Speaker 1: I'm Emily Chang, and this is the circuit today. Modern
Speaker 1: love is basically synonymous with mobile love. There are countless
Speaker 1: dating apps to choose from and an overwhelming amount of
Speaker 1: potential matches. And while some people think apps level the
Speaker 1: playing field, others haven't been so lucky in love. I'm
Speaker 1: sitting down with Bubble founder and CEO Whitney wolf Hurt
Speaker 1: to talk about how more people are turning online for
Speaker 1: all kinds of relationships.
Speaker 2: So I'm very obsessed with this mission of really helping
Speaker 2: and toxic relationships and inch our way out of loneliness
Speaker 2: and social isolation.
Speaker 1: Whitney started her journey at Tinder, and yes there was
Speaker 1: some drama. She then went on to found Bumble and
Speaker 1: became the youngest woman to take a company public. She
Speaker 1: has her own stories of heartbreak in part why she
Speaker 1: wanted to change how people meet online. Here's my conversation
Speaker 1: with Bumble CEO and founder Whitney Wolf Heard.
Speaker 3: So dating has changed a lot since I was on
Speaker 3: the market at least, and maybe you and I've been
Speaker 3: researching some new terms that people use these days, and
Speaker 3: I want to run them by you great and see
Speaker 3: if you know what they mean. Dating dictionary.
Speaker 4: Yes, ghosting what is it?
Speaker 2: It's rude and it's basically when people disappear on you
Speaker 2: with no explanation or reason. Yeah, they go dark orbiting.
Speaker 2: Ooh so I've heard about this one. I am not
Speaker 2: the coolest of the folks that run bumble at this point,
Speaker 2: so I'm slightly out of the.
Speaker 4: Modern dating term loop.
Speaker 2: But I think it's when they circle around you and
Speaker 2: kind of show up intermittently.
Speaker 3: You're dating someone who says they're not interested, but then
Speaker 3: they still like your social media posts.
Speaker 2: Right, so it's confusing, right, Like, what's up with that?
Speaker 4: Right? Okay?
Speaker 3: Riz or having riz zero idea? That is shorthand for charisma.
Speaker 4: Oh, who know, right? I like it.
Speaker 2: Breadcrumbing, Yes, have heard about this one. This is where
Speaker 2: they basically string you along.
Speaker 3: They string you along so they like leave little likes they.
Speaker 2: Show you, like red croporatic attention to keep you interested,
Speaker 2: but nothing enough to really be meaningful.
Speaker 4: They never follow through. Correct Okay.
Speaker 3: Cobwebbing never heard of this one. So cobwebbing, as I
Speaker 3: understand it is when you clean out the cobwebs you
Speaker 3: break up with someone, You get rid of the mementos,
Speaker 3: the photos, you delete their phone number.
Speaker 4: On situationship, Yes, for sure.
Speaker 2: This is very gen z. Lots of situationships that I
Speaker 2: hear about.
Speaker 3: So that's when you're not dating, but not not dating.
Speaker 2: It's a situation and because of that, it feels like
Speaker 2: a relationship.
Speaker 3: And so it's a situationship. Soft launching, taking it slow,
Speaker 3: soft launching.
Speaker 4: That would be good.
Speaker 3: Soft launching, I believe means when you post on social
Speaker 3: media indicating that you're in a relationship, but you don't
Speaker 3: reveal the person's identity.
Speaker 4: Ooh, that's a soft launch. Fascinating, So we did that.
Speaker 4: That was our soft launch for the ripe. Now are
Speaker 4: really going to dig it?
Speaker 3: Bumble's been public for two years now, a couple of years.
Speaker 3: What surprised you most about being a public company? Like,
Speaker 3: do you feel you've aged two years or twenty two?
Speaker 2: I think that what has surprised me the most is
Speaker 2: how short term the market can be. And I am
Speaker 2: such a long term founder and I am such a
Speaker 2: long term thinker. We operate with mission and vision and
Speaker 2: customer obsession, and it's fascinating to see how the street
Speaker 2: doesn't always think about the long term opportunity. And so
Speaker 2: that's been really remarkable to me with being introduced to
Speaker 2: this public environment.
Speaker 4: How's mom life with two?
Speaker 2: Mom life with two is chaotic and magical all at once.
Speaker 2: So grateful to have the experience. But mom life with
Speaker 2: two and a public company, it's hectic. But you know what,
Speaker 2: it's amazing and I'm very fortunate to be in the
Speaker 2: position I'm in, So we make the most of it.
Speaker 4: Get work.
Speaker 3: You've gone from startup to Unicorn to being the youngest
Speaker 3: woman to take a company public. And I've heard you
Speaker 3: say that you were really motivated by the fact that
Speaker 3: a lot of people didn't think you could do this, or.
Speaker 4: That you were underestimated.
Speaker 3: What were those red flags along the way or what
Speaker 3: were the signs along the way that made you think
Speaker 3: they don't think I got this?
Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I think even today I'm underestimated, and I think even
Speaker 2: today Bumble is underestimated in terms of what we can
Speaker 2: be and what we can do in the world. You know,
Speaker 2: if you look at what is going on in our
Speaker 2: world today, with all time high searches around how do
Speaker 2: I meet people, all time high self isolation, all time
Speaker 2: high sadness because of our phones, we are one of
Speaker 2: the very rare technology businesses that actually wants to help
Speaker 2: you get into the real world and meet people and
Speaker 2: build healthy relationships. And I'm not entirely sure people realize
Speaker 2: just how big that can be.
Speaker 3: When you started Bumble, you wanted a safe place for
Speaker 3: women to make the first move. What was the genesis
Speaker 3: of that decision when you were building.
Speaker 2: I would say the beginning of Bumble was really the
Speaker 2: intersection of a few problems, a few heartbreaking moments. And
Speaker 2: that's who I am. I like to identify a problem
Speaker 2: and then fix it. That's just kind of the way
Speaker 2: I operate. And when we set out to build Bumble,
Speaker 2: I think the problems were really first and foremost women
Speaker 2: never went first in their relationship, which led to the
Speaker 2: sea of toxic relationships. Everywhere I looked, someone was in
Speaker 2: a heartbreaking situation or situationship. But it was really more
Speaker 2: than just lighthearted situationship talk. This was really quite toxic stuff,
Speaker 2: abusive relationships, degrading relationship relationships where women really felt like
Speaker 2: second rate citizens. And this was something that I had
Speaker 2: faced personally, but had seen from so many people in
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 3: And you went through your own bad breakup or my
Speaker 3: own relationship, my own.
Speaker 2: Several experiences of the dynamics of inequity in relationships.
Speaker 4: So that was the first thing.
Speaker 2: But then it also boiled down to a more lighthearted
Speaker 2: version of that, which was why was I not allowed
Speaker 2: to text a guy first in college? Why was that
Speaker 2: seen as a cardinal sin by my group of girlfriends?
Speaker 4: Because of these rules of love?
Speaker 2: And for literally thousands of years, this has been the
Speaker 2: rule of love. You know, look at how women have
Speaker 2: evolved over centuries in love captured dowry, exchange for property.
Speaker 2: This is the genesis of love. And so you had
Speaker 2: this history of love and then the explosion of modern
Speaker 2: love and mobile love, and the Internet was quite literally
Speaker 2: engineered with men in mind. Right, It was mostly these
Speaker 2: social products where men I'm not bashing them, I'm just
Speaker 2: saying what it is. There was a lot of men
Speaker 2: that were solving problems that they experienced right through engineering.
Speaker 3: Hot or not, face mash, just those.
Speaker 4: Kind of things.
Speaker 2: You can name ten more versions of those, and that
Speaker 2: is how we ended up connecting and dating on the Internet.
Speaker 2: And so when I found myself at the front line
Speaker 2: of that, I was seeing the intersection of broken love,
Speaker 2: women being forgotten in love with the explosion of toxicity
Speaker 2: and harassment on the phone. And it was really that
Speaker 2: online abuse, that online hatred paired with women being seen
Speaker 2: as second That really was the genesis of bumble.
Speaker 4: That's where it came from.
Speaker 3: Now, you also co founded Tinder, and as I understand,
Speaker 3: you came up with the name and you also helped
Speaker 3: sparkets run on college campuses.
Speaker 4: Yeah, tell me about that.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So you know, we were a small and passionate young
Speaker 2: team and we were starting Tinder really as a side
Speaker 2: project inside of a tech incubator, which felt very foreign
Speaker 2: at the time. I remember being teased by my girlfriends
Speaker 2: graduating college for going to work at a tech incubator.
Speaker 4: They thought that was pretty nerdy when.
Speaker 2: They were all taking jobs at fashion houses and magazines
Speaker 2: and banks. But it felt modern and it felt like
Speaker 2: the future, and I'll never forget. I think it was
Speaker 2: our very first major college launch. I went to SMEU,
Speaker 2: where I'd graduated from, with just a couple hundred dollars
Speaker 2: for marketing and the logos of Tinder and a couple
Speaker 2: tender t shirts that said don't ask for my number,
Speaker 2: find me on Tinder. But my college girlfriends that were
Speaker 2: still in college I just graduated. We went out to
Speaker 2: the bars and they wore the t shirts and when
Speaker 2: someone would ask for their number, they'd say, find me
Speaker 2: on Tender. And we went to the sororities and the fraternities,
Speaker 2: and I went to Kinko's and printed a thousand pieces
Speaker 2: of find Me on Tender, find Out who Likes You
Speaker 2: on Campus flyers. And that was kind of a part
Speaker 2: of the beginning of the the wildfire, if.
Speaker 4: You will, of that product, tinder Box. Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 3: You ultimately left Tinder, and you sued Tinder for harassment
Speaker 3: and discrimination, You signed an NDA, you settled. I know
Speaker 3: you can't talk about the specifics, but how did that
Speaker 3: experience change you?
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, you can't grow without discomfort.
Speaker 4: Mm and I would say it didn't change me. It
Speaker 4: broke me. M it did it broke me.
Speaker 2: I was a twenty four year old woman, and I
Speaker 2: had been working so passionately and with so much dedicate
Speaker 2: and so much conviction in what we were doing for
Speaker 2: two years straight, straight out of college, and all of
Speaker 2: a sudden, I found myself, you know, at the bottom
Speaker 2: of the rocket ship launcher by myself, and this rocket
Speaker 2: was just still going, which was Tender, and it was
Speaker 2: horrifying because I lost not only my career, but I
Speaker 2: lost my self worth, I lost my confidence, I lost
Speaker 2: really the community that I had been surrounded by for
Speaker 2: every waking hour of those two years, and I really
Speaker 2: thought it was over. Not to mention, I was this,
Speaker 2: you know, young woman from Salt Lake City, and I
Speaker 2: was on the cover of every major tech headline, and
Speaker 2: my name was being thrown around the internet like you
Speaker 2: can't even imagine, with with very little understanding of what
Speaker 2: was even going on. It was almost like I was
Speaker 2: in a store and this was before me too, This
Speaker 2: is before times up, this is before the tech conversation
Speaker 2: about how women are treated.
Speaker 4: This is before all of that.
Speaker 2: So I felt incredibly alone and scared and abandoned. But
Speaker 2: in those dark, dark, dark, very harrowing moments, I was
Speaker 2: able to be still enough to identify something bigger than me,
Speaker 2: which was that the Internet was broken and the way
Speaker 2: we were treating women in relationships was wrong, and that
Speaker 2: something had to change.
Speaker 3: Well, you were on the rocket launcher and you said, hey,
Speaker 3: I got a different idea.
Speaker 4: Maybe I can use this launch pad too. Yeah.
Speaker 3: For a long time now, tender has been thought of
Speaker 3: as a hookup ap. You know, this wiping rights, wiping
Speaker 3: left thing has given online dating a bad name.
Speaker 4: How hard was it to then start Bumble.
Speaker 3: With that as a perception point.
Speaker 2: It's interesting because, really, had everyone just paused for two
Speaker 2: seconds and said, maybe we should just take a moment
Speaker 2: and think about what this experience is like for women?
Speaker 2: What do women want when they date? What do women
Speaker 2: want when they connect? What do women want in their lives?
Speaker 2: Would have been a really easy answer, And that answer
Speaker 2: to me came in the form of Bumble and so
Speaker 2: on Bumble, which actually was a departure from the original idea,
Speaker 2: which was really meant to not be in dating at all.
Speaker 2: Trust me, the last thing I wanted to do is
Speaker 2: go get back into the dating app world.
Speaker 3: So you didn't even intend to start another dating app?
Speaker 4: Absolutely not.
Speaker 2: I was actually wire framing an app based on kindness,
Speaker 2: better behavior, and compliments. I wanted to create a viral
Speaker 2: social product for girls and women where they would treat
Speaker 2: each other with kindness and they would actually for the
Speaker 2: first time, have a positive social network, to hopefully change
Speaker 2: the way we talked to each other on the end,
Speaker 2: and to create a kinder ecosystem to be the foundation
Speaker 2: of relationships and then you know, go and make plans
Speaker 2: and the universe will laugh. So one thing led to
Speaker 2: another and here we are.
Speaker 4: Best like plan.
Speaker 3: So, wasn't it There was a there there? There was
Speaker 3: a Russian entrepreneur who was behind badou right, the European
Speaker 3: dating site, And didn't he kind of pull you in and'd.
Speaker 4: Say so about this? Yeah?
Speaker 2: There, Yes, So the founder of Badoo had contacted me
Speaker 2: during the lawsuit, and I was taking no emails and calls.
Speaker 2: I was in a really bad emotional place. I was
Speaker 2: certainly not out there networking off of this headline. In fact,
Speaker 2: I was hibernating and I was being reclusive, and he
Speaker 2: was persistent. He wanted to talk, and so ultimately the
Speaker 2: stars aligned and I agreed to meet with him, and
Speaker 2: he actually tried to recruit me to be the head
Speaker 2: of marketing for his European dating app. I politely said,
Speaker 2: absolutely not, but I'm working on an idea to change
Speaker 2: the world. I want to empower girls and women through
Speaker 2: the first ever positive social platform. M there's nowhere on
Speaker 2: the Internet that treats us well or encourage us good behavior.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go do that. And he said, nice, Nice,
Speaker 2: I'd like you to do a dating app with me.
Speaker 2: So no, that's not up for option. I'm going to
Speaker 2: do a woman's empowerment product. Long story short. This went
Speaker 2: back and forth for months, and I said, you know,
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go raise money and do this. He said, okay,
Speaker 2: I'll make you a deal. Instead of raising from someone else,
Speaker 2: I will back you. I will contribute resources and experience
Speaker 2: from my bad team. And I know you want to
Speaker 2: be founder and CEO of your own thing, and that's great.
Speaker 2: You are founder, you are CEO, this is your project.
Speaker 2: But let me help you, and let's let's let's do
Speaker 2: a partnership. And after a lot of back and forth,
Speaker 2: I kind of felt, you know, do I have to lose?
Speaker 2: I can't be more untouchable than I can be right now?
Speaker 2: What can get worse than this moment? And so, in hindsight,
Speaker 2: what a blessing to have gone through that, because when
Speaker 2: you have nowhere else to turn and things can't get
Speaker 2: in your mind more stressful or more disempowering than that moment,
Speaker 2: it's actually a really amazing opportunity because you can only
Speaker 2: go up from there.
Speaker 4: So you start saying yes, and.
Speaker 2: I eventually agreed to doing this under a lot of
Speaker 2: different parameters of founder and CEO.
Speaker 4: Women have to be in control. What does this look like?
Speaker 2: And that would have been the beginning of our bumble journey.
Speaker 3: What are the lessons that stick with you from that time?
Speaker 2: So the lessons are plentiful, but I think ultimately it's
Speaker 2: what you do with things when things happen right, It's
Speaker 2: how you respond, and it's how you go forward. And
Speaker 2: I can't change anything about the tender times. I can't
Speaker 2: change anything about the entire journey. All you can do
Speaker 2: is say, what are my options from here? What can
Speaker 2: I do to improve? What can I do to choose
Speaker 2: the best path forward for what we have in front
Speaker 2: of us? And it was a great partnership while it lasted,
Speaker 2: and everything is a time, a place in a chapter.
Speaker 2: Business is like seasons, right, nothing is always forever. And
Speaker 2: so while that was a a great experience and we
Speaker 2: would never have had the opportunities we had without the
Speaker 2: duced partnership. He ultimately ended up selling his take to
Speaker 2: Blackstone in twenty nineteen. I became the group level CEO
Speaker 2: and then we would go public shortly thereafter.
Speaker 3: So now that you're here, we're here. How would you
Speaker 3: describe your CEO style? For example, I just interviewed Brian Chusky.
Speaker 3: He says he gets really deep in.
Speaker 4: The details, really deep in the details.
Speaker 3: And then of course there are folks who are more
Speaker 3: big picture, what's Whitney style.
Speaker 2: So I definitely get in the detail else probably too
Speaker 2: much for some folks liking, but that is the style
Speaker 2: of a founder, in my opinion. Founder CEOs care about
Speaker 2: their business in a way that a CEO just can't,
Speaker 2: and so for better or for worse, I get very
Speaker 2: involved in the details. But I think the style I've
Speaker 2: always had is just lead with authenticity.
Speaker 4: I try to be kind. That's not nice.
Speaker 2: Nice is fake, Kind is honest, Kind is respectful, but
Speaker 2: truthful and kind is not always what you want to hear.
Speaker 2: Nice is, but nice is not serving anyone. So I
Speaker 2: really try to lead with kindness, and I try to
Speaker 2: lead with humanity and empathy and really putting myself in
Speaker 2: people's shoes before making decisions.
Speaker 4: I am who I am.
Speaker 2: I really don't put on a face or a mask
Speaker 2: really in any situation.
Speaker 4: Has that been hard to do?
Speaker 3: Especially as a woman CEO who's constantly critiqued and judged
Speaker 3: in maybe ways that male CEOs are not.
Speaker 2: I mean, I catch myself. I did it with you today.
Speaker 2: I asked if a certain shirt was appropriate or not right.
Speaker 2: These are the places where I catch myself saying would
Speaker 2: someone else say that?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: But candidly, I come back to that time post Tinder,
Speaker 2: where I was being judged, scrutinized. I was called every
Speaker 2: name in the book, every name publicly, privately. I was shunned,
Speaker 2: And in that moment came freedom m because I realized
Speaker 2: this thing we all fear people not liking us, people
Speaker 2: judging us, people not approving of us. I was right
Speaker 2: there in the middle of it. I lived it, and
Speaker 2: I said, wait a second, Okay, I'm still breathing. I
Speaker 2: got through it, so now let's just go. The landscape
Speaker 2: has changed dramatically. There's Tinder, there's Tinge, there's match dot.
Speaker 3: Com, there's Rayah and plenty of Fish and the League
Speaker 3: and anymore.
Speaker 4: That I don't do you know about how does the
Speaker 4: battle of dating apps play out?
Speaker 2: I think it's great that there are so many people
Speaker 2: out there trying to build connection vehicles, right, but what
Speaker 2: sets us apart from everyone else is the mission we
Speaker 2: are really here to do more than just to build
Speaker 2: a dating app. Yes, are those highly lucrative businesses. Are
Speaker 2: they needed, for sure, But we're really building something that
Speaker 2: no one's built before. Well, we're building an entire relationship business.
Speaker 2: We are in the business of love more broadly.
Speaker 3: Right, you're building a place where people can also make friends,
Speaker 3: find course partners as well.
Speaker 4: That was always the vision.
Speaker 2: So when starting Bumble, even in dating app form, I
Speaker 2: have all the early all the early drawings and paperwork.
Speaker 2: This is not a dating app. This is a relationship company.
Speaker 2: This is a company to build community, to find business opportunity,
Speaker 2: to find friends, to find someone to lean on. This
Speaker 2: is a place to share your struggles and your joys
Speaker 2: with others. And it's a place to find love if
Speaker 2: that's what you're looking for. But it's also become a
Speaker 2: self love brand. Be the CEO your parents wanted you
Speaker 2: to marry and then find someone you actually like. It
Speaker 2: is so much more than just an app you download
Speaker 2: and swipeswipeswipe.
Speaker 3: So you've spun off BFF, what's.
Speaker 4: The goal there?
Speaker 2: We believe that the friendship category can be just as
Speaker 2: important as romantic find someone to go out with on
Speaker 2: a Friday night, find a group of girlfriends to laugh
Speaker 2: with and do brunch with or whatever you're looking for.
Speaker 2: But also maybe find someone to date if you're ready
Speaker 2: for it. And then what happens when you're in a relationship.
Speaker 2: Then you go to our product official where you and
Speaker 2: your new partner can keep your relationship healthy, make sure
Speaker 2: it's equitable, make sure you're feeling self love and so
Speaker 2: BFF Bumble four Friends is based on our standalone vehicle
Speaker 2: to build community, to find anyone you're looking for on
Speaker 2: a Tuesday, a Saturday, a Sunday, long term, to build
Speaker 2: that core network that makes your life fulfilling. Because our
Speaker 2: life is basically just a group of relationships.
Speaker 4: So how well is that working?
Speaker 3: Because I think a lot of people do still think
Speaker 3: of Bumble it's a dating app.
Speaker 4: That's what you do there.
Speaker 2: The reason why we launched a standalone product for BFF
Speaker 2: was there was so much success inside the core dating app.
Speaker 2: So I want you to imagine you had a bunch
Speaker 2: of young women that were married or in serious relationships
Speaker 2: downloading a dating app to find friends. And so we
Speaker 2: felt that it was time to really unlock our potential
Speaker 2: and to spin out a standalone product where the folks
Speaker 2: that were single and looking to date as well could
Speaker 2: still enjoy the dating app and the friend finding mode
Speaker 2: all in one on core Bumble, but those that are
Speaker 2: not looking to date will have a platform dedicated to
Speaker 2: friendship and community.
Speaker 3: You're in a lot of countries already. Of course, you've
Speaker 3: made a bunch of acquisitions. Where do you want Bubble
Speaker 3: to go next? You know what kind of global expansion
Speaker 3: do you hope to see and global growth.
Speaker 2: So I've always said, if women are there, we're going
Speaker 2: because candidly, the reality of the global state of women
Speaker 2: is not great. We are one hundred plus years away
Speaker 2: from any form of real gender parity. And so it
Speaker 2: is my firm belief in our teams firm belief that
Speaker 2: if we want to make the world better, we have
Speaker 2: to start by enhancing the lives of women. And we
Speaker 2: believe that the easiest way and the best way, the
Speaker 2: most profound way to really create better, safer communities is
Speaker 2: through better relationships. If you have healthy relationships, you have
Speaker 2: healthier societies, you have healthier communities. And so we are
Speaker 2: going to quite literally scale this across the entire globe.
Speaker 1: We'll continue this conversation after this quick break.
Speaker 3: I want to talk a little bit about the technology
Speaker 3: behind it, because algorithms seem to rule the world right
Speaker 3: now and everything around us, and can also dictate.
Speaker 4: Your fate on a dating app. How does Bumble decide
Speaker 4: who to show you? So?
Speaker 2: Algorithm, machine learning and AI are absolute, absolutely incredible tools
Speaker 2: to help us better understand relevance, compatibility, and what you're
Speaker 2: looking for, But it doesn't determine your fate because the
Speaker 2: beauty of Bumble is that you get to set the
Speaker 2: tone of what you're looking for. You're setting the standards
Speaker 2: of what type of relationship you want. We have several
Speaker 2: filters and options and parameters that you get to put
Speaker 2: in place, and we show you people that match that
Speaker 2: that are within that criteria set. And we also use
Speaker 2: a lot of really impressive AI technology to detect bad
Speaker 2: actors before it even happens. So if we feel that
Speaker 2: someone has a propensity to be abusive or dangerous or harassing,
Speaker 2: we really do our best to prevent things before they
Speaker 2: even happen. And so I would actually argue that it
Speaker 2: supercharges fate. If you were to walk into a bar
Speaker 2: waiting for that perfect someone, you'd have to be there
Speaker 2: at the right moment at the exact right time and
Speaker 2: place Bumble for the same cost of a couple drinks
Speaker 2: at the bar. Gives you unlimited access to people in
Speaker 2: your area who might be on the other side of
Speaker 2: town or showed up at the bar five minutes after
Speaker 2: you left.
Speaker 3: If Bumble's algorithms were perfect, everyone would be able to
Speaker 3: find a perfect match right away. Isn't the goal to
Speaker 3: let the algorithms play it out a little bit, play
Speaker 3: the dating game out a little bit, and drag out
Speaker 3: the chase.
Speaker 2: The goal is to find you someone that you want
Speaker 2: to meet in the quickest, most efficient way possible. We
Speaker 2: have a really strong belief that Churn is our greatest ally.
Speaker 2: The quicker we can get you a success story. The
Speaker 2: quicker you will shout from the rooftops and to your
Speaker 2: single friends and family members and people at work that
Speaker 2: Bumble worked for you. And our goal is not to
Speaker 2: be in the business of keeping you in your phone
Speaker 2: all day long for the rest of your life. So
Speaker 2: we feel that we have a tremendous runway. And if
Speaker 2: you told me we helped every single human on planet
Speaker 2: Earth find their special someone, I will gladly retire happily
Speaker 2: I think we will have fulfilled a very important role
Speaker 2: online of earth.
Speaker 3: Huge on top market. Do people have misconceptions about how
Speaker 3: to trick the algorithm, you know, like if you just
Speaker 3: wipe yes on everyone, will that backfire?
Speaker 2: So I think doing the trickster things don't really work
Speaker 2: to the same degree you might think. Because the algorithms
Speaker 2: are so sophisticated, and because we have so many triggers
Speaker 2: in place to detect scammers and spammers and bad actors,
Speaker 2: you know, we actually that would be a fly to us.
Speaker 2: If someone was just gaming the system, they would be
Speaker 2: downgraded because of that behavior. So we are literally trying to,
Speaker 2: through our algorithms, through machine learning, through AI, create a safer,
Speaker 2: kinder community. So it's fascinating as we're at the intersection
Speaker 2: of AI taking over everything right now, how do we
Speaker 2: actually do what we did in twenty fourteen where we
Speaker 2: stepped in and said the Internet's been engineered to perpetuate
Speaker 2: bad behavior? Well, has AI been engineered to perpetuate bad behavior?
Speaker 4: Maybe?
Speaker 2: And so how do we take an active role to
Speaker 2: steer it, to program it, to train it to do better,
Speaker 2: to be good, to highlight goodness, and to also warn
Speaker 2: us about bad actors, So it's really about what you
Speaker 2: do with AI that will define how it affects the business.
Speaker 3: We're gonna talk a little bit more about AI in
Speaker 3: a moment, but I just want to underscore this point
Speaker 3: because this begs the sort of big question about the
Speaker 3: business of dating in general.
Speaker 4: One would think that the needs.
Speaker 3: Of your users are at odds with the needs of
Speaker 3: your shareholders who don't want who want that app engagement
Speaker 3: up into the right How do you.
Speaker 2: Reconcile that our business model is not rely on on advertising,
Speaker 2: which is reliant on eyeballs, which is reliant on time
Speaker 2: spent in and a app.
Speaker 4: Or a subscription model.
Speaker 2: Predominantly we do have some advertising, but the better relevance
Speaker 2: in terms of the matches you get, the better experience
Speaker 2: you have, the more unlock opportunity there is to converting
Speaker 2: someone to being a payer. And so I do actually
Speaker 2: think everyone is aligned. I think the subscriber drives our revenue,
Speaker 2: and so the better we can serve our members, the
Speaker 2: better we can serve our shareholders. And I think that's
Speaker 2: the beauty of this product, that we're all swimming in
Speaker 2: the same direction.
Speaker 3: So I want to talk about the experience of being
Speaker 3: on these things because like your profile photo is super
Speaker 3: important because if I was on there, I'd be obsessing
Speaker 3: about my profile photo. If there was some magical new
Speaker 3: way to make a that first digital first impression, what
Speaker 3: would you change.
Speaker 2: So it's very interesting. You know, humans behave very similarly
Speaker 2: in real life. If you were to say, no more phones,
Speaker 2: no more technology, let's all go back to meeting the
Speaker 2: old fashioned way at the bar, at the restaurant. You
Speaker 2: walk into the bar or the restaurant, and that's all
Speaker 2: you've got. You have you And what's actually quite powerful
Speaker 2: about the profile is that we've learned so much more
Speaker 2: about the person in a split second then you would
Speaker 2: ever have the opportunity to in real life. M you
Speaker 2: now in the scroll of a finger, understand their political affiliation, do.
Speaker 4: They want children, do they smoke? Where are they from?
Speaker 2: What do they like to do? A photo says a
Speaker 2: thousand words. So it actually people consider it to be
Speaker 2: slightly superficial, but in fact, meeting in real life can
Speaker 2: be quite superficial, and so it's actually quite dynamic how
Speaker 2: you can see someone come to life through photos.
Speaker 3: Here's the other thing is are people presenting themselves authentically
Speaker 3: like should we believe the guy who says he's five
Speaker 3: eleven or the girl who says she always is up
Speaker 3: for adventure.
Speaker 2: I think that's been one of the big questions over
Speaker 2: the last decade of dating apps. How do we get
Speaker 2: people to really be who they are? If they say
Speaker 2: they are something, let's ensure they really are. And so
Speaker 2: this is where we were first to introduce photo verification.
Speaker 2: This is where we have been a leader on the
Speaker 2: accountability space and so really finding other mechanisms to hold
Speaker 2: people accountable. We have features in the app where you
Speaker 2: can actually leave feedback or make a report on someone
Speaker 2: if they were misleading about who they said they were.
Speaker 4: Building a real deep connection takes time.
Speaker 3: The apps give you this big dopamine hit of attention,
Speaker 3: and you know, conceivably you could just never settle down
Speaker 3: because there's something always better, justice wipe away.
Speaker 4: How do you think this is fundamentally changing dating.
Speaker 2: I think we could play the flip side of that
Speaker 2: as well. I think without choice, there's pressure to settle.
Speaker 2: And historically a big driver of why I started Bumble
Speaker 2: was when I looked around me, A lot of women
Speaker 2: I knew settled for toxicity, they settled for abuse, They
Speaker 2: settled for disempowering relationships because where else were they going
Speaker 2: to go? And so I think something that is quite
Speaker 2: beautiful about having options is that you don't have to
Speaker 2: settle if you don't want to. Now, I understand there's
Speaker 2: flip sides to everything, but we choose to take the
Speaker 2: bright side.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: The other problem I hear from users is like dating
Speaker 3: apps are expensive, and like everything is expensive, right now,
Speaker 3: do you really have to pay to find love?
Speaker 2: When you go on that date with one person for
Speaker 2: multiple hours, that just cost you more than a couple
Speaker 2: hundred dollars A costs you a couple hours, so that
Speaker 2: time becomes money as well. So when you actually think
Speaker 2: about the value of a dating app that you could
Speaker 2: actually meet your spouse or partner, I mean that one
Speaker 2: date is not for sure going to work, right, And
Speaker 2: so when you think about the cost of dating, it's
Speaker 2: actually quite remarkable how expensive it can be. So I
Speaker 2: think there's a real value add and also a time saver.
Speaker 2: You know, Historically, putting on your heels and getting dressed
Speaker 2: up and going out to meet people it's kind of exhausting.
Speaker 2: So I think there's a real trade off there, and
Speaker 2: AI is going to be a huge tailwind to this,
Speaker 2: a huge a huge catalyst to helping people really both
Speaker 2: shine but also attract in terms of compatibility and better matching.
Speaker 2: And so I think that AI is actually going to
Speaker 2: be a supercharger for dating in general and connecting in general,
Speaker 2: because it's it's really the one arena that requires people
Speaker 2: to get offline. The end goal is to meet someone
Speaker 2: and to see each other in real life, and AI
Speaker 2: has started to threaten our need for human connections. So
Speaker 2: when you marry the efficiency of AI with the need
Speaker 2: to have real, meaningful connection, it's actually really powerful and
Speaker 2: really exciting.
Speaker 3: I've heard people say I'm done with dating apps, like
Speaker 3: I can't do this anymore. What do you say to
Speaker 3: someone who's been unlucky on the apps.
Speaker 4: For a long time.
Speaker 2: I say, take a pause, use our feature that we
Speaker 2: built called snooze. You don't have to delete your profile
Speaker 2: and lose your bio that you spent a lot of
Speaker 2: time working on.
Speaker 4: Get off the app for a while.
Speaker 2: We would never want to sacrifice someone's mental health for
Speaker 2: keeping someone as a customer. We are not in the
Speaker 2: business of exploiting people's well being to keep them on
Speaker 2: our product. Dating is also cyclical relationships end, breakups happen,
Speaker 2: divorces happen, people cycle in and out of relationships. I
Speaker 2: love these stories when I hear them, but very rarely
Speaker 2: do you hear of someone who spent their entire life
Speaker 2: with the same person. So when you actually take a
Speaker 2: longer term horizon, you know the re engaged customer is
Speaker 2: a really important business.
Speaker 3: Do you see any I mean a boomerang effect at
Speaker 3: all where people want to meet in person again instead
Speaker 3: of online.
Speaker 2: We see bumble as step one, meet match, have a
Speaker 2: quick chat, and go offline.
Speaker 4: Go in the real world.
Speaker 2: We want to make the world less lonely, and the
Speaker 2: only way that works is if you use us as
Speaker 2: a tool to meet great people and navigate your in
Speaker 2: real life opportunities.
Speaker 3: Chatbots are chatbots already in dating apps?
Speaker 4: Is that happening?
Speaker 2: So chatbots are you know, all the hype right now
Speaker 2: on the internet. Here's where I think a chatbot becomes powerful.
Speaker 2: The average US single adult single doesn't date because they
Speaker 2: don't know how to flirt or they're scared they don't
Speaker 2: know how. This is where the power of AI and
Speaker 2: leveraging it for good becomes a huge opportunity.
Speaker 4: Everyone's scared of the chatbot.
Speaker 2: What if you could leverage the chat bot to instill confidence,
Speaker 2: to help someone feel really secure before they go and
Speaker 2: talk to a bunch of people that they don't know yet.
Speaker 2: When you take a challenging problem like oh, no, is
Speaker 2: the world all going.
Speaker 4: To fall in love with chatbots?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: But how do we make the most of a chatbot?
Speaker 2: If that's where things are going and you can use
Speaker 2: it in a really powerful way?
Speaker 3: Is there anything about an AI powered dating future that
Speaker 3: makes you worry that seems a little black mirror if.
Speaker 4: You allow it to be bad? Could it be bad? Sure?
Speaker 2: But a lot of things can be bad right Driving
Speaker 2: on the freeway can be bad if you take your
Speaker 2: hands off the wheel and close your eyes. I mean,
Speaker 2: you have to just engineer things to operate within certain
Speaker 2: guardrails and boundaries, and you have to sear things in
Speaker 2: the right direction. Is the world suggesting that the whole
Speaker 2: world replaces human connection with the chatbot? If that is
Speaker 2: truly the case, I promise you we have bigger issues than bumble.
Speaker 2: I don't think you will ever replace the need for
Speaker 2: real love and human connection.
Speaker 3: I know this is something you think about a lot,
Speaker 3: which is how do we make the Internet safer for women,
Speaker 3: safer and less toxic for women?
Speaker 2: How I've been thinking about this now for well over
Speaker 2: ten years since I left Tinder, and actually before leaving Tinder,
Speaker 2: I started thinking about it. I started seeing it there,
Speaker 2: I saw it in my experience there. So this has
Speaker 2: been my driving question of how do we actually make
Speaker 2: the Internet safer for women? And the answer is it's loaded,
Speaker 2: it's nuanced, and I don't have the perfect answer. I
Speaker 2: think it's a lot of steps, and it's a lot
Speaker 2: of commitment to hopefully inch our way towards a kinder,
Speaker 2: safer platform. But what we've done to date to try
Speaker 2: to instill better behavior and to encourage better behavior is
Speaker 2: we've led with a few guiding principles safety by design, guardrails, accountability,
Speaker 2: not allowing bad stuff. Sometimes I feel completely alone in
Speaker 2: this wild, wild tech world, because you know, I'm watching
Speaker 2: the debate around free speech run wild, and I'm watching people,
Speaker 2: you know, prop up hate online and champion it. We
Speaker 2: just take a really different framework, and I think our
Speaker 2: framework is so simple. No shirt, no shoes, no service
Speaker 2: is a real normal thing at every physical location in town.
Speaker 2: Why don't we say no hate, no abuse, no service.
Speaker 2: And that's what we've done. We have really strict terms
Speaker 2: and conditions. Cannot come on here, and hate cannot come
Speaker 2: on here in abuse, and you cannot come on here
Speaker 2: in harass. We've passed a law if you send an
Speaker 2: unsolicited loot image, of course will block you. Of course
Speaker 2: we'll tell the person not to open it. But guess
Speaker 2: what we meant and made it illegal. Texas, California, other
Speaker 2: states working on it at the federal level right now.
Speaker 4: And that's just the beginning.
Speaker 3: You've been super active on the policy front.
Speaker 4: What are you fighting for a safer internet for women?
Speaker 2: There are no real guard rails that exist in legislature
Speaker 2: to keep women and girls safe on the internet.
Speaker 4: It's very behind.
Speaker 2: You know. We have a lot of these rules that
Speaker 2: exist offline. You can't. The equivalent of our unsolicited loud
Speaker 2: image bill law now is indecent exposure. You can not
Speaker 2: expose yourself in the streets. If you do, you're going
Speaker 2: to jail. Yet you can expose yourself on the digital
Speaker 2: streets at scale and nothing happens to you or before
Speaker 2: our law didn't. Before our features to protect you, it didn't.
Speaker 2: That's just step one For every example like that, there's
Speaker 2: ten others that need to be fought against. I want
Speaker 2: to look back and say we had an impact. We
Speaker 2: didn't just help connect millions and hopefully down the road
Speaker 2: billions of people and help them find their special someone.
Speaker 2: We actually cleaned up the broken system along the way.
Speaker 3: There are millions of success stories, but also a few
Speaker 3: horror stories. I'm thinking worse Tin Tinder Swindler, for example.
Speaker 3: Bad things happen everywhere, but that has to keep you
Speaker 3: up at night.
Speaker 2: It does, It does, But I think we have to
Speaker 2: accept reality at the same time. And reality is you
Speaker 2: cannot control humans. You cannot control what people do. You
Speaker 2: can put the guardrails in place.
Speaker 3: You can control what what technology they have access.
Speaker 2: To correct, but is that really going to prohibit bad
Speaker 2: behavior in the end. Because you can also set a
Speaker 2: speed limit on the freeway, require seat belts, put every
Speaker 2: stop sign up along the way, put police officers on
Speaker 2: the road. People will still speed and they will still
Speaker 2: cause fatal accidents. We can try to reduce them, but
Speaker 2: you cannot completely eradicate anything bad from happening. But what
Speaker 2: you can do is you can control how you react,
Speaker 2: and how you respond and how you improve, And this
Speaker 2: is the guiding principle. When bad things happen, we take
Speaker 2: a really hard look at it, a really self aware,
Speaker 2: really honest look, and we say, what did we do
Speaker 2: to contribute to this? What did we miss? What did
Speaker 2: we not have in place that could have either maybe
Speaker 2: not prevented it because it was so out of our
Speaker 2: control and we might have been just the starting point.
Speaker 2: But what could we have done to detect that this
Speaker 2: would have happened? What could we have done to better
Speaker 2: predict that this was going to happen? How can we
Speaker 2: help hold the broader community accountable to prevent this in
Speaker 2: the future. And these are the questions we have. How
Speaker 2: do we engage with victims? What support do we put
Speaker 2: in place? We offer all sorts of trauma support for
Speaker 2: bad things that happen, and we have a safety center,
Speaker 2: among many other efforts. But we'll never be done with this.
Speaker 2: This is just the beginning of how we can help
Speaker 2: respond better in bad situations.
Speaker 3: Do we need some sort of shared database of red flags?
Speaker 2: We do, but candidly, it's very complex because sometimes the
Speaker 2: people that are reported are reported wrongly. Sometimes it leads
Speaker 2: to other injustices out in the world. That it's is
Speaker 2: spiral effect, and so this is top of the list
Speaker 2: in terms of priorities.
Speaker 4: How do you think the pandemic changed dating? You know?
Speaker 3: Or did the pandemic maybe change dating fundamentally. I just
Speaker 3: wonder if it gave people a moment of clarity where
Speaker 3: they thought, you know what, I don't want to be lonely.
Speaker 3: Maybe I do think about have to think harder about
Speaker 3: finding a partner.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think the pandemic really highlighted that having a
Speaker 2: lot of transactional relationships is not true joy and it's
Speaker 2: not fulfilling, and that having real, meaningful relationships is exactly
Speaker 2: how we survive.
Speaker 3: How do you determine who's a bad actor?
Speaker 2: So we have incredible machine learning algorithms that really are
Speaker 2: predictive of bad behavior even before another member might be
Speaker 2: exposed to someone. So every single day, people that come
Speaker 2: into our ecosystem different triggers, different things that they do.
Speaker 2: Our technology actually detects those behavioral triggers and those behavioral
Speaker 2: rhythms if you will, and says no, this is not.
Speaker 4: Allowed on our product.
Speaker 2: Our WASP technology actually detects, deters, and blocks a lot
Speaker 2: of people from ever even engaging on our products. Beyond that,
Speaker 2: we really listen to our customers. When someone sends feedback,
Speaker 2: we take it very seriously and it goes through a
Speaker 2: different set of terms and conditions. Was this directly in
Speaker 2: violation of our industry leading terms and conditions lists?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 2: Was this abusive? Did this have hate speech? Was this
Speaker 2: at risk? It's the or violence. So it goes through
Speaker 2: this entire system of where does this fall. Now, if
Speaker 2: someone violated any of that, they are gone.
Speaker 4: They do not get to be on our product.
Speaker 2: But it's also more nuanced than that, because someone might
Speaker 2: just behave in a way that makes someone feel a
Speaker 2: bit uncomfortable. Someone might behave in a way that felt rude,
Speaker 2: but not necessarily in violation to anything. And this is
Speaker 2: where we see a ton of opportunity to really lean
Speaker 2: into karma systems of sorts and really engineer a kinder
Speaker 2: community more broadly and allowing our customers to actually have
Speaker 2: our other customers backs, to highlight good people, and to
Speaker 2: downgrade from a visibility standpoint those folks that just aren't behaving.
Speaker 3: Right, It sounds like trust is really important to you.
Speaker 3: That's something that you and Bumble value. Do you have
Speaker 3: any advice for someone like Mark Zuckerberg, who might be
Speaker 3: needing to think a little harder about how to.
Speaker 4: Bring that into the platform.
Speaker 2: I don't have any direct advice for any of the
Speaker 2: folks out there running the the products that maybe don't
Speaker 2: make this their number one. I'll put the advice out
Speaker 2: there for future founders. I think future founders have a
Speaker 2: lot of opportunities here to think about how this fits
Speaker 2: into their business strategy and to actually design their business
Speaker 2: around this. You do not have to choose profit over ethics,
Speaker 2: and I think this was a big focus of ours
Speaker 2: from day one, that we wouldn't sacrifice our mission for
Speaker 2: eyeballs or for money, but I would say, you know,
Speaker 2: be really intentional, because once you scale a product, I
Speaker 2: imagine it's very hard to all of a sudden think
Speaker 2: about trust and safety after the fact. And so when
Speaker 2: people ask me about our competition, I wish them the best,
Speaker 2: and I'm glad that they care about women now. I'm
Speaker 2: glad that safety is something they're thinking about after all
Speaker 2: these years, But it should have been foundational.
Speaker 4: Do you see that.
Speaker 3: Dating apps has fundamentally changed dating or do you believe
Speaker 3: it's fundamentally change dating even though the goal your goal
Speaker 3: is still love. You know what about the folks who
Speaker 3: feel like this is just it's so transactional.
Speaker 4: Everybody out there can just go swipe, you know, on to.
Speaker 3: The next one, and I, you know, I don't feel seen.
Speaker 2: Well, it pains me to know that people feel that
Speaker 2: way and it's not something we dismiss candidly. That's a
Speaker 2: problem statement that stays in my head. So I don't
Speaker 2: want to ignore these things. I think you're better off
Speaker 2: listening and paying attention and hearing people and saying, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm sorry you feel that way, let me go find
Speaker 2: a solution for you. So do I really think that
Speaker 2: dating apps have made dating miserable?
Speaker 3: No?
Speaker 2: I think dating for people throughout a very long time,
Speaker 2: in its essence, has been something that has been.
Speaker 4: A struggle for folks.
Speaker 2: So I actually think technology and the way that we're
Speaker 2: operating out of this backward strategy of kind connections can
Speaker 2: actually help solve a lot of this over time.
Speaker 3: What are the roo the things you're most excited about
Speaker 3: in the future where you're really where you're really passionate.
Speaker 2: So I'm deeply passionate about a few things. And when
Speaker 2: I say a few, it's a lot of things. So
Speaker 2: I will try to narrow it down here for the
Speaker 2: sake of today. I'm still deeply excited about our mission,
Speaker 2: closing my eyes and thinking about a world where women
Speaker 2: don't have to go through the relationships I've gone through
Speaker 2: and mine. We're mild compared to what women go through
Speaker 2: every day. But thinking about a world where communities are
Speaker 2: healthier because relationships are better and they're more equal, and
Speaker 2: what that can do to society over decades to come
Speaker 2: is really profound. But also just this broader relationship economy
Speaker 2: and this broader business of love. And I don't just
Speaker 2: mean romantic love. I mean love self, love, loving our friends,
Speaker 2: loving the doctor you choose, loving the people in your life,
Speaker 2: and feeling fulfilled with those relationships. I think we're just
Speaker 2: inching our way into the very first inning of that opportunity.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of The Circuit.
Speaker 1: I'm Emily Chang. You can follow me on Twitter and
Speaker 1: Instagram at Emily Chang TV. You can watch new episodes
Speaker 1: of the Circuit on Bloomberg Television or on demand by
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Speaker 1: what you think by leaving us a review. I'm your
Speaker 1: host and executive producer. Our senior producer is Lauren Ellis.
Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Lizzie Phillip. Our editor is Sebastian Escobar.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening.