1
00:00:15,476 --> 00:00:15,916
Speaker 1: Pushkin.

2
00:00:22,996 --> 00:00:25,356
Speaker 2: If you follow the research on the science of happiness,

3
00:00:25,596 --> 00:00:28,476
Speaker 2: you've probably heard a lot about the connection between screen

4
00:00:28,556 --> 00:00:31,156
Speaker 2: time and well being. It's a problem that I think

5
00:00:31,156 --> 00:00:33,396
Speaker 2: about a lot, and a topic that we talk about

6
00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:36,796
Speaker 2: on the show a lot. But lately I found myself wondering,

7
00:00:37,276 --> 00:00:39,196
Speaker 2: what if we're missing the bigger picture.

8
00:00:39,196 --> 00:00:43,116
Speaker 3: We hear the mental health epidemic, growing rates of depression

9
00:00:43,196 --> 00:00:46,436
Speaker 3: and anxiety, has to do with the content that we

10
00:00:46,516 --> 00:00:47,156
Speaker 3: get right.

11
00:00:47,596 --> 00:00:50,996
Speaker 2: This is journalist Manush Zamarodi. Some of you may also

12
00:00:51,076 --> 00:00:54,196
Speaker 2: know Manush as the host of NPR's Ted Radio Hour.

13
00:00:54,596 --> 00:00:59,596
Speaker 3: This idea that we are taking in outrage, headlines, violence,

14
00:01:00,156 --> 00:01:04,116
Speaker 3: also comparing ourselves to other people, that it is purely

15
00:01:04,396 --> 00:01:07,196
Speaker 3: sort of a psychological thing, that it's something going on

16
00:01:07,276 --> 00:01:07,996
Speaker 3: in our heads.

17
00:01:08,236 --> 00:01:10,316
Speaker 2: Manush says that give and all the focus on how

18
00:01:10,356 --> 00:01:14,196
Speaker 2: technology affects our minds, it's easy to overlook another important

19
00:01:14,236 --> 00:01:14,996
Speaker 2: part of the story.

20
00:01:15,236 --> 00:01:18,436
Speaker 3: What we're not taking into account is what we actually

21
00:01:18,476 --> 00:01:21,716
Speaker 3: do with our bodies when we are spending all that

22
00:01:21,836 --> 00:01:25,836
Speaker 3: time taking in that content. We are sitting and looking

23
00:01:25,996 --> 00:01:31,196
Speaker 3: at a screen for long stretches of time, and we

24
00:01:31,316 --> 00:01:36,236
Speaker 3: now know that the average American adult spends twelve and

25
00:01:36,316 --> 00:01:41,156
Speaker 3: a half hours consuming media a day, and I mean

26
00:01:41,236 --> 00:01:43,436
Speaker 3: that's a lot of hours, Like it's a lot of ours.

27
00:01:43,436 --> 00:01:47,116
Speaker 3: That's incredible hours. Yeah, right, And I feel like for me,

28
00:01:47,436 --> 00:01:49,436
Speaker 3: like there was one day where I got into a

29
00:01:49,476 --> 00:01:51,196
Speaker 3: cab and there was a screen in front of me

30
00:01:51,276 --> 00:01:53,396
Speaker 3: on the back of the seat. I got out and

31
00:01:53,436 --> 00:01:55,436
Speaker 3: I went into an elevator and there was a screen

32
00:01:55,636 --> 00:01:57,996
Speaker 3: in the elevator. I got out of the elevator and

33
00:01:58,076 --> 00:02:00,756
Speaker 3: checked my phone and then check into the building on

34
00:02:00,796 --> 00:02:03,556
Speaker 3: another screen. And it just made me think, like my

35
00:02:03,796 --> 00:02:09,756
Speaker 3: entire life is now mediated by screens. I don't feel well, hurt,

36
00:02:09,916 --> 00:02:12,796
Speaker 3: I have a headache, I'm on my butt a lot

37
00:02:12,836 --> 00:02:15,316
Speaker 3: of the day. I do have a back ache. Is

38
00:02:15,356 --> 00:02:18,556
Speaker 3: that coincidence. I'm not really sure if that's coincidence. And

39
00:02:18,596 --> 00:02:21,676
Speaker 3: then after sitting all day, I go home and all

40
00:02:21,716 --> 00:02:23,596
Speaker 3: I really want to do is go lie on the

41
00:02:23,596 --> 00:02:27,076
Speaker 3: couch and look at my screen again, maybe two screens actually,

42
00:02:27,116 --> 00:02:29,476
Speaker 3: because maybe I'll watch a show while I'm looking at

43
00:02:29,516 --> 00:02:33,556
Speaker 3: my screen. And we've all heard like sitting is the

44
00:02:33,596 --> 00:02:36,716
Speaker 3: new smoking and all of those things, But this sort

45
00:02:36,716 --> 00:02:40,156
Speaker 3: of deep exhaustion that I think many of us are

46
00:02:40,236 --> 00:02:45,156
Speaker 3: feeling felt very like in my bones. You know, yes

47
00:02:45,316 --> 00:02:49,716
Speaker 3: I get exercise, but that didn't seem to be making

48
00:02:50,076 --> 00:02:53,116
Speaker 3: that much of a difference, And so that made me

49
00:02:53,196 --> 00:02:57,476
Speaker 3: want to understand how are my tech habits affecting my

50
00:02:57,676 --> 00:03:00,436
Speaker 3: physical health? And of course that has a lot to

51
00:03:00,436 --> 00:03:03,156
Speaker 3: do with your brain health as well, But I don't

52
00:03:03,196 --> 00:03:06,436
Speaker 3: think we think about it as a full system often enough.

53
00:03:06,796 --> 00:03:09,796
Speaker 3: These tools are very powerful and they really are having

54
00:03:09,836 --> 00:03:10,556
Speaker 3: a huge effect.

55
00:03:11,076 --> 00:03:13,876
Speaker 2: So in today's episode another in our series on spring

56
00:03:13,956 --> 00:03:16,676
Speaker 2: Cleaning your well Being, Minush will share some of my

57
00:03:16,796 --> 00:03:20,556
Speaker 2: favorite takeaways from her new book, Body Electric, The hidden

58
00:03:20,596 --> 00:03:23,596
Speaker 2: health costs of the Digital Age, and new science to

59
00:03:23,676 --> 00:03:24,756
Speaker 2: Reclaim your well Being.

60
00:03:24,956 --> 00:03:26,876
Speaker 3: I am not anti tech, by the way. I don't

61
00:03:26,876 --> 00:03:29,916
Speaker 3: know if that's come across. I love this stuff, but

62
00:03:30,756 --> 00:03:33,236
Speaker 3: too much of a good thing, right like that is

63
00:03:33,276 --> 00:03:36,356
Speaker 3: the problem. My biology was not built to be doing

64
00:03:36,396 --> 00:03:39,316
Speaker 3: this NonStop, as much as the tech is happy to comply.

65
00:03:39,996 --> 00:03:42,156
Speaker 2: Get ready to hear more about how you can enjoy

66
00:03:42,196 --> 00:03:45,396
Speaker 2: your tech without all the crappy side effects. Right after

67
00:03:45,436 --> 00:04:09,196
Speaker 2: these messages from the Happiness Lab sponsors. These days, I

68
00:04:09,196 --> 00:04:12,236
Speaker 2: think a lot about how screens affect mental health. But

69
00:04:12,356 --> 00:04:16,076
Speaker 2: podcaster and tech journalists Manuche Sammarodi argues that we may

70
00:04:16,076 --> 00:04:18,836
Speaker 2: be missing an even bigger piece of the puzzle, how

71
00:04:18,876 --> 00:04:20,716
Speaker 2: screens affect our physical health.

72
00:04:22,316 --> 00:04:25,556
Speaker 3: It's estimated five hundred million people around the globe are

73
00:04:25,556 --> 00:04:28,716
Speaker 3: going to have chronic illness by the end of this decade.

74
00:04:28,756 --> 00:04:32,036
Speaker 3: It's going to cost governments twenty seven billion dollars a year.

75
00:04:32,116 --> 00:04:34,956
Speaker 3: We know we have higher rates of obesity, the rates

76
00:04:34,996 --> 00:04:37,636
Speaker 3: of diabetes and young people have doubled over the past

77
00:04:37,636 --> 00:04:40,636
Speaker 3: twenty years. We hear about colon cancer on the rise

78
00:04:40,676 --> 00:04:43,756
Speaker 3: and young people under fifty as well. We also hear

79
00:04:43,796 --> 00:04:47,316
Speaker 3: about people just feeling like they can't concentrate anymore, that

80
00:04:47,436 --> 00:04:51,596
Speaker 3: they are so tired and in this weird sort of

81
00:04:51,756 --> 00:04:53,876
Speaker 3: like sure, we can call it burnout, but I think

82
00:04:53,956 --> 00:04:57,436
Speaker 3: it's just a sense of all we want to do

83
00:04:57,476 --> 00:04:59,156
Speaker 3: is crawl under our desks and go to sleep a

84
00:04:59,196 --> 00:05:01,276
Speaker 3: lot of the time. And so I wanted, I want

85
00:05:01,316 --> 00:05:03,236
Speaker 3: to be like, why don't we feel so crappy, like

86
00:05:03,316 --> 00:05:06,316
Speaker 3: what is going on? And honestly, you know, for many

87
00:05:06,356 --> 00:05:09,316
Speaker 3: of us, like the pandemic, that was the moment for me,

88
00:05:09,676 --> 00:05:12,996
Speaker 3: and I think it was because everything went to a screen.

89
00:05:13,276 --> 00:05:16,636
Speaker 3: It wasn't just work on the screen, it wasn't just

90
00:05:16,716 --> 00:05:19,396
Speaker 3: our social lives. It was just everything, And all I

91
00:05:19,476 --> 00:05:22,916
Speaker 3: knew was that I was very lucky. I was in

92
00:05:22,956 --> 00:05:26,116
Speaker 3: a safe place, I had plenty of food, I was

93
00:05:26,196 --> 00:05:29,676
Speaker 3: with my family, and yet I felt like total crap

94
00:05:29,796 --> 00:05:31,556
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, and I just could

95
00:05:31,596 --> 00:05:35,076
Speaker 3: not understand what was going on in my body. And

96
00:05:35,116 --> 00:05:38,316
Speaker 3: then we saw it too, rising rates of anxiety, sleeplessness.

97
00:05:38,556 --> 00:05:40,276
Speaker 3: You know. Sure a lot of that had to do

98
00:05:40,316 --> 00:05:42,636
Speaker 3: with the headlines, but a lot of it was people

99
00:05:42,716 --> 00:05:45,116
Speaker 3: who felt like, how is this possible that I feel

100
00:05:45,156 --> 00:05:47,876
Speaker 3: so bad when all I'm doing is sitting in front

101
00:05:47,876 --> 00:05:48,396
Speaker 3: of a screen.

102
00:05:48,596 --> 00:05:50,356
Speaker 2: And so talk a little bit about why our bodies

103
00:05:50,396 --> 00:05:52,596
Speaker 2: are such a bad fit with this environment you've talked

104
00:05:52,596 --> 00:05:54,956
Speaker 2: about where we're sitting all day watching screens, like in

105
00:05:54,956 --> 00:05:56,956
Speaker 2: our office, we come home, we PLoP on the couch.

106
00:05:57,396 --> 00:05:59,996
Speaker 2: What's so different about what we were built for? Well,

107
00:06:00,076 --> 00:06:02,396
Speaker 2: it was interesting to go back into, like the literature.

108
00:06:02,436 --> 00:06:05,276
Speaker 2: So the book is named after the Walt Whitman poem

109
00:06:05,436 --> 00:06:08,796
Speaker 2: Body Electric, where he speaks of the body electric and

110
00:06:08,836 --> 00:06:13,356
Speaker 2: this idea that there's this vivaciousness and pleasure in the

111
00:06:13,436 --> 00:06:16,116
Speaker 2: human body when it is functioning.

112
00:06:15,916 --> 00:06:19,196
Speaker 3: As it should. And then he and lots of other

113
00:06:19,236 --> 00:06:22,676
Speaker 3: writers at the time start to observe the clerk, you know,

114
00:06:23,276 --> 00:06:25,716
Speaker 3: the guy the scribe sitting at the desk, and this

115
00:06:25,876 --> 00:06:28,836
Speaker 3: idea that he walks home and he is of chalky

116
00:06:28,916 --> 00:06:33,236
Speaker 3: face and slight stature. And so we saw very early

117
00:06:33,316 --> 00:06:37,076
Speaker 3: on as labor went from being a very physical thing

118
00:06:37,156 --> 00:06:40,076
Speaker 3: to be more of a mental thing, that it started

119
00:06:40,076 --> 00:06:43,636
Speaker 3: to affect people's vitality, that it started to affect their

120
00:06:44,036 --> 00:06:47,596
Speaker 3: basic physical health. That's what I wanted to understand. I

121
00:06:47,636 --> 00:06:50,196
Speaker 3: was like, first of all, why is sitting so bad?

122
00:06:50,236 --> 00:06:52,396
Speaker 3: Because I figured like, oh, well, maybe it's because you're

123
00:06:52,436 --> 00:06:55,316
Speaker 3: not burning calories, you know, I wasn't really sure. And

124
00:06:55,476 --> 00:06:58,756
Speaker 3: what I ended up learning from a physiologist that I

125
00:06:58,796 --> 00:07:01,556
Speaker 3: reached out to, Keith Diaz, was that when we sit,

126
00:07:01,796 --> 00:07:04,756
Speaker 3: we actually this is an image that's going to stay

127
00:07:04,796 --> 00:07:08,356
Speaker 3: with you. LORI starry in advance when we basically kink

128
00:07:08,596 --> 00:07:11,116
Speaker 3: our bodies at our knees and at our waists like

129
00:07:11,156 --> 00:07:13,756
Speaker 3: a garden hose. Right, So imagine a garden hose, you

130
00:07:13,756 --> 00:07:15,876
Speaker 3: know that kink that there is, and then things get

131
00:07:15,956 --> 00:07:19,796
Speaker 3: backed up there. So that's what's happening in our bodies.

132
00:07:19,876 --> 00:07:23,036
Speaker 3: Blood and fluid are getting backed up, and we need

133
00:07:23,076 --> 00:07:28,196
Speaker 3: that constant stimulation of our leg muscles for numerous reasons.

134
00:07:28,236 --> 00:07:31,716
Speaker 3: One is that without that, we don't flush out the

135
00:07:31,756 --> 00:07:35,356
Speaker 3: fats and sugars that can build up in those leg muscles.

136
00:07:35,396 --> 00:07:38,356
Speaker 3: And so that's where you start to see rising rates

137
00:07:38,476 --> 00:07:42,396
Speaker 3: of diabetes, you start to see higher blood pressure. And

138
00:07:42,436 --> 00:07:47,036
Speaker 3: then I started to find out about another relatively new topic,

139
00:07:47,116 --> 00:07:51,036
Speaker 3: which is something called interroception. This is what one of

140
00:07:51,076 --> 00:07:55,196
Speaker 3: the neuroscientists I spoke to, he's also a psychiatrist, He'd Calso,

141
00:07:55,196 --> 00:07:58,276
Speaker 3: who's now at UCLA. He described it to me as

142
00:07:58,916 --> 00:08:02,836
Speaker 3: like your inner selfie essentially, like your body is sending

143
00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:05,636
Speaker 3: you signals all day long. Some of them you don't

144
00:08:05,676 --> 00:08:08,636
Speaker 3: even recognize, right, Like it might tell you to take

145
00:08:08,676 --> 00:08:12,196
Speaker 3: off your ja because you're sweating, or you're hungry, go

146
00:08:12,276 --> 00:08:15,196
Speaker 3: get a snack. And what happens when we don't listen

147
00:08:15,236 --> 00:08:17,956
Speaker 3: to those signals, right You get cranky because you forgot

148
00:08:18,036 --> 00:08:21,156
Speaker 3: to eat or all of these things. And so my

149
00:08:21,316 --> 00:08:25,516
Speaker 3: theory was being on screens all day. I would get

150
00:08:25,596 --> 00:08:26,916
Speaker 3: up and I'd be like, oh my god, I haven't

151
00:08:26,916 --> 00:08:29,276
Speaker 3: gone to the bathroom in five hours? What is wrong

152
00:08:29,316 --> 00:08:31,716
Speaker 3: with me? Why is my foot asleep? And I didn't

153
00:08:31,756 --> 00:08:36,556
Speaker 3: even notice the sense of being almost disconnected from our

154
00:08:36,596 --> 00:08:40,476
Speaker 3: physical selves because there's so much going on in our screens,

155
00:08:40,596 --> 00:08:45,396
Speaker 3: Like my senses are completely overwhelmed and taken by everything

156
00:08:45,396 --> 00:08:47,516
Speaker 3: that's coming in off the screen, no wonder, I can't

157
00:08:47,516 --> 00:08:50,036
Speaker 3: pay attention to the fact that, like, oh my god,

158
00:08:50,076 --> 00:08:52,716
Speaker 3: my back is killing me, or my arm should not

159
00:08:52,756 --> 00:08:55,236
Speaker 3: be in that position for that long. So this sort

160
00:08:55,276 --> 00:08:59,356
Speaker 3: of disconnect between what our bodies need in order to

161
00:08:59,516 --> 00:09:04,436
Speaker 3: function is completely mismatched with technology, which it can go

162
00:09:04,556 --> 00:09:08,156
Speaker 3: all day long, plug it back in, upgrade the operating system.

163
00:09:08,356 --> 00:09:10,876
Speaker 3: It's ready to go. Oh And as much as I

164
00:09:10,956 --> 00:09:14,996
Speaker 3: wish sometimes that I was as efficient as my technology,

165
00:09:15,476 --> 00:09:18,796
Speaker 3: I'm not. I'm just a human and I need breaks,

166
00:09:19,396 --> 00:09:22,036
Speaker 3: and breaks need to be part of the strategy, not

167
00:09:22,116 --> 00:09:22,676
Speaker 3: a reward.

168
00:09:23,236 --> 00:09:25,556
Speaker 2: And so this problem that you've talked about with interception

169
00:09:25,956 --> 00:09:28,196
Speaker 2: makes it hard for us to realize what we need

170
00:09:28,236 --> 00:09:30,716
Speaker 2: to do when we need this moment of rest, what's

171
00:09:30,716 --> 00:09:32,556
Speaker 2: the kind of fatigue we're experiencing now, And how do

172
00:09:32,596 --> 00:09:34,356
Speaker 2: we get it wrong when we try to solve for it.

173
00:09:35,076 --> 00:09:38,196
Speaker 3: So I don't know about you, but for a long

174
00:09:38,276 --> 00:09:40,276
Speaker 3: time I just thought, well, I just got to get

175
00:09:40,276 --> 00:09:43,116
Speaker 3: it done, Like I just I mean, I'll just keep

176
00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:46,396
Speaker 3: working and you know, I'll put in four hours and

177
00:09:46,796 --> 00:09:51,956
Speaker 3: get that report finished. And that, I think leads us

178
00:09:51,996 --> 00:09:55,796
Speaker 3: to that sense of like I'm working really hard, but

179
00:09:56,076 --> 00:09:58,716
Speaker 3: why do I feel like I'm actually not getting anything done,

180
00:09:58,996 --> 00:10:01,636
Speaker 3: or that sense like I nailed it yesterday and then

181
00:10:01,636 --> 00:10:03,596
Speaker 3: you come back and you read something that you did

182
00:10:03,676 --> 00:10:05,516
Speaker 3: and you're like, this is a piece of crap. Actually

183
00:10:05,596 --> 00:10:09,676
Speaker 3: this is really bad. So this idea that productivity comes

184
00:10:09,756 --> 00:10:12,676
Speaker 3: with grinding through and just keeping at it and working

185
00:10:12,716 --> 00:10:16,116
Speaker 3: hard really speaks to me personally as a type a

186
00:10:16,156 --> 00:10:18,596
Speaker 3: good girl who wants to get the job done so

187
00:10:18,596 --> 00:10:20,836
Speaker 3: she can move on to the next thing on the list.

188
00:10:21,356 --> 00:10:24,636
Speaker 3: It was a really hard personal I'm still learning this

189
00:10:24,756 --> 00:10:30,076
Speaker 3: lesson Laurie that actually my best work and my happiness

190
00:10:30,156 --> 00:10:35,116
Speaker 3: to be honest and my sense of enjoying life on

191
00:10:35,156 --> 00:10:38,836
Speaker 3: a daily basis means that I need to build in

192
00:10:39,036 --> 00:10:43,836
Speaker 3: breaks and this idea of really sensory resets, and I've

193
00:10:43,916 --> 00:10:47,276
Speaker 3: just had to learn the hard way that often what

194
00:10:47,356 --> 00:10:51,556
Speaker 3: I need is a boring walk. It's just that simple,

195
00:10:51,916 --> 00:10:54,116
Speaker 3: and I always feel better and I always come up

196
00:10:54,116 --> 00:10:57,076
Speaker 3: with my best ideas and my back stops hurting and

197
00:10:57,116 --> 00:10:59,516
Speaker 3: I do my best work until the next time that

198
00:10:59,556 --> 00:11:03,356
Speaker 3: it's time to take a break. And that is painful

199
00:11:03,556 --> 00:11:06,036
Speaker 3: for me, and it's a lesson I teach myself every

200
00:11:06,076 --> 00:11:09,476
Speaker 3: single day. I just have to trust the process. I

201
00:11:09,556 --> 00:11:13,636
Speaker 3: know this works. I know from a scientific perspective it works.

202
00:11:13,636 --> 00:11:16,276
Speaker 3: I know from a personal perspective it works. It seems

203
00:11:16,276 --> 00:11:18,236
Speaker 3: silly when you say it out loud, you know, oh,

204
00:11:18,356 --> 00:11:21,636
Speaker 3: you gotta think breaks like, well, yeah, duh. But that's

205
00:11:21,636 --> 00:11:24,876
Speaker 3: not the world we've built around us, And so I

206
00:11:24,876 --> 00:11:26,756
Speaker 3: think of it as almost having to make sure we

207
00:11:26,876 --> 00:11:29,716
Speaker 3: get into that negative space that we have crowded out.

208
00:11:31,596 --> 00:11:35,116
Speaker 3: The screens around us are obviously not going anywhere anytime soon,

209
00:11:35,716 --> 00:11:38,116
Speaker 3: which is why Manush wants to understand how we can

210
00:11:38,156 --> 00:11:39,596
Speaker 3: live with them in a way that.

211
00:11:39,556 --> 00:11:43,796
Speaker 2: Doesn't make us feel absolutely terrible. Of course, sensory resets

212
00:11:43,836 --> 00:11:47,236
Speaker 2: can help, but in a culture that rewards constant productivity,

213
00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:49,676
Speaker 2: taking breaks can seem counterintuitive.

214
00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:52,516
Speaker 3: So how do we actually build.

215
00:11:52,196 --> 00:11:54,236
Speaker 2: In movement when we're expected to sit in front of

216
00:11:54,276 --> 00:11:57,636
Speaker 2: a laptop all day? This was the question Manush was

217
00:11:57,676 --> 00:12:00,556
Speaker 2: wrestling with when she came across the research of doctor

218
00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:03,916
Speaker 2: Keith Diaz, a physiologist at Columbia University.

219
00:12:03,956 --> 00:12:04,636
Speaker 1: Medical Center.

220
00:12:04,956 --> 00:12:08,676
Speaker 3: Keith is obsessed with trying to understand what is the

221
00:12:08,756 --> 00:12:11,836
Speaker 3: least amount of movement that the body needs in order

222
00:12:11,916 --> 00:12:15,356
Speaker 3: to function well, in order to clear out the glucose

223
00:12:15,396 --> 00:12:18,036
Speaker 3: and the fats and keep your body and your mind

224
00:12:18,156 --> 00:12:22,716
Speaker 3: sort of functioning properly. But he's also like a realist.

225
00:12:22,756 --> 00:12:24,516
Speaker 3: He knows that a lot of us, for our jobs,

226
00:12:24,596 --> 00:12:26,116
Speaker 3: we have to spend a lot of time seated and

227
00:12:26,156 --> 00:12:28,036
Speaker 3: looking at a screen. So he made it his mission

228
00:12:28,076 --> 00:12:30,476
Speaker 3: to try and figure out what was the minimum amount

229
00:12:30,516 --> 00:12:33,836
Speaker 3: of movement we could do that our lives wouldn't kill

230
00:12:33,916 --> 00:12:35,636
Speaker 3: us at the end of the day, wouldn't lead to

231
00:12:36,156 --> 00:12:40,476
Speaker 3: diabetes and blood pressure and cardiovascular issues all those things.

232
00:12:40,676 --> 00:12:43,036
Speaker 3: And what he found in his lab was really interesting.

233
00:12:43,156 --> 00:12:47,636
Speaker 3: It was five minutes of very gentle movement every half

234
00:12:47,676 --> 00:12:51,796
Speaker 3: hour of sitting, largely offset the harms of those long

235
00:12:51,836 --> 00:12:53,436
Speaker 3: stretches of sedentary time.

236
00:12:53,636 --> 00:12:55,916
Speaker 2: That's kind of a surprising result because it's actually not

237
00:12:56,076 --> 00:12:58,796
Speaker 2: that much time. But it's also surprising in a different way,

238
00:12:58,796 --> 00:13:01,076
Speaker 2: which is probably more frequent than I think a lot

239
00:13:01,076 --> 00:13:03,436
Speaker 2: of us think. I always had the sense of like, oh,

240
00:13:03,476 --> 00:13:05,476
Speaker 2: I need to take this super long walk one time

241
00:13:05,476 --> 00:13:07,756
Speaker 2: in the day, and then I'll spend ten hours doing

242
00:13:07,796 --> 00:13:10,676
Speaker 2: podcasting on my chair. That will be okay, Well, let's

243
00:13:10,716 --> 00:13:11,276
Speaker 2: talk about that.

244
00:13:11,476 --> 00:13:14,356
Speaker 3: So essentially what he said is if you work out

245
00:13:14,596 --> 00:13:16,796
Speaker 3: or you take that one long walk, that's basically like

246
00:13:16,876 --> 00:13:19,796
Speaker 3: four percent of your day, and that means that there

247
00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:24,076
Speaker 3: are still very long periods where you are not moving,

248
00:13:24,236 --> 00:13:27,876
Speaker 3: you are sedentary, you are looking at a screen. If

249
00:13:27,876 --> 00:13:30,196
Speaker 3: you then go on to sit for the rest of

250
00:13:30,236 --> 00:13:33,156
Speaker 3: the day, it doesn't matter. They have found in study

251
00:13:33,276 --> 00:13:36,516
Speaker 3: after study after study that even if you work out

252
00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:39,516
Speaker 3: in the morning or you do a workout late at night,

253
00:13:39,596 --> 00:13:42,476
Speaker 3: if you don't break up those long periods of sedentary

254
00:13:42,596 --> 00:13:45,676
Speaker 3: screen time, then you are putting yourself at risk for

255
00:13:46,276 --> 00:13:49,196
Speaker 3: serious health harms. And then I was like, oh, but

256
00:13:49,236 --> 00:13:55,356
Speaker 3: what about standing desks? Keith, He's like, yeah, sorry, Actually,

257
00:13:55,516 --> 00:13:58,676
Speaker 3: studies are now showing that, like, if you stand for

258
00:13:58,796 --> 00:14:00,796
Speaker 3: two hours a day, if that's a way to get

259
00:14:00,836 --> 00:14:05,596
Speaker 3: yourself moving, great, but standing alone can actually be shown

260
00:14:05,676 --> 00:14:10,716
Speaker 3: to have problems in terms of cardiovascular health and ferroicos veins,

261
00:14:11,156 --> 00:14:13,876
Speaker 3: so it's actually might be worse. I was like, oh, great,

262
00:14:14,036 --> 00:14:16,796
Speaker 3: I know it's so annoying, Okay, but here's the good news.

263
00:14:16,916 --> 00:14:20,596
Speaker 3: When he was talking about gentle movement. I'm talking gentle movement.

264
00:14:20,716 --> 00:14:23,676
Speaker 3: So I went to his lab and joined the study

265
00:14:23,756 --> 00:14:25,876
Speaker 3: just to see what it was like. So I had

266
00:14:25,916 --> 00:14:27,836
Speaker 3: one day where it was like kind of a typical

267
00:14:27,916 --> 00:14:29,836
Speaker 3: day where I sat at my laptop and I worked

268
00:14:29,836 --> 00:14:33,236
Speaker 3: for eight hours straight and I had a lunch break

269
00:14:33,316 --> 00:14:36,236
Speaker 3: at my desk. Sadly it used to be true. And

270
00:14:36,396 --> 00:14:38,276
Speaker 3: I had some bathroom breaks and that was pretty much

271
00:14:38,276 --> 00:14:41,076
Speaker 3: the end of it. And I literally fell asleep twice

272
00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:44,356
Speaker 3: during the day and crawled onto the subway and went

273
00:14:44,396 --> 00:14:47,036
Speaker 3: home and went to bedterly, and I was hooked up

274
00:14:47,036 --> 00:14:50,916
Speaker 3: to like glucose monitors and oxygenation monitors and all of

275
00:14:50,956 --> 00:14:54,156
Speaker 3: these things. And then another day someone would tap me

276
00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:56,996
Speaker 3: on the shoulder every half hour and I would go

277
00:14:57,036 --> 00:15:01,036
Speaker 3: and walk on the treadmill two miles per hour, Laurie,

278
00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:04,796
Speaker 3: so like a stroll. Like not I'm not talking about

279
00:15:04,836 --> 00:15:09,116
Speaker 3: breathless here, I'm talking about like walking walking. Yes, yeah,

280
00:15:09,236 --> 00:15:11,596
Speaker 3: I could have just marched in place. And at first

281
00:15:11,636 --> 00:15:14,716
Speaker 3: I was annoyed. I was like, well, this is very disruptive,

282
00:15:14,916 --> 00:15:17,756
Speaker 3: but I did feel better, stayed awake all day. I

283
00:15:17,796 --> 00:15:19,916
Speaker 3: didn't need the sweater that I had packed to deal

284
00:15:19,956 --> 00:15:23,596
Speaker 3: with the AC that was blasting, And actually I didn't

285
00:15:23,636 --> 00:15:27,396
Speaker 3: get as much work done, but the work I did,

286
00:15:27,476 --> 00:15:30,556
Speaker 3: the quality was so much better. I didn't need to

287
00:15:30,556 --> 00:15:32,596
Speaker 3: go back the next day and revise it. I didn't

288
00:15:32,716 --> 00:15:35,636
Speaker 3: need to remind myself what I had achieved. It was

289
00:15:35,756 --> 00:15:38,876
Speaker 3: just like on point, you know what I'm saying. Oh,

290
00:15:38,876 --> 00:15:42,116
Speaker 3: and I should mention my blood sugar dropped by forty

291
00:15:42,236 --> 00:15:45,036
Speaker 3: percent compared to the other day. Wow, my blood pressure

292
00:15:45,316 --> 00:15:48,836
Speaker 3: was down five percent. My fatigue levels and my moon

293
00:15:48,916 --> 00:15:52,156
Speaker 3: levels and concentration levels they fell off the charts on

294
00:15:52,196 --> 00:15:54,876
Speaker 3: the day I sat all day. They stayed incredibly level

295
00:15:55,196 --> 00:15:57,556
Speaker 3: throughout the day on the day that I took the breaks.

296
00:15:57,756 --> 00:16:00,116
Speaker 3: So I had the data, I saw it, and I

297
00:16:00,236 --> 00:16:03,796
Speaker 3: felt it. So when that happened, I was like, dude,

298
00:16:03,796 --> 00:16:07,276
Speaker 3: I am bought in. This clearly works, but are people

299
00:16:07,396 --> 00:16:10,276
Speaker 3: actually going to do it? And Keith was like, yeah,

300
00:16:10,316 --> 00:16:12,836
Speaker 3: I know. That's the problem with these lab studies is

301
00:16:12,876 --> 00:16:15,556
Speaker 3: like we can figure out the best, but if no

302
00:16:15,596 --> 00:16:18,716
Speaker 3: one can do it, then like what does it even matter? Right?

303
00:16:19,156 --> 00:16:21,516
Speaker 3: So I was like, well, let's find out maybe.

304
00:16:21,276 --> 00:16:25,556
Speaker 2: People can do this, But what happens when you try

305
00:16:25,596 --> 00:16:27,996
Speaker 2: to take a break every thirty minutes in the real world,

306
00:16:28,316 --> 00:16:31,676
Speaker 2: filled with real bosses and offices and deadlines, is the

307
00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:35,556
Speaker 2: kind of routine Manush is describing actually sustainable in real life.

308
00:16:36,316 --> 00:16:39,436
Speaker 2: We'll tackle that question when the Happiness Lab returns. From

309
00:16:39,436 --> 00:17:02,436
Speaker 2: this quick break, podcaster and journalist Manuch Sammaroni argues that

310
00:17:02,436 --> 00:17:05,436
Speaker 2: we need to spring clean our body's relationship with technology.

311
00:17:06,116 --> 00:17:08,996
Speaker 2: Before the break, we were talking about Minusha's lab, based

312
00:17:09,596 --> 00:17:13,116
Speaker 2: with physiologists Keith Diaz, which found that we can counteract

313
00:17:13,156 --> 00:17:15,836
Speaker 2: the physical effects of sitting in front of screens by

314
00:17:15,836 --> 00:17:19,276
Speaker 2: taking a five minute movement break every half hour. But

315
00:17:19,316 --> 00:17:22,436
Speaker 2: does that intervention work for real people working real jobs

316
00:17:22,476 --> 00:17:26,036
Speaker 2: in the real world. Fortunately, Minusha's role as a radio

317
00:17:26,076 --> 00:17:29,836
Speaker 2: host gave her access to a huge group of willing participants.

318
00:17:30,036 --> 00:17:33,716
Speaker 3: So we put out the call to public radio listeners

319
00:17:34,316 --> 00:17:37,916
Speaker 3: and he did it properly, this time, a proper clinical

320
00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:41,836
Speaker 3: trial with twenty three thousand people enrolled. They had to

321
00:17:41,836 --> 00:17:43,756
Speaker 3: shut it off after that it was too many people

322
00:17:43,836 --> 00:17:46,076
Speaker 3: be We're like, please help me, I need to feel better.

323
00:17:46,596 --> 00:17:48,716
Speaker 3: We had three cohorts, so you could try to go

324
00:17:48,796 --> 00:17:52,236
Speaker 3: for the gold standard, which was five minutes every half hour.

325
00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:55,356
Speaker 3: You could go for five minutes every hour or you

326
00:17:55,396 --> 00:17:59,556
Speaker 3: could even do five minutes every two hours. And we

327
00:17:59,556 --> 00:18:03,116
Speaker 3: weren't able to obviously monitor everybody's glucose levels or their

328
00:18:03,196 --> 00:18:07,236
Speaker 3: blood pressure, et cetera. And although we couldn't mimic the

329
00:18:07,316 --> 00:18:12,196
Speaker 3: exact conditions as in the lab, we had surveys that

330
00:18:12,236 --> 00:18:15,596
Speaker 3: went out constantly all through the day. But it was amazing.

331
00:18:15,636 --> 00:18:19,996
Speaker 3: We had uber drivers, sign up teachers, we had nurses, lawyers,

332
00:18:20,556 --> 00:18:23,556
Speaker 3: you name it across the board, you know, because screens

333
00:18:23,676 --> 00:18:28,596
Speaker 3: don't discriminate. So physically moving throughout the day made people

334
00:18:28,996 --> 00:18:33,156
Speaker 3: on average between twenty one to twenty eight percent less tired,

335
00:18:33,316 --> 00:18:38,716
Speaker 3: fatigue levels dropped in terms of mood and happiness. Again

336
00:18:38,996 --> 00:18:43,356
Speaker 3: that stability. In terms of productivity, it actually didn't get worse.

337
00:18:43,596 --> 00:18:46,276
Speaker 3: It even went up a little bit. Four percent on

338
00:18:46,396 --> 00:18:49,716
Speaker 3: average went up, so, you know, maybe not huge, but

339
00:18:49,876 --> 00:18:52,916
Speaker 3: this sense of all those interruptions it didn't take.

340
00:18:53,036 --> 00:18:55,036
Speaker 2: I think that's what we're all worried about. We think, like,

341
00:18:55,116 --> 00:18:57,236
Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I'm gonna have like a whole less

342
00:18:57,276 --> 00:18:58,796
Speaker 2: episode done at the end of the week because I'm

343
00:18:58,796 --> 00:18:59,516
Speaker 2: taking these breaks.

344
00:18:59,516 --> 00:19:00,836
Speaker 1: But that's not what you were seeing.

345
00:19:00,956 --> 00:19:03,356
Speaker 3: No, exactly, the fear of you're like, well, if I'm

346
00:19:03,356 --> 00:19:05,276
Speaker 3: interrupted all the time, How am I going to get

347
00:19:05,276 --> 00:19:07,396
Speaker 3: any work done? And actually that wasn't the case. People

348
00:19:07,436 --> 00:19:09,316
Speaker 3: would say they'd come back from one of the these

349
00:19:09,356 --> 00:19:12,876
Speaker 3: breaks and they knew exactly what they needed to get done.

350
00:19:13,276 --> 00:19:16,076
Speaker 3: They were focused, they were more efficient, and I think

351
00:19:16,116 --> 00:19:18,476
Speaker 3: that's really interesting to me that you can spend less

352
00:19:18,476 --> 00:19:21,276
Speaker 3: time on your screen and simply be more efficient. And

353
00:19:21,516 --> 00:19:24,916
Speaker 3: they said things like just lifting my legs, I would

354
00:19:24,956 --> 00:19:28,836
Speaker 3: start to feel my mood improve. They would say things like,

355
00:19:29,076 --> 00:19:30,716
Speaker 3: you know, how did they get people to do it?

356
00:19:30,756 --> 00:19:32,556
Speaker 3: In their office? They'd be like, I'm in this weird

357
00:19:32,596 --> 00:19:34,796
Speaker 3: clinical trial. You want to try it with me? And

358
00:19:35,036 --> 00:19:38,676
Speaker 3: that sort of gave people permission to have a walking

359
00:19:38,756 --> 00:19:42,756
Speaker 3: meeting or be standing on a zoom call and shuffling

360
00:19:42,876 --> 00:19:45,236
Speaker 3: side to side while they talk to each other. You know,

361
00:19:45,316 --> 00:19:48,876
Speaker 3: it's for science, LORI right, or like one woman was like,

362
00:19:48,956 --> 00:19:51,276
Speaker 3: it was our busiest time of the year and I

363
00:19:51,396 --> 00:19:54,356
Speaker 3: was pulling like fifteen hour days. Was like the final

364
00:19:54,436 --> 00:19:58,116
Speaker 3: sales push. She had her best sales quarter ever, like

365
00:19:58,196 --> 00:20:00,716
Speaker 3: a proof was in the pudding. And then of course

366
00:20:00,756 --> 00:20:03,236
Speaker 3: a lot of young people who said I don't have

367
00:20:03,276 --> 00:20:06,236
Speaker 3: a choice, like there are some professors at college who

368
00:20:06,596 --> 00:20:08,996
Speaker 3: make sure we get breaks during our three hour electu

369
00:20:09,476 --> 00:20:12,876
Speaker 3: but there are others who don't. And they said, I

370
00:20:13,076 --> 00:20:16,796
Speaker 3: see the difference in how I learn during the ones

371
00:20:16,916 --> 00:20:20,676
Speaker 3: where I get to take breaks codify the knowledge that

372
00:20:20,716 --> 00:20:23,796
Speaker 3: I have taken in. And actually, you know, we stuff

373
00:20:23,836 --> 00:20:27,076
Speaker 3: our brains full of information. But these breaks also help

374
00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:30,116
Speaker 3: people think, like what did we talk about in that meeting?

375
00:20:30,476 --> 00:20:32,716
Speaker 3: What are the next steps I want to take? How

376
00:20:32,756 --> 00:20:35,076
Speaker 3: do I make the most of the information that I

377
00:20:35,156 --> 00:20:38,916
Speaker 3: took in? And that is is a full body experience, right.

378
00:20:39,076 --> 00:20:41,436
Speaker 3: I think this is so critical because I think this

379
00:20:41,556 --> 00:20:43,916
Speaker 3: is just another domain where our minds lie to us.

380
00:20:44,036 --> 00:20:47,036
Speaker 3: I'm picturing myself trying to do the experiment that you

381
00:20:47,076 --> 00:20:49,396
Speaker 3: were talking about and having a person come tap you

382
00:20:49,436 --> 00:20:50,956
Speaker 3: on your shoulder and be like, all right, it's time

383
00:20:50,996 --> 00:20:51,356
Speaker 3: to go now.

384
00:20:51,436 --> 00:20:53,036
Speaker 1: Or if I sit a little alarm on my phone of.

385
00:20:53,076 --> 00:20:55,356
Speaker 2: Like five minutes take a break, my sense is like

386
00:20:55,396 --> 00:20:57,716
Speaker 2: I'll be in flow doing some work for something, and

387
00:20:57,756 --> 00:20:59,516
Speaker 2: I'll be annoyed. I'll be like no, I want to

388
00:20:59,596 --> 00:21:02,516
Speaker 2: keep working and my brain just cannot compute. They're like, no, no,

389
00:21:02,636 --> 00:21:04,876
Speaker 2: take a break, walk around. You'll get back to it

390
00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:07,196
Speaker 2: faster and do it better than if you didn't take

391
00:21:07,236 --> 00:21:10,076
Speaker 2: the break, And so how do we convince to ourselves, like.

392
00:21:10,036 --> 00:21:12,636
Speaker 1: Our slave driving minds, that we need these little breaks.

393
00:21:13,516 --> 00:21:16,996
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that was really interesting. What people found was

394
00:21:17,196 --> 00:21:19,716
Speaker 3: they started. The number one way they started was using

395
00:21:19,796 --> 00:21:23,836
Speaker 3: a timer right to remind themselves because they wouldn't remember

396
00:21:23,876 --> 00:21:26,756
Speaker 3: to take the break. You'd forget, you'd just forget exactly.

397
00:21:27,196 --> 00:21:31,676
Speaker 3: But what ended up happening is their bodies started reminding them.

398
00:21:31,716 --> 00:21:35,076
Speaker 3: After a certain amount of time, they started to build

399
00:21:35,076 --> 00:21:38,116
Speaker 3: that sense of interception. I just was talking to some

400
00:21:38,156 --> 00:21:42,316
Speaker 3: researchers who are studying how circadian rhythms can affect motivation.

401
00:21:42,996 --> 00:21:46,436
Speaker 3: So your body literally will create a clock in you

402
00:21:46,636 --> 00:21:49,356
Speaker 3: to be like you who time to get up and move.

403
00:21:49,836 --> 00:21:54,196
Speaker 3: You can't concentrate anymore. I love that that, Like, even

404
00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:55,996
Speaker 3: if our monkey brain is like I don't want to

405
00:21:56,036 --> 00:21:58,236
Speaker 3: get up and move, your body will be like I'm

406
00:21:58,276 --> 00:22:01,036
Speaker 3: compelling you right now because I need this and we

407
00:22:01,076 --> 00:22:04,156
Speaker 3: can start to hear it. But also I think there's

408
00:22:04,156 --> 00:22:07,596
Speaker 3: something to be said, like, if you're in flow, fine,

409
00:22:07,716 --> 00:22:09,796
Speaker 3: so skip a break. This is like it's going me.

410
00:22:09,836 --> 00:22:12,356
Speaker 3: One break's not gonna make that big a difference. And

411
00:22:12,396 --> 00:22:16,196
Speaker 3: the people who actually succeeded and saw benefits. Did four

412
00:22:16,276 --> 00:22:18,436
Speaker 3: breaks a day, five breaks a day. It wasn't like

413
00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:21,636
Speaker 3: sixteen breaks a day. And I think to me, like,

414
00:22:21,676 --> 00:22:24,556
Speaker 3: we can look at clinical data, we can talk about

415
00:22:24,596 --> 00:22:28,476
Speaker 3: gold standards and science, but honestly, the best movement is

416
00:22:28,516 --> 00:22:31,156
Speaker 3: the one you take right. So, like, if you take

417
00:22:31,236 --> 00:22:34,636
Speaker 3: one break in the middle of the day, amazing. Start there.

418
00:22:35,156 --> 00:22:39,156
Speaker 3: If you take eight and that works for you, awesome.

419
00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:42,836
Speaker 3: We are setting the bar pretty low here, and it

420
00:22:42,916 --> 00:22:47,716
Speaker 3: has outsize effects. That's what for. Once something that is free,

421
00:22:47,796 --> 00:22:51,236
Speaker 3: that's easy to do, that doesn't take that long, actually

422
00:22:51,276 --> 00:22:55,316
Speaker 3: has a huge impact and is good for you and

423
00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:59,076
Speaker 3: makes you feel good. That seems unbelievably surprising to me

424
00:22:59,596 --> 00:23:00,196
Speaker 3: and exciting.

425
00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:03,756
Speaker 2: And so as we take this exciting news and engineer

426
00:23:03,796 --> 00:23:05,756
Speaker 2: more movement back into our days, we also have to

427
00:23:05,796 --> 00:23:08,436
Speaker 2: address the specific sensory organs and the parts of our

428
00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:11,116
Speaker 2: bodies that are under digital assault. Were you kind of

429
00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:13,516
Speaker 2: surprised when you started to learn the work about how

430
00:23:13,596 --> 00:23:16,836
Speaker 2: much digital life is reshaping all our sensory organs?

431
00:23:17,396 --> 00:23:23,076
Speaker 3: Yes, I think I subconsciously and many of us subconsciously

432
00:23:23,196 --> 00:23:26,876
Speaker 3: knew that something was happening, but we always think like, oh, well,

433
00:23:26,876 --> 00:23:30,036
Speaker 3: it's just me. I'm the weirdo, and it's not. I mean,

434
00:23:30,236 --> 00:23:33,796
Speaker 3: we now know that, for example, one out of three

435
00:23:34,556 --> 00:23:39,236
Speaker 3: children are nearsighted, meaning they can see close but can't

436
00:23:39,236 --> 00:23:42,116
Speaker 3: see far. And you think like, huh, we must be

437
00:23:42,276 --> 00:23:46,276
Speaker 3: genetically passing that on to our kids. No, that's not why.

438
00:23:46,356 --> 00:23:50,516
Speaker 3: It's because of our technological habits. So I reached out

439
00:23:50,556 --> 00:23:53,556
Speaker 3: to people who are studying things like this, like doctor

440
00:23:53,596 --> 00:23:57,756
Speaker 3: Maria lu at Berkeley, who literally has been studying what

441
00:23:57,996 --> 00:24:00,796
Speaker 3: happens to the shape of our eyeball when we spend

442
00:24:01,356 --> 00:24:04,836
Speaker 3: lots of time looking at a screen doing near work,

443
00:24:04,876 --> 00:24:08,276
Speaker 3: and the eyeball your body wants to help you. That's

444
00:24:08,276 --> 00:24:11,156
Speaker 3: what I've learned. We go along. If you're like I

445
00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:13,156
Speaker 3: need to look at things that are really close to

446
00:24:13,196 --> 00:24:16,156
Speaker 3: me all day, your eyeballs will be like I got you,

447
00:24:16,396 --> 00:24:19,516
Speaker 3: and they'll form a shape that helps you do that

448
00:24:19,716 --> 00:24:24,756
Speaker 3: all day long. Trouble is, when you're back in class,

449
00:24:24,876 --> 00:24:27,236
Speaker 3: or you go to drive a car, or you go

450
00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:29,796
Speaker 3: to the movie theater, you will not be able to

451
00:24:29,916 --> 00:24:31,996
Speaker 3: see very far because your eyes are like, well, we

452
00:24:31,996 --> 00:24:35,756
Speaker 3: don't do that anymore. So that is fascinating to me,

453
00:24:35,876 --> 00:24:38,836
Speaker 3: and you hear like the twenty twenty twenty rule like

454
00:24:39,076 --> 00:24:41,476
Speaker 3: for every twenty minutes of sitting twenty feet into the

455
00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:45,476
Speaker 3: distance for twenty seconds. She's like, I'm so sorry to

456
00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:48,996
Speaker 3: tell you this, but that is simply not enough. So

457
00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:51,436
Speaker 3: she says, what you really need to do is get

458
00:24:51,796 --> 00:24:55,716
Speaker 3: if you can. All comes back to every half hour, Laurie. Honestly,

459
00:24:55,796 --> 00:24:57,596
Speaker 3: every single person I talk to about every part of

460
00:24:57,596 --> 00:25:01,156
Speaker 3: the body, it's every half hour. She ideally would like

461
00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:04,836
Speaker 3: you to go outside every half hour and look in

462
00:25:04,916 --> 00:25:06,996
Speaker 3: the distance at a horizon. I was like, can I

463
00:25:07,076 --> 00:25:10,636
Speaker 3: look out the window? She said no, because your peripheral

464
00:25:10,716 --> 00:25:12,876
Speaker 3: vision will know that there are walls. Like you need

465
00:25:12,916 --> 00:25:16,796
Speaker 3: to get the full Uh, yes, you need the full distance. Also,

466
00:25:16,836 --> 00:25:19,516
Speaker 3: when you go outside, even on a cloudy day, you

467
00:25:19,716 --> 00:25:22,956
Speaker 3: get sunlight. Right. They don't quite know exactly what it

468
00:25:22,996 --> 00:25:25,516
Speaker 3: is about sunlight, whether it's the vitamin D, whether it

469
00:25:25,596 --> 00:25:29,836
Speaker 3: activates serotonin, the happiness hormone in animals. They have seen

470
00:25:29,876 --> 00:25:33,436
Speaker 3: different kinds of retinal cells that actually produce serotonin when

471
00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:37,156
Speaker 3: they're exposed to sunlight. So the bad news is, if

472
00:25:37,196 --> 00:25:39,316
Speaker 3: you're an adult and you're already in your sided, hello,

473
00:25:39,476 --> 00:25:44,356
Speaker 3: that's me. Sorry, too bad. But the good news is

474
00:25:45,116 --> 00:25:49,556
Speaker 3: your eyeballs are still growing and forming even into your thirties,

475
00:25:50,076 --> 00:25:54,356
Speaker 3: So if you are a young person, you can still

476
00:25:54,396 --> 00:25:57,956
Speaker 3: take breaks, you can still stop the myopia from happening

477
00:25:57,996 --> 00:26:00,836
Speaker 3: to you. They did a study in China where they

478
00:26:00,836 --> 00:26:03,716
Speaker 3: made kids go outside for two hours a day instead

479
00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:06,316
Speaker 3: of the usual half hour for their recess, and they

480
00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:09,956
Speaker 3: saw a drop in your sidedness in kids. So going

481
00:26:09,956 --> 00:26:12,516
Speaker 3: outside and playing isn't just to get your yayas out.

482
00:26:12,636 --> 00:26:15,916
Speaker 3: This is so you can see. Because higher rates of

483
00:26:16,076 --> 00:26:20,676
Speaker 3: near sidedness or myopia has been linked to blindness, It's

484
00:26:20,676 --> 00:26:23,876
Speaker 3: been linked to glaucoma later in life. These are serious

485
00:26:23,916 --> 00:26:26,596
Speaker 3: issues that we don't like to think about what happens

486
00:26:26,636 --> 00:26:29,276
Speaker 3: decades down, But we're living longer and we want to

487
00:26:29,476 --> 00:26:33,956
Speaker 3: live well, right, so we need to protect basic sensory organs.

488
00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:36,276
Speaker 2: I love this recommendation to get sunlight, but I'm sure

489
00:26:36,276 --> 00:26:38,196
Speaker 2: there are people listening right now who work in some

490
00:26:38,756 --> 00:26:41,076
Speaker 2: huge office and are thinking like, Okay, yeah, I would

491
00:26:41,076 --> 00:26:43,236
Speaker 2: love to get sunlight, but like, I'm not gonna head

492
00:26:43,276 --> 00:26:45,636
Speaker 2: down in my big elevator and my huge SIAS scraper

493
00:26:45,676 --> 00:26:47,996
Speaker 2: every thirty minutes. I think there's also this worry that

494
00:26:48,036 --> 00:26:49,996
Speaker 2: if you're getting up to leave all the time, either

495
00:26:50,076 --> 00:26:52,316
Speaker 2: to go outside or just to get your legs moving

496
00:26:52,756 --> 00:26:54,596
Speaker 2: that your boss or your coworkers are going to be

497
00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:56,556
Speaker 2: looking at you like what is wrong with this person?

498
00:26:56,636 --> 00:26:58,876
Speaker 2: So any advice for wanting to take these breaks?

499
00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:01,316
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it's not that long ago that we

500
00:27:01,476 --> 00:27:03,356
Speaker 3: used to say like, oh, I'm just going to pop

501
00:27:03,396 --> 00:27:07,156
Speaker 3: outside for a smoke. That used to be completely normal

502
00:27:07,276 --> 00:27:09,516
Speaker 3: and no one would bat an eye if you were

503
00:27:09,556 --> 00:27:11,356
Speaker 3: like I'm just gonna go out and grab a cigarette.

504
00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:13,076
Speaker 3: I know that might be shocking to some people now,

505
00:27:13,156 --> 00:27:15,836
Speaker 3: but that really was normal. So what if you instead

506
00:27:15,836 --> 00:27:17,316
Speaker 3: of going to get a smoke break, you were going

507
00:27:17,356 --> 00:27:19,196
Speaker 3: to get a move break. I'm just gonna go take

508
00:27:19,196 --> 00:27:21,676
Speaker 3: a quick move break. Cool, Okay, see you in five minutes.

509
00:27:22,356 --> 00:27:24,436
Speaker 3: That would be great. But also we need to start

510
00:27:24,436 --> 00:27:26,996
Speaker 3: at the top, right Like bosses, you need to know

511
00:27:27,236 --> 00:27:30,796
Speaker 3: that the research is there that when it comes to productivity,

512
00:27:31,116 --> 00:27:35,956
Speaker 3: quality of work, worker engagement, and satisfaction, people are not

513
00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:38,956
Speaker 3: happy right now. There's so much talk of burnout. This

514
00:27:38,996 --> 00:27:41,036
Speaker 3: is something simple you can do that is not a

515
00:27:41,076 --> 00:27:43,196
Speaker 3: gift to your workers. It is actually a gift to

516
00:27:43,236 --> 00:27:45,916
Speaker 3: your bottom line because what you will see is higher

517
00:27:45,996 --> 00:27:50,916
Speaker 3: employee retention, better work, and just a happier office from

518
00:27:50,916 --> 00:27:53,796
Speaker 3: what we understand, Like, maybe there's a meeting and you

519
00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:56,836
Speaker 3: kick off the meeting with walking around the conference table

520
00:27:56,956 --> 00:27:59,756
Speaker 3: and sort of giving an update, or maybe sixty minute

521
00:27:59,796 --> 00:28:02,316
Speaker 3: meetings are now fifty five minute meetings. You can have

522
00:28:02,356 --> 00:28:05,516
Speaker 3: that setting in Google calendar where you build in a

523
00:28:05,556 --> 00:28:09,196
Speaker 3: buffer of five extra minutes. Or maybe it's okay and

524
00:28:09,276 --> 00:28:11,996
Speaker 3: you're on a zoom to turn off your screens and

525
00:28:12,276 --> 00:28:15,436
Speaker 3: shuffle side to side if you are not expected to

526
00:28:15,476 --> 00:28:19,276
Speaker 3: present something on camera. It's these really small changes to

527
00:28:19,476 --> 00:28:22,756
Speaker 3: cultural norms that we're going to need to have in

528
00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:26,036
Speaker 3: order to make sure that we bring a little more movement,

529
00:28:26,156 --> 00:28:29,356
Speaker 3: some more breaks, and optimize the way that we work.

530
00:28:29,396 --> 00:28:33,516
Speaker 3: Because it's not working now that is very clear. It's

531
00:28:33,556 --> 00:28:34,516
Speaker 3: time for a quick break.

532
00:28:34,716 --> 00:28:36,956
Speaker 2: But when we return, Minusia and I will explore what

533
00:28:37,036 --> 00:28:39,396
Speaker 2: screen time is doing to the rest of our bodies,

534
00:28:39,756 --> 00:28:42,276
Speaker 2: from our ears, to our spines to even our lungs,

535
00:28:42,596 --> 00:28:45,636
Speaker 2: and she'll share some simple practical ways to counteract those

536
00:28:45,636 --> 00:28:48,596
Speaker 2: effects so that we can feel both physically and mentally

537
00:28:48,716 --> 00:28:49,596
Speaker 2: a little healthier.

538
00:28:50,076 --> 00:28:51,796
Speaker 1: The Happiness Lab will be right back.

539
00:29:08,716 --> 00:29:11,916
Speaker 2: As I was the most horrified by the session in

540
00:29:11,956 --> 00:29:16,316
Speaker 2: your book on our Ears, how is our technology negatively

541
00:29:16,356 --> 00:29:17,236
Speaker 2: affecting our ears?

542
00:29:17,716 --> 00:29:20,596
Speaker 3: While it is really interesting? So Rick knightsl at the

543
00:29:20,676 --> 00:29:24,036
Speaker 3: University of Michigan has been partnering with Apple to do

544
00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:29,196
Speaker 3: the largest study of how people are listening these days essentially,

545
00:29:29,236 --> 00:29:31,476
Speaker 3: so you can actually join the study on your phone

546
00:29:31,556 --> 00:29:33,876
Speaker 3: if you want to, and it's not going to come

547
00:29:33,876 --> 00:29:37,396
Speaker 3: as any surprise to you that we are listening longer

548
00:29:37,756 --> 00:29:40,036
Speaker 3: and more loudly, essentially.

549
00:29:39,756 --> 00:29:41,396
Speaker 2: And it seems like in a different way where we

550
00:29:41,436 --> 00:29:42,956
Speaker 2: have this thing in our ear in a way that

551
00:29:42,996 --> 00:29:46,636
Speaker 2: we might not have before. Interestingly, they didn't find any

552
00:29:46,636 --> 00:29:50,516
Speaker 2: difference between air pods or earbuds and headphones. There hasn't

553
00:29:50,516 --> 00:29:53,556
Speaker 2: been any of that. But I know people who wear

554
00:29:53,596 --> 00:29:56,316
Speaker 2: them all day long. So there are some people who

555
00:29:56,356 --> 00:29:59,276
Speaker 2: are wearing them because they're blocking out the world, because

556
00:29:59,276 --> 00:30:02,476
Speaker 2: they need to concentrate, or you know how many people

557
00:30:02,556 --> 00:30:04,916
Speaker 2: do I see walking the dog and we're all listening

558
00:30:04,956 --> 00:30:07,676
Speaker 2: to something or going to the grocery store. It's this

559
00:30:07,756 --> 00:30:12,156
Speaker 2: sort of ambient music podcast, news, phone calls, zooms, all

560
00:30:12,196 --> 00:30:14,276
Speaker 2: the rest of it. We take sound with us wherever

561
00:30:14,316 --> 00:30:16,556
Speaker 2: we go, which is cool.

562
00:30:16,676 --> 00:30:20,516
Speaker 3: A lot of the time. However, a couple problems here.

563
00:30:20,596 --> 00:30:23,876
Speaker 3: One is that when we're outside we raise the volume

564
00:30:24,036 --> 00:30:26,916
Speaker 3: because there's construction or a loud car or whatever else,

565
00:30:26,956 --> 00:30:29,676
Speaker 3: and we're listening at volumes that are much too loud

566
00:30:29,716 --> 00:30:32,836
Speaker 3: for us. Whereas when I was in my twenties, you know,

567
00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:34,916
Speaker 3: you'd leave a club and you couldn't hear for a

568
00:30:34,916 --> 00:30:37,796
Speaker 3: couple hours. People are having more of that like all

569
00:30:37,836 --> 00:30:39,716
Speaker 3: the time, and they're not even noticing. And if there's

570
00:30:39,756 --> 00:30:41,116
Speaker 3: good news and there's bad news when it comes to

571
00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:43,996
Speaker 3: your ears, the good news is if you take a

572
00:30:44,036 --> 00:30:48,636
Speaker 3: break and give yourself breaks from sound, your ears will recover.

573
00:30:48,956 --> 00:30:51,916
Speaker 3: You have a little sillia, those little hairs in your ears,

574
00:30:52,476 --> 00:30:57,196
Speaker 3: they get flattened, essentially, if you have some quiet time,

575
00:30:57,796 --> 00:31:03,316
Speaker 3: they will come back to life. However, if they're constantly assaulted,

576
00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:06,396
Speaker 3: they will die and they will never grow back. Ever,

577
00:31:06,556 --> 00:31:09,516
Speaker 3: you don't get more sillia. So there is a concern,

578
00:31:09,596 --> 00:31:15,196
Speaker 3: you know, will there be rising rates of hearing disorders essentially,

579
00:31:15,436 --> 00:31:17,756
Speaker 3: And what we know is that when you have trouble hearing,

580
00:31:18,156 --> 00:31:22,436
Speaker 3: that makes you more susceptible to dementia, to falling. You're

581
00:31:22,476 --> 00:31:26,356
Speaker 3: also just missing out on conversation in life, on hearing

582
00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:29,996
Speaker 3: the birds, all those other things. So once again it

583
00:31:30,036 --> 00:31:33,196
Speaker 3: comes back to giving your body breaks.

584
00:31:34,476 --> 00:31:37,196
Speaker 2: And so those are our sensory systems. But beyond our

585
00:31:37,196 --> 00:31:39,756
Speaker 2: sensory systems, we also need to address what technology is

586
00:31:39,796 --> 00:31:43,436
Speaker 2: doing to our posture, which you've argued has two big

587
00:31:43,476 --> 00:31:46,516
Speaker 2: physiological effects. One is on our spine and the other

588
00:31:46,636 --> 00:31:49,116
Speaker 2: is on our lungs. So let's start with our spine.

589
00:31:49,156 --> 00:31:52,316
Speaker 2: How is our technology hurting what our spine needs to

590
00:31:52,356 --> 00:31:52,996
Speaker 2: feel healthy.

591
00:31:53,556 --> 00:31:57,796
Speaker 3: There's some really interesting new work being done to understand

592
00:31:57,836 --> 00:32:02,916
Speaker 3: the connection between how we hold ourselves and various organs.

593
00:32:02,996 --> 00:32:05,916
Speaker 3: So this is Peter Strick at the University of Pittsburgh

594
00:32:06,116 --> 00:32:09,796
Speaker 3: who has found that actually are a drenal glide. Those

595
00:32:09,796 --> 00:32:11,956
Speaker 3: are sitting right on our sides of our stomach, right,

596
00:32:11,996 --> 00:32:14,516
Speaker 3: and these are the glands that squeeze out cortisole like

597
00:32:14,556 --> 00:32:17,876
Speaker 3: when we're nervous, when we're excited, we're like that anxiety right, squitch,

598
00:32:17,916 --> 00:32:22,156
Speaker 3: squis squish. It turns out that there is a system

599
00:32:22,316 --> 00:32:27,756
Speaker 3: that is linked between your abdominal muscles, the adrenal glands,

600
00:32:27,836 --> 00:32:31,876
Speaker 3: and a section in your brain. So essentially we're talking about,

601
00:32:32,276 --> 00:32:34,676
Speaker 3: you know, why do people feel more relaxed after they

602
00:32:34,676 --> 00:32:39,076
Speaker 3: do pilates or yoga. This is the science as to

603
00:32:39,196 --> 00:32:43,636
Speaker 3: why there is this connection between our organs, our muscles,

604
00:32:43,636 --> 00:32:46,236
Speaker 3: and our brain. They are all hardwired and talking to

605
00:32:46,276 --> 00:32:49,236
Speaker 3: each other in ways that we are just starting to learn,

606
00:32:49,356 --> 00:32:52,796
Speaker 3: which is fascinating to me. So his whole thing is

607
00:32:53,076 --> 00:32:54,876
Speaker 3: if you don't use your core, and what do you

608
00:32:54,876 --> 00:32:56,316
Speaker 3: do when you're slumped in front of a screen.

609
00:32:56,356 --> 00:32:58,596
Speaker 2: You're not using your core. Your spine is you're almost

610
00:32:58,596 --> 00:33:01,636
Speaker 2: in this cashew shape, kind of slumped over. Yeah, exactly,

611
00:33:01,676 --> 00:33:04,796
Speaker 2: you're compressed in some way. Then there's also the fact

612
00:33:04,796 --> 00:33:07,636
Speaker 2: that when you're seated like this, you compress your diaphragm.

613
00:33:07,876 --> 00:33:10,236
Speaker 2: That's where you want to fill it up with lots

614
00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:12,836
Speaker 2: of air so you can oxygenate your brain.

615
00:33:13,636 --> 00:33:17,236
Speaker 3: When you don't take in enough oxygen, you don't feed

616
00:33:17,276 --> 00:33:19,316
Speaker 3: your brain, and there starts to actually be a build

617
00:33:19,396 --> 00:33:21,836
Speaker 3: up of CO two, which is when you start to

618
00:33:21,916 --> 00:33:26,236
Speaker 3: lose focus, You get tired, you get foggy, can't concentrate,

619
00:33:26,676 --> 00:33:29,716
Speaker 3: feel exhausted, anxious. Any of that sound familiar after a

620
00:33:29,756 --> 00:33:31,196
Speaker 3: couple hours on a screen.

621
00:33:31,196 --> 00:33:31,996
Speaker 1: So familiar.

622
00:33:32,036 --> 00:33:33,636
Speaker 2: And one of the things I was so struck by

623
00:33:33,756 --> 00:33:36,716
Speaker 2: in your work is just this connection between like what

624
00:33:36,756 --> 00:33:39,036
Speaker 2: we're doing with our spines and our breath and our

625
00:33:39,116 --> 00:33:41,636
Speaker 2: mental health. You know, we talk so much on this podcast,

626
00:33:41,636 --> 00:33:43,916
Speaker 2: and I talk so much with my students about increasing

627
00:33:43,956 --> 00:33:46,916
Speaker 2: anxiety and young people, and we often think that, again,

628
00:33:46,956 --> 00:33:49,036
Speaker 2: that's because of the content of what we're seeing on

629
00:33:49,036 --> 00:33:51,676
Speaker 2: our screens. We're seeing all this anxiety provoking stuff, But

630
00:33:51,716 --> 00:33:53,876
Speaker 2: it might just be the way that we're sitting when

631
00:33:53,876 --> 00:33:55,876
Speaker 2: we are looking at our phones, where we're hunched over.

632
00:33:56,356 --> 00:33:59,156
Speaker 1: That's kind of not allowing us to activate our core muscles.

633
00:33:59,236 --> 00:34:03,556
Speaker 2: That's literally causing us to secrete stress hormones, literally causing

634
00:34:03,556 --> 00:34:07,236
Speaker 2: our brains to reinterpret how we're breathing as anxiety. It

635
00:34:07,276 --> 00:34:08,956
Speaker 2: almost made me think, like, I wonder how much of

636
00:34:08,956 --> 00:34:11,316
Speaker 2: the anxiety crisis we are seeing in young people we

637
00:34:11,316 --> 00:34:13,636
Speaker 2: could alleviate if we just got them to sit upright

638
00:34:13,676 --> 00:34:16,036
Speaker 2: and activate their core muscles one hundred percent.

639
00:34:16,356 --> 00:34:19,916
Speaker 3: I mean, that to me is what is so frustrating

640
00:34:19,996 --> 00:34:24,436
Speaker 3: and exciting about what you're talking about. If that is

641
00:34:24,556 --> 00:34:27,756
Speaker 3: one simple thing that we can do at a time

642
00:34:27,836 --> 00:34:31,756
Speaker 3: when we feel so overloaded. You know, between the headlines

643
00:34:31,876 --> 00:34:35,316
Speaker 3: and the economics and AI, there's a lot to be

644
00:34:35,396 --> 00:34:38,516
Speaker 3: stressed out about. But if we can feel just the

645
00:34:38,556 --> 00:34:42,196
Speaker 3: tiniest bit better. And really all it is is getting

646
00:34:42,236 --> 00:34:45,156
Speaker 3: up for five minutes and moving around and giving your

647
00:34:45,196 --> 00:34:47,876
Speaker 3: ears a break from sound, and giving your eyes a

648
00:34:47,876 --> 00:34:51,196
Speaker 3: break from looking at a screen, and really taking some

649
00:34:51,396 --> 00:34:54,796
Speaker 3: full breaths and making sure we're moving our limbs a

650
00:34:54,796 --> 00:34:57,516
Speaker 3: little bit more. And if that can give us a

651
00:34:57,596 --> 00:35:01,236
Speaker 3: reset to get on with our day and maybe feel

652
00:35:01,276 --> 00:35:07,036
Speaker 3: a little more in ourselves, happier, joyful, like we can concentrate,

653
00:35:07,156 --> 00:35:09,996
Speaker 3: like we can make better decisions. To me, I like

654
00:35:10,116 --> 00:35:13,756
Speaker 3: to call that the mind body tech connection. And you know,

655
00:35:13,796 --> 00:35:15,756
Speaker 3: we hear mind body spirit and we accept that this

656
00:35:15,836 --> 00:35:18,756
Speaker 3: is a holistic thing. But technology is as much a

657
00:35:18,796 --> 00:35:22,396
Speaker 3: part of our lives as anything else. It is our lives, right,

658
00:35:22,716 --> 00:35:25,796
Speaker 3: So how do we manage that sort of cycle that

659
00:35:25,836 --> 00:35:28,076
Speaker 3: we put ourselves through. We have to be more intentional.

660
00:35:28,156 --> 00:35:29,956
Speaker 3: It's that simple and that hard.

661
00:35:30,316 --> 00:35:32,836
Speaker 2: But it also means that we can also be agentive, right,

662
00:35:32,916 --> 00:35:34,636
Speaker 2: And I think this is the thing we forget. I

663
00:35:34,636 --> 00:35:37,476
Speaker 2: think sometimes when we think about our body's relationship with technology,

664
00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:38,756
Speaker 2: it's like, well, I got to get rid.

665
00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:39,276
Speaker 1: Of my phone.

666
00:35:39,676 --> 00:35:41,876
Speaker 2: But this book is really suggesting there are forms of

667
00:35:41,916 --> 00:35:45,556
Speaker 2: stress management that just take five minutes every hour or so.

668
00:35:46,076 --> 00:35:47,436
Speaker 2: One of the things you talk about in your book

669
00:35:47,516 --> 00:35:49,676
Speaker 2: is this idea of we can think about posture as

670
00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:52,676
Speaker 2: stress management, that like, if you're feeling stressed out, just

671
00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:54,636
Speaker 2: have this moment of like, h let me get up

672
00:35:54,636 --> 00:35:56,316
Speaker 2: and walk around. When I sit back down, let me

673
00:35:56,356 --> 00:35:58,316
Speaker 2: make sure I'm not hunched over like a cashew the

674
00:35:58,316 --> 00:36:01,276
Speaker 2: whole time. This is powerful stuff because it's giving us

675
00:36:01,276 --> 00:36:04,116
Speaker 2: a way to fight back that we can actually control.

676
00:36:04,196 --> 00:36:06,876
Speaker 2: You know, I can't control what's happening in the international news.

677
00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:09,996
Speaker 2: I can't control the spread of AI. I can't control

678
00:36:09,996 --> 00:36:12,036
Speaker 2: the bad things happening in the world. But I can

679
00:36:12,036 --> 00:36:14,836
Speaker 2: definitely control whether I'm hunched over. I can definitely control

680
00:36:14,876 --> 00:36:16,916
Speaker 2: whether I hop up from the desk five minutes every

681
00:36:16,916 --> 00:36:18,596
Speaker 2: half hour to kind of get a little movement in.

682
00:36:18,956 --> 00:36:21,436
Speaker 2: These are things that are within our control to stop

683
00:36:21,476 --> 00:36:22,316
Speaker 2: the stress cycle.

684
00:36:22,516 --> 00:36:25,476
Speaker 3: I am smiling right now because how nice is it

685
00:36:25,556 --> 00:36:27,636
Speaker 3: to think that there is something that you can do?

686
00:36:27,676 --> 00:36:29,636
Speaker 3: Because I think what you've just talked about is this

687
00:36:29,676 --> 00:36:32,636
Speaker 3: sort of prevailing sense right now, is that like what

688
00:36:32,676 --> 00:36:33,556
Speaker 3: am I supposed to do?

689
00:36:33,836 --> 00:36:34,436
Speaker 1: How am I.

690
00:36:34,396 --> 00:36:38,156
Speaker 3: Supposed to be a person in the world functioning? And

691
00:36:38,756 --> 00:36:40,956
Speaker 3: I want to be careful though that we don't say

692
00:36:41,436 --> 00:36:44,236
Speaker 3: you know, this is on you individual, because it feels

693
00:36:44,316 --> 00:36:47,556
Speaker 3: like much of the responsibility is we want our structural

694
00:36:47,636 --> 00:36:51,196
Speaker 3: changes act. But just knowing that I can do something

695
00:36:51,356 --> 00:36:53,516
Speaker 3: to make a difference in my own body, or just

696
00:36:53,556 --> 00:36:56,436
Speaker 3: knowing that I'm not making it worse inadvertently through my

697
00:36:56,556 --> 00:36:59,636
Speaker 3: choices that I'm not paying attention to, just remembering that

698
00:36:59,676 --> 00:37:03,556
Speaker 3: I can have interceptive awareness that feels really powerful to me. Yeah.

699
00:37:03,716 --> 00:37:07,076
Speaker 3: I found it so interesting. So that neuroscientist doctor SOYBCLSA

700
00:37:07,156 --> 00:37:10,236
Speaker 3: has been studying the effect of FLOWA. Those are those

701
00:37:10,276 --> 00:37:13,116
Speaker 3: like saline baths where you you know, pay forty five

702
00:37:13,156 --> 00:37:15,596
Speaker 3: bucks and then you lie there naked, and the idea

703
00:37:15,716 --> 00:37:19,076
Speaker 3: is like no sensory input whatsoever to sort of reset

704
00:37:19,116 --> 00:37:21,596
Speaker 3: your nervous system. And he's like, you can do this

705
00:37:21,756 --> 00:37:26,076
Speaker 3: at home, like go into your bedroom, put down the shades,

706
00:37:26,436 --> 00:37:29,196
Speaker 3: put your phone out of the room, don't listen to anything,

707
00:37:29,556 --> 00:37:34,396
Speaker 3: don't try to meditate, just try to literally take everything

708
00:37:34,436 --> 00:37:39,836
Speaker 3: away and just let your muscles relax and breathe and

709
00:37:39,956 --> 00:37:43,076
Speaker 3: let everything just sort of be. I was like what

710
00:37:43,196 --> 00:37:45,476
Speaker 3: for five minutes he was like, actually, no, try to

711
00:37:45,516 --> 00:37:48,436
Speaker 3: go for forty five minutes once a week. He said,

712
00:37:48,476 --> 00:37:50,876
Speaker 3: that's a nice goal for you. I was like, okay,

713
00:37:51,916 --> 00:37:56,036
Speaker 3: but he was like, we're going and taking in so

714
00:37:56,396 --> 00:37:59,276
Speaker 3: much all the time. What if you just don't do

715
00:37:59,356 --> 00:38:02,276
Speaker 3: anything like for forty five minutes a week. I was like,

716
00:38:02,516 --> 00:38:04,436
Speaker 3: that's what's really nice.

717
00:38:05,036 --> 00:38:07,036
Speaker 2: So that's not doing anything for forty five minutes. But

718
00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:08,996
Speaker 2: of course we all have this time in the day

719
00:38:09,196 --> 00:38:11,556
Speaker 2: where we are giving our body the natural reset of

720
00:38:11,636 --> 00:38:14,436
Speaker 2: not doing anything, which is the domain of sleep. We've

721
00:38:14,436 --> 00:38:17,156
Speaker 2: all kind of heard that blue light is really bad,

722
00:38:17,476 --> 00:38:19,836
Speaker 2: but you've argued that the culprit might be something else.

723
00:38:19,916 --> 00:38:22,596
Speaker 3: What do you mean? Yeah, so I sort of got

724
00:38:22,676 --> 00:38:25,556
Speaker 3: deep into the data to try to understand. I thought

725
00:38:25,596 --> 00:38:27,596
Speaker 3: that blue light was the problem too. I was like, okay,

726
00:38:27,596 --> 00:38:29,596
Speaker 3: so what is it about blue light that does this

727
00:38:29,636 --> 00:38:32,636
Speaker 3: to us? And actually, the thinking has changed a lot

728
00:38:32,676 --> 00:38:36,516
Speaker 3: in the sleep research world. So this idea of blue

729
00:38:36,596 --> 00:38:39,996
Speaker 3: light being like you know, espresso for your body before

730
00:38:39,996 --> 00:38:43,436
Speaker 3: you go to sleep came from one particular small Harvard

731
00:38:43,476 --> 00:38:46,156
Speaker 3: study where it was a group of undergrads who were

732
00:38:46,196 --> 00:38:50,596
Speaker 3: looking at iPads at the highest brightest setting for hours

733
00:38:50,636 --> 00:38:53,396
Speaker 3: before they went to sleep in the sleep lab, and

734
00:38:53,556 --> 00:38:57,356
Speaker 3: even they didn't actually miss out on that much sleep.

735
00:38:57,396 --> 00:38:59,516
Speaker 3: It disrupted some of their sleep. But also, like, I

736
00:38:59,516 --> 00:39:01,116
Speaker 3: don't know, if I was looking at an iPad for

737
00:39:01,156 --> 00:39:04,276
Speaker 3: three hours at the brightest setting, like that would definitely

738
00:39:04,316 --> 00:39:08,356
Speaker 3: be a problem. Generally, what they're starting to find is

739
00:39:08,396 --> 00:39:11,836
Speaker 3: it's not the blue light, it's the habits that these

740
00:39:11,876 --> 00:39:15,316
Speaker 3: screens put us into. So, oh my god, we were

741
00:39:15,316 --> 00:39:18,436
Speaker 3: watching mad Men again last night, and how much did

742
00:39:18,436 --> 00:39:20,796
Speaker 3: we want to like, just keep watching the next episode.

743
00:39:20,836 --> 00:39:23,476
Speaker 3: That's what Netflix wants us to do. And so what

744
00:39:23,516 --> 00:39:25,516
Speaker 3: do we do. Let's just watch half of the next episode.

745
00:39:25,556 --> 00:39:27,796
Speaker 3: Oh wait, and then we watch the whole episode, and

746
00:39:27,876 --> 00:39:30,556
Speaker 3: there we are going to bed forty five minutes later. Oh,

747
00:39:30,556 --> 00:39:32,956
Speaker 3: we shouldn't have looked at a screen before bed. No,

748
00:39:33,476 --> 00:39:36,276
Speaker 3: you shouldn't have stayed up and watched another episode. Like,

749
00:39:36,396 --> 00:39:39,556
Speaker 3: let's be real. So really, like what they're saying is

750
00:39:40,196 --> 00:39:43,356
Speaker 3: it's not really the blue light. And frankly, that light

751
00:39:43,436 --> 00:39:47,396
Speaker 3: is not that strong. This does not apply to kids. Kids, definitely,

752
00:39:47,436 --> 00:39:50,156
Speaker 3: their eyes are in a different way. They are changing,

753
00:39:50,196 --> 00:39:52,676
Speaker 3: they are forming. The light needs to be low at night.

754
00:39:53,756 --> 00:39:56,076
Speaker 3: There are some people who are very sensitive to light,

755
00:39:56,156 --> 00:39:58,756
Speaker 3: in which case, you know, dimming the lights following the

756
00:39:58,796 --> 00:40:02,076
Speaker 3: sun is really useful sort of bringing your body down.

757
00:40:02,196 --> 00:40:04,636
Speaker 3: But at the end of the day, we have to

758
00:40:04,676 --> 00:40:07,276
Speaker 3: take a hard look at ourselves in our own habits

759
00:40:07,316 --> 00:40:10,396
Speaker 3: and not blame the blue light as much as the

760
00:40:10,436 --> 00:40:13,596
Speaker 3: sirens call of what is going on on those screens.

761
00:40:14,036 --> 00:40:17,196
Speaker 3: And also a lot of us are using our technology

762
00:40:17,236 --> 00:40:19,796
Speaker 3: to self soothe before we go to bed, right it

763
00:40:19,836 --> 00:40:23,316
Speaker 3: is harder to maybe try and do a muscle relaxation

764
00:40:23,836 --> 00:40:26,676
Speaker 3: or read a really boring book with a cup of

765
00:40:26,716 --> 00:40:29,236
Speaker 3: camra meal tea that just doesn't sound as interesting as

766
00:40:29,676 --> 00:40:33,356
Speaker 3: scrolling on Instagram and you know, mindlessly sort of trying

767
00:40:33,396 --> 00:40:34,076
Speaker 3: to zone out.

768
00:40:34,516 --> 00:40:36,356
Speaker 2: The problem is also that we use our phones to

769
00:40:36,476 --> 00:40:38,196
Speaker 2: self soothe when we wake up in the middle of

770
00:40:38,236 --> 00:40:39,636
Speaker 2: the night. I know I am guilty of this. I

771
00:40:39,676 --> 00:40:40,836
Speaker 2: wake up in the middle of the night and I'm

772
00:40:40,836 --> 00:40:42,476
Speaker 2: feeling anxious and I'm like, oh, let me look at

773
00:40:42,476 --> 00:40:42,876
Speaker 2: my phone.

774
00:40:42,876 --> 00:40:44,516
Speaker 1: And now I'm looking at my phone and that's going

775
00:40:44,596 --> 00:40:45,156
Speaker 1: to keep me up.

776
00:40:45,236 --> 00:40:49,036
Speaker 2: So for the chronic insomniac like me who feels like

777
00:40:49,196 --> 00:40:50,396
Speaker 2: when they wake up in the middle of the night,

778
00:40:50,676 --> 00:40:52,396
Speaker 2: they need their phone to self soothe.

779
00:40:52,436 --> 00:40:52,956
Speaker 1: Their phone is.

780
00:40:52,956 --> 00:40:54,556
Speaker 2: Their only friend at three in the morning, when no

781
00:40:54,556 --> 00:40:56,836
Speaker 2: one's talking to them. Yeah, what's the first step to

782
00:40:56,916 --> 00:40:58,116
Speaker 2: breaking that feedback loop?

783
00:40:58,356 --> 00:41:00,716
Speaker 3: Well, you've heard it before, right, don't keep your phone

784
00:41:00,716 --> 00:41:03,316
Speaker 3: in your bedroom, blah blah blah. Okay, I don't ascribe

785
00:41:03,356 --> 00:41:05,716
Speaker 3: to that. I have elderly parents and I have a

786
00:41:05,796 --> 00:41:07,996
Speaker 3: kid away at college. I keep my phone next to

787
00:41:07,996 --> 00:41:10,556
Speaker 3: my bed for emergencies, but I do have it set

788
00:41:10,676 --> 00:41:13,516
Speaker 3: so that only their calls can come through, so I

789
00:41:13,556 --> 00:41:15,996
Speaker 3: will not be woken up by spam. Okay, So I'm

790
00:41:15,996 --> 00:41:19,276
Speaker 3: going to let you in on my secret technique. So

791
00:41:19,356 --> 00:41:21,396
Speaker 3: I also would say, like, pretend you're in a float

792
00:41:21,476 --> 00:41:24,116
Speaker 3: right while you're lying there and you're awake. I pretend

793
00:41:24,236 --> 00:41:27,436
Speaker 3: that I'm on a first class airline flight and there's

794
00:41:27,516 --> 00:41:29,916
Speaker 3: no Wi Fi on the flight, and all I can

795
00:41:29,956 --> 00:41:32,556
Speaker 3: hear is the rush of the engines and there's nothing

796
00:41:32,596 --> 00:41:34,836
Speaker 3: I can do. And isn't it great that I upgraded

797
00:41:34,916 --> 00:41:37,956
Speaker 3: to this bed that lies out flat? I am so lucky.

798
00:41:38,356 --> 00:41:40,996
Speaker 3: I'm just going to lie here and just like bask

799
00:41:41,076 --> 00:41:45,636
Speaker 3: in the luxuriousness and wait for my destination. That is

800
00:41:45,716 --> 00:41:47,796
Speaker 3: my own sort of personal hack.

801
00:41:49,236 --> 00:41:51,396
Speaker 2: Mine when I'm doing the right kind of thing, is

802
00:41:51,436 --> 00:41:54,116
Speaker 2: a hack where I imagine that I'm in this one

803
00:41:54,156 --> 00:41:56,116
Speaker 2: hotel room I stayed at where I could hear the

804
00:41:56,156 --> 00:41:58,836
Speaker 2: ocean outside. It was this gorgeous hotel room in Puerto

805
00:41:58,916 --> 00:42:01,236
Speaker 2: Rico where you could hear the waves outside, and I'm

806
00:42:01,276 --> 00:42:03,956
Speaker 2: just imagining what the waves sound like. That when I'm

807
00:42:03,996 --> 00:42:05,956
Speaker 2: doing it right and not waking up in the middle

808
00:42:05,996 --> 00:42:07,556
Speaker 2: of night to look at Reddit works pretty well for

809
00:42:07,716 --> 00:42:08,036
Speaker 2: me too.

810
00:42:08,236 --> 00:42:10,556
Speaker 3: Oh that's nice. That's really nice.

811
00:42:12,116 --> 00:42:15,316
Speaker 2: So we definitely need more sensory resets to support our

812
00:42:15,356 --> 00:42:18,596
Speaker 2: physical and mental health. But Manush says it's not just

813
00:42:18,636 --> 00:42:21,076
Speaker 2: about five minute breaks or even a full night of sleep.

814
00:42:21,596 --> 00:42:25,316
Speaker 2: We also need longer stretches of downtime time to reconnect

815
00:42:25,356 --> 00:42:28,756
Speaker 2: with ourselves and make better decisions. In her book, she

816
00:42:28,876 --> 00:42:31,276
Speaker 2: calls this kind of time the neutral zone.

817
00:42:31,396 --> 00:42:33,516
Speaker 3: I will say that phrase is not for me. It

818
00:42:33,596 --> 00:42:36,636
Speaker 3: is from a consultant actually a couple decades ago he's

819
00:42:36,676 --> 00:42:39,876
Speaker 3: no longer with us, who studied how corporations how did

820
00:42:39,876 --> 00:42:42,516
Speaker 3: they make it through big transitions. And what he found

821
00:42:42,636 --> 00:42:47,236
Speaker 3: was that the companies that survived big upheaval actually didn't

822
00:42:47,396 --> 00:42:51,076
Speaker 3: rush from like Okay, there's layoffs, we're reorguing, this is

823
00:42:51,116 --> 00:42:53,876
Speaker 3: what we're doing next. They actually went through this space

824
00:42:54,076 --> 00:42:58,036
Speaker 3: of sort of absorbing the shock of change, sitting with

825
00:42:58,076 --> 00:43:02,276
Speaker 3: it before deciding what to do next, sort of taking

826
00:43:02,316 --> 00:43:04,916
Speaker 3: the time. And in my personal life, I try to

827
00:43:04,956 --> 00:43:06,716
Speaker 3: think of it that way too, Like there might be

828
00:43:06,796 --> 00:43:08,436
Speaker 3: times in your life when you feel like you are

829
00:43:08,436 --> 00:43:10,756
Speaker 3: spending your wheel a little bit, and actually this really

830
00:43:10,756 --> 00:43:14,116
Speaker 3: important time because we need to give ourselves space to

831
00:43:14,996 --> 00:43:19,996
Speaker 3: think through what just happened, process it, start to imagine

832
00:43:20,036 --> 00:43:23,196
Speaker 3: what could be next. Maybe it's something that doesn't occur

833
00:43:23,316 --> 00:43:26,396
Speaker 3: to us straight away. Maybe you need some long, boring walks,

834
00:43:26,476 --> 00:43:30,236
Speaker 3: Maybe you need a couple months of, you know, just

835
00:43:30,556 --> 00:43:33,516
Speaker 3: not trying to strategize your way out of a situation,

836
00:43:33,756 --> 00:43:37,476
Speaker 3: just sort of allowing your brain to make sense of

837
00:43:37,516 --> 00:43:40,156
Speaker 3: the world you're in, the place you're going. We think

838
00:43:40,196 --> 00:43:43,196
Speaker 3: we can process as quickly as our technology can, and

839
00:43:43,236 --> 00:43:46,476
Speaker 3: we cannot. And you know, cloud and chat, GPT. They

840
00:43:46,556 --> 00:43:48,956
Speaker 3: might try to talk you into doing something and they

841
00:43:49,036 --> 00:43:51,076
Speaker 3: might sound really convincing, but at the end of the day,

842
00:43:51,196 --> 00:43:53,636
Speaker 3: that gut feeling, there's a reason why it's called the

843
00:43:53,676 --> 00:43:57,316
Speaker 3: gut feeling. The gut and the brain are connected. There

844
00:43:57,476 --> 00:44:01,116
Speaker 3: is a wholeness, a whole body sense that we need

845
00:44:01,156 --> 00:44:04,156
Speaker 3: to tap into in order to make sense of our

846
00:44:04,196 --> 00:44:05,916
Speaker 3: lives and figure out how we go forward.

847
00:44:08,156 --> 00:44:12,476
Speaker 2: Technology is just affecting our minds, it's also shaping our bodies.

848
00:44:12,916 --> 00:44:16,956
Speaker 2: The way we sit, scroll, stare, and listen can significantly.

849
00:44:16,276 --> 00:44:17,636
Speaker 3: Impact how we feel.

850
00:44:17,916 --> 00:44:20,996
Speaker 2: But as we learned from Manuche today, small changes like

851
00:44:21,036 --> 00:44:23,796
Speaker 2: a boring walk or a quick sensory break can make

852
00:44:23,836 --> 00:44:26,156
Speaker 2: a meaningful difference in our physical health.

853
00:44:25,996 --> 00:44:26,916
Speaker 1: And our well being.

854
00:44:28,076 --> 00:44:29,956
Speaker 2: If you'd like to learn more about how to improve

855
00:44:29,956 --> 00:44:32,876
Speaker 2: your body's relationship with technology, be sure to check out

856
00:44:32,916 --> 00:44:36,516
Speaker 2: Manush's new book Body Electric, The Hidden health Costs of

857
00:44:36,556 --> 00:44:39,876
Speaker 2: the Digital Age and New Science to Reclaim Your well Being,

858
00:44:40,236 --> 00:44:43,436
Speaker 2: which is out on May fifth. If you have thoughts

859
00:44:43,436 --> 00:44:46,036
Speaker 2: about today's episode, we'd love to hear them. You can

860
00:44:46,116 --> 00:44:49,436
Speaker 2: email us at Happiness Lab at Pushkin dot fm, or

861
00:44:49,516 --> 00:44:52,076
Speaker 2: leave us a review to tell us what resonated. You

862
00:44:52,116 --> 00:44:54,276
Speaker 2: can also sign up to learn more about the science

863
00:44:54,316 --> 00:44:57,396
Speaker 2: of happiness and join my free newsletter on my website,

864
00:44:57,556 --> 00:45:00,916
Speaker 2: Doctor Lai Santos dot com. That's d r l a

865
00:45:01,076 --> 00:45:04,196
Speaker 2: u ri E s a n t os dot com.

866
00:45:04,516 --> 00:45:06,836
Speaker 2: Next week, we'll continue our season on how to Spring

867
00:45:06,876 --> 00:45:09,116
Speaker 2: Clean your well Being with one of my favorite FIS

868
00:45:09,116 --> 00:45:12,516
Speaker 2: episodes from our Happiness Lab Archives. This time we'll look

869
00:45:12,516 --> 00:45:15,596
Speaker 2: at what happens when life gets too crowded. We'll share

870
00:45:15,636 --> 00:45:18,636
Speaker 2: some evidence based ideas for clearing out your busy schedule

871
00:45:19,036 --> 00:45:22,036
Speaker 2: and making room for what matters most. I just taught

872
00:45:22,036 --> 00:45:24,596
Speaker 2: two classes and had two hours of office hours.

873
00:45:24,916 --> 00:45:26,756
Speaker 3: All I'm thinking about is when am I going to

874
00:45:26,836 --> 00:45:29,836
Speaker 3: drink water? When is my next nap? You're just literally

875
00:45:29,836 --> 00:45:31,076
Speaker 3: it feels like survival.

876
00:45:31,636 --> 00:45:32,036
Speaker 1: That's all.

877
00:45:32,076 --> 00:45:34,836
Speaker 2: Next time on the Happiness Lab with me, Doctor Laurie

878
00:45:34,876 --> 00:45:41,596
Speaker 2: Santos