1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: On theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 2 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 2: You are as possible, and. 3 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 1: The iron heel of oppression is everywhere. It has reached 4 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:35,959 Speaker 1: every section of this country, and every black citizen has 5 00:00:36,040 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: a duty to perform. Cultured men and women of color 6 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: and convention assembled sit in silence while one side of 7 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,120 Speaker 1: this burning question is discussed, the white side, and we 8 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: are solemnly impressed with the magnitude of our wickedness and 9 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: hopeless depravity by partisan white and colored speakers. It has 10 00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: reached the past where the educated black will handle any 11 00:00:56,840 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: subject in his assemblies. But Politics South and its friends 12 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,560 Speaker 1: have said, not a word of complaint, no talk of lynching, 13 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: not an offensive word, or it will go hard with you, 14 00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: and the race leaders have bowed to that decree an 15 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,560 Speaker 1: abject submission. What are we going to do about it? 16 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: Stick to principle? 17 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 2: Katie? 18 00:01:18,080 --> 00:01:19,959 Speaker 1: Do you have a guest as to when that quote 19 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: I just read was written? 20 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:24,039 Speaker 3: Based on the subject matter, it could have been written 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 3: today based on how it's written, I can tell you 22 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 3: know what is not an Instagram. 23 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:32,600 Speaker 2: Post fair very fair well. 24 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: It was self published in nineteen oh five, but definitely 25 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,399 Speaker 1: the subtitle of the pamphlet that this quote comes from 26 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,040 Speaker 1: is super long, but in short, it's titled A Primer 27 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: of Facts. This part and other parts of that study 28 00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: feel like they could have been plucked from the present 29 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 1: and is by our Woman of the Hour, I'm Katie 30 00:01:54,960 --> 00:02:00,960 Speaker 1: and I'm Eves today's episode Rediscovering the Pauline Hopkins. Katie, 31 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,280 Speaker 1: I love stories about black writers whose legacies were buried 32 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: by time and then unearthed by dedicated scholars. 33 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 3: You know I do too. There's so much promise and 34 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 3: possibility in the fact that there have been and will 35 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 3: be more Black writers whose work will be given new life. 36 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:19,440 Speaker 2: And we are better for it. 37 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: We're also fortunate because a lot of the time that 38 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 1: work is lost, and a lot of Pauline Hopkins's work 39 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 1: and words survive. But sadly, Pauline died tragically after being 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 1: injured in a fire. But she was seventy one when 41 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: she died, so she got to live a life that 42 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 1: was pretty full of artistic exploration. She acted, sang, and 43 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: she wrote plays, short stories and novels. She was also 44 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: an editor for the Colored American Magazine, which was, by 45 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: its own definition and illustrated monthly devoted to literature science, music, art, religion, facts, fiction, 46 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: and traditions of. 47 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 2: The Negro race. It's a lot earth everything. 48 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: And she wrote biographical sketches of famous Black people in 49 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: the magazine, and she helped build its connections to Payan 50 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 1: African intellectuals and its interest in global issues. 51 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 3: And she published some short stories and serialized her novels 52 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:13,399 Speaker 3: in the magazine. 53 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: Right, yeah, she did plenty of them. Her novels Hagard's Daughter, 54 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 1: a story of Southern cast prejudiced and Winona, a tale 55 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: of Negro life in the South and Southwest, and lastly 56 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: of One Blood or the Hidden Self were all serialized 57 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: in the magazine. And if you can't tell what type 58 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: of time she was on by the quote from earlier 59 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: or the titles of her novels, Pauline's fiction was about 60 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: the struggles that Black Americans had to go through because 61 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 1: of our race. They were about slavery and reconstruction and 62 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: division between the North and the South, and they were 63 00:03:44,720 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: about understanding the pain and horror of our past to 64 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: move forward as a race and as a country. 65 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 3: Pauline was clearly prolific and a woman of many gifts. 66 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: Would you say her work put her squarely in the 67 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 3: camp of literary pioneers. 68 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. She did her fair share of 69 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: trailblazing when she was in her twenties. In the eighteen seventies, 70 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: she became the first Black woman to write and star 71 00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:09,520 Speaker 1: in her own dramatic work, a musical play called Slave's 72 00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: Escape or the Underground Railroad. The play was later retitled 73 00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: Peculiar Sam. Her book Contending Forces, a romance illustrative of 74 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: Negro life North and South, was published in October of 75 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:23,599 Speaker 1: nineteen hundred and it was the first twentieth century novel 76 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: by a Black American woman. Pauline constantly connected romance and 77 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: politics in her fiction. As Lois Brown says in her 78 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 1: two thousand and eight book Pauline Elizabeth Hopkins, Black Daughter 79 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: of the Revolution, Pauline quote used sentimental romance to advance 80 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 1: her campaign for racial justice, and the Colored American has 81 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: its own fascinating history. It was one of the first, 82 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: if not the first, magazine devoted to Black American arts, literature, 83 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 1: and culture in the United States, and Pauline was the 84 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: only woman on staff when it launched. And then Take 85 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: Hagar's Daughter, which was published serially from nineteen oh one 86 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,520 Speaker 1: to nineteen oh two. It made her the first known 87 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: Blackmai woman to publish a work of detective fiction. It 88 00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: also made her the creator of the first known Black 89 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:10,839 Speaker 1: American female detective. All of Pauline's fiction, nonfiction, and editorial 90 00:05:10,880 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: work with the magazine helped grow her status and recognition 91 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: in black literary and activist circles. Her work did get 92 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: some criticism, though more on that After the Break, some 93 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: people considered Pauline an agitator. They were critical of the 94 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: candidness with which she talked about taboo subjects like sexual violence, 95 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: of her frank condemnation of practices like lynching and imperialism, 96 00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 1: her clarity in linking issues of race with issues of class, 97 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 1: and her refusal to mince words in her expression. There 98 00:05:50,680 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: were folks who were not a fan of how defiant 99 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,279 Speaker 1: and outspoken she was in her mission to uplift the race, 100 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 1: and on the other side of the coin, some of 101 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: our faith eves flamed her. 102 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:05,040 Speaker 2: We love to see some hate, don't we? 103 00:06:06,360 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: Poet Gwendolyn Brooks, Okay, she has some choice words about 104 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: Pauline and the afterward. To the nineteen seventy eight reprint 105 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 1: of Contending Forces, Brooks says this often doth the brainwashed 106 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: slave revere the modes and idolatries of the master, and 107 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: Pauline Hopkins consistently proves herself a continuing slave despite little 108 00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: bursts of righteous heat throughout Contending Forces. 109 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, she ate her. 110 00:06:35,839 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: It really is to call someone. 111 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 3: A slave, continuing slave. 112 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: They weren't that far away from times of slavery either. 113 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,599 Speaker 3: Wait what what I'm trying to think? What year was that? 114 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: Did she write continu. 115 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 1: Oh no, this this, she didn't write. Contending Forces came 116 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 1: out in the early nineteen hundreds. 117 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 3: And then this was a reprint. Yes, this is an 118 00:06:56,120 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 3: afterward to their reprint. Because Pauline Hopkins herself when she 119 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:01,799 Speaker 3: was alive, wasn't it wasn't that far away? She wrote 120 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 3: in afterwards of her. 121 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: Book, isn't that Yes, says that, yes, that's crazy, that 122 00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 2: it's shady. 123 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,000 Speaker 1: But it feels like it's a backwards compliment in a way, 124 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: because well, no, it's not a backwards compliment. I meant 125 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: that the other way around. It's a criticism first, and 126 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: then she tries to tackle on a little bit of 127 00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:23,239 Speaker 1: the compliment where at the end, where she says, despite 128 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: little bursts of righteous heat, girl, it's shady though, you 129 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: know it's shady. 130 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,320 Speaker 3: No, somebody did that to me, I literally writes out 131 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 3: of my grave. 132 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let. 133 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:39,280 Speaker 1: It be known to all people who have plans of 134 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 1: flaming Katie in the future after her books come out. 135 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 3: No, because whoever is in charge of her estate was 136 00:07:44,400 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 3: like they approve that. 137 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, to be fair, I don't know who's or has 138 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: been in charge of her estate, so I'm not sure 139 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: how tight they were about like making sure that everything 140 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: goes out is buttoned. 141 00:07:54,680 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 3: Up clearly, not at all? 142 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 1: Right, And sometimes Pauline did use a pen name so 143 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: she didn't have to catch all of that heat. Two 144 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: pseudonyms she used repeatedly were Sarah A. Allen, her mother's name, 145 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: and Jay Shirley Shadrag Shadrag Menkins was the name of 146 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: a man who escaped slavery, was captured under the Fugitive 147 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 1: Slave Law, and was later freed by black folks. His 148 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: story was a well known one in Boston, and Hopkins 149 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,720 Speaker 1: once wrote about him in a profile of abolitionist Lewis Hayden. 150 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,640 Speaker 1: In cases where she wrote about touchy subjects like interracial marriage, 151 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt's presidency, and the moral ills of white society. 152 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: She chose to use one of her pen names, but 153 00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 1: it wasn't always about dodging the ire of benefactors and 154 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:45,199 Speaker 1: people who had more conventional opinions. Sometimes using a pseudonym 155 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: meant that she could squeeze more of her work into one. 156 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 2: Issue of The Colored American. Why are you laughing? 157 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 3: I love a innovative queen. She's practical, right, she was like, Yes, 158 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: Sarah A. Allen wrote this, Jare she's drag and probably Hopkins. 159 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, all three different women. I know. I do love that. 160 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: I think that that wasn't an uncommon thing to do 161 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:12,679 Speaker 1: at the time, you know, But I think it's funny because. 162 00:09:12,440 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 2: It allowed her to write more. 163 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 1: But it also makes me wonder, like, were there not 164 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: other people that could write for the magazine, that could 165 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 1: like have stuff that would be good as well to 166 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 1: be placed in it. 167 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 3: They're definitely worried, but it's probably much harder to get 168 00:09:25,960 --> 00:09:29,280 Speaker 3: to people in the early nineteen hundreds. I imagine even 169 00:09:29,280 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 3: the literacy rate was probably very low. 170 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fair. 171 00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 3: So she did what she had to do. She put 172 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 3: the whole magazine on her back. 173 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: Indeed, and in general, pen names were common in the 174 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 1: early nineteen hundreds, so they were often used in the 175 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: Colored American even by people outside of Pauline, and in 176 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,720 Speaker 1: other black publications as well. Authors would hide behind different 177 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: identities if they had recognizable names, were divulging personal information 178 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,199 Speaker 1: in their writing, or if they wanted to fill out 179 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: the response to their writing before publishing their own name 180 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: on it. 181 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: That's fair too, you know. I feel like I wish 182 00:10:05,320 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: we had the leeway to do stuff like this. What 183 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 2: you mean you think so? 184 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess so, because you can really publish anywhere 185 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:14,679 Speaker 1: and self published so easily these days. They'll find out 186 00:10:14,720 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: who it was, though, the people. 187 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 3: Will you know that book Autobiography of ex color Man. Yeah, 188 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 3: so James wald and Johnson wrote it, but he made 189 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 3: it like it was a true autobiography when it's really 190 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:29,760 Speaker 3: a novel and was like, oh yeah, like I didn't 191 00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 3: write that it was this man's story. But of course 192 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: people found him out. But I like people were just 193 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,079 Speaker 3: like just silly, goofy mood. 194 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: Good. 195 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, like this is performance art as well. 196 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:45,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. 197 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: The thing about Pauline's work, though, is that it was 198 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: sometimes fun and fantastical. There was romance, science fiction, mystery, 199 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: and supernatural elements. Of One Blood, for instance, has been 200 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: called an afro futurist novel. It's about a midst race 201 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: medical student who travels to a magically hidden city in 202 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:12,720 Speaker 1: northeastern Africa. It's got ghosts, secret treasures, racial passing, murder, revenge, 203 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 1: and incest. Now, it wouldn't be seen as that risk 204 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: a by modern standards, but I mean on paper, it's 205 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,800 Speaker 1: sounding like a fantasy drama that any of the major TV. 206 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:23,800 Speaker 2: Networks would compete for. 207 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,359 Speaker 1: Pauline left behind a lot of evidence of her ideology 208 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: and working life, and a lot less about her personal life. 209 00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:32,560 Speaker 2: And unfortunately, her. 210 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: Story follows the trajectory that a lot of nineteenth and 211 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: twentieth century Black intellectuals do. Researchers and historians have pieced 212 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,439 Speaker 1: together the chronology of her life over the last several decades, 213 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,000 Speaker 1: bringing it back to light after it fell into the 214 00:11:47,040 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 1: shadows of literary history. 215 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: This is why I love digging through the archives. There's 216 00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:54,640 Speaker 3: so much treasure in there, so many hidden stories that 217 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 3: we should be documenting, repeating and cherity. 218 00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 1: And some of the good folks who did that were 219 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:04,079 Speaker 1: folks like doctor Claudia Tate, doctor Mary Helen Washington, and 220 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: Fisk University, a librarian and scholar, and Alan Shockley. She 221 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:11,840 Speaker 1: wrote the nineteen seventy two essay Pauline Elizabeth Hopkins, a 222 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: biographical Excursion into Obscurity. Now there are a ton of essays, articles, 223 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: and other scholarship on Pauline's life. Pauline's book Contending Forces 224 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:24,440 Speaker 1: was reprinted in nineteen seventy eight as part of the 225 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: Southern Illinois University Presses Lost American Fiction Series, and in 226 00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty eight her writing was included in an Oxford 227 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: University Press in Schoenberg Library series on nineteenth century Black 228 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,440 Speaker 1: women Writers that was edited by Henry Lewis Gates Junior. 229 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: And then there is the Pauline Elizabeth Hopkins Society, which 230 00:12:43,280 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 1: celebrates her life, work and legacy through publications, conferences, and 231 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:48,680 Speaker 1: programs that they put together. 232 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 2: And on top of. 233 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,360 Speaker 1: All that, her novels of One Blood and Haygard's Daughter 234 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 1: were reissued in twenty twenty. Pauline worked on a couple 235 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:58,720 Speaker 1: of issues of a new black publication called New Era 236 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: Magazine in nineteen six, but that magazine went busted pretty quickly, 237 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:06,079 Speaker 1: and information about her life and work after that year 238 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: is available, but it's not as robust as it is 239 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: for prior years. You'd be excited to know, though Katie 240 00:13:12,559 --> 00:13:15,439 Speaker 1: as a lover of hating and all things contentious, that 241 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 1: there is a potential beef in her story. 242 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 3: Ooh, let's get into it. 243 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 2: I got you after the break. 244 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 1: So, as you know, Katie, black folks had different ideas 245 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: about what black people needed to do to progress in 246 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,320 Speaker 1: the US, and Pauline was about denouncing white folks for 247 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:45,600 Speaker 1: anti black violence and demanding rights, especially voting rights. Do 248 00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,319 Speaker 1: you remember that pamphlet I quoted a primer of facts. Well, 249 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: its last sentence is never give up the ballot. So yeah, 250 00:13:53,559 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: she wasn't really about being conciliatory and conservative. Her writing 251 00:13:57,440 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 1: in the Colored American magazine was often anti c coommodationist. 252 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,439 Speaker 1: It's what we may call today hot takes that could 253 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 1: upset the whites because a significant chunk of their readership 254 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 1: was white. But as the magazine went through financial struggles 255 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 1: and leadership changes, Pauline was asked to tone it down. 256 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: Pauline said this in a nineteen oh five letter to 257 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: William Monroe Trotter, the editor of The Boston Guardian. He 258 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: told me there must not be a word on lynching, 259 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: no mention of our wrongs as a race, nothing that 260 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: would be offensive to the South. The he she was 261 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: referring to was John Freund, the magazine's white patron, who 262 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:37,560 Speaker 1: wanted to silence the progressive civil rights sentiments that Hopkins 263 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: championed in the magazine. 264 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 3: Sounds familiar. It's a lot like the patron in Zorn 265 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: neil Herson's story some drama that we talked about in 266 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,520 Speaker 3: our previous episode, which twenty of y'all want beef. But 267 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,800 Speaker 3: with this guy, I'm struck because, like magazines are more 268 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 3: non fiction based, and so he's literally trying to like 269 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 3: take out a big part of history, like no talk 270 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 3: on lynching. Yeah, well heart lichings are happening, so you 271 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 3: just want that removed from the historical record. 272 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: Right. 273 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: It's like this magazine is about art, religion, everything that's 274 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: happening with black people, and that is included, whether or 275 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: not you like it. 276 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a big part of what's going on. 277 00:15:15,560 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the people are not fooled by this. It 278 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: also seems like a herculean task. The people who are 279 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: reading this magazine were already used to the kind of 280 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: work they were putting out, which means they already wrote 281 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: a certain way. 282 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 3: And they're aware of what's going on. Yeah, you get 283 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 3: trick this right. 284 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 1: They were tinting their fingers like like, hmmm, I have 285 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 1: an idea. 286 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's quite silly. 287 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: Yes it was. 288 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,880 Speaker 1: So it's not exactly a beef because she doesn't call 289 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: out Booker T. Washington by name or even confront him 290 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: face to face or letter to letter, but in her 291 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: work she indirectly and directly challenged his approach to racial progress, 292 00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: which called for self help and vocational education while denouncing agitation. 293 00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: With help from Booker T. Washington, Fred R. Moore purchased 294 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 1: the Colored American magazine in nineteen oh four, and the 295 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: content took a turn toward business. 296 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 2: Rather than literature and culture. 297 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: So basically it worked and the magazine became way less 298 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: politically risky. Within months of Washington taking over, Pauline was 299 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 1: forced out under circumstances that scholars have since speculated about. 300 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: An announcement in the November nineteen oh four issue said 301 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: that Pauline quit the magazine because of ill health and 302 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: moved back home to Boston, but the announcement was definitely 303 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: giving pr statement. Here's how they ended it. Miss Hopkins 304 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: was a faithful and conscientious worker and did much toward 305 00:16:39,320 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: the building up the magazine. We take this means of 306 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: expressing our appreciation of her services and wished for her 307 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: a speedy return to complete health. W. E. B. Du 308 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 1: Bois had an essay called The Colored Magazine in America 309 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: in the November nineteen twelve issue of The Crisis. In it, 310 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 1: he said that folks at the magazine told her she 311 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: wasn't conciliatory enough. Some scholars say it was a necessary 312 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: dismissal as the magazine's content changed, But anyway it goes, 313 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: Pauline definitely didn't put Washington on a pedestal, and she 314 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:13,160 Speaker 1: made that known. And I have to say that I'm 315 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: cackling because, by all accounts, once the magazine got less radical, 316 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: it also got dry and started tumbling downhill. 317 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I can see that if you have this platform 318 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 3: where you expouse these values, and just because one person 319 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,680 Speaker 3: becomes involved and they just want to put all their 320 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 3: like conservative values, like make your own magazine. There's other 321 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 3: conservative people who probably want to hear what you're saying, 322 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,200 Speaker 3: but not these people who are used to a different politic. 323 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,479 Speaker 3: So I feel like conservatives do that a lot. They 324 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 3: co opt radical things like we have Black lives matter, 325 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 3: then they want to have blue lives matter. You know, 326 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 3: people who are for reproductive justice say like my body, 327 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,000 Speaker 3: my choice, and then people who are very anti reproductive 328 00:17:57,080 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 3: justice but like don't want to take a COVID vaccine 329 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 3: or like my body my chol like maybe get your 330 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 3: own phrase. Black people will say say her name, and 331 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 3: then white people want to say say her name like 332 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 3: no original. 333 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 2: Thought, no, not at all. 334 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 3: It's like, hm, why is that? Why can't they think? 335 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:17,920 Speaker 3: But it's like, you have your views, so why don't 336 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 3: you just talk about your views in your original way? 337 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 3: But I think what it is is like conservatives and 338 00:18:23,240 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 3: not really saying this about Booker T. Washington in particular, 339 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: but I think conservatives are always like in opposition to 340 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 3: your like freedom and autonomy and your liberation. So anything 341 00:18:35,359 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 3: in the opposition of that they're they're down for, like 342 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 3: we found your doory six my favorite topic they do. 343 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 3: They don't really like the police, y'all killed the police. 344 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 3: Letting the dad killed the police, then it would have 345 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 3: been blue lives matter. But you mad about something, so 346 00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 3: you get the American flag and start stabbing the police 347 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 3: with it. So it's like you don't really care, You're 348 00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 3: just you just don't like black people. You just don't 349 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 3: like black people's freedom, you don't like black people being 350 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 3: into literature and science and culture, and so you just 351 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 3: want to take it. I feel like that's the through 352 00:19:04,040 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 3: line with like a lot of the conservatives like co 353 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:10,000 Speaker 3: opting like radical or like war leftists talking points. 354 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's more about the snatching away of the thing 355 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,560 Speaker 1: than them having a point to prove on their own. 356 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 1: I mean that's how it's always been. It's like we 357 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 1: take your family, we take all your cultural touch points, 358 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 1: we take your language. 359 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and like water it down and then are like 360 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 3: confused why it's not hitting the same. 361 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like you should have foresaw this. 362 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 1: Alas, and there are many more pieces to Pauline's puzzle 363 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,479 Speaker 1: that have yet to be found, but the rediscovery of 364 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: her legacy is an ongoing labor of love, and there 365 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: are still plenty of people on the job. And like 366 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 1: I said earlier, the thing that I love about Pauline 367 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: Hopkins is that so much of what she had to 368 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 1: say rings true today. Take this other quote from a 369 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 1: primer of facts. The propaganda of silence is in full force. 370 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,119 Speaker 1: Newspapers and magazines have been subsidized or destroyed. If the 371 00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: editors fearlessly advocated the cause of humanity, every leading intellect 372 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: has been intimidated. While per contrary, a horde of Southern writers, speakers, 373 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,120 Speaker 1: and politicians are allowed to fill the air with their 374 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: doleful clamor against a proscribed race without a protest. Agitation 375 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: by the black is rigidly barred, but the Southern white 376 00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 1: is allowed the front of the stage in presenting his 377 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: grievances to a sympathetic public. Now that could have been 378 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 1: in today exactly. 379 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, it feels so precient because she's talking about media too, 380 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 3: and media has changed a lot from her time, But 381 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 3: the same exact thing is still happening. Yes, the same censorship, 382 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,639 Speaker 3: trusted sources are still disappearing. Then there's just an attack 383 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 3: in general on journalism. I mean, speaking of conservatives so 384 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 3: frequently say journalism doesn't mean anything today because they don't 385 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:59,640 Speaker 3: like it. So I really appreciate that about Pauline's work. 386 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:03,120 Speaker 3: Like we've talked about before, it's unfortunate that we're still 387 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:05,520 Speaker 3: going through the same things and talking about the same things. 388 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 2: But I like how much of a balance. 389 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: It feels like it is in Pauline's work and her 390 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: editorial work, and also in her novels and how they 391 00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 1: were still so fanciful and so imaginative and people were 392 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: there was time traveling, there were different kinds of worlds, 393 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: you know, and at the same time she was dealing 394 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: with issues of race. And yeah, I think that people 395 00:21:29,560 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: should check out some of her novels and her essays 396 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: and her short stories too if they get a chance, 397 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,600 Speaker 1: because a lot of the Colored American Magazine is online 398 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: for you to be able to read her work and 399 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 1: just get an understanding of like how she thought. 400 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 3: And they can read Sarah A. Allen's work as well. 401 00:21:46,960 --> 00:21:49,119 Speaker 2: They can read Sarah A. Allen's work exactly. 402 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,679 Speaker 3: And now it is time for role credits, a segment 403 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 3: where we give credit to a person, place, or thing 404 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 3: that we encountered during the week eves. Who are what 405 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 3: would you like to give credit to? 406 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 1: I would like to give credit to the black chefs. 407 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,440 Speaker 1: I was having a conversation the other day with this 408 00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: owner of a restaurant and chef who had a bunch 409 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,680 Speaker 1: of free stuff outside of his restaurant. 410 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 2: Because the business had clothes. 411 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: Because it's so difficult for so many people to survive. 412 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 1: Now what he had, girl, He had sorrel, He had 413 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: gallons of sorrel. 414 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 2: He had cakes out there. 415 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:32,600 Speaker 1: He had sweet potatoes, just raw swepotatoes, raw sweet potatoes. Girl, 416 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: he has some stuff standing outside, and you know, we 417 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: grabbed some stuff and talked to him for a little bit, 418 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: but he was talking about downsizing. 419 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 2: Anyway. 420 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: I've eaten at that restaurant before, and I just want 421 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: to give credit to black chefs because whether they have 422 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: restaurants or they're cooking at home. I mean, there are 423 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: so many black people that have literally fed me my 424 00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,239 Speaker 1: entire life, and people who were chefs who didn't have 425 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: restaurants but were still like, had amazing recipes and amazing food. 426 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 1: You know, there's just been a part of my life 427 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,840 Speaker 1: for forever. And for the people who do have restaurants, 428 00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,719 Speaker 1: I know that it's a difficult business in general, and 429 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 1: I'm appreciative of the labor of love and the love 430 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: that they provide to everything through their hands and their craft. 431 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: So that's why I want to give credit to Well. 432 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 3: Hopefully he gets his downsize spot and can stay. 433 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:22,320 Speaker 2: Hopefully. 434 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 3: You don't know what he want to do. I want 435 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:30,280 Speaker 3: to give credit to Miss Mati prim Jon. She is 436 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 3: the owner of Marshall's and Music and bookstore in Jackson, Mississippi. 437 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: And I was in Jackson over the weekend and I 438 00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 3: just pulled up on her. I didn't tell her I 439 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:42,200 Speaker 3: was coming. I first met her while I was researching 440 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 3: my book, and it was like a cute little spot. 441 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 3: People was in there, like buying books and stuff. Like 442 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,959 Speaker 3: it's on this street that's like it used to be 443 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 3: like a bustling downtown in Jackson, but now it's like 444 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 3: pretty much abandoned, with like a couple of businesses still open, 445 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:58,680 Speaker 3: but they've been in the same spot since nineteen thirty eight. 446 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 3: And yeah, So I pulled up on her, and you know, 447 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 3: I told her who I was, and she was like, oh, 448 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 3: you know, and we were talking about the book and stuff, 449 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 3: and then you know, we was headed out because we 450 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,360 Speaker 3: about to go back to Atlanta, and she said, well, 451 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,840 Speaker 3: I'm going to Montgomery later on. And I was like, oh, okay, 452 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 3: there's like a book there or something. She was like, 453 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,359 Speaker 3: I don't know, but I'm celebrating the one year anniversary 454 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 3: of the Montgomery Brawl. No, Katie, No, I was like, oh, 455 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:30,280 Speaker 3: She's like, yeah, a group of us are going to 456 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,360 Speaker 3: commemorate the brawl. I was like, you play all day, 457 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 3: but y'all have fun. 458 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 2: They probably have matchave shirts. It was I hope they do. 459 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 3: I hope they have a shirt with like a silhouette 460 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 3: of that man with the holding chair. I sure do, 461 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 3: and I would purchase one. It's a historical moment. 462 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,440 Speaker 2: We're gonna that's our next episode. Actually, stay tuned everyone, 463 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:54,440 Speaker 2: and we. 464 00:24:54,280 --> 00:25:00,120 Speaker 3: Will see you next week. Bye. 465 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 1: On Theme is a production of iHeartRadio and Fairweather Friends Media. 466 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,919 Speaker 1: This episode was written by Eves Jeffco and Katie Mitchell. 467 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 1: It was edited and produced by Tari Harrison. Follow us 468 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 1: on Instagram at on Themeshow. You can also send us 469 00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:19,560 Speaker 1: an email at hello at on Theme dot show. Head 470 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: to on Themet Show to check out the show notes 471 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: for episodes. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 472 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 1: Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.