1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how stupp 2 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,120 Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristen. Today's topic is one that has 4 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: been requested by a lot of you listeners out there. 5 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: It's a rather sensitive topic for a lot of women 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: and their partners. Um it's we're talking about miscarriages today. 7 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 1: It's a it's a common health issue that a lot 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: of people face, and we have never done anything just 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: kind of giving you the one oh one on miscarriages before, 10 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 1: so today we thought we would talk about the whole issue. Yeah, 11 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: And I think it's also important for us to talk 12 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: about miscarriage, not just because so many women experience it, 13 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: but because it's something that we don't talk about very much, 14 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 1: probably among ourselves, especially considering how common it is. Um. 15 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: So we're just gonna, yeah, walk through what it is 16 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: and why happens, more importantly, almost why it doesn't happen, 17 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:08,560 Speaker 1: and the psychological repercussions. So, first off, what is a 18 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: miscarriage And this is coming from the National Institutes of Health, 19 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,600 Speaker 1: and technically speaking, it's the spontaneous loss of a fetus 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: before the twenty week of pregnancy. Because pregnancy loss after 21 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,080 Speaker 1: the twenty week is actually called a pre term delivery, right. 22 00:01:26,160 --> 00:01:31,160 Speaker 1: And another term for miscarriage is spontaneous abortion, and spontaneous 23 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: being the key word. This refers to a naturally occurring event, 24 00:01:34,959 --> 00:01:38,199 Speaker 1: not anything to do with medical abortions or surgical abortions. 25 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: And there are other terms for early loss of pregnancy, 26 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 1: including what's termed a complete abortion, wherein all of the 27 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: tissue of conception leaves the body, and there's incomplete, inevitable, infected, 28 00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: and missed abortion. All of those different terms relate to 29 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:01,280 Speaker 1: how much of a tissue leaves the body, whether or not, 30 00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 1: as infected abortion implies whether or not there was some 31 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: kind of infection in the womb. Um Missed abortion, for instance, 32 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:12,240 Speaker 1: is when the pregnancy is lost but the products of 33 00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: conception as they're called, remain inside of the body. Right. 34 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 1: And there's also this term called threatened miscarriage. This is 35 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: basically when the symptoms of miscarriage occur, whether without vaginal bleeding, 36 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:27,919 Speaker 1: and half of threatened miscarriages do in fact in in 37 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,919 Speaker 1: pregnancy loss, and so the signs of miscarriage include things 38 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: like cramping, bleeding, and lower back pain. And there was 39 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 1: one column that I was reading in Slate by a 40 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 1: woman named Sarah shem Kiss who was talking about how 41 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:48,400 Speaker 1: miscarriage is often portrayed on television as this one time event, 42 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:50,360 Speaker 1: like where a woman goes to the bathroom and she 43 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: sees blood and then it's over. And one thing that 44 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people might not realize is that this 45 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,800 Speaker 1: can be a process that can take at least in 46 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: shem Kisses case, as long as a week to happen. Um. So, yeah, 47 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 1: and that just is just kind of putting it out 48 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:11,440 Speaker 1: there to clarify how the process can can vary for 49 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: different women. Right, And so we should take a look 50 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: at the causes of miscarriage because contrary to you know, 51 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: there's a lot of misinformation I feel like, around around 52 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 1: things like this, having sex, exercise, mild falls, and most 53 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:32,560 Speaker 1: medications do not cause miscarriage. Again, sex exercise, mild falls, 54 00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:36,040 Speaker 1: medications not a cause of miscarriage. And a lot of 55 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 1: times when it happens, there might be some guilt on 56 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: the part of the mother and her partner thinking that 57 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,680 Speaker 1: there might be something wrong with their genes that cause 58 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: this pregnancy loss. But in fact, most miscarriages are caused 59 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 1: by chromosomal problems. That essentially make it impossible for the 60 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,480 Speaker 1: baby to develop, but those problems are usually not related 61 00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 1: two mothers or father's genes, right, And a common chromosomal 62 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: issue that comes up is that the embryo or fetus 63 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 1: has a chromosome that causes it to develop abnormally. And 64 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 1: this is not usually a sign of a condition that 65 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: could cause problems in future pregnancies because it usually happens 66 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: by chance when the egg divides and grows. And this 67 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: is actually a problem that causes at least half of miscarriages. 68 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 1: And one thing that medical scholars have been looking more 69 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:31,359 Speaker 1: closely at too in recent years is a correlation between 70 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:36,799 Speaker 1: miscarriage and partners age, not the mother's age, um they're 71 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 1: the frequency. For instance, of these kinds of chromosomal anomalies 72 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: in spermatozoa appear to increase with male age, So, for instance, 73 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: in two thousand four, there was a study published an 74 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 1: American Journal of Epidemiology which found that pregnancies by fathers 75 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 1: fifty years or older carried twice the risk of miscarriage 76 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: compar haired with pregnancies with younger fathers. And some other 77 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 1: possible risk factors for miscarriage include things like drunken alcohol 78 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:13,800 Speaker 1: abuse during pregnancy, exposure to environmental toxins, hormone problems, infection, obesity, 79 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: or on the flip side, being extremely underweight, um smoking, 80 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,839 Speaker 1: and problems with the body's immune response. Yeah, an age 81 00:05:21,920 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: can also be a factor for risk of miscarriage as well, 82 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 1: as we talked about in our episode on why it's 83 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: harder to get pregnant after thirty five, because the risk 84 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: of miscarriages hiring women who are older and at risk 85 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: starts to elevate after age thirty, but it really escalates 86 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 1: after forty. But no matter the age of the mother, 87 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,279 Speaker 1: miscarriage is most likely to happen early. In fact, most 88 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: miscarriages occurred during the first seven weeks of pregnancy. Eight 89 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,880 Speaker 1: out of ten miscarriages happened during the first three months 90 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: of pregnancy, and second trimester miscarriages happen in just one 91 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: to five of pregnancies. Yeah, I kind of put another way. 92 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: More than half of all pregnancies are spontaneously lost before 93 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: a woman even knows she's pregnant, before she even misses 94 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: a period. That's how common this happened. So in other words, 95 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:20,880 Speaker 1: women might have miscarriages and not even know it because 96 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: they didn't even realize they were pregnant, right, And you know, 97 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: as as horrifying as the experience of miscarriage is, typically, 98 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 1: statistically it is usually a one time occurrence. Most women 99 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: who miscarry go on to have a healthy pregnancy after 100 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: the miscarriage. However, there is a recovery period, and people 101 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: kind of debate how long this period should go on, 102 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,080 Speaker 1: you know, do you wait a long time, do you 103 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 1: try again immediately? Should you take you know, basically mental 104 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:54,119 Speaker 1: health into consideration when you're doing that. And while it 105 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: of course varies from person to person, the physical recovery 106 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: from miscarriage in most cases takes only a few hours 107 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: to a couple of days. Yeah, I mean, your periods 108 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: will likely return within four to six weeks, and it 109 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: is possible to become pregnant during the menstrual cycle immediately 110 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,760 Speaker 1: after a miscarriage. Now, that said, the World Health Organization 111 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: recommends waiting at least six months before trying to conceive. 112 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: That six month waiting period seems to be standard advice, 113 00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: although more recent studies are starting to call it in 114 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: a question. Because the w h O is recommending that 115 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:35,160 Speaker 1: six month wait time based largely on maternal health in 116 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: developing countries where medical care is less reliable and where 117 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: women tend to get pregnant at earlier ages. Correct. Yeah, 118 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: and the British Medical Journal actually says that women who 119 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: conceive within six months of a miscarriage instead of waiting 120 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: up to a year, end up reducing their risk of 121 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: another miscarriage by a third, and they also increase their 122 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 1: chances of a healthy and successful pregnancy. But Julius Shelley, 123 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: who's an associate professor at Deacon Universe City in Burwood, Australia, 124 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: wrote an editorial accompanying that British Medical Journal study offering 125 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,679 Speaker 1: a little bit of a qualification, saying, quote, we cannot 126 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,280 Speaker 1: really tell whether pregnancy is conceived very soon after a 127 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: miscarriage really do have better outcomes, or whether women and 128 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: couples who conceive quickly following a miscarriage have better outcomes 129 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: in subsequent pregnancy than couples who take longer to conceive. Right. 130 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,120 Speaker 1: And so, I mean it kind of depends person to 131 00:08:28,240 --> 00:08:30,800 Speaker 1: person really on your own personal health and all of 132 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: that stuff. I mean, if you're healthy and feel ready, 133 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: doctors say there might not be a need to wait, 134 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 1: you know, if you're if you're taking your prenatal vitamins 135 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: or your full like acid supplements. You know that that 136 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: usually starts months before you even conceive, as long as 137 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 1: you're maintaining a healthy weight including physical activity, uh and 138 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: eating a healthy diet, and of course managing stress and 139 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: avoiding alcohol smoking that sort of stuff. Yeah, and I 140 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,800 Speaker 1: would imagine too that that weight time might also depend 141 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 1: on the type of miscarriage that occurs, Like we were 142 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: referenced at the top of the podcasts of the various 143 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 1: kinds that can happen. Um. But one thing too that 144 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:10,599 Speaker 1: we wanted to mention is the question of whether or 145 00:09:10,679 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: not having a medical abortion of voluntary abortion in any 146 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: way predisposes you to miscarriage, because I think that is 147 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: a fairly common assumption. When I was just poking around 148 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: on Google looking for solid data on this, there were 149 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: a lot of uh, sort of inflammatory types of blog 150 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:33,760 Speaker 1: posts that immediately pop up saying that if you have 151 00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: an abortion, then you are risking you know, a subsequent 152 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 1: miscarriage or infertility. Um. However, the Royal College of Obstetricians 153 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: and Gynecologists says, quote, there are no proven associations between 154 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: induced abortion and subsequent topic pregnancy, placenta, previa, or infertility. 155 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 1: And one reason that some people have thought that miscar 156 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: that abortion might lead to miscarriage is because it's based 157 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: on old data. Basically, abortion technology has improved and made 158 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: it safer for the mother and left the uterus and 159 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: the cervix more intact, So there should not be a 160 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:21,040 Speaker 1: greater risk of miscarriage, right exactly. And one risk factor 161 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 1: that we didn't really touch on fully is the idea 162 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:27,720 Speaker 1: that women who have had previous miscarriages are at a 163 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: greater risk of having future miscarriages. And yes, this is 164 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,640 Speaker 1: a definite risk factor, but it is it is small. 165 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: Less than five percent of women have two consecutive miscarriages 166 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: and only one percent have three or more consecutive miscarriages. 167 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: And this is coming from the Mayo Clinic. Uh they 168 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: write that after two consecutive miscarriages, there's a seventy five 169 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: percent chance the next pregnancy will be maintained. Now, somewhat counterintuitively, 170 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: after three miscarriages, in fact, that risk drops to six 171 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: But when looking for the re sens why someone might 172 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: be experiencing recurrent miscarriages. But in cases of recurrent miscarriage, 173 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:12,320 Speaker 1: the big question mark often is why it's happening, because 174 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,320 Speaker 1: I believe this was reported on in the New York 175 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 1: Times that in fewer than half of couples experiencing that 176 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: will doctors pinpoint a definite cause, and the causes of 177 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: recurrent miscarriage really tied back to miscarriage overall. UH the 178 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: overwhelming majority of these recurrent miscarriages that happened because of 179 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:40,080 Speaker 1: chromosome or abnormalities, which, as we already discussed, increase with 180 00:11:40,120 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 1: the mother's age and with the father's age. There could 181 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: be genetic errors in the egg or sperm that result 182 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 1: in embryos with too many or too few chromosomes, but 183 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: environmental factors are rarely linked to pregnancy loss and there 184 00:11:54,760 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 1: have been no associations between environmental factors and recurrent pregnancy 185 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: loss established. There could would also be an inherited disorder 186 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: that raises a woman's risk of blood clots um also 187 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:09,960 Speaker 1: called thrombosis, that can increase the risk of fetal death 188 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,719 Speaker 1: in the second half of pregnancy as well. And if 189 00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 1: you experience multiple miscarriages, there there are tests that you 190 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: can have when you go to your doctor, things like 191 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: blood tests. They can evaluate it to detect problems with 192 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: hormones your immune system. There are chromosomal tests that you 193 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 1: and your partner, UH might both have your blood tested 194 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: to determine if chromosomes can be a factor. If there 195 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: is tissue from the miscarriage that's remaining that can be tested, 196 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:41,280 Speaker 1: and these chromosomal analyzes can basically see if there's some 197 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: inherited genetic cause that happens. And that's in less than 198 00:12:44,320 --> 00:12:47,040 Speaker 1: five percent of couples. But I mean, you know, talking 199 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: about the immune system problems and the hormonal problems. Like 200 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: you know, we mentioned in our thyroid episode that you 201 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: know that is both when you have something like graves 202 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 1: or hashimotos, that's both a hormone and an immune disorder problem. 203 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: So how having those tests leading up to pregnancy, whether 204 00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 1: you've had miscarriages or not, is very important. Yeah, and 205 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: and again we want to underscore that on the bright side, 206 00:13:08,920 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: about sixty of women with unexplained repeated miscarriages still go 207 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: on to have healthy pregnancies, So even if you've had 208 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: multiple miscarriages, it's certainly likely that you can still have 209 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 1: a baby. So we talked about the physical repercussions of miscarriage, 210 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 1: what what might be going on inside the body, but 211 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: we also need to talk about how miscarriage can impact 212 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: the mind and your emotional well being, not just for mothers, 213 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: but also for partners as well. So we're gonna get 214 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: into the psychology of pregnancy loss when we come right 215 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 1: back from a quick break and now back to the podcast. So, 216 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: we were talking a lot about the physical causes and 217 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: effects of miscarriages, but one thing we have not talked 218 00:13:56,960 --> 00:13:59,320 Speaker 1: about yet is the psychological effect, the burden that the 219 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: mother and her partner feel when this tragedy has happened, 220 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: and calling it a tragedy is I mean, I feel 221 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,480 Speaker 1: like a lot of times when miscarriages are discussed, they're 222 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:14,599 Speaker 1: kind of brushed off anyone outside of the couple or 223 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: the mother who is having the child. It's kind of 224 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: the attitude is like, oh, well, you'll be okay, just 225 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: try try again. Well, and especially if it's lost early 226 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:25,760 Speaker 1: and the pregnancy to right there seems to be kind 227 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 1: of this general misunderstanding about the emotional toll that a 228 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 1: miscarriage can take on a couple or a mother, however 229 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 1: early it happens. Traditionally, it's kind of this private event, 230 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: you know. I know a friend of mine had a 231 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: miscarriage before she had her children, and I didn't even 232 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: know about it. You know, it was once she was 233 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: pregnant with her now two year old that you know, 234 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: she said, oh, yeah, you know, early on, I had 235 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,600 Speaker 1: this thing. And and it's almost as if a lot 236 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: of moms feel like they're not allowed to be sad, 237 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: or they're not allowed to be sad in public. Yeah, 238 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,800 Speaker 1: but a new research suggests that some women might actually 239 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 1: more in for a lot longer than expected, which is, 240 00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, part of why we wanted to to talk 241 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: about this issue, to kind of open up these conversational 242 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: lines for women to feel more comfortable talking about these experiences, 243 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: because it can last even after the birth of a 244 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: healthy child, although of course the range and severity of 245 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:26,920 Speaker 1: the symptoms are going to vary, right and uh Janet Jaffee, 246 00:15:26,920 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: who is a clinical psychologist at the Center for Reproductive 247 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 1: Psychology in San Diego, says that it's kind of the 248 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 1: medical commonality of miscarriages that lead us to kind of 249 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:39,240 Speaker 1: brushing them off, to underestimate the impact that they can 250 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: have on a family. Um Jaffe says that it's a 251 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: traumatic loss not only of the pregnancy but of a 252 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: woman's sense of self and her hopes and her dreams 253 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,640 Speaker 1: of the future. She has lost her reproductive story and 254 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: it needs to be grieved. Yeah, and a woman who 255 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 1: has a miscarriage is understandably at risk for symptoms of 256 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 1: depression and anxiety, not just immediately following the miscarriage, but 257 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 1: in in the years to come and even after having 258 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: a healthy child. Women who miscarry also have a higher 259 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: risk of postpartum depression. And there is a paper published 260 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 1: in the British Journal of Psychiatry in two thousand eleven 261 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: looking at this, and the researcher followed more than thirteen 262 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: thousand women for three years post birth and of those 263 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: who had miscarriages, they were about hundred. Of those women 264 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: who had had a miscarriage, fiftent experienced clinically significant depression 265 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 1: and or exiety anxiety during and after the pregnancies for 266 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: up to those three years. And this can really affect 267 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: women as they become mothers, as they bear healthy children. 268 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: Um A study looked at women who had delivered a 269 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: child within nineteen months after a miscarriage and found that 270 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: of the infants had disorganized attachments to their mothers that 271 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,120 Speaker 1: it was still affecting them the way that they viewed 272 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: their healthy children. And not only can it take a 273 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: toll on a mother's relationship with her children, but understandably 274 00:17:07,720 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: it can take a toll on her relationship with her partner. Um. 275 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:16,000 Speaker 1: There have been there's been research into how miscarriage can 276 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:20,199 Speaker 1: impact UH sex life, for instance, and a lot of 277 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,879 Speaker 1: times you'll see in heterosexual relationships men might be ready 278 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,439 Speaker 1: to move on and wanted reignite that flame, whereas women 279 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 1: might not be ready to have sex for a while. Yeah, exactly. 280 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,880 Speaker 1: And we should look at at at partners, both both 281 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: male and female partners, when it comes to having a 282 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: miscarriage because traditionally, the feelings experienced by the partner tend 283 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: to be dismissed, both within the family and without, and 284 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: studies have shown that men are not satisfied with the 285 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: support they get from others. Nonetheless, research also has shown 286 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: that that men absolutely grew these losses as well, but 287 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: it might not be as intense or as enduring as 288 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: their partners, which is understandable because it's not as much 289 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: of a physical experience perhaps for them. Right in study 290 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Psychosomatic Research found that UM, for 291 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: both men and women in these situations, giving up their 292 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 1: personal expectations, hopes for and fantasies about the unborn child 293 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,480 Speaker 1: is a major source of grieving. Some men, on the 294 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: other hand, feel burdened, particularly by their wives grief or 295 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: depressive reactions. I'm sure, feeling helpless, not knowing what to 296 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: do or say. They can't say anything right exactly, I mean, 297 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 1: there's no way to magically fix that situation. Um. And 298 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: so you see sort of gender stereotypical differences emerging in 299 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: these studies of how men tend to manage their grief 300 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: compared to women. For instance, one study publish in n 301 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: A Journal of Reproductive and Infant Psychology found that men 302 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 1: might display less what they call immediate active grief, but 303 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: they might also be more vulnerable to feelings of despair 304 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: and difficulty coping, probably because of a sense of helplessness. Right. 305 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:15,040 Speaker 1: And while studies have shown that no matter how advanced 306 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:18,440 Speaker 1: the pregnancy is, the woman will likely feel the same 307 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: sense of loss, for men, the more advanced it is, 308 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: the greater their sense of loss, the more it's almost 309 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: like they're getting to know this little person from the 310 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 1: ultrasound on, whereas the woman's sense of grief is heightened 311 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: either way. Yeah, And there have been similar studies on 312 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: this conducted among lesbian couples as well, and it finds 313 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:43,159 Speaker 1: for the non pregnant lesbian partners similar feelings that that 314 00:19:43,320 --> 00:19:48,920 Speaker 1: husbands or boyfriends might experience in heterosexual relationships. Um for instance, 315 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: in one study talked about how often the response is, 316 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: you know, a sense of having not only lost the baby, 317 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,719 Speaker 1: but also kind of having lost emotionally speaking, the partner, 318 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: not knowing how to sort of rebuild that connection. How 319 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: do you move forward from that? Right, and researcher Denuda M. 320 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: Wachner said that lesbian couples do face kind of a 321 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: unique situation psychologically and emotionally in that they're going to 322 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 1: be a lot of people who didn't approve of this 323 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,720 Speaker 1: union and this pregnancy in the first place. So there 324 00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,760 Speaker 1: might even be a greater lack of support for them 325 00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: in this time. Well, they might have to go to 326 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: greater links as well to go about getting pregnant in 327 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 1: the first place. Right, And and that even ties in 328 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: with other studies that have shown that women who go 329 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: through like fertility treatments or IVF or something like that, 330 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: their grief tends to be extended past the point of 331 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: where other women are starting to move on. Yeah, And 332 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: and I don't want to leave gay fathers out of 333 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: the equation as well, because I'm sure there can be 334 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 1: a similar process. For instance, if you're, you know, hoping 335 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: to adopt and that falls through. I mean, any time 336 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: you're going to experience some kind of of loss of 337 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:10,120 Speaker 1: unexpected child, we need to be able to to talk 338 00:21:10,160 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: about it into to grieve with them and for them, 339 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: and allow that process to happen. So, so the question 340 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: would be, then, you know, if you are the friend, 341 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 1: what can you do if you find out that that 342 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:26,879 Speaker 1: someone you know has experienced a miscarriage. Well grief expert 343 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: Robbie Miller Kaplan stresses that a miscarriage is a death 344 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 1: in the family, and just like any death, the bereaved 345 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: must grieve for the loved ones they have lost. And 346 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: so she says, first it's really important to acknowledge the 347 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: loss that your friend is experienced. Yeah, she says, you 348 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,359 Speaker 1: should treat your friend just like you would treat a 349 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,440 Speaker 1: loved one who had who has had a family member die. 350 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: Send flowers, write a note, bring a meal, or just 351 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: offer to visit and listen. You know, right, And she 352 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: stresses that when you're talking with your friend and listening 353 00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 1: to your friend, kind of repeat things back to to 354 00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: him or her so that she or he knows you're listening, 355 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: you're actually taking it all in and that they're being heard. Yeah, 356 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: and this is this also echoes what we've heard from 357 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: stuff I've never told you listeners who have written and 358 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 1: requesting this topic sort of not only the need to 359 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: be able to talk about it and sort of isolation 360 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,639 Speaker 1: that they felt, but also how helpful it was in 361 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: instances when they did have friends who acknowledged the loss 362 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: and took it seriously and didn't just pat them on 363 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,359 Speaker 1: the head and say, oh, well, you'll get pregnant down 364 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,600 Speaker 1: the road, which statistically, yeah, the odds are definitely in 365 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: your favor that that will happen, but that doesn't discount 366 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 1: the immediate grief that you're experiencing, right, And I mean, 367 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: researching for this episode was educational for for me definitely, 368 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,840 Speaker 1: because I mean, how many of us really know what 369 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,080 Speaker 1: to say or how to act or how to treat this, 370 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,520 Speaker 1: And so I think it's so important that we show 371 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 1: through all of these stead that we cited that this 372 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,120 Speaker 1: this is a huge ordeal that families and women go through, 373 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,479 Speaker 1: and it is isolating. It is isolating because you have 374 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,400 Speaker 1: kind of a general attitude in the culture of like myth, 375 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: you'll you'll be fine, You'll you'll totally be fine. You're 376 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,560 Speaker 1: not you know, you're healthy, it's fine, whereas a lot 377 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: of these women feel, you know, no, it's not fine. 378 00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:24,479 Speaker 1: I lost someone important to me. Yeah, So, UM, I know, 379 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: like you said at the beginning of the podcast, Caroline, 380 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: this was a sensitive topic to talk about, and I 381 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 1: can imagine that for some people listening it might have 382 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: been a difficult one, an emotional one to listen to. 383 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: But we just want to invite you to share with us. Um. 384 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,879 Speaker 1: You can email us mom Stuff at Discovery dot com. 385 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 1: You can tweet us at mom Stuff podcast, or share 386 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 1: with the whole community of stuff mom Never told you 387 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: listeners and viewers over on Facebook as well. UM, and 388 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,120 Speaker 1: we have a couple of messages to share with you. 389 00:23:55,200 --> 00:24:02,399 Speaker 1: In fact right now, So we've got a couple of 390 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,760 Speaker 1: letters here from listeners about our episode on cursing, swearing, 391 00:24:07,920 --> 00:24:11,360 Speaker 1: F bombs, and women. And this one comes from Jill 392 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: who writes, Hi, guys, I was so excited when I 393 00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: saw you did a podcast on swearing, because it's honestly 394 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: one of my favorite things to do. I know that 395 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: sounds lame, but I feel such a release of stress 396 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: whenever I throw f bombs around. It just feels so free, 397 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,640 Speaker 1: and it's one of the best things about being an adult, 398 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:31,360 Speaker 1: not having to limit myself to vocabulary someone else's deemed fit. 399 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 1: With that said, I always make sure I'm not in 400 00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 1: public when I do it in case it upsets someone. 401 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: It really shouldn't. They are just words. She writes in 402 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,440 Speaker 1: all caps. Thanks for the enlightening podcast. I eff ing 403 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: love it. Um Well, I have a message here from 404 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: Crystal Um. She says, being a professional, or as professionals, 405 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: one can be in a line of work where you 406 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 1: sometimes feel the need to scream out loud. Insurance claims, 407 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: I do feel that urged to curse out loud in 408 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: the workplace every so often, sometimes more than once a day. 409 00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,680 Speaker 1: But I digress. I've heard people say that cursing as 410 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: a lady makes you seem less educated. I e. She 411 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,360 Speaker 1: couldn't find a better word in her vocabulary to express 412 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 1: that point. I hold a bachelor's degree and would consider 413 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,120 Speaker 1: myself highly educated, but sometimes my old standby is such 414 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: as fiddle d D or goodness simply won't cut it. 415 00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,119 Speaker 1: I find myself letting an F bomb slip out at times, 416 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: and although I may not be the most pleased with it, later, 417 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,720 Speaker 1: it just feels better. Thank you for offering an escape 418 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: from my day to day stresses. You're welcome, Crystal, and 419 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:38,159 Speaker 1: I hope that us relieving you from some of your 420 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: stress as means you dropped a couple of fewer f 421 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:43,439 Speaker 1: bond at the office. So thank you for writing in, 422 00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: and thanks to everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff 423 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:48,719 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is where you can email us, 424 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 1: and you can also find all of our social media links, 425 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: every single podcast, blog post, and video. It's stuff Mom 426 00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:02,199 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for more on this and 427 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:04,800 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot 428 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: com