Speaker 1: The following episode was recorded before the WGA sag Aftra
Speaker 1: strikes of twenty twenty three.
Speaker 2: When I first heard about the revolution in Iran, it
Speaker 2: just made me think so much about how truly grateful
Speaker 2: I am for the freedoms of my daughter and my wife. Gosh,
Speaker 2: there's so much that we take for granted here in
Speaker 2: this country. Yes, we have a long way to go
Speaker 2: in terms of equality, gender equality, and things like the
Speaker 2: Equal Rights Amendment that still hasn't been able to pass.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, there's parts of the world
Speaker 2: where being a woman limits your opportunities. To have a
Speaker 2: society that is based on that and on those traditions
Speaker 2: of silencing the voices of these incredible women is really
Speaker 2: a tragedy, and I think that it's very inspiring to
Speaker 2: me to see these women that have risen up and
Speaker 2: Iran and Afghanistan and other countries. I have a tremendous
Speaker 2: privilege as a man, and the safety that I feel
Speaker 2: traveling most places in the world is something that is
Speaker 2: very very easy to take for granted. So today we
Speaker 2: have nazanin Boniati and her guest Roya, both from Iran.
Speaker 2: They've got some very very powerful stories to share. This
Speaker 2: is a very very timely issue, so please lean in.
Speaker 2: I'm glad you're here. Okay, here we are with Nozanin Boniatti. Now,
Speaker 2: first off, did I get it even close to being right?
Speaker 3: I'm so impressed you nailed it.
Speaker 2: Listen, that is a star's name. I mean a change
Speaker 2: your name. Did you change your name?
Speaker 3: No? In fact, a lot of people told me to
Speaker 3: change my name, and I thought, you know, I started
Speaker 3: act and sort of about post nine to eleven climates,
Speaker 3: so it was you know, nobody's going to that's not
Speaker 3: going to resonate with anyone. You'll you'll be stuck, stuck
Speaker 3: playing sort of human shields for the rest of your
Speaker 3: life exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. What were some of the worst names that
Speaker 2: they suggested?
Speaker 3: A lot of people wanted me to be named Nina,
Speaker 3: Like my first name to be changed from Nazanine to Nina.
Speaker 3: Well that's still kind of Iranian, but you can, you know,
Speaker 3: it's westernized, and I think very few people had a
Speaker 3: huge name with a problem with my last name. It
Speaker 3: was mainly just sort of the first name. But you know,
Speaker 3: you have so many great Iranian actors with incredibly sort
Speaker 3: of complex and gorgeous names like shre Alta shlu and
Speaker 3: and why not. I mean, that's why not.
Speaker 2: I mean, come on, it's people have actually asked me
Speaker 2: if I changed my name to Bacon because I thought,
Speaker 2: you know, that that would be as somehow would I
Speaker 2: don't know, And I'm like, what kind of a fool
Speaker 2: would want to be? You know, have a lifetime of
Speaker 2: jokes about your last name being a breakfast food and
Speaker 2: I was, I couldn't believe it when when people, I mean,
Speaker 2: I can't. I don't think I ever really thought about
Speaker 2: switching it. But you know, also there's a very very
Speaker 2: large population of the of the world that the name
Speaker 2: Bacon does not bring up good feelings.
Speaker 3: Oh well, yeah, I never thought of that. But you
Speaker 3: know what, I really I dig your name and thank
Speaker 3: you she didn't Thank goodness you didn't change it.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for saying that. You know,
Speaker 2: a lot of times when people come on the actor
Speaker 2: pretty much everybody that's been on this on this podcast,
Speaker 2: we try to, I try to think about or actually
Speaker 2: do research into whether or not there are actually any
Speaker 2: connections because of this, you know, six degrees thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and I don't think that we've ever worked together in
Speaker 2: the same project as far as I can tell. Now,
Speaker 2: I'm absolutely certain that you've worked with someone that I've
Speaker 2: worked with, although I'm not exactly sure who that who
Speaker 2: that necessarily is. But one connection that we do have
Speaker 2: is a history of soap operas.
Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't know that. Which one were you on?
Speaker 2: Well? I started in the seventies in New York and
Speaker 2: one of the first soap opera that I did was
Speaker 2: called Search for Tomorrow. Oh not, it doesn't even exist anymore.
Speaker 2: And I was a boy who just in for the summer,
Speaker 2: and the reason that I was there was there was
Speaker 2: a very very popular young lady who was in the
Speaker 2: course of that summer going to turn sixteen and have
Speaker 2: her first kiss, and I was going to be the kiss,
Speaker 2: but it was kind of the build up to that.
Speaker 2: And then I went on to The Guiding Light, which
Speaker 2: I was on for a year as Tim the Teenage Alcoholics.
Speaker 2: So how did you find in your way to to soaps?
Speaker 3: I mean, it was right the beginning of my career,
Speaker 3: and I feel like goodness now I'm thinking back. It
Speaker 3: was a very long time ago, and I I appreciated
Speaker 3: the fact that it was like boot camp because you're
Speaker 3: learning what an episode of dialogue a day, and it's
Speaker 3: just it's a lot and you're making I made all
Speaker 3: my mistakes on screen. I mean I cringed sometimes when
Speaker 3: I look back at those episodes, and I'm like, what
Speaker 3: was I thinking? I mean, I was headed to medical school.
Speaker 3: I was going to be a doctor, like every good
Speaker 3: Iranian girl is supposed to be.
Speaker 2: Wow, what kind of medicine were you going to do?
Speaker 3: I was thinking pediatric oncology, which would have been hugely depressing.
Speaker 3: But I'm wow, yeah, yeah, And I graduated with honors
Speaker 3: in pre med and then I became a nurse on
Speaker 3: general hospital. So my dad was like, that makes no
Speaker 3: sense to me.
Speaker 2: You got the motive, You got the motor was it
Speaker 2: became an actor. Doesn't that happen to us a lot?
Speaker 2: I think got a lot of that. Yeah, you know, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know you you you work so hard as a
Speaker 2: waiter and then you know your first job is as
Speaker 2: a busboy in a movie. You know, But that's but
Speaker 2: that's that's fascinating. So but take me back to you
Speaker 2: were born in Iran, correct, Yes, and and you left
Speaker 2: right around the time of the revolutionary right after the.
Speaker 3: Rainy Revolutionary Yeah, right after the Islamic Revolution, which was
Speaker 3: seventy nine, and so I was What actually happened was
Speaker 3: my parents tried to leave when my mother was eight
Speaker 3: months pregnant, and then you know, a scene straight out
Speaker 3: of Argo. Basically, my father's name was announced on the
Speaker 3: PA system at the airport as they were trying to leave,
Speaker 3: and mister Bonneli was summoned to the revolutionary court. And
Speaker 3: what that meant was they were both dissidentced they didn't
Speaker 3: they were opposed to the newly forming Islamic Republic, and
Speaker 3: they they realized that raising a child in that environment
Speaker 3: where political, social, legal rights were just quickly being stripped
Speaker 3: away from people wouldn't be a good thing. And my
Speaker 3: dad would probably be executed because he was against the regime.
Speaker 2: And so was he was he a doctor? Was he
Speaker 2: in medicine as well?
Speaker 3: He was a journalist. Journalist, you know, they don't like
Speaker 3: gen they don't like anybody who sort of uses free expression.
Speaker 3: He worked for the King's newspaper, So anybody who worked
Speaker 3: under the former guard that was sort of like target
Speaker 3: public enemy number one, and so we were summoned. I
Speaker 3: happened to be born while he was waiting for his
Speaker 3: court date, which you would have most likely been just
Speaker 3: summarily executed, and we managed to escape on fake passports,
Speaker 3: you know, twenty days or something after.
Speaker 2: Where did you fly? Where did you fly? London?
Speaker 3: That's that's where I was raised. We got political asylum
Speaker 3: in London. My uncle was there at the time, so
Speaker 3: it made sense. My parents obviously knew a tiny bit
Speaker 3: of English because it was like the second language, second
Speaker 3: or third language at the time being taught, and Iran
Speaker 3: and it just made most sense. And so I grew
Speaker 3: up in London and council flats and bed and breakfasts,
Speaker 3: and I managed to sort of get a scholarship to
Speaker 3: a private school because I studied really hard. The typical
Speaker 3: immigrant story of parents wanting their kids to sort of
Speaker 3: be successful and you know, yeah, wow.
Speaker 2: What a story. Now, So the passports had to be
Speaker 2: gathered off of like the black market or something like
Speaker 2: that or no.
Speaker 3: Actually, oddly enough, the guy who took over the newspaper
Speaker 3: that my father was working for, in which he was
Speaker 3: sort of head chief accountant and occasionally wrote as well.
Speaker 3: He he was he worked for the new government, the
Speaker 3: new regime, but he took a liking to my dad
Speaker 3: and he said, look, you will be executed. You need
Speaker 3: to get out, and he helped us escape and then
Speaker 3: a year later he was executed.
Speaker 2: Oh so yeah, wow, that is so story. Yeah, and
Speaker 2: I guess this has probably happened to a lot of people.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I actually just had dinner with a
Speaker 2: man the other night who had a very very similar
Speaker 2: story but ended up in England and went to school
Speaker 2: in the UK. So you're there living in London and
Speaker 2: what did your parents do then, I mean did they
Speaker 2: just kind of fundy any job they could or.
Speaker 3: Yeah, menial jobs. You know. It was a huge again,
Speaker 3: much like any other sort of refugee where you leave
Speaker 3: sort of a stable life, things that you're familiar with
Speaker 3: in know, and perhaps even great success, and you leave
Speaker 3: and you have to sort of start from scratch, except
Speaker 3: for this as a young couple. My mother was twenty
Speaker 3: at the time, my dad was thirty, and I was
Speaker 3: twenty days when we got to London, so you can imagine,
Speaker 3: and it adds a lot of pressure to a couple
Speaker 3: who don't really know the language or how to navigate
Speaker 3: life at such a young age.
Speaker 2: And then what was the evil cup that you dragged
Speaker 2: become an actor. That made you go, I think I'm
Speaker 2: not going to save you know, babies, I think I'll
Speaker 2: be an actor.
Speaker 3: Oh goodness, I feel like Okay. So I was in
Speaker 3: every single high school play. I was very sort of
Speaker 3: artistic growing up, but it was always encouraged that that
Speaker 3: would well, that's just your hobby, right, so's you can
Speaker 3: do that. You can go take ballet classes and do
Speaker 3: ice skating performances on the ice rink, and you can
Speaker 3: play the violin, and you can be in every high
Speaker 3: school play. But that's always just going to be a hobby.
Speaker 3: I think it's just ingrained in our culture that we
Speaker 3: have to be academic. It's a running joke Iranians have
Speaker 3: to be doctors. You have lots of choices, doctor, engineer, lawyer, dentist.
Speaker 3: Those are your option, and I chose sort of like
Speaker 3: I thought. I always knew I wanted to help people.
Speaker 3: I thought, well, medicine, that's just how I'm going to
Speaker 3: help people. And I sort of suppressed the artistic side.
Speaker 3: And then I got to a point where I got
Speaker 3: my I studied so hard, Kevin, I thought it just
Speaker 3: didn't come naturally to me to get a's so to
Speaker 3: get the a's and to graduate with honors, I went
Speaker 3: to UC. I went to UC Irvine, I moved for
Speaker 3: university and I thought, okay, I just had to study
Speaker 3: so hard. It didn't come naturally at all. So when
Speaker 3: I graduated with honors, I remember thinking this is great,
Speaker 3: but it just ruined, like it ruined every ounce of
Speaker 3: my soul. Again, it didn't come naturally, and the arts
Speaker 3: did and do. So it feels like I made the
Speaker 3: right choice.
Speaker 2: Oh well, clearly you made the right choice. Just as
Speaker 2: I'm just circling back, just thinking about something. As a
Speaker 2: scholarship student in a London school or in the British
Speaker 2: school system and being an Iranian refugee, did you find
Speaker 2: that people were welcoming? I mean, I'm assuming that there
Speaker 2: weren't a lot a lot of other uh you and
Speaker 2: they'll have a lot of friends who were who were Ranian.
Speaker 3: No. In fact, I think there it might have only
Speaker 3: been one more Iranian person in There was one rounding
Speaker 3: guy in my class, I think maybe in all my school.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I mean that was just a huge difference
Speaker 3: between I would go home to a council flat government
Speaker 3: which is government housing, and then go to this really
Speaker 3: push school with you know, a bunch of rich kids,
Speaker 3: and you know, I counted my blessings every day that
Speaker 3: I got to sort of get that education. But yeah,
Speaker 3: the two lives that I led sort of at home
Speaker 3: and were very different.
Speaker 2: And how is how did you Was it a kind
Speaker 2: of a culture shock to land in southern California and
Speaker 2: see that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. It's odd. It's I mean, I'm sure
Speaker 3: you spent a lot of time in the UK. We
Speaker 3: speak the same language, but it is it's hugely different.
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So yeah, people sort of take it for granted,
Speaker 3: like I just moved to London or I just moved
Speaker 3: to la But it is. It takes them adjusting, and
Speaker 3: it's it's just different.
Speaker 2: So you're in California and you're finishing up medical school
Speaker 2: and you have this giant, giant fork in the road
Speaker 2: and you take a different turn. Yeah, how is it?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 2: I'm assuming, like I'm not really sure on the I
Speaker 2: didn't I didn't go to college. I'm not sure on
Speaker 2: the math of what you'd be in your twenties maybe
Speaker 2: or Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I finished pre med, so I got a degree
Speaker 3: in biology, and I was applying to medical school and
Speaker 3: I was twenty four, I guess twenty five. And that's
Speaker 3: when I when I decided I wanted to I actually
Speaker 3: wanted to act. And I called my dad who's still
Speaker 3: in London, and I said, thanks for helping me with college,
Speaker 3: but I'm going to go act now. Needless to say,
Speaker 3: that didn't that didn't necessarily go down very well.
Speaker 2: Ah, I can't imagine. I mean, I've not picturing like
Speaker 2: an emoji with your with his head blow it off.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow, he was not happy. No, I'm sure he's been that. Yeah.
Speaker 3: He said something along the lines of, couldn't you have
Speaker 3: decided this, like maybe four or five years ago before
Speaker 3: we before we invested sort of five years for four
Speaker 3: or five years in college.
Speaker 2: How do you even begin, you know, to to have
Speaker 2: that career? I mean, I mean, I think people are
Speaker 2: always fascinated in what you know. How how do you
Speaker 2: start to be an actor?
Speaker 3: Gosh, I wish there was I'm sure you get asked
Speaker 3: this question all the time, and I wish there was
Speaker 3: sort of this like just one answer that we could
Speaker 3: give everyone and help them along the way. It is
Speaker 3: sort of hit or miss, and you try everything. And
Speaker 3: for me, just because I just graduated UNI. I thought, okay,
Speaker 3: I'm just going to go to U C LA and
Speaker 3: USC and asked to be in every single student film
Speaker 3: and put a reel together and work for free and
Speaker 3: then submit to get sort of a manager and see
Speaker 3: how that goes. I was really lucky because you know,
Speaker 3: everybody said, you're in your mid twenties as an actress.
Speaker 3: As a woman, it's harder as a minority woman. It's
Speaker 3: even harder, especially in a post nine to eleven climate.
Speaker 3: It just all felt sort of the wrong time for
Speaker 3: me to start. And also I was aware that people
Speaker 3: were doing this since they were nine and still hadn't
Speaker 3: quite whatever made it means, but in their minds hadn't
Speaker 3: made it. And then I was lucky because I managed
Speaker 3: to get a SAG card nine months after I decided
Speaker 3: acting to start acting. So I just thought that's and
Speaker 3: then I realized, okay, so maybe I am supposed to
Speaker 3: be doing this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good sign. But I got to tell you,
Speaker 2: I don't know that I know of anyone or I've
Speaker 2: never spoken to it. I started in New York, but
Speaker 2: I'd never spoken to anyone that actually went that. That's
Speaker 2: a fascinating rap to actually go to USC and U
Speaker 2: C l A and just what do you go, like
Speaker 2: up to a message board or something and just see
Speaker 2: if there's anybody be cast in a part. Yeah, that's
Speaker 2: really smart because because then you end up with with film,
Speaker 2: you know, and and and you get and you get
Speaker 2: end up with two great things. One is film and
Speaker 2: one is experience. And and by the way, I don't
Speaker 2: know if you feel this way, but I'm still waiting
Speaker 2: to make it. I mean, I mean, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't you know that idea that somebody feels like they
Speaker 2: got there is It's it's not very common, I think
Speaker 2: among actors. I think we really are constantly, you know,
Speaker 2: still searching for something else because you know, we we
Speaker 2: we we're we're freelance operators, you know, and we got
Speaker 2: to keep keep the work rolling in So you get
Speaker 2: on your soap and and that that soap was shot
Speaker 2: in l A General Hospital, right, gosh.
Speaker 3: Yeah it was, it was l A. And it just
Speaker 3: it just makes me feel so warm it to hear
Speaker 3: you say that, Evin, because it just this idea that you,
Speaker 3: with your your level of success, still have that feeling
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: Of I'm always waiting for the phone to ring. I'm
Speaker 2: always waiting for the phone to ring. I mean, I
Speaker 2: just I don't want it anymore, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I you know, and I have my moments where sometimes
Speaker 2: I go, yeah, you know, you're doing okay, But most
Speaker 2: of me, it's kind of like the opposite, Like you know,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I've talked. I've talked to other actors,
Speaker 2: you know, to friends about how we actually get through this.
Speaker 2: I think you would probably agree. And when when I
Speaker 2: when I ask about the process of how you actually
Speaker 2: got involved and got your you know, sad card and
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. I think that one of the
Speaker 2: things is that you wake up every day and you
Speaker 2: do some kind of baby step towards what it is
Speaker 2: that you're hoping for, so you don't let the big
Speaker 2: big picture, you know, kind of overwhelm. You focus on
Speaker 2: what what and I do today? You know, because the
Speaker 2: hard thing about if you're a violinist, you know, you
Speaker 2: got your violin, you can take it out and play
Speaker 2: all day, you know. If you're an actor, it's kind
Speaker 2: of hard to just walk around and act.
Speaker 3: That's so true.
Speaker 2: But that's so I mean, I find this story so
Speaker 2: inspiring from so many levels. I mean the terror that
Speaker 2: your parents went through with their their their lives on
Speaker 2: the line, being able to escape, then coming to the
Speaker 2: UK with nothing. This scholarship, this all the work that
Speaker 2: you put in towards towards the medical career, and that
Speaker 2: you even you know, specifically wanted to help babies. I mean,
Speaker 2: I everything is is just very very inspiring and I
Speaker 2: and I really do think that making it's so terrifying
Speaker 2: when you're twenty four. You don't feel like a kid.
Speaker 2: Right now, at my age, I think it's someone the
Speaker 2: twenty four I think of them sort of a dang kid.
Speaker 2: But when I was twenty four, there was no part
Speaker 2: of me that thought of myself as a as a kid.
Speaker 2: And to make a giant turn in your life at
Speaker 2: that point I had the courage to say, you know,
Speaker 2: I think I want to put them the stethoscope and
Speaker 2: pick up a script is just it's it's very it's
Speaker 2: very inspiring to me if I think kind of fascinating,
Speaker 2: Thank Ken, are you working now?
Speaker 3: You know what's odd is I the the past ten months,
Speaker 3: of course, I've been just committed and diverted to this
Speaker 3: woman life freedom revolution in Iran. But before that you know,
Speaker 3: I was working and he did you know, all of
Speaker 3: the rings and again, like you, much like you, I'm
Speaker 3: waiting for the for the phone to ring. And and
Speaker 3: but also I've been really happy with sort of turning
Speaker 3: down the work in the past ten months because this
Speaker 3: has been for my focus and I've really been happy
Speaker 3: to sort of stay focused on this. It's not sustainable.
Speaker 3: We have to make livings and we have to sort
Speaker 3: of keep doing the work, and also to nurture our
Speaker 3: artistic brains. Because I don't know about you, Kevin, but
Speaker 3: when I'm when there's a lull, I do feel like
Speaker 3: something's missing. I feel like I need to get back
Speaker 3: in the groove of things and be in an artistic community.
Speaker 3: And so, yeah, it's getting to that point.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 2: Have we turned any kind of a corner in your mind?
Speaker 2: You know, you spoke briefly about being in a post
Speaker 2: nine to eleven situation being an Iranian actress with the
Speaker 2: ARII and name the limited possibilities in terms of people's
Speaker 2: minds casting wise, Have we turned any kind of a
Speaker 2: corner and in terms of that in our industry, do
Speaker 2: you think, because I just wonder if there's been any movement.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I've I've deliberately tried to make choices
Speaker 3: I think that have veered away from being pigeonholed and
Speaker 3: that sort of like just stereotype. I was lucky because,
Speaker 3: you know, twenty eleven, I got the role of Nora
Speaker 3: on How I Met Your Mother, which was she was
Speaker 3: just a girl and and sort of the first real
Speaker 3: love to Bernie Stinson. And she happened, I happened to
Speaker 3: be Iranian, but there was no mention of you know,
Speaker 3: where she's from or background.
Speaker 2: She was just English. Did you do an English accent?
Speaker 3: I did my own accent yet, And it was fun
Speaker 3: to do a comedy and just to play a woman
Speaker 3: and not be sort of stereotyped, to pigeonholed. And then,
Speaker 3: of course, right after that Homeland where I did play
Speaker 3: a Muslim Iranian woman with a headscarf, and it was
Speaker 3: just thank you, and it was such a lesson in
Speaker 3: sort of you know, it was a step in the
Speaker 3: right direction. At the time, I knew what they were doing,
Speaker 3: which was not all Muslims are bad and not you know,
Speaker 3: let's portray this positive character. This is a sort of
Speaker 3: epitome of what it's like to be a representation of
Speaker 3: just a Muslim woman and not a not a baddie
Speaker 3: or a villain, right, and so that was a step
Speaker 3: in the right direction today, by today's standards, if we
Speaker 3: look at that, we would say, okay, maybe there was
Speaker 3: room for sort of adjustment. And then it kept growing
Speaker 3: and growing after that. Of like, you know, I think
Speaker 3: things are shifting, They're heading in the right direction, for sure,
Speaker 3: you do.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'm glad to hear it. I'm glad to hear
Speaker 2: you say that. Well, talk to me about women life freedom.
Speaker 2: It seems to be we highlight a lot of organizations.
Speaker 2: This feels a little bit more like a movement than
Speaker 2: an actual organization. Am I correct in that?
Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, it's a movement. It's the slogan, it's
Speaker 3: essentially the battle cry in the aftermath of the murdering
Speaker 3: custody Massagena. I mean, of course, the twenty two year
Speaker 3: old kadish Iranian woman who was arrested for quote unquote
Speaker 3: inappropriate hijab by the again so called morality police. It's
Speaker 3: such a dystopping reality they live in. I've had my
Speaker 3: own run in with the morality police in when I
Speaker 3: visited Iran when I was twelve, and it was a
Speaker 3: really harrowing experience of just being grilled, and it was
Speaker 3: a glimpse into sort of the daily indignities that women
Speaker 3: and girls face in Iran. And so in the aftermath
Speaker 3: of her murder, people rose up and the battle cry
Speaker 3: became woman life Freedom, which is essentially, we want women's
Speaker 3: rights and equality and we want the you know, we
Speaker 3: want a normal life, and we want freedom. And that quickly,
Speaker 3: you know, women took the streets, young girls took the streets,
Speaker 3: taking off their compulsory her jobs.
Speaker 2: And incredible to watch from here.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so inspiring and saying the slogan's slogan woman
Speaker 3: life Freedom. That led to sort of a pro democracy
Speaker 3: uprising because I think what people don't realize is that
Speaker 3: Massa wasn't just young and a woman. She was also
Speaker 3: a member of an ethnic and religious minority group. She
Speaker 3: was a Curred and she was a Sunni Muslim. And
Speaker 3: so what it did to society was anybody who's a minority,
Speaker 3: anyone who's fighting for any kind of right, basic human right,
Speaker 3: understood that until women and girls have their freedom, democracy
Speaker 3: won't prevail. So it became a pro democracy uprising and
Speaker 3: they're still going. We may not see the numbers on
Speaker 3: the streets but as much as we did in the
Speaker 3: past few months, but that that sort of revolution is
Speaker 3: in their hearts and their minds. And I talked to
Speaker 3: people in the on the ground every day and they
Speaker 3: are saying, please, don't give up on us, which is
Speaker 3: why I'm so grateful to you, Kevin for spotlighting this now.
Speaker 2: Is it all? I'm wondering about that because is it
Speaker 2: a the fact that we haven't been seeing that much
Speaker 2: of it in it? I mean, obviously people have such
Speaker 2: short memories in this age that we're living in. Is
Speaker 2: that a function of the movement being sort of squashed
Speaker 2: or is it a temporary thing? I mean, what can
Speaker 2: we learn about that?
Speaker 3: That's a great question. I you know, these uprisings really started.
Speaker 3: What people don't realize, the anti compulsory HDJAB uprising started
Speaker 3: in December twenty seventeen. They've been ebbs and flows. The
Speaker 3: only real big break and the uprising has been the pandemic,
Speaker 3: which which is very talented, tells you everything about the
Speaker 3: Iranian people. They don't want to put other Iranians at risk,
Speaker 3: so they won't take to the streets if they feel
Speaker 3: like they might be contagious and they'll get somebody else
Speaker 3: sick and that might lead to their death. But they
Speaker 3: are very willing to take to the streets and risk
Speaker 3: their own lives, you know, at the hands of the
Speaker 3: regime so called security forces, and take a bullet. I mean,
Speaker 3: they're being shot in the eyes and blinded. They're being
Speaker 3: young girls, are being school girls are being gassed, and
Speaker 3: yet they keep protesting. Of course, it's not sustainable because
Speaker 3: the reason we're not seeing the numbers on the streets
Speaker 3: is because after being killed and tortured and raped and
Speaker 3: all these things, there's only so much people can take.
Speaker 3: So you see sort of them, you know, taking a
Speaker 3: step back, regrouping. But the ebbs and the time between
Speaker 3: the ebbs and the flows are getting shorter and shorter.
Speaker 3: I don't doubt that that we're going to see another
Speaker 3: mass uprising soon. The question is, can we the international
Speaker 3: community step up this time, make sure Iranians have internet access,
Speaker 3: really condemn and hold the Iranian regime to account, and
Speaker 3: stand with the Iranian people. As long as we keep
Speaker 3: negotiating with their leadership, as long as we normalize them,
Speaker 3: we we're not really standing with the people. We need
Speaker 3: to all we need to do is stand with the
Speaker 3: people so that they decide what they want for their
Speaker 3: own future.
Speaker 2: That's an excellent, excellent point I want to bring into
Speaker 2: this conversation, Roya pr I. First off, thank you welcome
Speaker 2: and thanks for joining us. Do the two of you
Speaker 2: know each other?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, we do?
Speaker 2: Oh okay, okay, And how are you, Roya?
Speaker 4: I'm fine. I'm somehow struggling with a lot of ups
Speaker 4: and downyl's but at this roll rules I'm better. I'm
Speaker 4: getting better. But you know, I always say that until
Speaker 4: we overthrow this regime, the Islamic Republic of your own,
Speaker 4: and until we steak justice will be able to gain
Speaker 4: justice in your own I think I'm not going to
Speaker 4: be fine till that time, but I'm better now.
Speaker 2: First off, let me just say from the bottom of
Speaker 2: my heart, this is a very difficult thing for you
Speaker 2: to discuss, and I am truly truly sorry for your
Speaker 2: loss and up and thank you for having the courage to,
Speaker 2: you know, to take that terrible situation and use your
Speaker 2: voice to try to try to facilitate some kind of
Speaker 2: change in people's thinking. But can you just tell us
Speaker 2: the story first?
Speaker 4: Of all, thanks for having me her, It's a lot alert.
Speaker 4: I was born in your own I was born in
Speaker 4: the city of Kerlouansha. It's a Kurdish city. I'm a
Speaker 4: Kurdish girl. I was born in the Kurdish family. My
Speaker 4: family were pretty decent, like, I had a healthy family,
Speaker 4: not traumas. Even the fact that I was growing up
Speaker 4: in a society under the control of an outdated regime
Speaker 4: with with outdated ideologies they have the design of republic.
Speaker 4: I think I had a good life. We were good together,
Speaker 4: me and my family. I have two siblings. I have
Speaker 4: a brother sister, both older than me, and I was
Speaker 4: the last child. Took kind of spoiled. So and my family,
Speaker 4: they were not religious at all. And on my father's side,
Speaker 4: actually we uh we were Jarasan, which is uh religion
Speaker 4: in the Kurdish province. It is uh. A lot of
Speaker 4: people there are a part of that community and uh
Speaker 4: uh their religion is Arson. But me myself, we I
Speaker 4: don't believe in anything like an agnostic and yeah, so
Speaker 4: religion was not a big deal in our family. So
Speaker 4: somehow in my house, in my family, I had freedom.
Speaker 4: But you know, when you go out, when you municate.
Speaker 4: It's it's like you become a hypocrite. You have to
Speaker 4: show something, especially in UH school, in UH universities, and
Speaker 4: when you go to administrations to do something, you have
Speaker 4: to become something else.
Speaker 2: Something to life. It's like you have exactly you have.
Speaker 4: To always put on WS. This was, you know, the
Speaker 4: explanation that I thought that I need to make, yeah,
Speaker 4: before I get into the story.
Speaker 2: So it was, It's great, It's very helpful, it's fascinating.
Speaker 4: Thank you. So it was on September twenty, twenty twenty two.
Speaker 4: That morning, I was with my mom at home and
Speaker 4: we used to go to the gym with each other.
Speaker 4: So she was a bit away from exercising and she said,
Speaker 4: I'd better start exercising and yon and coming to the
Speaker 4: jedil with you. But I don't. That day, I was,
Speaker 4: I felt a bit sick, and I just told her
Speaker 4: that I'm not really in the mood. I don't feel well. Uh,
Speaker 4: And we didn't go. After that. At lunch story, I
Speaker 4: got out of home and that was the last time
Speaker 4: with selwein Wo. I went to join my friends for
Speaker 4: the launch and after that I had to go to
Speaker 4: my brother's house to peep the cats because they were
Speaker 4: a traveling they were in Tehu. So yeah, I didn't
Speaker 4: know that she was going to join the protest. She
Speaker 4: didn't tell me anything about it. She just saw me
Speaker 4: maybe uh she would go, uh do some pain poll.
Speaker 2: Because why do you think she didn't tell you about it?
Speaker 2: I'm curious. I don't think.
Speaker 4: I don't think there is no I don't think she
Speaker 4: wanted to keep its secret like she was worried, uh
Speaker 4: like if I joined her. No, I think it was
Speaker 4: like a sudden decision that it was just like her.
Speaker 2: It was kind of like on her route. Maybe she
Speaker 2: just got a sense that it was happening and decided
Speaker 2: to join in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it was not unexpected because my mom she
Speaker 4: used to participate in the previous uprisings, like uprising in
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, twenty twenty which people are you know, they
Speaker 4: call it the Bloody November or Bloody Alburn, And she
Speaker 4: participated in that in a green movement. And yeah, all
Speaker 4: of my family they were always opposed to the Islamic Republic.
Speaker 4: So she felt that responsibility and she always cared about people.
Speaker 4: She was I'm not saying this because just my mom.
Speaker 4: Everybody loved their room. But yeah, she is truly curring parted.
Speaker 4: I think she did what she had to and asked
Speaker 4: her and uh sorry. And when she got out, my
Speaker 4: father was with her. It was seven point thirty, Yeah,
Speaker 4: waiting around that time. She said to my father that
Speaker 4: she wants to Corney Street drying protests. And my father
Speaker 4: was really worried as we already seen that they kill people,
Speaker 4: like in the Bloody November it said that they have
Speaker 4: killed one thousand, six hundred people. So he was worried
Speaker 4: about her, and he said that don't go, and she
Speaker 4: told her, told him that if I don't go and
Speaker 4: you don't go, then who will go. Then the youth
Speaker 4: will go out and they will be killed. So that's
Speaker 4: how she felt about this, right, she felt sympathy and
Speaker 4: empathy for Massa, for Genier, a twenty two year old
Speaker 4: girl and was killed just for improper a job she
Speaker 4: had a job on. It was just not proper to them,
Speaker 4: to the morality police, and it's just really absurd. It's ridiculous.
Speaker 4: And her death was like a spark like the society.
Speaker 4: They had the potential, they had the anger towards the
Speaker 4: regime because they were struggling with a lot of things
Speaker 4: in your lives, the lives that the Islamic Republic made
Speaker 4: for them. They were struggling with poverty, with discrimination, gender partheid,
Speaker 4: corruption in everything like administrations, the ecologomy, with that they
Speaker 4: don't have a basic human rights. So they were fed
Speaker 4: up with it. Yeah, as I said, my mother, she
Speaker 4: was always host to this regime.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's a terrible, terrible piece of news to
Speaker 2: get and devastating I'm sure for your father and for
Speaker 2: your siblings. But it seems as though you have decided
Speaker 2: to uh kind of take it and start using your
Speaker 2: voice in terms of this. And I'm and you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, I would think that a lot of people
Speaker 2: would kind of go the other direction, you know, would
Speaker 2: sort of say, well, this is just too painful and
Speaker 2: not to mention too danger terius and to life threatening
Speaker 2: to be able to you know, kind of speak about this.
Speaker 2: What what what is it that that made you specifically
Speaker 2: want to get involved and continue to you know, uh,
Speaker 2: carry on your mother's legacy of wanting to want to change.
Speaker 4: In the beginning, Uh, the way that I protested against
Speaker 4: what happened, uh, what they did to my mother and
Speaker 4: to my family, it wasn't in words. I didn't speak.
Speaker 4: I showed it with a picture. That was my way
Speaker 4: because somehow I'm an intulbird person and I can't really
Speaker 4: put my feelings into words. I managed to uh take
Speaker 4: that picture and look into the camera with my hate
Speaker 4: head shape and with my hair and my hairs. That
Speaker 4: that was it. That was all that I felt. And
Speaker 4: people received waring message. People understood that feeling, that anger
Speaker 4: that I had in that grief, and I wanted that
Speaker 4: that picture to uh go viral and uh to be
Speaker 4: seen and and somehow it's with its then viral like
Speaker 4: not not the way that I expected, because it was
Speaker 4: just not Iranians like people outside Iran and seeing that
Speaker 4: picture and felt what I felt. So now so yeah,
Speaker 4: at the beginning it wasn't with h speaking up. But
Speaker 4: after I got out of Iran, so I first I
Speaker 4: went to Turkey and I stayed there and then I
Speaker 4: went to friends. That was the time that I had
Speaker 4: I was able to speak up. When we met President
Speaker 4: Nakan with a group uh like with UH journalists and
Speaker 4: activements political activists, mass miss uh load and woman and
Speaker 4: Shimubibi which uh these two they were also breathed like uh,
Speaker 4: she was that UH was abducted by Isladic Republic and
Speaker 4: the father of Ladin women UH was killed, was.
Speaker 3: UH terrorized a terrors uh?
Speaker 4: And yeah, that was the time that uh I found
Speaker 4: a platform to speak. And at that time I literally
Speaker 4: uh think like properly, like I was like in a
Speaker 4: Hilight modes and I felt like, Okay, this is the
Speaker 4: right thing to do. This is an opportunity and I
Speaker 4: have to use it to speak on behalf of the
Speaker 4: lost voices like gray wolves.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: So I continued accepting some interviews. Yeah, and then I
Speaker 4: applied for visa for UK. My sister she's living in UK.
Speaker 4: So I had no one in h friends, no channeling members.
Speaker 4: So I was granted visa and I went to UK.
Speaker 2: And now you have you don't have it. You don't
Speaker 2: have a British accent yet?
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, yes, because in Iran the English classes are
Speaker 4: mainly uh in American accent. They don't.
Speaker 2: The correct kind of English.
Speaker 4: Yeah. So uh. Yeah it continued my uh like my activities,
Speaker 4: but I'm not that active because it needs a lot
Speaker 4: of energy. I'm not an activist yet. This is not
Speaker 4: the path that I have chosen. I could never think
Speaker 4: of this like uh, you know, uh, this happening to me,
Speaker 4: and you know, going into this path, I don't see
Speaker 4: myself like this kind of person who would be active
Speaker 4: and becoming activists and what would.
Speaker 2: You like, what would you like to be doing in situations?
Speaker 4: So I was always interested in arts. Unfortunately I couldn't
Speaker 4: do that in uh Iran because in the city that
Speaker 4: I lived lived in in cameon Shaw. The university is there,
Speaker 4: they don't have artistic majors. So when I was there,
Speaker 4: I chose architecture because okay, it has argulated. Yeah, so
Speaker 4: I started to a study architecture, but it wasn't really
Speaker 4: a big deal for me.
Speaker 3: I was really, guy, how did you connect? I? First off,
Speaker 3: she roy You're so brave, and you know, we've known
Speaker 3: each other for a few months now. I first spoke
Speaker 3: to Roya through a mutual friend when she was in Paris.
Speaker 3: She was still in Paris and she was seeking to
Speaker 3: go to the UK to join her sister where she
Speaker 3: is now. And and so I think a bunch of
Speaker 3: us just sort of tried to talk to the UK
Speaker 3: government and the American government to try to get her
Speaker 3: visit to one or the other, but preferably the UK
Speaker 3: so she could be with Massa, her sister, her lovely
Speaker 3: sister who I've had I've now had the honor of
Speaker 3: meeting in person both of them, and your courage, Roya.
Speaker 3: You know, like you said, you didn't choose this part.
Speaker 3: Some of us have chosen this path. You didn't, that
Speaker 3: you were thrown into it. But what stands out to
Speaker 3: me is the grace with which you've handled this situation.
Speaker 3: You're impeccable English, which I'm just still I can't believe
Speaker 3: your English is so good, that you conduct yourself in
Speaker 3: these interviews so well. And I think the first time
Speaker 3: I became fully aware of her courage and her and
Speaker 3: just everything she's endured was when she met with President
Speaker 3: mccran and how eloquently you spoke, and the courage and
Speaker 3: how much you inspired so many of us and the
Speaker 3: message of keep going. We need your help because unfortunately
Speaker 3: Roy's story and massive story are not unique, and there's
Speaker 3: so many kids who've lost Now I say, kid, Rory,
Speaker 3: You're not a kid, but you know you'll always be
Speaker 3: a kid to your parents who've lost parents, or parents
Speaker 3: who've lost children and siblings, and the list goes on
Speaker 3: and on. But there's this incredible logan for every person
Speaker 3: who gets killed, a thousand will rise up behind them.
Speaker 3: And I think that's what Roya personifies, is this idea
Speaker 3: of one person standing up and galvanizing thousands of people
Speaker 3: for the cause.
Speaker 2: You know. That brings me to the question of we
Speaker 2: sit over here and see what's going on over there
Speaker 2: and sometimes scratch our heads in terms of how we
Speaker 2: can be helpful and how we can get involved. And
Speaker 2: I'm just wondering if there's a if either one of
Speaker 2: you have any kind of suggestions in terms of that,
Speaker 2: you know, is there a call to action here that
Speaker 2: we can explain to people.
Speaker 3: Yes, and maybe Roya has something to add to this,
Speaker 3: but I would say, please, there's a quite correctly said
Speaker 3: that Iran as a gender apartheid state that isn't legal
Speaker 3: recognized in international law. Apartheid only applies to race, whereas
Speaker 3: countries like Iran and Afghanistan women are segregated for men
Speaker 3: and men and oppressed in a way that can only
Speaker 3: be defined as gender apartheid. To get that legally defined,
Speaker 3: please go to end gender Apartheid dot today and gender
Speaker 3: Apartheid dot today, add your names and amplify as their
Speaker 3: clear instructions of what the campaign is and if you
Speaker 3: want to donate, please donate to Iran Rights dot org,
Speaker 3: the Abduraman Buraman Center and of course Ladan Buraman as
Speaker 3: one of the people who went with Royal to see
Speaker 3: President mccron Iran Rights dot org. Roya, do you have
Speaker 3: anything to add?
Speaker 4: I always say that stand with people, stand on the
Speaker 4: right side up the history. I think we should always
Speaker 4: see the true from the people of a country. So
Speaker 4: listen to them and hear what they have to say.
Speaker 4: I know in the end it's the people that should
Speaker 4: win this revolution and overthrow this regime. But any help, yeah,
Speaker 4: we would appreciate that. We're region go on.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much, thank you, yeah, thank you. I mean,
Speaker 2: roy I just have to say I think you are
Speaker 2: an incredible person. I think that you know, as we mentioned,
Speaker 2: you could run, you could hide, you could stay silent
Speaker 2: for the rest of your life. And and as you
Speaker 2: pointed out, this was not a this was not a choice,
Speaker 2: This was something that was thrust upon you. And to
Speaker 2: stand up in the way that you have given this
Speaker 2: these terrible, terrible circumstances is really nothing short of hero
Speaker 2: and so I wish you all the best with your
Speaker 2: art and your architecture and and.
Speaker 4: Yeah maybe not architecture. I think I'm going to uh
Speaker 4: do an art foundation to just figure it.
Speaker 3: Figure it out.
Speaker 2: That's great, you know, listen to in whatever you want
Speaker 2: to do. I can picture you being great at it.
Speaker 4: Thank you. I need to add I'm in a safe
Speaker 4: country somehow, so I think any Iranians that have been
Speaker 4: victimized by Islamic Republic, if they have a safety zone,
Speaker 4: if they go to a safe country, I think many
Speaker 4: of them would speak up. And I think there are
Speaker 4: there are just a lot of people that are more
Speaker 4: brave than me. We have more carriage than those who
Speaker 4: went to the streets and protested empty with empty hands
Speaker 4: against the guards that had shotguns in their hands or
Speaker 4: even having machine guns, military machine guns like the massacred
Speaker 4: that they did in the Kritish province in Iran. In
Speaker 4: gen or life, life, freedom uprising. I think that is
Speaker 4: the real courage to me.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, thank you for being here, nazing In.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for highlighting this and also for
Speaker 2: your work. Keep up your good work, beautiful work, keep
Speaker 2: doing it. I wish you all the best luck and
Speaker 2: you know you we know that what we what we
Speaker 2: like to talk about on this on this show is that,
Speaker 2: you know, sometimes people that are in the arts also
Speaker 2: care about other things, and you're a perfect example of that.
Speaker 2: And so I applaud you for that and thank you and.
Speaker 3: We thank you for you.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you ever for caring.
Speaker 2: Thank you right, absolutely, all right, Well, take good care.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to another episode of six Degrees with
Speaker 2: Kevin Bacon, Nazenine and Roya's story. It's so poignant, it's
Speaker 2: so relevant. This is a crisis that is going on
Speaker 2: right now. And if you want to learn more about
Speaker 2: woman life freedom movement, head to www dot end Gender
Speaker 2: Apartheid dot today. You can find all the links in
Speaker 2: our show notes. Make sure you subscribe to the show
Speaker 2: and tune into the rest of our episodes. You can
Speaker 2: find six Degrees with Kevin Bacon on iHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts. See you next time.
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