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Speaker 1: Okay, we would like to welcome Thine Rosenbaum to the show.

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Speaker 1: Now CBS News Legal Aus So what is going on

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Speaker 1: with TikTok? Is it going to exist in the United States?

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Speaker 1: And is it going to be the same algorithm so jacket.

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Speaker 2: We won't know for another ninety days.

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Speaker 3: This is now the fourth attempt to stave off forcing

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Speaker 3: TikTok to end operations in the United States. Remember this

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Speaker 3: started with legislation during the Biden administration that essentially had

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Speaker 3: a you know, we're not interested in social media companies

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Speaker 3: that mine data of Americans that come from putative enemies

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Speaker 3: of ours, and that there was no sufficient insulation or

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Speaker 3: Chinese wall, so to speak, between the Chinese government and TikTok.

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Speaker 4: That's a reasonable stance in my opinion.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and the TikTok's epic we're not really owned

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Speaker 3: by Chinese and so there became a fight about that

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Speaker 3: when in fact Bike Dance did have relationships with the

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Speaker 3: Chinese government, and it's not as if they could refuse

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Speaker 3: a request.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's like the Chinese government.

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Speaker 3: Is like the Godfather, you don't the request. So if

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Speaker 3: they had asked for something, they would have said yes.

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Speaker 3: So the Biden administration said, look, you know, you either

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Speaker 3: sell yourself to an independent corporation or you you shut

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Speaker 3: down in your operations. And I said, you want to

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Speaker 3: do whatever you do in Europe, that's fine, but not here.

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Speaker 3: Donald Trump, you know, said, well wait a minute. I

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Speaker 3: think I won this election in part because there's TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Probably, you know, it rallied an audience that I didn't

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Speaker 2: really even have the last time, and.

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Speaker 3: Everyone seems to have it, and there are an enormous

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Speaker 3: amount of it's not just apparently I wouldn't know this, Jack,

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Speaker 3: but apparently it's not just images of people dancing with

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Speaker 3: their cats. There are, in fact, small businesses all over

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Speaker 3: the United States that depend on TikTok is their main

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Speaker 3: marketing technique. So there was a movement among American businesses

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Speaker 3: they said, well, wait a minute, we're a small business.

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Speaker 2: This is how we could be. We need to tuck.

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Speaker 3: So Donald Trump signed a series of executive orders, just

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Speaker 3: one the other day that extended the time period for

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Speaker 3: either shutting down or selling. And he claims that he

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Speaker 3: knows of a consortium of venture capital companies, private equity,

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Speaker 3: and tech companies, including Oracle and as you know, Larry

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Speaker 3: Ellison has just his wealth has increased enormously, and I

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Speaker 3: think he's interested in this too, So he apparently is

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Speaker 3: part of this consortium.

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Speaker 2: And the argument is.

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Speaker 3: That, well, we need we have to add a board

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Speaker 3: of director, someone on the board of director who has

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Speaker 3: some American affiliation.

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Speaker 2: That's a requirement, and.

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Speaker 3: Will extend the deadline for ninety days, hoping that the

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Speaker 3: consortium can pull together the funds and meet with the

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Speaker 3: regulatory approval that this no longer presents a national security

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Speaker 3: risks in the United States.

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Speaker 4: So, uh, do you have TikTok on your phone? No?

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Speaker 2: Me, neither, and I can't I vaguely know what it is.

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Speaker 3: But but Jack, Jack, if you'll remember you had trouble

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Speaker 3: calling me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, well I didn't personally.

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Speaker 3: But obviously right saying no, I'm blaming myself obviously since

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Speaker 3: I don't have TikTok.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know how to use a phone, apparently,

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Speaker 2: so I'm not and I'm not the right guy.

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Speaker 1: Do you not have TikTok because you're worried it's a

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Speaker 1: Chinese data harvesting tool?

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Speaker 4: No, not really, you're just not interested in social media.

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Speaker 2: I'm I'm a.

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Speaker 3: Writer by by trade, and I just don't live in

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Speaker 3: a world where everything has to be visual.

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Speaker 2: And I worked for CBS Radio.

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Speaker 3: I don't, you know, I don't I don't focus. I

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Speaker 3: don't need videos all day to keep me entertained.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I understand completely. The only reason I ever

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Speaker 1: got Instagram, which was fairly recently, is it's kind of

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Speaker 1: a marketing tool for the show. But yeah, but we've

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Speaker 1: had the stats before, and you've probably seen them of

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Speaker 1: how many hours a day young people spend on TikTok.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: They almost seem made up, but I assume they're true

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Speaker 1: because I've seen study after study say that, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's five hours for this group or seven hours for

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Speaker 1: that group.

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Speaker 4: I don't even know how that's possible.

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Speaker 3: But it's even worse than that, Jack, because if they

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Speaker 3: were just watching videos of people dancing with their cats,

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Speaker 3: that would be one thing, it would be it would

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Speaker 3: be stupid as all get out. But if that's how

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Speaker 3: you're if that's how you want your kid to spend

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Speaker 3: your day with another cat that's dancing. Fine. But what

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Speaker 3: we're really learning, which is really distressing, and it raises

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Speaker 3: First Amendment issues and other regulatory issues is that most

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Speaker 3: young people get their news from TikTok. Yeah, so that's

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Speaker 3: where it's worse than being entertained by silly videos. It's

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Speaker 3: that algorithm that can easily be manipulated. Are tailor making

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Speaker 3: a news seeds. They tailor it for certain age groups,

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Speaker 3: for certain sensibilities, perspectives, where they live, you know, whatever information.

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Speaker 3: So that's really what national security means. It doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 3: mean a bomb is going to go off.

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Speaker 2: It means that you're going to mind data that tells.

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Speaker 3: You everything you need to know about America, where we're vulnerable,

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Speaker 3: what kind of stuff we believe in, How easy it

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Speaker 3: is to manipulate us.

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Speaker 1: Just give us a video or shade news stories a

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Speaker 1: certain direction that's in your favor.

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Speaker 2: Exactly right as I'm saying about, you know, tailoring news

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Speaker 2: seeds or blocking.

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Speaker 3: News seeds, for instance, make sure that Jack Armstrong never

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Speaker 3: sees a story.

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Speaker 4: About this, right, he.

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Speaker 3: Cannot see a story about this, because he's the kind

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Speaker 3: of guy that will it'll, it'll, he'll talk about it

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Speaker 3: on a show. So you're saying, that's the kind of manipulation,

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Speaker 3: and you know, remember the social media companies are protect

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Speaker 3: acted the government doesn't can't interfere with their First Amendment rights.

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Speaker 3: So if it TikTok is an American company, if it

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Speaker 3: becomes one, the government really can't regulate it because they're saying, look,

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Speaker 3: we have First Amendment rights. We're essentially like a newspaper.

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Speaker 3: You can't tell us what's to publish.

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Speaker 4: Or what not the public.

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Speaker 1: Right, my final question, you're the CBS News legal analyst

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Speaker 1: put on a quote. So CNBC reported the other day

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Speaker 1: that the algorithm was going to that the for the

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Speaker 1: for the deal to happen, it was going to have

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Speaker 1: to be a different algorithm. Then I think it was

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Speaker 1: a Wall Street Journal reported that, though is going to

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Speaker 1: be the same algorithm. Well, that's a pretty big difference,

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Speaker 1: because if it's a different algorithm, it's you can call

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Speaker 1: it TikTok, but it's not the same thing. And from

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Speaker 1: what I understand from people who love TikTok, it's all

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Speaker 1: about that amazing algorithm that can predict, predict what you

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Speaker 1: want to be entertained by.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's that's the problem, the algorithm. Although

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Speaker 3: I read somewhere else that they're saying, well nowadays, at

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Speaker 3: the time that this legislation was created, you know, algorithm

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Speaker 3: were impenetrable and could never be done. And apparently that's

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Speaker 3: no longer true. You know, we've cracked the code and

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Speaker 3: people can actually duplicate it themselves.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't change the.

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Speaker 3: Fact that we don't obligate social media companies or internet

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Speaker 3: companies to tell balanced stories. It doesn't, you know, it

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Speaker 3: doesn't change the fact that, you know, should we be regulating,

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Speaker 3: should there be subject to the f E, FCC and

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Speaker 3: other regulations. You know, there used to be something called

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Speaker 3: probably way too young for this jack the fairness doctrine,

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Speaker 3: which ended, i think in the late eighties, where if

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Speaker 3: you had a license for broadcasting NBC, ABC, CBS, you

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Speaker 3: had to present controversial views and you had to present

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Speaker 3: other views so that it was more balanced.

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Speaker 2: They got rid of that.

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Speaker 3: So that's why when I was a kid and Walter

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Speaker 3: Cronkite was the anchor for CBS News and a third

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Speaker 3: of the country or half of the country who was

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Speaker 3: watching him, No one knew if he was a democreder,

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Speaker 3: a Republican. You had no way of knowing. That was

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Speaker 3: a different time. Now it's clear the politics is on

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Speaker 3: your sleeve, no matter who you are. We tell you upfront,

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Speaker 3: and we protect you from differing opinions.

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Speaker 1: So I got one question, is this is a Thane

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Speaker 1: Rosenbaum question. So TikTok is beneath you? Is our chat

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Speaker 1: bots beneath you to use chat, GPT and stuff like that.

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Speaker 4: Not yet, not yet good for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not saying I'm not saying that I won't.

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Speaker 3: But you know, I'm a writer and a novelist, and

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Speaker 3: that stuff scares me.

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Speaker 4: I'll get my car.

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Speaker 1: I am currently reading Ulysses and I'm forty percent of

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Speaker 1: the way through. I'm fighting my way through that book.

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Speaker 1: So to give myself some credibility in your world, the

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Speaker 1: higher thinking world.

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Speaker 2: You really impressed the hell out of me. Jack.

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Speaker 3: You're the only radio guy that I've talked to in

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Speaker 3: ye who says anything like that.

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Speaker 2: Joice is something you're reading.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there you go.

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Speaker 1: Rosenbom, CBS News legal analyist, Thanks for your time today.

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Speaker 4: Appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jack.

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Speaker 4: I liked his personality. Entertaining guy. Okay, we've got more

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Speaker 4: on the way. Stay here, Armstrong and Getty