WEBVTT - Tim "The Lawyer" Sandefur Talks to Armstrong & Getty, Part 1

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<v Speaker 1>When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to

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<v Speaker 1>at well mata dot com slash doing our part, No no,

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<v Speaker 1>do you picked a good hour of the arms drawing

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<v Speaker 1>and get a shot to tune in because we have

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<v Speaker 1>Tim the lawyer. Tim Standiford has been joining our show

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<v Speaker 1>now for years. You were a child then. I can't

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<v Speaker 1>believe it's been that long. I was just I was

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<v Speaker 1>just looking at some things that feel like yesterday, and

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<v Speaker 1>we're actually a long time ago. My wife and I

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<v Speaker 1>have decided to start watching Star Trek the Next Generation

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<v Speaker 1>on Netflix because she missed about half the show and

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<v Speaker 1>it was originally on the first episode of that show

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<v Speaker 1>was thirty two years ago now, which means that uh

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<v Speaker 1>that the show was a lot closer to the original

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<v Speaker 1>series than we are to that show. Now. That's an

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<v Speaker 1>interesting The original Star Trek is only twenty years old

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<v Speaker 1>than that show. Tim, aside from being a Star Trek historian,

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<v Speaker 1>is the vice president for Litigation at the Goldwater Institute.

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<v Speaker 1>Tim Sander for so, Tim, we know you're working on

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<v Speaker 1>some really exciting and fun stuff right now, and we

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<v Speaker 1>want to talk about that, But we have a couple

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<v Speaker 1>of general constitution e questions that we wanted to che.

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<v Speaker 1>I wonder what you're just because you're a guy who's

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<v Speaker 1>read a lot about the Founding and the Constitution, that's

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<v Speaker 1>what you do. Um um, what are your thoughts on

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<v Speaker 1>impeachment in general, not the particulars of this one, but

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<v Speaker 1>just the removal of a president from office. I think

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<v Speaker 1>that the Founding fathers expected us to use impeachment a

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<v Speaker 1>lot more a lot more than we do. And of

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<v Speaker 1>course not just presidents, but judges also, and uh, they

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<v Speaker 1>would be shocked that in the history of the United

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<v Speaker 1>States there have been so very few impeachments of people

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<v Speaker 1>who have abused or arguably abused their offices. Because impeachment

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<v Speaker 1>is a political process. Of impeachment is a constitutional political process.

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<v Speaker 1>It really drives me crazy that partisans in the media

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<v Speaker 1>referred to impeachment as a coup or as trying to

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<v Speaker 1>undo the election. No, impeachment is a political process that

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<v Speaker 1>if the if they're the constituents want it, then they

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<v Speaker 1>should get it. And that's that's what the system is

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<v Speaker 1>designed for. And and we have come close but not

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<v Speaker 1>actually convicted presidents in in the impeachment process because there

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<v Speaker 1>wasn't actually that kind of political pressure for it. So

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<v Speaker 1>now judges, I don't know, I don't know what how

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<v Speaker 1>many judges are judges for life are a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>judges judges for all Article three. Federal court judges are

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<v Speaker 1>jus for the the article for the good behavior, I

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<v Speaker 1>should say the article the argument for impeaching them makes

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<v Speaker 1>a little more sense than that. You know, the only

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<v Speaker 1>way you can get them out of there if you

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<v Speaker 1>think they're corrupt, whereas with a president h An elected

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<v Speaker 1>officially you can wait till the next election. And it

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<v Speaker 1>does happen that that federal judges are impeached, but you

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<v Speaker 1>know when you can. When you just look at the numbers,

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<v Speaker 1>it's just not plausible that we've been using impeachment as

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<v Speaker 1>often as we ought to. So you think it would

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<v Speaker 1>have been more I wonder if maybe we don't go

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<v Speaker 1>through a period here where we just constantly or impeaching. Yeah, no,

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<v Speaker 1>I and I and I don't see anything inherently wrong

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<v Speaker 1>with that, because the system is supposed to balance parties

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<v Speaker 1>against each other in order to protect the the individual.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, the whole system of checks and balances is

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<v Speaker 1>designed to keep the political branches at each other's throats,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's a blessing, that's a benefit to us. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>people talk about gridlock, they used the term gridlock, when

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<v Speaker 1>gridlock is a feature, not a bug. The system is

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<v Speaker 1>designed to to counteract each branch so that the people

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<v Speaker 1>can go out there about their business in peace and safety.

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<v Speaker 1>You want an efficient government where these the fools who

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<v Speaker 1>are in office can get what they want done immediately.

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<v Speaker 1>That would be a horrifying alternative. No, that that we're

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<v Speaker 1>better off with the political parties duking it out and

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<v Speaker 1>accomplishing nothing by the end of the day, because then

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<v Speaker 1>we can go about our our lives, pursuing happiness and

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<v Speaker 1>and and being with our families, and running our businesses

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<v Speaker 1>and and minding our own business. I mean, that's what

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<v Speaker 1>the Constitution was designed to do. So there's a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of discussion about what's an impeachable offense? We started our

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<v Speaker 1>talk show roughly coincident with the whole Clinton impeachment mess,

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<v Speaker 1>and there's there's bribery and treason and high crimes and misdemeanors,

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<v Speaker 1>and everybody argues about what that means. Um, I understand

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<v Speaker 1>they were vague, so it would cover things they couldn't anticipate.

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<v Speaker 1>But what about incompetence. What if you just think in

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people think the president sucks. That's that's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of what they did with Andrew Johnson was just

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<v Speaker 1>the idea, he sucks, let's throw whole bunch of stuff

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<v Speaker 1>at him. And he really did. I mean, he really

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<v Speaker 1>should have been thrown out of office. No, absolutely, incompetence

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<v Speaker 1>is an impeachbable offense. Of course it is. It has

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<v Speaker 1>to be. You couldn't possibly have a constitutional system where

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<v Speaker 1>a president, let's say, in the first year of office,

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<v Speaker 1>goes crazy or something and just decides to randomly do

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<v Speaker 1>all sorts of terrible things and there's nothing you can

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<v Speaker 1>do about. Of course, impeachment exists in order to remove

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<v Speaker 1>people who are unfit for office. Like switchness to the

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<v Speaker 1>metric system, my card gets fifteen rods to the hogshead,

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<v Speaker 1>and that's the way I like it. The impeach I mean, uh,

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<v Speaker 1>gross incompetence is an impeachable offense because it's a political crime.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a danger, a serious threat to the safety and

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<v Speaker 1>security of the people of the United States if the

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<v Speaker 1>president is dangerously incompetent, and so of course that is

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<v Speaker 1>an impeachable offense. But they specifically did not go with

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<v Speaker 1>the term maladministration or whatever they were talking about at

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<v Speaker 1>the time. That's true. But also, you know what, what

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<v Speaker 1>the founders chose not to include is of limited value

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<v Speaker 1>when interpreting the Constitution because there's lots of stuff they

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<v Speaker 1>chose not to include, and there's a lot of reasons

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<v Speaker 1>why they might have chosen not to include something. So

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps they didn't include terms like maladministration because they thought

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<v Speaker 1>that was covered sufficiently by the language that they did use.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's always of limited value to say, well, the

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<v Speaker 1>Founders show is not to include something. Maybe that's a

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<v Speaker 1>helpful argument, maybe not. But what we do know is

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<v Speaker 1>that historically speaking, and just as a matter of common sense,

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<v Speaker 1>removing a person from office because that person is dangerously

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<v Speaker 1>incompetent is obviously within what the Founding Fathers intended when

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<v Speaker 1>they wrote the Constitution. I'm not saying that that's the

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<v Speaker 1>situation today. I'm talking about what the Founding Fathers thought

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<v Speaker 1>at the time. They were right in the Constitution. Tim

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<v Speaker 1>Standard's VP for Litigation of the Goldwater Institute. The Second

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<v Speaker 1>Amendment is also another aspect of the Constitution, part of

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<v Speaker 1>the Constitution that seems to vex people for because it's

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<v Speaker 1>it's vague. Would the Constitution have been better if they've

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<v Speaker 1>made it two or three times as long or shorter.

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<v Speaker 1>So at the found at the writing of the Constitution,

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<v Speaker 1>there were a lot of people who were opposed to

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<v Speaker 1>including a bill of rights, including James Madison and James

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<v Speaker 1>Wilson are too, probably the two smartest guys at the

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<v Speaker 1>Constitutional Convention, and Alexander Hamilton's They were opposed to including

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<v Speaker 1>a bill of rights at all because they said, look,

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<v Speaker 1>the Constitution only allows the government to do the things

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<v Speaker 1>that we've listed on this piece of paper exactly. That's it.

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<v Speaker 1>They all they can do is what's listed here, and

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<v Speaker 1>if we put in there, if we write a bill

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<v Speaker 1>of rights that say, by the way, you have the

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<v Speaker 1>right to freedom of speech and the right freedom probably

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<v Speaker 1>blah blah blah. Then what's going to happen is people

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<v Speaker 1>are going to forget that the federal government only has

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<v Speaker 1>the power to do the things that are listed on

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<v Speaker 1>this piece. That's a pretty argument. It turns out that's

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<v Speaker 1>right if if you and if you accidentally leave something out,

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<v Speaker 1>people will think that you purposely left it out there.

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<v Speaker 1>So they said, if we were at a Bill of

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<v Speaker 1>rights that leaves out that you have a right to

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<v Speaker 1>run barefoot through sprinklers on a hot summer day, you

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<v Speaker 1>might have people out there who say, well, you don't

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<v Speaker 1>have a right to run barefoot through sprinklers on as

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<v Speaker 1>slumber day because it's not in the Constitution. And sure

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<v Speaker 1>enough that is today how a large number of people

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<v Speaker 1>read the Constitution. So it's arguable that we would have

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<v Speaker 1>been better off without a Bill of Rights because that

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<v Speaker 1>would have forced people to face the fact that the

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<v Speaker 1>federal government has limited powers. That is really interesting. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't by itself by that argument, but it's an interesting argument.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there anything in the Constitution about becoming the world's

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<v Speaker 1>largest insurance company read distributor of wealth? And there is

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<v Speaker 1>nothing in the Constitution that authorizes the federal government to

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<v Speaker 1>do those things, I thought, not all right, then, so

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<v Speaker 1>let's talk about what you're doing these days about we

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<v Speaker 1>have a big case we're gonna be asking the Supreme

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<v Speaker 1>Court to take this month that involves whether lawyers can

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<v Speaker 1>be forced to join bar associations. And this is a

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<v Speaker 1>this is a very important issue. So for a long

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<v Speaker 1>time now, lawyers have been forced not just to pass

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<v Speaker 1>the bar exam and not talking about the bar exam.

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<v Speaker 1>You have to pass the exam and you get licensed,

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<v Speaker 1>you get sworn in, then you're a lawyer. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>different thing. A lot of states, about twenty states, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry about thirty states today now force lawyers to join

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<v Speaker 1>bar associations, which are private clubs, are basically labor unions

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<v Speaker 1>for lawyers. And I am a member of the Arizona

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<v Speaker 1>State Bar Association they called the Arizona State Bar but

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<v Speaker 1>it's a it's a private trade organization that I'm required

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<v Speaker 1>every year to pay five dollars or so too, and

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<v Speaker 1>they spend this money on political activities. They lobby the legislature,

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<v Speaker 1>they take political positions on things. State bar associations do

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<v Speaker 1>this all over the country. Even though I disagree that

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<v Speaker 1>they're forcing me to subsidize political speech that I disagree

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<v Speaker 1>with and you disagree with some of their positions. Oh yes,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is now you might think or not. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not sure you should absolutely, and and listeners might think, well,

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<v Speaker 1>who cares about the first meant rights of lawyers themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>And this is very important because bar associations have a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of political influence with state legislatures, because state bars

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<v Speaker 1>lobby and they get a lot of influence, and they

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<v Speaker 1>got listened to a lot at state at the state level,

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<v Speaker 1>and then they may never notice that in corrupt the fornias.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the media view of the media regularly throws

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<v Speaker 1>around whichever bar association believes this as if well, but

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<v Speaker 1>not subtles it as if that's they speak for the

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<v Speaker 1>entire legal profession, and they don't. So we have sued

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<v Speaker 1>over this issue in several states in Louisiana, in Oklahoma,

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<v Speaker 1>and Oregon. There are cases going on in Wisconsin and Texas,

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<v Speaker 1>and we're doing a case in North Dakota that we're

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<v Speaker 1>asking the U. S. Supreme Court to take and to

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<v Speaker 1>hold that lawyers cannot be forced to join bar associations

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<v Speaker 1>and subsidize their political activities just like the Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>has already said you cannot be forced to join the

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<v Speaker 1>labor union and subsidize its political activities against your will.

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<v Speaker 1>How hard does that test? The bar? Uh, the bar

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<v Speaker 1>exam itself, that it is, it's certainly the hardest test.

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<v Speaker 1>I Ever, how long does it take you? Well, these kids,

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<v Speaker 1>these kids that they have no idea how good they

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<v Speaker 1>have it? When I took the bars and the California

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<v Speaker 1>Bargsam is a three day exam, three days, and the

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<v Speaker 1>Arizona Bar Exam was and still is a two day exam.

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<v Speaker 1>I believe California is now only two days. But it

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<v Speaker 1>is a very demanding test. And um, could you pass

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<v Speaker 1>it today or is it the sort of thing you

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<v Speaker 1>need to study up for? At that time, I would

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<v Speaker 1>have to study up for it. And I was in

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<v Speaker 1>a bad situation because I took it in California fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>years ago, and then I had to retake it in

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<v Speaker 1>Arizona two years ago when I lived there. So it

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<v Speaker 1>is a uh, yeah, it was tough to have to

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<v Speaker 1>go back over that stuff and relearn it. Is it

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<v Speaker 1>like word searches two pictures? What's the difference between these

0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:58.040
<v Speaker 1>two pictures sort of things? Well, the answer is no.

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<v Speaker 1>But actually to get into law school you have to

0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.880
<v Speaker 1>take another test, the l s AT, and the L

0:11:03.920 --> 0:11:06.520
<v Speaker 1>set actually does have something kind of like that. The

0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.280
<v Speaker 1>l SAT exam is a lot of logic puzzles. It's

0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.840
<v Speaker 1>stuff like, you know, you have a chicken and a

0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.000
<v Speaker 1>wolf and a bag of seed, and you have to

0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:16.520
<v Speaker 1>cross the river in a canoe, and you can really

0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:18.280
<v Speaker 1>have two in the same canoe at the same time.

0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:21.680
<v Speaker 1>That kind of question is on the L side. Do

0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:24.679
<v Speaker 1>you have to go to law school to take the bar? Uh?

0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:28.440
<v Speaker 1>Not in every state, but some state could study up.

0:11:29.080 --> 0:11:35.480
<v Speaker 1>There are some Sti Randalls like Lincoln call Jack. California

0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:37.680
<v Speaker 1>is the is I think the only state where you

0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.120
<v Speaker 1>can take the bar exam without having gone to law school.

0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:42.520
<v Speaker 1>And every few year a few people passed the bar

0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:45.160
<v Speaker 1>exam having studied on their own. Very few. And of

0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:46.640
<v Speaker 1>course it's very hard to get a job if you

0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:51.240
<v Speaker 1>do that, but it is possible. If you graduate from

0:11:51.320 --> 0:11:53.160
<v Speaker 1>law school you are automatically a member of the bar

0:11:53.240 --> 0:11:56.760
<v Speaker 1>in a few states. Among the fine books that Tim

0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Senterver has written uh the recent The Ascent of Jacob Bronowski,

0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:03.840
<v Speaker 1>which we talked to him about on a podcast right,

0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:06.640
<v Speaker 1>that's right at some point. Uh yeah, very very good. Uh.

0:12:06.640 --> 0:12:10.080
<v Speaker 1>Frederick Douglas self Made Man, which is absolutely terrific. The

0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Permission Society, which we helped inspire, finally inspired something positive

0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:16.480
<v Speaker 1>in the world. Um, and the right to earn a

0:12:16.520 --> 0:12:20.600
<v Speaker 1>living one of my faiths about economic freedom, which is

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:24.240
<v Speaker 1>another forgotten notion these days. Very much so. Yeah. Anyway,

0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:25.800
<v Speaker 1>we'll have a linked all that stuff for you. We'll

0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:28.280
<v Speaker 1>be back with him to talk more liberty and constitution

0:12:28.320 --> 0:12:33.200
<v Speaker 1>stuff like that in moments on the Armstrong and Getty Show.

0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.000
<v Speaker 1>When you're ready to ride Metro, we want you to

0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:41.640
<v Speaker 1>know we're ready for you. Here are just a few

0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:43.480
<v Speaker 1>of the people at Metro to tell you how we're

0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:46.400
<v Speaker 1>doing our part to keep writers safe. We're cleaning like

0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:50.680
<v Speaker 1>novel before the Great Queen. You've found hands out of suns,

0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:55.760
<v Speaker 1>of spaces, no masks, no Metro need one. We have

0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:58.640
<v Speaker 1>a few extras at Metro. We're doing our part to

0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.240
<v Speaker 1>keep the DC area moved. Find out more at will

0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.280
<v Speaker 1>Mota dot com slash doing our part