 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: name once because this is one of those names. It's Scandinavian, 334 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: so it's Ula Steath and Rude. So he is actually 335 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 1: with the state's attorney for the county and they have 336 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:20,720 Speaker 1: been traveling together to Bismarck, you know, on a case. 337 00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 1: So when the sheriff gets the message, the state's attorneys 338 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 1: goes with him and they go to Turtle Lake. And 339 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: when the sheriff gets to the farmhouse, we know what happens. Boy, 340 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,159 Speaker 1: I mean, I could say it's the media, but it's not. 341 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 1: The neighbors are everywhere. They're swarming this place, so it's 342 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 1: contamination city, you could tell, all over the place, and 343 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 1: they're there to help. But John says, it's okay. The 344 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: bodies are exactly where they were when I found them. 345 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 1: Nobody's touched the bodies, but people are trying to be helpful, 346 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: which doesn't surprise me. But you know therein was the 347 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:58,399 Speaker 1: issue that we have is there's no coordinating off this 348 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: crime scene. I don't actually think that that ever does happen, 349 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: So you know already you have a little bit of 350 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 1: a danger of course, that things are going to get 351 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: ruined and not be able to use in court if 352 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: they can even track down who did this. 353 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:16,919 Speaker 2: You know, my initial thoughts are because it's common to 354 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 2: have to deal with a level of crime scene contamination 355 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: just because of you know, family friends discovering let's say 356 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,879 Speaker 2: the deceased in a residence, possibly moving the body or 357 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 2: checking bidles, first responders, officers, paramedics coming. You know, paramedics 358 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,440 Speaker 2: can make a suicide look like a homicide just because 359 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 2: of their life saving measures. So it's normal to have 360 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: to When I first would arrive at a crime scene, 361 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:49,879 Speaker 2: I'm asking, so what all has happened since the crime 362 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 2: scene was discovered, so I can take into account those activities. 363 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: But at a certain point, like in this case, where 364 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:03,320 Speaker 2: you have multiple neighbors wandering around, you know, from my perspective, 365 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:08,160 Speaker 2: it's really going to be the trampling of critical evidence 366 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 2: that could be interpreted to help understand what happened. As 367 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 2: well as in this day and age, evidence that potentially 368 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:18,560 Speaker 2: could be used to solve the case that you know, 369 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: they've just completely obliterated, But it doesn't negate the possibility 370 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,639 Speaker 2: of getting still good information, you know, from from the 371 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 2: crime scene. 372 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: And you're talking about two different crime scenes, I'm assuming 373 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,520 Speaker 1: because we've got the kitchen the seller, you know, together, 374 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:38,200 Speaker 1: and then we've got the barn. So somehow these three people, 375 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: these two little girls and their dad were in the 376 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: barn and then the rest of the family is in 377 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:47,160 Speaker 1: the kitchen. So there's so much opportunity for condamnation. 378 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,640 Speaker 2: Right, I wouldn't necessarily call it two different crime scenes, 379 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,720 Speaker 2: you know, because I would I would be establishing a 380 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: crime scene perimeter that would encompass that entire you know, 381 00:20:57,440 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 2: at least residential aspects and the outlying grounds around where 382 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 2: these two you know, the barn and the family house 383 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,399 Speaker 2: is at. But yes, within that perimeter you have where 384 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 2: the bodies are, but we don't know what's transpired yet, 385 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 2: you know, so you could have evidence anywhere within that perimeter, 386 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:26,959 Speaker 2: so it really is one big crime scene. 387 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 1: Well, the sheriff immediately starts interviewing neighbors, figuring out when 388 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,400 Speaker 1: was the last time they saw the wolves. That's where 389 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 1: they come up with the idea that Emma had been 390 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: by herself crying for two days. That was the last 391 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: time two days earlier, when I'm presuming Missus Wolf put 392 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: up that laundry. There was you know, the day when 393 00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: it was raining, and then the next day when they 394 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:52,920 Speaker 1: were discovered. So you know, she's alive and she's being 395 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: taken care of by Missus Kraft. But the sheriff and 396 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: the coroner put together a corner's jury, and we know 397 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: these are generally lay people who come in. Their job 398 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: is to try to establish cause of death. Right, Is 399 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: that kind of the simplified way of explaining it. 400 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, the coroner's jury or grand jury. This 401 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: is where now the corners puts on the findings and 402 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: lays out not only cause of death, but are looking 403 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 2: to the jurors to determined manner of death. You know, 404 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 2: are you dealing with you know, homicide, accidental, natural, et cetera. 405 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: Well, the corner's jury, you know, comes together and they're 406 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: gathering information, they're being updated. Let me tell you a 407 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: little bit about what the sheriff thinks, and then we 408 00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 1: need to talk about how they died, and what the 409 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 1: sheriff thinks the sequencing is This sheriff immediately wonders if 410 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 1: this is a murder suicide, which was not going to 411 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: be unheard of in this time period certainly. I mean, 412 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: I have read so many accounts of murder suicides, a 413 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: husband's killing families or you know, killing their wives in 414 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,760 Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties especially and then closer to the thirties, 415 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: as we're approaching the Great Depression, in the middle of 416 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 1: the Great Depression. So I understand that way of thinking. 417 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: Everybody died of gunshots. Everybody had been shot except the 418 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: three year old Martha. She had been hit with the 419 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: blunt end of a hatchet. So Martha was not with dad. 420 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,360 Speaker 1: She was one of the people who was down in 421 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: the cellar, and everybody else had been shot. And I 422 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: can kind of give you more details about that, but 423 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 1: I can say that Jacob Hoefer is the fifth body. 424 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: That's the farm hand, and then there's the mom and 425 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: three girls. So there's the three girls in the basement 426 00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 1: with the mom in the farm hand, and then the 427 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: two girls in the barn with the dad. And then 428 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: the survivor is the sixth daughter, the baby Okay, so 429 00:23:57,320 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 1: what do you think so far? I mean, that's a 430 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: lot of people. 431 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, right now, I really don't have enough 432 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 2: to be able to even. 433 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,880 Speaker 3: Start thinking about what occurred. You know, you've got. 434 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 2: Of the eight homicide victims, seven are shot. 435 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 3: Right now. 436 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:17,960 Speaker 2: I don't know is it just one gun that was 437 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 2: used or if we have multiple guns being used. 438 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 3: You have a three year old girl that's. 439 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,400 Speaker 2: Being bludgeoned, and the bodies are distributed. You know, there's 440 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: two clusters. You have the father and two girls out 441 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 2: in the barn, and then you have the mother, the 442 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 2: farm hand, and three girls down in the basement. Because 443 00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: we have these two separate clusters of victims, does that 444 00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:44,159 Speaker 2: indicate that these victims were let's say the father and 445 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: the two girls were out in the barn doing their 446 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 2: normal farming aspects, whatever that would have been out in 447 00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 2: the barn at whatever particular time of day that this 448 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:55,720 Speaker 2: the homicide occurred. 449 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 3: And then everybody else is inside the house. Is everybody 450 00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 3: rounded up? You know? 451 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 2: And it sounds like there was some disturbance in the kitchen, 452 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 2: and is maybe the mother or the farm hand Jacob, 453 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,400 Speaker 2: who's the oldest and is the male of this cluster, 454 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,560 Speaker 2: you know, is their resistance by these two larger victims, 455 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 2: you know, and the offender or offenders had to now 456 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, inflict some sort of control mechanism causing bleeding 457 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: in the kitchen before they're forced downstairs. Right now, I'm 458 00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 2: assuming they're killed downstairs, but that is just an assumption 459 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:38,080 Speaker 2: until I get more information. But it seems likely at 460 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,160 Speaker 2: this point in time that the distribution of the bodies 461 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 2: possibly is an indication of the time of day in 462 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 2: which the homicide occurred, just because these people were doing 463 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,000 Speaker 2: their normal, you know, routine, and that's when the offender 464 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:54,440 Speaker 2: or the offenders attacked. 465 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: Well, I have two choices for you to go. 466 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 3: And the multiple choice it is it's which. 467 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: Door do you want? Do you want to hear about 468 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: the weapon and the fatal shots with all of these people, 469 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: or do you want to see a photo of the kitchen? 470 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 1: And I think an okay shot of the trap door 471 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: that shows some of the blood, a real photo. 472 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 3: You know, I love photos. Let me see the photo. 473 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: Okay, here we go. God, I thought you were gonna 474 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: I thought you usually liked to go right to the autopsies, 475 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: but see you should. This is where I get surprised. 476 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 1: You surprise me. Okay, now I've already kind of blown 477 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,879 Speaker 1: it up, but if you want me to blow it 478 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:35,680 Speaker 1: up more, I can. 479 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: Can you see it so, you know, one of the 480 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: things that that's kind of jumping out at me. And 481 00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 2: I see where the trap door is, which is, you know, 482 00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 2: towards the back of this photo, and it appears that 483 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 2: there's a doorway of some sort beyond where the trap 484 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 2: door is located. The two chairs that likely have been 485 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: pulled away from the table, most likely during crime scene processing. 486 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:05,879 Speaker 2: That there appears to be a saw, the handle of 487 00:27:05,920 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 2: a saw on one of the chairs, and my suspicion 488 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,360 Speaker 2: is is that that that may be something that individuals 489 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 2: involved in investigating the case used in order to be 490 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 2: able to gain greater access downstairs. They possibly saw through 491 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 2: some wood aspect of the door itself. But of note 492 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:33,879 Speaker 2: in the foreground on the floor, now that I can 493 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 2: zoom in on the on the staining on the floor, 494 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 2: you know, of course, because it's black and white, I 495 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: can't say, you know, if this is like red staining 496 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 2: consistent with blood, but it has all the appearances of 497 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 2: being stains that are are on this floor. And one 498 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 2: of the stains is a long linear smear. Something is 499 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 2: being drug, most likely a body is being drug along 500 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,880 Speaker 2: this floor towards the trap door. You know, like there's 501 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,520 Speaker 2: a minor, you know, small pool of blood and it 502 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: might be like an area rug that's right on the floor, 503 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 2: right next to the kitchen table. 504 00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:13,159 Speaker 1: It's like burlap almost to me. 505 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:17,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I would say it's it's it's a 506 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: fabric of some sort and there appears to be a 507 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 2: pool on it. There's some nondescript white clumps, which all 508 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:30,560 Speaker 2: I can say is my speculation, considering that we have 509 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 2: a bludgeoning victim, the three year old girl, that those 510 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 2: white clumps could be brain matter, unfortunately, but I can't 511 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: say that for sure in this photo, but there's a 512 00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 2: fair number of what appeared to be large drops drip patterns, 513 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: as well as maybe some contact transfers of some sort 514 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 2: of bloody objects, you know, touching the top of this. 515 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:57,760 Speaker 2: So there is you know, if I'm right, and that's 516 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,400 Speaker 2: that's brain matter that's on the floor there. Than the 517 00:29:00,440 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 2: three year old was hit with the hatchet upstairs and 518 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 2: then you know, taken downstairs. It appears that the trap 519 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,680 Speaker 2: door has been removed, and I don't know if that 520 00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 2: door was hinged in any capacity. 521 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,360 Speaker 3: Or if it just literally lifted up. 522 00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 2: But there is what appears to be a large dark 523 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:22,440 Speaker 2: stain on the side that is facing the camera, you know, 524 00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 2: and if that's if that's a blood stain, that would 525 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 2: be consistent with a blood pool, which would indicate that 526 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 2: somebody laid on that location after bleeding for a period 527 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:34,680 Speaker 2: of time. 528 00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:37,040 Speaker 3: But it's disrupted. 529 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 2: It's right at the edge, and I can't see where 530 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 2: it matches up. 531 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 3: If there's any. 532 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 2: Stained area on the floor that would indicate that maybe 533 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 2: a bleeding victim was laying motionless for a period of time. 534 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 2: But yeah, there's definitely some bleeding that's occurring up here, 535 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 2: possibly indicative of either somebody was killed or severely incapacitated 536 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: before being taken downstairs. 537 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 3: And it's interesting, you. 538 00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 2: Know, you got five bodies inside the residence, and all 539 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: five bodies are taken downstairs. So the offender took the 540 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: time in essence to hide the bodies. That may be 541 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: merely just to delay the discovery, even though the blood 542 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 2: staining would be alarming by anybody walking into this location. 543 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, but he didn't put the door back on the 544 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 1: trap door because John Kraft said, when he walked in, 545 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: you know, he went over right over to the trap 546 00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: door because it was open. 547 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and that's that's significant. 548 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 2: And you know, I don't know if this basement has 549 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 2: another exit where he doesn't have to come back up 550 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: into the residence, or you know, he's you know, taking 551 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 2: the bodies downstairs. Maybe something disturbs him. And I'm just 552 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 2: using the heat pronoun and singular just as a matter 553 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,920 Speaker 2: of convenience. But if the offender is taking the time 554 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: to hide the bodies downstairs, it is inconsistent to leave 555 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:01,640 Speaker 2: the trap door up like that, for sure. 556 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I thought he just maybe dumped them, like 557 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:06,880 Speaker 1: from the he killed all these people and then pushed 558 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 1: their bodies, dragged them and pushed them down into it, 559 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,400 Speaker 1: rather than placing them down. But what do you think 560 00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:11,800 Speaker 1: about that. 561 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 2: I'd have to see the distribution of the bodies. But 562 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 2: if that's what he's doing, it's still effort, right, It's 563 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,960 Speaker 2: still time. You've got five bodies that he's purposely putting 564 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,479 Speaker 2: down into this this hole in the floor in essence, 565 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 2: So why do the effort to do that and not 566 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 2: make further effort to cover up that may be where 567 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 2: you know, he he henks up something outside, there's a 568 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 2: noise outside, and he's going, got no shit, I got 569 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,040 Speaker 2: to get out of here. Or his internal clock is 570 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 2: thinking this is taking too long, and he just he bails. 571 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 3: You know. So the photo itself is pretty high quality. 572 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: This is something I'd be able to throw into photoshop, 573 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:56,000 Speaker 2: enhance it and probably be able to you know, get 574 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: more information out of it. 575 00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, it always surprises me, hows the photos can be, 576 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, I mean American Sherlock. My book took place 577 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: between nineteen twenty and nineteen thirty three, and Oscar Heinrich 578 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: loved photography and he loved crime scene photography and it 579 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 1: just saved my bacon. Man, there's no better writing than 580 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:16,719 Speaker 1: to be able to do it off of photographs. You 581 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: have all that description, and he had so much detail, 582 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: and he knew how to blow it up and present 583 00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: it to you know, he would take pieces of sand 584 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:27,600 Speaker 1: and blow them up so they almost look like boulders 585 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: and print them out and or you know, develop them 586 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,040 Speaker 1: and take them to jury so that they could understand geology. 587 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: So photography is more advancing we think in this time period. 588 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 2: Now, for sure, it always is, you know, and they 589 00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 2: were using very large format cameras and those you know, 590 00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,320 Speaker 2: the larger the format, you know, basically the higher the resolution. 591 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,000 Speaker 2: You know, when you're dealing with this film based film 592 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 2: is amazing. You know, my entire crime scene career, all 593 00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,720 Speaker 2: I did was shoot film, whether it be thirty five 594 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 2: millimeter or I was doing you know, four x. 595 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 3: Five sheet film. 596 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: And you know, digital cameras even today, with the high 597 00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 2: resolutions that you see, the high number of megapixels, they 598 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 2: can't touch what film can do because you're talking about 599 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,600 Speaker 2: capturing light at the molecular level in film. 600 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: Well, I have one crappy photo for you, but I 601 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: don't think you're not going to need it to be good. 602 00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:25,120 Speaker 1: So look at the next one in that document that 603 00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,280 Speaker 1: I sent you, and it's the house. It's super isolated. 604 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: It just looks like dirt everywhere. 605 00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know this is a photo. 606 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 2: It says it's outside of the Wolf House on the 607 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 2: day of the funeral, and there's a lot of people 608 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: wearing black, you know, kind of congregating in the foreground. 609 00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 3: And the house itself. 610 00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 2: It appears, at least the main part of the house 611 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 2: appears to be two storied. A main floor and then 612 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: maybe an attic that has a window in it, you know, 613 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 2: with the pitched roof kind of I've been inside old 614 00:33:59,000 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 2: houses like this. 615 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 3: You can go up into the. 616 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 2: Attic and you have to kind of duck down, and 617 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 2: the angle of the inside of the roof, you know, 618 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 2: the ceiling is angled with the angle of the roof 619 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 2: and then attached on the right hand side in the 620 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:18,440 Speaker 2: photograph appears to be a small It almost looks like 621 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,839 Speaker 2: an add on to this house single story. I don't 622 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,920 Speaker 2: know if that would just be a single room or 623 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 2: if it's subdivided. It appears there might be a chimney 624 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 2: to that, so maybe a living space, a living area. 625 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,320 Speaker 2: And then you know, right where these two structures join, 626 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 2: there's an entry way of some sort. It looks like 627 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 2: you walk in through a door. And this may be 628 00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 2: like a little little foyer, sort of like a wet 629 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,120 Speaker 2: room if you live in Colorado where I'm at, where 630 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:51,239 Speaker 2: you can take your winter clothes off without bringing you know, 631 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,720 Speaker 2: bringing all the you know, the snow and mud into 632 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:59,480 Speaker 2: the inside of the house. But the surrounding area, for sure, 633 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 2: at least with what can be seen in this photograph, 634 00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 2: just looks, you know, flat and dirt. 635 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,160 Speaker 1: Flat and dirt. Now I have a theory about those 636 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: two rooms that you're talking about, because when I saw 637 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: this photo, this looked an awful lot like my grandparents 638 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,919 Speaker 1: who were in Missouri had a root cellar. It wasn't 639 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: attached to their house, but the entryway looked very similar. 640 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: Where you walk in and it's above ground. You open 641 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: the door, and my grandmother, my granny was what I 642 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,719 Speaker 1: called her, would line the shelves with empty cans and 643 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:34,279 Speaker 1: empty glass bottles, but then you went underground and that's 644 00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 1: where everything was. So I wonder if this is the 645 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,960 Speaker 1: kitchen on the right hand side, okay, and the cellar 646 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: and the cellar entry attached, because that would kind of 647 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,759 Speaker 1: make sense. I don't know if the kitchen would be 648 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,719 Speaker 1: in the main part of the house, but I don't know. 649 00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:53,320 Speaker 1: It's hard to tell from any of these photos. 650 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,439 Speaker 2: It looks like there's a chimney on both the main 651 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 2: house as well as this secondary structure, you know, and 652 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 2: there was that what appeared to be that wood burning oven. 653 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 2: So those chimneys would indicate where that oven is located at. 654 00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,280 Speaker 2: But yeah, I wouldn't dispute your thought on that at all. 655 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,879 Speaker 2: It almost appears the main house. Those windows on the 656 00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,080 Speaker 2: first floor, there's a lot of distance between the bottom 657 00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,399 Speaker 2: of those windows and the ground, and so that might 658 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 2: be indicative of beneath theirs, where there's a the basement, 659 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 2: but I couldn't say that for sure. 660 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I was going to go back up and look, 661 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: you can see windows in the kitchen area. It's just 662 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: hard to tell with this. I mean, it's you know, 663 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 1: we need many more photos. But the next photo is 664 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,839 Speaker 1: a cutie Patuti baby baby Emma, who I will tie 665 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: in love looking at baby photos, even though to be honest, 666 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,680 Speaker 1: you know, I am not a baby person. I mean, 667 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:55,719 Speaker 1: I loved my own kids, but the older that my 668 00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,759 Speaker 1: kids got and the more self sufficient there were, the 669 00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:01,680 Speaker 1: more I seem to really appreciate them. But she's so 670 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: cute and she recovers and she ends up having a 671 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: very long, good life. But this is you know, this 672 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: is her. This is a photo looks like she's got 673 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: like a little rattle or something. 674 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 3: Yep. 675 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: So this next one is the last one I want 676 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,279 Speaker 1: you to look at. And I am showing you this 677 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: image because number one, I think it is really interestingly 678 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: composed and it's clear, and it's startling to me, So 679 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,560 Speaker 1: why don't you give me your impressions what you see here? 680 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 3: Well, you know, this is a photo. 681 00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 2: It's showing eight caskets and then a large group of people, 682 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 2: you know, dressed mostly in dark except for appears there's 683 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 2: a few babies that are are. 684 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 3: In white, and then a building in. 685 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 2: The background to some sort you know, the caskets. What 686 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 2: you know kind of strikes me first is the two 687 00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 2: caskets on either end are dark, and then the caskets 688 00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 2: in the middle are all light assuming white or very 689 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:06,439 Speaker 2: light colored. And then the two caskets towards the right, 690 00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 2: the two white caskets towards the right next to the 691 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 2: large dark one are They're small. Obviously these are little children, 692 00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,440 Speaker 2: you know, so it's interesting they had to take the 693 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:20,799 Speaker 2: time to display the caskets like this and then get 694 00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 2: this group to pose for a photograph, and then have 695 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: a cameraman using film based photography to sit there and 696 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,279 Speaker 2: probably take multiple photos of this. I'm not sure it 697 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 2: seems like an unusual photo to take, but you know, 698 00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 2: I think the number of caskets, the size of the caskets, 699 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 2: it just indicates, you know, you know, this is a 700 00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 2: whole family basically. 701 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think that this is a town of immigrants, 702 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:50,080 Speaker 1: both like German and Russian, and so this is I think, 703 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,040 Speaker 1: a very tight knit community. I don't know if I've 704 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,880 Speaker 1: ever shown you any of the death photos that I've used, 705 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,640 Speaker 1: the death ones, you know, where they take photographs of 706 00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: people after they've died in they're in their caskets. I'm 707 00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 1: actually surprised we didn't get any of those with this, 708 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,200 Speaker 1: but that was such a tradition. Yeah, I think this 709 00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:12,000 Speaker 1: image is startling. I mean it shows the impact when 710 00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: you look at all of these caskets and you just think, 711 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 1: of my god, somebody killed all of these people, right, 712 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,000 Speaker 1: it's very sad and to see the tiny caskets. But 713 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: I've never actually seen male female designated caskets before. I 714 00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,399 Speaker 1: think that's what you're saying. It's a little odd, but. 715 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,719 Speaker 2: Okay, you know, and I was even thinking, could that 716 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,960 Speaker 2: be uh, you know, Jacob and his wife, you know, 717 00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 2: the adults, the patriarch and matriarch at the family and 718 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 2: the dark caskets and then their kids. And I'm assuming 719 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,000 Speaker 2: would the farm hand be in this? Would Jacob the 720 00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 2: farmhand be part of this? 721 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:45,760 Speaker 1: How many do we have we have eight people totaled, 722 00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:46,960 Speaker 1: you have eight caskets. 723 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I think he's also included. And he's he's 724 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,279 Speaker 2: a relative on the mother's side, if I remember you right, 725 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 2: say so, Yeah, so he's he's he's included as part 726 00:39:55,960 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 2: of the family. 727 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: Well, let's get out of the photograph area here, let's 728 00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: get back to the story. So, you know, we don't 729 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:05,719 Speaker 1: often get photographs, so I'm always grateful when we have them. 730 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 3: I am too. 731 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the sheriff wonders if this is somehow, some 732 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,680 Speaker 1: way murder suicide, and then we start getting information back 733 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: from the corner. So this was a shotgun and here's 734 00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,359 Speaker 1: who had which injuries. Jacob the dad, the forty one 735 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: year old. He was shot once with a shotgun at 736 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 1: close range from behind and to the side, and that 737 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: he was shot in the head, so kind of behind 738 00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: and to the side. He had also been shot once 739 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: from a distance in the back. So I can just 740 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:39,839 Speaker 1: tell you all of these, or you can comment on 741 00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 1: each one. So one kind of the back of the head, 742 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: close range, one very far back but in the back. 743 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,000 Speaker 2: Right, So this is this is Jacob, you know. And 744 00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 2: of course when you start thinking about murder suicide, you know, 745 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,719 Speaker 2: the most likely perpetrator of that within a family is 746 00:40:56,760 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 2: going to be the husband father. However, the location of 747 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:05,919 Speaker 2: his shots, once in the back and towards the back 748 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 2: of his head, kind of to the back side of 749 00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:12,239 Speaker 2: his head, those locations suggest that somebody else shot him, 750 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 2: and so at this point in time, I don't believe 751 00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:21,360 Speaker 2: it's possible to conclude that Jacob shot himself with a shotgun. 752 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 2: And I'm assuming that the shotgun is a standard laying shotgun, 753 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:29,239 Speaker 2: not you know, some super sowd off variant. You know, 754 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,040 Speaker 2: that he would be able to potentially wield like a handgun, 755 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:36,440 Speaker 2: So that's interesting, you know, I think that's one thing 756 00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:41,239 Speaker 2: I can conclude from that information is Jacob is a 757 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 2: victim and he is not the killer. 758 00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, and oftentimes we do have the patriarch of the 759 00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,640 Speaker 1: family as the killer, and it takes a while to 760 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:53,680 Speaker 1: sort that out. So injuries in the barn, Maria who's nine, 761 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: has been shot in the back of the head at 762 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:58,759 Speaker 1: close range. This was an interesting detail. Her hair was 763 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 1: singed so very close range. 764 00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: Is that right? 765 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,000 Speaker 1: Or does that matter? I mean, doesn't the shotgun singe 766 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,800 Speaker 1: everything in sight? Is that the point? 767 00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:11,680 Speaker 2: You know, it's when you start talking about hair being singed. 768 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 2: The shotgun is close enough to which the hot gases 769 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,279 Speaker 2: that come out of the end of the barrel. It's 770 00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,759 Speaker 2: not just the rounds. Whatever type of ammunition was used, 771 00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 2: whether it be a bird shot, which is more like 772 00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:27,360 Speaker 2: your bebes, right, you have a whole bunch of little bebes, 773 00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,360 Speaker 2: or you have like what law enforcement uses, your double 774 00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 2: ott buck, which is like nine marble sized rounds that 775 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:39,839 Speaker 2: come out. And then sometimes we'll have a slug being used, 776 00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:41,760 Speaker 2: which is this very if it's like a twelve gage, 777 00:42:41,760 --> 00:42:46,120 Speaker 2: it's this very large single round, so that comes out. 778 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:49,680 Speaker 2: But then you also have the gases that occur during 779 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:53,400 Speaker 2: the combustion of the gunpowder. That's what forces you know, 780 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:58,160 Speaker 2: the rounds out. Also you have unburnt gunpowder, and that's 781 00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 2: what caused what you call stippling, how you see gunpowder. 782 00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 3: Embedded in the skin. 783 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 2: And different guns at different distances will leave evidence of 784 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 2: the distance that they were from their target based on 785 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 2: whatever is present. A shotgun, of course, is going to 786 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,920 Speaker 2: you know, project its hot gases out further than a handgun, 787 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,560 Speaker 2: but not that much further, you know, So this is 788 00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,680 Speaker 2: telling me that this is a fairly close range shot. 789 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:30,120 Speaker 2: I'm talking about within several feet again not knowing that 790 00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,040 Speaker 2: you know, the gauge of the shotgun and the rounds. 791 00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 2: But shotguns are devastating weapons. So if you have a 792 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:42,399 Speaker 2: reasonably close shot to somebody's head with a shotgun, these 793 00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:46,839 Speaker 2: heads are not in good shape, you know. So this 794 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,480 Speaker 2: is a very ugly scene in all likelihood. 795 00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:54,440 Speaker 1: Okay, so now we know we've got Jacob who's been 796 00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,080 Speaker 1: shot with the shotgun at close range from behind back 797 00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,160 Speaker 1: of the head. And then we've got Maria and ednae 798 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,440 Speaker 1: year old and the seven year old who were apparently 799 00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:04,840 Speaker 1: with him, shot in the back of the head at 800 00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:08,800 Speaker 1: close range. And then you know, we have more people 801 00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:10,200 Speaker 1: that we have to talk about. 802 00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:12,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, so we got Jacob and the two 803 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 2: girls who are executed out in the barn. Very curious 804 00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,719 Speaker 2: to know, you know, what happened to the victims that 805 00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:20,800 Speaker 2: are found inside the house down in the basement. 806 00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: I think this is such a big story that we're 807 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: going to need to address that in the next episode. 808 00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,520 Speaker 3: Okay, so you're going to make me wait a week then. 809 00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:33,480 Speaker 1: On an autopsy. I don't know if I've ever done 810 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:38,800 Speaker 1: that before, able to tell you what happens next. But yeah, 811 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,040 Speaker 1: this is a really intense story and with so many victims, 812 00:44:42,160 --> 00:44:46,000 Speaker 1: is one of the probably the largest number that we've had, 813 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,960 Speaker 1: so I just want to make sure we take our time, 814 00:44:49,120 --> 00:44:52,240 Speaker 1: so I will talk to you about it more next week. 815 00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:54,279 Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I'm looking forward to it. 816 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 4: This has been an exactly right Pa production. 817 00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 2: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Wrightmedia 818 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,280 Speaker 2: dot com slash Buried Bones sources. 819 00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 4: Our senior producer is Alexis Emosi. 820 00:45:09,120 --> 00:45:13,360 Speaker 2: Research by Maren mcclashan, Ali Elkin, and Kate Winkler Dawson. 821 00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 4: Our mixing engineer is Ben Tolliday. 822 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:18,480 Speaker 3: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel. 823 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:20,760 Speaker 4: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac. 824 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,160 Speaker 2: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark and Daniel Kramer. 825 00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:28,799 Speaker 1: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at 826 00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:30,040 Speaker 1: Barry Bones Pod. 827 00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 2: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded 828 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 2: Age story of murder and the race to decode the 829 00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,600 Speaker 2: criminal mind, is available 830 00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 1: Now, and Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life solving 831 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: America's Cold Cases is also available now