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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome.

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Speaker 2: I'm my favorite Murder. This weekend, we're heading to New

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Speaker 2: York City to perform live at the Kings Theater in Brooklyn.

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Speaker 2: It's our last live show of this freakin tour, that's right.

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Speaker 1: So because of that, we're going to bring you a

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Speaker 1: quilt episode today where we combine two of our favorite

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Speaker 1: New York stories. So the first up will be Georgia

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Speaker 1: telling the story of the New York Zodiac Killer.

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Speaker 2: And then Karen will tell you about the fearless investigative

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Speaker 2: reporter Nellie bly.

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Speaker 1: I love the story, So please enjoy our New York

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Speaker 1: Quilt episode.

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Speaker 2: And don't forget to check out new merch in the

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Speaker 2: Exactly Right Store. Everything from skeletons, Santa ornaments to new

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Speaker 2: zip up hoodies. We got some good merch.

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Speaker 1: Get ahead of your holiday shopping, or just buy something

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Speaker 1: for yourself at Exactly rightstore dot com.

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Speaker 2: Goodbye, I'm first right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so it's two in the morning on Thursday, May thirty, first,

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety. We're in Queens, New York. In the early nineties. Okay,

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Speaker 2: look at it. This is the year in New York

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Speaker 2: City's homicide rate peaked with two thousand, six hundred and

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Speaker 2: five killings nineteen ninety uh huh. And for context, in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, New York had three hundred and eighty

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Speaker 2: six homicides compared to twenty to twenty six hundred. Oh

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Speaker 2: my god. And it hasn't had more than five hundred

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Speaker 2: since twenty eleven. So that is a big.

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Speaker 1: Old number that's important to know.

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Speaker 2: Right The early seventies through the early nineties are what

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Speaker 2: people called the battle days. And while there's currently a

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Speaker 2: lot of fear mongering about crime in New York going

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Speaker 2: back to those levels, it's nowhere close right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, in the wee Hours of Queens in nineteen ninety,

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Speaker 2: when an elderly man is shot in the back, a

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Speaker 2: special police unit devoted to violent robberies against the elderly

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Speaker 2: is dispatched to the scene. The seventy nine year old

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Speaker 2: man named Joseph Prochey is alive when the first responders

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Speaker 2: arrive and he's rushed to the hospital. Joe is a

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Speaker 2: World War Two veteran and a retired ice truck driver,

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Speaker 2: and the assumption is that this was an attempted mugging.

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Speaker 2: That is until Detective Michael Cirovolo from the Senior Citizen's

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Speaker 2: Robbery Unit. They had to have a whole unit on

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Speaker 2: secret ships and robbery. He examines the crime scene a

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Speaker 2: little more closely. There are no fingerprints, but police do

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Speaker 2: recover a lead bullet, and the sides of the bullet

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Speaker 2: are smooth, without the grooves that a barrel of a

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Speaker 2: traditional gun would make, and this tells police that the

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Speaker 2: weapon was a homemade zip gun they're called, which is

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Speaker 2: something that wouldn't be particularly accurate and would have to

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Speaker 2: be fired at a very close range. A zip gun

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Speaker 2: can be made from materials as simple as a length

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Speaker 2: of pipe, a nail, and a rubber band. It's like

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Speaker 2: an elaborate sling shop, but you got to be close up.

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Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: On Joe's front steps, there's a piece of paper held

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Speaker 2: down by three rocks, and at the top of the

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Speaker 2: paper of the first paper, there is a circle with

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Speaker 2: three wedges drawn in the lower left corner, almost like

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Speaker 2: a pie chart, with three little areas in each area.

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Speaker 2: In each little slice there's a symbol. They're crudely drawn

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Speaker 2: astrological signs. Scorpio, Gemini, and Taurus stand.

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Speaker 1: For them, right, Gemini, that's me that's me.

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Speaker 2: Oh my, get ready. At the bottom of the piece

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Speaker 2: of paper is a familiar image, a circle with crosshairs

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Speaker 2: drawn through it. Oh, I know what that's frout yep.

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Speaker 2: In between the two pictures the two drawings is the sentence,

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Speaker 2: this is the Zodiac. The twelfth sign will die when

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Speaker 2: the belts in the heaven are seen.

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Speaker 1: Elp.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It doesn't make any sense. This is

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Speaker 2: the story of the New York Zodiac. What. Yeah, I've

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Speaker 2: never heard of this, I know.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 2: The main sources are an episode of the Netflix show

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Speaker 2: Catching Killers and reporting from the New York Times. The

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Speaker 2: rest of the sources can be found in the show notes.

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Speaker 2: Detective cy Ravello sends a copy of the note to

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Speaker 2: California to be compared with the notes from the known

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Speaker 2: Zodiac killer. The Zodia killer hadn't been active as far

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Speaker 2: as anyone knows, in about twenty years, so this is

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Speaker 2: a surprise to everyone. And from the hospital where he's

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Speaker 2: fighting for his life, Joe Proachy tells the police that

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Speaker 2: the man who had shot him had asked for a

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Speaker 2: glass of water and possibly money. Joe had tried to

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Speaker 2: brush him off and walk into his apartment when the

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Speaker 2: man shot him from behind, but he can't tell them

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Speaker 2: anything about what the guy looked like. The police basically

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Speaker 2: move on. It's the precinct is Queens and Brooklyn border. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: it's overwhelmed with new homicide cases that keep coming in,

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Speaker 2: so they don't linger on this case. Then, almost three

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Speaker 2: weeks after this shooting, another note materializes. This one had

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Speaker 2: been sent to the New York Post, and a similar

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Speaker 2: one is sent to sixty Minutes. The notes are a

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Speaker 2: lot like that first one and have the same picture

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Speaker 2: with the three zodiac signs, and this letter also includes

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Speaker 2: a list of victims. Like the first one, it contained

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Speaker 2: some spelling medical errors, and it kind of just explains

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Speaker 2: and gives dates and times of when the New York

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Speaker 2: Zodiac attacked other people. It turns out that all three

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Speaker 2: of the shootings in the note correspond with real shootings.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, he had already done them. So there was

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Speaker 2: two that happened in March. They had not been on

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Speaker 2: the police's radars being connected at all, But in each shooting,

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Speaker 2: the victim had actually survived, and each shooting had taken

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Speaker 2: place in pretty much the same area of Brooklyn, in

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Speaker 2: a neighborhood called East New York, with Joe's shooting being

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Speaker 2: just over the border in Queens, so all in the

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Speaker 2: same area and now they're all connected. Every time the

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Speaker 2: men who were shot had been vulnerable in some way.

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Speaker 2: The first shooting victim on March eighth was a fifty

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Speaker 2: year old man who used a cane named Mario o'rosco.

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Speaker 2: Mario had been walking at night and was shot in

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Speaker 2: the back as well. He had told police that the

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Speaker 2: shooter had worn a mask, and the shooter then held

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Speaker 2: a gun to his head after he fell, but he

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Speaker 2: didn't pull the trigger. The second victim, on March twenty ninth,

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Speaker 2: had been a thirty four year old man named Jermaine Montenestro.

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Speaker 2: Jermaine had been out with friends that night, he had

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Speaker 2: been drinking. He was walking back to his father's house

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Speaker 2: in the same area of Brooklyn, and couldn't really give

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Speaker 2: a description of the shooter. So it just seems like

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Speaker 2: the shooter had been prowling around for people who seem

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Speaker 2: vulnerable until the police make one additional discovery. Each victim's

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Speaker 2: birthday coincides with the astrological signs that were drawn on

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Speaker 2: the note. Oh whoa so yeah what yeah, isn't that creepy?

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Speaker 1: That is, so it's not random and it's not like

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Speaker 1: just somebody wandering around.

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Speaker 2: In case unless it's a huge coincidence. But he's saying it's,

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Speaker 2: you know, not okay. Mario's a Scorpio, Jermaine is a Gemini,

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Speaker 2: and Joe is a Taurus. And it seems to Felice

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Speaker 2: that this shooter's plan is to try and kill one

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Speaker 2: person from each of the twelve signs of the zodiac.

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Speaker 2: But they have no idea how the shooter would have

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Speaker 2: known his victims. None of them, recall a stranger, were

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Speaker 2: asking for their birthday, and all of them were conscious

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Speaker 2: when the shooter fled, so they would he didn't take

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Speaker 2: how they're will in and look at their birthday, I mean,

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Speaker 2: which would have been a crazy coincidence. Still, right after

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Speaker 2: the police make these realizations, authorities from San Francisco get

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Speaker 2: in contact and they analyze the letters and they are

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Speaker 2: not from the original zodiot killer obviously, ear I mean

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Speaker 2: thought would have been huge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we would have known about that for sure.

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Speaker 2: Exactly each of the three shootings is twenty one days apart.

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Speaker 2: The New York PD brings in an astronomer and an

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Speaker 2: astrologer to analyze the patterns between the shootings. They did. Huh.

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Speaker 2: The astronomer notes that each of the three shootings took

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Speaker 2: place on days and times when three specific constellations were

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Speaker 2: visible in the night sky Oriyan, seven Sisters, and Taurus

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Speaker 2: your favorites. The astronomer says that the next time the

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Speaker 2: stars will all be visible will be the very early

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Speaker 2: hours of June twenty first, which is only a few

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Speaker 2: days away from that point. So there's a fucking pattern

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Speaker 2: with astrology.

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Speaker 1: That can basically anticip what's going to happen next. That's

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Speaker 1: like straight out of a nineties movie.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's very what was the movie? Seven? No? What's

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Speaker 2: someone with? What's in the box?

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Speaker 1: That is? Seven?

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Speaker 2: Seven? Yeah? Got those vibes. The police have been begging

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Speaker 2: the press, particularly the New York Post, not to run

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Speaker 2: any big stories on the case and the theory of

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Speaker 2: the zodiac links between the shootings. They don't care. They

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Speaker 2: run a huge story and publish all the notes and

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Speaker 2: all the details. So people start to freak out. Obviously.

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Speaker 2: The police chief gets on TV and tells New Yorkers

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Speaker 2: to just be cautious if anyone approaches them and ask

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Speaker 2: them for their birthday, and then also on that specific

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Speaker 2: night when it's predicted he'll strike again. Yeah, So on

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Speaker 2: that evening on June twentieth into the morning of June

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Speaker 2: twenty first, police flood into East New York hoping to

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Speaker 2: catch the shooter. And the story here, it could be

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Speaker 2: its own story. It's a lot about the discriminatory stop

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Speaker 2: in frisk policing that becomes a huge part of New

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Speaker 2: York City for the next thirty years or so. That

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Speaker 2: happens a lot that night, and they kind of just

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Speaker 2: stop anyone who looks suspicious, you know, which, of course

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Speaker 2: ends up being a lot of people of color. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you know, right, So the sun rises on East New

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Speaker 2: York and a lot of men have been stopped and frisked,

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Speaker 2: but the shooter hasn't been found, and no one has

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Speaker 2: been shot in a way that matches the New York

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Speaker 2: Zodiac's m It's like people have been shot, that's for sure. Absolutely.

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Speaker 2: That is until later that morning when Detective c Ravello

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Speaker 2: gets a call from a detective in Manhattan who tells

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Speaker 2: him that somebody in Central Park had been shot. The

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Speaker 2: most recent victim is an unhoused man who had been

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Speaker 2: sleeping on a bench in Central Park named Larry param

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Speaker 2: he had been shot in the torso. And there is

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Speaker 2: another note at the crime scene, much like the others,

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Speaker 2: but this one has extra lines insisting that he is

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Speaker 2: in fact the San Francisco Zodiac. He's like, no, no, no,

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Speaker 2: I swear I am.

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Speaker 1: Oh he's communicating now directly with like the media, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the cops going like you're wrong, Yeah, you have

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Speaker 1: the theory wrong.

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Speaker 2: Right. So then there's another slice of that you know,

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Speaker 2: pie chart, and in it is a cancer symbol. And

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Speaker 2: it turns out Larry, the unhouse man who had been

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Speaker 2: shot on the twenty first, just like they predicted, just

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Speaker 2: in a different area because he probably knew they were

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Speaker 2: going to be there was a cancer how I don't

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Speaker 2: know he survives the shooting. I can't tell the police anything.

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Speaker 2: He had been asleep. He does, however, remember a stranger

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Speaker 2: asking him his birthday in the days or weeks leading

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Speaker 2: up to being shot. Ooh, yeah, which I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Would you notice that? Yeah, if someone asked you your birthday,

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Speaker 2: for sure, Hey win your birthday like a random person

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Speaker 2: on the.

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Speaker 1: Street, because truly, if you moved to a city, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is the thing it just being from a farm

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Speaker 1: down just anyone says anything to you, who needs to know?

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Speaker 1: It's the first thing back, what do you need my

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Speaker 1: birthday for?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? But there also the thing of like you're in

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Speaker 2: a big city, there's all kinds of you know, personalities

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Speaker 2: going on, and you're interacting with the city and some

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Speaker 2: guy on the street it's like, hey, when's your birthday?

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Speaker 2: I can tell you like about you know what I mean?

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Speaker 2: But then you.

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Speaker 1: Remember, like yes, almost like they've gotten smart enough so

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Speaker 1: that they're doing it in a way that's hidden in

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Speaker 1: something that's normalized.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but what would be normalized?

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Speaker 1: Does it people guessing your birthday or asking your birthday

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Speaker 1: besides like a nurse or something like.

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Speaker 2: Pick a card, any card, Okay, what's your birthday? Okay,

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Speaker 2: put it back in the deck and then they run away.

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Speaker 2: But you'd remember that, you would, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Well this guy did, yeah.

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Speaker 2: But it's still not a lot to go on. Even

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Speaker 2: though he does remember this person, he doesn't remember any

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Speaker 2: details about him. Right after Larry's shot, Joe Prochy, the

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Speaker 2: elderly man who had been shot in the back and

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Speaker 2: the beginning of our story, dies in the hospital succumbing

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Speaker 2: to his internal injuries. So in one of the recent shootings,

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Speaker 2: the letter that appeared has some additional drawings in it,

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Speaker 2: occult stuff, some sketches, sixty six six is written on them.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of hard to see what the shooter is

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Speaker 2: getting out with all these additional occult references. But one

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Speaker 2: of the letters does bring a break a partial fingerprint,

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Speaker 2: and there had been no prints on any of the

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Speaker 2: previous letters or scenes. So New Yorkers obviously are freaked out.

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Speaker 2: It's only thirteen years after David Berkowitz was arrested for

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Speaker 2: the Sun of Sam murders, so it kind of has

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Speaker 2: that mo as well, which freaks everyone out.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, just the wandering shooter, the night wandering night.

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Speaker 2: Shooter with maybe like who's maybe got some premonition about

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Speaker 2: birthdays too, Yeah, which makes it seem supernatural and even

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Speaker 2: more scary.

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Speaker 1: Right that there's some kind of theory behind it that

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Speaker 1: we couldn't understand.

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Speaker 2: But you know, yeah, a smart criminal, you know that's scary.

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Speaker 1: An astrological criminal, Yeah, such a virgo.

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Speaker 2: So at the end of the next twenty one day

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Speaker 2: cycle in July, people hold their breath. Police again ramp

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Speaker 2: up their presence across the city and because now they

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Speaker 2: know this that they could strike anywhere. But no shooting comes.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't come the next month either, and the shooter

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Speaker 2: just disappears. Police officers know he hasn't been arrested for

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Speaker 2: another crime because they have a print on file. Now

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Speaker 2: they would have found him. So both of the main

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Speaker 2: detectives on the case, Mike Ciravallo and Larry Milanesy, retire,

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Speaker 2: feeling like they let the shooter get away. They wonder,

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Speaker 2: you know, did he die? Where did he go? And

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Speaker 2: then in August of nineteen ninety four, so we're being

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Speaker 2: fast forwarded like four years or so, the New York

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Speaker 2: Post gets another letter and sends it to the police.

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Speaker 2: So the detectives originally on the case have retired. The

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Speaker 2: new lead detective in the East New York precinct is

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Speaker 2: named Joe Herbert. The new letter takes credit for five

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Speaker 2: additional attacks that had already happened, starting in August of

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two, so two years after their original spree.

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Speaker 2: None of the people in the letter I'm mentioned by name,

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Speaker 2: but just by physical details and time and place they

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Speaker 2: were killed, and a brief description of the crime. So

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Speaker 2: the detection have to go back and identify those exact

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Speaker 2: crimes and do they match them? Don't follow the twenty

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Speaker 2: one day schedule the previous ones had. They're kind of random. Now.

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Speaker 2: The letter does not include any mention of the victims signs,

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Speaker 2: although among them there will only be one repeat sign

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Speaker 2: uh huh oh, a second Taurus. In addition to Joe

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Speaker 2: pro sheet, Karen is pumped because she stores it.

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Speaker 1: Is a silent fist pump for some reason.

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Speaker 2: That's u yeah. So the first attack on the list

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Speaker 2: is from August of nineteen ninety two. It's the most

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Speaker 2: brutal one and it's immediately recognizable to police as one

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Speaker 2: of their unsolved murders. A thirty nine year old woman

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Speaker 2: named Patricia Fonte had been killed while walking late at

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Speaker 2: night in Highland Park, which is near that same part

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Speaker 2: of the Brooklyn Queen's Border where the first shootings happened.

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Speaker 2: Patricia had been stabbed more than a hundred times. Oh

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Speaker 2: my god, I know. And at the time her murder

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Speaker 2: was investigated, no one found a gunshot wound and no

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Speaker 2: one found a bullet. But in this letter they're saying

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Speaker 2: I shot and stabbed this woman.

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Speaker 1: I mean a hundred times.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I know, and Patricia had been a Leo. Her

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Speaker 2: neighbors remember her as a lovely person, and at this

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Speaker 2: point the NYPD is overwhelmed with summer around five homicides

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Speaker 2: every day, so Patricia's murder had tragically just been added

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Speaker 2: to a growing pile of open investigations. In addition to

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Speaker 2: Patricia's murderer, the letter takes credit for four other shootings,

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Speaker 2: all a year later in nineteen ninety three, an all

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Speaker 2: in or near the same area, Highland Park. In June

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Speaker 2: of ninety three, a forty year old man named Jim Weber,

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Speaker 2: a Libra, was shot in the leg while he was walking.

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Speaker 2: He survived. In July of that year, a forty seven

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Speaker 2: year old man named Joseph dia Cone was shot in

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Speaker 2: the neck at point blank range on a pedestrian walkway

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Speaker 2: and he died. He was a Virgo. So they're all

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Speaker 2: different except for the it's just like then. In October

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Speaker 2: of ninety three, a forty year old woman named Diane

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Speaker 2: Ballard was shot in the neck. She survived but was paralyzed,

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Speaker 2: and Diane is the only repeat that she was a

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Speaker 2: Taurus as well, so the letter reference is a fifth

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Speaker 2: victim also shot in Highland Park in June of ninety four.

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Speaker 2: All the other victims had been easily matched to the

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Speaker 2: police reports, but this one doesn't match anything the police

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Speaker 2: have on file. They search Highland Park extensively with like

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Speaker 2: dogs and helicopters, and they never find any trace of

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Speaker 2: this last unknown victim, which is so eerie. So at

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Speaker 2: the time, there's no computer database to match fingerprints, so

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Speaker 2: investigators go through manually comparing prints to the print from

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Speaker 2: the letter recover in Central Park. Can you imagine.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's just wild to think about that that

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Speaker 1: anyone got anything done at all.

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Speaker 2: Totally horrifying, totally, They don't find anything. The case is

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Speaker 2: tabled yet again, and Detective Joe Herbert, who is the

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Speaker 2: now the lead on the case, he moves on in

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Speaker 2: his career and he becomes a hostage negotiator. Oh wow,

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Speaker 2: and because of this one decision, this isn't a cold case. Wow,

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Speaker 2: it's wild. So a year later after that letter, in

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Speaker 2: the summer of ninety five, it's time for Joe Herbert

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Speaker 2: to do his very first hostage negotiation. He had been trained,

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Speaker 2: this was his first on the job, actual thing. What

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Speaker 2: a day, I know, he's Carrie, right. It's big yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: And it's the summer and it's like in New York

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Speaker 2: and everyone's.

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Speaker 1: You know, everyone's in a bad man.

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Speaker 2: It's humid. Yeah. A twenty year old man named Riberto

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Speaker 2: Sada has shot his seventeen year old sister, Gladys and

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Speaker 2: is holding her boyfriend hostage in an apartment in East

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Speaker 2: New York. Hundreds of police officers swarm the area, and

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Speaker 2: after basically several hours of back and forth exchanging some gunfire,

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Speaker 2: Joe urging Sata to come out of the apartment and

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Speaker 2: let his sister get medical attention. Roberto finally surrenders and

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Speaker 2: comes out, so Joe, of course, is thrilled his first

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Speaker 2: hostage negotiation was a success. No one has gotten additionally hurt.

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Speaker 2: The sister's taken to the hospital for surgery. She's expected

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Speaker 2: to survive. The bomb squad goes into the apartment, removes

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Speaker 2: two pipe bombs, and Sada writes out a confession saying

355
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Speaker 2: he shot his sister and held her boyfriend hostage. Story right,

356
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,320
Speaker 2: except when Joe takes a look at the confession, his

357
00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,680
Speaker 2: blood pressure drops. At the bottom, there's a little cross,

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Speaker 2: there's no circle around it. But it does look like crosshairs.

359
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Speaker 2: Then he reads the confession again and it's written in

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Speaker 2: handwriting that he's looked at a thousand times before. No way. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: He shows it to one of his colleagues who had

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Speaker 2: also worked on the New York Zodiac shootings since the beginning,

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Speaker 2: and that colleague says, quote, it looked like my wife's

364
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Speaker 2: shopping list. That's how familiar that lettering was. End quote. Wow,

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Speaker 2: they just looked at the paper and knew it was

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Speaker 2: his handwriting. Yeah, that's good detective work.

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Speaker 1: Well, also, it's a predator who is trying to brand

368
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Speaker 1: himself with that writing. So why would you ever like,

369
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Speaker 1: why wouldn't you as that then uncaught serial killer just

370
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Speaker 1: use some cursive Well, because.

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Speaker 2: He wouldn't think that this random people would connect him.

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Speaker 2: Why would they? It's such a different I mean, he's

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Speaker 2: a shooting, but it's like a different crime altogether.

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Speaker 1: Why not type I'm just saying curious. He could have

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Speaker 1: made an effort. He deserves everything he's getting.

376
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Speaker 2: Yes, maybe he wanted to get caught. Who knows, Maybe

377
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Speaker 2: he didn't, you know. Sata's fingerprint is quickly determined to

378
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:15,240
Speaker 2: be a match to the fingerprint from the Central Park letter,

379
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Speaker 2: but under questioning, he denies being the Zodiac Killer. And

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Speaker 2: it's only when detective show him pictures from Patricia Fonte's murder,

381
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Speaker 2: the woman who had been stabbed, that he finally confesses

382
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Speaker 2: to her murder, and then he confesses to all the

383
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Speaker 2: other shootings in order, and authorities find at least thirteen

384
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Speaker 2: homemade guns in his apartment. Oh my god.

385
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Speaker 1: Also the two pipe bombs that were just thrown in there,

386
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Speaker 1: Like did they know that was in there? I wonder

387
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Speaker 1: if he'd like threatened people about it?

388
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Speaker 2: Right, But good god. Yeah. Over the course of the investigation,

389
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 2: several other frustrating details emerged. For one thing, Sata had

390
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Speaker 2: sent his very first haunting letter to the police in

391
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Speaker 2: way back in nineteen eighty nine, before he had shot anybody,

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Speaker 2: and the police had dismissed it as a hoax, which

393
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Speaker 2: I mean, being so bogged down, I bet they get

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Speaker 2: you like that all the time. You got to look

395
00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:03,439
Speaker 2: into it. But what would they have found? Nothing?

396
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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot of that kind of stuff

397
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:07,280
Speaker 1: where it's just like and then they threw it into

398
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Speaker 1: the pile, and it's just like I wish they had n't. Yeah,

399
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,280
Speaker 1: I wish it mattered. Yeah.

400
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:14,520
Speaker 2: Secondly, he was known to police officers in his neighborhood

401
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 2: not as a criminal, but as a sort of vigilante.

402
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,960
Speaker 2: He tipped them off about local drug dealers, and he

403
00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:23,240
Speaker 2: was known to recite Bible verses to them sometimes. But

404
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 2: that's the thing where these killers sometimes want to involve

405
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 2: themselves in the police department's actions, or you know, want

406
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: to be part of it. He had been expelled from

407
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,359
Speaker 2: school and had tried to join the Green Berets, but

408
00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,239
Speaker 2: failed the entrance exam and moved back home with his

409
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,399
Speaker 2: mom in New York as an angry loaner. He says

410
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,640
Speaker 2: he saw a documentary on PBS about the Zodiac Killer,

411
00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 2: and he said, quote, holy smokes, this guy terrorized a

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Speaker 2: whole city and never got caught. I got nothing to

413
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Speaker 2: live for. I don't got no job. I already got

414
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Speaker 2: those skills. I could be famous. I could do that.

415
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Speaker 2: End quote. Oh and the weird thing about him asking

416
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Speaker 2: for people's birthdays that I didn't want to say is

417
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 2: that he's conventionally attractive. He's a young man, he looks

418
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,000
Speaker 2: clean cut. If he had come up to someone on

419
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,080
Speaker 2: the street, I don't they wouldn't have equated him with

420
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:10,360
Speaker 2: a murderer, you.

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00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 1: Know, yeah, especially if he was being charming.

422
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:12,920
Speaker 2: Yeah.

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00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, good looking people get away with a lot.

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Speaker 2: They fucking do.

425
00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 1: It's very true. Yeah, I mean I told you that story.

426
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 1: But at the time, I was like, how much we

427
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,159
Speaker 1: talk about like lock your fucking door and everything on

428
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:25,199
Speaker 1: this podcast. I was walking the dogs one day and

429
00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 1: this guy walked up and he was like he I

430
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,240
Speaker 1: think he said one thing about the dogs that was complimentary,

431
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:32,679
Speaker 1: and then I was like, I live up there, and

432
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Speaker 1: I gave the whole game away and then walked away,

433
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 1: going what is wrong to you?

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00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 2: It's so easy.

435
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,280
Speaker 1: It's very like there's a lot of human psychology involved

436
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,440
Speaker 1: in that. I mean, still, yeah. He could have also

437
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 1: said what sign are you? Which was like part of

438
00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:49,440
Speaker 1: the day in the seventies.

439
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:51,439
Speaker 2: It didn't have to be birthday, it didn't have to

440
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 2: be exact, Yeah, what's your sign? Yeah? And then in

441
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: March of ninety four, Saeda had been arrested for possession

442
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,879
Speaker 2: of a homemade gun and was fingerprinted, like two of

443
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:05,879
Speaker 2: the things that could have connected him, yeh, but the

444
00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,280
Speaker 2: charges were dismissed before the fingerprints had been filed. Why

445
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 2: I don't fucking know, and that had been after all

446
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 2: of the attacks except the last one, which is the

447
00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: unknown male victim in Highland Park that they never found.

448
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 2: So Sata's trial is an Intel nineteen ninety eight, and

449
00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,480
Speaker 2: over the course of the six week trial he acts erratically,

450
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,159
Speaker 2: yelling at the judge multiple times. The prosecution connects him

451
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:31,240
Speaker 2: to the crimes with DNA evidence from one of the

452
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 2: stamps on one of the letters he sent. They also

453
00:22:34,320 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 2: present evidence from the tools down in his home, linking

454
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 2: them to the guns and bullets use in the shootings.

455
00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 2: Sata is convicted of three murders and six attempted murders

456
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 2: and is currently serving multiple life sentences in the Clinton

457
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 2: Correctional Facility in Dana Mora in upstate New York. He

458
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 2: has since said that he really doesn't know anything about astrology, just.

459
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 1: A construct for the the character of this killer.

460
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. No one has ever figured out if he

461
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 2: asked all of the victims their birthdays at some point,

462
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,080
Speaker 2: or if almost all of them having different signs with

463
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,280
Speaker 2: just a coincidence. I doubt it, right, especially when he's

464
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 2: calling himself the Zodiac killer, right right right, That doesn't

465
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 2: make any sense anyways, that's the story of the New

466
00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 2: York Zodiac, who tragically killed three people, possibly one more,

467
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 2: and wounded six others. Wow, New York Zodiac.

468
00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,600
Speaker 1: New York. Well, I gotta say, first of all, that

469
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: was really good. And I do love when there's a

470
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,360
Speaker 1: serial killer that's just like brand new. Yeah, especially one

471
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,719
Speaker 1: that's like a copycat like that. But it is actually

472
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 1: kind of great that I've never heard of him, because

473
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 1: that's what he did it for exactly, that's what he wanted.

474
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:41,320
Speaker 1: That's why we know. Yeah, we know.

475
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 2: Now, don't chanel light on these fuckers, right.

476
00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: All right, great job, thank you. I'm very excited. I've

477
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: been waiting to tell this one for a while. Today

478
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you about a pioneering investigative reporter

479
00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 1: with no formal training who overcame incredible odds to report

480
00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: and break one of the most important stories on the

481
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 1: infiltration of a notorious what they called back then insane

482
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: asylum in the eighteen eighties of New York City. This

483
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 1: is the story of Nelly Bly.

484
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 2: This is amazing. I'm so excited. I thought you were

485
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: going to say Haralda Rivera.

486
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,080
Speaker 1: No, oh my god, that one though, You mean the

487
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,359
Speaker 1: one yeah, the one, oh yeah, one of the most

488
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:27,959
Speaker 1: So basically this is the turn of the century version

489
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: of that same exact story. Yeah, and which is if

490
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,680
Speaker 1: you haven't seen that, Heraldo did basically the same thing

491
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: about Willowbrook. The patients were being treated so terribly. The

492
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 1: video is a nightmare, like please be careful. I think

493
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: there are horror movie directors that watch that original video

494
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: and then based some of their ideas off of that.

495
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 2: I mean a legend of cropsy came from that.

496
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:54,600
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, well that's where it took place.

497
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 2: But Nellie blythe that is incredible, great idea. I can't

498
00:24:59,480 --> 00:24:59,920
Speaker 2: wait to hear that.

499
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: So the main sources used for this story today that

500
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: Marin used are the book Ten Days in a Madhouse,

501
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,119
Speaker 1: which is a collection of articles that Nelly Bly wrote

502
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,159
Speaker 1: and that first ran in the New York World newspaper

503
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:15,680
Speaker 1: in eighteen eighty seven. Also a nineteen ninety seven episode

504
00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:19,040
Speaker 1: of PBS's American Experience called Around the World in seventy

505
00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:23,199
Speaker 1: two Days. The book Damnation Island, Poor, Sick, Mad and

506
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: Criminal in nineteenth century New York by writer Stacy Horn,

507
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,960
Speaker 1: and the rest of the sources are in our show notes.

508
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 2: We're writing the Jack the Ripper territory right now.

509
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: Yes, we are. That is where this whole thing takes place,

510
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: which I always notice when stories are Turn of the

511
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: century or Victorian or whatever. If anything is near eighteen

512
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: eighty eight, I'm like, check the Ripper is about to happen,

513
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: or Jack the Ripper started.

514
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: Now, I know I didn't fucking know that shit. I mean,

515
00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: now you're in it with me. Maybe you were right.

516
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: Maybe these seven and a half years when you've been

517
00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 2: telling me to fucking read they all love Jack and

518
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:01,440
Speaker 2: talking about Jack the Ripper. Maybe, Or.

519
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: But wait, didn't I do the exact same thing to

520
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: you where you recommended something twice and then I was like, okay,

521
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: you have to read this book. And it was like

522
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:11,400
Speaker 1: five years after.

523
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: And I want to double down for you because I

524
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: just finished the book I told you about last week,

525
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,480
Speaker 2: Bright Young Women, by Jessica Knowle. It's basically historical fiction

526
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: about some of Ted Bundy's victims. I finished it. I cried,

527
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 2: it is incredible. I'm doubling down on it. You need

528
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: to listen to it, Okay, I will, but sorry, yes,

529
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: I'm going to stop interrupting you.

530
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: I might you no, no, if you stop interrupting me,

531
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: I'll be all alone.

532
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: This podcast won't exist. Yeah for real.

533
00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:40,360
Speaker 1: So in May of eighteen sixty four, Elizabeth Jane Cochrane

534
00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: is born in the suburb of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania called Cochrane's Mill,

535
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 1: which was founded by her dad and named for his business,

536
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 1: the Town Mill. He also served as a county judge.

537
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 1: So growing up, Elizabeth lives a charmed life in the

538
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,959
Speaker 1: upper class with all the luxuries that come with wealth

539
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: and prominence, and from a young age it's clear that

540
00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: she's a true individual with a big personality. She loves

541
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,840
Speaker 1: wearing fancy outfits and bright colors, which at the time

542
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,760
Speaker 1: most children wore brown and black, and her favorite color

543
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,719
Speaker 1: was pink, so her friends and family nicknamed her Pinky.

544
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: That's how weird it was for children to wear color,

545
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: because they were so depressed from their factory jobs that

546
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: they were just like, forget it.

547
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 2: It's funny that nowadays I'm always like, I can't find

548
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 2: black shirts to get my nephews ever, but back then

549
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 2: it was like, no, that's required. Yeah. Yeah.

550
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,120
Speaker 1: When Elizabeth is just six years old, her father dies

551
00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: unexpectedly and worse than that, without an updated will, So

552
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 1: the majority of his large estate goes to his ex

553
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 1: wife and his many children from his previous marriage. So

554
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: suddenly Elizabeth's mother, Mary Jane, is a widow who's struggling

555
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:56,160
Speaker 1: to keep food on the table, and soon the family

556
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 1: loses everything, including the large house that they lived in.

557
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: So eventually Mary Jane remarries, but her new husband is

558
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: a violent and abusive alcoholic. How many stories start like this? Truly,

559
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: then and now. She eventually takes steps to end this marriage,

560
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 1: which in the mid to late eighteen hundreds is a

561
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: highly stigmatized and extremely difficult process for women to undertake.

562
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,719
Speaker 1: When Elizabeth is fourteen years old, she has to testify

563
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 1: at her mom's divorce trial. So all of that leaves

564
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,439
Speaker 1: a huge impression on Elizabeth. Obviously, she becomes determined to

565
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: be self reliant so that she never has to depend

566
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: on anyone else, especially a man. Ever, again, of course,

567
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: it's the Victorian era and there are strict social rules

568
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: involving the sexes, so women are forced to live private

569
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 1: lives in their home. They're not supposed to have ambition

570
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:54,360
Speaker 1: for anything beyond getting married and raising children. Elizabeth can't

571
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: worry about that, though, because her struggling family needs her

572
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 1: financial help, and she wants to work, and she wants

573
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 1: to pitch in. But the problem is she can't find

574
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,040
Speaker 1: a job that pays well. Unlike her brothers who land

575
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 1: decent paying jobs despite having no formal education, Elizabeth is

576
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 1: mostly offered low paying factory jobs, and at fifteen years old,

577
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: she decides that she'll go to school to become a teacher.

578
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:22,000
Speaker 1: But after one semester, she runs out of money and

579
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 1: she has to drop out of school, so she has

580
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: to go back to Pittsburgh and help her mother run

581
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: a boarding house. By eighteen eighty four, Elizabeth is twenty

582
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: years old. She is unhappy and unfulfilled, which, by the way,

583
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 1: we've said this a million times on this podcast, But

584
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be unhappy and unfulfilled when you're twenty

585
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: and when you're twenty five, and when you're thirty, and

586
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: it continues on until you go through a bunch of

587
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: different versions of your life until it starts working. Anybody

588
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: that's acting like they stuck the landing on the first

589
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: try is fucking lying. Don't fall for.

590
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what life is is constantly striving. When you

591
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 2: stop having that striving feeling, like what do you do?

592
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 1: What do you do? It's not bad luck. You're supposed

593
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: to always want more and better for yourself, right because

594
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 1: you deserve it. Yep. And in between, you can have

595
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: a twix. Okay, one day, I don't know. One day

596
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:27,600
Speaker 1: it's because here's a hilarious I have Halloween candy in

597
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: this cookie jar that's on my counter. I bought it

598
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 1: like when my family came to visit a month a day,

599
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 1: so I keep thinking Halloween's over because the candy's almost gone.

600
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,680
Speaker 1: And usually I buy it closer to Halloween and they

601
00:30:39,760 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 1: eat it for a month after. So I had a

602
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: little tiny Twigs earlier. I was so excited there was

603
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: still one in there.

604
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: And that's your joy of the week. That really a Monday?

605
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: Is it?

606
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: Tiny Twigs?

607
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 1: That's how I get through the day. I guess your

608
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,840
Speaker 1: fifties are also quite difficult, but look, who gives a shit.

609
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:02,360
Speaker 1: One day, Elizabeth picks up a copy of the Pittsburgh

610
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 1: Dispatch newspaper, her local newspaper which she read every day,

611
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: and she sees a column entitled quote what Girls Are

612
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: Good For, and in it, the columnist argues that women

613
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: should be kept out of the workforce confined to the

614
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: house where they should practice the domestic arts and raise children.

615
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 2: God fuck yourself.

616
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,880
Speaker 1: Right. By the time she's done reading, Elizabeth's blood is boiling.

617
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: It's not just that the writer is a chauvinist and

618
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,240
Speaker 1: basically just saying like, why would you even need to

619
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 1: be stating this, but he's completely overlooked the women who

620
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 1: have no choice, the ones in her exact situation, who

621
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:40,880
Speaker 1: have to work outside the home to make ends meet.

622
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,959
Speaker 1: So Elizabeth pulls out a pen and paper and writes

623
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 1: a scathing rebuttal, and she signs it Little Orphan Girl

624
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 1: and mails.

625
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 2: It to the dispatch office.

626
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 1: Her grammar and spelling aren't perfect, of course, she has

627
00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: no formal education, but her voice is clear, it's passionate,

628
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: and it is captivating. The dispatcher's editor, George Madden, reads

629
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 1: the rebuttal letter and is so blown away that he

630
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 1: commits himself to finding this little orphan girl.

631
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: You know what she did. I think what they used

632
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: to call clapped back.

633
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: That's right, the old clapback.

634
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 2: The old clapback.

635
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: So George Madden places an ad in the next day's

636
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 1: newspaper asking the Little Orphan Girl writer to come forward

637
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 1: Elizabeth sees the ad it's easy to assume. She hauled

638
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:31,120
Speaker 1: her ass down to the Dispatch's office to say, yes,

639
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: it's me. Hey. George Madden asks her if she'd be

640
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: interested in writing a piece on quote the women's sphere

641
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 1: for the newspaper, and she happily accepts. It's all very faithful.

642
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: It's so cool, very cool.

643
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: And what did she do there?

644
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: She took pen to paper and she said what she

645
00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 1: actually felt and meant and was authentic and passionate, and

646
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: then she got rewarded for it.

647
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 2: She was an original blogger. I feel good for her.

648
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: Good for her and for all bloggers. Elizabeth's first article

649
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 1: pulls no punches. Her headline reads quote the girl Puzzle,

650
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 1: and it addresses the discrimination and sense of hopelessness that

651
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 1: poor women regularly experience. She calls out the wealthy residence

652
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 1: of Pittsburgh, fucking listen to this show, saying quote women

653
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: in poverty, read of what your last pug dog cost,

654
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 1: and think of what that vast sum would have done

655
00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 1: for them. Paid father's doctor bill, bought mother a new dress,

656
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 1: shoes for the little ones, and imagine how nice it

657
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: would be. Could baby have the beef tea that is

658
00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: made for your favorite pub or the care and kindness

659
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: that is bestowed upon it.

660
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: Oh my god. And she's fucking telling it like it is.

661
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: She is, and she also has this huge advantage of

662
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: having grown up among rich people, so she knows what

663
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: she's talking about.

664
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: And she's also like, adopt, don't shop, Like, there's so

665
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: many things in this story. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, sorry,

666
00:33:58,240 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: I does it?

667
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: If she could own in a spade new to your pets,

668
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: what an article that could have been. Okay, So in

669
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,840
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century, most female journalists are writing under pen names.

670
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: Elizabeth is no exception. She publishes The Girl Puzzle as

671
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 1: the Little Orphan Girl, and her column makes a big splash.

672
00:34:18,520 --> 00:34:21,520
Speaker 1: George Madden decides to keep giving Elizabeth assignments at the

673
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: rate of five dollars a week, which is worth around

674
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: one hundred and sixty dollars a week.

675
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 2: Now that's a lot, though, I feel like we're back then,

676
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,320
Speaker 2: right for a woman to earn.

677
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, because that's when like a cup of coffee was

678
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 1: three cents and shit.

679
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 2: Yeah.

680
00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: And also it was definitely more than she would make

681
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 1: as a factory worker, a little more than she would

682
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: make as a factory worker, but she's also doing what

683
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 1: she's supposed to be doing totally, So she starts churning

684
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,799
Speaker 1: out more and more articles that become increasingly popular, so

685
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 1: people like her writing. Before long, a group of men

686
00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,839
Speaker 1: at the newspaper decide she needs to catch your pen name,

687
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: and they pick Nelly Bly, which is a reference to

688
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: a popular song of the time, and it sticks. By

689
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:04,760
Speaker 1: the way, I just have to say, George is barking

690
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: because there's coyotes outside and he can't be calmed down,

691
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 1: so there's background noise for this. As she gets more famous,

692
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: Elizabeth starts going by Nellie Bly, and so that's what

693
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: will refer to her as for the rest of this story.

694
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 1: So of course, she takes her new job very seriously,

695
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: even though she's limited to covering items for the women's page,

696
00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:28,120
Speaker 1: which is a dedicated section of the newspaper that covers

697
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 1: things like fashion and the arts and homemaking. But Nellie

698
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: makes no secret of the fact that she is not

699
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 1: satisfied with this kind of reporting. She wants to do

700
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 1: the same hard hitting pieces that her male co workers

701
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,799
Speaker 1: are covering, so she starts pitching stories that deal with

702
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: the politics of being a nineteenth century woman pieces about

703
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: divorce laws that harm women and sexism in the workforce,

704
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:53,520
Speaker 1: two things that she has had firsthand experience with. Wow,

705
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: and it doesn't take long before Nellie Bly is a hit.

706
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 1: She develops a real following, and she manages to parlay

707
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: her name recognition into a gig as the Dispatch's foreign

708
00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: correspondent to Mexico.

709
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: Wow. Yeah.

710
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:09,399
Speaker 1: She spends several months in Mexico, and then she even

711
00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 1: draws the ire of the Mexican government after reporting on

712
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:17,399
Speaker 1: official corruption. But when she comes back to Pittsburgh, her

713
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,320
Speaker 1: editors are, for the most part, still assigning her fluff

714
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:25,040
Speaker 1: pieces for the Woman's Page. By eighteen eighty seven, Nelly's

715
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: a self made twenty three year old and she is

716
00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: getting very sick of her constant battle to be taken

717
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: seriously at the Dispatch. So she does what ballers do.

718
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: She sets her sights on a much bigger playing field,

719
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: New York City, and she does it so geniusly. She

720
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,360
Speaker 1: pitches a story to her editor that she wants to

721
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 1: do on how tough it is to get a job

722
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: as a female reporter in New York City, and he says, yeah,

723
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,279
Speaker 1: go do that story. So Basically, she's going to get

724
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 1: paid to go interview and figure out how she can

725
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: get a job in New York. So Nellie sets up

726
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: interviews with editors all over New York City and she

727
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:06,120
Speaker 1: asks them all what chance does a woman have in journalism?

728
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: And these editors, who are of course all men, tell

729
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 1: Nelly that women have no chance at all.

730
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 2: Nelly is not.

731
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:16,040
Speaker 1: Discouraged by this. She writes her piece for the Dispatch

732
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: and then she cuts ties with them soon after. So

733
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,759
Speaker 1: she does the story, she puts it in, and she's like, bye, Spicy.

734
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: She moves her entire life to New York City before

735
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: she's even gotten a job. And then one afternoon she

736
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:33,480
Speaker 1: goes to the downtown office of legendary publisher Joseph Pulitzer's newspaper,

737
00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 1: The New York World, and somehow talks her way into

738
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: a meeting with its managing editor, a man named John Cockrel.

739
00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: So Nellie asks him for work, and surprisingly he offers

740
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:48,280
Speaker 1: her an assignment. But, as writer Maureen Corrigan puts it, quote,

741
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 1: it was something of a dare. If you really want

742
00:37:51,080 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: to be a reporter, let's see what you've got. So

743
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 1: John Cockrell wants Nelly to write an expose on the

744
00:37:57,400 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 1: infamous New York City asylum.

745
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 2: On black Book Island. Holy shit.

746
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: So today New Yorkers know Blackwell's Island as Roosevelt Island,

747
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: which is a skinny, two mile long island that sits

748
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,319
Speaker 1: in the East River between Manhattan and Queens. It has

749
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:16,520
Speaker 1: apartment buildings, parks, and iconic tramway and scenic views of

750
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 1: the city. But in the late eighteen eighties, Blackwell's Island

751
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: is not a place where people go willingly. Instead, it

752
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 1: hosts some notorious facilities operated by the city. There's a prison,

753
00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: a house for the poor, and a so called workhouse

754
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,120
Speaker 1: where people convicted of minor crimes are sense as punishment.

755
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 1: There's also a public mental hospital with separate women's and

756
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 1: men's facilities. At the time, this was named the New

757
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: York City Lunatic Asylum. In this story, we'll just call

758
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: it the asylum or Blackwells Island, because you know, it

759
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: was a different time, and as it turns out, the

760
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 1: people in this asylum did not always have mental illness issues,

761
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: which is the scariest part of the story.

762
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: Absolutely.

763
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 1: The asylum on Blackwell's Island opened in eighteen thirty nine,

764
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 1: about fifty years before Nelly's arrival in New York, and

765
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: it was meant to provide compassionate care for people who

766
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: couldn't care for themselves, regardless of whether they had the

767
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:20,319
Speaker 1: money to pay for it. It was supposed to be

768
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: guided by Victorian ideals around moral character, charity, and public health.

769
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: But unfortunately, this city blows through its budget and the

770
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: facility winds up actually being built way smaller than it

771
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:35,960
Speaker 1: was originally planned to be, but that is not taken

772
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: into account. When they open the doors and start admitting people,

773
00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:44,680
Speaker 1: it becomes immediately overcrowded. It gets worse and worse as

774
00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: the years pass, and orders from families, physicians, police judges,

775
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:53,720
Speaker 1: as well as voluntary admissions, send more and more people

776
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: to the island. Soon hundreds of patients at this asylum

777
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 1: are regularly sleeping on the floor because there aren't enough beds,

778
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,480
Speaker 1: and at this period in time, mental health is not

779
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 1: well understood, so people are actually sent there for a

780
00:40:07,960 --> 00:40:12,480
Speaker 1: huge range of psychiatric symptoms, some without any discernible mental

781
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 1: illness whatsoever. And this includes new US immigrants ordered to

782
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:21,439
Speaker 1: Blackwell's Island by city officials who just don't know where

783
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 1: else to house them.

784
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: Nivey.

785
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, as if having an overpacked, underbuilt healthcare facility isn't

786
00:40:27,239 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 1: bad enough. For decades, the asylum on Blackwell's Island is

787
00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: underfunded and as a result, it struggles to retain talented,

788
00:40:34,440 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 1: compassionate doctors and nurses, let alone basic necessities like healthy

789
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 1: food or good blankets, and naturally, the situation inside the

790
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: asylum spirals into chaos. Now, none of this is new information.

791
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:51,239
Speaker 1: The asylum at Blackwell's Island has long been on the

792
00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: radar of writers and journalists, and actually, in the eighteen forties,

793
00:40:55,480 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: Charles Dickens visited there while he was on a tour

794
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 1: of the United States and reportedly he quote left in

795
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:07,680
Speaker 1: a hurry because of the facility's hopeless atmosphere. So the

796
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: asylum also hosted many journalists from respected outlets like The

797
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 1: New York Times and Harper's who were given open access

798
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:18,719
Speaker 1: to patients, but instead of using the story to advocate

799
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: for change, journalists would just pen salacious stories that mocked

800
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: the people in the throes of severe mental illness and distress.

801
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 1: So it was not a great time, not caring sensitive time,

802
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 1: just kind of you know, it was what it was.

803
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 1: But Nellie's not interested in entertaining the asylum as an

804
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: outside observer like Charles Dickens did. She wants to capture

805
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,799
Speaker 1: an authentic depiction of what life is like inside, and

806
00:41:45,840 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: the only way to get that story will be for

807
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: Nelly to arrive on Blackwell's Island as a patient, not

808
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: a journalist.

809
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: I mean that idea alone, it seems like such a

810
00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: what's the word I'm looking for? Total nightmare revolutionary? Oh yeah,

811
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: like what a great idea. It's terrifying. But that's like

812
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: a real journalist, a real investigative journalist, Like that's what

813
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,240
Speaker 2: your brain has to be like, is someone who wants

814
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 2: to get in there and see what's actually happening, not

815
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 2: just like write a fluff piece about it. It's so

816
00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 2: fucking awesome.

817
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: It's so inspiring.

818
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:21,439
Speaker 2: Yeah.

819
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:24,160
Speaker 1: And also, I don't think and I mean this is

820
00:42:24,239 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 1: just my opinion, but I don't think she would have

821
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 1: been at that point where she would have been up

822
00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: for this. I mean, we know she was pinky and

823
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: she was kind of the og right from birth, but

824
00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 1: at the same time, years and years of being told

825
00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: to write about house coats and ironing and trying to

826
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:44,799
Speaker 1: compete and not being allowed to compete gets her to

827
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: the point where she's like, Hell, yes, I'm gonna do this.

828
00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: Just back to that thing we were talking about before,

829
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:53,680
Speaker 1: where it's like kind of being like turned down, being

830
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: held down. Whatever. It's not always a bad thing if

831
00:42:56,840 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: it leads to something big and brave and great. Yea,

832
00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:04,439
Speaker 1: So Nellie assumes a new identity. She checks herself into

833
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,160
Speaker 1: a woman's boarding house under the name Nellie Brown. Knowing

834
00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 1: that immigrants are often the targets of discrimination and suspicion,

835
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,719
Speaker 1: she tells the landlady she's recently moved here from Cuba.

836
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 1: Throughout the evening, Nellie starts acting confused and paranoid around

837
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,839
Speaker 1: the other lodgers. She isn't doing anything aggressive, but her

838
00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: behavior alone frightens everybody, and soon the landlady calls the police.

839
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:32,120
Speaker 1: So she's taken down to a downtown courthouse, where the

840
00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 1: judge takes one look at the white, pretty young woman

841
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: in his courtroom, takes pity on her, and says, quote,

842
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,240
Speaker 1: I would stake everything on her being a good girl.

843
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: I am positive she is somebody's darling, poor girl. I

844
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: will be good to her, for she looks like my

845
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: sister who is dead. Oh end quote. So then reporters

846
00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:56,719
Speaker 1: are called to the courthouse to write stories on this

847
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 1: mysterious woman from Cuba who's basically being thrown to the

848
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,160
Speaker 1: mercy of the court, and the Times Prince a headline

849
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: that says, quote the mysterious waif with the wild haunted

850
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 1: look in her eyes.

851
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

852
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,920
Speaker 1: And meanwhile The Sun runs a story that the headline

853
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: is quote who is this insane girl? So now, of

854
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,319
Speaker 1: course Nellie's freaking out that someone like will recognize her

855
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,360
Speaker 1: and blow her cover, or that another journalist is going

856
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: to sniff out her real identity and basically bust her.

857
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:32,439
Speaker 1: So fortunately for Nellie's plan, that doesn't happen. And when

858
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: no one comes forward to claim her, she's taken to

859
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 1: Bellevue Hospital and they're a team of doctors determined that

860
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,960
Speaker 1: she suffers from quote dementia with delusions of persecution. So

861
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 1: she's just pretending there's actually a part. After she accepted

862
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,400
Speaker 1: this assignment, she went home and practiced like wildly staring.

863
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 2: Wow.

864
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,319
Speaker 1: But the whole thing is an act, so it's kind

865
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: of disturbing that it's that easy for her to be

866
00:44:57,480 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 1: diagnosed that way. It's decided that there's a only one

867
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:04,279
Speaker 1: place fit for an anonymous immigrant woman who's experiencing a

868
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: mental health crisis, Blackwell's Island. Nellie's taken to the asylum

869
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 1: by boat. When she steps on land, she's greeted by

870
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: two nurses spitting tobacco on the ground. Nellie asks them

871
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,680
Speaker 1: where she is, and someone responds, quote Blackwell's Island and

872
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:21,880
Speaker 1: insane place where you'll never get out of.

873
00:45:22,760 --> 00:45:23,240
Speaker 2: Horrifying.

874
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: So now Nellie drops her act completely. She starts talking

875
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:30,640
Speaker 1: and acting as herself, but the asylum staff either don't

876
00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 1: notice or they don't care. By dinner time, Nellie realizes

877
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 1: these patients' most basic needs are not being met. The

878
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: women are drastically underfed, and what little food they are

879
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:45,440
Speaker 1: served is basically inedible, so she does a whole write

880
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: up on this. That the food isn't salted, and they

881
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 1: can tell some of it is clearly spoiled, so they

882
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: try to make it tastes decent by dousing it with

883
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 1: things like mustard and vinegar, which usually makes it taste worse.

884
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 1: But the problem is if they don't eat their food,

885
00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 1: they're threatened with punishment, and if they do eat it

886
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: and get sick, then the staff makes fun of them

887
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: and basically just ignores them. So, as Nellie will eventually write, quote,

888
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: in our short walks, we passed the kitchen where food

889
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:21,440
Speaker 1: was prepared for the nurses and doctors. There we got

890
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: glimpses of melons and grapes and all kinds of fruits,

891
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,000
Speaker 1: beautiful white bread and nice meats, and the hungry feeling

892
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: would be increased tenfold.

893
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

894
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:35,279
Speaker 1: So there's definitely an argument for corruption here where the

895
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,400
Speaker 1: city is giving this hospital money and the money is

896
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,359
Speaker 1: not going to take care of the people that need

897
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,839
Speaker 1: to be at the hospital. They're just keeping it all

898
00:46:42,920 --> 00:46:45,439
Speaker 1: up at the top. And this is just a tip

899
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 1: of the iceberg. Nelly will later write about being forced

900
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 1: to take freezing cold baths once a week, where the

901
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 1: women are stripped naked plunged into a large tin tub

902
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 1: filled with bathwater that's already been used by a bunch

903
00:46:58,520 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: of patients.

904
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 2: I've written about that in the book about Oh, just

905
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 2: like everyone uses the same bathwater, they're using.

906
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,760
Speaker 1: The same bathwater to the degree where eventually it becomes

907
00:47:08,760 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 1: a sort of sludge, which is so disgusting my god.

908
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: Nelly reports, quote, they said, if I did not want

909
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: to bathe, that they would use force and that it

910
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: would not be very gentle. I shivered. They began to

911
00:47:22,040 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 1: undress me as one by one they pulled off my clothes.

912
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 1: The water was ice cold, and I began to protest.

913
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: I begged, at least that the patients being made to

914
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: go away, but I was ordered to shut up. My

915
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: teeth chattered and my limbs were goose fleshed and blue

916
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 1: with cold. Suddenly I got one after the other three

917
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: buckets of water over my head, ice cold water too

918
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:45,359
Speaker 1: into my eyes, my nose, and my mouth. I think

919
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: I experienced some of the sensations of a drowning person

920
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:52,240
Speaker 1: as they dragged me, gasping, shivering and quaking from the tub.

921
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 2: Oh my god. At that point she's like, oh shit.

922
00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:58,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, She's like I just got here and this is

923
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:02,240
Speaker 1: already what it's like. So after being washed, Nelly's wiped

924
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,279
Speaker 1: down with a sopping wet communal towel, sent away with

925
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: wet hair, given a wet slip, sent to bed in

926
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: a freezing cold room where the only thing she has

927
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,360
Speaker 1: to cover herself is a scratchy blanket that's too short

928
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 1: to cover her body. That idea like stopped me as

929
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,719
Speaker 1: I was writing where I'm like, I'm right now furious

930
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: at that how little it would take to just have

931
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: the basic comforts. It just needs to be a blanket

932
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: long enough to fit the whole bed so that people

933
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 1: can just have a decent rest.

934
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,879
Speaker 2: And that's people like we're thinking about ourselves, like we're

935
00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: of sound mind. Let's say, to be like suffering from

936
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 2: a mental illness that is so bad that you had

937
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,239
Speaker 2: to get sent to this island and then to be

938
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,600
Speaker 2: treated that way, I mean, right, it's abhorrent.

939
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like they're doing anything they can to make

940
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,080
Speaker 1: everything that much worse for you. There's no comfort or

941
00:48:56,120 --> 00:49:01,040
Speaker 1: care or quiet or anything. Yeah, horrible. She writes about

942
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 1: the other women that she's seen being bathed who are

943
00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: visibly sick and worries about what the cold night might

944
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:10,239
Speaker 1: do to their health. In one heartbreaking example, Nelly says

945
00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:12,440
Speaker 1: that quote nearly all night long, I listened to a

946
00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 1: woman cry about the cold and beg for God to

947
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: let her die. End quote. So Nellie sees that same

948
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 1: woman the next day, and she's elderly and blind, and

949
00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: the nurses treat her absolutely terribly. She later reports, quote,

950
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: sometimes the attendants would jerk her around. They would let

951
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 1: her walk and heartlessly laughed when she bumped against the

952
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 1: table or the edge of benches.

953
00:49:35,880 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 2: Oh oh god.

954
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 1: End quote. So this also is this sort of kind

955
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: of institutional housing gone unchecked. If there's no funds, no

956
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 1: one's getting paid, they're having the bottom of the barrel

957
00:49:48,960 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: type of people working there. Then that invites people with

958
00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:54,800
Speaker 1: that personality.

959
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:55,840
Speaker 2: Right, cruelty cruelty.

960
00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: Maybe you're masochist, maybe you're a sociopath. They're so exposed

961
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: and so vulnerable. The cruelty that Nellie describes at the

962
00:50:04,520 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 1: hands of the asylum's nurses is unbelievably sadistic and terrible.

963
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: She sees or hears about women being taunted, hit, choked,

964
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:16,719
Speaker 1: and psychologically tortured. Nellie experiences some of this herself. She

965
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: writes about how she and the other patients are forced

966
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 1: to sit on an uncomfortable bench for long stretches of

967
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: time and simply stare at a wall. The women are

968
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,520
Speaker 1: punished if they don't maintain perfect posture, or if they

969
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 1: readjust to get more comfortable. Nellie says, quote, take a

970
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:36,319
Speaker 1: perfectly sane and healthy woman, shut her up, and make

971
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 1: her sit from six am to eight pm on straight

972
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,759
Speaker 1: back benches, do not allow her to talk or move

973
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: during these hours, Give her no reading and let her

974
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:48,480
Speaker 1: know nothing of the world or its doings. Give her

975
00:50:48,520 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: bad food and harsh treatment, and see how long it

976
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: will take to make her insane.

977
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 2: Holy shit end quote.

978
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, these are columns being delivered just in people's regular newspapers.

979
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: They suddenly have this access and insight to something that's

980
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: happening right there, right by it. Right It's hard to

981
00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: imagine a more awful place for someone experiencing mental distress.

982
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: These patients are hungry, cold, and subjected to constant abuse

983
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 1: and humiliation. But there's another harrowing aspect to Nelly's reporting.

984
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,400
Speaker 1: She realizes that many of the women in the asylum

985
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,560
Speaker 1: aren't there for any justifiable medical reason. This includes a

986
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 1: young woman named Sarah Fishbaum, whose quote husband put her

987
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 1: in the asylum because she had a fondness for men

988
00:51:35,320 --> 00:51:39,320
Speaker 1: other than himself. Nellie also befriends a woman named Josephine

989
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:42,479
Speaker 1: death Pro, who moved to New York from France, where

990
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: most of her family still lives. Josephine tells Nelly that

991
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:50,000
Speaker 1: before being sent to Blackwell's Island, she'd contracted a severe

992
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 1: viral illness and nearly died. And while she was very sick,

993
00:51:54,040 --> 00:51:56,680
Speaker 1: she was taken to some sort of station and it's

994
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 1: unclear if it was a police station or a firehouse,

995
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,600
Speaker 1: where she was unable to communicate with the staff because

996
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,959
Speaker 1: of the language barrier, and for seemingly no other reason

997
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,240
Speaker 1: than she didn't speak English, Josephine was sent to Blackwell's Island.

998
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: Oh my god, nightmare.

999
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:13,560
Speaker 1: So she's like sick and like doesn't know what to do,

1000
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:16,360
Speaker 1: so she goes to like the first kind of place

1001
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 1: she thinks is supposed to help her, and this is

1002
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,520
Speaker 1: the result. It's unclear how long Josephine has been at

1003
00:52:22,520 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: the asylum at the time of Nelly's visit, but enough

1004
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: time has passed that she now seems to be able

1005
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: to speak decent English. Oly shit Sarah. Josephine and other

1006
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: women in the asylum tell Nelly that they are quote

1007
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 1: without hope of release, meaning that they believe they're stuck

1008
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:45,239
Speaker 1: there forever, and Nellie probably relates. She's been on Blackwell's

1009
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: Island for an entire hellish week, has no way of

1010
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 1: contacting anyone on the outside. She's exhausted, famished, and on

1011
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 1: edge She'll later write that being in the asylum is

1012
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 1: quote a human rat trap. It's easy to get in,

1013
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 1: but once there, it's possible to get out.

1014
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:01,760
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

1015
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 1: But thank god, Nelly has the one thing that no

1016
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 1: other woman or person on black Weell's Island has, and

1017
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,560
Speaker 1: that's Joseph Pulitzer's legal team. On her tenth day in

1018
00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 1: the asylum, Pulitzer's attorney shows up and informs the staff

1019
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 1: that he's there to pick up a New York World

1020
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,280
Speaker 1: reporter who has been admitted under the name Nellie Brown.

1021
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 1: This is presumably a mortifying and horrifying moment for the

1022
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:31,440
Speaker 1: asylum's administrators. Nelly is rescued and now has a story

1023
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: to tell, but leaving is difficult. It's very difficult, and

1024
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:39,160
Speaker 1: she would later write, quote sadly, I said farewell to

1025
00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: all I knew as I passed them on my way

1026
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,239
Speaker 1: to freedom and life, while they were left behind to

1027
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 1: a fate worse than death. There was a certain pain

1028
00:53:47,480 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: in leaving. For ten days, I had been one of them.

1029
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 1: It seemed intensely selfish to leave them to their suffering.

1030
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 1: Days later, The New York World publishes Nelly's first article

1031
00:53:57,960 --> 00:54:01,400
Speaker 1: on Blackwell's island, and she becomes an overnight sensation.

1032
00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:02,320
Speaker 2: Damn.

1033
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: In the coming days, her reporting is reprinted in newspapers

1034
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: across the country. And I'm about to read you part

1035
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,799
Speaker 1: of one of those columns, and all of them, all

1036
00:54:11,800 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 1: these quotes I'm reading you from Nellie Bly. It all

1037
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,719
Speaker 1: gets turned into her book Ten Days in a Madhouse,

1038
00:54:17,840 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 1: Got It? So this part, she says, I always made

1039
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: a point of telling doctors I was sane and asking

1040
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: to be released. But the more I endeavored to assure

1041
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,279
Speaker 1: them of my sanity, the more they doubted it. What

1042
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: are you doctors here for? I asked one whose name

1043
00:54:32,200 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: I cannot recall, to take care of the patients and

1044
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,920
Speaker 1: test their sanity. He replied very well, I said, there

1045
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:41,319
Speaker 1: are sixteen doctors on this island, and accepting two, I've

1046
00:54:41,360 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 1: never seen them pay any attention to the patients. How

1047
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,480
Speaker 1: can a doctor judge a woman's sanity by merely bidding

1048
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:50,520
Speaker 1: her good morning and refusing to hear her please for release?

1049
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 1: Even the sick ones know it's useless to say anything,

1050
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: for the answer will be that it is their imagination.

1051
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,440
Speaker 1: Try every test on me, I have urged others, and

1052
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: tell me, am I sane? Or insane. Try my pulse,

1053
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: my heart, my eyes, ask me to stretch out my

1054
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 1: arm to work my fingers, as doctor Field did at Bellevue,

1055
00:55:09,160 --> 00:55:11,680
Speaker 1: and then tell me if I am sane, they would

1056
00:55:11,680 --> 00:55:15,239
Speaker 1: not heed me, for they thought I raved. Again, I

1057
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,479
Speaker 1: said to one, you have no right to keep sane

1058
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: people here. I am sane, have always been so, and

1059
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 1: I must insist on a thorough examination or be released.

1060
00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,919
Speaker 1: Several of the women here are also sane. Why can't

1061
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 1: they be free? They are insane, was the reply, and

1062
00:55:30,680 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 1: suffering from delusions. After a long talk with doctor Ingram,

1063
00:55:34,440 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 1: he said, I will transfer you to a quieter ward.

1064
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,160
Speaker 1: An hour later, Miss Grady called me into the hall,

1065
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: and after calling me all the vile and profane names

1066
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: a woman could ever remember, she told me that it

1067
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 1: was a lucky thing for my hide that I was transferred.

1068
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:50,400
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

1069
00:55:51,760 --> 00:55:54,640
Speaker 1: So as more and more people are reading Nelly's harrowing

1070
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: first hand expose, the heat on the asylum administration starts

1071
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: to get turned up. Eventually, she is called to testify

1072
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 1: at a grand jury hearing about the abuses she witnessed

1073
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:09,560
Speaker 1: at Blackwell's Island. Her testimony includes returning to the asylum

1074
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 1: with the jury to inspect the asylum and compare it

1075
00:56:14,360 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 1: to how she described it in her columns. So here's

1076
00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 1: another part of her book. She says, the jurors then

1077
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:24,400
Speaker 1: visited the kitchen. It was very clean, and two barrels

1078
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 1: of salt stood conspicuously near the open door. The bread

1079
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 1: on exhibition was beautifully white and wholly unlike what was

1080
00:56:31,840 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 1: given us to eat. We found the halls in the

1081
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: finest order. The beds were improved, and in Hall seven

1082
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,920
Speaker 1: the buckets in which we were compelled to wash had

1083
00:56:40,960 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: been replaced with bright new basins.

1084
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:45,319
Speaker 2: Bullshit right.

1085
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 1: The institution was on exhibition, and no fault could be found.

1086
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 1: But the women I had spoke of where were they?

1087
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: Not one was to be found where I had left them.

1088
00:56:55,960 --> 00:56:59,320
Speaker 1: If my assertions were not true in regard to these patients,

1089
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 1: why should the latter be changed so to make me

1090
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 1: unable to find them? Miss Neville complained before the jury

1091
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:10,080
Speaker 1: of being changed several times when we visited the hall.

1092
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:13,920
Speaker 1: Later she was returned to her old place. Mary Hughes,

1093
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 1: of whom I had spoken as appearing sane, was not

1094
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: to be found. Some relatives had taken her away.

1095
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:20,560
Speaker 2: That's good.

1096
00:57:21,240 --> 00:57:23,880
Speaker 1: Where they knew not the fair woman I spoke of,

1097
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,800
Speaker 1: who had been sent there because she was poor, they said,

1098
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: had been transferred to another island. They denied all knowledge

1099
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 1: of the Mexican woman and said that there never had

1100
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,520
Speaker 1: been such a patient. Missus Cotter had been discharged, and

1101
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:40,880
Speaker 1: Bridget mcguinnis and Rebecca Ferrin had been transferred to other quarters.

1102
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 1: The German girl Margaret was not to be found, and

1103
00:57:44,160 --> 00:57:48,600
Speaker 1: Louise had been sent elsewhere from Hall six. The frenchwoman Josephine,

1104
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:52,480
Speaker 1: a great healthy woman, they said, was dying of paralysis,

1105
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 1: and we could not see her. If I was wrong

1106
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 1: in my judgment of these patients' sanity, why was all

1107
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: this done? I saw Tilly mayerd and she had changed

1108
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:04,720
Speaker 1: so much for the worst that I shuddered when I

1109
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 1: looked at her. I hardly expected the Grand Jury to

1110
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: sustain me after they saw everything different from what it

1111
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: had been while I was there. Yet they did, and

1112
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: their report to the court advises all the changes made

1113
00:58:16,600 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: that I had proposed. I have one consolation for my work.

1114
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:23,600
Speaker 1: On the strength of my story, the Committee of Appropriation

1115
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: provides one million dollars more than ever was given before,

1116
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 1: for the benefit of the insane.

1117
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 2: A million dollars. That's amazing.

1118
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:36,040
Speaker 1: So the expose pays off. The court orders the asylum

1119
00:58:36,080 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 1: to make significant changes in patient care. They increase the

1120
00:58:39,560 --> 00:58:42,760
Speaker 1: asylum's funding by a million dollars, which is the equivalent

1121
00:58:42,880 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: of thirty two million dollars in today's Holy shit. Unfortunately,

1122
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: after a few years, things go back to the old

1123
00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:55,360
Speaker 1: ways and Blackwell's Island Asylum is once again neglected by

1124
00:58:55,360 --> 00:58:58,920
Speaker 1: the city. And within a decade of this reporting of

1125
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: Nelly's reporting, not my reporting, I'm not a reporter, quick

1126
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 1: reminder for everybody. Within a decade of Nelly's reporting, it

1127
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:10,919
Speaker 1: closes for good. So essentially they increase it. But where

1128
00:59:10,960 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: does the money go. If the people in the administration

1129
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 1: are corrupt or they're siphoning stuff, they have no problem

1130
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:20,000
Speaker 1: treating their patients like that.

1131
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:20,760
Speaker 2: Totally.

1132
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:25,200
Speaker 1: So Nellie bly becomes such a star after her expos

1133
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: on Blackwell's Island. It actually starts a trend across the

1134
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:32,880
Speaker 1: country where publishers start hiring what they call stunt girls

1135
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 1: to take on their own socially conscious undercover assignments.

1136
00:59:37,080 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 2: Wow. Right.

1137
00:59:38,360 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: They tackle everything from the importance of ambulances to abortion access.

1138
00:59:42,760 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 2: Wow.

1139
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 1: And some of these stories lead to meaningful reforms, laws,

1140
00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: and policy changes, which is like an amazing detail that

1141
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:54,720
Speaker 1: I never knew in basically like women journalists.

1142
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 2: That's incredible.

1143
00:59:56,200 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the New York World continues to send its star

1144
00:59:59,080 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: reporter on assignment that involve increasingly elaborate setups and disguises.

1145
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: Over the years, Nelly poses as everything from a chorus girl,

1146
01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 1: to a domestic worker to a quote unwed mother to

1147
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:13,360
Speaker 1: expose the baby buying trade.

1148
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 2: Holy shit.

1149
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: But amazingly, Nelly doesn't reach the height of her fame

1150
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 1: until eighteen eighty nine, at the age of twenty five.

1151
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:28,600
Speaker 2: Twenty five old lady at that point.

1152
01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 1: This is when she sets out to beat Phileas Fogg's

1153
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:35,160
Speaker 1: record and travel around the world in less than eighty days.

1154
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,439
Speaker 1: What so that novel Around the World in Eighty Days

1155
01:00:39,480 --> 01:00:42,880
Speaker 1: had come out about fifteen years prior, and a play

1156
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: based on the book ran in front of sold out

1157
01:00:44,720 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 1: audiences in New York City, and no one had ever

1158
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 1: tried to actually circle the globe in such a short

1159
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:54,080
Speaker 1: amount of time. PBS estimates that even the most adventurous

1160
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: nineteenth century person might be able to pull it off

1161
01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: in around a year and a historian named Mitchell Stevens says, quote,

1162
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: when Nellie BLI actually decided to go all around the world,

1163
01:01:06,480 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: I mean that was like going up in the space shuttle.

1164
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 2: Holy shit. Right.

1165
01:01:11,240 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: She is armed with just one small bag and what

1166
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,560
Speaker 1: will become her signature checkered overcoat, and Nellie sets off

1167
01:01:18,600 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 1: on her adventure from New York. She takes trains, ships, horses, rickshaws,

1168
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,080
Speaker 1: anything she can find to complete her journey. In addition

1169
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: to sending regular dispatches back to the New York world,

1170
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:34,600
Speaker 1: she also talks with reporters along the way and continues

1171
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:38,160
Speaker 1: to wear her politics on her sleeve. When asked about

1172
01:01:38,160 --> 01:01:43,000
Speaker 1: her ambitious journey, Nellie tells a San Francisco Chronicle reporter quote, Oh,

1173
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's not so very much for a

1174
01:01:45,040 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 1: woman to do who has the pluck, energy and independence

1175
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: which characterize many women in this day. Yes, so she's

1176
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 1: just repping, repping, repping, wrapping.

1177
01:01:56,280 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 2: I love it.

1178
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 1: Maren always includes stuff like this, which I adore her for.

1179
01:01:59,720 --> 01:02:05,320
Speaker 1: But the Smithsonian writes, quote Nelly's observation during her trials

1180
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 1: are astute and frequently humorous, though some of her characterizations

1181
01:02:09,400 --> 01:02:11,640
Speaker 1: will seem racist. By today's standards.

1182
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 2: Oh dear, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1183
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: It's eighteen eighty nine. This is the way it is.

1184
01:02:17,520 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 2: Sure, it's all problematic. Life is problematic back then.

1185
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:26,360
Speaker 1: We all see each other in very narrow, desperate ways. Yeah,

1186
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 1: just being fair and balanced. Maarn put that in. So

1187
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 1: The New York World promotes Nellie's travel stunt, and they

1188
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: basically make it this huge event. The public cannot get enough.

1189
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,360
Speaker 1: According to PBS quote, Nellie Bly songs were being sung

1190
01:02:40,400 --> 01:02:45,320
Speaker 1: in music halls and nelly bly housecoat was advertised. That's

1191
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:48,760
Speaker 1: kind of ironic. The World the newspaper, not afraid to

1192
01:02:48,800 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 1: cash in on its star reporter, even marketed a parlor

1193
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,560
Speaker 1: game called Round the World with Nellie Bly. When they

1194
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 1: announce a contest for fans to send in guesses on

1195
01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:01,920
Speaker 1: how long it'll take Nelly's to complete her trip, nearly

1196
01:03:02,080 --> 01:03:03,919
Speaker 1: a million people participate.

1197
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,920
Speaker 2: Holy shit, I hope she got a cut of the earnings.

1198
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 1: I know, I hope she got a cut of that

1199
01:03:08,920 --> 01:03:12,800
Speaker 1: house coat. So in the end, Nelly beat Phineas Fogg

1200
01:03:12,920 --> 01:03:15,960
Speaker 1: by over a week. She makes the trip around the

1201
01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 1: world in seventy two days, six hours, eleven minutes, and

1202
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 1: fourteen seconds, and with it becomes the most famous woman

1203
01:03:24,160 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: in the world.

1204
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:25,960
Speaker 2: Wow.

1205
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 1: Before long, Nellie's brand of stunt reporting is seen as

1206
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:34,880
Speaker 1: somewhat passe. That's how it is. Time passes, but she's

1207
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,680
Speaker 1: not ready to hang up her hat or shy away

1208
01:03:37,680 --> 01:03:42,280
Speaker 1: from taboo subjects. PBS reports that quote. In eighteen ninety three,

1209
01:03:42,320 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: she interviewed one of the most controversial political figures in

1210
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: the country, anarchist Emma Goldman, when social unrest seemed to

1211
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 1: be tearing the nation apart. BLI went to Chicago to

1212
01:03:53,040 --> 01:03:56,080
Speaker 1: cover the Pullman Railroad strike, and she was the only

1213
01:03:56,200 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 1: reporter to tell the story from the striker's point of view.

1214
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 2: Wow. End quote.

1215
01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: So around this time, Nellie also gets a high profile

1216
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,520
Speaker 1: interview with a serial killer that you might remember because

1217
01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: I covered her at our twenty seventeen live show at

1218
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:15,360
Speaker 1: the Beacon Theater in New York City. It was Lizzie Halliday,

1219
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 1: and Nelly was somehow able to compel Lizzie to share

1220
01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:24,880
Speaker 1: information that she had previously never shared before about her

1221
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 1: private life. So she was a great reporter. Yeah. And

1222
01:04:28,200 --> 01:04:32,280
Speaker 1: then in eighteen ninety five, when she's thirty years old,

1223
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:36,720
Speaker 1: Nellie marries a seventy year old millionaire manufacturer and businessman

1224
01:04:37,240 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 1: named Robert Seaman, and she becomes involved in his company's

1225
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:51,040
Speaker 1: plot twist. Wow, right, yeah, I mean look, look, listen, listen,

1226
01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 1: she nailed down a millionaire. Yeah, she took care of business.

1227
01:04:55,680 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 1: She's a smart lady.

1228
01:04:58,440 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 2: Whatever, whatever her thing. Who are we to judge.

1229
01:05:01,600 --> 01:05:04,080
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think of, like what actors are

1230
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 1: seventy right now? Although I bet you in an eighteen

1231
01:05:06,120 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: ninety five seventy year old is like one hundred and

1232
01:05:08,680 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: forty year old in today's money.

1233
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 2: I think so, But yeah, who knows.

1234
01:05:13,600 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: Here's why Maren thinks. And then, of course I agree

1235
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 1: with Maren because she's the researcher that it was a

1236
01:05:18,800 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 1: positive and like it was actually a sincere relationship because

1237
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 1: she becomes involved in his companies. She invents and patents

1238
01:05:27,400 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 1: a milk can and a stackable garbage can under her

1239
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 1: married name. Wow.

1240
01:05:33,200 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 2: So maybe he's the only one who took her seriously

1241
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 2: and like right, he wanted her in his business and

1242
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 2: in his world and not just treated her.

1243
01:05:40,840 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 1: Like a you know, she certainly wasn't just sitting at

1244
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:46,400
Speaker 1: home like painting her nails and being like, yeah, I'm

1245
01:05:46,440 --> 01:05:49,360
Speaker 1: a millionaire's wife. She's like, I got some ideas. I

1246
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:52,000
Speaker 1: dig it me too. She and Robert have a happy

1247
01:05:52,000 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 1: marriage until his passing ten years later. Then after his death,

1248
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: Nelly runs his factories and she sticks to her tried

1249
01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 1: and true principles. She provides employees with generous health care

1250
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:08,760
Speaker 1: benefits and access to recreational facilities, among other things. But

1251
01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:11,520
Speaker 1: even though she's a good boss, she struggles to manage

1252
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 1: the large company, and her biographer Brooke Kroger, reports that

1253
01:06:15,800 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: she was quote hopeless at understanding the financial aspects of

1254
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:23,600
Speaker 1: her business and ultimately lost everything. But it's Nellie Bly.

1255
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 1: So she's down, but she's not out. Instead, she throws

1256
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 1: herself back into journalism, heads to Europe and reports from

1257
01:06:33,000 --> 01:06:39,040
Speaker 1: the trenches of World War One. Oh why yeah, yeah,

1258
01:06:39,120 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 1: I'll let you know how horrifying World War One is. Everybody,

1259
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,920
Speaker 1: it's mean, Nellie Bly. She also uses her byline to

1260
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 1: help find homes for orphan children, and she profiles the

1261
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: women's suffrage movement and Susan B. Anthony, and according to Kroger,

1262
01:06:54,640 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: quote Anthony had been interviewed scores of times during a

1263
01:06:58,120 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 1: half century in the suffrage movement, but never had she

1264
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:05,360
Speaker 1: revealed more information about herself than she did in her

1265
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 1: exchange with Bly. Yes, so she is the shit.

1266
01:07:09,760 --> 01:07:10,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1267
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:15,080
Speaker 1: In January of nineteen twenty two, Nellie Bly dies of pneumonia.

1268
01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 1: She's just fifty seven years old.

1269
01:07:17,440 --> 01:07:18,560
Speaker 2: Wow. So young.

1270
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,080
Speaker 1: To this day, Nellie's considered a pioneering investigative journalist and

1271
01:07:23,320 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 1: early feminist icon. She's been the subject of countless books.

1272
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,720
Speaker 1: She's been depicted on a postage stamp. She's the namesake

1273
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 1: of express trains, amusement parks, and even a species of tarantula.

1274
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:35,360
Speaker 2: Hey.

1275
01:07:35,600 --> 01:07:40,080
Speaker 1: Her story has been featured on multiple television shows. Today,

1276
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:42,360
Speaker 1: if you go to Roosevelt Island, you can visit a

1277
01:07:42,400 --> 01:07:46,200
Speaker 1: monument built in Nellie Bly's honor. It's the same spot

1278
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:50,560
Speaker 1: where Blackwell's Island Asylum used to stand, and the monument

1279
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 1: is called The Girl Puzzle, which was the title of

1280
01:07:54,000 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 1: Nelly's first article for the Pittsburgh Dispatch that demanded women

1281
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 1: and girls be given more opportunities to thrive in American society.

1282
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 1: According to the monument's website quote, the Girl Puzzle honors

1283
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,880
Speaker 1: Nellie Bly by presenting on a monumental scale faces of

1284
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 1: many women who have endured hardship but are stronger for it.

1285
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:18,600
Speaker 1: The monument gives visibility to Asian, Black, young, old, immigrant

1286
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:22,560
Speaker 1: and queer women. Their stories and lives are forever commemorated

1287
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:26,719
Speaker 1: alongside Nellie Bly, whose face is cast in silver bronze.

1288
01:08:27,760 --> 01:08:31,880
Speaker 1: And that is the spectacular story of legendary reporter Elizabeth

1289
01:08:31,920 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 1: Pinky Cochrane, who's better known as Nellie Bly, the woman

1290
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:39,000
Speaker 1: who caused a sensation by reporting on the world from

1291
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:44,240
Speaker 1: a woman's point of view. Damn, damn that one was

1292
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:47,840
Speaker 1: Maaron McGlashan. That was her idea. She found that story.

1293
01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:50,599
Speaker 1: She's such a good researcher and such a good writer.

1294
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:53,559
Speaker 1: I mean, that just makes me happy. I didn't know

1295
01:08:53,640 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 1: that woman existed. Why don't we know this woman exists?

1296
01:08:56,439 --> 01:08:59,559
Speaker 2: I mean I knew that vaguely story. I mean I

1297
01:08:59,560 --> 01:09:02,800
Speaker 2: thought it was Aldo Rivera of course at first, so

1298
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:05,800
Speaker 2: shave on me. But I didn't know she was such

1299
01:09:05,800 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 2: a fucking force. That's amazing. It's amazing. Well, great job

1300
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:13,080
Speaker 2: you've killed that one. I really loved it.

1301
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,320
Speaker 1: I guess that's the importance of getting an education and

1302
01:09:16,439 --> 01:09:19,519
Speaker 1: learning history, which I never really understood before and wish

1303
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:21,960
Speaker 1: someone had pointed out, which is just like, there's lots

1304
01:09:22,000 --> 01:09:24,880
Speaker 1: of people that have come before us, that have kicked

1305
01:09:24,920 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 1: ass and then gone away as we all do.

1306
01:09:27,720 --> 01:09:33,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's those people that make like incremental movements forward

1307
01:09:33,479 --> 01:09:36,080
Speaker 2: that as a whole, you put all the people together

1308
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:39,120
Speaker 2: and it's this big movement. But like each little story

1309
01:09:39,160 --> 01:09:43,360
Speaker 2: and each life contributes so much to how you and

1310
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:46,519
Speaker 2: I are able to talk about ourselves and women and

1311
01:09:46,520 --> 01:09:49,560
Speaker 2: how we're able to be these confident women who we

1312
01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:51,559
Speaker 2: owe a lot to you, and I owe a lot

1313
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:56,559
Speaker 2: to this female investigative journalist who spoke the truth, you.

1314
01:09:56,479 --> 01:10:00,160
Speaker 1: Know, and when people are brave in the face of

1315
01:10:00,360 --> 01:10:03,120
Speaker 1: like when everything else is telling them they shouldn't be brave,

1316
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:06,719
Speaker 1: and you read about that and it's not twenty twenty three,

1317
01:10:07,000 --> 01:10:11,599
Speaker 1: it's eighty fucking eighty nine. Yeah, and she's twenty and

1318
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,839
Speaker 1: she's an orphan or you know, the orphan girl basically

1319
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:17,479
Speaker 1: where she's like, hey, how about you shut up? And

1320
01:10:17,560 --> 01:10:20,200
Speaker 1: I tell you how it actually is, Like we think

1321
01:10:20,240 --> 01:10:22,599
Speaker 1: people are just starting to do that now on social media,

1322
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:24,800
Speaker 1: but it's like, no, no, there's a long history of

1323
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:27,880
Speaker 1: very intelligent, smart women who have been doing this for

1324
01:10:27,920 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 1: a long time and then having people either erase their

1325
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 1: accomplishments or step in front of them and take credit

1326
01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:37,160
Speaker 1: for it. And it's great to be able to highlight

1327
01:10:37,600 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 1: somebody like that.

1328
01:10:38,320 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 2: I love that. Great job. Thank you to all of

1329
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:45,320
Speaker 2: you for listening and hanging out with us, being our friends.

1330
01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 1: Yes, you are all future Nelly Blise in your own way.

1331
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:52,559
Speaker 1: Get out there, give them hell and stay sexy and

1332
01:10:52,680 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 1: don't get murdered. Goat it.

1333
01:10:56,040 --> 01:11:04,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Elvis, do you want a cookie?

1334
01:11:06,439 --> 01:11:08,160
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production.

1335
01:11:08,360 --> 01:11:11,040
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

1336
01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 2: is Tessa Hughes.

1337
01:11:11,920 --> 01:11:13,840
Speaker 1: Our editor is Aristotle ass Vedo.

1338
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,080
Speaker 2: This episode was mixed by Leona Squillacci.

1339
01:11:16,280 --> 01:11:18,920
Speaker 1: Our researchers are Mayor McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1340
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 2: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail.

1341
01:11:21,560 --> 01:11:23,800
Speaker 1: Dot com and follow the show on Instagram at my

1342
01:11:23,880 --> 01:11:24,559
Speaker 1: Favorite Murder.

1343
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:27,479
Speaker 2: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1344
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:29,040
Speaker 2: Podcasts or wherever you get your.

1345
01:11:28,920 --> 01:11:31,160
Speaker 1: Podcasts, or you can watch us on YouTube. Search for

1346
01:11:31,240 --> 01:11:34,640
Speaker 1: My Favorite Murder, then like and subscribe. Goodbye,