1 00:00:02,160 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,120 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. There's been a lot of 3 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: talk about who should replace Daniel Craig now that he 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,000 Speaker 1: is retiring as James Bond, and I think I have 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: found the perfect person. He's handsome, charming, brilliant and multi lingual. 6 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: His name is Nicholas ni ArkOS, and if only he 7 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: could put down his computer long enough to play the part. 8 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: Ni ArkOS is a journalist. His choice of unglamorous and 9 00:00:33,720 --> 00:00:37,199 Speaker 1: at times dangerous profession is all the more surprising when 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,800 Speaker 1: you learn about his background. His grandfather, Stavros Niarchos, founded 11 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: the international shipping company ni ArkOS Limited. I first came 12 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: across ni ArkOS in The New Yorker magazine. His recent 13 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: piece Buried Dreams covers the exploitation of workers in the 14 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: cobalt mines in Central Africa. In his reporting, ni ArkOS 15 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: exposed the danger of us and exploitative conditions for the 16 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,080 Speaker 1: workers in Congolese cobalt minds, many of whom are children, 17 00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: as well as those that's down to profit handsomely off 18 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: the minds. In addition to being a reporter at large 19 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: at the New Yorker, New York coss work has appeared 20 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 1: in Time, the New York Times, and the Nation. I 21 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:21,640 Speaker 1: think that all the places that I try and work 22 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: for require a sort of serious journalistic engagement. And that's 23 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: what I really seek for. When I look for a 24 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,759 Speaker 1: publication to write for The New Yorker, I find the 25 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: fact checking process. I was a fact checker for for 26 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: for many years. I think that's a very engaging thing 27 00:01:37,880 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: to deal with. I like working directly with the fact checkers. 28 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:43,400 Speaker 1: I liked being a fact checker, learning a great deal 29 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,800 Speaker 1: about a subject, you know, for a couple of weeks, 30 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: and then and then sort of moving on. And actually 31 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: I found now as a reporter actually enhances my reporting. 32 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: It leads me down new alleys when I'm trying to 33 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: sort of verify things, to the kind of hundreds of 34 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: descience kind of thing. When you when you factor you 35 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: did it for how long? I did for five years? Actually, 36 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: well almost four years and eleven months. Did they confine 37 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 1: you to fact checking in a certain realm or did 38 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: you fact check a lot of different things? I fact 39 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: checked a lot of different things because I speak French 40 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: and Italian obviously, when there were stories which required those languages. 41 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 1: I would I would be sort of fact you were 42 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: the go to fact checker sometimes, Yeah, when you when 43 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: you would do the fact checking or I mean were 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: there once you enjoyed more like ones that were like 45 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: deep and intense and scientific or culture whatever, and did 46 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:34,240 Speaker 1: you did you didn't love, You didn't love doing the 47 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: fact checking of the profile of some actress, or you 48 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,560 Speaker 1: enjoyed all of it. I enjoyed all of it, you know. Listen. 49 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: I worked on a piece on TMZ by Nick Schmiddle, 50 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: which was a kind of investigative piece, and that was 51 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: a kind of crazy experience that was kind of so well, 52 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, sort of more you know, kind of 53 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: input and sort of back and forth and lawyers and whatever. 54 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: Then most other pieces, you know, sometimes it would do 55 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: pieces on Iraq and Afghanistan and so on, and they 56 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: were quite less less lay in a stated how Darfy 57 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: or Harvey love them exactly exactly blash, But no, I 58 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: loved working with I mean the writers. They're a great 59 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: Patrick Keith, Sarah Stillman, Rachel I mean this this kind 60 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,960 Speaker 1: of made Rebecca Mede. Rebecca was actually a sort of 61 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: wonderful early person I've fact checked quite quite early on 62 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: in my career there and then kind of ended up 63 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 1: sort of doing quite a lot with her, which was 64 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 1: quite fun. And we did a piece i remember on 65 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: adult and Cabano, and we just had like a lot 66 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: of back and forth with Dultri caban as people, and 67 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 1: it was just it was sort of hilarious because sometimes 68 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: you know, those sort of fashion stories and so on. 69 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:40,280 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're talking with people in government and 70 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: so on, they kind of they have this attitude that, oh, well, 71 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:44,760 Speaker 1: it's a story, it's going to go away, Whereas you know, 72 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 1: if it's a big fashion house and you know, this 73 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: is one of the few times that it appears in 74 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: The New Yorker, you know this year or in the 75 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: you know, in five years or whatever, they realized that 76 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 1: that's going to stick with the marketing for them. Yeah, 77 00:03:57,040 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: exactly a degree. Um well, I mean, I'm obviously in 78 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: every reader of The New Yorker. The thing I tend 79 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 1: to see when I when I was thinking about your 80 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: article and budgets and costs and things like that, is that, 81 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: you know, the magazine has obviously a menu in different articles. 82 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: There might be a profile, there might be you know, 83 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 1: there's obviously the shouts and murmurs and talk of the 84 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: town and so. But of the body of the pieces 85 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 1: that are not criticism or art or what have you, 86 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: there seems to be a limit, I would imagine of 87 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: the number of pieces that are this expansive, because it 88 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: must be expensive. Correct. You know, I started this piece 89 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: reporting it for as a book, and the first it 90 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: started as a as a sort of book reporting and 91 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 1: then and then kind of developed into New Yorker reporting. 92 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:36,839 Speaker 1: So actually I funded some of it from my own money, 93 00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: and then I used some of the New Yorker what 94 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:41,919 Speaker 1: the New Yorker paid me to to sort of continue 95 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 1: the reporting. But actually, you know, this was a sort 96 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: of budget less piece at the beginning. You first became 97 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:49,679 Speaker 1: aware of this when and how I first became aware 98 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: of this issue around cobalt mining because of somebody called 99 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:57,920 Speaker 1: Dan Gutler. He is a mining billionaire who has sort 100 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: of made his wealth in the DRC, and he actually 101 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 1: made a lot of money. Buy he's from Israel. Originally 102 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: he came to DRC. It's a crazy story. Came when 103 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: he was about twenty three, and by the time he 104 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:12,720 Speaker 1: was twenty six, he was in charge of the congo's 105 00:05:13,080 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: entire diamond export and then various sort of human rights 106 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: groups groups are like, wait, well, what's happening here. He 107 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: was very close to the ruling family and so he 108 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 1: was kind of booted off that and Congo said, look, listen, 109 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: look we've dealt with this problem. And suddenly it turned 110 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: out that he had a bunch of copper and cobalt 111 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: mines down in the south, which he seemed to be basically, 112 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: and this is very well documented by the Carter Center 113 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,600 Speaker 1: and sort of human rights watching various other institutions, basically 114 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:40,359 Speaker 1: he was selling them on for the ruling family to 115 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: finance their elections. So he had basically flipped the minds 116 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: and he became aware of him. How I became aware 117 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: of him. I have a very good friend of mine 118 00:05:47,640 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: who works in mining, and I was sort of casting 119 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: around for stories related to Africa, related to corruption and 120 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,840 Speaker 1: so on, and he said, well, listen, I mean look, 121 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: no Risco exactly. And also actually Patrick Keith, who has 122 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: been a great sort of inspiration to me and I 123 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: worked with actually at the New Yorker, and you had 124 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: Alex Gibney on the show and he you know, they 125 00:06:10,560 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: collaborated on the opioid story acted to Patrick on the 126 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: street the other day with his family down in the village, 127 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,279 Speaker 1: and I just said to myself, my god, I thought 128 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: they documented withal. So he'd done a piece on Bennie 129 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: stein Metz, who was a Israeli mining billionaire. I think 130 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: he's he's currently been arrested or he's on trial in Switzerland, 131 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: and he had basically taken control of an iron are 132 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: mine called Simon Do, which is in Guinea. And so 133 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: Patrick had done that story, and that was a kind 134 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: of great inspiration. And then I sort of went to Patrick, 135 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: and Patrick said, list and you should also follow the story. 136 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 1: It's a great idea. I've always wanted to do Gartler. 137 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 1: And then I arrived in Congo and I realized that 138 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: the Gartler story was very interesting, but it wasn't the 139 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: whole story. And actually what became more interested interesting to 140 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: me is the lives of these people. Just the hellish 141 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: existence of a cobalt minor, an artisanal cobalt minor have 142 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: to be preciser in the southern DRC. Now I read 143 00:07:08,320 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: the article and you become suspicious. So you become enlightened, 144 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: if you will, to the idea that huge swaths of 145 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: this continent are being exploited for these kinds of minerals, 146 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: and and and if I may say so, you'll let 147 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: you speak to this, not just the greatest hits like 148 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: petroleum based things, but these cobalts for lithium for modern technology, chips, 149 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: photovoltaic whatever they may be used for batteries, mostly correct 150 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: the lithium battery. It was it safe to say, you 151 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: talk about Guinea, you talk about d r C. Is 152 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: this happening all over Africa where these minerals exist, I mean, American, Israeli. 153 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter pirates or when they're trying to grab 154 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: as much of it as they can. Well, it depends where. 155 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: Obviously some places are better regulated than others. Who's doing 156 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: a good job of regulating if you can say, I think, 157 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: for example, Zambia has had a better track record, although 158 00:07:55,040 --> 00:07:57,679 Speaker 1: now the sort of influx of Chinese wealth into Zambia 159 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: has sort of up ended some of that. And what 160 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: if he was seeking their copper as well. So it's 161 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: actually on the border with d r C. When I 162 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 1: was reporting some of this stuff, I actually flew to 163 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: Zambia to meet sort of renegade Congolese politician before he 164 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: was traveling back into the DRC. So yeah, no, it's 165 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 1: known as the Copper Belt, and it's it's a sort 166 00:08:14,920 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: of large the scene between the two countries exactly exactly. 167 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: And the other big one is coldtan actually, and that's 168 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: sort of been the focus of a lot of human 169 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: rights work because it is largely mined by sort of 170 00:08:27,560 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: army types and sort of war lords in the northeast 171 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: of the DRC. And coltan is used in capacitors, which 172 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: are sort of key for computers and batteries. That's also 173 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: been a big issue and people confuse that with cobalt, 174 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 1: and actually what's happening there is is slightly different from cobalt, 175 00:08:43,760 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: which is a kind of more of a mechanized, sort 176 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 1: of legitimized a type of trade. Well, the thing that 177 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:52,840 Speaker 1: also struck me in terms of any story like this 178 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: with there's danger described to me what you had to 179 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: do in advanced security wise, you don't just land at 180 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: the airport and say in an uber and say take 181 00:09:01,040 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: me to you know, Cobal town. There must have been 182 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: a lot of preparatory steps you took and security steps took. 183 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: Give I'm assuming, and then talk about when you first 184 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: got there for the first time. What went on? Okay, 185 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 1: so yeah, the security steps. I mean, I've traveled to 186 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: quite a lot at this point of countries which sort 187 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 1: of have different complicated security profiles, At places like Yamen, 188 00:09:20,440 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: Western Sahara, in fact, this southern part of the d 189 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: r C. You know, there is the threat always of 190 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 1: randomized violence, but I, you know, had looked into it. 191 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: I've spoken to a couple of people who had been there. 192 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: I've spoken to a couple of journalists, and I don't 193 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: think there was a kind of threatening or kind of 194 00:09:39,520 --> 00:09:44,200 Speaker 1: looming threat. I wasn't particularly afraid that. You know, sometimes 195 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 1: traveling on the road at night, you'd be stopped at 196 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: roadblocks and there would be sort of policemen with guns 197 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: and they'll be drunk, and you know, then you get 198 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: a little bit nervous, and then we were sort of 199 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 1: held up in broad daylight. So I traveled with the 200 00:09:57,040 --> 00:09:59,760 Speaker 1: local journalist called Jeff Kazadi, who's a who's a wonderful 201 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 1: one a guy, and he's he's he was a great resource. 202 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 1: He worked as a translator. He was incredibly sort of 203 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:08,120 Speaker 1: resourceful as well on on the ground, and he sort 204 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: of knew quite a few of the operators, and he 205 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 1: had worked with I believe CNN before and some other 206 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: journalists who had been down to do stories like this 207 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 1: or to do other types of stories in Southern DRC. 208 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: He works for a mining trade publication, so you know, 209 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: oftentimes he wanted to sort of look further into stories, 210 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: but because he works for an industry publication, it wasn't 211 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: the type of journalism that they were interested in. So 212 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,840 Speaker 1: I contacted Jeff. I also contacted another journalist, ben Nyemba, 213 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,079 Speaker 1: who who's based out of there, and he was interested 214 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:41,240 Speaker 1: in this. So the first time I went, I went 215 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: with Jeff and Ben. We kind of thought about the 216 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: security risks and we discussed the different types of issues 217 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: along the road. Sometimes there were bandits and so on, 218 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: but usually if you're traveling in the daytime and you're 219 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:54,600 Speaker 1: fairly safe along that road. So when I first arrived 220 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: in the South, I've been in Conshassa for a bit 221 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: and in many ways the South is much less hectic 222 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,920 Speaker 1: lincl Chassa and I arrived on a local flight so 223 00:11:03,960 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: we didn't have to deal with customs. I stayed in 224 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: a sort of very downbeat hotel, which was an interesting 225 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: experience to say the least, there were a lot of 226 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:13,520 Speaker 1: women coming in at night and leaving in the morning, 227 00:11:14,320 --> 00:11:20,280 Speaker 1: but afterwards everywhere, which is everywhere exactly. And then I 228 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: stayed the next two or three times I was there 229 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: in more kind of like hotels that sort of mining 230 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: execs had made their home. It was, you know, kind 231 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: of immediately there with people at the bar kind of 232 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: talking about their sort of the you know, the greatest 233 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: hits of you know, copper mines and cobalt mines, some 234 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: of the work that some of the useful work done there. Yeah, 235 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 1: and those are sort of like off the record chats usually, 236 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: but it helps you get get such a good sort 237 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: of context around this up. You know what else was 238 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: very useful useful is that I visited a mining conference 239 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: there as well and sort of met a lot of 240 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: people in the field. It was hosted by a South 241 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: African firm, but it was kind of visited by all 242 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 1: the sort of local potents and so on. It was 243 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:09,719 Speaker 1: a sort of eye opening experience because people are very 244 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: aware of the problem of artisanal mining. And you have 245 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 1: to make the distinction between artisanal mining and industrial mining. 246 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: So artisanal mining is something somewhere between ten and thirty 247 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 1: percent of Congo's production every year. It really fluctuates depending 248 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: on you know, supply demands so on. And the rest 249 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: is industrial, which has done much in the way of 250 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: large mining firms anywhere else in the world. And do 251 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 1: the industrials want to put the artisanals out of work? 252 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: The industrials would probably prefer that the artisanals were not 253 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: there because there are serious human rights issues with some 254 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: of the artisanal minds, which with many of the artismal minds, 255 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:49,240 Speaker 1: I would say some are led by cooperatives, and those 256 00:12:49,280 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 1: co operatives are sort of better about safety than other 257 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 1: sort of non coatrial co operative managed artisanal minds. However, 258 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: the big problem is that there's just been a huge 259 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: flux of people into that region. It's a gold rush. 260 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 1: It's a huge gold rush, and you really feel like 261 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,400 Speaker 1: just people are arriving every day, that kind of thing. 262 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: There's a train that comes down from a place called 263 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 1: Mbuji Mai, which is in the middle of Congo, and 264 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: that is a place in which there used to be 265 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: a huge amount of diamond mining and that's been sort 266 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: of woefully mismanaged and the industry has kind of fallen 267 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 1: into pieces. So a lot of people who had some 268 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: mining experience and now sort of getting on that train 269 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: which goes through the sort of jungles and wilds of 270 00:13:29,520 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: Central Congo and comes to Lumumbashi and sort of people 271 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:35,440 Speaker 1: are just sort of hanging off the side of that 272 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: train and it comes, you know, every two months or 273 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: something like that. Nobody really the the schedule basically works 274 00:13:41,440 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: on you know, whenever it's completely full, whenever they can 275 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: sort of get the engine running. And so with that, 276 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: you know, people come. And then the industrial mines are 277 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,560 Speaker 1: sort of run by very few people, so they don't 278 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: have the capacity to observe resolve that labor force exactly. 279 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: They don't they can't hire. So yeah, I think they 280 00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:02,800 Speaker 1: arrived to participate in artisanal mining. Exactly. You arrived because 281 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:04,320 Speaker 1: you think you're going to get rich and there's just 282 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:06,840 Speaker 1: like a lot of stories about it and so on, 283 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:09,400 Speaker 1: and you arrive and there's nothing to do apart from 284 00:14:09,520 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: artisanal mining basically, and people really exploit that they get 285 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 1: paid nothing. I mean, it's it's some people say that 286 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 1: there have been people who made lots and lots of money, 287 00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,640 Speaker 1: but I actually found that quite difficult to believe. After 288 00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: spending two months there, I just so you went the 289 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: one on the one trip for two months. So I 290 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: went on one trip for a month, then I went 291 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: on another trip for ten days, and then I was 292 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: there for about almost a month the next time, so 293 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 1: two months. So when you arrive and you are in 294 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: the more decent hotel with people who seem to be 295 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: related to the whole enterprise, and you can church out 296 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: with him. Is the idea that when you arrive, you 297 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: don't go right into the belly of the beast and 298 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,680 Speaker 1: go to where the artisanal mining is at full at 299 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,040 Speaker 1: full throttle. You kind of work your way towards that is, 300 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: did you take a few days before you get into 301 00:14:57,000 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: the into the pits so to speak? Depends actually on 302 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 1: the different trips. On my second trip, I went straight 303 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 1: to the artisman mining because I spent a lot of time, 304 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: you know, talking with Seth Effricans about, you know, the 305 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: benefits of copper mining for the area. So you know, 306 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: I had all that material and I wanted to really 307 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: focus on the the artisanal miners, who were people that 308 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:18,880 Speaker 1: sounded like they had not the right idea, but maybe 309 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,080 Speaker 1: the better ideas about how this should be handled, what 310 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:23,600 Speaker 1: should happen there for the greater good of everybody. So 311 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 1: there's a Catholic charity called Good Shepherd, called Ways, and 312 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: they've been incredibly sort of outspoken and sort of quite 313 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: sort of research focused as well around some of these issues. 314 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: They've put forward this plan which says, listen, you need 315 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: to develop other types of industry because you have to 316 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: understand this as like a as a cycle of which 317 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: corruption is only a part. There's also just the basic 318 00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:52,160 Speaker 1: fact of poverty and and need. So they have suggested 319 00:15:52,280 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: that agriculture would be a way of engaging the local population. 320 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 1: In fact, it's a very fertile region as well, and 321 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: something like ninety cent of Congo's food is imported, so 322 00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 1: there's this kind of from other areas, from from Zambia, 323 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: from from other areas of the region. So there's this 324 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:11,440 Speaker 1: kind and and import taxes are huge, and people are 325 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: making money every step of the way, and so on 326 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: and so forth, often not Congolese. So they say, listen, 327 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: why don't the Congolese grow their own food here? Why 328 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: don't people work on farms? And so I think that 329 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: that's a you know, there are large businesses that obviously 330 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: invested in this. I think that's actually something which would 331 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: be positive for them to do. So. There are also 332 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: some other groups like the Fair Cobalt Alliance, and then 333 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: there's another Chinese group. The u N doesn't have a 334 00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: permanent presence, I don't think in con ways. Actually, a 335 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 1: lot of what they do in Congo is to do 336 00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:46,280 Speaker 1: with rebels in the north, and then they assisted with 337 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: war crimes tribunals in a city which was not too 338 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: far away. So they do mainly kind of like armed 339 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: conflict type stuff there. I didn't see any sort of 340 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: UN involvement, but I could you know, they could that 341 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:01,440 Speaker 1: they could, Yeah, they could. They could be a UN 342 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: office that focuses on this, but it doesn't seem to 343 00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: be a main priority because they're focused on, you know something, 344 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: what what year did you go there? I went and 345 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: right before the right before? How convenient for you? Wonderful? 346 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: And what is the national government? To the extent you 347 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: could you could ascertain when you're there, what's their position 348 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: of what's going on there? So the national government makes 349 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 1: kind of these overtures over and over again, saying we 350 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,479 Speaker 1: can't have child labor whatever, and then the local government 351 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: will say the same thing, and they're like, we're cleaning 352 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,280 Speaker 1: up the minds and then they used you know, these 353 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: kind of mind clean up activities in order to basically 354 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: sees more parts of the minds for themselves and you know, 355 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: kind of co opt local co operatives and so on. 356 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: And I document that in the piece. And at the 357 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: moment there's a bit of a power struggle happening down 358 00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: in that region, and it's very unclear to me what's 359 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,239 Speaker 1: actually happening in terms of like who's getting pieces of 360 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 1: the pie, But the fact is that it still continues. Actually, 361 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: I was speaking to a friend of mine who's a photographer, 362 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 1: Hugh can Sell a Cunningham who's done great, great work 363 00:18:01,040 --> 00:18:05,160 Speaker 1: and in the DRC. He was there last weekend and 364 00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: he saw basically exactly the same condition. So it's not improving. 365 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: But I'm assuming for people who don't understand the way 366 00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:15,119 Speaker 1: these things work, it's that you have the corporate mining, 367 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: you have the industrial mining, which of course the government's 368 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: going to sanction that because they're gonna make a lot 369 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: of money. I'm assuming, just like the drug trade and 370 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 1: other parts of the world and South America for example, 371 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: they don't want it to go away. They can't make 372 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: a go away Beau. There'll be just so much illegal 373 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 1: activity and violence and bloodshed. Do they sit there and 374 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 1: say and they just write it off and say, well, 375 00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:37,760 Speaker 1: we have to tolerate a certain amount of artisanal mining 376 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,719 Speaker 1: just to keep these people quiet and peaceful. Yeah, I mean, 377 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: I think I can make it go away. Yeah, I think. 378 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll say that, and sometimes they say, well, artismal 379 00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,520 Speaker 1: mining can't exist. And it was funny I interviewed the 380 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 1: governor at the time, and he basically said the same. 381 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: He said both of those things in the same interview. 382 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 1: So I don't think they really understood how to deal 383 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: with this problem. And and it is, it's a very 384 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 1: very complex issue. And I wouldn't say that I have 385 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,520 Speaker 1: I have the answers, but I just don't think it's 386 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: being engaged with in a particularly robust manner. You also 387 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: have to think about that in terms of, you know, 388 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: the industrial minds which were brought many of them were 389 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: brought through this guy Gutler who's now in the U S. Actions. 390 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 1: There's actually Trump d sanctioned him for a bit who 391 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:22,679 Speaker 1: knows why, and then and then he got re sanctioned. 392 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:26,199 Speaker 1: And basically you have a system that relies on this 393 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: corruption and those funds are not going back to the people, 394 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: and then you have a situation in which, you know, 395 00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 1: the minds are sold to big Western companies, and big 396 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:38,359 Speaker 1: Western companies, you know, maybe don't participate directly in that, 397 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: but they work with people who are certainly questionable. Actually 398 00:19:42,640 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 1: it's not and forgive me a big Western companies has 399 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: not entirely correct a lot of Chinese companies. Actually, what 400 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: are the Chinese doing there? And how long have them in? Obviously, well, 401 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 1: when I think of China, I think of a place 402 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: that's obviously a vast a region of land and very 403 00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 1: geologically and topographically and media at atically. What have you here? 404 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a China sit enormous. They don't have 405 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,679 Speaker 1: those resources in their own territory. So something like seventy 406 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: of the world's cobalt is actually in DRC. It's like 407 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: three point four million tons, which a huge, huge amount 408 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,600 Speaker 1: of is that, And you know there are nickel mines 409 00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 1: in Indonesia which also produced a cobalt as a byproduct. 410 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: And it's interesting if you look, one of China's biggest 411 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: battery manufacturers just bought one of the biggest nickel mines 412 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: in Indonesia. So they're really kind of making this resource 413 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: grab and they've understood how I think Ivan Glazenberg, who's 414 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: the head of Glencore, one of the big was the 415 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: head of Glencore, said this summer China Inc. Has realized 416 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: how important cobalt is and and they're they're kind of 417 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: starting to buy everything up. And where do Western manufacturers, 418 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: including the U S. Where do they get their cobalt from? 419 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: From the Chinese? From the Chinese, they're not buying their own, No, 420 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: they're not. They're not trying to develop that resource for themselves. Yeah, 421 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,479 Speaker 1: BMW is is I think one of the few that 422 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,840 Speaker 1: doesn't buy from the Chinese. They buy most of their 423 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,800 Speaker 1: cobalt from a cobalt only mine in Morocco, but that's 424 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:06,680 Speaker 1: where too small to supply the entire world. Journalist Nicolas 425 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 1: ni Arcos. If you like hearing about the inner workings 426 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: of some of the greatest journalistic outlets of our time, 427 00:21:14,320 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: check out my interview with New Yorker editor David Remnick. 428 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: The magazine is not the magazine if it doesn't have 429 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,680 Speaker 1: a sense of humor. You're not in business to depress 430 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: the hell out of the reader unremittingly. It's like a 431 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: band having a set list. If you do everything, it's 432 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: all sixteenth notes from mentioning. So you got a divido 433 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: or will you sound like the Ramones? Although I've heard 434 00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: of worse things. So you want some variation in tone, invoice, 435 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: and that's your responsibility, you feel, I feel all of 436 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 1: it's my responsibility. Here more of my conversation with David 437 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: Remnick in our archives that Here's the Thing dot org 438 00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: after the break, Nicholas ni Archos and I talked about 439 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: his background and the big story he nearly broke in 440 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 1: high school. I'm Alec Baldwin and you were listening to 441 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Nicholas ni Arcos, who could be living 442 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: a life of privilege instead can be found in the 443 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:26,560 Speaker 1: Democratic Republic of the Congo reporting on human rights violations. 444 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: Ni Arcos grew up in London and came to the 445 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: United States to attend Yale. His family helped him develop 446 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: his interest in journalism. I grew up in the UK, London. 447 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: I was born in hand but we're born here. Your 448 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,399 Speaker 1: father's Greek Greek. You're growing up in this famous family 449 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: and your father is obviously the son of the guy 450 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:49,920 Speaker 1: that was the big dog there in the shipping business, 451 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 1: Stavros Niarchos. But what was it like in your home 452 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,719 Speaker 1: and your family was where you ended up going into charism? 453 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,200 Speaker 1: That was likely where everybody very interested in politic exce 454 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: and current affairs. And was your dad like rabid about that? Yeah, 455 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: my dad's sort of very interesting in current affairs. And 456 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, my mom's family as well. My grandfather is 457 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,719 Speaker 1: a writer, and my great grandparents many of them were 458 00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:16,280 Speaker 1: writers and travelers and many such things. And then actually 459 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 1: in high school, I did this anti school newspaper and 460 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 1: we actually ended up very very close to blowing the 461 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,600 Speaker 1: lid on this kind of strange story where Chinese officials 462 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: were sort of paying this intermediary character to get their 463 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 1: kids into the school that I went to, which is 464 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,679 Speaker 1: called Harrow. It's a kind of very stiff boarding school. 465 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:39,679 Speaker 1: So we ended up almost writing the story and the 466 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,600 Speaker 1: newspaper was shut down two years later the financial time. 467 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: Suddenly the guy has revealed to be somehow connected with 468 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:49,840 Speaker 1: m I six and like one of the governors in 469 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,159 Speaker 1: China basically was sort of taken down by it. And 470 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 1: this was kind of she jimping, kind of flexing his 471 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,359 Speaker 1: muscles for the first time we had been so close 472 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: to doing that worry. You know, the only reason that 473 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 1: we didn't didn't run it was because the school had 474 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: basically said, like, you're not publishing this. So yeah, I 475 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:08,440 Speaker 1: think that was the first time I really like saw 476 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,640 Speaker 1: the power of journalism. And it was funny because they 477 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,240 Speaker 1: banned that it was hard copying, and people sort of 478 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: hid it behind their notice boards in their dorm rooms 479 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: and then kind of passed it around, and you know, 480 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: by three days after publication, even though the school had 481 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: destroyed most of the copies, you know, everybody had read 482 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,440 Speaker 1: it and it was this kind of great Athama at 483 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 1: the bar of journal star, a noble star. And your 484 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: mother is Irish English, she really I went to Dublin 485 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,959 Speaker 1: once with my ex wife and my daughter and we 486 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: were there it was Christmas Eve and St. Stephen's Day 487 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: and we were staying at the Shelburne in because it 488 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 1: is the famous hotel. And they said to me, oh, 489 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: you've made a mistake now coming this week because everything's closed. 490 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: They said, this week everything's closed. Christmas Eve and Send 491 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: Stephen's Day, everything's closed, even the Guinness is closed. They said. 492 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,439 Speaker 1: They were like, that's rare. I mean even the Guinness 493 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 1: factories closed, and we're like, well, my ship, what are 494 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: we going to do when we're here? So but you 495 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: you know, obviously when I saw your byline, then I 496 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: saw your name. You don't have to be my age 497 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: to know, you know, there are two great shipping families, 498 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: and yours just as recognizable to my generation as the 499 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: other one. But you lived in London and you first 500 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: came when you were born here. I grew up in London. 501 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 1: And when did you come back here to live? How 502 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: old were I came back here for college, go to school, 503 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: to go to school, and you decided to say, I 504 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:31,679 Speaker 1: decided to stay. Why do you want to live here 505 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: and not from London? And the opposite, I want to 506 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:34,960 Speaker 1: live in London and leave New York as soon as 507 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,480 Speaker 1: I love London, I love New Yordon. You do, listen, 508 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 1: I feel like London. There's a you know, there's this 509 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: kind of idealized London of my sort of teenage years, 510 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 1: which had like a lot of kind of relaxed hangout places, 511 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: which is sort of shut down and it's easier for 512 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:52,399 Speaker 1: you here. Well, no, it's just it's sort of become 513 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: it's become this kind of like very I don't know, 514 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: this kind of fake version of itself in a way, 515 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,120 Speaker 1: and I feel like it's like a yeah, and it's 516 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: a lot of you know, like heritaging and like I 517 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: love these I want to live in a castle. I 518 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: watched The Crown and like, oh God, that would work 519 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 1: for me. I could live there. But when you finished 520 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: school you decided to stay here. And what were the 521 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: first job as you got in journalism? Um, so I 522 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 1: worked at the Nation. Described that experience. It was a 523 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,679 Speaker 1: factory as an old friend of mine Katrina Katrina as well, 524 00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:26,200 Speaker 1: when when you talk about budgets, so the so the 525 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 1: Nation comes out, we were saying, that looks like a 526 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:31,879 Speaker 1: college newspaper. Yeah, and that very very less expensive paper. 527 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: And so for the obviously they have their budgetary considerations, 528 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,679 Speaker 1: but they're irreplaceable in terms of the reporting. Did you 529 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:39,920 Speaker 1: enjoy that experience. It was a great experience. I worked 530 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 1: directly with Katrina as her fact checker and with her 531 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 1: late husband, Stephen Kern. And it was the time of 532 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: the Syrian chemical weapons and Obama's redline and so on, 533 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: and they were you know, I was called up on 534 00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: a Sunday evening. I think this is one of my 535 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,720 Speaker 1: first weeks there is caught up on a Sunday evening 536 00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,439 Speaker 1: and they were like, okay, you've got to be in 537 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,879 Speaker 1: touch with the pc W, you know, four o'clock tomorrow 538 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 1: morning kind of thing. It was a fantastic experience. And 539 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: also the nation treats its interns very well, which was 540 00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,560 Speaker 1: something I hadn't necessarily always seen in the UK. And 541 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: you know, you were paid minimum wage. And there was 542 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: a kind of spirit of like community and activism there 543 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,159 Speaker 1: which was which was really nice. And actually, by the 544 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: end of my time there, I had developed this story 545 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 1: based on a lead that I had gotten at journalism 546 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: school about this lawyer who had been wiretapped called Robert 547 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: Gottlieb and he was representing a guy called Addis mc 548 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 1: dungeon in and their conversations had been wiretapped by the FBI, 549 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,719 Speaker 1: and that story hadn't been reported. So I sort of 550 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: reported that that out a little bit and then sort 551 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: of came to them and said list and I've been 552 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 1: working on this in my spare time, and they said 553 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: it sort of took a chance and published. Me. Looking 554 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: back on it, I mean, that's that's quite a sort 555 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: of bulls sort of risk taking. But I really appreciate 556 00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: that because that was my first sort of big investigative 557 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: type magazine story. When you worked for the Guardian, did 558 00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: you go back to the UK? No, So I've written 559 00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: for The Guardian sort of independently as a free lancer, 560 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: and then I worked at the Guardian as a researcher, 561 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,040 Speaker 1: Like right when I graduated college. What period of time 562 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: did you work with the Huffington Post. So I started 563 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: writing with the Afternoon Post in college and then I 564 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: kind of wrote for them for a year two ofterwards, 565 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,720 Speaker 1: you know, for me finding sources, you know, sometimes I 566 00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: read The Times and I think, well, there's the Times again. 567 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 1: And then sometimes they read the Times and I said, 568 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:25,719 Speaker 1: this is not the Times anymore, you know. I mean 569 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,719 Speaker 1: I get really really worried about their priorities, you know. 570 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: But The New Yorker has been for me, you know, 571 00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 1: over the ark of many years, the most reliable in 572 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 1: terms of its integrity and what they cover in stories 573 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,480 Speaker 1: they tell. And you had sent me the article from 574 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: John the Anderson, which I think which when I as 575 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 1: I was reading, I think I read this article when 576 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: when it first came out. Now, that article about South 577 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,480 Speaker 1: America and I'd read other articles and books about the 578 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: work of the Nie and the uncontacted Indians and so forth. 579 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: You know, I would imagine for you that that and 580 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 1: writers like Anderson who write these broad and very complex pieces, 581 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: there's no shortage of stories for you to cover. I 582 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,960 Speaker 1: mean you must be constantly having to make tough decisions 583 00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: as to which ones you because when they come to you, 584 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: they don't sign, they ask you if you want to 585 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: do it? Correct, No, no, no, I was as a 586 00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 1: freelance ipe pitch to place. Actually you pitched, okay, so 587 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: you you pitched to Remnick and his staff that you 588 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 1: want to do the piece based on your beginnings of 589 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: your book. But I would imagine again with the corner 590 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:25,680 Speaker 1: copia of such stories that are out there, you must 591 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: be constantly wondering which one you want to do. Are 592 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,239 Speaker 1: there are the many ideas you have for this kind 593 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: of thing? Absolutely, yeah, there there there are many ideas. 594 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,120 Speaker 1: Part of it is also sort of editorial interest. I 595 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,760 Speaker 1: was reading John Didion on Al Salvador last night, and 596 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:40,719 Speaker 1: she was talking about when She Went, which I think 597 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 1: is two, and she talked about how it was a 598 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 1: period in which it was like phil and Hold and 599 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: so you know you'd value your story and then it 600 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,960 Speaker 1: would be held by editors because you know, there wasn't 601 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: a huge amount of interest in Al Salvador. I've actually 602 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: seen that quite a lot with Yamen funny enough, which 603 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: is a conflict that's been going on since you know, 604 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: that's really something that's very, very difficult to get onto 605 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 1: people's radar. So it's actually also about getting those stories 606 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: onto editors radar. And there's a story that I want 607 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: to do about these complicated co operations between US forces 608 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: in Africa and local forces that have led to a 609 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: lot of civilian casualties and don't seem to be being 610 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,080 Speaker 1: authorized on the highest level. But that's firstly a hard 611 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: story to like get rolling and to get sourced up. 612 00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: So I'm trying to sort of bind more sources on that. 613 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: So if there any listeners, please get in touch. So 614 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: everywhere you go around the world, Africa, South America, whatever, 615 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: you see this exploitation for resources and from minerals, and 616 00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 1: I'm just wondering if we'll ever see the day when 617 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: this country decides to come out on the right side 618 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,760 Speaker 1: of that and try to prevent some of it. Like 619 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: we know what happened in in Equator. Just it's tragic. 620 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: It's tragic. Yeah, I mean, I think that there's there's 621 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:53,640 Speaker 1: so much emphasis on sort of labor rights here. And 622 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,400 Speaker 1: I listened to your show with Lumina Gonzalez and and 623 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,760 Speaker 1: she know, she was talking about how, you know, people 624 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: getting the wave raging California and farms and things like that. 625 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,120 Speaker 1: And I think that there is a lot of good 626 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,160 Speaker 1: movement on that in the States. But somehow I feel 627 00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: like we've just sort of exported all these issues and 628 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: and it's become this is a set of rules for us, 629 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: or a set of rules, Yeah, exactly, and that's kind 630 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 1: of become the sort of wages of globalization. Journalist Nicolas 631 00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: ni Arcos. If you're enjoying this conversation, be sure to 632 00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: subscribe to Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app, 633 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,520 Speaker 1: Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. When we come back, 634 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: Nicholas ni Arcos talks about some of the more challenging 635 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:55,720 Speaker 1: aspects of his reporting in The Congo by Malic Baldwin, 636 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: and this is Here's the Thing Nicolas ni Arcos New 637 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,600 Speaker 1: Yorker article or Buried Dreams exposed the way Cargolese cobalt 638 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: miners are exploited. In his reporting for the piece, he 639 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: witnessed many gut wrenching scenes. Yeah, I think the toughest 640 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: things that I saw were around the kids. You know 641 00:32:14,400 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: that you see a lot of kids with the former teas, 642 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: firstly because of the radioactive nature of the cobalt dust 643 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: heavy metals poisoning. In fact, actually this is something that 644 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 1: one of the fact checkers on the piece, Katie nud 645 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: Jim Badden, alerted me to the paternal exposure to some 646 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,920 Speaker 1: of these materials is actually associated very heavily with birthday effects. 647 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 1: So that was very sad talking to parents, to wives 648 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: of people who had been killed in these landslides at mines. 649 00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 1: And then obviously, you know, going to a school for 650 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: sort of kids who had been not actually run by 651 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,240 Speaker 1: good shepherd, so kids who had been artisanal miners. And 652 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: then just like chatting with this kid Zicki, who's in 653 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: the piece as well. I mean he was working in 654 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:00,719 Speaker 1: mind since he was three basically, and the sort of 655 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: pain and suffering, and then there was this moment where 656 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: I kind of you know, showed him my phone. I said, listen, 657 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: like the new iPhone is going for a thousand, two 658 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,320 Speaker 1: hundred dollars and everybody there knows that it's going into batteries. 659 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: Something like fifty of the cobalt mine there just goes 660 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,480 Speaker 1: into letting my own batteries. And I said to him, listen, like, 661 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 1: how do you feel about this? And he was just like, 662 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 1: I feel terrible. And I think he just had this 663 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: sort of moment of realization, which I really didn't want 664 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: to prompt, but he sort of thought, you know, how 665 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 1: can people sort of sanction such violence against people like me. 666 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: When Remnick was on the show, he said, the New 667 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 1: York Times is the weather. He wakes up in the 668 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 1: morning and the first thing he does is to read 669 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: the time of his whole entire media died. What's your 670 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:43,760 Speaker 1: media died? When you're up in the morning, I would 671 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: say the Times as well. I like listening also to 672 00:33:45,880 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: the BBC Today program. That's such a good program, and 673 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: it's just very good to keep up with news from 674 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: the UK as well. No TV news, No, I don't 675 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,280 Speaker 1: have a TV and I'm not one of those people, 676 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: you know. Actually, while I was in Africa, I really 677 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: you know, reporting actually in the Sahara and so on, 678 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: like most of the places you get France, fanc, France 679 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 1: twenty four, you know, everywhere, everywhere ago and I kind 680 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: of when I'm in Africa, I watched a lot of 681 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: France twenty four and r F which is Ra franc 682 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: at n and that's great as well. I mean they're 683 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 1: just that they're really like, I don't know, I find 684 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,319 Speaker 1: that sort of French quality of journalism, maybe sometimes influenced 685 00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: by French foreign policy, but actually they go very deep 686 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:31,960 Speaker 1: into a lot of issues that I'm interested in. The 687 00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,360 Speaker 1: other publication that I wanted to mention is jeanne Frique, 688 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 1: which is a sort of I think it's France based, 689 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,560 Speaker 1: where they cover lots of Africa, especially French speaking Africa, 690 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 1: in depth, and again often with a kind of French 691 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: twist or French foreign policy twist. What's the status of 692 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 1: the book at the moment. I'm in the middle of 693 00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,879 Speaker 1: writing it, reporting it, traveling. Yeah, exactly, when you come out. 694 00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: I hope to work on it all of next year 695 00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: and then the next year basically because you're doing other things, 696 00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 1: because I'm doing other things and I'm also just doing 697 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,520 Speaker 1: a lot of reporting on this as well. What's a 698 00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,959 Speaker 1: story you wouldn't tell what's a story that that people 699 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: suggested to you and your thought that's not from me? 700 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: If if you have, you've been asked to do profiles 701 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,560 Speaker 1: of movie stars and things like that to get a 702 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: paycheck into work, and you that didn't interest you. What 703 00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 1: don't you want to do? I think sort of gossip 704 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,520 Speaker 1: and sort of crying into people's personal lives. I think 705 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: probably things that you also probably wouldn't like, so you 706 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 1: didn't know the half of it. Yeah. Now I'm not 707 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: saying this to be kind. And when you're this incredibly 708 00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:35,680 Speaker 1: smart guy and I loved your piece, I can't wait 709 00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: for the book to come out. Do you have any 710 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 1: appetite for documentary film and filmmaking. I'd love to do 711 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:44,280 Speaker 1: documentary film and filmmaking. Um. Actually, when I graduated from Columbia, 712 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:48,000 Speaker 1: I went and made a mini doc about Roma gypsy 713 00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:52,120 Speaker 1: trumpet players in Serbia and Serbian nationals and that was 714 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,720 Speaker 1: really a really, really fun experience. But you know, writing 715 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,520 Speaker 1: has always been my first love. I feel like the 716 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,680 Speaker 1: work you're doing, I mean, these stories are the stories 717 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 1: people need to hear. Where there was injustice like this 718 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,319 Speaker 1: and where this there this exploitation. We have a set 719 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: of rules here in this country for our own and 720 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 1: there's things that we would never allowed. We'd be screaming 721 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,360 Speaker 1: from the mountaintops if we had this radioactive situation and 722 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: children being contamn we and we have things like that 723 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,160 Speaker 1: in this country now. But but when it is exposed, 724 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,719 Speaker 1: when it is brought to light, I'll never forget, you know, 725 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,919 Speaker 1: being a New Yorker. One of the things I loved 726 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: about being a New Yorker is the indignation and the 727 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,520 Speaker 1: outrage are never packed away. People carry a little bottle 728 00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,920 Speaker 1: of it with them. And when the needles all washed 729 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 1: up and all the medical waste washed up on the 730 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,279 Speaker 1: shores of New Jersey years ago, it was on the 731 00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 1: front page of People Went insane. They're like the beaches 732 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: of New Jersey and all these families go there and 733 00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 1: all this contamnity. I mean, people went nuts. And of 734 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 1: course writing books is is important, but that medium of 735 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: film is another layer that you should really really consider. 736 00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: You know, I've written about aunt, I've written a boy. 737 00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 1: I was a restaurant review while I was a fat 738 00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,480 Speaker 1: checker in the New Yorker. So I've did you review 739 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,360 Speaker 1: restaurants for the Yoka in the city. How old you 740 00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: do that two years. It was great and I did 741 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,319 Speaker 1: Buzz as well. It was fun because you know at 742 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:09,759 Speaker 1: the time, you know they would give you a couple 743 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 1: of hundred bucks to get to restaurants. And I did 744 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,359 Speaker 1: Del Posto with Frank Bruney. Okay, we went to one 745 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 1: of his sittings and Marine doubts that would you like 746 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:20,440 Speaker 1: to come with Frank and I and a fourth person. 747 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,040 Speaker 1: He's going to review Del Posto And I said, okay, 748 00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: here's the rules. He orders for everybody because he has 749 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:27,279 Speaker 1: to eat everything on the menu. So the four of 750 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:28,879 Speaker 1: you have to have what he tells you to eat, 751 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: and they're going to pass the plates or whatever you 752 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:32,799 Speaker 1: can all sample, but he's going to do the order 753 00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: because he must eat every item on the menu. He 754 00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: goes back four and five times and baba ba and 755 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: and he he took me through the whole reality of 756 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: Frank's life. So what was it like, were you going 757 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: four and five times to a restaurant or no, no, no, 758 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:46,640 Speaker 1: you go two times to the restaurant. Did they eventually 759 00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: catch on who you were? No? Not ready, but one 760 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: of the best experienced experiences doing that. I went to 761 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,200 Speaker 1: SMILEI Restaurant in Harlem, and then I came back after 762 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,359 Speaker 1: the review. I live up in Harlem, so it kind 763 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,480 Speaker 1: of was trying to rap Harlem restaurants. And I came 764 00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:02,279 Speaker 1: back after the review and there were like lines around 765 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: the block. It was great. It's really fun and it's 766 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 1: a wonderful place. I stand by my review. So that 767 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: was a nice moment. Do you identify as Greek, Irish, British, American, 768 00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: a journalist or all of the above? All of the above, 769 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:19,719 Speaker 1: But I I think that my Greek roots are very 770 00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: very important to me, and I feel very very strongly that, 771 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 1: you know, Greece is a troubled place but also somewhere 772 00:38:26,080 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: where one can do a lot of good. I like 773 00:38:28,719 --> 00:38:32,279 Speaker 1: the spirit of Greeks and Greeks abroad and this kind 774 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:37,200 Speaker 1: of journeying spirit. There's a poem by corsadovaf Is called Ithaca, 775 00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: which is probably the most famous modern Greek poem, and 776 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,520 Speaker 1: he talks about like hope as you set out for Ithaca, 777 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,200 Speaker 1: so you're sort of setting out for coming back home 778 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: as Odysseus. You hope that your journey is a long one, 779 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:50,920 Speaker 1: so you hope that you have this kind of like 780 00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,360 Speaker 1: journey which is full of adventures and cyclops and like 781 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,640 Speaker 1: dragonians and so on. So I like that sort of aspect, 782 00:38:57,680 --> 00:38:59,840 Speaker 1: and I think I probably sort of see myself in 783 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 1: Mold as well. I suppose journalist Nicholas ni ArkOS. This 784 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: episode was produced by Kathleen Russo, Carrie Donohue, Maureen Hoban, 785 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:17,800 Speaker 1: and Zach McNeice. Our engineer is Frank Imperial. I'm Alec Baldwin. 786 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,920 Speaker 1: Here's the thing is brought to you by iHeart Radio