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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: The last couple of years have been huge for Jason Isbel.

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Speaker 2: The Alabama born singer songwriter's latest album, Weather Vans, won

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Speaker 2: the Grammy for Best Americana Album this year. He also

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Speaker 2: snagged a role in Martin scor says He's Killers of

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Speaker 2: the Flower Moon, which is up for Best Picture at

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Speaker 2: this year's Oscars. Then there was a critically acclaimed HBO

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Speaker 2: documentary released last year about the making of Isabel's previous album, Reunions,

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Speaker 2: that also put his personal life on display warts and all.

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Speaker 2: On today's episode, I've talked to Jason Isbel about the

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Speaker 2: exhilarating experience of filming Killers of the Flower Moon and

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Speaker 2: how he prepared to act in scenes opposite Leonardo DiCaprio.

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Speaker 2: Heads up, if you haven't seen the movie yet, one

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Speaker 2: you should and two there's definitely major spoilers in our conversation,

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Speaker 2: so just know that going in. Jason also contemplates how

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Speaker 2: old right about the dissolution of his marriage and why

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Speaker 2: he struggles to write a balls out rock song. This

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Speaker 2: is broken record liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin, Mitchmill.

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Speaker 2: Here's my conversation with Jason Isbel. Hey, how are you man.

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Speaker 1: I'm doing well. Thanks, having a good day, how about yourself?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do it, having a good day, having a good day.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: We met at Shangri Lock with your manager Tracy Rick,

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Speaker 2: like twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's been a little while. Yeah, it's been a

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Speaker 1: little while. That was a good day though. Once I

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Speaker 1: got out of the car, I know that takes a

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Speaker 1: long time to get out there from LA.

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Speaker 2: It's a long drive. And I think you had been

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Speaker 2: rehearsing for with Mayvas Staples maybe or to do something

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Speaker 2: with Mayvus that day.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it was. It was Mayvs's eightieth birthday. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did all three of those. I did one in La,

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Speaker 1: one in Chicago, and one in New York that year.

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Speaker 2: That's amazing. Yeah, that's amazing.

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Speaker 1: You gotta do you know, it's Mayvas, whatever Mavis is.

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Speaker 1: You just say yes and go do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Time is flying, man, But I'm glad we still have

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Speaker 2: some legends like her around.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no doubt, So no doubt. And will I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, really WILLI is still kicking man, still out

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Speaker 1: doing show. He says, unbelievable. I think Willie. The thing

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Speaker 1: that gives me about him is like, you know, people

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Speaker 1: always say when you talk about like political stuff, that

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Speaker 1: you're going to run off half of your audience. But

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Speaker 1: I think unless you're Willie Nelson, you don't have an

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Speaker 1: audience that is made up of every different type of person.

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Speaker 2: Why do you think that, I mean, is it just

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Speaker 2: because the decades he's been at it.

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Speaker 1: I think it's part of what he does, you know.

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Speaker 1: I think it's the way he writes songs and the

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Speaker 1: way he performs. And yeah, also it's the fact that

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Speaker 1: he's been doing this for nearly eight decades now, you know,

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Speaker 1: because then people sort of see you as more of

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Speaker 1: an institution than just a personality, and they figure that

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Speaker 1: Willie's weather a whole lot of different kinds of storms.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, because I guess certainly early in his career

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Speaker 2: he alienated the traditional country establishment early, so I guess

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Speaker 2: he's gone through those various times of alienating this potential

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Speaker 2: fan base in that one to rive at the place

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Speaker 2: I guess not too themlike Snoop where it's kind.

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Speaker 1: Of right, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Probably why they

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Speaker 1: get along so well that one other reason. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you're right at a certain point, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you're that much of a legend. You're you're just

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Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, more of a piece at

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Speaker 1: the fabric of cultural society rather than just an individual

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Speaker 1: trying to do a job.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, not to butter you up, but it seems like

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Speaker 2: you're inching. Like the way your career has gone from

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Speaker 2: being a really incredible guitarist, great songwriter to probably an

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Speaker 2: even better songwriter and actor.

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Speaker 1: And it's a lot. It's been a lot, you know,

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Speaker 1: It's been really nice. The opportunities have been good ones,

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Speaker 1: and I felt like I've gotten to do it at

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Speaker 1: a pace for the most part, at a pace that

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Speaker 1: I'm comfortable with. And I'm forty five now, so it's

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Speaker 1: not like all of a sudden I'm gonna be shocked

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Speaker 1: by the pitfalls of celebrity. It's just like it's not

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Speaker 1: really gonna bother me much. Just boy it, you know.

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Speaker 1: So I'm happy that things are going the way they are.

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Speaker 1: It's been a really nice few years.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to talk about music before we talked

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Speaker 2: about that. Because of The Flower Moon floored me. The script,

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Speaker 2: the acting, the way it was assembled and your acting

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Speaker 2: was like who knew.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't know that was what was going to happen.

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Speaker 1: I thought when I got there, I thought I could

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Speaker 1: really screw this all up, you know, and they could

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Speaker 1: send me home. But I do feel like at every

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Speaker 1: stage people were working on that movie in a way

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Speaker 1: that I think they were more invested with telling that

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Speaker 1: story than they would have been in just in a people.

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Speaker 1: And you could sense that from you know, craft services,

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Speaker 1: to hair and make up, all the way up to

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Speaker 1: Marty and his ads. It's like everybody there had a

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Speaker 1: purpose that was beyond just making a good movie. And

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Speaker 1: that kind of atmosphere really helped me do something that

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Speaker 1: I didn't know if I could do or not. And

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Speaker 1: then the other actress on set were so gracious with

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Speaker 1: their time. I would just say what do I do here,

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Speaker 1: you know, and they would tell me, well, here's what

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Speaker 1: I would do, So you would just ask, oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: straight up. And I told him that from the start,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I don't have any training with this.

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Speaker 1: I've never acted in anything before, done some voice over

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Speaker 1: stuff and played myself in a couple of things, but

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Speaker 1: never really acted. And I said, I'm just going to

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Speaker 1: go ask people what to do, and then I will

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Speaker 1: try my best to do that. And I think that

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Speaker 1: was kind of refreshing for you know, Ellen, casting director

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Speaker 1: and some of the producers and stuff, because they're like,

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Speaker 1: all right, well we can work.

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Speaker 2: With that coachable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, very highly, highly coachable. That was not mo for

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Speaker 1: that whole process. But the four women who were playing

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Speaker 1: the Osage sisters were extremely helpful to me because they

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Speaker 1: would come up and say, who do we know in

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Speaker 1: this room? What did we do this morning before this

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Speaker 1: scene started, how was there night last night, and just

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Speaker 1: kind of things that would get me in the headspace

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Speaker 1: of character rather than think about the details of Oh

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Speaker 1: my god, did I do my bow tie right? You know.

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Speaker 1: That was super helpful and there was a high standard

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Speaker 1: of expectation I think, but at the same time, everybody

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Speaker 1: understood that, you know, I was not a professional actor,

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Speaker 1: and they sort of helped me get to the point

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Speaker 1: where I felt comfortable.

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Speaker 2: Your role literally quite literally changed from the one that

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Speaker 2: you were offered to the one that you wound up playing,

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Speaker 2: which was Bill Smith.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So what point did you realize you were going to

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Speaker 2: have a scene basically going head to head with Leonardo DiCaprio.

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Speaker 1: Well, I had to read that scene as part of

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Speaker 1: my audition, because at first you know, I had been

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Speaker 1: offered some like smaller cameo roles, and I just went

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Speaker 1: back and studied as hard as I could, got as

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Speaker 1: much information on the story and from David's book the

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Speaker 1: source material, and then went back and watched all of

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Speaker 1: his library of Congress readings and Q and A's and

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Speaker 1: found all the public record documentation on everybody after the

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Speaker 1: end of the movie that they were telling, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then finally I'm just on this laptop in my

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Speaker 1: room and there's Leo and Marty on zoom on zoom. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it was height of the pandemic, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm just the hair and I kind of slipped my

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Speaker 1: hair back and put on a brown shirt that looked

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Speaker 1: like it could have existed a one hundred years ago.

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Speaker 1: I think it was viz Vim was what I was wearing,

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Speaker 1: because it was the closest, closest I had to one

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Speaker 1: hundred year old Oklahoma shirt, you know, And just wound

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Speaker 1: up doing that like at home on my what was it,

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Speaker 1: forty first, forty second birthday thing, and yeah, so it

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Speaker 1: was I was terrified. I was terrified, but I was

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Speaker 1: also determined, you know, I didn't want to get that

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Speaker 1: close to it and then not get it, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, having a zoom audition. That's it's you and

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Speaker 2: Martin Scorsese and the cap I mean, that's that's heady.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was a lot, man, it was

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Speaker 1: a lot.

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Speaker 2: Does he walk you through it?

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Speaker 1: Not really, you just start reading. That was that and

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Speaker 1: I sort of I thought to myself, I need to

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Speaker 1: just do things and not be anything. And that was

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Speaker 1: what helped me more once I got on the set.

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Speaker 1: You know, somehow through the process of trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out what to do, I landed on the idea that

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Speaker 1: self awareness was the enemy. And if you spend any

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Speaker 1: time or any energy thinking does this look right? What

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Speaker 1: do I look like? What do I sound like? Then

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Speaker 1: that's going to take you out of the moment. So

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Speaker 1: I was there thinking, don't focus on anything except the

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Speaker 1: conversation that you're having with Ernest, not with Leo. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter that it's Leo. It just it's Ernest right

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Speaker 1: now and you're not Jason or Bill, and that's what's happening.

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Speaker 1: And so that's what I did. I just tried to

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Speaker 1: do that. I think the accent helped me a whole lot.

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Speaker 1: I think the fact that you know, I had sort

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Speaker 1: of adopted certain mannerisms of people that I grew up

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Speaker 1: around in Alabama. You know, in my mind, Bill was

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Speaker 1: kind of like a building contractor, you know, somebody who

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Speaker 1: wanted to look like a big deal but necessarily wasn't,

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Speaker 1: you know, the most confident person on the inside.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I just.

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Speaker 1: Played it like that. I just thought, you know, I'm

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Speaker 1: this guy that my dad didn't like when I was

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Speaker 1: eight years old because he was, you know, wearing a

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Speaker 1: fur coat at the football field. I'm that, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm a peacock. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Bill wasn't quite trying to fit in with what was

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Speaker 2: going on around, of anything going on around.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. No, ultimately in.

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Speaker 2: The best way. I mean more, you know, clearly had

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Speaker 2: the moral high ground.

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Speaker 1: Probably, but we don't know, you know, we don't know

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Speaker 1: because I think that's another point that the movie makes

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Speaker 1: is that you know, you're giving the evidence that you know,

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Speaker 1: Ernest and Hale, these people are bad people doing bad things.

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Speaker 1: But with some of the tercier characters, especially like Beal,

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Speaker 1: you don't ever really know, you know, if he's there

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Speaker 1: purely out of good motivations, or if he's there to

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Speaker 1: do the same thing that they're doing. And I sort

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Speaker 1: of started seeing this as a real gift because uncertain

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Speaker 1: is a lot more interesting to me, you know, as

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Speaker 1: a as an entertainer, performer, artist, whatever. I like to

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Speaker 1: figure out what I'm talking about as I'm going, you know,

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Speaker 1: when I'm writing a song or anything, or playing a

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Speaker 1: solo or whatever. So with Bill, I kind of thought

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Speaker 1: to myself, well, the audience is not going to know

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Speaker 1: exactly if my motivations are pure or not, so I

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Speaker 1: don't have to know that either, you know, if I

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Speaker 1: deliver a shadowy character to them, then that's what they're

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Speaker 1: going to take from it. And at the end of

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Speaker 1: the movie, I had so many people that watch the

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Speaker 1: movie saying, you know, was Bill a good guy or

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Speaker 1: bad guy? Did he murder his first wife and marry

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Speaker 1: her sister or did bad things just happen to him?

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Speaker 2: And I don't know, I didn't even consider that as

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Speaker 2: a possibility.

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Speaker 1: Ordered the first wife, Yeah, I saw the same movie

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Speaker 1: you did, maybe maybe not, you know, yeah, but wasting

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Speaker 1: illness that didn't hold up for very long. You know,

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Speaker 1: you don't hear people dying of wasting illness now. So

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Speaker 1: it's kind of like, if I had to bet money

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Speaker 1: on it. I would say that, yeah, Bill probably did

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Speaker 1: kill his first wife and then marry her sister to

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Speaker 1: keep those same landrights in his name, and that's probably

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Speaker 1: why his character ernest word so at all. It's you know,

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Speaker 1: I was in my mind the way I was playing

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Speaker 1: it was because we're both conning me and we're just

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Speaker 1: not working together. And nobody hates more than that dynamic.

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Speaker 2: You know, Yes, what was it like to play this

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Speaker 2: scene where you're dying?

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Speaker 1: That was tough. That was tough. I tried to like

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Speaker 1: get out of having to go full on, you know.

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Speaker 1: And like, right before we started to shoot, I was like,

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Speaker 1: so I'm in shock, right, you know. I'm talking to Adam,

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Speaker 1: the assistant director, and I'm like, I'm playing this like

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Speaker 1: I'm in shock. I'm not feeling all of this. I

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Speaker 1: just got blown off. I don't really know what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Adam was like, yeah, sure, whatever, And then it occurred

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Speaker 1: to me, Adam doesn't give a fuck. Adam's trying to

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Speaker 1: get everybody where they're supposed to be. He didn't care.

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Speaker 1: So I get down there and the first time I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of like taking it easy, and then I hear

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Speaker 1: Marty over the fucking walkie talkie's like you're on a ten,

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Speaker 1: you are on a tea. You're feeling every bit of this.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, shit, now I have to really

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Speaker 1: embarrass myself, you know. So I did about three more

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Speaker 1: takes where I was just screaming my head off, and

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Speaker 1: you know, luckily I was comfortable because I had played

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Speaker 1: a show in Salt Lake City on Friday night, and

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Speaker 1: then I flew on a private right after I got

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Speaker 1: off stage to Oklahoma to rehearse Saturday morning at eight am.

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Speaker 1: And then after the rehearsal, I got back on that

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Speaker 1: jet and went to Red Rocks and played two nights

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Speaker 1: at Red Rocks in Colorado, and then came back to

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Speaker 1: Oklahoma to shoot the scene. So I had been up

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Speaker 1: all weekend. I played three shows and rehearsed that scene,

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Speaker 1: and then you know, it's late at night, and the

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Speaker 1: makeup just took forever, so much makeup, and you can't

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Speaker 1: touch your face, like I accidentally scratched my forehead. You know,

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Speaker 1: everything was itching. And I did this one time and

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Speaker 1: oh my god, the Swiss makeup guy was all over me.

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Speaker 1: He's like, you cannot touch your face, You cannot touch

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Speaker 1: your face. You know, it's like, shit, I'm just gonna

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Speaker 1: have to itch, you know. And it had taken up

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Speaker 1: hours to put it on. And then at one point

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Speaker 1: he says, okay, so other movies the blood goes around

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Speaker 1: the eye, but in Marty's movies, the blood goes in

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Speaker 1: the eye. And I was like, all right, let's fucking

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Speaker 1: do it, you know. So I just held my eye

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Speaker 1: open and he squirted it right on the eyeball. You know,

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Speaker 1: do you even know what this?

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Speaker 2: Stuffs me?

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Speaker 1: No, no clue and no idea, you know. And I'm

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Speaker 1: laying down like in the house, you know, which was

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Speaker 1: the house that we had filmed in. The house had

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Speaker 1: been there for one hundred years and then they took

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Speaker 1: it down. But I'm laying there. They're sticking all this

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Speaker 1: stuff in me and piling more like wood on top

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Speaker 1: of my body. And the shot is one of the

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Speaker 1: Scorsese tracking shots, you know, where he comes in and

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Speaker 1: weaves around the house until it gets to the side

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Speaker 1: of my faith beautiful shot, I mean, one of his

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Speaker 1: real signature moves. You know. When I found out it

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Speaker 1: was that kind of shot, I was like, holy shit,

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Speaker 1: I get to be the focal point of one of

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Speaker 1: those shots is amazing, but shots that goes back to

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Speaker 1: meanstreak exactly. Yeah, something that he started doing at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of his career and perfect it early, and that's

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Speaker 1: how you feel like you're in his universe, you know.

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Speaker 1: But it was super humid, and it was late and

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Speaker 1: summertime in Oklahoma, and between takes, if I closed my eye,

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Speaker 1: it would stay shut because that fake blood would kind

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Speaker 1: of coagulate a little bit, and so I couldn't move

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Speaker 1: my arms because they were under all that wood and debris,

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Speaker 1: and so when they would call action, I would have

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Speaker 1: to sort of start the process of peeling my eye

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Speaker 1: open without using my hands at all, because my eyes

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Speaker 1: had to be open when the camera got to me.

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Speaker 1: So I was laying there screaming while I was trying

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Speaker 1: to open my eye, and I wound up not having

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Speaker 1: to act necessarily as much because it was so uncomfortable

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Speaker 1: that it was a little bit easier to just scream

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Speaker 1: like you're in pain and pissed off and terrified.

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Speaker 2: You know. Wow, Man, it was hard.

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Speaker 1: It was really hard because I'd never done anything like that,

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Speaker 1: and it was like, I think it took us four takes,

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Speaker 1: which I was pretty happy about it didn't take all night.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know that that's a predicament. Too many

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Speaker 2: actors have really been in to have been blown up.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you know, like sure in a action flick

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Speaker 2: in the eighties, like plenty of people got blown up,

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Speaker 2: but you get blown up off the shot and you're

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Speaker 2: just kind of not seen again. But then to have

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Speaker 2: to act like you're blown up and then you have

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Speaker 2: to act, I don't know who else is really. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure it's happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it happens, but not a lot. Yeah, not a lot,

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Speaker 1: especially in a movie that's worth a shit. You know.

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Speaker 1: Sure there's a lot of people in Robocough that are

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Speaker 1: that way, but in a Scorsese movie, and you know,

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Speaker 1: I had to really do it. But there's something about

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Speaker 1: the way he handled the death scenes in that movie.

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Speaker 1: He's done this in a lot of other ones too.

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Speaker 1: It's very brief, and while it's really graphic and really disturbing,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't wallow in it. It's not pandering. He's not

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Speaker 1: using that to manipulate the audience. It's like, pop, somebody's dead,

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Speaker 1: they fall down. That's the scene. I want you to

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Speaker 1: have that information. I gave you that information, let's move on,

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Speaker 1: you know, And there were so many things I noticed

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Speaker 1: watching the movie a couple times after it was all done,

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Speaker 1: you know, where he was sort of untangling the cliches

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Speaker 1: and the myths of how Native people have been treated

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Speaker 1: in Westerns in the past, you know, and like, if

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Speaker 1: you notice, almost all the women that are being murdered

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Speaker 1: in this movie, something happens with their scalp, their scalp

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Speaker 1: comes off or they get it cut off in a

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Speaker 1: field autopsy, which to me was like a very clear

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Speaker 1: nod to you know, saying that the Natives would scalp

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Speaker 1: us white people and all of those John Wayne movies

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Speaker 1: and forward Westerns and everything. And then like the first

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Speaker 1: scene where they're smoking the death pipe and they're smoking

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Speaker 1: their way of life. You know, they're giving like basically

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Speaker 1: a funeral for their way of life once they found

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Speaker 1: the oil. You know, that's also kind of a reversal

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Speaker 1: of the whole idea of the peace pipe. And you

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Speaker 1: know what you would normally expect a Native burial ceremony

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Speaker 1: to be, Like, it's like they're burying their era and

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Speaker 1: their way of existing. There's so many of those beautiful

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Speaker 1: things where I'm like, oh, I see what he used

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Speaker 1: to do, and he's just reversing the script and showing

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Speaker 1: you a little bit more of what it was really like.

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Speaker 2: We're going to take a quick break and then come

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Speaker 2: back with more of a conversation with Jason Isbell. We're

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Speaker 2: back with more from Jason Isbell to your point about

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Speaker 2: the reversals that he was sort of including in the movie.

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Speaker 2: There were people were pretty upset about it, and I

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Speaker 2: guess you shouldn't be surprising, but I mean, given the

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Speaker 2: level of art that was displayed, I don't know how

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Speaker 2: you can take umbrage with his storytelling, yeah, or what

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Speaker 2: he was trying to do, even in terms of subverting

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Speaker 2: the history of cinema.

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Speaker 1: Right right, I can see it if you're triggered, if

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Speaker 1: you have like generational trauma and watching these things happened

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Speaker 1: to indigenous people is triggering to you. That makes total

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Speaker 1: sense to me. You know, it's not a criticism that

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Speaker 1: I would levy at the movie, because I would have

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Speaker 1: no reason to. But when somebody does, I can't argue

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Speaker 1: with that. I'm like, yeah, that makes sense to me.

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Speaker 1: It would be really hard to see, especially the way

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Speaker 1: a lot of Native cultures handle you know, ancestry and

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Speaker 1: their forebears and sort of take you know, spiritually that

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Speaker 1: weight on in a way that the rest of us

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Speaker 1: might not I understand. But as far as from a

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Speaker 1: storytelling perspective, it's hard for me to see any flaws.

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Speaker 2: And I met more people who were calling the storytelling

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Speaker 2: like woke.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I don't know about it. If you use

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Speaker 1: that word that I turn off. I'm clocked out. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you're using that in that way, if you're not

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Speaker 1: Donald Glover and you're talking about being woke, that I

385
00:20:01,836 --> 00:20:05,636
Speaker 1: am not paying attention to you anymore. That is pretty

386
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Speaker 1: incredible to me to imagine how somebody can see something

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00:20:09,516 --> 00:20:15,236
Speaker 1: so historically accurate and handled with such respect for what

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Speaker 1: actually happened. But you know, there's a reason we hadn't

389
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Speaker 1: already know this story, and you know, it had to

390
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Speaker 1: be intentional like that. That had to be done intentionally

391
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Speaker 1: or we would have all learned it in the sixth grade,

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Speaker 1: you know, and even people out there in Oklahoma did

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Speaker 1: they didn't know this stuff had happened. And I mean,

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Speaker 1: you know, with what was going on in Tulsa with

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Speaker 1: black businesses in Tulsa, you know, is this all happened

396
00:20:40,396 --> 00:20:42,996
Speaker 1: at the same time. So there were black folks coming

397
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Speaker 1: from Tulsa to Bartlesville and paul Huska to get away from,

398
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Speaker 1: you know, the massacre that was happening over there, and

399
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Speaker 1: they were hiding out around the osage who had their

400
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Speaker 1: own shit to deal with.

401
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Speaker 2: And I thought that was beautiful. Some people thought that

402
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Speaker 2: the part where King Hale sees the newsreel Forum film

403
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Speaker 2: about the Tulsa Masaca that was ham fisted.

404
00:21:04,316 --> 00:21:07,236
Speaker 1: Ham fisted by God, because that's what happened, you know,

405
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Speaker 1: that's what happened. That's what happened. And it was right

406
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Speaker 1: next door. And I mean Tulsa was an hour away,

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00:21:13,156 --> 00:21:15,356
Speaker 1: you know, I'd drive over to Tulsa to get dinner.

408
00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:17,996
Speaker 1: And then at the same time when we got there,

409
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Speaker 1: when we showed up on set, we were looking at

410
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Speaker 1: photos from the era, you know, in the costume department,

411
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Speaker 1: trying to get everything right, and they were wearing masks,

412
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Speaker 1: you know, because the flu that started in Kansas that

413
00:21:30,316 --> 00:21:34,916
Speaker 1: everybody called the Spanish flu was then it was nineteen eighteen,

414
00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:38,556
Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen, and we were all standing there in their

415
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Speaker 1: masks looking at the pictures of people wearing bandanas around

416
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Speaker 1: their face. Like, what the fuck man one hundred years later?

417
00:21:45,196 --> 00:21:49,956
Speaker 1: Exactly one hundred years later, you know. Yeah, so history

418
00:21:50,116 --> 00:21:53,596
Speaker 1: clearly repeats itself if you, you know, don't pay attention

419
00:21:53,676 --> 00:21:56,956
Speaker 1: to it, and sometimes if you do. But yeah, I

420
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Speaker 1: heard a lot of people talking about how, like Molly's character,

421
00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:05,276
Speaker 1: you know, why did she stay around so long? You know,

422
00:22:05,356 --> 00:22:07,076
Speaker 1: why did she stay with him? Why did she try

423
00:22:07,116 --> 00:22:08,676
Speaker 1: to work it out for so long? And that's one

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Speaker 1: that really bothered me because I think that shows a

425
00:22:12,076 --> 00:22:16,596
Speaker 1: really huge lack of understanding of her perspective, you know,

426
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Speaker 1: and the circumstances that had led her to that point

427
00:22:19,876 --> 00:22:23,196
Speaker 1: in her life and what her options were. It's like, well,

428
00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:25,516
Speaker 1: maybe if she didn't have to have a legal guardian

429
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Speaker 1: to take her own money out of the bank, she

430
00:22:28,036 --> 00:22:30,836
Speaker 1: wouldn't have been so motivated to stay with this asshole,

431
00:22:30,956 --> 00:22:33,556
Speaker 1: you know. But there was a lot of like real

432
00:22:34,316 --> 00:22:36,436
Speaker 1: you know, people who just weren't willing to take one

433
00:22:36,516 --> 00:22:39,476
Speaker 1: extra step to think, well, maybe that person's experience is

434
00:22:39,516 --> 00:22:40,916
Speaker 1: a little bit different than mind.

435
00:22:41,116 --> 00:22:45,116
Speaker 2: Well yeah, and also just people who you know, put

436
00:22:45,116 --> 00:22:47,876
Speaker 2: themselves in a hypothetical situation they know exactly that I.

437
00:22:47,876 --> 00:22:50,676
Speaker 1: Mean, yeah, armchair quarterbacks.

438
00:22:50,116 --> 00:22:52,156
Speaker 2: Turns out it's complicated what we did, you know, it's

439
00:22:52,196 --> 00:22:53,196
Speaker 2: not it's not simple.

440
00:22:53,316 --> 00:22:57,276
Speaker 1: There are a lot of different variables that go into

441
00:22:57,316 --> 00:22:58,836
Speaker 1: every choice that we made.

442
00:22:59,116 --> 00:23:01,436
Speaker 2: She wore those all in her face. You could see

443
00:23:01,476 --> 00:23:05,236
Speaker 2: all of the complications. What do I do? Her acting

444
00:23:05,396 --> 00:23:06,156
Speaker 2: was just beautiful.

445
00:23:06,356 --> 00:23:09,356
Speaker 1: She's unbelievable, man. And that last scene with two of them,

446
00:23:09,396 --> 00:23:11,796
Speaker 1: where all she really wanted him to do was tell

447
00:23:11,796 --> 00:23:14,876
Speaker 1: her the truth and he couldn't. Even after all that,

448
00:23:14,996 --> 00:23:17,396
Speaker 1: he couldn't. You know, She's basically just saying, do you

449
00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:22,316
Speaker 1: love me more than your fear? You know? And he

450
00:23:22,356 --> 00:23:25,476
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. And that was that. And Yeah, Lily

451
00:23:25,636 --> 00:23:28,876
Speaker 1: is really like nobody I've ever known. I mean, we

452
00:23:28,916 --> 00:23:31,996
Speaker 1: stay in touch, you know. And I saw her when

453
00:23:32,036 --> 00:23:35,556
Speaker 1: I played in Oklahoma a few weeks ago. And it's nuts, because,

454
00:23:36,436 --> 00:23:38,556
Speaker 1: you know, there have been some people like Chris Stapleton

455
00:23:38,916 --> 00:23:42,276
Speaker 1: opened for us right before his thing just went nuts,

456
00:23:42,396 --> 00:23:45,836
Speaker 1: and you know, Casey Musgraves and sturge Old. There have

457
00:23:45,876 --> 00:23:48,436
Speaker 1: been people that I've been around who were on a

458
00:23:48,476 --> 00:23:52,276
Speaker 1: real pretty steep upward trajectory. But I've never seen it

459
00:23:52,396 --> 00:23:55,916
Speaker 1: like with Lily right now, because you know, she's just

460
00:23:55,996 --> 00:23:58,356
Speaker 1: taking over the world all of a sudden and I

461
00:23:58,476 --> 00:24:01,636
Speaker 1: don't honestly don't think it's gonna change the person that

462
00:24:01,716 --> 00:24:05,356
Speaker 1: she is. And that is like, that's rare man, that's

463
00:24:05,516 --> 00:24:10,076
Speaker 1: unicorn shit right there. It just seems like she keeps

464
00:24:08,956 --> 00:24:15,036
Speaker 1: me settling more into herself as all this beautiful chaos

465
00:24:15,116 --> 00:24:17,716
Speaker 1: happens around her right now. And I think she's just

466
00:24:17,756 --> 00:24:22,436
Speaker 1: gonna use whatever sort of recognition she gets to do

467
00:24:22,556 --> 00:24:26,036
Speaker 1: cool things for other people, which is really a gift

468
00:24:26,076 --> 00:24:26,756
Speaker 1: to everybody.

469
00:24:27,436 --> 00:24:28,956
Speaker 2: Well, it's great. I mean, it seems like she's in.

470
00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:30,276
Speaker 2: Not that I can be a judge of this. I

471
00:24:30,316 --> 00:24:32,196
Speaker 2: don't act, but she seems like she's an actor in

472
00:24:32,236 --> 00:24:34,316
Speaker 2: the mold of a real actor, like a de Niro

473
00:24:34,476 --> 00:24:37,316
Speaker 2: or DiCaprio or a Pacino or the people who it's

474
00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:37,756
Speaker 2: a craft.

475
00:24:37,796 --> 00:24:38,076
Speaker 1: It's not.

476
00:24:38,156 --> 00:24:40,036
Speaker 2: I'm not in to be famous. I'm not into be

477
00:24:40,076 --> 00:24:42,636
Speaker 2: a movie star or celebrity. It's like, so what I

478
00:24:42,676 --> 00:24:44,556
Speaker 2: do and it's just gonna get better and better.

479
00:24:44,356 --> 00:24:48,956
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's serious and the work itself is the reward,

480
00:24:49,116 --> 00:24:51,636
Speaker 1: you know. And like that was something that surprises me

481
00:24:51,676 --> 00:24:55,276
Speaker 1: about Leo, because I mean, dude is very, very famous

482
00:24:55,316 --> 00:24:57,476
Speaker 1: and he has been since he was a little kid,

483
00:24:57,556 --> 00:25:01,236
Speaker 1: and that man works hard. He was out there all

484
00:25:01,316 --> 00:25:04,796
Speaker 1: day every day, first call, you know, usually last to leave,

485
00:25:05,556 --> 00:25:08,156
Speaker 1: you know this, ninety five degrees and we're all in

486
00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:10,876
Speaker 1: tweed suits and he's out there all day and if

487
00:25:10,876 --> 00:25:13,236
Speaker 1: he gets half an hour, he runs back to his

488
00:25:13,276 --> 00:25:15,356
Speaker 1: trailer and takes a nap and comes back out there

489
00:25:15,396 --> 00:25:17,636
Speaker 1: and it gets back to work. Because I was very impressed.

490
00:25:17,676 --> 00:25:20,436
Speaker 1: You know, it can't be the money that's motivating him

491
00:25:20,436 --> 00:25:23,036
Speaker 1: at this point, because you don't have enough time left

492
00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:23,876
Speaker 1: to count, you know.

493
00:25:23,996 --> 00:25:26,716
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right. Well, I could talk to you about

494
00:25:26,756 --> 00:25:28,516
Speaker 2: this film forever because it's so good, but we should

495
00:25:28,516 --> 00:25:30,476
Speaker 2: talk about music and maybe we can listen to something

496
00:25:30,516 --> 00:25:33,316
Speaker 2: real quick before all right, ok, before we make a switch?

497
00:25:44,996 --> 00:25:46,316
Speaker 2: Where the fuck did this come from?

498
00:25:46,356 --> 00:25:49,676
Speaker 1: Man? This is Kevin Kenny. We did this tribute to

499
00:25:50,076 --> 00:25:54,356
Speaker 1: Kevin Kenny, the songwriter, one of my favorite people on earth.

500
00:25:54,436 --> 00:25:57,396
Speaker 1: But the thing that Kevin does that I love so

501
00:25:57,676 --> 00:26:00,996
Speaker 1: much is like he had a bad driving and crying

502
00:26:01,636 --> 00:26:03,876
Speaker 1: in the eighties and the nineties and they still tour,

503
00:26:03,956 --> 00:26:07,276
Speaker 1: they still do stuff. But he's a folk songwriter and

504
00:26:07,316 --> 00:26:10,396
Speaker 1: he writes folk songs. But this would play big, old

505
00:26:10,436 --> 00:26:14,636
Speaker 1: boneheaded rock rifts and it was a combination that's so

506
00:26:14,796 --> 00:26:18,276
Speaker 1: hard to pull off, but Kevin has pulled it off

507
00:26:18,316 --> 00:26:21,316
Speaker 1: so well for so long. They had a pretty big

508
00:26:21,436 --> 00:26:24,196
Speaker 1: hit with Straight to Hell. That was on college radio.

509
00:26:24,236 --> 00:26:26,156
Speaker 1: I'm Going Straight to Hell. That was their big one.

510
00:26:26,196 --> 00:26:29,556
Speaker 1: But so many good songs where it's like, you know,

511
00:26:29,636 --> 00:26:31,996
Speaker 1: the riff sounds like ac DC, but then what he's

512
00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:34,076
Speaker 1: singing over the top is like would he go through?

513
00:26:34,116 --> 00:26:38,116
Speaker 1: It's amazing. And when I first started touring solo, I

514
00:26:38,156 --> 00:26:40,116
Speaker 1: was still with the Drive By Truckers. Some of the

515
00:26:40,156 --> 00:26:42,516
Speaker 1: first solo shows that I did were with Kevin. I

516
00:26:42,556 --> 00:26:45,676
Speaker 1: was opening for it. He would go to the Goodwill

517
00:26:45,716 --> 00:26:48,236
Speaker 1: and buy a lamp and that would be his stage show.

518
00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:50,196
Speaker 1: He would put the good wheel lamp on stage and

519
00:26:50,236 --> 00:26:52,276
Speaker 1: turn it on. That would be his light show, you know.

520
00:26:52,796 --> 00:26:54,516
Speaker 1: And then after a few shows, after the end of

521
00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:56,796
Speaker 1: the tour, he gave me the lamp. I was so honored.

522
00:26:57,196 --> 00:26:59,956
Speaker 1: It's a horribly ugly lap, Like I've never been with

523
00:26:59,996 --> 00:27:01,836
Speaker 1: a woman that would allow it in the house. So

524
00:27:01,876 --> 00:27:04,636
Speaker 1: there's a lamp in storage that I got from Kevin Kenny.

525
00:27:05,156 --> 00:27:07,276
Speaker 1: But that was sort of a ride of passage for

526
00:27:07,716 --> 00:27:11,276
Speaker 1: southern folk songwriters. Was if you got a lamp from

527
00:27:11,356 --> 00:27:12,116
Speaker 1: Kevin Kenny.

528
00:27:12,196 --> 00:27:16,276
Speaker 2: You know that's amazing. You sound incredible on that.

529
00:27:16,396 --> 00:27:19,076
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. I love singing rock songs. It's hard.

530
00:27:19,156 --> 00:27:22,396
Speaker 1: It's hard to write a rock song for me. I

531
00:27:22,436 --> 00:27:25,116
Speaker 1: know for some people it works differently, but I do

532
00:27:25,196 --> 00:27:29,316
Speaker 1: better with like these introspective, quiet, sad sort of jams.

533
00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:31,156
Speaker 1: And then when it's time to write like a balls

534
00:27:31,156 --> 00:27:34,156
Speaker 1: out rock song, it's just too many options. You know,

535
00:27:34,356 --> 00:27:36,596
Speaker 1: I overthink it. So when I get a chance to

536
00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:39,076
Speaker 1: sing one, I really enjoy it.

537
00:27:39,116 --> 00:27:41,396
Speaker 2: Is it too many options in terms of the guitar

538
00:27:41,476 --> 00:27:44,356
Speaker 2: playing or the songwriting lyrics.

539
00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:46,676
Speaker 1: I think that's what's hard for me, because I'm not

540
00:27:46,716 --> 00:27:48,556
Speaker 1: going to write a song where I'm like, what's the

541
00:27:48,596 --> 00:27:51,756
Speaker 1: thin Lizzie line and jail Breaker says, hey, you good

542
00:27:51,796 --> 00:27:56,076
Speaker 1: looking female, come here. Like I can't write that down

543
00:27:56,076 --> 00:27:58,476
Speaker 1: on a piece of paper and not mark it out,

544
00:27:58,676 --> 00:28:01,756
Speaker 1: you know, like I'd be like, man, no, I can't

545
00:28:01,836 --> 00:28:04,516
Speaker 1: let that slide. But I can't think of anything that

546
00:28:04,556 --> 00:28:07,276
Speaker 1: would be more perfect from Phil ly Not than that.

547
00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:10,916
Speaker 1: You know, it's aft, you know, it's really tough, and

548
00:28:11,676 --> 00:28:15,196
Speaker 1: correspond Scott and Brian Johnson, you know, they were really

549
00:28:15,196 --> 00:28:16,196
Speaker 1: good at that kind of thing.

550
00:28:16,396 --> 00:28:17,596
Speaker 2: A song like big balls.

551
00:28:17,716 --> 00:28:21,596
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so dumb, but I would not want it

552
00:28:21,636 --> 00:28:23,876
Speaker 1: to be different at all, And I never get tired

553
00:28:23,916 --> 00:28:28,156
Speaker 1: of it, never gets boring, thunderstruck for Christ's sakes, Like,

554
00:28:28,236 --> 00:28:32,156
Speaker 1: who's gonna write that down as a songwriter and say

555
00:28:32,196 --> 00:28:34,796
Speaker 1: this is my song today. But if it had been different,

556
00:28:34,796 --> 00:28:37,156
Speaker 1: it would have sucked, you know. So, Yeah, that's a

557
00:28:37,196 --> 00:28:39,036
Speaker 1: tough call to write a rock and roll song. It's

558
00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:39,596
Speaker 1: really hard.

559
00:28:39,796 --> 00:28:41,716
Speaker 2: Do you have riffs stored away somewhere?

560
00:28:41,796 --> 00:28:41,956
Speaker 1: Oh?

561
00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:43,956
Speaker 2: Yeah, like from failed rock and roll songs?

562
00:28:44,036 --> 00:28:47,316
Speaker 1: Yeah? Tons, tons. I haven't accepted that they're failed yet.

563
00:28:47,396 --> 00:28:49,796
Speaker 1: One day, you know, it'll be when I'm eighty, I'll

564
00:28:49,796 --> 00:28:52,916
Speaker 1: put out the bonehead ac DC sounding record.

565
00:28:53,636 --> 00:28:55,436
Speaker 2: But why can't you do like the Kevin Kenney thing

566
00:28:55,556 --> 00:28:59,196
Speaker 2: of like just put like, you know, the lyrics you

567
00:28:59,236 --> 00:29:02,636
Speaker 2: would normally write over the bomb bas I do.

568
00:29:02,756 --> 00:29:05,676
Speaker 1: Sometimes I do two or three songs on a record.

569
00:29:05,676 --> 00:29:09,556
Speaker 1: I do that. But that's tough because you know, at

570
00:29:09,556 --> 00:29:14,076
Speaker 1: a certain point it becomes lipstick on a pig. You know,

571
00:29:14,156 --> 00:29:17,396
Speaker 1: at a certain point you're like, this doesn't sound right.

572
00:29:17,476 --> 00:29:20,036
Speaker 1: The music is now I'm going with the words that

573
00:29:20,116 --> 00:29:23,556
Speaker 1: I'm hearing, And then you've made a production mistake. You know,

574
00:29:23,836 --> 00:29:26,476
Speaker 1: like if I was singing the lyrics to Elephant, you know,

575
00:29:26,676 --> 00:29:29,836
Speaker 1: over the music to You Shook Me all night long,

576
00:29:29,956 --> 00:29:32,396
Speaker 1: like people would be pissed. People would be like, man,

577
00:29:32,796 --> 00:29:35,276
Speaker 1: this is terrible. You didn't take this seriously at all.

578
00:29:35,396 --> 00:29:38,196
Speaker 1: You know, you got to be careful. It's got to

579
00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:42,276
Speaker 1: be congruous in some way. You know, it's got to

580
00:29:42,276 --> 00:29:45,396
Speaker 1: feel like one piece of work. So to do it right,

581
00:29:45,476 --> 00:29:48,036
Speaker 1: you got to just walk that line where the lyric

582
00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:52,316
Speaker 1: just barely scoots into dumb enough and the riff just

583
00:29:52,356 --> 00:29:55,156
Speaker 1: barely scoots into smart enough to where they kind of

584
00:29:55,196 --> 00:29:57,916
Speaker 1: line up. But if you get too smart with the riff,

585
00:29:57,996 --> 00:30:00,196
Speaker 1: then you're making prog rock, And if you get too

586
00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:03,196
Speaker 1: dumb with the lyric, then you're just writing an ACDC song.

587
00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:05,796
Speaker 1: So you've got to like really skirt that line.

588
00:30:05,916 --> 00:30:07,836
Speaker 2: That's a great point. You don't want to venture into

589
00:30:07,836 --> 00:30:08,596
Speaker 2: prog rock.

590
00:30:08,636 --> 00:30:10,876
Speaker 1: Unless that's what you may if you're good at that.

591
00:30:11,076 --> 00:30:13,956
Speaker 1: But if you dip your toe in frog rock, that's

592
00:30:13,996 --> 00:30:16,316
Speaker 1: going to be really bad because they take that shit

593
00:30:16,396 --> 00:30:17,476
Speaker 1: real seriously, you.

594
00:30:17,436 --> 00:30:20,596
Speaker 2: Know, super serious. Yeah, tell me about Strawberry Woman. Man,

595
00:30:20,716 --> 00:30:23,396
Speaker 2: that line this young man crying in the cowboy hat

596
00:30:23,396 --> 00:30:25,356
Speaker 2: he's got square boots, so he for real.

597
00:30:25,476 --> 00:30:28,036
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, well, you know, there's a lot of argument

598
00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:30,556
Speaker 1: over which sort of cowboy boots you should wear. My

599
00:30:30,596 --> 00:30:33,556
Speaker 1: little brother wears square toed boots, and I bought him

600
00:30:33,596 --> 00:30:36,116
Speaker 1: a pair of pointier toe boots for Christmas, so I'm

601
00:30:36,156 --> 00:30:39,036
Speaker 1: hoping to move them over into that. But that's also

602
00:30:39,196 --> 00:30:42,516
Speaker 1: kind of an inside joke about playing the pedal steel

603
00:30:42,516 --> 00:30:46,116
Speaker 1: guitar because if you'll notice, the pedals are so small

604
00:30:46,396 --> 00:30:48,716
Speaker 1: and they're so close together that if you don't wear

605
00:30:48,796 --> 00:30:51,596
Speaker 1: the right kind of shoes, you'll accidentally hit more than

606
00:30:51,596 --> 00:30:55,276
Speaker 1: one pedal at a time. So this is why the

607
00:30:55,276 --> 00:30:58,916
Speaker 1: pedal steel is a true cowboy instrument, because cowboy boots

608
00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:01,036
Speaker 1: are what you wear in order to be able to

609
00:31:01,636 --> 00:31:03,236
Speaker 1: hit this one pedal at a time.

610
00:31:04,556 --> 00:31:06,716
Speaker 2: Fascinating. So that's why the next line wouldn't last five

611
00:31:06,716 --> 00:31:07,676
Speaker 2: minutes on a pedal.

612
00:31:07,476 --> 00:31:10,756
Speaker 1: Steel, right because he starts hitting the rock. We're disconnected,

613
00:31:10,876 --> 00:31:14,396
Speaker 1: it seems like it. But if you're a musician, you go, oh,

614
00:31:14,396 --> 00:31:16,276
Speaker 1: I see what he means. You know, because a lot

615
00:31:16,276 --> 00:31:18,356
Speaker 1: of steel players, if they don't wear cowboy but still

616
00:31:18,396 --> 00:31:20,876
Speaker 1: play in their socks, you know, because you just got

617
00:31:20,916 --> 00:31:23,076
Speaker 1: to be able to hit a very narrow pedal there

618
00:31:23,116 --> 00:31:26,196
Speaker 1: and not hit the ones next to it. But also like,

619
00:31:26,396 --> 00:31:30,196
Speaker 1: I like this image of you know, the naivete of

620
00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:34,356
Speaker 1: having your heart broken, and a cowboy, like a real cowboy,

621
00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:38,116
Speaker 1: is a very specific type of naive. Like they have

622
00:31:38,356 --> 00:31:42,996
Speaker 1: chosen to spend their time around animals rather than around people,

623
00:31:43,076 --> 00:31:46,556
Speaker 1: so they don't learn these worldly things. And then by

624
00:31:46,596 --> 00:31:50,916
Speaker 1: the time they're old, they've become wise before they become worldly,

625
00:31:51,116 --> 00:31:54,636
Speaker 1: you know, which is a really interesting combination. They make

626
00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:57,716
Speaker 1: for very stubborn, very interesting old men. But when they're

627
00:31:57,796 --> 00:32:00,716
Speaker 1: kids and they're still you know, in the shape that

628
00:32:00,756 --> 00:32:03,156
Speaker 1: you have to be to break horses and things like that,

629
00:32:03,316 --> 00:32:06,676
Speaker 1: they're basically frozen as twelve or thirteen year olds for

630
00:32:06,716 --> 00:32:09,796
Speaker 1: a good long while. Because they just don't spend time

631
00:32:09,836 --> 00:32:10,996
Speaker 1: around human people.

632
00:32:11,356 --> 00:32:13,396
Speaker 2: They become wise before they become worldly.

633
00:32:13,596 --> 00:32:16,756
Speaker 1: Yeah, So their wisdom comes from nature, it comes from work,

634
00:32:16,916 --> 00:32:20,276
Speaker 1: and it comes from like finding things out on their own.

635
00:32:20,396 --> 00:32:22,676
Speaker 1: They don't get a whole lot of advice cowboys. They

636
00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:24,156
Speaker 1: find things out the hard way.

637
00:32:25,196 --> 00:32:29,876
Speaker 2: Yeah. Cowboys never cease to be fertile songwriting territory.

638
00:32:29,996 --> 00:32:32,916
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, for Willie Nelson or for Phil Lahy, not

639
00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,716
Speaker 1: you know, they all write about it. Yeah. Yeah, it's

640
00:32:36,756 --> 00:32:39,076
Speaker 1: just a really different type of person. And it doesn't

641
00:32:39,076 --> 00:32:41,356
Speaker 1: necessarily have to be an American cowboy. You know, there's

642
00:32:41,396 --> 00:32:44,876
Speaker 1: a bunch of them in Manitoba and Alberta and Spain.

643
00:32:45,236 --> 00:32:47,996
Speaker 1: You know, they got smaller horses in Spain. But it's

644
00:32:47,996 --> 00:32:51,516
Speaker 1: the same basic principle. But yeah, it's interesting because it's

645
00:32:51,596 --> 00:32:56,636
Speaker 1: like you're making this conscious decision to not participate in

646
00:32:57,036 --> 00:33:00,716
Speaker 1: modern civilization. So there's a naivete, that kind of an

647
00:33:00,756 --> 00:33:04,676
Speaker 1: innocence about it that's really beautiful. But at the same time,

648
00:33:04,796 --> 00:33:08,516
Speaker 1: on the rare occasion that they wander into town, hilarity.

649
00:33:08,596 --> 00:33:11,636
Speaker 1: And so you know, did your brother take that line?

650
00:33:11,636 --> 00:33:13,436
Speaker 1: By the way, Oh, he got a kick out of it.

651
00:33:13,516 --> 00:33:14,756
Speaker 1: He got to be a kick out of it. But

652
00:33:14,836 --> 00:33:18,836
Speaker 1: he is definitely more cowboy like he's a real red tack,

653
00:33:18,916 --> 00:33:20,876
Speaker 1: you know. Like somebody asked me the other day, like,

654
00:33:20,916 --> 00:33:23,116
Speaker 1: what would you do in the apocalypse? I find my

655
00:33:23,156 --> 00:33:24,876
Speaker 1: little brother. You know, we would go out in the

656
00:33:24,876 --> 00:33:27,636
Speaker 1: woods and come back fatter than we were when we left,

657
00:33:27,716 --> 00:33:29,956
Speaker 1: you know, because he could actually just wander off and

658
00:33:30,036 --> 00:33:32,396
Speaker 1: survive just fine. He's one of the only people I

659
00:33:32,476 --> 00:33:33,716
Speaker 1: know that could really do that.

660
00:33:34,636 --> 00:33:36,156
Speaker 2: Man, you gotta take him on tour with you, then,

661
00:33:36,356 --> 00:33:38,796
Speaker 2: I know, see, that's that's what you want to find

662
00:33:39,556 --> 00:33:39,756
Speaker 2: with you.

663
00:33:39,956 --> 00:33:42,076
Speaker 1: You take him on tour and then you bruin it

664
00:33:42,116 --> 00:33:44,116
Speaker 1: because that is not where he wants to be. You

665
00:33:44,116 --> 00:33:45,716
Speaker 1: don't want to be in a tour bus in New

666
00:33:45,796 --> 00:33:47,556
Speaker 1: York City. You know, he wants to be out in

667
00:33:47,596 --> 00:33:48,796
Speaker 1: the woods somewhere.

668
00:33:49,716 --> 00:33:51,396
Speaker 2: A cowboy on a tour bus in New York City

669
00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:52,076
Speaker 2: would be uh.

670
00:33:52,156 --> 00:33:55,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's happened. I guess that happened a

671
00:33:55,156 --> 00:33:57,516
Speaker 1: lot early on. You know, George Strait had to get

672
00:33:57,556 --> 00:34:00,116
Speaker 1: everywhere somehow. But I don't think he would enjoy it

673
00:34:00,116 --> 00:34:01,116
Speaker 1: as much as I would.

674
00:34:01,516 --> 00:34:04,436
Speaker 2: Speaking of George straight Man, I was thinking about him recently.

675
00:34:04,676 --> 00:34:09,276
Speaker 2: His music is phenomenal. Yeah, but he feels like, I

676
00:34:09,276 --> 00:34:11,676
Speaker 2: don't know, like I guess he feels now oddly like

677
00:34:11,716 --> 00:34:15,396
Speaker 2: a part of the fabric of country now more than

678
00:34:15,476 --> 00:34:18,756
Speaker 2: like an artist. He's like, he really is like an

679
00:34:18,756 --> 00:34:20,956
Speaker 2: elder of the music. Not I don't mean to put it, no,

680
00:34:21,036 --> 00:34:23,036
Speaker 2: I know what you mean way, or an insulting way.

681
00:34:23,116 --> 00:34:25,516
Speaker 1: You know, he's a legend, and you know he got

682
00:34:25,556 --> 00:34:28,076
Speaker 1: it from not really writing his own songs. Like he

683
00:34:28,196 --> 00:34:31,476
Speaker 1: was an interpreter of song, which kind of like to

684
00:34:31,596 --> 00:34:34,636
Speaker 1: me is the part of country music that relates to

685
00:34:34,676 --> 00:34:37,076
Speaker 1: what like Sinatra was doing or some of the old

686
00:34:37,196 --> 00:34:40,956
Speaker 1: jazz singers you know, who weren't composers. And I think

687
00:34:40,996 --> 00:34:44,236
Speaker 1: that there can be an art in writing songs. There

688
00:34:44,276 --> 00:34:48,316
Speaker 1: can be art in delivering songs interpreting songs as well,

689
00:34:48,516 --> 00:34:49,836
Speaker 1: you know, And I think you don't have to be

690
00:34:49,876 --> 00:34:52,876
Speaker 1: a songwriter to be an artist. But if you call

691
00:34:52,916 --> 00:34:55,436
Speaker 1: yourself a songwriter, or if you're not a great singer,

692
00:34:56,116 --> 00:34:57,956
Speaker 1: then you know you're going to have to write some

693
00:34:57,996 --> 00:35:00,036
Speaker 1: of your own songs or step things up a little bit.

694
00:35:00,076 --> 00:35:03,676
Speaker 1: But George Strait had such a wonderful quality to his

695
00:35:03,836 --> 00:35:08,556
Speaker 1: voice and delivery of those songs. You know, sometimes it's

696
00:35:08,596 --> 00:35:11,356
Speaker 1: not something you can learn. Sometimes it's just about where

697
00:35:11,396 --> 00:35:15,236
Speaker 1: your voice sits and the resonance of your voice, especially

698
00:35:15,276 --> 00:35:18,716
Speaker 1: in country music or you know, show tunes. I mean,

699
00:35:18,956 --> 00:35:21,996
Speaker 1: it's like Sinatra would just go in and start singing.

700
00:35:22,476 --> 00:35:24,036
Speaker 1: You know, you better have the tape on it because

701
00:35:24,036 --> 00:35:26,956
Speaker 1: you might get one take. Because he knew that what

702
00:35:26,996 --> 00:35:30,876
Speaker 1: people wanted was the quality of his voice. And I

703
00:35:30,876 --> 00:35:33,356
Speaker 1: think it was that way with George straight Now you

704
00:35:33,356 --> 00:35:35,476
Speaker 1: get to somebody like George Jones, and then that's a

705
00:35:35,476 --> 00:35:39,156
Speaker 1: whole different thing, because you know, George Jones had that

706
00:35:39,316 --> 00:35:41,756
Speaker 1: sort of country quality to his voice, but he could

707
00:35:41,796 --> 00:35:45,876
Speaker 1: control it in a way that was just unbelievable. Every

708
00:35:45,916 --> 00:35:48,836
Speaker 1: once in a while on Instagram or TikTok or something,

709
00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:50,796
Speaker 1: a clip will come up with him just sitting around

710
00:35:50,876 --> 00:35:53,716
Speaker 1: drinking a beer and singing a song and it sounds

711
00:35:53,756 --> 00:35:57,836
Speaker 1: like the best possible performance anybody I know could pull

712
00:35:57,876 --> 00:36:00,636
Speaker 1: off on a stage at a football stadium, and it's

713
00:36:00,716 --> 00:36:03,556
Speaker 1: just him sitting in a chair, smoking, drinking, you know,

714
00:36:03,716 --> 00:36:06,156
Speaker 1: not even paying attention to what he's doing. George Jones

715
00:36:06,196 --> 00:36:10,676
Speaker 1: really had a beautiful gift, But it doesn't take all that,

716
00:36:10,876 --> 00:36:13,676
Speaker 1: you know. I think if you're good at delivering somebody

717
00:36:13,676 --> 00:36:16,516
Speaker 1: else's words in a way that makes people believe it,

718
00:36:17,156 --> 00:36:19,956
Speaker 1: and you have that natural quality to your voice that

719
00:36:20,156 --> 00:36:23,156
Speaker 1: sits in just the right place, which is what George

720
00:36:23,156 --> 00:36:26,076
Speaker 1: Strait had, I think you can get yourself into the

721
00:36:26,076 --> 00:36:27,956
Speaker 1: fabric of country music that way.

722
00:36:28,276 --> 00:36:30,276
Speaker 2: Is it weird now for your songs to sort of

723
00:36:30,276 --> 00:36:32,396
Speaker 2: start becoming part of like the songbook?

724
00:36:32,556 --> 00:36:36,116
Speaker 1: It's all weird. Everything is so fucking weird to me,

725
00:36:36,436 --> 00:36:40,316
Speaker 1: but I like hearing my songs out in the wild,

726
00:36:40,836 --> 00:36:42,956
Speaker 1: even if other people are singing them. Now. Stuff I

727
00:36:42,956 --> 00:36:45,836
Speaker 1: happened with Morgan that, you know, I wasn't a fan

728
00:36:45,956 --> 00:36:48,196
Speaker 1: of after that, but at the time when he covered

729
00:36:48,236 --> 00:36:50,356
Speaker 1: the song, I thought, man, this is great. Bunch of

730
00:36:50,356 --> 00:36:53,196
Speaker 1: young people are going to hear the song, and it

731
00:36:53,276 --> 00:36:59,436
Speaker 1: gave me some reassurance that when you're being specific with

732
00:36:59,596 --> 00:37:02,476
Speaker 1: these songs, that's when people really have a close connection

733
00:37:02,596 --> 00:37:06,516
Speaker 1: to them because they think he knew a secret about me.

734
00:37:06,756 --> 00:37:10,436
Speaker 1: How did this song writer know this? It's very specific,

735
00:37:10,756 --> 00:37:13,556
Speaker 1: very detailed feeling that I was having. I thought I

736
00:37:13,716 --> 00:37:17,036
Speaker 1: was alone, And to me, that's the best thing that

737
00:37:17,236 --> 00:37:19,476
Speaker 1: art can do is when somebody says I thought I

738
00:37:19,556 --> 00:37:22,436
Speaker 1: was alone until I heard this. You know, now I

739
00:37:22,476 --> 00:37:25,236
Speaker 1: know there's at least one other person out there that

740
00:37:25,356 --> 00:37:28,796
Speaker 1: feels exactly the same way. I think. To do that,

741
00:37:28,956 --> 00:37:32,236
Speaker 1: you have to, you know, try not to be too vague.

742
00:37:32,676 --> 00:37:35,196
Speaker 1: You can't really write with a target in my mind,

743
00:37:35,356 --> 00:37:38,076
Speaker 1: like a specific audience that you're trying to nail. You

744
00:37:38,156 --> 00:37:41,356
Speaker 1: have to just make yourself the target, you know, and

745
00:37:41,436 --> 00:37:44,676
Speaker 1: write the kind of music that speaks to a very

746
00:37:44,716 --> 00:37:48,716
Speaker 1: detailed account of your own experience, and then you just wait.

747
00:37:48,996 --> 00:37:50,756
Speaker 1: You just do your best job with it, and you

748
00:37:50,836 --> 00:37:53,956
Speaker 1: wait for somebody a thousand miles away to pop up

749
00:37:53,996 --> 00:37:57,196
Speaker 1: and say that exact same thing happened to me. And

750
00:37:57,236 --> 00:37:59,876
Speaker 1: that's a really beautiful thing because then you're reminded of

751
00:37:59,916 --> 00:38:02,916
Speaker 1: what we have in common rather than our differences.

752
00:38:04,596 --> 00:38:06,956
Speaker 2: We're pausing for one last quick break and then we'll

753
00:38:06,996 --> 00:38:13,836
Speaker 2: be back with Jason Isbell. Here's the rest of my

754
00:38:13,916 --> 00:38:19,356
Speaker 2: conversation with Jason Isbel your ability to not only to

755
00:38:19,596 --> 00:38:23,556
Speaker 2: write so personally, but I do know it seems like

756
00:38:23,556 --> 00:38:27,836
Speaker 2: you have a commitment to living your life openly and honestly.

757
00:38:28,036 --> 00:38:30,436
Speaker 2: You know, like similar to the way like Howard Stern.

758
00:38:30,756 --> 00:38:32,996
Speaker 2: You know, let's say, like it seems to have no

759
00:38:33,116 --> 00:38:37,556
Speaker 2: qualms putting any of his follies on display for the world.

760
00:38:38,116 --> 00:38:41,276
Speaker 2: It seems like you have had no qualms doing that.

761
00:38:41,556 --> 00:38:45,636
Speaker 2: And it's helpful for one, I think, to other people,

762
00:38:45,636 --> 00:38:48,316
Speaker 2: because just like a song that's so personal to you

763
00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:52,276
Speaker 2: can be heard by somebody else and they can sense

764
00:38:52,316 --> 00:38:54,436
Speaker 2: that they're not alone, feel that they're not alone, feel seen,

765
00:38:54,476 --> 00:38:57,836
Speaker 2: feel heard by something that relates only to you, but

766
00:38:58,036 --> 00:39:01,596
Speaker 2: now is not only personal, but it's like being a

767
00:39:01,636 --> 00:39:05,556
Speaker 2: married person myself that went through the pandemic. Watching your

768
00:39:05,676 --> 00:39:08,516
Speaker 2: HBO film was like Jesus fucking Christ, we weren't the

769
00:39:08,516 --> 00:39:09,156
Speaker 2: only ones.

770
00:39:09,316 --> 00:39:12,756
Speaker 1: Right, And that was tough, man. That was tough, you know.

771
00:39:12,836 --> 00:39:15,236
Speaker 1: And there are poems because I sit back and think,

772
00:39:15,316 --> 00:39:17,196
Speaker 1: why do I have to do this shit again? You

773
00:39:17,196 --> 00:39:19,276
Speaker 1: know why? I got to tell everybody what's going on

774
00:39:19,276 --> 00:39:23,276
Speaker 1: once again. But with the bigger risks come the bigger

775
00:39:23,316 --> 00:39:26,596
Speaker 1: rewards as far as that goes, And you know, there's

776
00:39:26,636 --> 00:39:30,156
Speaker 1: a certain level of accountability, Like if I know that

777
00:39:30,396 --> 00:39:32,676
Speaker 1: my thing is to be honest with people about how

778
00:39:32,676 --> 00:39:34,396
Speaker 1: I live my life, that I'm going to try really

779
00:39:34,436 --> 00:39:36,116
Speaker 1: hard to live my life the right way in a

780
00:39:36,156 --> 00:39:38,516
Speaker 1: way that I could be proud of, you know. But

781
00:39:38,636 --> 00:39:42,116
Speaker 1: also I sort of see it as most of the

782
00:39:42,236 --> 00:39:47,676
Speaker 1: risks to me are negligible. You know, I'm a person

783
00:39:47,756 --> 00:39:51,556
Speaker 1: from a protected class, and I have been blessed with

784
00:39:51,636 --> 00:39:54,916
Speaker 1: the encouragement and the gifts that I need to climb

785
00:39:54,916 --> 00:39:57,516
Speaker 1: out of trailer Park, Alabama and get to a place

786
00:39:57,516 --> 00:40:01,196
Speaker 1: where I'm really comfortable. And in that way, I kind

787
00:40:01,196 --> 00:40:02,796
Speaker 1: of feel like I'm one of the people with the

788
00:40:02,916 --> 00:40:05,556
Speaker 1: armor on, you know what I'm saying. And those people

789
00:40:05,556 --> 00:40:07,316
Speaker 1: should go to the front of the line because they

790
00:40:07,316 --> 00:40:10,076
Speaker 1: have the armor on. So I can say something that

791
00:40:10,116 --> 00:40:13,956
Speaker 1: somebody else would be afraid to say, you know, and

792
00:40:13,996 --> 00:40:17,396
Speaker 1: then they can resonate with that. They're going to get

793
00:40:17,476 --> 00:40:20,396
Speaker 1: more out of it because it's not necessarily possible for

794
00:40:20,516 --> 00:40:23,596
Speaker 1: them to say, Hey, hands up, here's what's going wrong

795
00:40:23,636 --> 00:40:25,756
Speaker 1: with my life, or here are the mistakes that I've made,

796
00:40:25,836 --> 00:40:27,676
Speaker 1: or hear the things that have been difficult for me.

797
00:40:27,996 --> 00:40:30,956
Speaker 1: They might not be able to start that conversation, but

798
00:40:31,036 --> 00:40:33,236
Speaker 1: they might be able to chime in if you start

799
00:40:33,316 --> 00:40:34,156
Speaker 1: that conversation.

800
00:40:34,396 --> 00:40:36,396
Speaker 2: Was there anyone like that for you growing up?

801
00:40:36,636 --> 00:40:39,556
Speaker 1: That's a good question, you know. I felt like my

802
00:40:39,676 --> 00:40:44,436
Speaker 1: grandfather was pretty good about being open and honest with everybody.

803
00:40:44,516 --> 00:40:46,916
Speaker 1: And when I was a kid, he was a Pentecostal

804
00:40:46,956 --> 00:40:50,356
Speaker 1: preacher in Alabama, and he didn't know how to write

805
00:40:50,436 --> 00:40:52,676
Speaker 1: until he started preaching. My grandmother taught him how to

806
00:40:52,676 --> 00:40:55,436
Speaker 1: write so he could write down his sermons and give

807
00:40:55,476 --> 00:40:58,516
Speaker 1: them in charge. And you know, he'd grown up share

808
00:40:58,556 --> 00:41:01,996
Speaker 1: proper and basically got to the point where, you know,

809
00:41:02,076 --> 00:41:03,796
Speaker 1: he could go to the grocery store and get what

810
00:41:03,876 --> 00:41:06,156
Speaker 1: he wanted, and so the worst thing he could do

811
00:41:06,156 --> 00:41:08,196
Speaker 1: would be send him to the grocery store, because he

812
00:41:08,196 --> 00:41:10,596
Speaker 1: would come back with it all kinds of like old

813
00:41:10,636 --> 00:41:12,876
Speaker 1: fashioned candy, you know. So when I was a kid,

814
00:41:12,916 --> 00:41:14,396
Speaker 1: I was like, I want to go to the grocery

815
00:41:14,436 --> 00:41:16,916
Speaker 1: store with him, you know, because it's all the stuff

816
00:41:16,916 --> 00:41:18,516
Speaker 1: that he never had when he was a kid, couldn't

817
00:41:18,516 --> 00:41:20,676
Speaker 1: afford when he was a kid. But he was a

818
00:41:20,996 --> 00:41:25,996
Speaker 1: very honest person, and I noticed that, like when there

819
00:41:26,116 --> 00:41:28,236
Speaker 1: was a deal, when he was buying a car or

820
00:41:28,276 --> 00:41:31,676
Speaker 1: trading a guitar, or trading a horse or an animal

821
00:41:31,756 --> 00:41:35,556
Speaker 1: or something, he usually got beat Almost all the time.

822
00:41:35,716 --> 00:41:38,436
Speaker 1: He would he would get beat in those deals, and

823
00:41:38,756 --> 00:41:41,196
Speaker 1: at one point I thought, Man, this sucks. My granddad

824
00:41:41,236 --> 00:41:43,356
Speaker 1: always gets beaten, they say. But then after a while,

825
00:41:43,396 --> 00:41:45,916
Speaker 1: I thought, you know what that actually is what you

826
00:41:46,076 --> 00:41:48,356
Speaker 1: want to be. You want to be the guy that

827
00:41:48,516 --> 00:41:51,036
Speaker 1: is honest. Because when he would go in, he would say, well,

828
00:41:51,436 --> 00:41:54,036
Speaker 1: this horse has had too much sweet feed and it's foundered,

829
00:41:54,116 --> 00:41:56,796
Speaker 1: so it's not worth much. But somebody else he was

830
00:41:56,836 --> 00:41:59,756
Speaker 1: trading with, would, you know, doctor things up and make

831
00:41:59,836 --> 00:42:03,756
Speaker 1: it look really, you know. And by the end of

832
00:42:03,796 --> 00:42:06,316
Speaker 1: his life I sort of figured out he didn't have

833
00:42:06,356 --> 00:42:10,396
Speaker 1: any regrets really, and I thought that's because he been honest.

834
00:42:10,476 --> 00:42:13,036
Speaker 1: You don't look back on your deathbed and say, I

835
00:42:13,076 --> 00:42:15,636
Speaker 1: wish I'd gotten more for that truck, But you might

836
00:42:15,676 --> 00:42:17,876
Speaker 1: look back and say, I feel bad for cheating so

837
00:42:17,956 --> 00:42:19,716
Speaker 1: many people out of something.

838
00:42:19,876 --> 00:42:21,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, because you don't know what you're cheating the other

839
00:42:21,836 --> 00:42:22,676
Speaker 2: person out of.

840
00:42:22,876 --> 00:42:24,796
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't know how they came by their money.

841
00:42:24,876 --> 00:42:27,116
Speaker 1: You don't know how they got that horse. You don't know,

842
00:42:27,356 --> 00:42:29,476
Speaker 1: and you're not interested in it because you're just trying

843
00:42:29,476 --> 00:42:32,756
Speaker 1: to get yours. And I was lucky enough to grow

844
00:42:32,836 --> 00:42:37,236
Speaker 1: up around people who took that stuff seriously and realized

845
00:42:37,236 --> 00:42:39,556
Speaker 1: that what might seem like a loss at the time,

846
00:42:39,996 --> 00:42:42,556
Speaker 1: it was a wind in the long run by being

847
00:42:42,596 --> 00:42:43,596
Speaker 1: more honest.

848
00:42:43,796 --> 00:42:47,236
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting, man. At what point did you realize

849
00:42:47,236 --> 00:42:50,516
Speaker 2: that that was actually an asset of your grandfather's.

850
00:42:50,036 --> 00:42:52,876
Speaker 1: In my late teens, probably when he was getting on

851
00:42:52,996 --> 00:42:55,156
Speaker 1: in years and didn't have a whole lot of time left,

852
00:42:55,236 --> 00:42:58,756
Speaker 1: I thought, because I did that with all my grandparents

853
00:42:58,796 --> 00:43:01,636
Speaker 1: really when they were close to the end of their life.

854
00:43:02,076 --> 00:43:05,036
Speaker 1: I just kind of found myself, not on purpose, but

855
00:43:05,196 --> 00:43:08,036
Speaker 1: just sort of looking back and thinking, well, how would

856
00:43:08,076 --> 00:43:10,236
Speaker 1: I feel if I was in the spot what I

857
00:43:10,316 --> 00:43:14,316
Speaker 1: have enemies or regrets or people that I wanted to

858
00:43:14,356 --> 00:43:18,356
Speaker 1: settle up with or apologize too. And he really didn't.

859
00:43:18,556 --> 00:43:22,156
Speaker 1: He wasn't afraid. He was a religious man, faithful man,

860
00:43:22,196 --> 00:43:24,756
Speaker 1: and he thought, well, this is gonna be a relief.

861
00:43:24,796 --> 00:43:27,116
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go on to somewhere beautiful. He didn't have

862
00:43:27,156 --> 00:43:31,156
Speaker 1: anybody to apologize to. He asked my dad like at

863
00:43:31,196 --> 00:43:33,196
Speaker 1: the end, he's like, you need any money before I go?

864
00:43:33,276 --> 00:43:35,276
Speaker 1: You need any money? My dad was like, no, I

865
00:43:35,436 --> 00:43:38,476
Speaker 1: got my own family and my own job, and I'm

866
00:43:38,476 --> 00:43:41,356
Speaker 1: all right. But that's what he was thinking about still,

867
00:43:41,556 --> 00:43:45,596
Speaker 1: was taking care of other people. And I think that's

868
00:43:45,596 --> 00:43:47,076
Speaker 1: a pretty good way to go out.

869
00:43:47,556 --> 00:43:49,636
Speaker 2: It's a great way to go out. It seems like,

870
00:43:49,796 --> 00:43:51,196
Speaker 2: you know, he knew the meaning of life.

871
00:43:51,316 --> 00:43:53,836
Speaker 1: I think so. I think that's true if you can

872
00:43:53,956 --> 00:43:56,476
Speaker 1: leave with the tab all settled up. But it seems

873
00:43:56,556 --> 00:43:57,996
Speaker 1: like that'll do.

874
00:43:57,996 --> 00:44:01,276
Speaker 2: Do you think you need to live your life as

875
00:44:01,316 --> 00:44:02,956
Speaker 2: honest as you do? To be as honest in yourself?

876
00:44:02,996 --> 00:44:05,516
Speaker 2: Like in other words, can you I'm thinking about like

877
00:44:05,516 --> 00:44:08,716
Speaker 2: a Dylan maybe who Well, maybe he's a bad example

878
00:44:09,156 --> 00:44:10,836
Speaker 2: because I don't know how honest he is in his left.

879
00:44:11,036 --> 00:44:13,716
Speaker 1: No, yeah, he's not. I mean, I think he's honest

880
00:44:13,796 --> 00:44:16,876
Speaker 1: in everything, but I don't think he's truthful. I think

881
00:44:16,916 --> 00:44:20,316
Speaker 1: he's honestly lying about ninety percent of the time. But

882
00:44:20,356 --> 00:44:23,556
Speaker 1: that's what he's committed himself to. And it's like, if

883
00:44:23,556 --> 00:44:25,756
Speaker 1: I wanted to be Bob Dylon, that's what I would

884
00:44:25,836 --> 00:44:27,476
Speaker 1: do too. But I don't want to be Bob Deling.

885
00:44:27,636 --> 00:44:29,396
Speaker 1: I love Bob Dylon, but that's not what I want

886
00:44:29,436 --> 00:44:31,116
Speaker 1: to be. I want to be me, you know, And

887
00:44:31,276 --> 00:44:34,356
Speaker 1: my path, the way that I have found is most

888
00:44:34,396 --> 00:44:37,756
Speaker 1: rewarding for me and gives me an individual voice, is

889
00:44:37,836 --> 00:44:41,116
Speaker 1: to reveal these things in an honest way. Also, I

890
00:44:41,236 --> 00:44:44,996
Speaker 1: kind of like somewhere along the line, I committed myself

891
00:44:45,036 --> 00:44:49,236
Speaker 1: to this idea of unraveling the bullshit and the mystery

892
00:44:49,236 --> 00:44:51,916
Speaker 1: of all of it, this idea that you know, you

893
00:44:51,916 --> 00:44:54,596
Speaker 1: can be a rock and roll star and not behave

894
00:44:54,796 --> 00:44:59,076
Speaker 1: like a terrible man, and you can be a songwriter

895
00:44:59,156 --> 00:45:02,396
Speaker 1: and not have to mythologize everything. I think part of

896
00:45:02,436 --> 00:45:07,076
Speaker 1: that came from like when I was fourteen thirteen fourteen,

897
00:45:07,156 --> 00:45:10,556
Speaker 1: a pearl jam hit and I thought, man, these dudes

898
00:45:11,236 --> 00:45:13,996
Speaker 1: are dressed like me, they look like me, and they're

899
00:45:13,996 --> 00:45:17,476
Speaker 1: not trying to dress it up. They just walk on

900
00:45:17,556 --> 00:45:20,116
Speaker 1: stage and they play these songs and it's amazing. It's

901
00:45:20,196 --> 00:45:23,716
Speaker 1: just as entertaining as David Bowie. To me at the time,

902
00:45:23,956 --> 00:45:26,236
Speaker 1: not that there's more value in one way or the other,

903
00:45:27,076 --> 00:45:29,436
Speaker 1: but it just made more sense for me as a

904
00:45:29,476 --> 00:45:32,996
Speaker 1: person to just continue being who I was and then

905
00:45:33,116 --> 00:45:35,276
Speaker 1: just take that on stage and keep doing it.

906
00:45:35,396 --> 00:45:39,316
Speaker 2: Yeah, you announced you're separating also from Amanda. How are

907
00:45:39,316 --> 00:45:43,596
Speaker 2: you going to navigate that publicly and your songwriting life?

908
00:45:43,636 --> 00:45:45,156
Speaker 1: And I don't know, what do you think I should do?

909
00:45:46,356 --> 00:45:50,556
Speaker 1: I don't know help what do I do? Yeah? I

910
00:45:50,556 --> 00:45:52,396
Speaker 1: think I'm just going to try to be honest in

911
00:45:52,516 --> 00:45:55,116
Speaker 1: all the ways that I legally can. I mean, there's

912
00:45:55,356 --> 00:45:58,156
Speaker 1: certain things that we've agreed not to talk about, but

913
00:45:58,276 --> 00:46:00,556
Speaker 1: I think I can still manage to tell people who

914
00:46:00,596 --> 00:46:03,676
Speaker 1: I am and what the truth is from my perspective.

915
00:46:04,996 --> 00:46:07,396
Speaker 1: You know. It's one of those things when not everything

916
00:46:07,436 --> 00:46:11,436
Speaker 1: that Ann's was a face. I think we did a

917
00:46:11,436 --> 00:46:15,196
Speaker 1: lot of really beautiful things together, and I have really

918
00:46:15,276 --> 00:46:18,876
Speaker 1: fond memories of all of that, and I don't regret

919
00:46:19,036 --> 00:46:21,836
Speaker 1: any of it, you know, even the hard stuff. It's

920
00:46:21,876 --> 00:46:24,876
Speaker 1: like when I got into recovery, you know, I wound

921
00:46:24,996 --> 00:46:27,476
Speaker 1: up after a few years looking back and thinking, I

922
00:46:27,476 --> 00:46:30,796
Speaker 1: don't regret even the worst parts of that, because it

923
00:46:30,836 --> 00:46:33,316
Speaker 1: all kind of goes into making me who I am,

924
00:46:33,996 --> 00:46:35,956
Speaker 1: you know. And the time will come when the wounds

925
00:46:35,956 --> 00:46:38,236
Speaker 1: aren't still fresh, The time will come when I'm able

926
00:46:38,276 --> 00:46:41,116
Speaker 1: to take all this and put it into my work

927
00:46:41,156 --> 00:46:44,196
Speaker 1: in a way that is honest and true but makes

928
00:46:44,236 --> 00:46:47,836
Speaker 1: sense for me. I'm going to be patient, and in

929
00:46:47,876 --> 00:46:50,196
Speaker 1: the meantime, I got plenty of other shit to write about.

930
00:46:50,876 --> 00:46:53,076
Speaker 1: That's one thing I think a lot of songwriters miss

931
00:46:53,236 --> 00:46:56,276
Speaker 1: is like the inspiration. You don't need it, and you

932
00:46:56,316 --> 00:46:59,276
Speaker 1: don't need it. It's everywhere. If you can't just look

933
00:46:59,316 --> 00:47:01,396
Speaker 1: out your window and find twenty things to write a

934
00:47:01,436 --> 00:47:04,636
Speaker 1: song about, then you know you're not a real serious

935
00:47:04,636 --> 00:47:07,276
Speaker 1: songwriter yet because it's all over the place.

936
00:47:08,076 --> 00:47:09,916
Speaker 2: Meaning you don't need to write about the thing that

937
00:47:09,956 --> 00:47:14,396
Speaker 2: feels necessarily most pressing in your right life.

938
00:47:14,436 --> 00:47:17,116
Speaker 1: Exactly, yeah, exactly. You might not be ready for that

939
00:47:17,356 --> 00:47:20,996
Speaker 1: right now. You might need to get there through other means,

940
00:47:21,116 --> 00:47:24,556
Speaker 1: you know, work yourself up to it. There might be steps,

941
00:47:24,596 --> 00:47:26,956
Speaker 1: and then somewhere along the way you could discover the

942
00:47:26,996 --> 00:47:31,076
Speaker 1: beauty of allegory. I'm sure I have been writing about

943
00:47:31,156 --> 00:47:33,556
Speaker 1: the things that are going on right now in my

944
00:47:33,716 --> 00:47:37,076
Speaker 1: life for quite a while. You know, I'm currently writing

945
00:47:37,116 --> 00:47:40,076
Speaker 1: about those things, but on the page, it might look

946
00:47:40,156 --> 00:47:43,196
Speaker 1: like I'm writing about a butterfly or a car accident.

947
00:47:43,796 --> 00:47:46,276
Speaker 1: That's the beauty of allegory. You don't have to know

948
00:47:46,996 --> 00:47:49,796
Speaker 1: what you're talking about all the time. You know, you

949
00:47:49,836 --> 00:47:52,916
Speaker 1: don't have to know what the overarching idea. Your brain

950
00:47:53,036 --> 00:47:55,916
Speaker 1: will work on that level if you just focus on

951
00:47:55,996 --> 00:48:00,116
Speaker 1: details and rhyme and making something beautiful happen eventually by

952
00:48:00,156 --> 00:48:02,596
Speaker 1: the end of it. Very often I look down and go, oh,

953
00:48:02,636 --> 00:48:04,676
Speaker 1: I just wrote a song about my marriage, or I

954
00:48:04,756 --> 00:48:07,116
Speaker 1: just wrote a song about my child. This whole time,

955
00:48:07,156 --> 00:48:09,876
Speaker 1: I thought I was writing about football or something. You know.

956
00:48:10,116 --> 00:48:14,276
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, fascinating. I forgot to ask, you wrote

957
00:48:14,676 --> 00:48:18,516
Speaker 2: whether Van's on set of Killsing the fire Moon, right?

958
00:48:18,596 --> 00:48:21,876
Speaker 1: Yeah? Almost all of it? Yeah, A good chunk of

959
00:48:21,916 --> 00:48:24,036
Speaker 1: that record I wrote on the set.

960
00:48:24,596 --> 00:48:28,596
Speaker 2: Did the character you were playing influence your point of

961
00:48:28,636 --> 00:48:30,796
Speaker 2: view as a songwriter at that moment or was it

962
00:48:30,916 --> 00:48:32,116
Speaker 2: easy to keep that separate.

963
00:48:32,236 --> 00:48:36,196
Speaker 1: I don't know that that bill influenced that, but I

964
00:48:36,276 --> 00:48:38,996
Speaker 1: definitely know that the work that I was doing influenced

965
00:48:39,036 --> 00:48:43,436
Speaker 1: it because, on one hand, the most obvious way was

966
00:48:43,516 --> 00:48:48,636
Speaker 1: just watching Marty conduct the whole orchestra, and the fact

967
00:48:48,636 --> 00:48:52,516
Speaker 1: that he was open to hearing ideas from other people.

968
00:48:52,636 --> 00:48:54,556
Speaker 1: And when I went out there, I thought, either it's

969
00:48:54,596 --> 00:48:58,236
Speaker 1: going to be he's going to be a micromanager and

970
00:48:58,276 --> 00:49:00,436
Speaker 1: he's going to be in on every decision, or he's

971
00:49:00,676 --> 00:49:02,396
Speaker 1: not going to be there that much. I did not

972
00:49:02,596 --> 00:49:05,356
Speaker 1: expect him to have that kind of perfect mix of

973
00:49:05,396 --> 00:49:08,516
Speaker 1: those things where he was active. He was on set

974
00:49:08,596 --> 00:49:11,196
Speaker 1: every day, working out in the heat. Even at eighty

975
00:49:11,276 --> 00:49:13,796
Speaker 1: years old. He would make the l's with his fingers

976
00:49:13,876 --> 00:49:15,516
Speaker 1: and look at the shot and say, I want it

977
00:49:15,556 --> 00:49:19,156
Speaker 1: to look like this, you know, amazing, amazing, crazy. It's

978
00:49:19,196 --> 00:49:21,796
Speaker 1: like a movie about a movie about a movie. But

979
00:49:22,116 --> 00:49:24,556
Speaker 1: you know, there was one night where it was just

980
00:49:24,676 --> 00:49:26,996
Speaker 1: me and the scene, and so it was Marty and

981
00:49:27,036 --> 00:49:31,076
Speaker 1: then the ad and all the crew, and I had

982
00:49:31,076 --> 00:49:34,076
Speaker 1: the pistols. When they throw the dog on my front step,

983
00:49:34,196 --> 00:49:36,156
Speaker 1: the dead dog right before I get blown up and

984
00:49:36,196 --> 00:49:39,156
Speaker 1: I walk out. It's part of that montage. And I

985
00:49:39,196 --> 00:49:40,956
Speaker 1: walk out the front door and I see the dog

986
00:49:40,996 --> 00:49:43,636
Speaker 1: and I've got my pistol in my hand, and you know,

987
00:49:43,716 --> 00:49:46,516
Speaker 1: I thought, man, I gotta do this. So first I said,

988
00:49:46,556 --> 00:49:49,116
Speaker 1: I think we need to load this pistol because you know,

989
00:49:49,156 --> 00:49:51,116
Speaker 1: the weight's going to need to look right, and if

990
00:49:51,116 --> 00:49:52,596
Speaker 1: they see it from the end of the barrel for

991
00:49:52,636 --> 00:49:55,596
Speaker 1: any reason, you're gonna want to see slugs and you know.

992
00:49:55,676 --> 00:49:58,596
Speaker 1: So the prop master did the thing where they had

993
00:49:58,676 --> 00:50:02,716
Speaker 1: taken each shellcasing, they had pried the lead out and

994
00:50:02,756 --> 00:50:06,276
Speaker 1: then they had swabbed the inside out, dropped one bebe

995
00:50:06,596 --> 00:50:10,156
Speaker 1: inside the shell, and then pressed the lead back in.

996
00:50:10,636 --> 00:50:12,716
Speaker 1: Then they would shake it. Every time they would load

997
00:50:12,836 --> 00:50:14,476
Speaker 1: one end, they would shake it by my ear and

998
00:50:14,476 --> 00:50:17,156
Speaker 1: I would have to verbally confirm I hear the BB

999
00:50:17,356 --> 00:50:18,956
Speaker 1: and then they would put it into the pistol and

1000
00:50:18,996 --> 00:50:20,836
Speaker 1: then shake it and put it into the pistol and

1001
00:50:21,636 --> 00:50:24,276
Speaker 1: just to make sure. So that's like when that accidental

1002
00:50:24,276 --> 00:50:27,076
Speaker 1: shooting happened on the rust set. I was like, something's

1003
00:50:27,156 --> 00:50:29,956
Speaker 1: way off here because I could not have shot anybody

1004
00:50:29,996 --> 00:50:33,396
Speaker 1: if I had tried. But after that, I thought, you know,

1005
00:50:33,476 --> 00:50:36,636
Speaker 1: this is a single action pistol. And be being from Alabama,

1006
00:50:36,836 --> 00:50:38,716
Speaker 1: I used to have a pistol very similar to the

1007
00:50:38,716 --> 00:50:42,236
Speaker 1: one that I was holding in a movie, and I

1008
00:50:42,276 --> 00:50:44,636
Speaker 1: thought these Yankees don't know about single action. I might

1009
00:50:44,636 --> 00:50:47,396
Speaker 1: have to say something, you know. And if I walk

1010
00:50:47,436 --> 00:50:49,316
Speaker 1: out on my step, I see the dog, I'm not

1011
00:50:49,356 --> 00:50:51,116
Speaker 1: sure that it's dead yet. I don't know if the

1012
00:50:51,116 --> 00:50:53,876
Speaker 1: people are still in the yard. I'm cocking the pistol

1013
00:50:54,276 --> 00:50:56,276
Speaker 1: because with a single action, if you don't cock it,

1014
00:50:56,316 --> 00:50:58,596
Speaker 1: you can't fire it. That's why in the old Westerns

1015
00:50:58,636 --> 00:51:01,836
Speaker 1: they would hold the trigger down and fan the hammer

1016
00:51:02,116 --> 00:51:04,636
Speaker 1: like this. Oh yeah, because it's the hammer that does

1017
00:51:04,676 --> 00:51:07,636
Speaker 1: the firing. Like with double action, when you start to

1018
00:51:07,676 --> 00:51:10,836
Speaker 1: pull the trigger, the pressure causes the hammer to come

1019
00:51:10,876 --> 00:51:13,556
Speaker 1: back and then go forward, but with single action, you

1020
00:51:13,556 --> 00:51:16,236
Speaker 1: have to pull the hammer back first. The trigger all

1021
00:51:16,236 --> 00:51:18,836
Speaker 1: that does is release it, so the hammer goes forward.

1022
00:51:19,276 --> 00:51:21,156
Speaker 1: So that means every time you fire, you've got to

1023
00:51:21,196 --> 00:51:24,236
Speaker 1: cock and fire, cock and fire. And so I just

1024
00:51:24,276 --> 00:51:25,916
Speaker 1: tapped Marty on the shoulder and I was like, I

1025
00:51:25,916 --> 00:51:28,116
Speaker 1: think I would cock the pistol. And Marty said, you

1026
00:51:28,156 --> 00:51:29,636
Speaker 1: think you'd cock it? I was like yeah, and I

1027
00:51:29,676 --> 00:51:32,076
Speaker 1: explained why. He said, all right, let's shoot it. So

1028
00:51:32,116 --> 00:51:34,396
Speaker 1: they shot, and it took another three or four hours.

1029
00:51:34,796 --> 00:51:37,036
Speaker 1: They shot the scene of me cocking the pistol, and

1030
00:51:37,036 --> 00:51:39,116
Speaker 1: then when I saw the movie. It was in the movie,

1031
00:51:39,116 --> 00:51:43,996
Speaker 1: it was the most satisfying click. But taking away from that,

1032
00:51:44,076 --> 00:51:46,236
Speaker 1: you know, I went in to produce Weather Veins that

1033
00:51:46,276 --> 00:51:49,716
Speaker 1: I'd written mostly out there, and I thought, man, there's

1034
00:51:49,716 --> 00:51:52,596
Speaker 1: a way to do this where you can retain your

1035
00:51:52,716 --> 00:51:56,996
Speaker 1: vision and still hear what everybody around you has to say,

1036
00:51:57,276 --> 00:52:01,676
Speaker 1: and you can let them enjoy participating and making the

1037
00:52:01,756 --> 00:52:05,236
Speaker 1: project a better thing, and still this is your movie

1038
00:52:05,316 --> 00:52:07,756
Speaker 1: or this is your record, because nobody had any question

1039
00:52:07,876 --> 00:52:10,036
Speaker 1: by the end of it who had direct did that movie?

1040
00:52:10,436 --> 00:52:12,476
Speaker 1: That was really sort of inspiring for me.

1041
00:52:12,796 --> 00:52:16,676
Speaker 2: You know, that's an incredible thing. Yeah, because making music

1042
00:52:16,676 --> 00:52:18,556
Speaker 2: can be such a singular.

1043
00:52:18,596 --> 00:52:20,956
Speaker 1: Load, like yeah, lonely.

1044
00:52:20,636 --> 00:52:25,156
Speaker 2: Solitary thing, and making a film, by necessity, is involved

1045
00:52:25,236 --> 00:52:28,356
Speaker 2: so many more people beyond the director, writer or the

1046
00:52:28,556 --> 00:52:29,396
Speaker 2: tour you know.

1047
00:52:29,556 --> 00:52:32,596
Speaker 1: There are hundreds of people, hundreds of people on that set.

1048
00:52:32,796 --> 00:52:35,396
Speaker 1: But you know, he was listening to people and it

1049
00:52:35,476 --> 00:52:38,076
Speaker 1: made for a better movie and it was still Marty's movie.

1050
00:52:38,116 --> 00:52:39,516
Speaker 1: So that was a good thing to see.

1051
00:52:40,276 --> 00:52:41,156
Speaker 2: Was your band grateful?

1052
00:52:41,516 --> 00:52:43,676
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we had a great time. We had

1053
00:52:43,716 --> 00:52:46,476
Speaker 1: a blast, you know, because it was like, you know,

1054
00:52:46,476 --> 00:52:47,996
Speaker 1: I would say, why don't you go mess with this?

1055
00:52:48,036 --> 00:52:49,876
Speaker 1: For a while, see what you come up with and band.

1056
00:52:49,916 --> 00:52:52,556
Speaker 1: There's nothing that a musician likes to hear more than

1057
00:52:52,556 --> 00:52:54,916
Speaker 1: that when you're in the studio. Hell yeah, I'll go there,

1058
00:52:54,996 --> 00:52:56,836
Speaker 1: turn some knobs and push some buttons.

1059
00:52:57,116 --> 00:52:58,836
Speaker 2: I'm glad they had a great arc and I was

1060
00:52:58,636 --> 00:53:01,156
Speaker 2: so sad to see him in the movie. I wanted

1061
00:53:01,156 --> 00:53:03,236
Speaker 2: to be on tour reunions and just mowing the lawn.

1062
00:53:03,916 --> 00:53:05,756
Speaker 1: I get out there, I know, I don't know.

1063
00:53:05,876 --> 00:53:09,436
Speaker 2: It's fulfilling studio time. And he's out there with you now.

1064
00:53:09,516 --> 00:53:12,836
Speaker 1: Knock on wood. The quarantine is behind us, I hope.

1065
00:53:12,876 --> 00:53:16,276
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, same, yeah. Hey man, Well thanks for

1066
00:53:16,316 --> 00:53:17,156
Speaker 2: taking the time to chat.

1067
00:53:17,196 --> 00:53:17,316
Speaker 1: Man.

1068
00:53:17,356 --> 00:53:19,116
Speaker 2: It's like I wish I could thank you. I want

1069
00:53:19,116 --> 00:53:20,996
Speaker 2: to do a damn documentary on that, so.

1070
00:53:20,996 --> 00:53:23,876
Speaker 1: Good documentary on it. Yeah yeah, well, thank you. Good

1071
00:53:23,916 --> 00:53:25,756
Speaker 1: to talk to you, Jessin. I appreciate your time.

1072
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Speaker 2: Thanks to Jason Isbel for the chat. We'll be rooting

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Speaker 2: for Killers of the Flower Moon at the Oscars. You

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Speaker 2: can hear all of our favorite Isabel songs throughout his

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Speaker 2: career on a playlist at Broken record podcast dot com.

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Speaker 2: Subscribe to our YouTube channel at YouTube dot com slash

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Speaker 2: Broken Record Podcast where you can find all of our

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Speaker 2: new episodes. You can follow us on Twitter at broken Record.

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Speaker 2: Broken Record is produced and edited by Leah Rose, with

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Speaker 2: marketing help from Eric Sandler and Jordan McMillan. Our engineer

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Speaker 2: is Ben Tollinay. Broken Record is a production of Pushkin Industries.

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Speaker 2: If you love this show and others from Pushkin, consider

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Speaker 2: subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin Plus is a podcast description

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Speaker 2: that offers bonus content and ad free listening for four

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Speaker 2: ninety nine a month. Look for Pushkin Plus on Apple Podcasts, subscriptions,

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Speaker 2: and if you like this show, please remember to share, rate,

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Speaker 2: and review us on your podcast app. Our theme music's

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Speaker 2: by Kenny Beats. I'm justin Richmond.