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Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports show, where we

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Speaker 1: explore the big money issues in the world of sports.

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Speaker 1: I'm Michael Barr, I'm Scarlett and I'm coming up today.

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Speaker 1: We want to follow up on the legal action going

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Speaker 1: on between the p g A and Live Golf, including

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Speaker 1: a very recent ruling that's signed it with the PGA.

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Speaker 1: But first we have to talk about Serena Williams, the

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Speaker 1: goat of tennis, who is thinking about retiring after one

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Speaker 1: of the greatest individual sports careers of all time. And Scarlett.

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Speaker 1: The thing of it is is that she's probably going

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Speaker 1: out on her own terms. Oh absolutely um, but she

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Speaker 1: did make some comments that are really interesting, basically suggesting

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Speaker 1: or saying that if she were man, perhaps retirement would

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Speaker 1: not be as much of an option, or needs to

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Speaker 1: be as much of an option. So I want to

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Speaker 1: dig into that. I agree, and there's a great article

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Speaker 1: up on the terminal and at Bloomberg dot Com to

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Speaker 1: dig deeper into Serena's comments. We welcome Bloomberg Senior editor

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Rupp. Lindsay, thank you so much for joining us

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Speaker 1: on the Bloomberg Businesses. Thanks for having me well, she

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Speaker 1: said the Serena Williams probably hit the nail on the head.

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Speaker 1: She said, if she was a man, she would probably

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Speaker 1: stick around longer in the sport. But I have to

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Speaker 1: agree with her and and her reasoning makes perfect sense. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: She basically says, you know, if I had a wife

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Speaker 1: at home who could bear another child so I could

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Speaker 1: expand my family, then you know, I might not be retiring.

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Speaker 1: She kind of compares herself to Tom Brady and says,

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Speaker 1: you know, maybe I'd be having more of a Tom

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Speaker 1: Brady moment. But you know the reality is she wants

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Speaker 1: to have another baby and she doesn't want to be

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Speaker 1: pregnant as a professional athlete. Another goat by the way, Um,

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Speaker 1: she did come back after having her first child. Is

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Speaker 1: this common for tennis players to have had kids and

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Speaker 1: come back and play. Do we know if there's like

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Speaker 1: a track record or precedent for that. That's an interesting question. Um,

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Speaker 1: we know that it's very difficult for professional athletes to

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Speaker 1: become mothers in general. That you know, until about twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 1: Nike didn't have a maternity leave policy. And really most

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Speaker 1: athletes are sponsored by major brands, and so if they're

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Speaker 1: not playing, they're not competing, they're not earning money, and

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Speaker 1: not everyone Serena, They're not bringing home that kind of

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Speaker 1: money and they can't necessarily afford to take time off

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Speaker 1: in that way. So, uh, for Serena, you know, she

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Speaker 1: actually won the Australian Open when she was two months

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Speaker 1: pregnant um. You know, she she talks about her very

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Speaker 1: difficult childbirth experience and about coming back and playing postpartum

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Speaker 1: and while she was you know, breastfeeding and experiencing postpartum depression.

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Speaker 1: But I think, you know, Serena's is incredibly unique in

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Speaker 1: that well, I mean, look, we're not just talking about

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Speaker 1: any money. We're talking about nearly a hundred million dollars

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Speaker 1: in prize money over twenty six year career, the highest

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Speaker 1: earning female athlete of all time. Absolutely, is she the

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Speaker 1: right torch bearer to really, you know, go out there

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Speaker 1: talking about the financial hardship based by new mothers, by

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Speaker 1: pregnant women, especially those who work for small business and

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Speaker 1: businesses and the sole proprietors. I mean, what can the

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Speaker 1: US government be doing to sort of help them? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that Serena Williams comes out and

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Speaker 1: talks about out how she wants to take time away

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Speaker 1: from her career basically to focus on expanding her family,

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Speaker 1: and the real pain that that caused her that she

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Speaker 1: really didn't want to do it necessarily. She says, you know,

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Speaker 1: I never wanted to retire. This is very painful. Most

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Speaker 1: women in America don't have or people who give birth,

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Speaker 1: they don't have access to paid time off. There is

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Speaker 1: no federal safety net for for people who give birth UM,

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Speaker 1: so they're really on their own in a way that

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Speaker 1: you know, Serena Williams has to step away from her career,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's really a choice she's making a lot

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Speaker 1: of a lot of people. You know, they spend twelve

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Speaker 1: weeks without pay UM, so it's you know, it's a

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Speaker 1: very different situation that Serena Williams is in obviously financially,

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Speaker 1: but the US government, you know, they don't subsidize childcare,

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Speaker 1: they don't UM. They don't offer any kind of paid

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Speaker 1: leave if you if you fall really ill, or if

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Speaker 1: you become a new parent UM and that kind of

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Speaker 1: safety nets really important for a lot of women who need,

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Speaker 1: who want to be in the workforce, or who want

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Speaker 1: to be pursuing their careers. I want to go back

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Speaker 1: to something you said you reminded all the listeners about it.

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Speaker 1: Serena Williams was two months pregnant when she won a tournament.

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Speaker 1: If I got a corner on my foot, I'm ready

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Speaker 1: to call in the work. And she won a tournament

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Speaker 1: two months pregnant. And and this is why every time

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Speaker 1: when I hear about the inequities of pay that women

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Speaker 1: get the shaft on compared to what's out there. This

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Speaker 1: is why you see my hands start the shape because

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Speaker 1: I can't stand it. Can you go more into that?

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Speaker 1: And what Serena has meant to leading the torch to like, hey,

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Speaker 1: equal pay, folks. Yeah, she's been very outspoken about equal pay.

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Speaker 1: You know, her daughter, um Olympia is actually the youngest

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Speaker 1: UH team owner ever. She owned a piece of women's

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Speaker 1: soccer team in l A, I believe. And and you

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Speaker 1: know her husband alexis honey and he says in some

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Speaker 1: of his tweets that that part of the reason he

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Speaker 1: really want to invest in this team is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: his wife had told him about the pay and equities

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Speaker 1: that the women's soccer team faced compared to the men's

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Speaker 1: soccer team. So she's really been out in front in

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Speaker 1: her personal life and in her public life about about

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Speaker 1: pay what What do we know about what Serena is

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Speaker 1: going to focus on Because obviously tennis takes up the

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Speaker 1: bulk of her time when she is preparing for tournaments.

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Speaker 1: But if she is stepping back from playing professionally, she's

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Speaker 1: got a lot of other things going on. Yeah, she's

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Speaker 1: been really leaning into her venture capital fund that she

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Speaker 1: started a few years ago. Um it's called Serena Ventures

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Speaker 1: and they back mostly women and minority owned businesses, so

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Speaker 1: they've actually got a pretty impressive track record of investments.

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Speaker 1: You know, Um, I understand Serena is going to be

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Speaker 1: playing in the US Open in nearly two weeks. I mean,

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Speaker 1: do we have an official timetable for her retirement. We

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Speaker 1: do not. She indicates in her article in Vogue that

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Speaker 1: she does plan to play in New York, but beyond that,

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Speaker 1: it's anyone's guests. I do know one thing, ticket sales

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Speaker 1: for the US Open. He went off the hook with

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Speaker 1: a moment. She says, Okay, this is gonna be my

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Speaker 1: last one, and all of a sudden says, wait, let

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Speaker 1: megin in on this. That's my next story. Yeah, see

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Speaker 1: how I'm blowing. I'm blowing your next story. I'm sorry

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Speaker 1: now you're teasing ahead of Michael. But at the end,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the ticket sales went off the hook. This

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Speaker 1: shows you the draw that Serena Williams has for the sport.

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Speaker 1: I have a tennis ball signed by Serena Williams. I'll

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Speaker 1: let you touch it, Michael. That is impressive. Damien, how

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Speaker 1: how did you get that? I got it as a gift?

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Speaker 1: That one a Um, oh god. I think during the

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Speaker 1: middle of COVID we had like all these different families

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Speaker 1: went around and they had I don't know, it was

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Speaker 1: like you had a list of questions you had to answer,

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Speaker 1: you had to take pictures with all these things, and

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Speaker 1: that was the gift. So I wouldn't hear my family

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Speaker 1: to compete for this. It was like, yeah, yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was a competition. It's always a competition in my house. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think it's important to reiterate and um, Damian, you

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Speaker 1: touched on this and you certainly gave us the numbers

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Speaker 1: to back at up landsa is that she's almost decorated

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Speaker 1: female athlete, profession athlete of all time, not just tennis player,

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Speaker 1: you know, but we can't limit her to that. Yeah. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: and she is the highest earning female athlete absolutely Sam

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Speaker 1: single titles fourteen major doubles titles in a twenty six

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Speaker 1: year career, the most of any player in the open era.

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Senior Editor Lindsay Rupp, I'm sure you're looking at

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Speaker 1: me like man we hired this. Thank you very much

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Speaker 1: for coming on and talking with us, probably about the

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Speaker 1: biggest sports story of the week that's going on right now.

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Speaker 1: Serena Williams retiring. Thank you so much, Lindsay for having

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Speaker 1: special Thanks to Bloomberg Senior Editor Lindsay Rupp. You can

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Speaker 1: read more online at Bloomberg dot com or on the terminal. Now,

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Speaker 1: let's talk some golf. In a narrow ruling that came

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Speaker 1: down just a couple of days before the start of

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Speaker 1: the FedEx Cup, a judge determined that the p g

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Speaker 1: A Tour is allowed to bar live golfers from participating.

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Speaker 1: That is just one of the latest developments. Let's bring

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Speaker 1: in Bloomberg Laws, Peter Bloomberg, that's not excusing because we

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Speaker 1: were Bloomberg. Peter, thank you so much for joining the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business of Sports. Happy to be here. Well, let's

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Speaker 1: let's start. First of all, that the p g A

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Speaker 1: got a bit of a victory in this. Can you

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Speaker 1: explain that the legal ramifications of that. Yeah, so this

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Speaker 1: was an emergency order from the court that bars these

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Speaker 1: three players from participating in the FedEx Cup. But it

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Speaker 1: doesn't go beyond that. It only it only deals with

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Speaker 1: that one issue in the immediate future, and the lawsuit

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Speaker 1: itself will continue and it's going to be a long

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Speaker 1: slog and it's hard at this point to say who's

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Speaker 1: going to win. So how does this ruling affect the

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Speaker 1: lawsuit or does it not have any bearing on it?

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Speaker 1: It really doesn't have any bearing on the on the

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Speaker 1: lawsuits final outcome. This was just the judge weighing in

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Speaker 1: on this narrow question of whether these three play players

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Speaker 1: could get the suspension by the pg A temporarily lifted

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Speaker 1: so that they could participate in this one tournament. So

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Speaker 1: talk to me here, I mean, what comes next? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I mean, can these three players I believe um, you know,

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Speaker 1: um that are trying to be in the fact, is

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Speaker 1: there any way that they can appeal this ruling in

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Speaker 1: order to play in time for the FedEx or is

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Speaker 1: that out? And then the second question, I guess on

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Speaker 1: the back of that is you know what comes next

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Speaker 1: with the main lawsuit the level leven You know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: what do you is your gut tell you about whether

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Speaker 1: or not this anti trust case holds in the U

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Speaker 1: S court system. This ruling uh will not be appealed.

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Speaker 1: That that um that is now behind us. But going forward,

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Speaker 1: each side may have strong arguments to make. For instance,

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Speaker 1: in in l I V favor, the lawsuits sites excerpts

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Speaker 1: of meetings between officials of l I V and the

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Speaker 1: European Tour in which they were just discussing a possible partnership,

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Speaker 1: but ultimately the European Tour decided to shore up its

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Speaker 1: alliance with the p G p g A and that

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Speaker 1: that could um present a hard situation for for the

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Speaker 1: PGA to defend itself against claims that anti competitive because

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Speaker 1: here you have p b A specifically working with the

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Speaker 1: European Tour to strengthen its own hold on the market.

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Speaker 1: But on the other hands, any monopolization claim and that's

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Speaker 1: ultimately what this case is about, right that that l

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Speaker 1: I V is claiming that p G A has a

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Speaker 1: stranglehold on the market for pro pro golfers and any

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Speaker 1: kind of monopolization case ultimately turns on the accuser being

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Speaker 1: needing to prove that they're suffering, that they're being harmed.

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Speaker 1: But it's going to be difficult for the l i

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Speaker 1: V to make the claim that its players are really

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Speaker 1: suffering when they're getting showered with millions and millions of

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Speaker 1: dollars from Saudi Arabia. Now let's, by the way, let's

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Speaker 1: explain the three golfers were talking about, Taylor Gooch, Hudson

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Speaker 1: Swofford and Matt Jones. They won't be able to participate

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Speaker 1: at least in the FedEx Cup playoffs. But here's the problem.

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Speaker 1: A live golfer is guaranteed at least a hundred twenty

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Speaker 1: dollars per tournament, and that's a higher amount than most

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Speaker 1: players averaging per event on the p g A Tour,

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Speaker 1: which brings the problem. Can there be a legal argument

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Speaker 1: that live golfers say, look, I make more money here.

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Speaker 1: You can't tell me it's like I have to make

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Speaker 1: less than what I'm making on live. Well, the p

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Speaker 1: g A will always have the the allure for golfers

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Speaker 1: of its prestige and its history, but in the end,

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Speaker 1: if it if it has to loose en up its

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Speaker 1: rules and allow these players to participate in other tours.

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Speaker 1: It's gonna be uh squeezed because l I V has

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Speaker 1: already shown that it can uh it can supply more

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Speaker 1: money for the golfers. So p g A has a

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Speaker 1: lot of stake if it loses right because the players

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Speaker 1: could simply go to other other leagues. Peter project out

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Speaker 1: for us what this looks like um down the road.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned that this does not affect the ongoing lawsuit

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Speaker 1: that the individual golfers have levied against p g A.

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Speaker 1: But what I mean is this just the tip of

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Speaker 1: the iceberg when it comes to legal battles between well

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Speaker 1: two organizations through these individual players. Well, remember it's not

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Speaker 1: just the two organizations they're fighting with each other. There's

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Speaker 1: also the Justice Department, which recently opened its own investigation

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Speaker 1: of p g A. Now, going back to the ninet nineties,

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Speaker 1: there was of course a Federal Trade Commission probe into

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Speaker 1: similar allegations that p g A was acting monopolistic and

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Speaker 1: anti competitive. Ultimately, though that investigation was closed without any

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Speaker 1: formal action by the agency. Now we're in a different

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Speaker 1: place because now we have a different agency, the Justice Department,

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Speaker 1: and we have the Justice Department under an administration Joe

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Speaker 1: Biden's administration, which has taken a very hard line on

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Speaker 1: monopolization issues so far, and so uh. It remains to

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Speaker 1: be seen, of course, whether the Justice Department will actually

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Speaker 1: bring a case, but the threat of that case is

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Speaker 1: a real one because this is an administration that is

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Speaker 1: committed not only to anti trust enforcement in a broad sense,

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Speaker 1: but also very specific to issues about wage suppression, which

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Speaker 1: is what this case really comes down to. You know, Peter,

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Speaker 1: my last crush of view is, you know, let's put

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Speaker 1: a timeline around this. You know, at what point, let's

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Speaker 1: say the courts ruling lives favor, you know, going down

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Speaker 1: the road out. I mean, what's the earliest we could

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Speaker 1: see Phil Nicholson back on the PGA tour. This is

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Speaker 1: actually gonna probably take years to play out. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be a very hard fought contest from both sides,

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Speaker 1: and as all big antitrust cases are, and there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a great deal of effort from both sides

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Speaker 1: to use the free trial information gathering phase what what's

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Speaker 1: what's known in the legal world as discovery, to try

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Speaker 1: to pry as much evidence from the other side as

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Speaker 1: they can in their favor, and there's going to be

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Speaker 1: a lot of depositions where you know, golf players and

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Speaker 1: officials from the two competing leagues are going to have

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Speaker 1: to be uh interrogated by lawyers. UH. So that's going

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Speaker 1: to take uh some time to play out. Ditto for

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Speaker 1: the government investigation, so it could be it could be

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Speaker 1: years into the future before we get a final resolution.

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Speaker 1: And all of this comes at a very interesting time

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Speaker 1: because you have not so long ago a Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: ruling that the n C double A cannot with withhold

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Speaker 1: financial benefits from college players, and that precedent could be

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Speaker 1: interpreted in this case in one way or another to

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Speaker 1: to to give an edge to either p g A

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Speaker 1: or l I V depending on how the judges interpreted.

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Speaker 1: And you also have um the potential for the outcome

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Speaker 1: of this fight to go beyond just professional golf, because

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Speaker 1: it's really an issue that applies in the antitrust world

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Speaker 1: to other sports that use independent contractors, tennis, race car driving.

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Speaker 1: You named Peter Bloomberg, Bloomberg News Legal news editor on

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Speaker 1: the p g A Live lawsuit. Thank you for dropping

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Speaker 1: your knowledge and educating me and the audience out there

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Speaker 1: about this whole lawsuit. Thank you again, sir, Thank you

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Speaker 1: for having me. This is the Bloomberg Business of Sports podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Michael Barr, along with Scarlet Fu and Damien Sassaur.

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Speaker 1: Catch us here each and every Monday, Wednesday and Thursday,

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Speaker 1: exploring the world of money in sports. You're listening to

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business of Sports on Bloomberg Radio around the world.