WEBVTT - Matilda with Jess Murwin 0:00:00.960 --> 0:00:04.000 On the Doll Cast, the questions asked if movies have 0:00:04.080 --> 0:00:07.960 women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, 0:00:08.039 --> 0:00:12.399 or do they have individualism? The patriarchy Zef and best 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:18.640 start changing it with the Bell Cast. Jamie, Caitlin, eat 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:22.680 this chocolate cake right now. I noticed that you stole 0:00:22.720 --> 0:00:26.480 my cake from earlier, and now you have to eat 0:00:26.560 --> 0:00:34.000 this whole giant chocolate cake. Because I'm mean, honestly, I 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:38.320 would gladly eat the chocolate cake. And in fact, I 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:40.760 wish you thought through this punishment more because it seems 0:00:40.760 --> 0:00:44.280 like I win. Yeah. Well, now I'm rethinking it, and 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:46.960 I feel like I should just invite you over to 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:49.040 eat some cake with me and like have a nice 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:51.480 time together. Yeah, should we just like hang out? Yeah, 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:54.680 let's do that. See, this is how the conflict should 0:00:54.680 --> 0:01:02.720 have resolved in that scene. That's that's good screen writing. Absolutely. Yeah. 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:07.320 Welcome to the Bechtel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftus, 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.919 my name is Caitlin Durante, and this is our show 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:16.440 in which we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:19.840 using the Bechtel test as a jumping off point. It 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:22.880 just is there to initiate a larger conversation we have. 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:28.319 But Jamie, tell me, yeah, what is it? What is 0:01:28.360 --> 0:01:30.960 the Bechtel test? I get you? Keep eating your cake. 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.039 I'll let you know what it is, Okay, the back 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:41.000 Del disgusting. The Chel test is a media metric created 0:01:41.280 --> 0:01:44.440 by queer cartoonist Alice and Bechdels, sometimes called the Bechdel 0:01:44.520 --> 0:01:48.000 Wallace test. There's many versions of it. Here's the one 0:01:48.080 --> 0:01:53.080 that we use. We require that therapy two characters of 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:56.600 a marginalized gender with names who speak to each other 0:01:56.680 --> 0:01:59.960 about something other than a man for two lines of dialog, 0:02:00.240 --> 0:02:05.280 and the exchange should be meaningful in some way. Ideally Yeah, 0:02:05.720 --> 0:02:09.200 so so no, Hey, can I take your order? Yes? 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.440 I will have the cake unless it's important plot cake, 0:02:13.560 --> 0:02:17.160 in which case, so you know it's complicated. Every plot 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:20.280 cake it counts. If it's just cake, it doesn't count. 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:25.760 Every exchange is worth a close examination, which is why 0:02:25.800 --> 0:02:28.440 we talk about the movies for longer than the movies 0:02:28.560 --> 0:02:33.840 run time almost every time. True, ye, should we bring 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:39.440 on our returning guest? Yes, we have a much requested 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:42.519 episode today. We've been getting requests for this movie for years, 0:02:42.560 --> 0:02:45.520 and we were simply waiting for the right time, the 0:02:45.600 --> 0:02:48.440 right place, the right guest, and here they are and 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:51.919 the time is now our guests. They are a non binary, 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:56.239 mixed race magma artist, curator, and educator. Their work focuses 0:02:56.280 --> 0:03:00.400 on reclaiming narrative space and fusing genre with social justice 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:03.880 and holding space collaboration. And you know them from our 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:08.800 episode on Rhymes for Young Ghouls. It's just Merwin. Hello, 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:19.880 Let's get sticky. This movie is very sticky. So many textures, 0:03:20.120 --> 0:03:24.440 so many gooey, gooey textures. Um, I forgot that John 0:03:24.520 --> 0:03:29.000 Lovett's has like a cameo as the Let's Get Sticky 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:32.920 guy from the TV show they watch. Also, like there's 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:35.600 a magazine at one point that Zinny is holding with 0:03:35.680 --> 0:03:38.640 like like Let's get Sticky and John Lovett's on the cover. 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:41.680 So I'm like, is this game show in world like 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:45.800 a big thing, like a big deal, And like, I 0:03:45.880 --> 0:03:50.040 bet interesting, you know, interesting choice. I kind of want 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.600 to what I would I like, I know that there's 0:03:53.640 --> 0:03:56.320 a lot of telegraphing of like television is the root 0:03:56.320 --> 0:04:00.040 of all evil in this movie, which you know, I 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:04.000 agree to disagree. But but as I was as that 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:07.400 show was playing, I was like honestly, I would watch 0:04:07.520 --> 0:04:11.000 that show. That's I watched The Masked Singer, Like, I 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.520 would watch that show for sure. Um, have you heard 0:04:14.520 --> 0:04:19.960 about this new reality television competition program that's called The Activist? 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:22.120 Oh my god, Yeah, that is a show I will 0:04:22.160 --> 0:04:27.800 not watch and how it's a fucking horrendous disaster piece 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:29.760 of ship. Yeah, but I kind of want to watch 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:31.760 it for similar reasons of being like, oh, this is 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:36.279 a bad idea, but like it, Like I can't not watch. 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:40.839 I cannot watch. I like reality TV always has its 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:45.719 finger on the pulse of late stage capitalism. Uh that 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.520 is like the most late stage capitalism. I was like, 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:54.520 oh wow, okay, so we're just doing this that Yeah, 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:56.800 that's that's going to be a bleak one. Who is 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.560 like I I forget who was like on the feel 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:05.480 like sure as a judge, Yeah, I wonder if he's 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.560 going to be like, Okay, here's I can only contribute 0:05:08.680 --> 0:05:16.120 ushbucks to Uh interesting? Oh my goodness. Yeah, you know, 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:23.200 famous famous philanthropist and singing sensation philanthropist. Yeah, I don't know. 0:05:23.480 --> 0:05:27.000 I don't know, Like I you know, I saw a post. 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.520 I think it was a friend of the show Jamison, 0:05:29.560 --> 0:05:31.240 meaning who was like posting about it, and I was 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:35.080 just like this, this is such this is like a 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:40.200 nightmare that I would have, you know, like right, so 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:42.720 you know, it's like I feel the same way about 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:48.120 let's get sticky. Let's get sticky. Yeah, well should we 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:53.920 get sticky by diving into Jess? What is your relationship 0:05:54.040 --> 0:06:00.760 with this movie? Um? Oh boy? So you know, Matilda 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.720 was like a very treasured film like when I was 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:06.039 growing up. It was one of the ones that we 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:10.360 had on VHS definitely, and that in like the Lindsay 0:06:10.360 --> 0:06:13.520 Lohan parent trap. We're on like constant rotation in my 0:06:13.640 --> 0:06:18.440 hand like house with like my little sister, and you know, 0:06:18.680 --> 0:06:20.200 it was really funny because I hadn't seen it in 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.719 a really long time. And then we were talking about 0:06:22.720 --> 0:06:24.440 like coming back on the show and I was like 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:26.839 trying to think of movies and I saw that like 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:29.240 Matilda was now on Canadian Netflix. I was like, oh 0:06:29.240 --> 0:06:31.800 my god, we should do Matilda. And it was literally 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:35.120 the first time that I'd watched it probably in like 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:39.120 twenty years, and all of a sudden had this like 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.280 a piphany moment, was like, oh my god, I think 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:46.360 this movie is why I'm gay, Like like, oh, this 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:50.400 is my route, um because and we'll get I'm sure 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:53.440 we'll talk more about that. But like, rediscovering this film 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.839 as an adult in the last you know, month or 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:59.159 so has been a real trip. It's not me really 0:06:59.240 --> 0:07:03.080 reevaluate do a lot of things about myself in a 0:07:03.160 --> 0:07:05.640 positive way. Like I'm like, I say, I hope in 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:09.360 a good way. Yeah, yeah, you know. And I'm like, oh, 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:11.760 maybe this is where I learned things because like, again, 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:13.400 you know, there is a lot of like messaging in 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:15.520 this film about how television is bad. But I also 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.160 feel like, at least for our generation, I was really 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:23.200 raised by TV, like you know, so I'm like, maybe 0:07:23.840 --> 0:07:26.520 I was also a bookish kid who didn't really have friends. 0:07:27.120 --> 0:07:30.200 I was also a kid who had you know, abusive 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:34.360 parents who didn't understand me. I was like, maybe maybe 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.200 this is Matilda is the reason Matilda's like why I 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:41.360 became an educator or like yeah, I don't know. Yeah, 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:43.560 so I so it's very near and dear to my 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:46.960 heart in in a lot of ways. Um yeah, that's 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:49.520 that's sort of my history with it. Was like I 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:51.320 loved as a kid, didn't see it for a real 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:54.080 long time, watched it again and was like, no, I'm 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:58.600 reformulating my personality around this movie and so much as 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:05.000 coming into focus. Indeed, indeed, Jamie, what's your relationship with Matilda? 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.360 I can't believe I'm saying this, but I have never 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:11.360 seen this movie before, which is so bizarre to me 0:08:11.520 --> 0:08:15.560 because it's like I'm in the right age range to 0:08:15.680 --> 0:08:17.640 have seen it, Like I think everyone I know is 0:08:18.040 --> 0:08:20.480 seen it. I think that it had to do with 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:22.760 my mom didn't like Rolled. I don't know. I feel 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.040 like there's over the years on the show, I've just 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.400 discovered all of these bizarre rules that my mom imposed 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.560 on our media diets, just based on her personal preferences, 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.280 where she's like, I don't like Rolled Doll adaptations, they're gross, 0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.719 and therefore I think it was just she was like, 0:08:39.760 --> 0:08:42.800 these movies are too sticky and you can't watch them. 0:08:42.800 --> 0:08:45.240 I mean, let's get sticky. I wasn't allowed to watch 0:08:45.520 --> 0:08:49.960 Um Charlie and the Chocolate Factory either, so and I 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:51.480 don't even think it was allowed. It's just like it 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:53.880 wasn't around, it wasn't available because my mom thought it 0:08:53.920 --> 0:08:57.000 was gross. So I've never seen this movie before, and 0:08:57.400 --> 0:09:00.600 oh my gosh, I wish I had seen it because 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.920 it would have, um, it would have made me so happy. 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:07.200 I really, I really really loved I mean, there's plenty 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:11.199 to talk about, but there's also so much joy in 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.360 this movie, and like you can just tell in the 0:09:13.400 --> 0:09:17.080 production of the movie as well. It was just such 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:20.480 a great I watched the movie three times to prepare, 0:09:20.480 --> 0:09:24.280 which was not necessary, but I just was enjoying it 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:26.280 so much. And then I was like having a tough 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.000 couple of weeks, and I kept coming back to it 0:09:28.000 --> 0:09:31.520 because it made me feel good about the world. And 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:34.079 so yeah, and also I feel like we should, I mean, 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.920 we at the betele cast have an extreme Maura Wilson 0:09:38.160 --> 0:09:41.880 bias because yes, Maura Wilson is a friend of the cast. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:46.040 So also you know, we're we're always tipping the scales 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:50.040 in Mara's favor. That's true. Check out the episode we 0:09:50.120 --> 0:09:55.520 recorded on ELF couple of years ago featuring Mara. So yeah, 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:59.000 this was my first time seeing it and seeing it 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:01.640 and seeing it and it makes me so happy to watch. 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:03.360 So I'm so glad we got to talk about it. 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:10.160 What about you, Kitalin, Yeah, um, my relationship is fairly limited. Actually, 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:12.760 I had seen it as a kid. I remember there 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:17.200 was some VHS that we owned that had remember when, 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.920 like VHS has had trailers for other movies that were 0:10:20.920 --> 0:10:24.559 coming out around the time. I forget what one it was, 0:10:24.800 --> 0:10:27.920 but I've seen the like teaser or whatever for this 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:33.840 movie hundreds of times for whatever VHS that teaser was on. 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:36.520 I don't remember which movie it was, so I've seen 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.040 the trailer a million times. But um, I had only 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:42.960 seen this movie probably once or twice as a kid, 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.640 so and it was so long ago that I might 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.120 as well not have really seen it. But then I 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.280 did kind of take it upon myself to watch it 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.480 as an adult within the past year because I figured 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:57.760 we'd cover it at some point soon, and I was like, oh, 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:03.240 I should like reacquaint myself with this movie. And I did, 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:08.840 and I was, yeah, like pleasantly surprised by how sweet 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:14.240 and compelling it is, and how there's a lot to 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:18.679 talk about, as per always with every movie, absolutely, and 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:20.720 it's like it's one of those things that like Jamie 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:22.920 you mentioned too, like there's a lot to talk about 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:26.520 just in the film itself, but like also behind the 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.960 scenes as well, like and a lot of like contexty 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:32.600 sort of stuff that, like, you know, on the surface, 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:34.880 it's like, oh, this is like a beloved children's film, 0:11:34.880 --> 0:11:37.040 but there's actually there's so much there and there was 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:41.160 so much going on to even like bring it into existence, 0:11:41.200 --> 0:11:44.400 like have it exist as a film. Yeah, it's pretty cool. 0:11:44.440 --> 0:11:47.000 I was really surprised you guys hadn't done it yet. 0:11:48.440 --> 0:11:50.360 So I'm super happy that, like we get a chance 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.959 to chat about it because it's one of the few 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:56.000 or I don't I don't have like the best. I'd 0:11:56.000 --> 0:11:58.840 have to like do a thorough study on this, but 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.840 I feel like so many movies, like kids movies, like 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:07.320 family oriented movies from this era and like a little earlier, 0:12:07.360 --> 0:12:13.200 like the eighties and nineties, we're focused on little boys. Um, 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.680 and it feels like this is one of the few 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:20.560 from that era that features a little girl. So and 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.320 they still, I mean they still skew very heavily on 0:12:23.400 --> 0:12:25.880 like when they do focus on little girls, it's usually 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:29.760 little white girls. But I'm like the movies that come 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:32.400 to mind from this era, I feel, let me know 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:35.599 if I'm missing anything. But it's like Matilda, Harriet the Spy, 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.800 a Little Princess, uh Lindsay Low and parent Trap is 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.560 that it is there. Yeah, definitely. I Mean if you 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:48.000 could include all the amazing Mary Kayton Ashley movies, that's 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:52.120 true there, and then there's five hundred movies about girlhood 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.719 that's very true. That's very true. Like, but it's it's 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.280 really interesting in terms of that because I still feel 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:01.560 like to a certain degree that's still the case. Like 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.800 I think it's changing, but like I think about like 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.240 the young people in my life, nieces and nephews and 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:09.920 like friends of kids and things like that, and like 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:12.880 if I'm looking to like give them any kind of media, 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:17.240 whether it's a book or a movie or something that 0:13:17.320 --> 0:13:19.720 like a lot of times it's really like I don't know, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.480 I feel really hard pressed to find like stories that 0:13:22.520 --> 0:13:28.080 are about like little girls that aren't like princesses or 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.640 aren't white, or aren't sort of you know, like upper 0:13:30.640 --> 0:13:34.000 middle class. And so you know, there's like certain ways 0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.640 that that that like, you know, we'll get into it, 0:13:36.640 --> 0:13:38.760 Like there's certain ways that like I think there's you know, 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.080 playing to criticize with Matilda, but like I also think 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.520 that there's like certain ways that it sticks out as 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:50.640 like being so unique just out sticky, sticky. Sorry, it's 0:13:50.640 --> 0:13:55.720 stickies in your memory. Um, whoever like listens to this 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:57.880 episode and tallies up how many time we say stick 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.640 or sticky or make reference to like it's get sticky, 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.680 like should have been some kind of prise, a big 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:15.920 bottle of goo. Yeah you're welcome. Yeah. Um, but like yeah, 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:17.640 like I think we've until this sort of like still 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:20.920 sticks out like in the landscape of children's media because 0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:25.560 of that, like she's not a princess, and like there's 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:28.160 like some good values that are still sort of like 0:14:28.960 --> 0:14:32.560 in the film that like make it really repiled a 0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:36.800 still show to young people. Yeah. Yeah, I think for 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.280 the most part it holds up in in way more 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:41.240 ways than I was expecting it to. I mean, just 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:45.000 even the core message that there's a little girl who 0:14:45.160 --> 0:14:49.320 is smart and the fact that she's smart makes her 0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:51.960 more compassionate instead of less. I feel like you see 0:14:52.000 --> 0:14:56.040 the opposite message telegraphed a lot and there I just 0:14:56.080 --> 0:15:00.400 love her, and and all the messages are of about 0:15:00.400 --> 0:15:04.520 like chosen family. Um, you know, all the messages to 0:15:04.920 --> 0:15:09.480 around like having like a strong sense of justice. Um, 0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:13.520 I think are like really really interesting because like even 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.840 before Matilda really gets like a hold of her powers, 0:15:16.880 --> 0:15:19.920 you know, she's like telling her dad, you know, like 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.880 you're a crook, You're doing the wrong thing. The cops 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:28.240 are like watching that, Like Paul Rubens is outside, is 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:32.600 outside dad, and he's being a camera bro like he's 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.120 like but like yeah, so so like you know, there's 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:38.600 like there's things like that that I think are really cool, 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:41.760 you know, to like teach kids. It's like, yeah, if 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:44.640 you feel like something is wrong, it's probably wrong, you know, 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.840 like and you have a right to sort of say that. 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:51.240 And with Miss Honey's storyline is like so much of 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:56.400 her story progressing is dependent on her believing Matilda and 0:15:56.480 --> 0:16:00.440 taking her seriously, like we'reking for a little while she 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.000 doesn't believe Matilda, she's sort of like, okay, pass around 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:06.600 the head, and it's like, you know, sends her on 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:13.160 her way, much like the song sends her on her way. Uh. 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.880 But then when she believes Matilda and does realize you know, 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.440 that she's right, she does have these powers, and that 0:16:19.560 --> 0:16:24.080 ends upsetting Miss Honey free as well. I like the 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:30.360 damn movie. It's nice. Yeah, let's take a quick break 0:16:30.400 --> 0:16:41.120 and then come right back to recap it and we're back. Okay, 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.880 So here is the story of Matilda. We open on 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:51.840 a newborn baby, as well as voiceover from Danny DeVito. 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:55.640 But this is Danny DeVitto the narrator, not Danny DeVito 0:16:55.760 --> 0:17:01.240 the character. They're two different things. But Danny DeVito is 0:17:01.280 --> 0:17:05.360 talking about how everyone is born, but some people are 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:10.920 born special. Then we meet Danny DeVito the character a 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:15.440 k a. Harry Wormwood. Not confusing at all, not confusing 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:19.440 at all, but iconic. Like opening show, like, the introduction 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:27.000 to Harry Wormwood is like kids make grimacing at a 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:30.919 bunch of babies, you know, like you do, totally normal 0:17:30.960 --> 0:17:33.240 for an adult man just to like be making that 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:35.720 face out a bunch of newborns. Yeah yeah. And then 0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:40.919 he sees his daughter and he's like, I guess I 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.440 also love like the whole sort of like there are 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:51.320 two genders, pink babies and blue babies. I mean, unfortunately, 0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:55.840 something that so many people still subscribe to. There's a store, 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.399 there's a store for babies down the street for me 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:04.840 that's literally called the Pink in the Blue. How embarrassing 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:10.800 for them? Yeah, okay, So we meet Harry Wormwood and 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:15.120 his wife, Zinnia played by Ria Pearlman. They take home 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:20.119 their newborn daughter Matilda, who they barely pay attention to 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:23.960 because they're selfish and they're not nice people. And also 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:29.280 Ria Pearlman's outfits are really good. Oh, I mean actually 0:18:29.280 --> 0:18:32.120 all like the everyone's outfit in this movie. I feel 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.600 like the like the Wormwoodes, even though you know their mean, 0:18:35.680 --> 0:18:38.520 mean mean, their outfits are the ones that I want 0:18:38.600 --> 0:18:41.040 the most. I don't want the good guy's outfits. No, 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:44.960 like Miss Honey for all of her virtues, essentially just 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.880 wear his beige the whole movie. Yeah, I'm just like, 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:50.920 oh the virtuous must wear beige. No, let the virtuous 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.720 wear Pearlman's outfit. Yes, like her bingo jacket, her jacket 0:18:55.960 --> 0:18:57.840 bingos and rhind stones on the back, And I'm like, 0:18:57.920 --> 0:19:02.720 I want that jacket, that jacket. I hope that someone's 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.000 taking good care of that jacket. I hope Rea Pearlman 0:19:05.080 --> 0:19:08.040 still wears it. I hope she does do. Apparently she 0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.800 went to like when her and Danny Vido, you know, 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:13.840 we're starting to work in the movie. Apparently she went 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.359 to Las Vegas to buy all these clothes and it 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:18.880 was like part of her personal wardrobe that she wore 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.720 on set. So I was so I really do hope 0:19:22.760 --> 0:19:25.119 that like she does have that jacket and breaks it 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:29.119 out for special occasions because it is so perfect. I 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.800 forgot that she and Danny DeVito got divorced, and then 0:19:31.840 --> 0:19:34.520 I remembered, and then it made me for around. But 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.760 I didn't even know they were married until I was 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:40.640 like reading about this movie they're iconically married. I guess 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.680 I had no idea about Danny DeVito's personal life, nor 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:49.880 did I really know who Rea Perlman was. My bad 0:19:51.640 --> 0:19:55.080 I stand for one as like as as a comedy, 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:58.920 as a fashion icon. Um. But yeah, apparently they're still 0:19:58.960 --> 0:20:04.119 very good friends. They have stayed very close, so that 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:05.840 like makes me happy. That kind of makes up for 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.360 the fact that they separated. Yeah, I just want them 0:20:08.359 --> 0:20:11.719 to be happy. They seem like such I've not heard. 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.120 I hope that I haven't missed something, but I've I've 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:17.040 never heard a bad word about either of them. They 0:20:17.080 --> 0:20:20.320 both seem so lovely. No, and that's something maybe like 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:22.480 I don't know what we should like Caitlin maybe finished 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.200 the recap, but that's something we should definitely talk about 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:28.119 because I feel like Danny DeVito, shall we say, almost 0:20:28.160 --> 0:20:30.919 like unproblematic king Like I feel like, I don't know, 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.760 I'm problematic King, short King. The list goes on. Hopefully 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:37.840 this episode age as well in that regard, because as 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:41.879 of for this recording, unproblematic King who seems to be 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.840 beloved by a But we've been fooled before. Yes that's true, 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.480 that's true. But he just like got banned from Twitter 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.480 like two weeks ago for supporting like Nibisco workers being 0:20:51.480 --> 0:20:54.679 on strike. So like him, Oh my god, I didn't 0:20:54.680 --> 0:20:58.399 know that, I know, right, like Danny, and he was 0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:02.920 like openly calling likely being like, yeah, America is pretty racist. 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:05.679 Like before it was like okay to be woke. He 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.480 was like, yeah, this is a pretty racist country. So 0:21:08.720 --> 0:21:13.480 you know, loke King added to the list. We'll see 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.879 if he's a sticky king. Oh we get to the 0:21:16.000 --> 0:21:20.200 end of the I'm gonna hazard a guest and say 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:24.960 he is a sticky king. Okay. So Matilda gets a 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:29.359 bit older. She developed a lot of exceptional skills. She's 0:21:29.440 --> 0:21:31.600 very independent, she can cook for herself at a very 0:21:31.600 --> 0:21:35.040 young age. She's very good at reading by age like four, 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.600 and then she starts going to the library every day 0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:42.200 and reads tons and tons of books. Then she gets 0:21:42.240 --> 0:21:46.080 a little older six and a half and becomes Marl Wilson. 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:50.080 She wants to go to school, but her parents refused 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.760 to send her to school, which I'm pretty sure is illegal. 0:21:55.160 --> 0:22:00.560 She then starts to retaliate against her dad. She pulls 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:03.920 a lot of hair based pranks. Basically switches some bottles 0:22:03.960 --> 0:22:06.760 around so that he accidentally bleaches his hair. Then she 0:22:06.880 --> 0:22:09.760 superglues his hat to his head. I didn't realize that 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:13.080 they were all hair based pranks. Yeah, good hair pranks. Yeah, 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:15.600 good hair pranks. But like, I don't think she really 0:22:15.640 --> 0:22:17.640 like pranks her mom, Like, I don't think she really 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:21.440 pranks in it's mostly directed at her dad, which that 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:25.160 is maybe something worth discussing later on. But as far 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:31.560 as like the child abuse that Matilda is the survivor of, 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.159 it does mostly seem to be at the hand of 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:39.280 her dad, where even though her mom is extremely neglectful 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.960 and you know, not a great parent and not nice 0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.880 or affectionate towards Matilda and like certainly turning her head 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:47.879 the other way, I mean, because she's aware that abuse 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:52.040 is happening. Yes, for sure, she's enabling that situation to 0:22:52.080 --> 0:22:53.959 go on, you know. But there were a few there 0:22:53.960 --> 0:22:57.000 were several scenes where like she's like, Okay, I'm leaving 0:22:57.000 --> 0:22:59.760 the house six year old Matilda to go play bingo 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:03.639 if you want some chicken nuggets there in the microwave. 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:08.720 Like she seems a bit more pleasant at least, so yeah, 0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:14.000 I guess Matilda spares her from hair based pranks. Hair 0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:21.040 based pranks. Then one night Harry rips up Matilda's library 0:23:21.040 --> 0:23:23.520 book and forces her to watch TV, and then the 0:23:23.560 --> 0:23:28.080 TV explodes, and it seems like maybe it was just 0:23:28.119 --> 0:23:32.000 a coincidence or maybe she made the TV explode with 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:38.640 her mind. We don't know, you think, is it a 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:44.000 carry situation? Wow? This is I didn't even think of that, 0:23:44.119 --> 0:23:48.520 But this is kind of like the family friendly comedy 0:23:48.640 --> 0:23:54.200 version of carry. Yeah yeah, But like fire Starter, there's 0:23:54.200 --> 0:23:56.880 a lot of like abused kids developed tell the Connecticut 0:23:57.160 --> 0:23:59.640 stories out there, you know, like it's a popular drop 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:04.239 like if only Carrie had a stronger inherent sense of 0:24:04.320 --> 0:24:08.159 justice things, maybe things would have gone a little different, 0:24:09.240 --> 0:24:11.280 or at least there was like more sort of like 0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:14.240 hamming it up. You know, there's just more hamming it 0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:17.920 up and carry pratfalls. You know, we've always said about 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:21.600 Carrie here at the balls not sticky enough. I was 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:26.199 just gonna say the main problem with Carrie not enough stickiness. 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:28.879 I don't know, it gets pretty sticky. It sounds like 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:31.760 it's not not a sticky movie, but just not quite 0:24:32.200 --> 0:24:35.160 where we needed to be. I mean, she gets blood 0:24:35.280 --> 0:24:40.000 dumped on her. That's that's pretty sticky. That's pretty stick 0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:46.240 Could be stickier though, could be? Could be That's my 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:50.640 impression of a Hollywood executive justifying their presence. I don't know. 0:24:51.200 --> 0:24:54.200 So we think it's sticky enough, maybe we should reshoot it. 0:24:54.680 --> 0:24:58.720 That's me working at Marvel. Sticky enough, I don't know anyways. 0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:04.160 That would be one million dollars please, Yeah, I think 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:06.480 I think this ending is really touching, but it would 0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:09.920 be better if she could get gacked, you know, just slime. 0:25:10.080 --> 0:25:12.879 What if everyone got just climbed at the end of 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.719 the Venger's endgame. I'm just spitballing here. Would be one 0:25:15.760 --> 0:25:21.320 million dollars. Oh goodness, I might actually go see those movies, right. 0:25:21.359 --> 0:25:23.679 I feel like I would be way more engaged in 0:25:23.760 --> 0:25:27.480 the lore if they just slimbed characters at moments that 0:25:27.520 --> 0:25:29.640 I was supposed to be paying attention, and then I'm like, oh, 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:32.880 I'm back, you know, yeah, I'm in I mean, Spider 0:25:32.880 --> 0:25:36.600 Man is is pretty sticky, so Spider Man also sticky. 0:25:36.760 --> 0:25:39.720 It works for me, that's why. Maybe that's why we're 0:25:39.800 --> 0:25:43.480 drawn to the Spider Man movies over the other ones. 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:47.080 Or is it because of Alfred Molina? Is dot com 0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:51.560 something to Alfred Molina could have been Harry Wormwood. He 0:25:52.240 --> 0:25:55.720 could have been Harry Wormwood. Dan Indvida doesn't a fantastic job, 0:25:55.760 --> 0:25:57.560 but I could also picture Alfred Billion in that role. 0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:00.280 At the very least, Alfred should be doing the voice her. 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:08.439 So it's a separate voice, then it's less confusing. Yeah, absolutely, Okay. 0:26:08.440 --> 0:26:12.639 So the next day, Agatha trunch Bowl played by Pam Ferris. 0:26:12.680 --> 0:26:16.720 She's the principle of Cruncham Hall Elementary School. She buys 0:26:16.760 --> 0:26:20.919 a car from Harry Wormwood and she also tells him 0:26:20.960 --> 0:26:24.360 about all the disciplinary actions she takes against children at 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:27.960 her school. So, based on this, Harry decides to send 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:33.360 Matilda to this school that looks like a prison for children. Yes, exactly. 0:26:34.280 --> 0:26:37.280 So Matilda goes to her first day of school, where 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:42.720 she meets a new friend, Lavender, and where she watches 0:26:42.800 --> 0:26:49.439 Principal trunch Bowl terrorize the small children, including flinging a 0:26:50.000 --> 0:26:54.360 tiny adorable little girl around by her pigtails and then 0:26:54.400 --> 0:26:58.440 tossing her over a fence. The practical effects in this 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:03.399 movie are very impressive and make me miss practical effects. 0:27:03.440 --> 0:27:06.680 Although it sounds like the actor who played Miss trunch 0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:11.440 Bull got extremely injured. She got injured the climactic scene. Yes, 0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:14.440 and I think that little girl not as badly injured 0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:17.720 as you might know. She got injured she like cut 0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:21.040 her finger on something, so it was not good, but 0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:26.560 that was like white. She got flug over it. Apparently 0:27:26.560 --> 0:27:30.280 it required stitches, so it wasn't like it wasn't a 0:27:30.359 --> 0:27:32.800 huge deal, but it wasn't like a no big deal 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:36.440 kind of thing. Okay, so maybe maybe I'll think on that. 0:27:37.680 --> 0:27:40.480 Apparently too, it was like the little girl who actually 0:27:40.520 --> 0:27:42.399 did all ended up doing all the stunts because they 0:27:42.400 --> 0:27:45.600 had somebody there to do stunts for her. And one 0:27:45.600 --> 0:27:49.159 thing I was reading was talking about how she loved 0:27:49.359 --> 0:27:51.680 like she was nine and like being in that harness 0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:55.440 and getting like flung around was so much fun that 0:27:55.520 --> 0:27:57.240 she was like, no, I'll do I'll I'll do my 0:27:57.240 --> 0:28:07.400 own stunts. That's a regular tom cruise. Absolutely Okay. So 0:28:07.800 --> 0:28:12.880 then Matilda meets her teacher, Miss Honey played by Mbeth David's, 0:28:12.880 --> 0:28:17.080 who is basically wearing a burlap sack because she's one 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:20.399 of the good guys and she is very sweet and nice. 0:28:21.080 --> 0:28:26.160 Huge juxtaposition against trunch Bowl. Miss Honey sees how brilliant 0:28:26.240 --> 0:28:30.720 Matilda is. For example, Matilda can multiply big numbers in 0:28:30.760 --> 0:28:34.800 her head and she's like, Wow, this student is brilliant. 0:28:34.920 --> 0:28:38.920 She goes to principal trunch Bowl and to Matilda's family 0:28:39.000 --> 0:28:43.040 to advocate for her education, but they don't want to 0:28:43.080 --> 0:28:47.200 hear about it. Then we get the cake scene where 0:28:47.680 --> 0:28:52.600 trunch Bowl makes a student named Bruce bog Trotter eat 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:58.280 an entire chocolate cake while the whole school watches and uh, 0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:03.360 we'll talk about that my nightmare night. And I was like, God, yeah, 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:07.880 well we'll We'll just have to unpack that later, Team Brucie, 0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:13.920 I know. Then trunch Bowl comes into Matilda's class, terrorizes 0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:18.080 the students as usual, and then Matilda seems to use 0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:23.720 telekinesis to fling a newt onto her then tries to 0:29:23.800 --> 0:29:28.000 demonstrate these telekinetic powers to Miss Honey, but they don't 0:29:28.200 --> 0:29:32.200 work when she's put on the spot. Then Miss Honey 0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:36.320 invites Matilda over to her house and tells this story 0:29:36.320 --> 0:29:39.880 about how her parents died when she was young and 0:29:40.080 --> 0:29:44.200 she was raised by her aunt, who is big twist, 0:29:44.960 --> 0:29:48.920 trunch bowl. I didn't see that coming, I treatly did it. Really, 0:29:49.000 --> 0:29:51.120 that's so interesting, I think because I had seen this 0:29:51.160 --> 0:29:54.320 movie so much as a kid, I'm like, oh, the 0:29:54.360 --> 0:29:57.040 big reveal, um, But like, that's pretty interesting that you 0:29:57.080 --> 0:29:59.840 didn't see it coming, Jamie, We'll have to like talk. 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:03.560 We're about sort of untrench double well not much as foreshadowed. 0:30:03.640 --> 0:30:07.720 There is like some voice over where Danny DeVito is like, 0:30:08.400 --> 0:30:11.960 Miss Honey Harbor's this dark secret, but she doesn't let 0:30:11.960 --> 0:30:15.400 it affect her love of teaching or something like that. 0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:17.840 I just thought that she had been a student of 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:20.640 Miss trench Bulls, Like I thought that they was clear 0:30:20.720 --> 0:30:22.880 that they knew each other, but I didn't. I didn't 0:30:22.880 --> 0:30:26.000 pick up on the family connection. So that was a 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:29.720 very effective whist for me. That makes a lot of 0:30:29.720 --> 0:30:31.480 sense because there is that one moment where I think 0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:33.920 Miss Honey goes to like trench Bull's office when she's like, 0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:36.160 I think Matilda might be happier in an older class, 0:30:37.080 --> 0:30:39.640 and like they're talking at that point and like trench 0:30:39.680 --> 0:30:43.360 Poles being like creepily familiar calling her like yeah, like 0:30:43.520 --> 0:30:47.200 gen and yeah, right, so that was like that was 0:30:47.240 --> 0:30:49.520 always what I thought kind of gave it away, but again, 0:30:49.560 --> 0:30:52.800 like I can't put myself in the position of like 0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:54.840 just seeing it for the first time. Now, so that's 0:30:54.880 --> 0:30:58.280 really interesting, Like yeah cool. So yeah, so we get 0:30:58.280 --> 0:31:01.560 that reveal, and then we also learn that like trunch 0:31:01.600 --> 0:31:04.920 Bull now lives in Miss Honey's childhood home and Miss 0:31:04.920 --> 0:31:07.880 Honey lives in this little cottage now, and then they 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:11.160 go to trunch Bull's house when she's not there to 0:31:11.280 --> 0:31:16.040 take back Miss Honey's childhood treasures, particularly a doll of 0:31:16.080 --> 0:31:20.760 hers Lissie doll Um, which I learned is the first 0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:24.960 name of Roll Doll's widow. Let's see is her name. Yeah, 0:31:25.240 --> 0:31:27.560 we also have to talk about Roll Doll because he's 0:31:27.560 --> 0:31:33.560 got there's there's a ton of shift on there, semitic yea. 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:37.520 His his friends, even the way his friends described him 0:31:37.520 --> 0:31:39.760 made me think he was like a man baby edge lord. 0:31:40.320 --> 0:31:43.760 Like you read things that people, Yeah, they're like, oh yeah, 0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:46.040 Roll was like my best friend for forty years, but 0:31:46.120 --> 0:31:49.800 he was terrible. You know, you're like, what like listening 0:31:49.840 --> 0:31:52.160 to it, or like reading accounts of people who knew him, 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:54.200 you're just like, Wow, I'm so glad that he wasn't 0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:57.120 alive when the Internet existed, like he would have been 0:31:57.160 --> 0:32:02.440 at Nightmare. Imagine the would have sent god, Oh my God. 0:32:03.320 --> 0:32:06.640 The opposite of Danny Devita's Twitter presence would be World 0:32:06.640 --> 0:32:13.160 Doll's Twitter presence. So then Trench Bowl comes back home 0:32:13.440 --> 0:32:15.800 when Miss Honey and Matilda are still there, and then 0:32:15.800 --> 0:32:18.080 there's this big there's this big game of like cat 0:32:18.160 --> 0:32:22.200 and mouse where she's chasing them around, and then Matilda 0:32:22.200 --> 0:32:27.240 and Miss Honey finally escape. Matilda starts to then practice 0:32:27.280 --> 0:32:30.520 her telekinesis powers, and she gets really good at them, 0:32:30.600 --> 0:32:33.280 So one night she goes back to Trench Bull's house 0:32:33.400 --> 0:32:37.880 and uses her powers to rescue Miss Honey's doll and 0:32:38.000 --> 0:32:41.760 to terrorize trench Bowl. But then trench Bull figures out 0:32:41.800 --> 0:32:45.200 that it was Matilda who did this because she finds 0:32:45.200 --> 0:32:48.160 her hair ribbon that she left behind. So then the 0:32:48.200 --> 0:32:52.120 next day at school, trench Bull tries to punish Matilda, 0:32:52.760 --> 0:32:56.680 but she again uses her powers to make Trench both 0:32:56.760 --> 0:33:01.240 think that Miss Honey's dead dad's go is haunting her 0:33:01.960 --> 0:33:05.720 dead dad, who Trunch bowl. Might have murdered, yes, might 0:33:05.800 --> 0:33:11.880 have murdered, almost certainly murdered. Probably did murder. Or it 0:33:11.960 --> 0:33:20.520 was an owl? Maybe? Okay, the staircase. We're back, We're back. Wow, 0:33:21.160 --> 0:33:23.560 Oh my gosh. Kaylin and I used to talk about 0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:27.760 the staircase on Matrian episodes for I forget why we 0:33:27.800 --> 0:33:31.720 originally started doing it. But the owl theory not the 0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:34.040 first time the owl theory has been explored on this show. 0:33:34.240 --> 0:33:38.760 And absolutely, absolutely, you know, miss trunch Ball deserves a 0:33:38.840 --> 0:33:44.240 fair trial. We shouldn't use her queerness against her. Yeah, 0:33:44.280 --> 0:33:47.400 exactly could have been an owl? Could have been an owl, 0:33:47.920 --> 0:33:52.320 would have been okay. So Matilda is terrorizing her, and 0:33:52.840 --> 0:33:56.280 then Matilda and the other students run trunch Bull out 0:33:56.280 --> 0:33:58.400 of the school, out of the town. She's never seen 0:33:58.480 --> 0:34:01.760 or heard from again, and so Miss Honey moves back 0:34:01.840 --> 0:34:06.600 into her childhood home, Matilda visits her often, and then 0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:11.479 Miss Honey adopts Matilda when her parents announced that they're 0:34:11.480 --> 0:34:13.960 moving to Guam, and Matilda's like, well, I don't want 0:34:13.960 --> 0:34:16.279 to go. I want to stay here with Miss Honey here. 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:18.800 I already have the adoption papers. All you have to 0:34:18.840 --> 0:34:20.960 do is sign them. So her parents are like sounds 0:34:20.960 --> 0:34:23.240 good to me. And then they leave and then Matilda 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:27.640 and Miss Honey live happily ever after together as a 0:34:27.719 --> 0:34:33.480 loving family, and that is the end of the movie. 0:34:33.600 --> 0:34:35.960 Let's take another quick break and then we'll come back 0:34:36.040 --> 0:34:46.640 to discuss and we're back. Wo where shall we start? 0:34:46.840 --> 0:34:50.280 There are so many places. Well, I kind of wanted 0:34:50.360 --> 0:34:53.680 to just I like to look at the film as like, 0:34:54.000 --> 0:34:57.520 what's what are his intentions? What is it doing? Since 0:34:57.600 --> 0:35:01.640 so many children's movies have some sort of like moral 0:35:01.840 --> 0:35:03.799 moral at the end of the story kind of thing. 0:35:04.640 --> 0:35:07.960 For me, I think as far as like execution, there's 0:35:08.000 --> 0:35:11.759 things to be discussed, but as far as intention, it 0:35:11.960 --> 0:35:14.440 seems to me that the message of this movie is 0:35:14.520 --> 0:35:19.880 like the celebration of a little girl reading and learning 0:35:19.920 --> 0:35:23.760 and getting an education and how important that is, and 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:26.640 how I think that's generally a really positive thing to 0:35:26.760 --> 0:35:30.160 have in a children's movie. It's a really great thing 0:35:30.280 --> 0:35:33.000 for little girls to see watching this movie, for little 0:35:33.080 --> 0:35:36.399 kids of all genders to see. I bet a lot 0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:42.120 of children saw themselves in Matilda and like appreciated her 0:35:42.160 --> 0:35:48.600 thirst for learning. So that is obviously something that's largely 0:35:48.719 --> 0:35:53.640 at play in this movie. There's some I guess baggage 0:35:53.800 --> 0:35:57.839 that comes with that, where there's like weird like kind 0:35:57.840 --> 0:36:02.160 of classism and elitisms stuff tied to this, which we 0:36:02.200 --> 0:36:05.880 can get into. But as far as like what the 0:36:05.920 --> 0:36:10.880 movie I think is trying to do, I appreciated the efforts. 0:36:10.920 --> 0:36:13.680 And I almost wish that I had grown up more 0:36:13.760 --> 0:36:16.319 with this movie and did watch it more as a kid, 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:21.000 because I think I would have benefited from the message of, like, 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:25.799 it's really important for little girls to learn and have 0:36:26.000 --> 0:36:29.240 a thirst for knowledge and a curiosity about the world. 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:33.320 I totally agree. I feel like Matilda and Harriet the 0:36:33.360 --> 0:36:35.880 Spy kind of go together in my head of like 0:36:36.040 --> 0:36:40.800 movies that have this inherent message that encouraged young kids 0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:46.280 in the nineties, uh, particularly girls, to trust their instincts 0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:49.600 to be curious too, and and that there is a 0:36:49.640 --> 0:36:54.320 purpose and meaning to like seeking knowledge and not taking 0:36:54.560 --> 0:36:58.719 you know, adults at their word, and and just a lot. 0:36:58.760 --> 0:37:02.160 I I totally agree that this movie seems to come 0:37:02.160 --> 0:37:06.279 from a very good place. And in the process, I 0:37:06.280 --> 0:37:11.359 mean like we're going to inevitably talk about uses, tropes 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:16.480 and stereotyping to get to the good place it's trying 0:37:16.520 --> 0:37:18.640 to get to. I feel we have. It's kind of 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:23.160 a rare movie in that regard where I don't feel 0:37:23.280 --> 0:37:27.799 completely like as confident in most children's media that it 0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:32.080 has such a strong core message, which makes it like, 0:37:32.320 --> 0:37:36.759 uh interesting and frustrating that it uses the tropes that 0:37:36.840 --> 0:37:40.480 it does to accomplish a good message, because it ends up, 0:37:40.520 --> 0:37:43.719 you know, kind of weighing it down in this interesting way. 0:37:43.760 --> 0:37:45.680 But I still like, I can't in good faith like 0:37:45.719 --> 0:37:48.240 write this movie off entirely, and don't think I ever could, 0:37:48.400 --> 0:37:53.080 because it's so uh it is coming from this this 0:37:53.360 --> 0:37:57.040 very beautiful, encouraging place that I think, you know, Jesse, 0:37:57.080 --> 0:37:59.560 you are alluding to this earlier like that there's still 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:02.920 not a out of movies that have core messages like 0:38:03.040 --> 0:38:06.480 this that are that are this popular in this memorable 0:38:06.520 --> 0:38:08.799 although apparently not in that I didn't realize this movie 0:38:08.840 --> 0:38:11.239 like flopped at the box office. I always assumed it 0:38:11.320 --> 0:38:13.960 was a huge hit, but it I guess it's like 0:38:14.520 --> 0:38:17.240 it was in its VHS era that it like became 0:38:17.360 --> 0:38:21.239 huge because I viewed this as like a ridiculously successful movie, 0:38:21.239 --> 0:38:24.680 which I guess it wasn't. Yeah, that's what was really surprising. Um, 0:38:24.719 --> 0:38:26.600 you know, I think that it was much more successful 0:38:26.840 --> 0:38:29.479 on a critical level perhaps and like at a box 0:38:29.520 --> 0:38:33.160 office level. Um, but but just you know, coming into it, 0:38:33.400 --> 0:38:35.399 what you're both are saying like uh, and I think 0:38:35.400 --> 0:38:37.280 Harriet the Spy is and also a really good example 0:38:37.280 --> 0:38:39.520 of this. It's also it's not just like you don't 0:38:39.560 --> 0:38:41.399 like trust your instincts and things like that, but it's 0:38:41.400 --> 0:38:45.200 also like you are the author, like you you have 0:38:45.280 --> 0:38:48.480 control in your world, you have autonomy, Like I think 0:38:48.520 --> 0:38:51.640 they're there. I mean, I don't think that even for 0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:57.040 stories that you know, are geared towards like older women 0:38:57.239 --> 0:39:01.919 or older like people of like that aren't just male, 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:03.720 like I don't think there are a lot of stories 0:39:03.800 --> 0:39:08.040 that sort of give that same sort of message of autonomy, 0:39:08.120 --> 0:39:10.080 like both in Harry the Spy in and Matilda. You know, 0:39:10.120 --> 0:39:12.799 it's sort of like these young girls who are in 0:39:12.800 --> 0:39:17.239 this position that you know, things are going on that 0:39:17.320 --> 0:39:19.640 affect them that they don't have control over, but we 0:39:19.800 --> 0:39:23.000 still see them taking steps and taking measures and like 0:39:23.320 --> 0:39:26.239 being active. And that's a little bit the thing of 0:39:26.280 --> 0:39:29.600 like when Harry yells at Matilda sort of like when 0:39:29.640 --> 0:39:32.640 a person is bad, you know, instead of saying like 0:39:32.680 --> 0:39:35.440 when a parent or when an adult is bad, and 0:39:35.520 --> 0:39:37.640 like in giving Matilda that key of sort of saying 0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:39.640 when a person is bad, he allows her to have 0:39:39.680 --> 0:39:42.200 that autonomy of sort of saying like, oh, okay, well 0:39:42.239 --> 0:39:44.439 I can then make choices. I don't have to be 0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:48.400 just passive and have things happen to me in this story, 0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:51.319 you know, like so often, you know, you guys talk 0:39:51.360 --> 0:39:52.719 about it on the show all the time, you know. 0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:56.000 We we sort of get these protagonists that like things 0:39:56.040 --> 0:39:58.440 happened to them, and then another thing happens to them, 0:39:58.480 --> 0:39:59.920 and then another thing happens to them, but they're not 0:40:00.000 --> 0:40:01.919 really choosing at any point in time. And yet here 0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:06.359 we have this story of this young girl. You know, 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:09.480 we see her from literally like being born up into 0:40:09.520 --> 0:40:12.200 the age of like six and a half, um, you know, 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:16.200 and being very very active. And I think so much 0:40:16.239 --> 0:40:18.600 of that too, you know, in terms of like how 0:40:18.640 --> 0:40:21.880 this adaptation was done, has to really do with the 0:40:21.920 --> 0:40:24.200 fact that there were like a lot of women, a 0:40:24.239 --> 0:40:27.040 lot of parents, a lot of people involved. That like 0:40:27.920 --> 0:40:32.200 we're invested in young women. That sounds like a weird 0:40:32.200 --> 0:40:34.640 way of putting it, but like both Danny DeVito and 0:40:34.719 --> 0:40:38.600 Real Pearlman, as well as Robin Spee Cord and Nicholas Kazan, 0:40:38.680 --> 0:40:41.880 who were the screen the couple who wrote the screenplay, 0:40:42.640 --> 0:40:46.640 Zoe Kazane's parents. I didn't realize. Yeah, both of both 0:40:46.680 --> 0:40:50.400 of those like both of those couples came to the 0:40:50.440 --> 0:40:53.279 book through their daughters. And I think that that like 0:40:53.880 --> 0:40:56.480 shows in the way that the film it did get 0:40:56.480 --> 0:40:58.840 adapted and the choices that were made, you know, the 0:40:58.880 --> 0:41:01.279 things that were changed. There were a lot of male 0:41:01.360 --> 0:41:03.759 characters that are in the book that don't appear in 0:41:03.760 --> 0:41:06.720 the movie. Like the majority of the cast is female. 0:41:06.840 --> 0:41:09.359 You know. It is really like this story that is 0:41:09.400 --> 0:41:14.120 like very much focused on empowering Matilda, you know, within 0:41:14.200 --> 0:41:16.440 her world. And I think that that is because you know, 0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:19.160 like I said, you know, they're coming to this story 0:41:19.719 --> 0:41:21.120 the book came out I think at the end of 0:41:21.120 --> 0:41:24.560 the eighties eight nine, you know, so they're coming to 0:41:24.800 --> 0:41:28.640 as parents themselves, being like, oh, you know, my daughters 0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:30.520 can see themselves in this book, you know, how do 0:41:30.560 --> 0:41:33.960 we recreate that? And Robin see Court is, as you 0:41:34.040 --> 0:41:36.239 probably with No. Two, was like super involved in A 0:41:36.480 --> 0:41:40.640 Little Women just before this as an adaptation. So it's 0:41:40.680 --> 0:41:43.560 like it's also you know a lot of like the 0:41:43.600 --> 0:41:46.600 feminist stuff that happened in The Little Women, you know, 0:41:46.640 --> 0:41:49.279 like that's also a little bit of her influence in there, 0:41:49.360 --> 0:41:52.800 you know, Like so I think that that's like kind 0:41:52.800 --> 0:41:55.040 of why the story ends up getting crafted that way. 0:41:55.520 --> 0:41:58.360 Mar Wilson's mom also was like a really big driving 0:41:58.360 --> 0:42:02.279 force and getting this movie made. Um because when you're 0:42:02.280 --> 0:42:04.239 a kid actor, of course, you know, it's like you 0:42:04.280 --> 0:42:07.040 have your agent and then you know your parents. Hopefully 0:42:07.040 --> 0:42:10.920 you're making decisions that are in your best interest. And 0:42:11.920 --> 0:42:15.239 Mara was starting to become like had been in a 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:19.000 couple of things and was starting to like become famous 0:42:19.120 --> 0:42:23.920 or more famous as a child performer. And they were 0:42:23.920 --> 0:42:26.759 being sent tons and tons of scripts all the time, 0:42:26.880 --> 0:42:30.920 you know, for these like cute little girl parts. Um. 0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:35.239 But Susie Wilson, her mom had Red Matilda with all 0:42:35.239 --> 0:42:39.040 of her kids, was a huge proponent of like reading 0:42:39.080 --> 0:42:42.440 the book, even like at like Mara's school, like in 0:42:42.440 --> 0:42:45.640 the library to kids and stuff like that. Um. So 0:42:45.680 --> 0:42:48.439 when this script came up, you know, it was like 0:42:49.080 --> 0:42:51.839 mar Wilson I think described as or like her mom 0:42:51.920 --> 0:42:54.080 like left on it was like this one, you know, 0:42:54.120 --> 0:42:58.080 and was like very present on set and the films 0:42:58.080 --> 0:43:01.120 dedicated to her because Unfortunately she passed away shortly after 0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:06.319 it was in prosproduction, so like she had just like 0:43:06.600 --> 0:43:09.880 such a huge effect, um, and yet she's not necessarily 0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:13.320 one of the credited names that we think of in 0:43:13.320 --> 0:43:16.600 in terms of this film. But yeah, you know, and 0:43:16.800 --> 0:43:20.040 I think that like because like, you know, as a 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:22.920 working artist, like I think a lot about the intention 0:43:22.960 --> 0:43:25.120 that goes into things when we're making things, right, Like 0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:28.640 filmmaking is is such a team sport, and I think 0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:31.759 so often, you know, we're sort of like especially since 0:43:31.760 --> 0:43:36.040 sort of like this era of like at war directors 0:43:36.080 --> 0:43:37.799 and like it's all about sort of like the person 0:43:37.840 --> 0:43:40.680 who's like got that director credit and who's at the 0:43:40.719 --> 0:43:43.680 head of it. But so often I think that there's 0:43:43.760 --> 0:43:46.160 like all these other influences that are coming into that 0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:50.160 story that are important to acknowledge, because we don't make 0:43:50.200 --> 0:43:53.680 things in a vacuum, right, So it's it's just as 0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:57.319 much about the who's introducing the idea to who are 0:43:57.320 --> 0:43:59.279 you talking about the idea with? You know, who are 0:43:59.280 --> 0:44:02.560 you who's helping you with like the design of the film, 0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:05.560 Who's you know, doing all these sort of things. Yeah, 0:44:05.640 --> 0:44:07.600 but yeah, I think I think that's sort of like 0:44:08.640 --> 0:44:10.719 Lad a pretty good groundwork for the for how the 0:44:10.760 --> 0:44:16.240 film turns out. And by all the accounts I read 0:44:16.360 --> 0:44:21.400 about the production, it seemed like everyone had a ball. 0:44:22.000 --> 0:44:28.800 Danny DeVito was an angel, good and responsible director, right, Yeah, 0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:33.240 and the kids had fun and the adult actors had fun, 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:37.880 and yeah that it was like a very pleasant experience 0:44:37.920 --> 0:44:41.240 for everyone involved as far as I could tell. Yeah, 0:44:41.400 --> 0:44:45.600 even like Jamie you mentioned pamp Ferris, who played Agatha 0:44:45.640 --> 0:44:50.279 trench Bowl, even though she had gotten injured and doing 0:44:50.280 --> 0:44:51.960 a couple of the stunts and things like that, Like 0:44:52.040 --> 0:44:55.360 she I was watching an interview which she was talking 0:44:55.360 --> 0:44:57.520 about it, and she was like, you know, I was 0:44:57.560 --> 0:44:59.000 like trying to stay away from the kids, and I 0:44:59.000 --> 0:45:01.680 was trying to like not have fun because it was 0:45:01.719 --> 0:45:03.880 like I was supposed to be there. It's like the 0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:06.440 trench Bowl in the superintimidating presence. And she was like 0:45:06.480 --> 0:45:08.120 after two or three days, like she's like, the kids 0:45:08.120 --> 0:45:09.840 would come up to me and put their like little 0:45:09.880 --> 0:45:12.360 hands in mind and I couldn't help it, like you know, 0:45:12.400 --> 0:45:14.920 would just be like totally run over and totally sweet, 0:45:15.000 --> 0:45:18.759 and like pam Feris is such a a far cry 0:45:18.800 --> 0:45:22.040 away from like the Trench Bowl it's really it's really 0:45:22.080 --> 0:45:24.680 quite funny having seen her in other work and being like, 0:45:24.719 --> 0:45:26.520 oh my god, I can't believe that's the same person. 0:45:26.920 --> 0:45:29.920 I know. I forgot that she was on Marge as 0:45:29.920 --> 0:45:34.120 well in the Harry Potter series because I feel like 0:45:34.120 --> 0:45:37.960 she we only encounter her as someone who like she's 0:45:38.320 --> 0:45:42.920 very typecast as villainous, and then yeah, we might have 0:45:42.960 --> 0:45:45.560 watched the same the same interview because I was just like, 0:45:45.880 --> 0:45:50.040 she's so sweet, Like what a her She was in 0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:54.000 Called the Midwife too, She plays us none in that 0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:59.640 and Called the Midwife is you know whatever, like it's 0:45:59.680 --> 0:46:03.880 about sisters, religious sisters who are midwives in like London 0:46:04.360 --> 0:46:07.360 around the Second World War, I think, and like, you know, 0:46:07.440 --> 0:46:10.480 spoiler alert, I guess for Called the Midwife fans, but 0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:13.440 like when her character dies on Call the Midwife, like 0:46:13.440 --> 0:46:16.040 there's people who've written entire blogs about like how crush 0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:18.880 they were about that, Like you know she is, like 0:46:19.040 --> 0:46:21.759 she is this like British character actor who's just like 0:46:21.880 --> 0:46:24.400 so beloved in so many ways. But I feel like 0:46:24.400 --> 0:46:28.040 you're in North America, were like trunch Ball, Like where 0:46:28.080 --> 0:46:31.960 do you think she knows Molina another British character actor. 0:46:32.920 --> 0:46:35.719 I want to say. I want to say, yes, yes. 0:46:35.920 --> 0:46:38.960 I wonder if they have any like overlap. Maybe they 0:46:39.000 --> 0:46:42.520 met at the theater. Who knows, could be very possible 0:46:42.680 --> 0:46:45.240 because Pam Fares has done a lot of theater. It's true. 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:48.600 I love the idea of Pam Farris, like trying to 0:46:48.640 --> 0:46:51.640 go method on set and then like that lasting for 0:46:51.680 --> 0:46:53.359 a couple of days and then she was just like 0:46:53.520 --> 0:46:56.839 so one over by all the sweet kids and she's like, well, 0:46:56.880 --> 0:47:00.600 never mind, going method is actually an incredible waste of time. 0:47:00.719 --> 0:47:06.040 Usually yeah, yeah, exactly, Like she's not leaving dead rats 0:47:06.080 --> 0:47:08.840 for like the crew to find or anything. She's just like, yeah, 0:47:08.920 --> 0:47:12.080 like they're these kids are smart, they can they can act, 0:47:12.120 --> 0:47:18.640 but that's why they're here. Um, there was a little okay, 0:47:18.719 --> 0:47:21.799 So one of the first things that jumped out to me, 0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:25.000 which is like partially based on personal experience, it's like 0:47:25.440 --> 0:47:29.839 the concept of whatever, the concept of genius is fake, 0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:33.160 and that I always think is such an interesting I 0:47:33.160 --> 0:47:35.280 almost wish that it had been phrase a little different 0:47:35.280 --> 0:47:37.720 because I think that it's phrased that way in service 0:47:37.880 --> 0:47:42.320 of saying Matilda is special. But what makes her special 0:47:42.400 --> 0:47:44.920 isn't the fact that she's a genius what makes her 0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:49.640 special is that she is compassionate and uses uses her 0:47:49.719 --> 0:47:53.720 natural abilities to help other people and to pursue justice. 0:47:53.800 --> 0:47:55.840 I feel like that, but I don't know that. I 0:47:55.880 --> 0:47:59.359 feel like I just have mensa PTSD, and so I'm 0:47:59.480 --> 0:48:03.920 just like, no, not that word genius with children. It's 0:48:04.000 --> 0:48:07.360 that's a dark road to go down. Absolutely. And Also 0:48:07.600 --> 0:48:11.480 that joke that Harry Wormwood makes about Moby Dick, I 0:48:11.560 --> 0:48:13.120 was like, that was the there are a few moments 0:48:13.160 --> 0:48:14.920 where were like, oh my gosh, that is such a 0:48:15.040 --> 0:48:18.920 nineties children's movie moment where he like kind of implied 0:48:19.000 --> 0:48:22.160 like he thinks that Moby Dick is about sex or 0:48:22.239 --> 0:48:32.600 something like what iconic bizarre children's joke from the nineties. No. Absolutely, 0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:34.800 Uh well, I mean we can talk about it. I 0:48:34.840 --> 0:48:37.520 mean I think it's interesting to sort of look at, 0:48:38.600 --> 0:48:40.560 you know, bringing up the idea of genius, bringing up 0:48:40.560 --> 0:48:42.640 sort of like the idea of exceptionalism, and how like 0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:46.239 that comes into like the class conversation that we could 0:48:46.239 --> 0:48:51.040 have in Matilda. Because I also, as much as I 0:48:51.080 --> 0:48:53.799 love and that's not even like too strong a word, 0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:57.560 as much as I love like Harry and Zenia Wormwood, like, 0:48:57.880 --> 0:49:03.400 despite their horrible nous are so like spot on the 0:49:03.440 --> 0:49:07.359 way that they're characterized is like, you know, we get 0:49:07.360 --> 0:49:09.640 that sort of first line at the very beginning where 0:49:09.680 --> 0:49:11.960 it's like they live in a nice neighborhood, they have 0:49:12.080 --> 0:49:14.319 very nice things. They're not very nice people. You know, 0:49:14.600 --> 0:49:17.680 we're set up to sort of understand them as being 0:49:17.800 --> 0:49:22.719 villainous based on their values, and when we take a 0:49:22.719 --> 0:49:25.840 look at what those values are, you know, they love money, 0:49:26.400 --> 0:49:31.359 they love consumerism, they love TV, sticky stuff, they love 0:49:31.440 --> 0:49:35.440 sticky stuff, they like, they eat, they eat micro We 0:49:35.520 --> 0:49:37.960 have dinners in front of the TV every night, like 0:49:38.040 --> 0:49:41.200 that's their family time, you know. And I feel like 0:49:41.760 --> 0:49:44.920 characterizing this like also the fact that like Harry Warmwood 0:49:44.960 --> 0:49:48.080 is like I used car salesman who's like buying and 0:49:48.120 --> 0:49:52.880 selling like stolen cars. Um. You know, I feel like 0:49:52.920 --> 0:49:57.120 if they were poor, then they'd be considered white trash, 0:49:57.280 --> 0:50:00.319 you know. And I think that like I'm I'm not 0:50:00.400 --> 0:50:02.160 entirely sure what we're supposed to take away from that, 0:50:02.239 --> 0:50:05.320 you know, because and also that characterization of white trash 0:50:05.400 --> 0:50:07.719 is like garbage, and and you know, I hope that 0:50:07.840 --> 0:50:10.359 I don't offend anybody but using that term, but like 0:50:11.520 --> 0:50:13.759 I know what you mean, but like it's sort of 0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:18.120 like this idea that even though they're you know, they 0:50:18.120 --> 0:50:22.800 have achieved a certain level of like status and wealth, 0:50:23.480 --> 0:50:27.279 they're lacking middle class of values which would make them 0:50:27.320 --> 0:50:29.799 part of like the in group of their peers, like 0:50:30.520 --> 0:50:32.799 you know, no other homes even in that neighborhood. Like 0:50:32.800 --> 0:50:34.640 when they're doing like the shot of like the car 0:50:34.680 --> 0:50:37.560 pulling and look like their home. You know, they've got 0:50:37.600 --> 0:50:42.279 like lawn ornaments and it's like very retro looking. You know. 0:50:42.360 --> 0:50:45.680 So even as the villains though they're they're placed a 0:50:45.800 --> 0:50:50.319 sort of like very outside of their peer group to say, 0:50:50.360 --> 0:50:52.720 like or like when they go to the fancy restaurant too, 0:50:53.200 --> 0:50:55.279 you know, and there's all sorts of buffoonery that kind 0:50:55.280 --> 0:50:56.920 of goes along, you know, and zinnias. They're going in 0:50:57.040 --> 0:50:59.040 like take your hat off, Like we're in a nice place, 0:50:59.080 --> 0:51:03.120 take your hat off. You know. There's this desire to 0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:09.200 be acceptable, but they perpetually miss the mark and talking 0:51:09.200 --> 0:51:11.080 about sort of like what middle class values mean in 0:51:11.080 --> 0:51:14.000 like this sort of sense, it's like hard working, self disciplined, 0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:22.960 thrift nous like honesty, white, able bodied Protestant, like respectable conformism, patriotism. Yeah, 0:51:23.000 --> 0:51:26.360 exactly patriotism. You know, they're fleeing to Guam, but the 0:51:26.440 --> 0:51:28.640 Guam is a U S territory. The FBI can get 0:51:28.680 --> 0:51:31.640 you there, like but like the yeah, like I feel 0:51:31.680 --> 0:51:34.680 like they don't know that, and like the reason that 0:51:34.719 --> 0:51:36.719 this matters, I think in the film comes back to 0:51:36.800 --> 0:51:39.399 sort of this idea of like why, you know, why 0:51:39.440 --> 0:51:41.800 are we calling Mattila a genius? Like why are we 0:51:41.840 --> 0:51:45.360 putting that out there? Like is because there's like certain 0:51:46.160 --> 0:51:50.000 like social markers, certain cues that I think we're setting 0:51:50.080 --> 0:51:52.800 up from the very beginning about like who you should 0:51:52.880 --> 0:51:55.400 like and why you should like them, and you shouldn't 0:51:55.400 --> 0:51:58.800 like the warm words because they chafe against middle class 0:51:58.880 --> 0:52:02.080 values before we even know that they are terrible people, 0:52:02.560 --> 0:52:06.000 right you know what I mean? Yeah, there's I was 0:52:06.040 --> 0:52:08.759 a little I feel like there's some dissonance with the 0:52:08.800 --> 0:52:13.960 way the Wormwoods are characterized because on one hand, you 0:52:14.680 --> 0:52:19.720 know that there villainous because they're selfish and they neglect 0:52:19.880 --> 0:52:24.920 and abuse their daughter, and Harry is very unethical in 0:52:24.920 --> 0:52:27.080 the way that he conducts his business and and of 0:52:27.200 --> 0:52:29.400 like part of his villainy there is that he is 0:52:29.480 --> 0:52:33.760 not like taking from the rich, he's taking from people 0:52:33.800 --> 0:52:37.720 who have less money than it. He's exploiting exactly. And 0:52:38.280 --> 0:52:41.359 so there's all these things that, like us watching this 0:52:41.440 --> 0:52:44.960 movie are like, yes, clear signals, clear markers that he's 0:52:45.000 --> 0:52:48.000 a villain. But then there's this other component that kind 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:51.520 of comes into this classism elitist thing, and it's like 0:52:51.760 --> 0:52:55.200 kind of education based where the movie subscribes to this 0:52:55.280 --> 0:52:58.440 thing where people who are highly educated and who have 0:52:58.600 --> 0:53:03.000 a job that requires a lot of education equals good. Um. 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:06.680 This is most clearly demonstrated with miss Honey with her 0:53:06.760 --> 0:53:09.640 kind of job and position and her just sort of 0:53:10.360 --> 0:53:13.720 valuing getting in education, getting in higher education. She even 0:53:13.760 --> 0:53:15.880 has this little monologue where she's like, you know, if 0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:18.200 you were to get sick, the doctor you go to 0:53:18.280 --> 0:53:21.400 would have gone to college. If you get sued for 0:53:21.440 --> 0:53:25.400 selling a faulty car, the lawyer you hire would have 0:53:25.440 --> 0:53:29.400 gone to college. A k A like quote unquote important 0:53:29.440 --> 0:53:34.000 people with quote unquote important jobs go to college versus 0:53:34.520 --> 0:53:37.200 people who don't go to college and who have a 0:53:37.280 --> 0:53:41.640 job that does not require college education equals bad according 0:53:41.680 --> 0:53:44.920 to the movie, such as Matilda's parents, Like again, her 0:53:45.000 --> 0:53:48.160 dad is like a car salesman who says he didn't 0:53:48.160 --> 0:53:50.719 go to college. Her mother plays bingo all day. She 0:53:50.760 --> 0:53:54.120 says she didn't go to college. Um, there's the lunch 0:53:54.200 --> 0:53:57.040 lady who is presented in such a way, and she 0:53:57.080 --> 0:53:58.600 has such a small part in the movie, but she's 0:53:58.640 --> 0:54:01.240 presented in such a way that like the movie wants 0:54:01.239 --> 0:54:06.040 you to think she's grotesque because she's working class person, 0:54:06.400 --> 0:54:11.200 working class older woman. Like, yeah, and this movie has 0:54:11.280 --> 0:54:15.680 an issue with older women. That will get to write 0:54:16.360 --> 0:54:20.000 the exception here is miss trunch Bull, who would have 0:54:20.080 --> 0:54:23.560 to be highly educated to be a school principle. But 0:54:23.880 --> 0:54:28.600 in theory, I don't understand how she takes over cruncham Hall, 0:54:28.920 --> 0:54:32.440 Like I think that that's like specifically vague, like, but 0:54:32.600 --> 0:54:37.560 because she the way she conducts her professional life, she 0:54:37.640 --> 0:54:40.759 doesn't seem to care about education. She does not even 0:54:40.800 --> 0:54:43.120 though she's a principal of the school. She's more concerned 0:54:43.120 --> 0:54:48.200 about abusing children and terrorizing children then she is about 0:54:48.440 --> 0:54:51.400 children having an education. So the movie subscribed to this 0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:53.680 thing where it's like if you see the value in education, 0:54:53.880 --> 0:54:57.719 which like kind of in theory or just like inherently 0:54:57.800 --> 0:55:01.920 like obviously education is good in learning things is good, 0:55:01.960 --> 0:55:04.200 but this idea that like you have to go to 0:55:04.320 --> 0:55:09.799 college to be worth anything is classist and elitist and 0:55:09.800 --> 0:55:13.319 and and it would be somewhat not completely at all, 0:55:13.360 --> 0:55:15.160 but it would be a somewhat of a different discussion 0:55:15.239 --> 0:55:20.239 if the concept of higher education weren't inherently tied to money, right, 0:55:20.360 --> 0:55:23.440 and tied to class and and there are all these 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:27.000 I mean well documented, we can't possibly cover them all here, 0:55:27.040 --> 0:55:31.279 but issues with access to higher education and who it's 0:55:31.280 --> 0:55:34.520 available to versus who it isn't And so yeah, I 0:55:34.800 --> 0:55:38.279 kind of like it's so cooked into the story that 0:55:38.400 --> 0:55:40.319 I can't I couldn't really think of a way to 0:55:40.480 --> 0:55:43.879 fully remove it. By I thought it was like, it's 0:55:43.960 --> 0:55:47.800 such an important choice in terms of the movie working 0:55:48.160 --> 0:55:50.680 where I feel like a lot of the classism and 0:55:50.719 --> 0:55:53.560 elitism could have been removed from me if that idea 0:55:53.680 --> 0:55:57.080 was just sort of simplified to like in curiosity about 0:55:57.120 --> 0:56:00.200 the world around totally. But because they take get a 0:56:00.239 --> 0:56:02.840 step further and say that if you do not pursue 0:56:02.960 --> 0:56:06.400 higher education or if you're not highly educated, you must 0:56:06.440 --> 0:56:14.400 be an incurious villain that like like evil, right, abusive, etcetera. Absolutely, 0:56:14.400 --> 0:56:17.560 which it would have satisfied me if the Wormwood parents 0:56:17.760 --> 0:56:21.840 were just incurious people. But it isn't it. It's tied 0:56:21.880 --> 0:56:24.839 to class and it's tied to I think it's going 0:56:24.840 --> 0:56:26.759 back to what you were saying just about how they're 0:56:26.800 --> 0:56:31.120 kind of characterized as visually as like quote unquote white trash. 0:56:31.800 --> 0:56:35.360 It seems like their intellectual in curiosity is tied to class, 0:56:35.560 --> 0:56:38.600 it's tied to their appearance, and it's saying people like this, 0:56:39.480 --> 0:56:41.640 you know, people like this aren't worth as much as 0:56:41.640 --> 0:56:44.080 people like you know, miss Honey. And I think the 0:56:44.120 --> 0:56:47.960 visual language of the film can't be you know, overlooked 0:56:48.000 --> 0:56:49.920 because it is it is a children's film, you know, 0:56:49.960 --> 0:56:51.680 so there is like a lot of simplification of the 0:56:51.760 --> 0:56:54.800 narrative that ends up being transmitted on a visual level, 0:56:54.880 --> 0:56:59.960 because you know, it's sometimes it's easier to communicate those ideas, 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:02.560 is of like you know, this is you know good 0:57:02.600 --> 0:57:05.040 and this is bad. That's also you know, like a 0:57:05.600 --> 0:57:07.080 in Kately you can probably speak to this from like 0:57:07.080 --> 0:57:09.200 a screenwriting level. You know, you have to have tension 0:57:09.239 --> 0:57:11.279 in script, you have to have like the white hat 0:57:11.360 --> 0:57:14.520 and the black hat. You know. Like but I think 0:57:14.760 --> 0:57:17.160 the way that people are stylized in this film, you know, 0:57:17.400 --> 0:57:19.560 and even just to talk about fatness a little bit 0:57:19.560 --> 0:57:22.520 which which I'm sure we'll get to, but yeah, it's 0:57:22.520 --> 0:57:25.160 relying on really really tired tropes, you know, like and 0:57:25.440 --> 0:57:26.880 we made the joke sort of about like, you know, 0:57:27.400 --> 0:57:29.440 where his pages the whole movie she's wearing essentially like 0:57:29.480 --> 0:57:32.919 a potato sack um. You know. In the book, there's 0:57:32.920 --> 0:57:35.120 a lot more context given around that, about the fact 0:57:35.160 --> 0:57:38.720 that like Ms. Trench Puple is like garnishing her wages 0:57:39.720 --> 0:57:41.840 and that she's actually quite poor and that's why she's 0:57:41.880 --> 0:57:45.000 living in a farmer's shed. You know. The cottage that 0:57:45.040 --> 0:57:47.520 we see in the film is quite lovely, like I 0:57:47.560 --> 0:57:49.960 would love to live in that little cottage, full on 0:57:50.080 --> 0:57:55.720 like Instagram cottage, like yeah, you know, it's gorgeous. Um. 0:57:55.760 --> 0:57:58.200 But like in the book, she's living in a farmer's 0:57:58.240 --> 0:58:00.280 shed for a dollar a week or like a hound 0:58:00.280 --> 0:58:04.080 a week, because of course she works at trench Ball School, 0:58:04.120 --> 0:58:06.560 so trench Ball controls how much money she gets paid, 0:58:07.600 --> 0:58:10.200 and so she's you know, so there's like there is 0:58:10.240 --> 0:58:13.240 like a you know, if her parents was very plain 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:15.680 in terms of like the book, it was, you know, 0:58:15.720 --> 0:58:17.800 it was kind of explained by that, you know, by 0:58:17.800 --> 0:58:20.080 the fact that she didn't have access to fund where 0:58:20.080 --> 0:58:22.919 we don't get that context in the film. So Miss 0:58:22.920 --> 0:58:26.680 Honey is just presented as like this paradigm of like goodness, 0:58:27.160 --> 0:58:30.200 and it's like she's well educated, she comes from an 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:35.000 affluent background. You know, she's soft spoken, she's feminine, she's 0:58:35.080 --> 0:58:37.760 you know, and and and you know, this isn't not 0:58:37.760 --> 0:58:40.560 not to dismiss that character, because I think Miss Honey, 0:58:41.040 --> 0:58:42.840 as we talked about a little bit earlier, you know, 0:58:43.320 --> 0:58:46.440 plays this really important role you know, in her liberation 0:58:47.680 --> 0:58:51.120 is part of Matilda's story as well. Um, and also 0:58:51.160 --> 0:58:53.680 the way that she relates her own experiences with trauma 0:58:53.680 --> 0:58:56.720 and abuse to Matilda. I think it is very critical 0:58:56.760 --> 0:58:59.880 to helping Matilda. But yeah, like we're sort of you 0:58:59.920 --> 0:59:03.200 know that moment where um, she's sitting in the Warmon's 0:59:03.200 --> 0:59:06.000 living room and she's giving them that that speech about education, 0:59:06.720 --> 0:59:09.800 and they you know, like I think Zenia has like 0:59:09.840 --> 0:59:13.600 curlers in and like Harry's like he's trying to redye 0:59:13.680 --> 0:59:17.720 his hair after it's been bleached and they're watching a 0:59:17.800 --> 0:59:21.760 fight on t you know what. It was iconic, but 0:59:22.240 --> 0:59:25.760 you know, like there's this very stark contrast. Again, she's 0:59:25.800 --> 0:59:28.640 like a thing that's out of place right in the 0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:31.520 Wormwood setting the same way that like, Matilda is out 0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:34.200 of place in that setting, but it's I think that 0:59:34.240 --> 0:59:38.720 it's made less stark because of of who Misshoney is. Yeah, 0:59:38.800 --> 0:59:43.760 and there's a line of dialogue from Matilda's mom that 0:59:44.200 --> 0:59:48.080 I feel like could effectively transition us into the conversation 0:59:48.160 --> 0:59:53.840 about appearance and fatness and femininity and and that kind 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:57.200 of stuff, where her mom says, a girl does not 0:59:57.240 --> 1:00:00.880 get anywhere by acting intelligent. You cho those books, she's 1:00:00.880 --> 1:00:05.080 talking to, Miss Honey, You chose books. I chose looks. 1:00:05.200 --> 1:00:08.960 So let's talk about the way people look and like. 1:00:09.080 --> 1:00:11.360 And as Zennia is saying that though we're supposed to 1:00:11.400 --> 1:00:14.440 be laughing because we can see how Zenia looks, you know, 1:00:14.520 --> 1:00:17.480 and like. And there's a couple of moments like that 1:00:17.520 --> 1:00:20.320 in the film specifically about looks like. There's another line 1:00:20.400 --> 1:00:22.280 trunch Bull says at one point, you know, like I 1:00:22.320 --> 1:00:24.560 can take a joke as well as the next fat 1:00:24.600 --> 1:00:28.480 person from where we're supposed to be, where we're we're 1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:31.680 supposed to be laughing at the character and not with 1:00:31.720 --> 1:00:35.120 them specifically, right, Yeah, I mean, Caitlin, you were alluding 1:00:35.120 --> 1:00:37.880 to this a couple of minutes ago, but how or 1:00:37.920 --> 1:00:43.120 maybe maybe as you just how appearance is so emphasized 1:00:43.120 --> 1:00:47.520 in children's media because of the audience and how like 1:00:47.600 --> 1:00:51.760 it these very deliberate choices really make a big difference 1:00:51.880 --> 1:00:56.400 in just forming children's views of the world. And so 1:00:56.480 --> 1:01:00.800 you can see and really all of roll dolls work. 1:01:01.120 --> 1:01:05.640 And just an aside, their Roldal not just a deeply 1:01:05.720 --> 1:01:10.920 unpleasant person, but a deeply anti Semitic person, very pro vaccines, 1:01:11.200 --> 1:01:15.560 So I guess that's good, but certainly very like but 1:01:15.680 --> 1:01:20.920 also like hugely misogynistic as well, like uh, incredibly racist. 1:01:21.040 --> 1:01:24.200 Like if we're going to dive into roldlf for for 1:01:24.240 --> 1:01:26.560 a moment, like, yeah, I think we should because it's like, 1:01:26.600 --> 1:01:31.240 I mean, his views are subtly accessible here, I think absolutely, 1:01:31.320 --> 1:01:34.080 and and like and I think that it's important context 1:01:34.400 --> 1:01:37.960 to like have this information in terms of even looking 1:01:38.000 --> 1:01:40.680 at like other of his works that have been adapted, 1:01:41.600 --> 1:01:43.280 you know, because he's looked at us being this really 1:01:43.320 --> 1:01:46.800 beloved children's author, you know, like he's on all these 1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:51.000 lists of like you know, most beloved UK children's authors 1:01:51.000 --> 1:01:53.240 of all time, you know, like most beloved this and 1:01:53.400 --> 1:01:56.120 that and the other thing. And yet yeah, he's a 1:01:56.200 --> 1:02:00.880 highly unpleasant person, incredibly anti semitic, incredibly misogynist. He also 1:02:00.920 --> 1:02:05.840 wrote pornographic books for adults, whoa I did not know this? Yeah, 1:02:05.920 --> 1:02:07.720 did you even know? That's like I feel like I 1:02:07.720 --> 1:02:09.560 remember I learned that when I was a teenager, and 1:02:09.600 --> 1:02:14.040 I was like wow, yeah, him and Shel Silverstein were 1:02:14.080 --> 1:02:17.320 like writing making mint, like writing like books for kids, 1:02:17.320 --> 1:02:19.640 and but also writing a lot of like pornographic books 1:02:19.640 --> 1:02:23.160 for atuts. Interesting. Yeah, and there's nothing with writing pornography, 1:02:23.520 --> 1:02:26.400 like right now, you know, like there's nothing writing wrong 1:02:26.440 --> 1:02:30.080 with writing erotica. It's a good way of expressing your 1:02:30.080 --> 1:02:33.960 creativity and horny nous. But um, I write it via 1:02:34.000 --> 1:02:37.400 text message to people all the time. You know what 1:02:37.960 --> 1:02:42.640 text messages are kind of like the new one pages 1:02:43.080 --> 1:02:46.200 or like single sheets sexting what is a sext but 1:02:46.560 --> 1:02:51.040 a logline for a film it is, It's like an 1:02:51.040 --> 1:02:58.360 elevator pitch. It's like, hey, these out yeah, you know, 1:02:58.480 --> 1:03:00.480 and and and like you know, people used to write 1:03:00.480 --> 1:03:04.080 love letters. Sex thing is just like today's love letter, 1:03:04.320 --> 1:03:07.680 you know. But like yeah, just just the fact that 1:03:07.720 --> 1:03:13.919 like even people who have read his like erotica are like, yeah, 1:03:13.960 --> 1:03:17.240 like it's this is very misogynistic. I mean, that's a 1:03:17.240 --> 1:03:19.800 good that's a good indicator because there's a lot of 1:03:19.880 --> 1:03:23.000 you know, and his I mean, his racism like is 1:03:23.280 --> 1:03:27.840 present in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory repeatedly, like the 1:03:27.960 --> 1:03:32.000 characters of the Upa Lumpas are deeply rooted in his 1:03:32.120 --> 1:03:35.720 own racism. And there's I think that other examples in 1:03:35.760 --> 1:03:38.840 his work were it's so as we're talking about this, 1:03:38.920 --> 1:03:41.640 it reminds me of the conversation that was taking place 1:03:41.680 --> 1:03:45.200 around Dr seuss work last year as well, where it's 1:03:45.240 --> 1:03:49.560 like there are all of these men, like men who 1:03:49.600 --> 1:03:53.360 wrote children's books and are deeply influential and there and 1:03:53.400 --> 1:03:56.920 I mean and also not men, because we can bring J. K. 1:03:57.080 --> 1:04:00.640 Rowling into that conversation as well, where you know, on 1:04:00.680 --> 1:04:05.520 a closer look, not only where their politics got awful 1:04:05.720 --> 1:04:11.160 and their prejudices god awful, it is also present in 1:04:11.280 --> 1:04:14.360 their work in ways that it are like hard to 1:04:14.480 --> 1:04:18.320 kind of grapple with. Yeah, it doesn't seem like there's 1:04:18.320 --> 1:04:21.480 been quite as bit a conversation around role Dal. I 1:04:21.520 --> 1:04:24.080 don't know why that is. Yeah, maybe because he's dead, 1:04:24.160 --> 1:04:27.120 I don't know. I mean, and it's very interesting to 1:04:27.120 --> 1:04:29.760 look at because I think that like oftentimes, when you know, 1:04:29.760 --> 1:04:32.280 when we talked to about like yeah, like like rolled 1:04:32.320 --> 1:04:35.800 as a really excellent example, we haven't really he hasn't 1:04:35.800 --> 1:04:37.920 really had like his reckoning sort of, I guess in 1:04:38.000 --> 1:04:40.520 terms of like social media. But I think it's because 1:04:40.560 --> 1:04:45.280 a lot of people don't really know, I guess about 1:04:45.320 --> 1:04:49.280 his anti semitism and like misogyny and racism or like, 1:04:50.000 --> 1:04:51.680 you know, it always comes back to this thing, you 1:04:51.680 --> 1:04:54.320 know when I talk about this a lot, because oftentimes 1:04:54.360 --> 1:04:57.640 people will be like, as like an indigoud person, people 1:04:57.680 --> 1:04:59.280 will be like, oh, yeah, well it was okay that 1:04:59.320 --> 1:05:03.040 we like treated Indians like we did at such and 1:05:03.080 --> 1:05:04.920 such a time, because you know, that was just the culture. 1:05:04.960 --> 1:05:09.960 And unfortunately that's always patently wrong. You know, like when 1:05:10.360 --> 1:05:14.040 there is discrimination and prejudice and bigotry, you know that 1:05:14.240 --> 1:05:17.320 is happening at any point in time. It's not so 1:05:17.400 --> 1:05:20.760 much that that was the culture as the powers that 1:05:20.880 --> 1:05:23.479 be within the culture, like us as individuals, were willing 1:05:23.520 --> 1:05:25.960 to permit it because it wasn't going to lose as 1:05:26.040 --> 1:05:30.200 social capital. You know, we knew, we knew when like 1:05:30.280 --> 1:05:33.040 Song of the South came out in the forties that 1:05:33.080 --> 1:05:37.880 it was incredibly racist film, you know, but we weren't 1:05:38.440 --> 1:05:42.000 we as in like white and white passing people weren't 1:05:42.040 --> 1:05:45.560 willing to get up in arms enough about it until 1:05:45.680 --> 1:05:49.000 it was like Disney plus, like it was like, oh, 1:05:49.080 --> 1:05:50.400 and you know, we're going to keep this one in 1:05:50.480 --> 1:05:52.479 the Disney vault. And then people were like, oh, yeah, 1:05:52.600 --> 1:05:55.800 that was a really racist filment. Was like, but we 1:05:55.880 --> 1:05:58.680 knew that at the time, you know, we we know, 1:05:58.960 --> 1:06:00.560 we know that kind of stuff at time, and we 1:06:00.680 --> 1:06:02.880 and we still sort of like let it go anyway, 1:06:02.920 --> 1:06:05.439 you know. And I think that we have to sort 1:06:05.480 --> 1:06:07.720 of understand it much more in a human level as 1:06:07.720 --> 1:06:09.480 opposed to sort of being like, oh, well that was 1:06:09.520 --> 1:06:12.160 just okay at the time. It's like, no, we made 1:06:12.160 --> 1:06:14.440 it okay, you know, and the same thing was rolled out. 1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:17.360 I feel like there are people, you know, as much 1:06:17.360 --> 1:06:20.320 as like what he said. It's horrendous and I don't 1:06:20.320 --> 1:06:23.200 want to repeat something anti semitic marks that he made, 1:06:23.200 --> 1:06:25.280 you know, here, I think there were a lot of 1:06:25.280 --> 1:06:28.320 people who probably agreed with him, or at least like 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:33.800 didn't disagree strongly, you know, or we're just complicit. I mean, yeah, 1:06:33.960 --> 1:06:40.440 intolerance has been tolerated for much of I mean, people 1:06:40.640 --> 1:06:43.400 called out D W. Griffith's Birth of a Nation in 1:06:43.560 --> 1:06:47.520 nineteen fifteen for being racist when it was coming out. Yeah, 1:06:47.560 --> 1:06:49.920 but like not enough people took him to task, and 1:06:49.960 --> 1:06:53.880 then he just kept making movies. And yeah, so I 1:06:53.880 --> 1:06:56.400 think that I mean, what what what you just said 1:06:56.400 --> 1:07:00.440 that's so beautifully of inherently tying it to social capital 1:07:01.000 --> 1:07:05.120 does seem to be the big thing where it's like, yeah, 1:07:05.160 --> 1:07:08.680 people are not like people didn't just wake up to 1:07:08.720 --> 1:07:11.600 the injustices of the world five or six years ago, 1:07:11.640 --> 1:07:16.160 which I feel like is sometimes how it's characterized. Obviously 1:07:16.200 --> 1:07:19.240 that's not true. But now, I mean, at least at 1:07:19.240 --> 1:07:23.000 present in some cases, still not all cases, there is 1:07:23.040 --> 1:07:28.880 a risk of losing social capital if you are intolerant publicly. Yeah. Yeah, 1:07:29.160 --> 1:07:32.000 so people who perhaps in another setting would have been 1:07:32.040 --> 1:07:36.200 apathetic or ambiguous, you know, do feel perhaps a little 1:07:36.240 --> 1:07:43.080 bit more pushed to at least not comment or or 1:07:42.960 --> 1:07:44.360 or or to do so like in a in a 1:07:44.440 --> 1:07:46.760 very like in a way that's not going to lose 1:07:46.760 --> 1:07:49.360 some social capital. And like I'm not trying to like 1:07:49.720 --> 1:07:51.680 point any fingers with that, Like I said, like, I 1:07:51.680 --> 1:07:53.520 think that it's important that we understand it on a 1:07:53.600 --> 1:07:57.560 human level and that also means like for ourselves. Um, 1:07:57.560 --> 1:08:02.560 you know, even though I grew up knowing that like 1:08:02.640 --> 1:08:06.920 my grandmother was Magma, I was also taught like some 1:08:06.960 --> 1:08:10.000 pretty horrendous shitty stuff about Native people through like the 1:08:10.120 --> 1:08:15.160 education system. And I definitely have like funked up in 1:08:15.240 --> 1:08:18.960 racist when racism like is applicable like to other groups 1:08:18.960 --> 1:08:21.360 and other situations that I am not like directly a 1:08:21.400 --> 1:08:25.120 part of, like, but like you take responsibility for that 1:08:25.200 --> 1:08:26.800 and then you try and do the best that you can. 1:08:27.760 --> 1:08:31.160 But this podcast is not about me. Let's get sticky. 1:08:32.560 --> 1:08:37.160 Let's get sticky. Let's get sticky. The last thing I 1:08:37.160 --> 1:08:40.519 wanted to say about Role Doll and then let's get 1:08:40.560 --> 1:08:43.200 the funk out of Rolled doll Land because it is 1:08:43.240 --> 1:08:46.360 so depressing. There the last thing, and I think this 1:08:46.920 --> 1:08:52.440 ties to social capital and capital capital is I didn't 1:08:52.479 --> 1:08:56.680 This news went right over my head. But in December 1:08:56.720 --> 1:09:03.679 of Roll Dolls Family only, slash Estate issued an apology 1:09:03.720 --> 1:09:07.080 for his anti Semitic comments. I think it's very interesting 1:09:07.080 --> 1:09:10.879 that they only chose to like thirty years after it happened. 1:09:12.040 --> 1:09:15.320 First of all, waited thirty years, which many I mean, 1:09:15.360 --> 1:09:19.960 it sounds like there were many Jewish groups that said, like, okay, cool, 1:09:20.040 --> 1:09:24.679 but why the thirty years And what I think that 1:09:24.680 --> 1:09:26.960 that is inherently tied to is the conversation that was 1:09:27.000 --> 1:09:29.599 taking a place around Dr Seuss around that same time. 1:09:30.000 --> 1:09:32.920 There is kind of I mean, and while I want 1:09:33.040 --> 1:09:35.320 to believe, and I have no reason to not believe 1:09:35.400 --> 1:09:39.040 that Roll Dolls descendants do not hold the anti Semitic 1:09:39.640 --> 1:09:43.599 feelings that their grandfather did, it doesn't feel it comes 1:09:43.600 --> 1:09:46.839 off as very disingenuous because it feels like damage control 1:09:46.920 --> 1:09:51.479 because the Roll Doll estate received reportedly potentially as much 1:09:51.520 --> 1:09:56.760 as one billion dollars from Netflix to license his catalog 1:09:56.880 --> 1:10:00.360 to adapt over the next you know, decade or or 1:10:00.360 --> 1:10:04.840 whatever it is. So it's you know, it's it's like, okay, 1:10:04.960 --> 1:10:09.000 that is Situations like that are so are so frustrating 1:10:09.080 --> 1:10:14.240 because of course, an acknowledgement of the inherent harm that 1:10:14.360 --> 1:10:18.920 those comments made towards the Jewish community like that absolutely 1:10:19.000 --> 1:10:21.400 is worth saying. But it doesn't feel like it's being 1:10:21.439 --> 1:10:23.280 done for the right reasons at all. It sounds like 1:10:23.320 --> 1:10:26.240 it's to preserve the Estates capital and I feel like 1:10:26.240 --> 1:10:28.640 we're seeing a lot of that right now, and I 1:10:28.680 --> 1:10:34.680 don't It's it's like I don't know what alternative to suggest, 1:10:35.040 --> 1:10:38.240 Like I'm not unhappy that the estate is acknowledging it, 1:10:38.320 --> 1:10:41.240 but it just doesn't. And also I was like, but 1:10:41.320 --> 1:10:46.519 what about the misogyny and the racism not that. No, no, 1:10:46.640 --> 1:10:48.960 we're not gonna we're not gonna talk about that, Jamie, 1:10:49.479 --> 1:10:52.759 like one issue at a time. Well, we'll circle back 1:10:53.280 --> 1:10:55.519 until we get threatened for something else. And no, and 1:10:55.520 --> 1:10:57.400 and and you're you're totally right, you know what, You're 1:10:57.400 --> 1:11:01.120 totally right. And it's sort of like, actually, like looking 1:11:01.160 --> 1:11:03.479 at what this film is about and about having a 1:11:03.520 --> 1:11:06.280 sense of justice, and how about like standing up for 1:11:06.320 --> 1:11:08.120 what you believe in and sending up for people you 1:11:08.160 --> 1:11:13.320 care about on the one hand, and then on the 1:11:13.320 --> 1:11:19.080 other hand, being a total and absolute corporate chill like 1:11:19.760 --> 1:11:22.840 and I mean, you know, allegedly allegedly allegedly, I guess, 1:11:22.920 --> 1:11:25.719 like I don't have any kind of association with adult family. 1:11:25.760 --> 1:11:29.160 I'm sure they're all lovely, you know, we're not trying 1:11:29.200 --> 1:11:33.800 to tire them all with the same cancel of the dolls. No, no, 1:11:34.680 --> 1:11:37.000 but yeah, but it's it's I think that like I 1:11:37.000 --> 1:11:40.480 would encourage people to be very to be very skeptical 1:11:41.160 --> 1:11:44.280 when these kind of moves happen because of what's going 1:11:44.280 --> 1:11:47.760 on behind it, you know, and like they're getting reportedly 1:11:47.800 --> 1:11:51.439 a billion dollars from Netflix, but like Roldal also already 1:11:51.439 --> 1:11:55.400 came from a very affluent family. They have had this 1:11:55.560 --> 1:11:59.200 like very successful publishing arm you know, of his estate 1:11:59.240 --> 1:12:01.960 as well. It's also like a billion dollars going to 1:12:02.120 --> 1:12:06.240 people who are not or either you know, like like 1:12:06.400 --> 1:12:09.040 that's the thing too with like these these literary adaptations, 1:12:09.080 --> 1:12:12.840 like like something to keep in mind as well, is that, like, oh, yeah, 1:12:12.880 --> 1:12:15.120 I know, it's nice that like the books that we 1:12:15.160 --> 1:12:17.200 love as children are being adapted and things like that. 1:12:17.280 --> 1:12:19.880 But like if it's just like more money going into 1:12:19.920 --> 1:12:22.280 line the pockets of people who are already wealthy, why 1:12:22.280 --> 1:12:25.200 not go to an independent bookstore? Like why not take 1:12:25.240 --> 1:12:27.760 a chance on like a first time author, you know, 1:12:27.880 --> 1:12:32.439 of color? Why? Right? Why why invest so much money 1:12:32.840 --> 1:12:38.960 in adapting books by a misogynist, racist, anti semi and 1:12:39.120 --> 1:12:42.719 instead invest that like not and this isn't the point, 1:12:42.760 --> 1:12:45.559 but like that have also been at that have already 1:12:45.560 --> 1:12:48.439 been already been adapted to death. Are you, like, do 1:12:48.479 --> 1:12:50.480 you really think you're going to make a better Matilda 1:12:50.520 --> 1:12:55.360 than this? You probably not like that. So sorry, sorry 1:12:55.400 --> 1:12:59.920 to derail the conversation around um visual representations. I just 1:13:00.040 --> 1:13:02.840 think that, yeah, that Royal Doll's background is important to 1:13:03.479 --> 1:13:08.960 prejudices are important to understand and leading with that discussion, right, 1:13:09.040 --> 1:13:13.040 so let's talk about yeah, because his I mean, his misogyny. 1:13:13.040 --> 1:13:15.760 Although I mean, to be fair, I don't think I 1:13:15.800 --> 1:13:18.560 read this book. I read a few other Royal Dolls 1:13:18.600 --> 1:13:21.120 books as a kid, but I don't think I did 1:13:21.120 --> 1:13:23.160 read Matilda. So I'm not sure how much of this 1:13:23.320 --> 1:13:27.040 is cannon to the book and adapted from that, or 1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:32.680 if it's more cinematic like adaptation choices. But what we 1:13:32.840 --> 1:13:37.800 see here similar to the like higher education people equals good, 1:13:38.280 --> 1:13:40.720 people who have not gone to college equals bad. We 1:13:40.800 --> 1:13:44.240 have a and this is worth unpacking because I'm gonna 1:13:44.320 --> 1:13:47.519 kind of probably oversimplify this here just to start with, 1:13:47.600 --> 1:13:51.920 but there's this idea of like women and like female 1:13:51.960 --> 1:13:57.040 presenting characters with more feminine features slash like who more 1:13:57.120 --> 1:14:01.400 closely adhere to Western beauty standard thin women. I mean, 1:14:01.600 --> 1:14:06.920 then like thinness is virtue equals nice and good, which 1:14:06.960 --> 1:14:11.800 again is embodied in the Miss Honey character predominantly, and 1:14:11.840 --> 1:14:17.040 then women with more masculine features slash women who don't 1:14:17.080 --> 1:14:23.360 adhere to Western beauty standards equals mean evil, bad, embodied 1:14:23.360 --> 1:14:27.120 by principal trench Bowl. Um. I think there's also a 1:14:27.160 --> 1:14:30.040 conversation to be had about how that character is possibly 1:14:30.080 --> 1:14:38.920 another example of a queer coded villain. Yeah yeah, so yeah, yeah, 1:14:40.360 --> 1:14:44.320 I mean, I know, butches that in the right light, 1:14:44.320 --> 1:14:47.800 you're like full trunch bowl. I would even argue that 1:14:47.880 --> 1:14:52.280 the name trunch Bowl is like homophobic, like you know what, 1:14:52.560 --> 1:14:58.160 like come on, like, how are some slack god? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, no, 1:14:58.200 --> 1:15:01.120 so trunch trunch Bull is definitely a queer coded villain. 1:15:01.280 --> 1:15:05.599 I mean, whatever with Gator, But like honestly, you see 1:15:05.640 --> 1:15:08.720 the trench Ball and you're like, Okay, you know, I 1:15:08.760 --> 1:15:11.439 know what's going on. And what's so sad about that 1:15:11.520 --> 1:15:14.080 in so many ways is the fact that, like one, 1:15:14.800 --> 1:15:18.559 this idea of creating queer villains is not a new idea, 1:15:18.800 --> 1:15:22.519 you know, like this is like Disney playbook, you know, 1:15:22.600 --> 1:15:25.080 this is something that we've been doing in popular media 1:15:25.120 --> 1:15:28.000 for a really really long time. Um. And I think 1:15:28.040 --> 1:15:30.599 that like in the unfortunate case of Miss trench Ball, 1:15:30.720 --> 1:15:32.639 and again, like I feel like I'm in this episode 1:15:32.640 --> 1:15:34.559 I'm coming across like I sympathize with the villains a 1:15:34.560 --> 1:15:38.000 lot in this piece, and I really like, maybe that's 1:15:38.000 --> 1:15:40.519 like some of my own issues and empathy or whatever, 1:15:40.560 --> 1:15:43.120 but like, I really feel bad in some ways for 1:15:43.200 --> 1:15:44.960 the way that like miss trench Balls represented because I 1:15:44.960 --> 1:15:48.080 think that she's mothered not only in the masculinity of 1:15:48.080 --> 1:15:52.120 her body, so to say things like they intentionally darkened 1:15:52.520 --> 1:15:56.080 Pam Ferris is like mustache as an example, you know, 1:15:56.080 --> 1:15:59.240 when they put her in this very boxy outfit and 1:15:59.520 --> 1:16:01.519 they give her like a false end of her nose 1:16:01.600 --> 1:16:05.080 to make her nose more prominent, and they did all 1:16:05.120 --> 1:16:08.040 these things to make to make her appear more masculine 1:16:08.080 --> 1:16:11.880 on purpose, and like that, plus her size sort of 1:16:11.920 --> 1:16:15.280 like takes her out of this realm of femininity and 1:16:15.360 --> 1:16:17.639 like her in her kind of interest too, as far 1:16:17.680 --> 1:16:20.840 as like Olympic shot pudding and like right, which is 1:16:20.840 --> 1:16:25.120 like extremely fucking cool. Yeah yeah, And if you look 1:16:25.160 --> 1:16:28.760 at the athletes that perform in those those uh that 1:16:28.840 --> 1:16:33.120 perform that perform it's not a performance. If you look 1:16:33.120 --> 1:16:36.599 at the athletes that compete in those categories, they're built 1:16:36.640 --> 1:16:38.800 like a brickshit house because they have to be like 1:16:39.200 --> 1:16:41.840 if you're gonna like pick up a super heavy weight 1:16:41.920 --> 1:16:44.000 and like hurl it across, you're not going to be 1:16:44.520 --> 1:16:46.479 built like a gymnast is going to be, you know, 1:16:46.640 --> 1:16:49.880 very petite and like you don't have a ballet ballerina's body. 1:16:50.760 --> 1:16:53.360 But that's like inherent to the sport. It's like so 1:16:54.320 --> 1:16:57.200 exactly right, you know. And and you know, one thing 1:16:57.200 --> 1:16:58.760 that I don't I don't feel like we talked about 1:16:58.880 --> 1:17:00.639 enough in terms of like body pot sittivity and things 1:17:00.680 --> 1:17:02.200 like that is the fact that like different bodies are 1:17:02.200 --> 1:17:05.320 good at different things, you know. And and miss French 1:17:05.360 --> 1:17:09.679 Dooble is like a former athlete, Like it makes sense 1:17:09.680 --> 1:17:11.519 that she looks the way that she looks, and yet 1:17:11.520 --> 1:17:15.200 that's used to demonize her in such a poignant sort 1:17:15.200 --> 1:17:18.559 of way. And like part of that is the way 1:17:18.560 --> 1:17:22.000 that like fatness is represented in this film. And to 1:17:22.080 --> 1:17:24.000 talk a little bit about that as like, because I 1:17:24.000 --> 1:17:28.040 think Trenchable is like not only the like antithesis of 1:17:28.280 --> 1:17:31.599 Misshani in terms of like you know, good and evil, 1:17:31.760 --> 1:17:34.839 it's like even just like their characteristics, you know, principle 1:17:34.960 --> 1:17:39.920 is large and expansive and loud and mascula and all 1:17:39.960 --> 1:17:42.160 these sort of different things and she hates children, you know, 1:17:42.680 --> 1:17:46.040 but I think specifically because of her fatness, Like it's 1:17:46.040 --> 1:17:50.240 worth noting the way that in our culture fatness tends 1:17:50.280 --> 1:17:53.479 to be portrayed and also tends to like affect gender. 1:17:54.479 --> 1:17:56.800 So what I mean by that, And you know, looking 1:17:56.840 --> 1:18:01.400 specifically at this film, fatness tends to either for men, 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:04.320 tends to feminize them. You know, we've seen that in 1:18:04.439 --> 1:18:07.719 like expressions like oh you've gotten man boobs or whatever, 1:18:07.840 --> 1:18:10.800 So a fat man is looked at as being more vulnerable, 1:18:10.880 --> 1:18:14.320 more feminine, we will, you know, and we see that 1:18:14.360 --> 1:18:17.240 a little bit in the way that like it's not 1:18:17.720 --> 1:18:20.080 I think a coincidence that the kid that trench Bill 1:18:20.120 --> 1:18:23.000 picks on is a fat kid. You know. That's like 1:18:23.000 --> 1:18:27.080 a whole other conversation, you know. Whereas like I think 1:18:27.120 --> 1:18:31.320 for women, and like, even though I am non binary, 1:18:31.439 --> 1:18:34.599 I was raised or I was like assigned female at birth, 1:18:35.600 --> 1:18:39.120 there's a lot of ways in which like being fat 1:18:39.880 --> 1:18:43.680 and being assigned female at birth or presumed female um 1:18:43.800 --> 1:18:48.880 or being female um ends up removing you a little 1:18:48.880 --> 1:18:52.280 bit from femininity, or at least it used to. Like 1:18:52.880 --> 1:18:56.240 to give an example, there was this ad campaign that 1:18:56.320 --> 1:18:59.120 was really very controversial, A couple of years ago in 1:18:59.160 --> 1:19:01.479 the States and encamp and that was supposed to be 1:19:01.560 --> 1:19:04.080 targeting like childhood obesity, and it was like, it's really 1:19:04.080 --> 1:19:05.640 hard to be a little girl when you aren't And 1:19:05.640 --> 1:19:08.800 it was a picture of a of a girl who 1:19:08.880 --> 1:19:12.800 was fat, and like that was like the line that 1:19:12.920 --> 1:19:14.920 was like over her fat body was like, it's hard 1:19:14.960 --> 1:19:17.599 to be a little girl when you're not and when 1:19:17.640 --> 1:19:21.439 you're not little, when you're not little, that was the 1:19:21.439 --> 1:19:25.200 the implication, and for a long time that was true. Like, 1:19:25.240 --> 1:19:28.599 for example, when I was growing up, like we didn't 1:19:28.600 --> 1:19:31.120 shop at the mall or anything like we you know, 1:19:31.200 --> 1:19:33.880 we relied on like thrift stores and and like hand 1:19:33.920 --> 1:19:36.000 me dns and stuff because we were like lower middle class. 1:19:37.120 --> 1:19:40.439 And I used to like wear my dad's like some 1:19:40.479 --> 1:19:43.559 of my dad's old clothes and stuff to school because 1:19:43.760 --> 1:19:46.040 anything that was like handed down that was sort of 1:19:46.080 --> 1:19:48.360 girly or anything that we like my mom got that 1:19:48.479 --> 1:19:51.200 was like sort of like what we're girly like styles 1:19:51.240 --> 1:19:55.320 and sighs, like her sighs so small for somebody that 1:19:55.400 --> 1:19:58.480 was like it would have never fit my body. So automatically, 1:19:59.800 --> 1:20:02.160 you know, you're getting made fun of at school because 1:20:02.200 --> 1:20:04.519 like one you're fat, but also like you're wearing your 1:20:04.600 --> 1:20:07.360 dad's clothes to school because like literally there weren't clothes 1:20:07.439 --> 1:20:10.080 to fit you. And I think that like there are 1:20:11.560 --> 1:20:13.720 some more like size inclusive brands and things like that. 1:20:13.760 --> 1:20:16.919 And that's why, like when we're talking about fat liberation, 1:20:17.000 --> 1:20:20.439 like clothing does play a part in that, because you 1:20:20.439 --> 1:20:24.680 have to wear clothes in society. Um, Unfortunately, we live 1:20:24.720 --> 1:20:26.960 in a society, yeah exactly, and people are going to 1:20:27.040 --> 1:20:31.599 judge a twelve year old wearing like their middle aged dads, 1:20:31.640 --> 1:20:35.760 like business casual clothes a lot harsher, you know than 1:20:35.800 --> 1:20:38.040 they are like another twelve year old that's like fitting 1:20:38.040 --> 1:20:42.040 in with like what people are wearing. So uh, you know, 1:20:42.080 --> 1:20:44.600 and it used to be the same, I mean, and 1:20:44.640 --> 1:20:46.920 I still think it is largely the same. Unfortunately for 1:20:46.960 --> 1:20:50.240 folks you know, who are my size and larger. You know, 1:20:50.320 --> 1:20:52.720 there's still is very few choices that we have when 1:20:52.720 --> 1:20:56.400 it comes to clothing and and things like that. Um, 1:20:56.439 --> 1:21:01.160 and so there is this like if you can't find 1:21:01.240 --> 1:21:06.360 gender affirming clothing, then like already your gender identity and 1:21:06.400 --> 1:21:10.080 how you affirm that is like sort of skewed, you know, 1:21:10.160 --> 1:21:12.760 in a way. And I think with trunch ball as well, 1:21:12.800 --> 1:21:16.240 Like she's not dainty, she's not like she doesn't have 1:21:16.320 --> 1:21:20.080 these traditionally feminine qualities, a lot of which are related 1:21:20.120 --> 1:21:23.400 to size. You know, when we talk about fat phobia, 1:21:23.439 --> 1:21:26.080 you know, it's important to recognize like the gendered elements 1:21:26.080 --> 1:21:27.960 of that and as well as like the racial elements 1:21:28.000 --> 1:21:31.640 of that. A lot of fat phobia is anchored in racism. 1:21:31.680 --> 1:21:34.920 You know, it's anchored in this idea that like white 1:21:35.479 --> 1:21:38.960 virginal like you know, what is it, like Anglo Saxon 1:21:39.000 --> 1:21:42.639 Protestant like bodies were supposed to look a certain way, 1:21:43.040 --> 1:21:47.120 and that became the ideal that people in society, women 1:21:47.280 --> 1:21:51.200 specifically were expected to adhere to. Jamie. You Um. A 1:21:51.240 --> 1:21:56.280 recent episode of ac cast dove into that as far 1:21:56.320 --> 1:22:00.600 as like diet culture and beauty standards and body size standards. 1:22:01.040 --> 1:22:03.479 Really well, so if anyone hasn't listened to that already, 1:22:03.920 --> 1:22:07.120 check that out. But um, yeah, it's grounded in a 1:22:07.360 --> 1:22:12.799 very colonialist Western I mean, we talked about the Western 1:22:12.800 --> 1:22:15.160 beauty standard all the time, and and it's it's very 1:22:15.240 --> 1:22:18.640 much rooted in colonialism and racism, and and it's a 1:22:18.720 --> 1:22:21.559 it's a zero sum game for everybody because it's rooted, 1:22:21.640 --> 1:22:27.800 and like everyone's bodies are being controlled. And so it's 1:22:27.840 --> 1:22:31.400 like even if you're you know, if you do look 1:22:31.479 --> 1:22:34.799 like miss honey, let's say that is still the result 1:22:34.960 --> 1:22:38.000 of the demands and pressures of the society that you're 1:22:38.040 --> 1:22:41.519 living in. So it's yeah. The the book that I 1:22:41.560 --> 1:22:45.759 would recommend to everybody listening is Fearing the Black Body 1:22:45.760 --> 1:22:49.320 by Sabrina Strings, which is just such an incredible comprehensive 1:22:49.320 --> 1:22:55.559 look at how fat people are othered and also how specifically, uh, 1:22:55.640 --> 1:22:59.800 non white fat people are extremely mothered um and have 1:23:00.040 --> 1:23:02.679 then yeah, and and how it's just it's yet another 1:23:03.920 --> 1:23:09.000 systemic issue that can be traced right back to colonialism absolutely, 1:23:09.040 --> 1:23:12.160 and and like and I second Jamie's recommendation on the 1:23:12.240 --> 1:23:16.240 books such a fantastic book and and like I feel 1:23:16.240 --> 1:23:18.280 like it's a book that I will continue to go 1:23:18.320 --> 1:23:22.120 back to and like reference, uh, because yeah, you know, 1:23:22.160 --> 1:23:23.920 there's there's a lot of stuff that we can all learn. 1:23:24.640 --> 1:23:26.599 What I was going to say in addition to that, too, 1:23:26.720 --> 1:23:28.720 is is, like you said, it's a zero sum game, 1:23:28.760 --> 1:23:33.920 everybody loses. And fatness and like queerness, the way that 1:23:33.960 --> 1:23:37.719 those two things interact as well in terms of villainy, 1:23:37.840 --> 1:23:39.640 like I said, is to just sort of render this 1:23:39.680 --> 1:23:43.640 body monstrous. You know, Like there are distinct moments in 1:23:43.640 --> 1:23:46.599 the film where trench Bull is like portrayed as being 1:23:46.600 --> 1:23:49.960 almost like animalistic. Like I think about like when she's 1:23:50.000 --> 1:23:53.640 like sniffing like the ribbon that she finds um you know, 1:23:53.720 --> 1:23:57.400 it's like yeah, or when she's like chasing Matilda and 1:23:57.479 --> 1:24:00.120 Massani through the house, which is still such like even now, 1:24:00.160 --> 1:24:03.439 it's still like such a terrifying scene to me. She's 1:24:03.479 --> 1:24:07.799 like sniffing the end, she's like she's like breathing heavily 1:24:08.120 --> 1:24:11.840 and like visibly perspiring, you know, And it's like this 1:24:12.000 --> 1:24:14.120 very animal sort of thing. And the way that her 1:24:14.240 --> 1:24:17.400 the camera treats her body at many points, and I 1:24:17.439 --> 1:24:22.040 feel like we're we're constantly seeing her from like up angles. 1:24:22.160 --> 1:24:27.639 We're seeing like her fishy lenses, like like unflattering lenses. 1:24:27.960 --> 1:24:31.760 She's shot very very differently than anyone else in the movie, 1:24:31.800 --> 1:24:34.000 even the other villains, because it's like you don't really 1:24:34.040 --> 1:24:37.840 see those applied to to Matilda's parents, even though I 1:24:37.880 --> 1:24:41.599 think that they are also not through fatness, but they're 1:24:41.600 --> 1:24:46.480 they're also physically mothered. Yeah, especially I think like especially 1:24:46.520 --> 1:24:48.800 I think Harry, I think it's sort of like the 1:24:49.280 --> 1:24:52.519 taller woman shorter man sort of thing that's like that's 1:24:52.520 --> 1:24:55.800 that played with like and like sort of stereotypes around 1:24:55.840 --> 1:24:58.160 like masculinity. I think also come into play a lot 1:24:58.200 --> 1:25:00.880 with Harry, And I think that that's maybe y mental 1:25:01.000 --> 1:25:02.639 to plays the pranks that she does on her dad 1:25:03.320 --> 1:25:06.520 is because he is so invested in this like masculine 1:25:07.120 --> 1:25:09.240 idea of his appearance. You know, he says to his 1:25:09.280 --> 1:25:11.880 son at one point, like, you know, I'm not selling 1:25:11.880 --> 1:25:15.000 a car, I'm selling me, you know, like, and so 1:25:15.080 --> 1:25:16.960 I think that, like that's another sort of line in 1:25:16.960 --> 1:25:18.479 the film where I feel like we're supposed to be 1:25:18.520 --> 1:25:21.240 laughing at the character because he's like, you know, he's 1:25:21.280 --> 1:25:23.519 like the short little guy who's like, you know, we 1:25:23.600 --> 1:25:25.880 have this idea in our minds that like short men 1:25:25.880 --> 1:25:30.360 are like somehow more vengeful then just like regular sized men, 1:25:32.080 --> 1:25:35.519 which is wrong. I mean, it's incorrect, but like I 1:25:35.560 --> 1:25:37.840 think that it's definitely like something that exists culturally. So 1:25:37.880 --> 1:25:41.760 I think that there's like a lot of different like 1:25:41.800 --> 1:25:43.840 ways that people's bodies are used in this film. And 1:25:43.880 --> 1:25:47.040 I also think, like I think about like the fat 1:25:47.120 --> 1:25:49.040 characters that I had growing up as a kid. It 1:25:49.120 --> 1:25:52.320 was like Miss trench Bull, uh that one Chicken from 1:25:52.360 --> 1:25:56.439 that uh like from Chicken Run. Oh no, not even 1:25:56.439 --> 1:26:01.080 from Chicken Run from from the like Disney Robin Hood 1:26:01.080 --> 1:26:04.920 where they're like foxes, I know exactly who you're doing. 1:26:05.880 --> 1:26:08.559 And she's like made Marian's and she's Scottish and she's 1:26:08.640 --> 1:26:14.040 like I think she's called Mrs Cluck, Madam Cluck, Lady Cluck. 1:26:14.120 --> 1:26:17.080 I don't know, Mrs Chicken. I don't know. Anyway, she 1:26:17.200 --> 1:26:22.479 was fat. Also, there is ursula. You know, we're not 1:26:22.479 --> 1:26:24.680 getting like there's not like you know, it's not like 1:26:24.760 --> 1:26:29.680 we get like a broad great spectrum, you know. Um 1:26:29.720 --> 1:26:31.479 so yeah, so when you do see like this like 1:26:31.560 --> 1:26:35.800 particularly unflattering portrayal of like a fat character, you know, 1:26:35.880 --> 1:26:37.759 like that's what I mean. Like I think my empathy 1:26:37.800 --> 1:26:40.880 really like kicks in and it's like, poor miss trench Bull, 1:26:41.479 --> 1:26:47.040 you're so awful. Also, I don't know, like one thing. 1:26:47.120 --> 1:26:49.479 This is sort of a side sort of note, but 1:26:49.600 --> 1:26:51.519 like trunch Bull says at one point that like she's 1:26:51.560 --> 1:26:54.240 like she hates children, and she's like I'm glad I 1:26:54.240 --> 1:26:56.040 would never was one. And that just makes me think 1:26:56.080 --> 1:26:58.360 that like maybe trunch Bill had like a really traumatic 1:26:58.400 --> 1:27:00.760 upbringing and she didn't go to therapy, and like that's 1:27:00.760 --> 1:27:03.640 why she behaves the way that she does, you know, 1:27:03.760 --> 1:27:06.960 and we don't get any insight into how That's something 1:27:07.000 --> 1:27:08.680 I didn't even that didn't even click for me, is 1:27:08.720 --> 1:27:12.280 like we get an extreme insight into how Matilda and 1:27:12.479 --> 1:27:15.360 Miss Honey were raised, but we get no insight into 1:27:15.600 --> 1:27:17.800 the people were being told are the villains. We have 1:27:17.840 --> 1:27:21.200 no insight into why they behaved the way they behave 1:27:22.040 --> 1:27:24.920 with the parents or with Miss trunch Ball. No, and 1:27:24.920 --> 1:27:27.920 and and like not to excuse like villainous behavior, not 1:27:27.960 --> 1:27:31.400 to excuse like people who are abusive, absolutely not, and 1:27:31.439 --> 1:27:34.719 not to make excuses for them. But I would argue 1:27:35.120 --> 1:27:38.439 that you know, here in we're pretty well aware of 1:27:38.439 --> 1:27:43.280 the fact that like, sometimes people who are abusive are violent. 1:27:43.800 --> 1:27:47.360 You know, sometimes people who are not great parents are 1:27:47.720 --> 1:27:50.559 the way that they are because of the fact that 1:27:51.120 --> 1:27:55.200 you know, they didn't have great role models and experienced 1:27:55.200 --> 1:27:59.080 abuse or experienced trauma themselves. Like hurt people. Hurt people 1:27:59.439 --> 1:28:02.800 because thing happens in a vacuum. And it would have 1:28:02.840 --> 1:28:08.439 been interesting to explore, yeah, why these villainous characters are 1:28:08.920 --> 1:28:11.160 the way they are, but the movie doesn't have any 1:28:11.439 --> 1:28:15.599 interest in exploring that, and especially when it queer codes them, 1:28:15.680 --> 1:28:17.840 like that's why. That's what it really bothers me. Is 1:28:17.880 --> 1:28:20.320 sort of like the fact that like, you know, here 1:28:20.360 --> 1:28:24.920 we have a queer coded villain who's like violent and 1:28:25.400 --> 1:28:29.639 abusive and we have no context for why. So then 1:28:29.640 --> 1:28:33.960 it's just like, oh, queer women specifically are just violent 1:28:34.000 --> 1:28:37.200 and abusive, and that end the story, which is like 1:28:37.320 --> 1:28:41.519 not not nothing, you know, like it's it's not a 1:28:41.600 --> 1:28:46.639 helpful narrative to perpetuate. It did make me laugh when 1:28:46.960 --> 1:28:49.559 Miss trunch Bull comes into the class, I think the 1:28:49.640 --> 1:28:54.400 second time she like oversees Miss Honny's class and the 1:28:54.520 --> 1:28:57.439 little girl who she had formerly thrown around by her 1:28:57.479 --> 1:29:01.880 pigtails was like, yeah, we learned how to bell difficulty 1:29:02.080 --> 1:29:04.800 via a song that Miss Honey taught us Mrs D, 1:29:05.080 --> 1:29:08.200 Mrs I, Mrs f f I, Mrs C, Mrs you, 1:29:08.479 --> 1:29:10.800 Mrs L t Y. And then trench Bull is like, 1:29:11.080 --> 1:29:13.760 why are all these women married? There? I think that, 1:29:13.920 --> 1:29:18.679 but but like why are why are all these women married? Question? 1:29:19.000 --> 1:29:21.920 And that's like another reason so here, okay, just as 1:29:21.920 --> 1:29:23.840 like a quick summary, I keep referring to trensh Bull 1:29:23.840 --> 1:29:26.120 as a queer coded character. Here are the reasons. That 1:29:26.280 --> 1:29:28.800 is one of the reasons in the book, although I 1:29:28.840 --> 1:29:31.120 don't think it's made as explicit in the movie. She 1:29:31.200 --> 1:29:33.840 hates long hair. That's why she throws the girl around 1:29:33.880 --> 1:29:37.559 by her pink tails, is because she hates long hair. Um. 1:29:37.640 --> 1:29:41.719 Like I said, they darkened Pam Ferris's mustache specifically for 1:29:42.040 --> 1:29:44.400 like the trench Bull, and of course we associate facial 1:29:44.439 --> 1:29:49.160 hair with like certain types of gender expression. You know. 1:29:49.439 --> 1:29:52.760 It's the fact that there are no love interests in 1:29:52.800 --> 1:29:54.960 this movie, and we didn't bring that up in terms 1:29:55.000 --> 1:29:57.240 of like something that's kind of crazy about kids films, 1:29:57.280 --> 1:29:59.720 but there's always love interest in kids films, but this 1:29:59.760 --> 1:30:02.439 film has no love interests. Yeah, so I think I 1:30:02.920 --> 1:30:06.479 love it, right, It's so good. I'm so happy that 1:30:06.560 --> 1:30:10.439 Matilda didn't get like a boy that she was sweet on. 1:30:10.600 --> 1:30:13.000 That made me so happy or that Honestly, I thought 1:30:13.040 --> 1:30:17.040 that Miss Honey, that was the most remarkable avoidance of 1:30:17.080 --> 1:30:20.559 that trope, because I the second I saw Miss Honey, 1:30:20.600 --> 1:30:22.280 I was like, oh my god, they're going to marry 1:30:22.280 --> 1:30:27.479 her off to some weirdo, like to Paul Rubens. Or something. 1:30:28.280 --> 1:30:31.720 She's gonna marry a cop Lana del Ray style. This 1:30:31.760 --> 1:30:34.800 is a nightmare. But Miss Honey, I thought it was 1:30:34.880 --> 1:30:38.559 like because I feel like and I'm trying to think 1:30:38.560 --> 1:30:40.800 of who I'm thinking of here, but because I feel 1:30:40.800 --> 1:30:44.080 like we've seen so many Miss Honey characters in children's 1:30:44.160 --> 1:30:48.960 media who always are like that. That is how the 1:30:49.560 --> 1:30:55.439 traditionally Western beauty standards feminine woman. That's how her story ends. 1:30:55.560 --> 1:30:57.920 It's like but where it's like, there's so much of 1:30:58.120 --> 1:31:00.599 Miss Honey's story as its present it in the movie 1:31:00.760 --> 1:31:04.840 is almost like a Cinderella e story, except that it 1:31:05.040 --> 1:31:11.120 ends with her asserting herself, confronting her past, and adopting 1:31:11.280 --> 1:31:13.800 a child to raise as a single parent, which is like, 1:31:14.160 --> 1:31:17.599 that is awesome. That like I was blown away by 1:31:17.640 --> 1:31:21.519 that creative choice and like, you know, and and that 1:31:21.640 --> 1:31:24.360 idea of sort of like even after like even in 1:31:24.400 --> 1:31:27.679 the like after the you know, when we're getting into 1:31:27.720 --> 1:31:30.720 like you know, after Trunch believes, you know, and Miss 1:31:30.800 --> 1:31:32.640 Honey's living her life and until it's coming to his 1:31:32.880 --> 1:31:35.160 like there's no man at that point, even that's brought 1:31:35.200 --> 1:31:37.799 into the picture, it's like no, no, no, she decided 1:31:37.840 --> 1:31:39.920 to be a single parent. She was like, no, I 1:31:39.960 --> 1:31:43.920 got daddy bucks. I'm good, Like, don't even worry about 1:31:43.960 --> 1:31:52.760 like ushbucks. Yeah, yeah, because her dad's And I think 1:31:52.760 --> 1:31:54.400 if they had married her off, we wouldn't have had 1:31:54.400 --> 1:31:56.479 those moments, Jamie. I really think that there would have 1:31:56.520 --> 1:31:59.600 been like, instead of her standing up for herself in 1:31:59.640 --> 1:32:01.519 a certain herself, I really think it would have been 1:32:01.680 --> 1:32:05.320 the man being like, well, gosh, darn it, you can't 1:32:05.400 --> 1:32:08.280 let your aunt treat you like that, you know, Jennifer, 1:32:08.680 --> 1:32:11.200 how could you let yourself be treated this way for 1:32:11.240 --> 1:32:14.559 so long? And you're like, get out of here there. Yeah. 1:32:14.920 --> 1:32:17.679 But then but then it's it's it's such a double 1:32:17.800 --> 1:32:21.600 edged thing because as it feels so pointed when that 1:32:21.720 --> 1:32:24.599 same choice is applied to miss trunch Bull, because it's 1:32:24.640 --> 1:32:27.479 done so without context and we don't have any context 1:32:27.520 --> 1:32:32.160 about who she is exactly right, And because she's also 1:32:32.200 --> 1:32:34.599 like the older spinster and I had to use that word, 1:32:34.640 --> 1:32:38.719 but like she's like the older unmarried woman. I feel 1:32:38.720 --> 1:32:42.080 like there's also always a connotation like that, like and 1:32:42.080 --> 1:32:45.760 and again, I hope this is changing, but I feel 1:32:45.760 --> 1:32:47.320 like for a really long time, it's like, oh, the 1:32:47.400 --> 1:32:50.240 older unmarried woman. You know, it's like, well, you know, 1:32:51.240 --> 1:32:52.760 you guys might not be able to see, but I'm 1:32:52.880 --> 1:32:55.519 raising people on the podcast can't see at all, but 1:32:55.640 --> 1:32:58.000 I'm like doing like the vaguely eyebrows sort of thing. 1:32:58.040 --> 1:33:03.720 You know. Yeah, there would have definitely been like a 1:33:04.040 --> 1:33:06.080 folksy old saying that we had for that on the 1:33:06.080 --> 1:33:09.160 East Coast, like, oh, you know, she's a little lightner 1:33:09.240 --> 1:33:15.640 Loofer's meaningful glance like, yeah, I heard she's more of 1:33:15.680 --> 1:33:22.479 a cat person, if you know what I mean, except 1:33:22.520 --> 1:33:26.720 that we do see trunch Bull kick a cat across 1:33:26.720 --> 1:33:29.240 the yard. Yeah, she's actually not much of a cat. 1:33:29.680 --> 1:33:32.559 She's not much of a cat person. That that scene 1:33:32.840 --> 1:33:35.040 is still swept saying to me that in the new scene, 1:33:35.040 --> 1:33:39.320 the cruelty to animals, yeah, really bad. I want to 1:33:39.320 --> 1:33:42.720 go back to the way fatness is treated in the 1:33:42.760 --> 1:33:47.519 movie as it relates to Bruce bog Trotter, she played 1:33:47.560 --> 1:33:51.559 by Jimmy carrs who's a doctor now, who's a doctor? Now? 1:33:51.560 --> 1:33:54.759 Oh my gosh, I have some quotes to share. Okay. 1:33:54.800 --> 1:33:59.439 I found this oral history that is specific to the 1:33:59.520 --> 1:34:02.320 cake eating scene in the movie. There's like a long 1:34:02.479 --> 1:34:05.679 oral history from Newsweek. No kidding, I didn't know that 1:34:06.040 --> 1:34:10.160 yes by Zach Schonfeld. Will link it in the description, 1:34:10.200 --> 1:34:13.000 but it's a long oral history about one scene in 1:34:13.040 --> 1:34:16.519 the movie. Anyway, So a bunch of people are interviewed. 1:34:16.920 --> 1:34:21.519 I have a couple disturbing quotes from Danny DeVito, who's, uh, 1:34:22.160 --> 1:34:25.720 maybe this makes him perhaps not the Wilke came we 1:34:25.800 --> 1:34:31.080 thought he was well because he says, um, in an 1:34:31.080 --> 1:34:36.559 earlier quote, he's just talking about the child actor Jimmy saying, um, oh, 1:34:36.720 --> 1:34:39.240 you know, he was so cool. He's an orthopedic doctor. 1:34:39.280 --> 1:34:42.240 Now I don't know exactly if he's a surgeon or 1:34:42.400 --> 1:34:47.240 just a bone guy. So there's that one. The second 1:34:47.320 --> 1:34:51.160 quote is him saying, it's really funny because like Danny DeVito, 1:34:51.240 --> 1:34:53.439 because like the reason I knew that kid is now 1:34:53.920 --> 1:34:56.559 a doctor was because there's another quote another thing that 1:34:56.600 --> 1:35:00.519 I read that Danny DeVito was like, yeah, kid, he's 1:35:00.560 --> 1:35:03.480 some kind of some kind of doctor. Now, maybe an osteopath. 1:35:03.760 --> 1:35:06.559 I don't know. I thought you could, yeah, you could 1:35:06.720 --> 1:35:08.920 hear him saying that in his voice, like I don't know, 1:35:08.920 --> 1:35:13.280 it's some kind of bone guy. I don't know, but 1:35:13.400 --> 1:35:16.599 I love that Danny DeVito like those he's some kind 1:35:16.640 --> 1:35:18.960 of bone guy. He's like an uncle who's trying to 1:35:19.000 --> 1:35:22.280 remember some kind of like cousin's boyfriend's roommate or something, 1:35:22.320 --> 1:35:24.479 you know, like, yeah, I don't need to know. I don't. 1:35:24.520 --> 1:35:26.960 I don't need Danny DeVito to know more about medicine 1:35:27.000 --> 1:35:30.719 than that that's wine. That's good. Well, listen to this 1:35:31.000 --> 1:35:35.200 second quote. There's a lot to unpack here. So Danny 1:35:35.240 --> 1:35:39.559 DeVito says about the actor who eats the cake in 1:35:39.600 --> 1:35:43.519 the movie quote, Jimmy is looking amazing. He's grown into 1:35:43.520 --> 1:35:46.759 a fine young man. He was a little chubb chub 1:35:46.880 --> 1:35:50.439 when I knew him. Now he's a strapping young gentleman 1:35:50.800 --> 1:35:56.719 and a doctor not doctor doctor is how it's quoted. 1:35:56.800 --> 1:36:01.519 Danny DeVito can't not talk like a Newsies character. She's 1:36:01.560 --> 1:36:04.240 a doctor. And then the final part of this is 1:36:04.800 --> 1:36:08.200 of his quote is oh I need bone doctors. Man, 1:36:08.600 --> 1:36:16.360 I'm the original guy in need of bone doctors unquote. Okay, 1:36:16.360 --> 1:36:18.800 and I'm back and I'm back. That second quote was 1:36:18.840 --> 1:36:24.479 not great, but the third one I'm back. So how 1:36:24.680 --> 1:36:28.919 is Danny de Vito a native auntie like that happened? 1:36:30.560 --> 1:36:35.080 I don't know. God, that's I bring up this quote 1:36:35.120 --> 1:36:39.200 because of the way he's talking about Jimmy carrs he 1:36:39.320 --> 1:36:42.639 was a kid. Yes, So what happens in the movie 1:36:42.880 --> 1:36:48.400 is Principal trunch Bowl calls an assembly so that the 1:36:48.479 --> 1:36:53.960 whole school can watch her fat shame a child because 1:36:53.960 --> 1:36:58.720 she suspects him of eating a piece of her chocolate cake. Um, 1:36:58.800 --> 1:37:01.519 which is it's never terribly clear if he did or 1:37:01.520 --> 1:37:04.080 if he didn't. He says like it's better than my mom's. 1:37:04.120 --> 1:37:06.479 But he's also but like, I don't know if that's 1:37:06.520 --> 1:37:10.479 just like something a kid would say, right right, So 1:37:10.920 --> 1:37:13.240 we're not even sure if he is like guilty of 1:37:13.280 --> 1:37:18.080 this non crime, but for this nom nom crime whoa 1:37:19.280 --> 1:37:28.320 sticky sticky alert. So she calls him on stage and 1:37:28.720 --> 1:37:31.559 it's like, here, eat this piece of cake, and then 1:37:31.560 --> 1:37:36.160 he does kind of reluctantly, and then she like summons 1:37:36.400 --> 1:37:39.800 the cook of the school, who brings out the rest 1:37:39.840 --> 1:37:44.120 of this enormous cake, and then trunch both forces Bruce 1:37:44.280 --> 1:37:46.960 bog Trotter to eat the whole thing in front of 1:37:46.960 --> 1:37:51.200 the school. So the fact that it's like a fat 1:37:51.280 --> 1:37:55.120 kid who stole the cake to begin with, who is 1:37:55.479 --> 1:37:59.760 made a spectacle of basically who is publicly shamed for 1:38:00.000 --> 1:38:03.439 are perpet humiliated. Yeah, and eating thing, and the whole 1:38:03.479 --> 1:38:08.160 thing being framed as being disgusting. Like I have to 1:38:08.240 --> 1:38:12.160 skip over this scene because it is the way in which, 1:38:12.320 --> 1:38:15.759 like the costuming they put like all this like smeared 1:38:15.840 --> 1:38:20.000 chocolate all over him in his face, and the angles 1:38:20.040 --> 1:38:23.639 that they're shooting this kid with, and just the kind 1:38:23.640 --> 1:38:28.599 of grotesqueness of it all is basically using cinematic language 1:38:28.640 --> 1:38:33.040 communicating to the audience saying basically like when fat people eat, 1:38:33.360 --> 1:38:36.360 it's gross and it's shameful, and this is how you 1:38:36.360 --> 1:38:40.840 should feel when you watch that, and it's just so 1:38:40.960 --> 1:38:44.519 horrendously fatphobic and toxic. And and they do the same 1:38:44.520 --> 1:38:46.360 thing with trench Bill. There's a there's a point when 1:38:46.600 --> 1:38:48.880 trench Bills eating a piece of chocolate cake at her house. 1:38:48.920 --> 1:38:51.080 I think, when yeah, tell, then there are there where 1:38:51.080 --> 1:38:53.040 they do like a sort of similar sort of call back. 1:38:53.080 --> 1:38:55.280 And it's a lot of mouth sounds for no reason 1:38:55.360 --> 1:38:57.880 and a very tight angle for no reason. You know. 1:38:58.880 --> 1:39:03.400 But this scene is like this scene in particular has 1:39:03.439 --> 1:39:08.440 been written about by a lot of like fat academics 1:39:08.520 --> 1:39:11.920 and artists, like because this is our trauma, this is 1:39:11.920 --> 1:39:15.080 our collective trauma um for folks who can't see me 1:39:15.080 --> 1:39:17.519 on the podcast. I am a fat person. I'm very 1:39:17.520 --> 1:39:20.720 happy calling myself that. That is like being called a 1:39:20.720 --> 1:39:23.880 little chub. Chub by Danny DeVito is now my dream, 1:39:24.760 --> 1:39:28.200 um and putting it on my back list. But like 1:39:28.400 --> 1:39:30.640 you know, uh, this is like this is part of 1:39:30.680 --> 1:39:35.240 our collective trauma because like, UM, we have this association first, 1:39:35.439 --> 1:39:38.160 first and foremost, you know, we have this idea within 1:39:38.200 --> 1:39:42.480 our culture that you are ultimately the person who determines 1:39:43.240 --> 1:39:46.760 what your body looks like, which is not true. UM. 1:39:46.880 --> 1:39:54.519 Our bodies are they estimate probably you know, the way 1:39:54.520 --> 1:39:56.760 that we look is determined by our genetics. So what 1:39:56.800 --> 1:40:00.799 does your family look like? What did your ancestors look like? UM? 1:40:02.120 --> 1:40:06.080 Is like variable sort of like health outcomes, but a 1:40:06.120 --> 1:40:09.439 lot of that is also like tied to class, tied 1:40:09.560 --> 1:40:14.160 to ability, you know, like do you have chronic illness? 1:40:14.240 --> 1:40:17.720 Do you suffer from like depression? Things like that? Can 1:40:17.760 --> 1:40:20.920 you afford? What was that article about that woman who 1:40:20.960 --> 1:40:23.600 spends like so many thousands of dollars every month on 1:40:23.680 --> 1:40:29.600 like smoothie like health food smoothies and like that. Oh absolutely, 1:40:29.640 --> 1:40:32.200 you know, and like for indigenous people as well, like 1:40:32.920 --> 1:40:34.400 you know, when if you want to talk about like 1:40:34.400 --> 1:40:37.200 spending thousands of dollars at the grocery store, like there 1:40:37.320 --> 1:40:40.640 is an overwhelming occupation. Um. And you'll see this a 1:40:40.680 --> 1:40:44.000 lot on reserves here at least in Canada, Like, um, 1:40:44.040 --> 1:40:48.200 there's a lot of government messaging about how indigenous folks like, oh, 1:40:48.360 --> 1:40:50.320 you need to make healthier eating choices and you need 1:40:50.360 --> 1:40:53.519 to do this, and you do that. But um, like 1:40:53.560 --> 1:40:56.160 I've been in flying communities in northern Quebec. Here we're 1:40:56.200 --> 1:40:59.679 buying like it's to buy like like a two liter 1:40:59.720 --> 1:41:04.800 of mal it's like fifteen bucks, you know, to buy 1:41:04.880 --> 1:41:10.559 like a thing of like asparagus, it's like twelve bucks. 1:41:10.880 --> 1:41:15.280 You know, if you're trying to feed your family, you know, 1:41:15.560 --> 1:41:19.040 you have to make certain choices about like the food 1:41:19.040 --> 1:41:21.639 that you can even have access to, like fresh produce, 1:41:21.680 --> 1:41:24.280 like getting fresh produced up north can be challenging at times, 1:41:24.320 --> 1:41:26.120 you know. And it's not even just up north, Like 1:41:26.160 --> 1:41:29.280 I'm from Eastern Canada. The last time I lived in 1:41:29.280 --> 1:41:32.519 Eastern Canada, I lived in our a city, you know, 1:41:33.280 --> 1:41:37.519 like a city with public transport and universities and like 1:41:37.800 --> 1:41:40.120 like guess like a real city, like a real you know, 1:41:41.280 --> 1:41:43.680 and like there was still like the winter before I 1:41:43.720 --> 1:41:47.360 moved to Montreal, caulie flower to get ahead of cauliflower. 1:41:48.000 --> 1:41:51.280 It was like eight bucks, you know, like and that's 1:41:51.280 --> 1:41:53.840 like in that's you know, that isn't in a remote area. 1:41:53.920 --> 1:41:56.200 That's just like being on the East Coast, the price 1:41:56.240 --> 1:42:00.080 of living is very, very expensive, and so like I 1:42:00.120 --> 1:42:03.760 hate the term food desert because again, like all of 1:42:03.800 --> 1:42:07.080 this is very intentional. You know, people can grow cauliflower 1:42:07.120 --> 1:42:10.360 in a lot of places, like there could be you know, 1:42:10.479 --> 1:42:13.360 different projects and things like that, but especially like a 1:42:13.439 --> 1:42:16.639 lot of indigenous people you know, would love to connect 1:42:16.720 --> 1:42:21.360 with like getting traditional food, um, but a lot of 1:42:21.360 --> 1:42:25.240 that is made so difficult and so expensive that you know, 1:42:25.360 --> 1:42:26.559 at the end of the day, it's sort of like 1:42:26.600 --> 1:42:29.240 will make healthier choices, It's like, well I can't afford to. 1:42:29.680 --> 1:42:31.880 I am making the best choices that I can afford 1:42:31.880 --> 1:42:35.040 to to feed my family, you know, and factory farming 1:42:36.080 --> 1:42:40.080 is awful. And there's a lot of arguments around like 1:42:40.120 --> 1:42:43.040 you know, eating specific diets and different you know, to 1:42:43.080 --> 1:42:46.760 do different things, you know, lower cholesterol or less meat 1:42:46.760 --> 1:42:50.080 intake because of the effect on they plan it. But 1:42:50.160 --> 1:42:52.639 for so many, so many people, that decision is like 1:42:53.520 --> 1:42:58.240 again like having enough food right right and having access 1:42:58.760 --> 1:43:01.559 big time, and that is like one of the many 1:43:01.680 --> 1:43:05.160 things that this movie does that feels it almost feels 1:43:05.439 --> 1:43:08.040 like it's interacting with the point we were talking about 1:43:08.040 --> 1:43:11.400 earlier where it was like the kind of you see 1:43:11.400 --> 1:43:15.040 where they're going with it, but it's inherently like misrepresenting 1:43:15.600 --> 1:43:20.160 issues around education and oversimplifying it of And I feel 1:43:20.160 --> 1:43:23.120 like the way that this movie treats food, like you 1:43:23.120 --> 1:43:27.800 were describing just as like this is an individual decision 1:43:28.040 --> 1:43:31.559 as opposed to all of these factors. And then on 1:43:31.640 --> 1:43:36.759 top of that, who gives a ship? It's none of business, yeah, 1:43:36.880 --> 1:43:39.439 you know, and like and even just like the portraying 1:43:39.479 --> 1:43:41.519 it as like, oh, you know, he can eat all 1:43:41.560 --> 1:43:43.479 of this cake because he's a fat kid. Like that 1:43:43.600 --> 1:43:45.360 was like always like the jump that I sort of 1:43:46.200 --> 1:43:49.160 we're making my brain of like and it's like, no, 1:43:49.439 --> 1:43:53.400 like the human stomach, no matter what size your body is, 1:43:54.120 --> 1:43:56.519 is about the same, Like it's about you know, it's 1:43:56.840 --> 1:43:59.519 gonna be your little like your little poach. You know, 1:43:59.600 --> 1:44:02.479 it's not it's not that big cannot fit an entire 1:44:03.000 --> 1:44:06.839 chocolate cake. That's like I don't know, twenty inches in diameter. 1:44:07.000 --> 1:44:14.280 That thing was enormous, like tall like and very sticky. Um. 1:44:14.320 --> 1:44:16.920 I would also like again sort of with like trunch Bowl, 1:44:17.240 --> 1:44:20.400 you know, and broadcasting things via people's names, Miss Fanny 1:44:20.600 --> 1:44:24.160 broadcasting things via people's names, Wormwood, which is a poison 1:44:24.240 --> 1:44:27.479 broadcasting things via people's names. I feel like bog Trotter 1:44:27.680 --> 1:44:32.120 is also like a fat name, like a lack of 1:44:32.160 --> 1:44:34.800 like a better term for it, like and and it's 1:44:34.840 --> 1:44:36.720 it's it's sort of this like it's it's because of 1:44:36.840 --> 1:44:39.320 sort of like the like oh sounds that you end 1:44:39.400 --> 1:44:41.640 up getting. I don't know, it's like the roundness of 1:44:41.680 --> 1:44:43.640 an oh. I don't know, bog Trotter. You wouldn't call 1:44:43.640 --> 1:44:46.759 a thin character bob Trotter. Yeah, I see what you're saying. 1:44:46.880 --> 1:44:49.439 It almost sounds like because I wish I had written 1:44:49.479 --> 1:44:53.559 them down, because trench Bowl comes up with several just 1:44:53.880 --> 1:44:58.120 iconic insults that she calls the children. The one I remember, 1:44:58.240 --> 1:45:04.080 she calls them something something piss worms something, it's like um, 1:45:04.120 --> 1:45:07.800 but bog Trotter almost sounds like one of the insults 1:45:07.840 --> 1:45:11.800 that she would hurl at a child and then like right, 1:45:11.880 --> 1:45:15.800 But contrast, Miss Honey is called miss Honey because she's 1:45:15.800 --> 1:45:19.360 sweet and pleasant, it's like Swan being your last name 1:45:19.360 --> 1:45:25.360 and you being like beautiful. Right, It's like it's like that, yeah, 1:45:25.400 --> 1:45:31.719 that extreme, Like I understand why Roldal makes those choices 1:45:31.760 --> 1:45:35.960 because of whatever. He's telegraphing things in simple terms, because 1:45:35.960 --> 1:45:39.200 he's a children's author, but he's telegraphing things that are 1:45:39.479 --> 1:45:45.160 broad stereotypes, so he's using his tools for evil. I 1:45:45.200 --> 1:45:47.760 don't like it. And then when we talk about how 1:45:47.800 --> 1:45:53.120 Bruce's story plays out, because that scene takes place, and 1:45:53.160 --> 1:46:01.800 then it kind of ends as this like Spartacuss style ending, Um, 1:46:01.920 --> 1:46:05.080 let's let's unpack that. I'm curious of what you both 1:46:05.120 --> 1:46:08.599 thought of how that seems kind of results, right, because 1:46:08.640 --> 1:46:11.559 instead of any and again, this is a room full 1:46:11.600 --> 1:46:14.320 of children who you know are perhaps not the most 1:46:14.400 --> 1:46:20.160 equipped to advocate further peers against a tyrannical principle. But 1:46:20.840 --> 1:46:23.559 it's also a movie, and like whatever, you can suspend 1:46:23.600 --> 1:46:28.880 your disbelief for things. But rather than anyone being like, no, Bruce, stop, 1:46:29.000 --> 1:46:31.800 you don't have to do this thing that's clearly like 1:46:31.880 --> 1:46:35.200 making you ill and causing you pain and is humiliating 1:46:35.240 --> 1:46:39.439 you and all this stuff, Matilda's like you can do it. 1:46:39.680 --> 1:46:44.799 Keep eating which you're like, oh, she's trying. She's trying, 1:46:45.280 --> 1:46:49.840 but like, yeah, like she's egging him on in support 1:46:50.000 --> 1:46:52.920 and almost like encouraging him to finish the cake. Might 1:46:53.040 --> 1:46:54.880 read on it as she's encouraging him to finish the 1:46:54.880 --> 1:46:57.840 cake out of spite for Miss trunch Ball, right, So 1:46:57.880 --> 1:47:01.639 it's like there's no like malice in her intent, but 1:47:02.600 --> 1:47:07.280 as far as like the implications of what she's cheering 1:47:07.360 --> 1:47:12.920 him on for is not very productive, we'll say no. 1:47:13.560 --> 1:47:16.040 And it's it's I mean, I'm sure we've all eaten 1:47:16.120 --> 1:47:21.240 things out of spite for somebody, you know, at least 1:47:21.240 --> 1:47:25.320 once a day, you know, like, yeah, it is really weird. 1:47:25.360 --> 1:47:27.599 And I never, like as a fat kid and as 1:47:27.640 --> 1:47:31.519 a fat adult, I never look at that scene and 1:47:32.280 --> 1:47:35.920 at the end like feel like whoa, you know, yeah 1:47:37.479 --> 1:47:43.639 we won, right right, it was like everyone loses. Yeah. 1:47:43.680 --> 1:47:45.640 So it's it's like really, it's really really tricky and 1:47:45.680 --> 1:47:49.840 it's nice. I'm so on the one hand, I am 1:47:49.880 --> 1:47:54.760 so happy for Matilda that she stands up and like 1:47:54.840 --> 1:47:58.479 supports one of her peers and like and some of 1:47:58.520 --> 1:48:00.720 the scenes I love most of the movie is like um, 1:48:00.760 --> 1:48:02.680 the scenes between like the friends when you start to 1:48:02.680 --> 1:48:06.519 realize that like her in her Tensia and Lavender and 1:48:06.600 --> 1:48:09.960 Bruce like hang out, you know, And I love that, 1:48:10.160 --> 1:48:12.519 and I love that Matilda would feel like she's standing 1:48:12.520 --> 1:48:16.840 out for for somebody. But yeah, it's I do want 1:48:16.880 --> 1:48:21.840 to touch on Lavender really quick because she is one 1:48:21.880 --> 1:48:26.679 of the few non white characters in the entire movie, 1:48:27.400 --> 1:48:33.200 played by Kiami Duval. She is I think the only 1:48:34.040 --> 1:48:39.040 bipop character who has any lines of dialogue. There are 1:48:39.120 --> 1:48:42.960 others in background shots who were like kids, who were 1:48:43.000 --> 1:48:45.439 like extras in the classroom, but she's I think the 1:48:45.479 --> 1:48:49.720 only one who has lines of dialogue. Um. Even so, 1:48:49.800 --> 1:48:53.240 though she has very little narrative significance, to the point 1:48:53.280 --> 1:48:56.679 where if you noticed, she's barely mentioned in the recap 1:48:56.800 --> 1:48:59.960 because you could essentially write her out of the movie 1:49:00.200 --> 1:49:04.840 and the story would not really change at all. True, 1:49:05.160 --> 1:49:08.479 I love that she's there. She's the cutest child I've 1:49:08.520 --> 1:49:14.120 ever seen, and I just wanted more for her because 1:49:14.320 --> 1:49:19.599 she is present but not in a meaningful way, and 1:49:19.680 --> 1:49:23.559 that's extremely noticeable in a movie that is predominantly white, 1:49:23.960 --> 1:49:26.880 which is as we talked about at Like at the 1:49:26.920 --> 1:49:32.160 beginning of the show, mainstream children's movies in like American cinema, 1:49:32.280 --> 1:49:34.040 especially the ones that have like stood the test of 1:49:34.120 --> 1:49:36.760 time and that we like still watch and remember and 1:49:36.800 --> 1:49:42.519 like talk about, are so so so white. It's just 1:49:42.680 --> 1:49:47.640 another unfortunate example of there being very few people of 1:49:47.680 --> 1:49:51.000 color in the movie, and the one that has a 1:49:51.160 --> 1:49:55.720 name and any lines of dialogue still doesn't contribute to 1:49:55.760 --> 1:49:57.840 this story, isn't allowed to contribute to the story in 1:49:57.840 --> 1:50:01.880 any meaningful way. Absolutely it us feel like symbolic diversity 1:50:02.000 --> 1:50:06.920 over anything, you know, like which feels very of its time. 1:50:06.960 --> 1:50:09.080 But also you know, how how much of that has 1:50:09.080 --> 1:50:13.360 actually been resolved in modern media? Exactly No, And it's 1:50:13.360 --> 1:50:15.160 it's so unfortunate because, like I said, you know, some 1:50:15.240 --> 1:50:19.040 of my favorite moments in the film are moments between 1:50:19.120 --> 1:50:23.679 Lavender and Matilda, Like I really love for example, when 1:50:24.160 --> 1:50:27.240 um that last sort of rampage that trench wile goes 1:50:27.280 --> 1:50:30.400 on and she, like Matilda then like saves Lavender by 1:50:30.439 --> 1:50:32.720 like lifting her up and putting around the pipe and 1:50:32.720 --> 1:50:36.000 then bringing her down safely, you know. And there's another 1:50:36.040 --> 1:50:40.200 moment to where like when the newt and she knows 1:50:40.240 --> 1:50:43.320 that Lavender put the new in the water, and Lavender 1:50:43.360 --> 1:50:45.160 is like, well, thank you for not telling him Matilda's 1:50:45.200 --> 1:50:47.800 like best friends don't tell you know, those moments are 1:50:47.840 --> 1:50:50.679 really really nice, And I always been watching this film, 1:50:50.760 --> 1:50:52.519 as much as I enjoy it, always wish that there 1:50:52.520 --> 1:50:56.160 were more of those kind of moments, because, like, I 1:50:56.160 --> 1:50:59.559 think it's also just like nice, nice friendships, you know, 1:51:00.280 --> 1:51:02.760 just and there's room for it in the movie, it 1:51:02.800 --> 1:51:05.559 feels like it's and I feel like it's almost like 1:51:05.680 --> 1:51:10.360 Lavender's character is put aside in favor of focusing on 1:51:10.479 --> 1:51:13.639 their relationship between Matilda and Miss Honey. But I feel 1:51:13.680 --> 1:51:16.240 like it would have been a powerful choice to have 1:51:16.400 --> 1:51:19.800 Matilda like strongly connect and learn about her connection with 1:51:19.840 --> 1:51:22.960 a with a kid her own age, too, especially because 1:51:23.000 --> 1:51:25.679 it's set up in the movie that like, she doesn't 1:51:25.840 --> 1:51:30.400 have friends like people her age that she talks to 1:51:30.560 --> 1:51:34.880 because like again, her really awful parents are depriving her 1:51:34.880 --> 1:51:38.760 of opportunities to connect with children her own age. So yeah, 1:51:38.800 --> 1:51:42.080 I almost would have rather this story unfold in such 1:51:42.120 --> 1:51:44.759 a way that sure, Miss Honey can be a character, 1:51:44.880 --> 1:51:47.760 she can be a positive influence in Matilda's life, but 1:51:47.920 --> 1:51:51.280 I kind of rather see a story about Matilda meeting 1:51:51.960 --> 1:51:55.040 like a best friend and developing that friendship and the 1:51:55.080 --> 1:51:58.439 hi jinks that they get into together or even just 1:51:58.479 --> 1:52:02.240 like including Lavender in the Miss Honey story, like where 1:52:02.280 --> 1:52:05.400 it seems like she is also has you know, she's 1:52:05.479 --> 1:52:08.880 also being abused at this school by Miss trench Bull. 1:52:09.280 --> 1:52:11.479 We have to assume there's a larger context for that. 1:52:11.560 --> 1:52:13.479 How did she end up at this school? What? Like 1:52:13.560 --> 1:52:16.040 what is her what is her family? Like like it 1:52:16.439 --> 1:52:21.280 there's it? Would it would help the story? No, absolutely, 1:52:21.360 --> 1:52:23.240 and sort of like yeah, like with her home life, 1:52:23.280 --> 1:52:25.120 like like that's always the big question I have is 1:52:25.160 --> 1:52:28.960 like part of trench Bulls like over the top punishments, 1:52:29.040 --> 1:52:32.439 is like the idea that like parents would never believe children, 1:52:33.560 --> 1:52:36.439 you know, so then it's like, oh, okay, well then 1:52:36.520 --> 1:52:39.920 like what's is Lavender also in a situation where like 1:52:40.000 --> 1:52:43.920 she needs to be rescued like you know, and and 1:52:44.160 --> 1:52:45.600 you know, you start to sort of wonder about this 1:52:45.720 --> 1:52:47.479 kind of things. I think it could also be interesting 1:52:47.520 --> 1:52:51.200 for Matilda to like meet a family that's like functional 1:52:51.560 --> 1:52:55.120 and like healthy like healthy relationship dynamics and sort of 1:52:55.160 --> 1:52:59.600 like be able to sort of realize like which I 1:52:59.640 --> 1:53:01.599 think she does. Like I think she's very well aware 1:53:01.600 --> 1:53:03.799 of the fact that, like her home life is not ideal, 1:53:03.880 --> 1:53:07.160 but like it might sort of like take that contrast 1:53:07.200 --> 1:53:09.479 of like being like, oh, you know, like I could 1:53:09.560 --> 1:53:14.240 maybe ask for something better for myself, Jamie, I know 1:53:14.320 --> 1:53:16.760 that you have a heart out soon. The last thing 1:53:16.760 --> 1:53:19.559 I wanted to bring up very quickly is just shout 1:53:19.600 --> 1:53:23.280 out to this movie for not being copaganda, because the 1:53:23.360 --> 1:53:27.439 FBI agents in this movie are like treated as kind 1:53:27.439 --> 1:53:31.840 of being, you know, bumbling fools. And the funniest part 1:53:31.840 --> 1:53:34.800 of the movie to me is when so like these 1:53:34.960 --> 1:53:38.360 FBI agents are tailing Mr Wormwood because he is like 1:53:38.560 --> 1:53:42.000 buying and selling stolen car parts and stuff. Why the 1:53:42.080 --> 1:53:48.599 FBI is involved not sure, but the unclear. Matilda keeps 1:53:48.600 --> 1:53:51.080 telling her parents like, oh, these guys that are outside 1:53:51.280 --> 1:53:54.599 watching you all the time are obviously cops, and her 1:53:54.680 --> 1:53:58.000 mom's like, no, their speedboat salesman. Um. And then at 1:53:58.040 --> 1:54:00.559 one point Matilda comes home and the two agents, one 1:54:00.640 --> 1:54:04.200 of which is Paul Rubens, are in the house and 1:54:04.240 --> 1:54:06.640 like her mom is kind of flirting with them, and 1:54:06.680 --> 1:54:08.960 then Matilda takes one look at them and just like 1:54:09.040 --> 1:54:12.439 dead pan is like they're cops and it's the funniest 1:54:12.439 --> 1:54:14.880 part of the movie. And I just like laugh off 1:54:14.880 --> 1:54:18.240 off um and then Danny DeVito comes in and calls 1:54:18.280 --> 1:54:25.240 them surfer dudes and male strippers, which is like, but again, 1:54:25.280 --> 1:54:28.400 that's sort of like confronting. He's like, he's like picture 1:54:28.479 --> 1:54:34.600 of his own masculinity. Like, right, you know, he's anti surfer, 1:54:36.200 --> 1:54:39.360 anti surfer dudes and male strippers, surfer dude masculinity. We 1:54:39.440 --> 1:54:42.960 gotta talk about it. Um, we've already covered point break, 1:54:43.080 --> 1:54:49.080 Um that surfer dude cops do. Yeah, but yeah, this 1:54:49.120 --> 1:54:52.160 movie is not pro cop which is saying a lot 1:54:52.200 --> 1:54:55.040 for a movie from the nineties. I want to believe 1:54:55.080 --> 1:54:59.920 that's the inner Danny DeVito to I do I do to, 1:55:00.160 --> 1:55:03.160 And I also love that, Like you know, in my 1:55:03.240 --> 1:55:06.040 head canon of like what happens to Matilda later is 1:55:06.120 --> 1:55:11.680 she flourishes as a BiCon and is like, you know, 1:55:11.880 --> 1:55:14.640 totally at protests with a sign that's like a cab 1:55:15.200 --> 1:55:19.760 you know, Wilson rules. I mean, because that's who she 1:55:20.000 --> 1:55:22.320 is too, Like, that's what she's doing in real life, 1:55:22.600 --> 1:55:26.160 exactly similar, I imagine, I would hope a similar trajectory. 1:55:26.200 --> 1:55:30.560 It's like Mario Wilson, but if she still had magical powers, yeah, exactly, 1:55:31.720 --> 1:55:34.200 which she might. You know, Yeah, we have to ask 1:55:34.240 --> 1:55:41.880 her um, does this movie pass the Bechdel tests? For sure? 1:55:44.200 --> 1:55:46.640 Lots lots of lots between a lot of different combinations 1:55:46.680 --> 1:55:51.240 of characters. As far as our nipple scale zero to 1:55:51.320 --> 1:55:56.040 five nipples based on how the movie fares. Looking at 1:55:56.040 --> 1:55:59.760 it through an intersectional feminist lens, this one is tricky 1:56:00.080 --> 1:56:04.400 has while it's doing some good things as far as 1:56:04.440 --> 1:56:08.200 it's kind of like themes and more like the moral 1:56:08.280 --> 1:56:12.320 statement the movie is making and and how so many 1:56:12.520 --> 1:56:19.240 people just took positive messaging away from the movie. Uh, 1:56:19.280 --> 1:56:21.800 it is kind of overshadowed by the fact that a 1:56:21.800 --> 1:56:25.560 lot of the ways in which that messaging gets across 1:56:25.720 --> 1:56:34.720 is relying on harmful, fat phobic, classist, elitist, homophobic tropes. 1:56:36.440 --> 1:56:39.600 With that in mind, I feel like I to me, 1:56:39.680 --> 1:56:40.960 it is going to have to be one of those 1:56:40.960 --> 1:56:43.400 like split down the middle movies, where like it's doing 1:56:43.440 --> 1:56:48.400 good stuff but by way of bad stuff. So yeah, 1:56:48.520 --> 1:56:49.840 I think I can only give it two and a 1:56:49.880 --> 1:56:52.920 half nipples. I do. We didn't touch on this really, 1:56:52.960 --> 1:56:55.160 but I do love the kind of theme or like 1:56:55.200 --> 1:57:00.160 the interpretation of like the Chosen Family narrative, and like 1:57:00.400 --> 1:57:04.320 that thing is really sweet. I love just again, how 1:57:04.600 --> 1:57:10.080 like valuing a little girl learning and um, you know, 1:57:10.240 --> 1:57:12.560 just like having a thirst for knowledge is something that 1:57:12.560 --> 1:57:16.960 I think is important to see, especially when the movie 1:57:17.000 --> 1:57:20.880 is directed at children. But yeah, it's a lot of 1:57:20.920 --> 1:57:27.040 like of the time, nineties era problematic stuff. So two 1:57:27.040 --> 1:57:30.640 and a half nipples, I will give one tomorrow Wilson, 1:57:31.520 --> 1:57:36.520 one to Pam Ferris, and one to the poor cat 1:57:36.800 --> 1:57:42.120 who is kicked by trunch bowl. Looks like fly, looks 1:57:42.120 --> 1:57:46.640 like fly hit it hit and does have eight nipples there. 1:57:46.640 --> 1:57:55.040 I brought cat facts back a very special appearances. I'll 1:57:55.040 --> 1:57:57.160 meet you at at two and a half. I think 1:57:57.200 --> 1:58:01.800 that there's this movie. I mean it's like it's it's 1:58:01.840 --> 1:58:05.000 tough because it's like we've talked about this whole episode. 1:58:05.120 --> 1:58:07.840 There is a lot of heart and I think good 1:58:07.880 --> 1:58:10.360 intent at the core of this movie. And and that 1:58:10.800 --> 1:58:16.120 really does make a ton of difference. However, I mean, 1:58:16.440 --> 1:58:20.560 starting from the person who wrote the story, it wouldn't 1:58:21.080 --> 1:58:25.920 with whom there's a trend of baggage attached. And um, 1:58:26.000 --> 1:58:29.000 you know, his prejudice is kind of being difficult to 1:58:29.640 --> 1:58:33.680 remove it impossible in some ways. To remove from his 1:58:33.760 --> 1:58:37.640 own material is basically impossible. And so we see these 1:58:37.800 --> 1:58:42.480 homophobic tendencies that you know are also inherent to the nineties, 1:58:42.520 --> 1:58:48.000 like the homophobia, the fat phobia, the symbolic inclusion of 1:58:48.040 --> 1:58:51.120 people of color. But the characters could be caught out 1:58:51.160 --> 1:58:54.920 easily and don't have stories of their own. And so 1:58:55.040 --> 1:59:00.919 while I love Matilda and I do love the message 1:59:01.000 --> 1:59:03.400 at the core of her and Miss Honey's relationship and 1:59:03.480 --> 1:59:08.520 story of chosen family of adults listening to and taking 1:59:08.600 --> 1:59:11.680 children seriously, which is just always a message I respond 1:59:11.760 --> 1:59:16.200 really strongly to, and and everyone's life improving as a 1:59:16.240 --> 1:59:20.080 result of listening to children and taking them seriously. There's 1:59:20.120 --> 1:59:24.120 so much good. And then the tools used to arrive 1:59:24.280 --> 1:59:28.200 at that very good conclusion are just very loaded and 1:59:28.320 --> 1:59:32.240 very harmful in many ways. So two and a half. 1:59:32.920 --> 1:59:37.680 I will give one to Matilda, I will give one 1:59:37.840 --> 1:59:41.920 to the Bengo Jacket, and I will give the last 1:59:42.280 --> 1:59:48.960 half to Lavender. Um, I'm right there with you, with 1:59:49.000 --> 1:59:51.320 both of you. As much as I love this film, 1:59:51.320 --> 1:59:52.600 and as much as I sort of joked at the 1:59:52.600 --> 1:59:56.080 beginning that like I, I I feel like it is very 1:59:56.080 --> 1:59:58.000 informed of like the person that I have become, Like 1:59:58.120 --> 2:00:02.040 a lot of this stuff that I take like as 2:00:02.120 --> 2:00:05.400 good from the film is stuff that like I'm bringing 2:00:05.400 --> 2:00:09.240 to it now and not like stuff that's necessarily in there. 2:00:09.280 --> 2:00:11.440 And we do that a lot as as you know. 2:00:12.520 --> 2:00:14.760 I think it is like queer and gender diverse people. 2:00:14.960 --> 2:00:18.640 You know, for a really long time, stories weren't made 2:00:18.720 --> 2:00:22.000 about us. And so you know when we get like 2:00:22.040 --> 2:00:24.680 a queer villain like trench Ball, and we get like 2:00:24.720 --> 2:00:27.400 a queer story like this, because I still think Matilda 2:00:27.520 --> 2:00:31.440 like Zinny is basically in drag the whole time. Um, 2:00:31.480 --> 2:00:34.400 there are like no male love interests, Like this is 2:00:34.440 --> 2:00:38.480 a very queer story. And but like that wasn't put there, 2:00:38.520 --> 2:00:42.200 I don't think intentionally. I think that is like interpretation 2:00:42.280 --> 2:00:46.400 coming like after the fact. Um. And yeah, the chosen 2:00:46.440 --> 2:00:50.560 family side of things is wonderful. And I would say 2:00:50.760 --> 2:00:54.280 to anybody who might be out there and feeling like 2:00:55.040 --> 2:00:58.120 they are not appreciated by their family or they are 2:00:58.200 --> 2:01:00.720 not being loved and nurtured way that they need to 2:01:00.760 --> 2:01:03.920 be that like, sometimes the people you are related to 2:01:03.920 --> 2:01:06.560 you can't do that for you, and you can find 2:01:06.560 --> 2:01:10.600 other people who who will love you and appreciate you. 2:01:10.640 --> 2:01:13.320 Like those people are out there, and you should never 2:01:13.360 --> 2:01:18.880 hesitate to seek out your chosen family because yeah, you know, 2:01:18.960 --> 2:01:22.440 like you deserve that, you deserve to be left and nurtured. Um, 2:01:22.520 --> 2:01:27.960 so two and a half nipples I will give. Oh man, 2:01:28.480 --> 2:01:31.160 now we just want nipples on the Bingo jacket somewhere. 2:01:31.560 --> 2:01:35.040 So I feel like, you know what I feel like. 2:01:35.080 --> 2:01:39.200 I will give a nipple to Maura Wilson because not 2:01:39.240 --> 2:01:41.160 only is she incredible in this movie. Not only is 2:01:41.200 --> 2:01:44.160 she incredible now, but she was also like in the 2:01:44.160 --> 2:01:46.640 process of losing her mom during this whole thing, as 2:01:46.680 --> 2:01:49.320 a you know, and as a kid. I can't imagine 2:01:49.320 --> 2:01:53.080 what kind of like stress that is so huge. One 2:01:53.160 --> 2:01:56.839 nipple for Mara. Um, I would give my other nipple 2:01:56.920 --> 2:02:01.760 to pan Fist as well. She's amazing and she did 2:02:01.760 --> 2:02:03.920 such a fantastic job in this film just being such 2:02:03.960 --> 2:02:07.600 a hammy camp villa in I hope there's somebody out 2:02:07.640 --> 2:02:09.880 there who does trunch bowl drag. I'm going to look 2:02:09.920 --> 2:02:12.880 it up. I bet there is. I'm gonna I'm gonna 2:02:12.920 --> 2:02:14.960 look it up, and if not, I am going to 2:02:15.920 --> 2:02:20.040 it's your time to shine exactly. And then my last 2:02:20.040 --> 2:02:25.520 half nipple, um, my last half nipple hasco that Bengo jacket. 2:02:25.520 --> 2:02:28.360 I'm going to recreate that Bengo jacket. I know, I 2:02:28.760 --> 2:02:31.520 feel like there should be we have to contact Superyarchy 2:02:31.640 --> 2:02:36.120 stat there should be repros of of the Bengo jacket, 2:02:36.400 --> 2:02:40.800 or we should have like a like a crafternoon. That 2:02:40.840 --> 2:02:44.120 would be so fun. Oh my god, this is the 2:02:44.160 --> 2:02:49.400 first time I'm hearing this expression. Crafternoon. Yes, and it's 2:02:49.640 --> 2:02:54.280 changed my life. Imagine the time we're going to save. Absolutely, 2:02:55.840 --> 2:02:59.720 crafternoons are great. Well, Jess, thank you so much for 2:03:00.040 --> 2:03:03.920 coming back and for this bringing a wonderful discussion that 2:03:04.040 --> 2:03:07.680 was a pleasure. Where can people follow your stuff, check 2:03:07.680 --> 2:03:13.040 out your stuff online, support you, etcetera. Um So, the 2:03:13.080 --> 2:03:15.920 best way, the best place to find me is at 2:03:16.160 --> 2:03:21.040 rad Babe on Instagram and it's like underscore rad Underscore 2:03:21.040 --> 2:03:24.000 Babe Underscore. Anyway, if you search Jeff Marilyn, you'll find 2:03:24.000 --> 2:03:28.240 me on Instagram. Um. I didn't think about the branding 2:03:28.240 --> 2:03:32.680 when I chose the name. Okay uh and I'm I'm 2:03:32.680 --> 2:03:36.120 always out there in the world doing doing queer stuff, 2:03:36.160 --> 2:03:42.120 doing in indigit queer stuff, doing fat stuff, doing movie stuff. 2:03:42.400 --> 2:03:43.880 Um So that's the best way to find me in 2:03:43.880 --> 2:03:46.520 to to follow me. Um if you happen to be 2:03:46.520 --> 2:03:49.720 in Montreal. Right now, the Cedar t Project, which is 2:03:49.760 --> 2:03:55.120 a black and Indigenous solidarity project especially for street involved folks, 2:03:55.880 --> 2:03:59.200 is doing a fundraiser, so you can check them out 2:03:59.280 --> 2:04:01.960 on Facebook at the Theater Tea Project if you're looking 2:04:01.960 --> 2:04:04.960 for something to support UM. I also have their information 2:04:05.120 --> 2:04:08.400 up on my Instagram, so that's why you can find me. 2:04:08.480 --> 2:04:11.440 I have a film that I made, a documentary called 2:04:11.480 --> 2:04:14.080 Love is the First Sacred Lesson that is going to 2:04:14.080 --> 2:04:16.480 be playing some film festivals this fall, so keep an 2:04:16.520 --> 2:04:20.040 eye up for that. Congratulations, Thank you, thank you. I'm 2:04:20.120 --> 2:04:23.240 very excited because it takes so long to make films 2:04:23.400 --> 2:04:26.720 and then you know, you're like, I don't really want 2:04:26.760 --> 2:04:29.960 to have anything to do with it anymore, so put 2:04:29.960 --> 2:04:33.080 it out in the world. No, no, I this this 2:04:33.120 --> 2:04:34.560 film is really really close to my heart in a 2:04:34.560 --> 2:04:36.400 lot a lot of ways, so I'm excited for people 2:04:36.400 --> 2:04:39.360 to see it. Wonderful. Thank you so much for being 2:04:39.360 --> 2:04:42.560 here again. Whenever you want to come back, bring us 2:04:42.560 --> 2:04:44.920 another movie and we'll talk more. Oh absolutely, And you guys, 2:04:44.960 --> 2:04:46.960 you know, come to Montreal now that like things are 2:04:47.000 --> 2:04:53.160 opening up a little bit, like well craft, dude, baby, Absolutely, 2:04:53.840 --> 2:05:01.560 and we'll eat bagels and you know speak French. Carolyn 2:05:01.600 --> 2:05:03.680 and I are always doing that, so it's just gonna 2:05:03.680 --> 2:05:06.760 be another day for us, right, It's gonna be amazing. 2:05:08.640 --> 2:05:12.360 You can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Becktel Cast. 2:05:12.440 --> 2:05:17.400 You can subscribe to our Patreon ak Matreon. It's five 2:05:17.440 --> 2:05:19.600 dollars a month. It gets you access to two bonus 2:05:19.680 --> 2:05:23.320 episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog, which is 2:05:24.000 --> 2:05:27.000 over one hundred bonus episodes at this point, so there's 2:05:27.160 --> 2:05:29.360 lots of stuff to go through. It's a good time 2:05:29.400 --> 2:05:32.720 to join um. You can also get our merch at 2:05:33.320 --> 2:05:36.160 dot com Slage The Bechtel Cast, follow your heart, do 2:05:36.200 --> 2:05:38.160 it or don't do it, We won't know either way. 2:05:38.200 --> 2:05:40.120 But if you want some stuff, that's where you can 2:05:40.160 --> 2:05:44.880 get some stuff. And with that, seems like we've gotten 2:05:44.920 --> 2:05:50.400 pretty adequately sticky this episode. I'm extremely sticky, very stick 2:05:50.640 --> 2:05:59.040 Never been stickier sticky with discourse. That is wow. Whoa okay, 2:05:59.080 --> 2:06:00.200 bye bye ye