WEBVTT - Jason Isbell 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:15.956 Pushkin. 0:00:20.276 --> 0:00:23.476 The last couple of years have been huge for Jason Isbel. 0:00:24.356 --> 0:00:27.756 The Alabama born singer songwriter's latest album, Weather Vans, won 0:00:27.796 --> 0:00:30.876 the Grammy for Best Americana Album this year. He also 0:00:30.916 --> 0:00:33.196 snagged a role in Martin scor says He's Killers of 0:00:33.236 --> 0:00:35.556 the Flower Moon, which is up for Best Picture at 0:00:35.596 --> 0:00:39.276 this year's Oscars. Then there was a critically acclaimed HBO 0:00:39.356 --> 0:00:43.996 documentary released last year about the making of Isabel's previous album, Reunions, 0:00:44.196 --> 0:00:47.436 that also put his personal life on display warts and all. 0:00:48.356 --> 0:00:50.916 On today's episode, I've talked to Jason Isbel about the 0:00:50.956 --> 0:00:54.276 exhilarating experience of filming Killers of the Flower Moon and 0:00:54.356 --> 0:00:57.636 how he prepared to act in scenes opposite Leonardo DiCaprio. 0:00:58.476 --> 0:01:00.716 Heads up, if you haven't seen the movie yet, one 0:01:00.956 --> 0:01:04.716 you should and two there's definitely major spoilers in our conversation, 0:01:04.956 --> 0:01:08.716 so just know that going in. Jason also contemplates how 0:01:08.756 --> 0:01:11.196 old right about the dissolution of his marriage and why 0:01:11.236 --> 0:01:16.716 he struggles to write a balls out rock song. This 0:01:16.916 --> 0:01:20.876 is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin, Mitchmill. 0:01:21.476 --> 0:01:26.676 Here's my conversation with Jason Isbel. Hey, how are you man. 0:01:27.116 --> 0:01:29.876 I'm doing well. Thanks, having a good day, how about yourself? 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:32.516 Yeah, do it, having a good day, having a good day. 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:32.916 Right. 0:01:33.316 --> 0:01:36.756 We met at Shangri Lock with your manager Tracy Rick, 0:01:37.796 --> 0:01:38.956 like twenty twenty. 0:01:39.116 --> 0:01:40.796 Yeah, it's been a little while. Yeah, it's been a 0:01:40.836 --> 0:01:43.236 little while. That was a good day though. Once I 0:01:43.276 --> 0:01:45.076 got out of the car, I know that takes a 0:01:45.116 --> 0:01:46.796 long time to get out there from LA. 0:01:47.076 --> 0:01:48.836 It's a long drive. And I think you had been 0:01:48.916 --> 0:01:52.316 rehearsing for with Mayvas Staples maybe or to do something 0:01:52.356 --> 0:01:53.276 with Mayvus that day. 0:01:53.676 --> 0:01:59.076 Yes, it was. It was Mayvs's eightieth birthday. And yeah, 0:01:59.116 --> 0:02:01.156 I did all three of those. I did one in La, 0:02:01.316 --> 0:02:03.836 one in Chicago, and one in New York that year. 0:02:04.036 --> 0:02:05.596 That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing. 0:02:05.676 --> 0:02:08.436 You gotta do you know, it's Mayvas, whatever Mavis is. 0:02:08.516 --> 0:02:11.756 You just say yes and go do it. Yeah. 0:02:12.116 --> 0:02:15.236 Time is flying, man, But I'm glad we still have 0:02:15.276 --> 0:02:16.436 some legends like her around. 0:02:16.596 --> 0:02:19.756 Yeah, no doubt, So no doubt. And will I know, 0:02:20.036 --> 0:02:23.116 I know, really WILLI is still kicking man, still out 0:02:23.156 --> 0:02:26.556 doing show. He says, unbelievable. I think Willie. The thing 0:02:26.596 --> 0:02:29.876 that gives me about him is like, you know, people 0:02:29.956 --> 0:02:32.516 always say when you talk about like political stuff, that 0:02:32.556 --> 0:02:34.676 you're going to run off half of your audience. But 0:02:34.756 --> 0:02:38.116 I think unless you're Willie Nelson, you don't have an 0:02:38.196 --> 0:02:41.956 audience that is made up of every different type of person. 0:02:42.396 --> 0:02:44.036 Why do you think that, I mean, is it just 0:02:44.076 --> 0:02:46.836 because the decades he's been at it. 0:02:46.956 --> 0:02:49.996 I think it's part of what he does, you know. 0:02:50.076 --> 0:02:52.916 I think it's the way he writes songs and the 0:02:52.956 --> 0:02:56.916 way he performs. And yeah, also it's the fact that 0:02:56.956 --> 0:03:01.316 he's been doing this for nearly eight decades now, you know, 0:03:01.636 --> 0:03:03.436 because then people sort of see you as more of 0:03:03.476 --> 0:03:08.676 an institution than just a personality, and they figure that 0:03:08.716 --> 0:03:11.916 Willie's weather a whole lot of different kinds of storms. 0:03:11.716 --> 0:03:13.636 Right, Yeah, because I guess certainly early in his career 0:03:13.716 --> 0:03:19.036 he alienated the traditional country establishment early, so I guess 0:03:19.116 --> 0:03:22.996 he's gone through those various times of alienating this potential 0:03:23.036 --> 0:03:25.356 fan base in that one to rive at the place 0:03:25.516 --> 0:03:28.236 I guess not too themlike Snoop where it's kind. 0:03:28.076 --> 0:03:30.956 Of right, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Probably why they 0:03:30.996 --> 0:03:34.196 get along so well that one other reason. But yeah, 0:03:34.196 --> 0:03:36.196 I think you're right at a certain point, you know, 0:03:36.236 --> 0:03:39.236 when you're that much of a legend. You're you're just 0:03:39.356 --> 0:03:41.676 kind of like, you know, more of a piece at 0:03:41.676 --> 0:03:45.716 the fabric of cultural society rather than just an individual 0:03:46.196 --> 0:03:47.316 trying to do a job. 0:03:47.956 --> 0:03:50.916 Yeah, not to butter you up, but it seems like 0:03:50.996 --> 0:03:54.676 you're inching. Like the way your career has gone from 0:03:54.716 --> 0:03:59.876 being a really incredible guitarist, great songwriter to probably an 0:03:59.876 --> 0:04:01.996 even better songwriter and actor. 0:04:02.316 --> 0:04:04.836 And it's a lot. It's been a lot, you know, 0:04:05.156 --> 0:04:10.116 It's been really nice. The opportunities have been good ones, 0:04:10.516 --> 0:04:13.596 and I felt like I've gotten to do it at 0:04:13.596 --> 0:04:16.076 a pace for the most part, at a pace that 0:04:16.116 --> 0:04:19.756 I'm comfortable with. And I'm forty five now, so it's 0:04:19.836 --> 0:04:22.956 not like all of a sudden I'm gonna be shocked 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:27.196 by the pitfalls of celebrity. It's just like it's not 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:29.596 really gonna bother me much. Just boy it, you know. 0:04:30.236 --> 0:04:32.436 So I'm happy that things are going the way they are. 0:04:32.476 --> 0:04:34.556 It's been a really nice few years. 0:04:34.836 --> 0:04:37.516 Yeah, I want to talk about music before we talked 0:04:37.556 --> 0:04:40.636 about that. Because of The Flower Moon floored me. The script, 0:04:40.876 --> 0:04:45.636 the acting, the way it was assembled and your acting 0:04:45.916 --> 0:04:47.876 was like who knew. 0:04:47.756 --> 0:04:50.796 Yeah, I didn't know that was what was going to happen. 0:04:50.916 --> 0:04:52.596 I thought when I got there, I thought I could 0:04:52.676 --> 0:04:55.076 really screw this all up, you know, and they could 0:04:55.076 --> 0:04:58.316 send me home. But I do feel like at every 0:04:58.516 --> 0:05:03.756 stage people were working on that movie in a way 0:05:03.836 --> 0:05:06.516 that I think they were more invested with telling that 0:05:06.636 --> 0:05:09.996 story than they would have been in just in a people. 0:05:10.516 --> 0:05:14.076 And you could sense that from you know, craft services, 0:05:14.076 --> 0:05:15.716 to hair and make up, all the way up to 0:05:16.076 --> 0:05:19.036 Marty and his ads. It's like everybody there had a 0:05:19.076 --> 0:05:23.636 purpose that was beyond just making a good movie. And 0:05:23.716 --> 0:05:28.996 that kind of atmosphere really helped me do something that 0:05:29.036 --> 0:05:31.156 I didn't know if I could do or not. And 0:05:31.236 --> 0:05:35.076 then the other actress on set were so gracious with 0:05:35.156 --> 0:05:37.796 their time. I would just say what do I do here, 0:05:38.076 --> 0:05:39.996 you know, and they would tell me, well, here's what 0:05:40.036 --> 0:05:43.116 I would do, So you would just ask, oh yeah, yeah, 0:05:43.156 --> 0:05:44.996 straight up. And I told him that from the start, 0:05:45.076 --> 0:05:46.876 I was like, I don't have any training with this. 0:05:46.996 --> 0:05:49.636 I've never acted in anything before, done some voice over 0:05:49.676 --> 0:05:52.236 stuff and played myself in a couple of things, but 0:05:52.316 --> 0:05:54.236 never really acted. And I said, I'm just going to 0:05:54.476 --> 0:05:57.356 go ask people what to do, and then I will 0:05:57.396 --> 0:05:59.876 try my best to do that. And I think that 0:05:59.996 --> 0:06:03.356 was kind of refreshing for you know, Ellen, casting director 0:06:03.436 --> 0:06:05.476 and some of the producers and stuff, because they're like, 0:06:05.516 --> 0:06:06.676 all right, well we can work. 0:06:06.476 --> 0:06:07.476 With that coachable. 0:06:07.596 --> 0:06:11.156 Yeah, very highly, highly coachable. That was not mo for 0:06:11.236 --> 0:06:15.556 that whole process. But the four women who were playing 0:06:15.596 --> 0:06:20.356 the Osage sisters were extremely helpful to me because they 0:06:20.396 --> 0:06:22.116 would come up and say, who do we know in 0:06:22.116 --> 0:06:24.356 this room? What did we do this morning before this 0:06:24.436 --> 0:06:27.476 scene started, how was there night last night, and just 0:06:27.596 --> 0:06:29.556 kind of things that would get me in the headspace 0:06:29.636 --> 0:06:33.276 of character rather than think about the details of Oh 0:06:33.316 --> 0:06:35.956 my god, did I do my bow tie right? You know. 0:06:36.756 --> 0:06:41.756 That was super helpful and there was a high standard 0:06:41.876 --> 0:06:45.916 of expectation I think, but at the same time, everybody 0:06:45.996 --> 0:06:49.276 understood that, you know, I was not a professional actor, 0:06:49.316 --> 0:06:51.276 and they sort of helped me get to the point 0:06:51.276 --> 0:06:52.436 where I felt comfortable. 0:06:52.796 --> 0:06:56.116 Your role literally quite literally changed from the one that 0:06:56.156 --> 0:06:58.156 you were offered to the one that you wound up playing, 0:06:58.156 --> 0:06:59.116 which was Bill Smith. 0:06:59.396 --> 0:06:59.796 Yeah. 0:06:59.836 --> 0:07:01.916 So what point did you realize you were going to 0:07:01.916 --> 0:07:05.316 have a scene basically going head to head with Leonardo DiCaprio. 0:07:05.556 --> 0:07:07.876 Well, I had to read that scene as part of 0:07:07.916 --> 0:07:11.276 my audition, because at first you know, I had been 0:07:11.636 --> 0:07:14.956 offered some like smaller cameo roles, and I just went 0:07:15.036 --> 0:07:17.756 back and studied as hard as I could, got as 0:07:17.796 --> 0:07:21.196 much information on the story and from David's book the 0:07:21.236 --> 0:07:23.516 source material, and then went back and watched all of 0:07:23.556 --> 0:07:26.876 his library of Congress readings and Q and A's and 0:07:27.676 --> 0:07:32.836 found all the public record documentation on everybody after the 0:07:32.956 --> 0:07:34.916 end of the movie that they were telling, you know. 0:07:35.356 --> 0:07:38.276 And then finally I'm just on this laptop in my 0:07:38.436 --> 0:07:42.796 room and there's Leo and Marty on zoom on zoom. Yeah, 0:07:42.796 --> 0:07:46.036 because it was height of the pandemic, and you know, 0:07:46.116 --> 0:07:49.036 I'm just the hair and I kind of slipped my 0:07:49.036 --> 0:07:51.356 hair back and put on a brown shirt that looked 0:07:51.356 --> 0:07:54.076 like it could have existed a one hundred years ago. 0:07:54.116 --> 0:07:56.076 I think it was viz Vim was what I was wearing, 0:07:56.076 --> 0:07:58.796 because it was the closest, closest I had to one 0:07:58.876 --> 0:08:02.876 hundred year old Oklahoma shirt, you know, And just wound 0:08:02.956 --> 0:08:06.756 up doing that like at home on my what was it, 0:08:06.876 --> 0:08:10.756 forty first, forty second birthday thing, and yeah, so it 0:08:10.796 --> 0:08:13.076 was I was terrified. I was terrified, but I was 0:08:13.116 --> 0:08:17.596 also determined, you know, I didn't want to get that 0:08:17.716 --> 0:08:19.956 close to it and then not get it, you. 0:08:19.916 --> 0:08:24.756 Know, Yeah, having a zoom audition. That's it's you and 0:08:25.596 --> 0:08:29.556 Martin Scorsese and the cap I mean, that's that's heady. 0:08:30.036 --> 0:08:31.796 Yeah, it was. It was a lot, man, it was 0:08:31.836 --> 0:08:32.196 a lot. 0:08:32.356 --> 0:08:33.636 Does he walk you through it? 0:08:33.756 --> 0:08:37.196 Not really, you just start reading. That was that and 0:08:37.276 --> 0:08:41.036 I sort of I thought to myself, I need to 0:08:41.156 --> 0:08:45.876 just do things and not be anything. And that was 0:08:45.876 --> 0:08:48.876 what helped me more once I got on the set. 0:08:49.156 --> 0:08:51.996 You know, somehow through the process of trying to figure 0:08:51.996 --> 0:08:56.516 out what to do, I landed on the idea that 0:08:56.956 --> 0:08:59.676 self awareness was the enemy. And if you spend any 0:08:59.716 --> 0:09:02.676 time or any energy thinking does this look right? What 0:09:02.716 --> 0:09:04.916 do I look like? What do I sound like? Then 0:09:04.956 --> 0:09:07.036 that's going to take you out of the moment. So 0:09:07.116 --> 0:09:11.356 I was there thinking, don't focus on anything except the 0:09:11.396 --> 0:09:14.676 conversation that you're having with Ernest, not with Leo. It 0:09:14.716 --> 0:09:17.516 doesn't matter that it's Leo. It just it's Ernest right 0:09:17.516 --> 0:09:20.876 now and you're not Jason or Bill, and that's what's happening. 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:23.956 And so that's what I did. I just tried to 0:09:24.036 --> 0:09:26.436 do that. I think the accent helped me a whole lot. 0:09:27.036 --> 0:09:29.956 I think the fact that you know, I had sort 0:09:29.956 --> 0:09:34.356 of adopted certain mannerisms of people that I grew up 0:09:34.356 --> 0:09:37.636 around in Alabama. You know, in my mind, Bill was 0:09:37.716 --> 0:09:42.356 kind of like a building contractor, you know, somebody who 0:09:42.396 --> 0:09:47.276 wanted to look like a big deal but necessarily wasn't, 0:09:47.476 --> 0:09:49.916 you know, the most confident person on the inside. 0:09:50.396 --> 0:09:51.636 Yeah, And I just. 0:09:51.556 --> 0:09:53.596 Played it like that. I just thought, you know, I'm 0:09:53.636 --> 0:09:55.676 this guy that my dad didn't like when I was 0:09:55.756 --> 0:09:58.076 eight years old because he was, you know, wearing a 0:09:58.116 --> 0:10:00.956 fur coat at the football field. I'm that, you know, 0:10:01.396 --> 0:10:02.716 I'm a peacock. Yeah. 0:10:02.756 --> 0:10:04.716 Bill wasn't quite trying to fit in with what was 0:10:04.756 --> 0:10:06.276 going on around, of anything going on around. 0:10:06.396 --> 0:10:07.716 Yeah. No, ultimately in. 0:10:07.676 --> 0:10:10.836 The best way. I mean more, you know, clearly had 0:10:10.836 --> 0:10:12.196 the moral high ground. 0:10:11.996 --> 0:10:14.796 Probably, but we don't know, you know, we don't know 0:10:14.956 --> 0:10:19.596 because I think that's another point that the movie makes 0:10:19.756 --> 0:10:23.996 is that you know, you're giving the evidence that you know, 0:10:24.276 --> 0:10:28.636 Ernest and Hale, these people are bad people doing bad things. 0:10:28.716 --> 0:10:31.636 But with some of the tercier characters, especially like Beal, 0:10:32.396 --> 0:10:35.556 you don't ever really know, you know, if he's there 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:39.596 purely out of good motivations, or if he's there to 0:10:39.676 --> 0:10:43.556 do the same thing that they're doing. And I sort 0:10:43.556 --> 0:10:48.836 of started seeing this as a real gift because uncertain 0:10:49.236 --> 0:10:52.156 is a lot more interesting to me, you know, as 0:10:52.396 --> 0:10:56.556 a as an entertainer, performer, artist, whatever. I like to 0:10:57.236 --> 0:10:59.996 figure out what I'm talking about as I'm going, you know, 0:10:59.996 --> 0:11:02.596 when I'm writing a song or anything, or playing a 0:11:02.636 --> 0:11:06.996 solo or whatever. So with Bill, I kind of thought 0:11:06.996 --> 0:11:09.036 to myself, well, the audience is not going to know 0:11:09.876 --> 0:11:13.436 exactly if my motivations are pure or not, so I 0:11:13.476 --> 0:11:15.956 don't have to know that either, you know, if I 0:11:16.116 --> 0:11:20.676 deliver a shadowy character to them, then that's what they're 0:11:20.676 --> 0:11:22.076 going to take from it. And at the end of 0:11:22.116 --> 0:11:23.716 the movie, I had so many people that watch the 0:11:23.756 --> 0:11:27.756 movie saying, you know, was Bill a good guy or 0:11:27.796 --> 0:11:30.396 bad guy? Did he murder his first wife and marry 0:11:30.436 --> 0:11:33.316 her sister or did bad things just happen to him? 0:11:33.756 --> 0:11:36.356 And I don't know, I didn't even consider that as 0:11:36.396 --> 0:11:37.036 a possibility. 0:11:37.316 --> 0:11:39.476 Ordered the first wife, Yeah, I saw the same movie 0:11:39.516 --> 0:11:44.076 you did, maybe maybe not, you know, yeah, but wasting 0:11:44.156 --> 0:11:47.756 illness that didn't hold up for very long. You know, 0:11:47.796 --> 0:11:51.076 you don't hear people dying of wasting illness now. So 0:11:51.116 --> 0:11:54.036 it's kind of like, if I had to bet money 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:56.676 on it. I would say that, yeah, Bill probably did 0:11:57.236 --> 0:11:59.436 kill his first wife and then marry her sister to 0:11:59.516 --> 0:12:04.276 keep those same landrights in his name, and that's probably 0:12:04.356 --> 0:12:08.756 why his character ernest word so at all. It's you know, 0:12:09.116 --> 0:12:10.956 I was in my mind the way I was playing 0:12:10.996 --> 0:12:13.796 it was because we're both conning me and we're just 0:12:13.836 --> 0:12:19.036 not working together. And nobody hates more than that dynamic. 0:12:19.276 --> 0:12:21.876 You know, Yes, what was it like to play this 0:12:21.916 --> 0:12:22.796 scene where you're dying? 0:12:23.036 --> 0:12:25.356 That was tough. That was tough. I tried to like 0:12:25.796 --> 0:12:27.996 get out of having to go full on, you know. 0:12:28.716 --> 0:12:31.596 And like, right before we started to shoot, I was like, 0:12:31.636 --> 0:12:34.036 so I'm in shock, right, you know. I'm talking to Adam, 0:12:34.116 --> 0:12:37.876 the assistant director, and I'm like, I'm playing this like 0:12:37.916 --> 0:12:40.196 I'm in shock. I'm not feeling all of this. I 0:12:40.276 --> 0:12:42.036 just got blown off. I don't really know what's going on. 0:12:42.156 --> 0:12:44.156 Adam was like, yeah, sure, whatever, And then it occurred 0:12:44.156 --> 0:12:46.396 to me, Adam doesn't give a fuck. Adam's trying to 0:12:46.396 --> 0:12:49.156 get everybody where they're supposed to be. He didn't care. 0:12:49.476 --> 0:12:51.716 So I get down there and the first time I'm 0:12:51.756 --> 0:12:53.636 kind of like taking it easy, and then I hear 0:12:53.716 --> 0:12:56.996 Marty over the fucking walkie talkie's like you're on a ten, 0:12:57.316 --> 0:12:59.356 you are on a tea. You're feeling every bit of this. 0:12:59.476 --> 0:13:01.556 And I was like, shit, now I have to really 0:13:01.596 --> 0:13:04.876 embarrass myself, you know. So I did about three more 0:13:04.916 --> 0:13:07.396 takes where I was just screaming my head off, and 0:13:07.676 --> 0:13:12.476 you know, luckily I was comfortable because I had played 0:13:12.476 --> 0:13:16.156 a show in Salt Lake City on Friday night, and 0:13:16.196 --> 0:13:19.276 then I flew on a private right after I got 0:13:19.276 --> 0:13:22.836 off stage to Oklahoma to rehearse Saturday morning at eight am. 0:13:23.076 --> 0:13:25.036 And then after the rehearsal, I got back on that 0:13:25.156 --> 0:13:27.636 jet and went to Red Rocks and played two nights 0:13:27.676 --> 0:13:31.236 at Red Rocks in Colorado, and then came back to 0:13:31.316 --> 0:13:34.076 Oklahoma to shoot the scene. So I had been up 0:13:34.316 --> 0:13:38.116 all weekend. I played three shows and rehearsed that scene, 0:13:38.756 --> 0:13:41.436 and then you know, it's late at night, and the 0:13:41.516 --> 0:13:45.436 makeup just took forever, so much makeup, and you can't 0:13:46.076 --> 0:13:50.556 touch your face, like I accidentally scratched my forehead. You know, 0:13:50.796 --> 0:13:53.956 everything was itching. And I did this one time and 0:13:54.156 --> 0:13:57.996 oh my god, the Swiss makeup guy was all over me. 0:13:58.076 --> 0:14:00.276 He's like, you cannot touch your face, You cannot touch 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:02.916 your face. You know, it's like, shit, I'm just gonna 0:14:02.916 --> 0:14:05.356 have to itch, you know. And it had taken up 0:14:05.356 --> 0:14:07.556 hours to put it on. And then at one point 0:14:07.596 --> 0:14:11.276 he says, okay, so other movies the blood goes around 0:14:11.276 --> 0:14:14.276 the eye, but in Marty's movies, the blood goes in 0:14:14.396 --> 0:14:17.836 the eye. And I was like, all right, let's fucking 0:14:17.916 --> 0:14:19.636 do it, you know. So I just held my eye 0:14:19.676 --> 0:14:22.356 open and he squirted it right on the eyeball. You know, 0:14:23.356 --> 0:14:23.996 do you even know what this? 0:14:24.036 --> 0:14:24.436 Stuffs me? 0:14:24.916 --> 0:14:28.436 No, no clue and no idea, you know. And I'm 0:14:28.556 --> 0:14:31.836 laying down like in the house, you know, which was 0:14:31.956 --> 0:14:33.716 the house that we had filmed in. The house had 0:14:33.756 --> 0:14:36.196 been there for one hundred years and then they took 0:14:36.236 --> 0:14:38.236 it down. But I'm laying there. They're sticking all this 0:14:38.276 --> 0:14:40.756 stuff in me and piling more like wood on top 0:14:40.796 --> 0:14:43.156 of my body. And the shot is one of the 0:14:43.316 --> 0:14:46.316 Scorsese tracking shots, you know, where he comes in and 0:14:46.396 --> 0:14:48.716 weaves around the house until it gets to the side 0:14:48.716 --> 0:14:51.716 of my faith beautiful shot, I mean, one of his 0:14:51.916 --> 0:14:54.996 real signature moves. You know. When I found out it 0:14:55.036 --> 0:14:56.636 was that kind of shot, I was like, holy shit, 0:14:56.716 --> 0:14:59.236 I get to be the focal point of one of 0:14:59.236 --> 0:15:02.436 those shots is amazing, but shots that goes back to 0:15:02.796 --> 0:15:06.716 meanstreak exactly. Yeah, something that he started doing at the 0:15:06.756 --> 0:15:10.156 beginning of his career and perfect it early, and that's 0:15:10.156 --> 0:15:12.796 how you feel like you're in his universe, you know. 0:15:13.796 --> 0:15:16.756 But it was super humid, and it was late and 0:15:17.236 --> 0:15:22.516 summertime in Oklahoma, and between takes, if I closed my eye, 0:15:22.556 --> 0:15:26.116 it would stay shut because that fake blood would kind 0:15:26.156 --> 0:15:29.676 of coagulate a little bit, and so I couldn't move 0:15:29.716 --> 0:15:32.996 my arms because they were under all that wood and debris, 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:36.436 and so when they would call action, I would have 0:15:36.476 --> 0:15:39.876 to sort of start the process of peeling my eye 0:15:39.916 --> 0:15:43.796 open without using my hands at all, because my eyes 0:15:43.836 --> 0:15:45.756 had to be open when the camera got to me. 0:15:45.876 --> 0:15:48.916 So I was laying there screaming while I was trying 0:15:48.956 --> 0:15:51.876 to open my eye, and I wound up not having 0:15:51.916 --> 0:15:56.556 to act necessarily as much because it was so uncomfortable 0:15:56.596 --> 0:15:59.796 that it was a little bit easier to just scream 0:15:59.836 --> 0:16:02.556 like you're in pain and pissed off and terrified. 0:16:02.716 --> 0:16:05.316 You know. Wow, Man, it was hard. 0:16:05.396 --> 0:16:07.956 It was really hard because I'd never done anything like that, 0:16:08.116 --> 0:16:10.276 and it was like, I think it took us four takes, 0:16:10.316 --> 0:16:12.596 which I was pretty happy about it didn't take all night. 0:16:12.796 --> 0:16:15.756 So I don't know that that's a predicament. Too many 0:16:15.836 --> 0:16:18.516 actors have really been in to have been blown up. 0:16:18.916 --> 0:16:21.436 I mean, you know, like sure in a action flick 0:16:21.476 --> 0:16:23.356 in the eighties, like plenty of people got blown up, 0:16:23.356 --> 0:16:25.556 but you get blown up off the shot and you're 0:16:25.556 --> 0:16:27.796 just kind of not seen again. But then to have 0:16:27.876 --> 0:16:29.836 to act like you're blown up and then you have 0:16:29.916 --> 0:16:31.876 to act, I don't know who else is really. I'm 0:16:31.876 --> 0:16:32.516 sure it's happened. 0:16:32.916 --> 0:16:35.356 Yeah, it happens, but not a lot. Yeah, not a lot, 0:16:35.516 --> 0:16:38.916 especially in a movie that's worth a shit. You know. 0:16:39.236 --> 0:16:41.156 Sure there's a lot of people in Robocough that are 0:16:41.196 --> 0:16:44.436 that way, but in a Scorsese movie, and you know, 0:16:44.716 --> 0:16:47.556 I had to really do it. But there's something about 0:16:47.596 --> 0:16:51.596 the way he handled the death scenes in that movie. 0:16:52.276 --> 0:16:54.156 He's done this in a lot of other ones too. 0:16:54.316 --> 0:16:59.236 It's very brief, and while it's really graphic and really disturbing, 0:16:59.756 --> 0:17:03.116 he doesn't wallow in it. It's not pandering. He's not 0:17:03.356 --> 0:17:08.196 using that to manipulate the audience. It's like, pop, somebody's dead, 0:17:08.356 --> 0:17:10.676 they fall down. That's the scene. I want you to 0:17:10.716 --> 0:17:13.356 have that information. I gave you that information, let's move on, 0:17:13.716 --> 0:17:16.916 you know, And there were so many things I noticed 0:17:17.036 --> 0:17:20.996 watching the movie a couple times after it was all done, 0:17:21.596 --> 0:17:25.116 you know, where he was sort of untangling the cliches 0:17:25.236 --> 0:17:28.396 and the myths of how Native people have been treated 0:17:28.436 --> 0:17:31.356 in Westerns in the past, you know, and like, if 0:17:31.356 --> 0:17:34.716 you notice, almost all the women that are being murdered 0:17:34.716 --> 0:17:37.876 in this movie, something happens with their scalp, their scalp 0:17:37.996 --> 0:17:39.836 comes off or they get it cut off in a 0:17:40.316 --> 0:17:43.996 field autopsy, which to me was like a very clear 0:17:44.116 --> 0:17:47.676 nod to you know, saying that the Natives would scalp 0:17:47.876 --> 0:17:50.756 us white people and all of those John Wayne movies 0:17:50.796 --> 0:17:54.316 and forward Westerns and everything. And then like the first 0:17:54.356 --> 0:17:57.476 scene where they're smoking the death pipe and they're smoking 0:17:57.516 --> 0:18:00.276 their way of life. You know, they're giving like basically 0:18:00.356 --> 0:18:02.956 a funeral for their way of life once they found 0:18:02.956 --> 0:18:06.356 the oil. You know, that's also kind of a reversal 0:18:06.436 --> 0:18:09.876 of the whole idea of the peace pipe. And you 0:18:09.916 --> 0:18:14.556 know what you would normally expect a Native burial ceremony 0:18:14.596 --> 0:18:18.076 to be, Like, it's like they're burying their era and 0:18:18.716 --> 0:18:21.636 their way of existing. There's so many of those beautiful 0:18:21.636 --> 0:18:23.436 things where I'm like, oh, I see what he used 0:18:23.436 --> 0:18:25.876 to do, and he's just reversing the script and showing 0:18:25.876 --> 0:18:27.716 you a little bit more of what it was really like. 0:18:29.116 --> 0:18:30.756 We're going to take a quick break and then come 0:18:30.756 --> 0:18:38.076 back with more of a conversation with Jason Isbell. We're 0:18:38.116 --> 0:18:41.836 back with more from Jason Isbell to your point about 0:18:41.836 --> 0:18:45.236 the reversals that he was sort of including in the movie. 0:18:45.596 --> 0:18:47.676 There were people were pretty upset about it, and I 0:18:47.676 --> 0:18:49.556 guess you shouldn't be surprising, but I mean, given the 0:18:49.716 --> 0:18:53.476 level of art that was displayed, I don't know how 0:18:53.476 --> 0:18:56.676 you can take umbrage with his storytelling, yeah, or what 0:18:56.716 --> 0:19:00.316 he was trying to do, even in terms of subverting 0:19:00.316 --> 0:19:01.956 the history of cinema. 0:19:01.476 --> 0:19:05.956 Right right, I can see it if you're triggered, if 0:19:05.956 --> 0:19:09.476 you have like generational trauma and watching these things happened 0:19:09.516 --> 0:19:12.596 to indigenous people is triggering to you. That makes total 0:19:12.636 --> 0:19:16.476 sense to me. You know, it's not a criticism that 0:19:16.556 --> 0:19:18.476 I would levy at the movie, because I would have 0:19:18.516 --> 0:19:21.876 no reason to. But when somebody does, I can't argue 0:19:21.876 --> 0:19:24.476 with that. I'm like, yeah, that makes sense to me. 0:19:24.556 --> 0:19:27.556 It would be really hard to see, especially the way 0:19:28.716 --> 0:19:32.956 a lot of Native cultures handle you know, ancestry and 0:19:32.996 --> 0:19:37.436 their forebears and sort of take you know, spiritually that 0:19:37.916 --> 0:19:40.076 weight on in a way that the rest of us 0:19:40.196 --> 0:19:42.916 might not I understand. But as far as from a 0:19:42.956 --> 0:19:47.596 storytelling perspective, it's hard for me to see any flaws. 0:19:48.036 --> 0:19:50.396 And I met more people who were calling the storytelling 0:19:50.436 --> 0:19:50.876 like woke. 0:19:51.156 --> 0:19:53.676 Oh yeah, I don't know about it. If you use 0:19:53.756 --> 0:19:56.876 that word that I turn off. I'm clocked out. You know, 0:19:56.956 --> 0:19:58.996 if you're using that in that way, if you're not 0:19:59.276 --> 0:20:01.796 Donald Glover and you're talking about being woke, that I 0:20:01.836 --> 0:20:05.636 am not paying attention to you anymore. That is pretty 0:20:06.076 --> 0:20:09.116 incredible to me to imagine how somebody can see something 0:20:09.516 --> 0:20:15.236 so historically accurate and handled with such respect for what 0:20:15.396 --> 0:20:18.156 actually happened. But you know, there's a reason we hadn't 0:20:18.156 --> 0:20:21.556 already know this story, and you know, it had to 0:20:21.596 --> 0:20:25.476 be intentional like that. That had to be done intentionally 0:20:26.276 --> 0:20:28.516 or we would have all learned it in the sixth grade, 0:20:28.796 --> 0:20:31.196 you know, and even people out there in Oklahoma did 0:20:31.596 --> 0:20:34.596 they didn't know this stuff had happened. And I mean, 0:20:34.756 --> 0:20:37.076 you know, with what was going on in Tulsa with 0:20:37.156 --> 0:20:40.356 black businesses in Tulsa, you know, is this all happened 0:20:40.396 --> 0:20:42.996 at the same time. So there were black folks coming 0:20:42.996 --> 0:20:47.156 from Tulsa to Bartlesville and paul Huska to get away from, 0:20:47.556 --> 0:20:49.796 you know, the massacre that was happening over there, and 0:20:49.836 --> 0:20:52.996 they were hiding out around the osage who had their 0:20:52.996 --> 0:20:54.116 own shit to deal with. 0:20:54.476 --> 0:20:56.436