WEBVTT - TechStuff Redux: More AI in Space Than on Earth? Really!?

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, it's us here. I'm traveling this week and next

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<v Speaker 1>week is the fourth of July, so we won't be

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<v Speaker 1>publishing a Week in Tech episode for the next two Fridays,

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<v Speaker 1>but we'll hear from all of our favorite tech contributors

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<v Speaker 1>once again starting July tenth. In the meantime, I wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to share an episode from earlier this year that really

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<v Speaker 1>expanded my understanding of space and the new frontier that's emerging.

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<v Speaker 1>Hope you enjoy Welcome to Tech stuff. I'm as Voloshen,

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<v Speaker 1>and this is the story today. I want to start

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<v Speaker 1>with a clip from a recent interview with Elon Musk.

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<v Speaker 1>Five years from now, my prediction is we will launch

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<v Speaker 1>and be operating every year more AI in space. There

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<v Speaker 1>must stand a cumulative total on Earth. Five years from now,

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<v Speaker 1>we'll have more AI in space than on Earth. On

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<v Speaker 1>the face of it, it seems insane, but I recently

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<v Speaker 1>met someone who painted a compelling vision of humans as

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<v Speaker 1>a spacefaring race, Aerial Explore. She founded MIT's Space Exploration Land.

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<v Speaker 1>She's an inventor and a space venture capital investor. Her

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<v Speaker 1>signature project is self assembling structures in space, essentially magnetic

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<v Speaker 1>prefabs that drag themselves into the correct configuration by magnetic

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<v Speaker 1>attraction after they've been shot into space. The videos of

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<v Speaker 1>this actually working, albeit at small scale, are quite mind blowing.

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<v Speaker 1>An Aeriel is planning to use this technology to build

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<v Speaker 1>livable structures for humans in space. But I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>start with the story of the hour data centers in space,

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<v Speaker 1>which it turns out Aeriel is already working on. I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to know where the AI and space to obsess.

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<v Speaker 1>Billionaires could have the right idea, the computation will be

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<v Speaker 1>more efficient outside our atmosphere. Take a listen.

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<v Speaker 2>The first way I think we should cover for data

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<v Speaker 2>centers is space is not cold in the way that

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<v Speaker 2>people think in the context of Oh, therefore it must

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<v Speaker 2>be easy to cool data center electronics in space. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not that easy in space. You don't have convective cooling.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you think about how data centers are cooled

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<v Speaker 2>on Earth, you literally you flow water through something that's

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<v Speaker 2>touching close to the data center, or you flow air

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<v Speaker 2>through them, and it cools them down because that fluid

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<v Speaker 2>passing by helps.

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<v Speaker 3>Distribute the heat.

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<v Speaker 1>It basically soaks up with the heat.

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<v Speaker 2>The heat in space, there's no fluid and there's no

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<v Speaker 2>air mass, so you don't have the same mechanism of

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<v Speaker 2>just having passive air or even pushed air to go through.

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<v Speaker 2>Your electronics mostly depend on radiative cooling and that's hard.

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<v Speaker 2>So it's not that it's better to put data centers

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<v Speaker 2>in space because space is going to keep them cold.

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<v Speaker 3>That's not the case.

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<v Speaker 2>It's actually that if you're facing permitting issues on Earth

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<v Speaker 2>because of townships, you know, struggling with the water burden

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<v Speaker 2>or the grid burden, or you want to get the

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<v Speaker 2>carbon footprint of all of this energy from the data

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<v Speaker 2>centers off of Earth and into space. Space offers one

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<v Speaker 2>massive advantage, which is raw, unfiltered sunlight above the atmosphere,

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<v Speaker 2>so a much more efficient way to get closer to

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<v Speaker 2>that energy. Is it the simplest place to put a

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<v Speaker 2>data center? No, is it necessarily the most engineering efficient way.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, we could have a little argument about whether

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<v Speaker 2>it is or isn't.

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<v Speaker 3>I think Elon is really arguing that it is.

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<v Speaker 2>There are certain aspects like radiative heat transfer that make

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<v Speaker 2>it difficult but not insurmountable.

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<v Speaker 3>So that's kind of where we are.

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<v Speaker 2>That's my overview take on AI data centers, and we

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<v Speaker 2>are excited for Rendezv ro Robotics, one of the spinouts

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<v Speaker 2>that works within our ecosystem to be part of building

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<v Speaker 2>the self assembly capability that makes it possible to construct

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<v Speaker 2>something that big in orbit.

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<v Speaker 1>So you've actually been working on this problem of data

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<v Speaker 1>centers in space before it became yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, because the challenge is you can't fold up something

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<v Speaker 2>as big as a football field and put it into

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<v Speaker 2>a rocket. That's how we do things now in space, right,

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<v Speaker 2>James Webb Space telescope absolutely exquisite. We fold it up

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<v Speaker 2>like a little toy. We squeeze it in a rocket,

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<v Speaker 2>which is a tiny tube. Even Starship is still small

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<v Speaker 2>by the comparison of what a football field would look like. Right,

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<v Speaker 2>and then we try to get it to space. We

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<v Speaker 2>need modular tiles more like legos, think space legos. If

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<v Speaker 2>you have kids listening to this podcast, magnetiles, right, it's

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<v Speaker 2>a very popular toy these days. That's the kind of

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<v Speaker 2>modular building block that can be packed flat in a rocket,

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<v Speaker 2>much simpler, and then self assemble build by connecting those

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<v Speaker 2>modules in space.

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<v Speaker 3>I love magnets.

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<v Speaker 2>That's our particular approach is to use magnetic field to

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<v Speaker 2>do it, and so yes, we've been working even before

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<v Speaker 2>AI data centers were a big topical obsession, we were

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<v Speaker 2>working on what could be the infrastructure to support them.

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<v Speaker 1>What was the moment that's happened in the last three

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<v Speaker 1>or four months where this way from something that you

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<v Speaker 1>were working on but most people hadn't heard of, to

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<v Speaker 1>something that everyone has an opinion about.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's the incredible drive of capital behind AI,

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<v Speaker 2>the need to power the hyperscalers, the ability to really

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<v Speaker 2>serve this growth in this incredible emerging technology domain, and

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<v Speaker 2>that is leading people to search for creative solutions for

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<v Speaker 2>where to cite energy heavy consumption data centers, and space

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<v Speaker 2>is one opportunity.

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<v Speaker 1>And on the space technology side, the main breakthrough has

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<v Speaker 1>been driving down cost of getting stuff into space exactly right.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's a huge that's a great point in that

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<v Speaker 2>why are we considering space at all for this AI

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<v Speaker 2>data center plays Because in the last fifteen years, the

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<v Speaker 2>cost to get to space has dropped dramatically from about

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<v Speaker 2>fifty thousand US dollars per kilogram in the NASA Shuttle era,

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<v Speaker 2>sometimes quoted even higher, to now a starship coming online

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<v Speaker 2>south of two hundred dollars a kilogram, which is remarkable.

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<v Speaker 2>That's like FedEx. If you can ship something around the world,

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<v Speaker 2>you can ship it to space. Now it's basically like

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<v Speaker 2>cargo cost. So that enables massive amounts of equipment like

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<v Speaker 2>what would be required for an AI data center to be.

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<v Speaker 3>Feasibly shipped to space with a reasonable cost.

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<v Speaker 1>And this happened because of Elon.

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<v Speaker 3>In many ways.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I mean he's really an incredible he in SpaceX

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<v Speaker 2>an incredible driving force of this reduction and launch cost

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<v Speaker 2>because of the invention of reusable rockets. So you can

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<v Speaker 2>imagine how crazy it would be if you flew in

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<v Speaker 2>a seven five seven or an airbus to Europe and

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<v Speaker 2>then you take away right and so Elon realized this

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<v Speaker 2>really early on, along with other companies like Blue Origin

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<v Speaker 2>also have developed a reusable rocket craft. That is really

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<v Speaker 2>the innovation in the space industry that has achieved these

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<v Speaker 2>remarkable dropping costs.

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<v Speaker 1>You wear a lot of hats. You found it that

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<v Speaker 1>the MIT Space Exploration Initiative you run a nonprofit and

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<v Speaker 1>correct me if I like any of these wrong books.

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<v Speaker 1>A nonprofit space architecture lab called Arali Institute, which has

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<v Speaker 1>an associated VC fund called the foundry. Yes. Then you

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<v Speaker 1>have a for profit space for robotics company called Rendezvous Robotics. Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>that's the one that was working with the Nvidia back

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<v Speaker 1>company star Cloud on the data centersance space. Is that

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<v Speaker 1>comprehensive or the other habs as well?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, that is comprehensive.

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<v Speaker 2>But I will say the MIT Space Exploration Initiative, I

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<v Speaker 2>founded it, but we've had an amazing team being taking

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<v Speaker 2>it forward for the last few years. So my focus

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<v Speaker 2>is really on the Aurelia ecosystem. And that's the intersection

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<v Speaker 2>of the nonprofit doing space for the public good, big

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<v Speaker 2>scale infrastructure, and the VC Fund, where we invest in

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<v Speaker 2>stuff that we spin out ourselves internally incubated companies like

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<v Speaker 2>Rendezvous Robotics, but we also invest in best in class

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<v Speaker 2>companies across the space industry like Stoke and Northwood and

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<v Speaker 2>Turing on Space and Lamb Division and others.

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<v Speaker 1>And how do you spend your time? I mean, you've

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<v Speaker 1>got fundraising, You've got capital deployment, you've got pr cause too. Yes.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you still do science as well? And I do, yeah, potitecture.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I try to make sure that I spend

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<v Speaker 2>some time with my team on a regular basis at

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<v Speaker 2>our fabrication facility where we are designing the prototypes of

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<v Speaker 2>things like self assembling tiles. So the idea behind Tessa Ray,

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<v Speaker 2>which is my mitphd thesis, is you can design a

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<v Speaker 2>modular tile. In our case, they're shaped like hexagons and pentagons,

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<v Speaker 2>put powerful little magnets on their edges, toss them up

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<v Speaker 2>into space. When they're floating, the magnets pull them together.

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<v Speaker 2>So we work on iterative prototype development of that system.

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<v Speaker 2>It's now being taken forward by Rendezvous Robotics, but we

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<v Speaker 2>have a collaboration where we are supporting their most recent

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<v Speaker 2>mission with NASA that's going to fly in July of

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<v Speaker 2>this year.

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<v Speaker 3>It's still my passion is.

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<v Speaker 2>To really do the technical work for space hardware that's

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<v Speaker 2>actually really going to fly, that's going to go orbital.

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<v Speaker 2>So I would not want my career to take me

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<v Speaker 2>away from that entirely.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll put a link in the show notes, but there's

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<v Speaker 1>an amazing video. These tiles, which are basically hexagonal tiles,

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<v Speaker 1>go to the International Space Station.

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<v Speaker 2>Right.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, they've gone twice and.

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<v Speaker 1>They sort of throw in the air and like a

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<v Speaker 1>magic tree or not throw in the air, but they're

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<v Speaker 1>released yes, and like a magic tree, they find each

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<v Speaker 1>other and kick together.

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<v Speaker 3>They do.

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<v Speaker 2>I know it looks really wild when you're watching it

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<v Speaker 2>because it's so counterintuitive from our sense of how gravity

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<v Speaker 2>works on Earth. But when you're in zero G, when

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<v Speaker 2>you're in microgravity, because you're in free fall around a planet,

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<v Speaker 2>when you're inside that International Space station, Yeah, the tiles

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<v Speaker 2>pop together. You just release them. They fly towards each

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<v Speaker 2>other kind of gingerly. The tiles themselves start turning to

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<v Speaker 2>fit perfectly, and it's almost like a little ballet. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like someone's orchestrating them to come together, but it's autonomous,

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<v Speaker 2>so they have some propulsional it's just the magnets that

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<v Speaker 2>pull them together. But once they come together, there are

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<v Speaker 2>little sensors that determine, Hey, was that a good neighbor

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<v Speaker 2>or a bad neighbor?

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<v Speaker 1>Was this all your idea? And how do you come

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<v Speaker 1>up with this?

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<v Speaker 2>I was inspired by a presentation that Mary AxMan gave

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<v Speaker 2>when I was at MIT. Sonarry Oxman is just this

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely stunning, inspiring architect and designer, and she gave a

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<v Speaker 2>class called Design Across Scales and invited scalar tippets from

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<v Speaker 2>MIT to come Skalar Tippets runs the self assembly lab

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<v Speaker 2>at MIT, and they were talking about self assembly on Earth,

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<v Speaker 2>and I knew. I was sitting in this audience, thinking

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<v Speaker 2>we should be doing this in space. It's so much

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<v Speaker 2>harder to do it on the ground, which is what

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<v Speaker 2>Skylar's lab was exploring in a bunch of really cool ways.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was very inspired. That was twenty sixteen, so

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<v Speaker 2>ten years ago. It was one of the first classes I.

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<v Speaker 3>Took at MIT.

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<v Speaker 1>At Fast forward ten years and you're now working on

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<v Speaker 1>a commercial application of that for a company back by Nvidio,

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<v Speaker 1>which is the largest company on the US soup market.

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<v Speaker 1>I think, did you imagine that?

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<v Speaker 3>No? Yeah, it's been incredible.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean we're so happy we started ten years ago

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<v Speaker 2>because now it's really it's so advantageous to have this

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<v Speaker 2>technology ready now when the industry is ready for something

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<v Speaker 2>really big like this with AI data centers.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you think that will be the commercial application that

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<v Speaker 1>makes this all real for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I think some combination of AI data centers and

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<v Speaker 2>tennis really large aperture arrays in orbit to improve the

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<v Speaker 2>type of wavelengths that you can get down to the ground. Basically,

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<v Speaker 2>so communications, telecommunications but my long term passion is habitats.

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<v Speaker 1>That's goal is exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>It's like, I really want the long term commercial success

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<v Speaker 2>to be we are self assembling these massive space habitats

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<v Speaker 2>and putting.

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<v Speaker 1>People in them, and what will they do when they

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<v Speaker 1>get there?

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<v Speaker 3>In the next five years.

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<v Speaker 2>This is aggressive timeline to hold myself to, but I

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<v Speaker 2>think in the next five years, maybe seven max, we

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<v Speaker 2>will try to put in orbit a space.

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<v Speaker 3>Orbital bio lab.

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<v Speaker 2>So the first thing it'll be a habitat, it'll be crude,

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<v Speaker 2>but the first thing that these humans are going to

0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:56.679
<v Speaker 2>do is be scientists who are doing tissue engineering in orbit.

0:11:57.120 --> 0:11:59.160
<v Speaker 2>And the reason that's so special is coming back to

0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.480
<v Speaker 2>biology being so different when you're floating. It turns out

0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:06.720
<v Speaker 2>that things like artificial retinas. If you tried to make

0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:09.360
<v Speaker 2>an artificial retina on the ground here where we are today,

0:12:09.840 --> 0:12:13.360
<v Speaker 2>gravity will cause these delicate little layers that you have

0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.280
<v Speaker 2>to do to sag. But if you're floating in space,

0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:21.240
<v Speaker 2>you can get a near perfect matrix of those protein

0:12:21.320 --> 0:12:24.360
<v Speaker 2>layers that make the artificial retina. So we actually are

0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.360
<v Speaker 2>leading the investment round in a company called Lamb Division

0:12:27.760 --> 0:12:32.360
<v Speaker 2>that is making artificial retinas in space. Bringing them back

0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:35.400
<v Speaker 2>down to Earth and they would cure. Right now, they're

0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:39.560
<v Speaker 2>looking at retinitis pigmentosa, but there's also potential for macular degeneration,

0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:44.199
<v Speaker 2>so literally something from space addressing blindness, which is I

0:12:44.240 --> 0:12:47.600
<v Speaker 2>think such a powerful application of space. So it's not

0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:50.400
<v Speaker 2>just ten patients who get to restore their site, but

0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:53.200
<v Speaker 2>it's you know, hundreds of thousands or millions. So that's

0:12:53.240 --> 0:12:54.960
<v Speaker 2>one of the reasons we want in orbital buy all that.

0:12:55.679 --> 0:13:00.679
<v Speaker 1>So as a VC investor, you're better able in theory

0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:06.280
<v Speaker 1>to take macro bets based on the development and acceleration

0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:08.240
<v Speaker 1>of the technology that would allow something that to actually

0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:09.080
<v Speaker 1>be commercialized.

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Yes, the way that I explain why I got into

0:13:11.960 --> 0:13:13.679
<v Speaker 2>VC because I am a scientist, Like why did I

0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.920
<v Speaker 2>decide I wanted to do VC investing. There are things

0:13:17.040 --> 0:13:19.680
<v Speaker 2>I know about in the space industry. Because I've done

0:13:20.040 --> 0:13:24.080
<v Speaker 2>one hundred payloads either to space, to the International Space Station,

0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.640
<v Speaker 2>to the Moon, or on zero gravity flights. I know

0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.440
<v Speaker 2>what's missing. I really intimately know what the pain points are.

0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.040
<v Speaker 2>And the example that I usually give people is if

0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.920
<v Speaker 2>you think about ocean freight on Earth, right, it's slow,

0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:37.480
<v Speaker 2>but it's cheap and it's effective. It just gets you

0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:40.760
<v Speaker 2>across the world inside of the harbor. Once you get

0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:43.760
<v Speaker 2>to Oakland, there's a tug that moves you around where

0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:45.120
<v Speaker 2>you're supposed to go, and then there's a bunch of

0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:49.440
<v Speaker 2>last mile infrastructure in space. We have the rockets now,

0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.040
<v Speaker 2>which is the ocean freight, but where are the space

0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.520
<v Speaker 2>tugs that are moving us in between orbits and doing

0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.160
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of kind of finer tune delivery that's in

0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.840
<v Speaker 2>the space industry what we call ot orbital transit vehicles.

0:14:02.360 --> 0:14:05.520
<v Speaker 3>Someone is going to make a shit ton of money.

0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:08.880
<v Speaker 2>Doing otvs and we all know that, and sometimes people

0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.280
<v Speaker 2>outside of the space industry wouldn't know that. So that's

0:14:11.320 --> 0:14:15.400
<v Speaker 2>a great example of I think unusual information like useful

0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.880
<v Speaker 2>knowledge from being so intimately integrated into the space industry

0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.880
<v Speaker 2>that helps advise our strategy as VC investors.

0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:24.240
<v Speaker 1>When did this love affair with space looking for you?

0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.840
<v Speaker 2>When I was a kid, I was growing up with

0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.400
<v Speaker 2>two Air Force pilot parents. So my dad was an

0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:32.520
<v Speaker 2>ATEN Fighter pilot. My mom is one of the first

0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:34.960
<v Speaker 2>women to get to fly in the United States Air

0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:39.320
<v Speaker 2>Force as a female pilot, and they raised my brother

0:14:39.360 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 2>and I to love science fiction. So they have this

0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.200
<v Speaker 2>service model of leadership in their mind from having served

0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.240
<v Speaker 2>the country. They love exploration and aviation, and then they

0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:51.360
<v Speaker 2>had us read all of the things that would be

0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:52.520
<v Speaker 2>the next chapter after that.

0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:56.040
<v Speaker 3>So the joke is, how do you surpass double pilot? Parents?

0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:59.240
<v Speaker 3>You got to go to space. That's the only thing left.

0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:03.120
<v Speaker 1>No pressure. Yes, were there a particular science fiction book

0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.040
<v Speaker 1>or movie author, short story that really gets the heart

0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:08.560
<v Speaker 1>of who you are today as a builder?

0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:11.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes, there are two related.

0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.920
<v Speaker 2>One is Ringworld, an oldie but goody Larry Niven, really

0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:21.680
<v Speaker 2>stunning grand space architecture idea. How do you build a

0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.720
<v Speaker 2>ring world, something that is a ring at the scale

0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.360
<v Speaker 2>of a planet. This is now something that is coming

0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:30.880
<v Speaker 2>into the window of feasibility because it's not really an

0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.239
<v Speaker 2>open science question anymore. It's a question of engineering, willpower,

0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.760
<v Speaker 2>and funding, and the space industry is starting to converge

0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:41.320
<v Speaker 2>around and in space economy that can make things like

0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.400
<v Speaker 2>this feasible in the next few decades. That's something that

0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:47.920
<v Speaker 2>I just continued to inspire me profoundly. And then the

0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.880
<v Speaker 2>other one is much more modern, is Neil Stevenson's Seven Eves.

0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.160
<v Speaker 2>And one of the things I loved in that book

0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:59.240
<v Speaker 2>is that he envisions swarms of little bio inspired robots

0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:03.360
<v Speaker 2>that have various critical functionalities for the space mission. So

0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:06.560
<v Speaker 2>we built a swarm robot that we call astra Ant,

0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.440
<v Speaker 2>an adorbal little car the size of my thumb, and

0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:12.200
<v Speaker 2>we sent it to the Moon last spring on my

0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.920
<v Speaker 2>team to do that. So it has sensors all over

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 2>the car so it can pick up temperature, can do

0:16:18.160 --> 0:16:21.000
<v Speaker 2>a camera payload, and do imaging on the Moon for

0:16:21.040 --> 0:16:23.440
<v Speaker 2>future iterations. The first one that we sent was very simple,

0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.080
<v Speaker 2>but we're super excited now that we've developed the astra

0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:27.920
<v Speaker 2>Ant and we know it made it safely to the Moon.

0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Now we want to do a swarm deployment of these

0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:34.360
<v Speaker 2>little robots for inspection, diagnostic, and servicing.

0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:38.440
<v Speaker 1>Read out Brigotti, who writes the seventh full newsletter about technology,

0:16:38.480 --> 0:16:41.360
<v Speaker 1>which I very much enjoy as do. I said something

0:16:41.360 --> 0:16:47.320
<v Speaker 1>about the SpaceX XAI combo basically like, yes, it's about

0:16:47.800 --> 0:16:50.560
<v Speaker 1>driving down costs to get rockets into space, Yes, but

0:16:50.600 --> 0:16:52.880
<v Speaker 1>it's also very much about robots. And you can't understand

0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:54.280
<v Speaker 1>this story without understanding robots.

0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 3>Yes, that's so true.

0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.480
<v Speaker 2>Because I focus my life's work around space architecture. I

0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:02.760
<v Speaker 2>really do deeply believe why humans need to go, but

0:17:02.840 --> 0:17:05.520
<v Speaker 2>that's not to say that they're not, you know, profoundly

0:17:05.600 --> 0:17:07.200
<v Speaker 2>supported by robots.

0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:09.359
<v Speaker 1>Why is it important for humans to go to space?

0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:11.959
<v Speaker 3>So I have kind of a three part answer to this.

0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:17.000
<v Speaker 2>The first is just tactical, which is, we learn so

0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:20.400
<v Speaker 2>much by going into space as humans that helps us

0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:23.360
<v Speaker 2>do spin off technologies for life on Earth. So there's

0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.600
<v Speaker 2>a huge history of NASA, you know, Kevlar microwaves, some

0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.640
<v Speaker 2>people say even lays a guy's surgery in some part

0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:29.680
<v Speaker 2>from the Shuttle program.

0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:34.160
<v Speaker 3>So that's very tactical. The second is more strategic.

0:17:34.359 --> 0:17:37.359
<v Speaker 1>So the first is a playback you learned something along

0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:37.800
<v Speaker 1>the way.

0:17:37.720 --> 0:17:39.399
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, you learned something along the way that you wouldn't

0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:41.399
<v Speaker 2>have learned if you didn't send a human, right. The

0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:45.160
<v Speaker 2>second is strategic, which is, we need to go to space,

0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:48.240
<v Speaker 2>and we can absolutely use probes and you know, Mars

0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:51.480
<v Speaker 2>rovers and Venus flybys and things to do this. But

0:17:51.560 --> 0:17:54.080
<v Speaker 2>there's a the more that we learn about especially the

0:17:54.119 --> 0:17:57.919
<v Speaker 2>near neighborhood of our solar system, the more we understand

0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.760
<v Speaker 2>about Earth's longevity and how to plan for planetary health

0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.719
<v Speaker 2>as a system. So a great example of this is

0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.119
<v Speaker 2>when Apollo eight. In nineteen I think it was nineteen

0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.479
<v Speaker 2>sixty eight, on Christmas Eve, flew around the Moon for

0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.120
<v Speaker 2>the first time, took a photo of the Earth rising

0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:18.080
<v Speaker 2>above the Moon. Earth rise, the opposite of moon rise

0:18:18.119 --> 0:18:20.920
<v Speaker 2>that we see on the Earth, and that image, called

0:18:21.000 --> 0:18:25.360
<v Speaker 2>earth Rise, launched the environmental movement in the United States.

0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.880
<v Speaker 2>So that's an example of space exploration when humans are

0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:34.879
<v Speaker 2>involved expanding our concentric circles of awareness as a species,

0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:36.879
<v Speaker 2>and why it's kind of so important for us as

0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.760
<v Speaker 2>a civilization to push out with human life in addition

0:18:39.840 --> 0:18:42.280
<v Speaker 2>to to robots. I don't think we'd be very satisfied

0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:46.439
<v Speaker 2>as a species just doing teleoperation and VR headset viewing

0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:49.800
<v Speaker 2>of some robots life on Mars. Right, we are a

0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:51.919
<v Speaker 2>species that loves knowledge. For the sake of knowledge, we

0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:52.400
<v Speaker 2>need to go.

0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:54.760
<v Speaker 1>That was in ninety sixty eight you mentioned, Yes, is

0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:56.399
<v Speaker 1>it called the overview effect?

0:18:56.480 --> 0:18:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Is that we now have so the image was called

0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:01.800
<v Speaker 2>earth rise. But exactly what you're hitting on this notion

0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:04.800
<v Speaker 2>of seeing the Earth from space is that is known

0:19:04.840 --> 0:19:08.920
<v Speaker 2>as the overview effect, and it famously leads trained military

0:19:09.000 --> 0:19:13.480
<v Speaker 2>men to cry when you're in the vacuum, void darkness

0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:17.080
<v Speaker 2>of space and you look down from your precarious position

0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:21.640
<v Speaker 2>onto this really delicate, beautiful blue marble of a planet

0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.119
<v Speaker 2>and saying, you know, holy cow, this is really something

0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:25.040
<v Speaker 2>worthy of protecting.

0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:26.200
<v Speaker 3>And I think we.

0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Can use space exploration both in the science fiction notion

0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:32.679
<v Speaker 2>of let's go figure out how to live elsewhere, but

0:19:32.720 --> 0:19:35.119
<v Speaker 2>we can also use space exporation in the concept of

0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:38.480
<v Speaker 2>what we're doing at Aurelia Institute, which is space for

0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:42.000
<v Speaker 2>the public good. Do space infrastructure in lower th orbit,

0:19:42.280 --> 0:19:46.200
<v Speaker 2>like AI Data Centers, space based solar power, my current

0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.440
<v Speaker 2>you know, kind of flagship project, which is our orbital biolab.

0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:53.040
<v Speaker 2>Do therapeutics and bioscience that you can only do when

0:19:53.080 --> 0:19:55.280
<v Speaker 2>you're floating that you can't do on the ground. Do

0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:57.840
<v Speaker 2>that kind of stuff in space for the good of

0:19:57.880 --> 0:19:58.520
<v Speaker 2>life on Earth.

0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:00.800
<v Speaker 1>The third well, that was a third one.

0:20:00.840 --> 0:20:02.480
<v Speaker 3>That's the third pie. Yeah, his orbital biolabs.

0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, things like AI Data Centers, space based solar power

0:20:05.400 --> 0:20:07.720
<v Speaker 2>and an orbital biolab. And that I think is what

0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:10.320
<v Speaker 2>I try to reflect in my own work, which is

0:20:10.359 --> 0:20:14.439
<v Speaker 2>think of it as really hard science science fiction, so

0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:18.399
<v Speaker 2>we are grounded, and a bunch of pragmatic near term things.

0:20:18.840 --> 0:20:21.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm investing in a bunch of near term companies that

0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:24.840
<v Speaker 2>I've done my best to honestly, credibly convince my LPs

0:20:24.960 --> 0:20:27.920
<v Speaker 2>will give returns for an ROI focused venture fund in

0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:32.440
<v Speaker 2>the next seven years. But also what do we aimed at?

0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:34.920
<v Speaker 2>And I sometimes think that tech investing needs a little

0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:39.240
<v Speaker 2>bit more of a moral grounding or a grand aspirational grounding.

0:20:39.240 --> 0:20:40.040
<v Speaker 3>What do you aimed at?

0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.919
<v Speaker 2>What's the big picture why of why you're putting all

0:20:42.920 --> 0:20:45.040
<v Speaker 2>this money into stuff? And for me, that is where

0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:49.080
<v Speaker 2>the you know, dreamier large scale vision comes to. Which

0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:52.680
<v Speaker 2>is the benefit of humanity, expanding humanity's horizons and making

0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:54.400
<v Speaker 2>us a space faring species.

0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:01.640
<v Speaker 1>After the break, the environmental costs of commercial space and

0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:09.920
<v Speaker 1>how a space pac man might help stay with us.

0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:15.280
<v Speaker 1>When you're traveling abroad, Wi Fi is always an issue.

0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.320
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0:21:21.800 --> 0:21:23.840
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0:21:29.560 --> 0:21:32.040
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0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:13.240
<v Speaker 1>details in the podcast episode description box. How do you

0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:15.840
<v Speaker 1>think about the cost? I mean, Elon has talked about

0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:18.639
<v Speaker 1>ten thousand launches a year, which I think will be

0:22:18.640 --> 0:22:20.960
<v Speaker 1>one an hour, and that's a lot of a lot

0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:23.680
<v Speaker 1>of gas and a lot of space. Do all those

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:24.640
<v Speaker 1>ones come back at least?

0:22:25.119 --> 0:22:25.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:28.920
<v Speaker 1>Debrisah, debris. How do you think about the environmental cost

0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:30.359
<v Speaker 1>of these dreams?

0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:32.680
<v Speaker 2>This? I think is a critically important topic to try

0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:36.960
<v Speaker 2>to figure out now. So currently the space industry does

0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.800
<v Speaker 2>not have anywhere near the carbon footprint of say aviation,

0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:44.240
<v Speaker 2>But if we succeed in getting to that ten thousand number,

0:22:44.320 --> 0:22:47.680
<v Speaker 2>we absolutely would and maybe have even a more vast impact.

0:22:48.080 --> 0:22:52.000
<v Speaker 2>So there are really important, interesting endeavors to get out

0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:55.920
<v Speaker 2>of this paradigm of chemical rocket propulsion as the only

0:22:55.960 --> 0:22:58.200
<v Speaker 2>way to get master to orbit. And I do think

0:22:58.200 --> 0:22:59.879
<v Speaker 2>that that's really important. Is we need to do that

0:23:00.080 --> 0:23:03.359
<v Speaker 2>search now so that we have a better base on

0:23:03.400 --> 0:23:06.000
<v Speaker 2>which to stand for this growth that's coming in the industry.

0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:08.520
<v Speaker 2>But I do think people who are saying, you know

0:23:08.640 --> 0:23:11.960
<v Speaker 2>right now, oh oh dear, what is the space industry doing,

0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:15.119
<v Speaker 2>Our carbon footprint is quite small compared to aviation, so

0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:17.800
<v Speaker 2>we have that responsibility to take it seriously and innovate

0:23:17.800 --> 0:23:18.520
<v Speaker 2>it around it now.

0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:21.440
<v Speaker 1>And does a debris pose a medium time risk?

0:23:21.640 --> 0:23:24.080
<v Speaker 2>I mean yes, so you're talking about the debris in orbit? Yeah,

0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:28.959
<v Speaker 2>space problem, It certainly is. The diagrams that people may

0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:30.960
<v Speaker 2>have seen on the news are a little bit misleading

0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:34.399
<v Speaker 2>because space is so vast. When you make adot the

0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:36.439
<v Speaker 2>size of a period on a picture to try to

0:23:36.440 --> 0:23:39.640
<v Speaker 2>indicate where the debris is in orbit, you are marking

0:23:39.680 --> 0:23:43.040
<v Speaker 2>out so much space that it's not like the It's

0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:45.520
<v Speaker 2>not as crowded or as fuzzy as it looks on

0:23:45.560 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 2>these images that people see online that are depicting the

0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:49.040
<v Speaker 2>space debris.

0:23:49.119 --> 0:23:50.440
<v Speaker 3>But it is serious.

0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:52.600
<v Speaker 2>Enough that sometimes the International Space Station has had to

0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:57.120
<v Speaker 2>boost itself to avoid space debris or launch timing is changed.

0:23:57.440 --> 0:23:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Because we're tracking the debris, we have a pretty good

0:23:59.400 --> 0:24:00.200
<v Speaker 2>sense of where it is.

0:24:00.440 --> 0:24:01.679
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, it's serious.

0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:04.040
<v Speaker 2>We sometimes see missions that have to plan around it,

0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:05.919
<v Speaker 2>and I think one of the best things that we

0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:10.400
<v Speaker 2>could do is active remediation, so ISSA is really motivated.

0:24:10.400 --> 0:24:14.200
<v Speaker 2>The European Space Agency has some great programs around debris removal,

0:24:14.320 --> 0:24:18.720
<v Speaker 2>companies like Astroscale or planning interesting capability. One of my

0:24:18.760 --> 0:24:21.359
<v Speaker 2>favorite ideas is to basically have a space pac Man

0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:26.600
<v Speaker 2>that goes around and metaphorically eats, but really just collects

0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:30.000
<v Speaker 2>a big ball of debris until there's enough mass in

0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:34.239
<v Speaker 2>that aggregate that it starts to be dragged down in

0:24:34.359 --> 0:24:36.159
<v Speaker 2>orbit a little bit lower in altitude, and then it

0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 2>hits the atmosphere, hits drag and then burns up on reentry.

0:24:39.720 --> 0:24:41.679
<v Speaker 2>So it's like a trash collector for space.

0:24:41.760 --> 0:24:42.520
<v Speaker 3>Little pac Man.

0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:44.920
<v Speaker 2>So, and not to end on a lighthearted note for

0:24:44.920 --> 0:24:47.040
<v Speaker 2>a very serious problem, but yes, I do think that

0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:49.840
<v Speaker 2>space debris is something to contend with, and there are

0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.000
<v Speaker 2>a lot of interesting endeavors that are looking at that

0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:53.280
<v Speaker 2>right now to remediate I.

0:24:53.280 --> 0:24:55.440
<v Speaker 1>Want to understand a little bit more about your vision

0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:58.639
<v Speaker 1>for space habitats. And one of the things I was

0:24:58.760 --> 0:25:02.080
<v Speaker 1>very intrigued by is that you asked a lot of

0:25:02.080 --> 0:25:04.600
<v Speaker 1>astronauts what their experience of space was like and how

0:25:04.600 --> 0:25:07.000
<v Speaker 1>it could be better. Yes, what did you learn from

0:25:07.000 --> 0:25:07.800
<v Speaker 1>those conversations?

0:25:07.920 --> 0:25:11.640
<v Speaker 2>So this is credit to my amazing co founder, Sana Sharma,

0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:13.560
<v Speaker 2>who was a friend of mine in undergrad at Yale

0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:17.439
<v Speaker 2>and then is an amazing designer. She has run this

0:25:17.560 --> 0:25:21.880
<v Speaker 2>astronaut ethnography program. Yeah, through mid What an incredible privilege

0:25:21.920 --> 0:25:23.679
<v Speaker 2>we know, we have to be an MIT and get

0:25:23.720 --> 0:25:26.199
<v Speaker 2>the chance to talk to so many astronauts, and she

0:25:26.680 --> 0:25:30.840
<v Speaker 2>interviewed astronauts from around the world, so not just NASA astronauts,

0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:35.600
<v Speaker 2>but you know, from different nationalities, from private spaceflight participants

0:25:35.640 --> 0:25:39.400
<v Speaker 2>who are not government agency trained astronauts, which as individuals

0:25:39.440 --> 0:25:43.600
<v Speaker 2>who went and she asked them questions that they either

0:25:43.680 --> 0:25:46.560
<v Speaker 2>don't get asked by NASA when they're debriefed, or they

0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:49.000
<v Speaker 2>get asked by NASA but are never made public, which

0:25:49.000 --> 0:25:51.760
<v Speaker 2>are things like what is the most uncomfortable part of

0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.960
<v Speaker 2>living in space? What was the most disgusting experience that

0:25:55.040 --> 0:25:59.399
<v Speaker 2>you had, what was the most profound, beautiful heart you know,

0:25:59.520 --> 0:26:03.119
<v Speaker 2>expand experience that you had. And in particular, she focused

0:26:03.119 --> 0:26:07.000
<v Speaker 2>in on comfort and care, which is something that is

0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:10.640
<v Speaker 2>not a combination often considered in today's space habitats because

0:26:10.640 --> 0:26:17.960
<v Speaker 2>they're mostly occupied by unbelievably qualified, diligent, disciplined individuals top

0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:20.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, points servisors or a one percent of human talent.

0:26:21.200 --> 0:26:23.879
<v Speaker 2>If we're going to start welcoming more people into the

0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:28.760
<v Speaker 2>space industry, into our Aurelia Tessaray space habitats, we have

0:26:28.880 --> 0:26:32.760
<v Speaker 2>to design the interiors so that they're delightful and that

0:26:32.800 --> 0:26:34.840
<v Speaker 2>they don't just look like a science lab. One of

0:26:34.920 --> 0:26:37.720
<v Speaker 2>Sana's favorite quotes from her program is that an astronaut said,

0:26:38.320 --> 0:26:40.399
<v Speaker 2>life in space on the International Space Station is like

0:26:40.440 --> 0:26:43.159
<v Speaker 2>sleeping under your desk in the lab. You know, like

0:26:43.200 --> 0:26:45.719
<v Speaker 2>that's and it's amazing. Many people would give up their

0:26:45.720 --> 0:26:47.679
<v Speaker 2>whole career to get to go do that. But it

0:26:47.720 --> 0:26:50.200
<v Speaker 2>doesn't work for everybody, and we want space to work

0:26:50.280 --> 0:26:53.960
<v Speaker 2>for everybody as much as we can. Right, people often ask, oh,

0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:55.480
<v Speaker 2>what if you have health issues, can you still go

0:26:55.520 --> 0:26:57.840
<v Speaker 2>to space? Actually, many more health issues than you might

0:26:57.880 --> 0:27:00.240
<v Speaker 2>think you can absolutely still go to space. We just

0:27:00.240 --> 0:27:01.960
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't put you in a position where you're going to

0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:05.280
<v Speaker 2>be there for six months or a year. And Sana's work,

0:27:05.320 --> 0:27:09.639
<v Speaker 2>I think has really profoundly inspired and informed how we

0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:13.840
<v Speaker 2>think about interior design, architecture, and comfort and care in

0:27:13.880 --> 0:27:16.240
<v Speaker 2>those next generation habitats that we're building.

0:27:16.480 --> 0:27:18.720
<v Speaker 1>It's really interesting because there was a New York Times

0:27:18.720 --> 0:27:22.760
<v Speaker 1>magazine story last year that I was fascinated by about

0:27:22.760 --> 0:27:28.720
<v Speaker 1>this fake Moon surface or no Mars surface called Mars Asterisk,

0:27:29.200 --> 0:27:31.560
<v Speaker 1>and basically they recruited all these people to go and

0:27:31.600 --> 0:27:34.639
<v Speaker 1>live on Mars in an analog in an analog for

0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:37.119
<v Speaker 1>like five hundred days, and the article was basically about

0:27:37.160 --> 0:27:40.920
<v Speaker 1>how the experiment was essentially designed to psychologically torture the

0:27:40.960 --> 0:27:43.000
<v Speaker 1>people and see how much they could withstand it. There

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:45.520
<v Speaker 1>was no like, there's nothing beyond that really inherent in

0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:48.920
<v Speaker 1>the expedition, and I found it quite kind of depressing

0:27:48.960 --> 0:27:51.560
<v Speaker 1>on a slee to read. So it'sic. It's actually nice

0:27:51.600 --> 0:27:54.000
<v Speaker 1>to hear an alternative vision that space could be fun

0:27:54.040 --> 0:27:56.520
<v Speaker 1>than whimsical and comfortable.

0:27:56.200 --> 0:27:58.320
<v Speaker 3>And comfortable and empowering.

0:27:58.520 --> 0:28:01.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, when you go again, we're standing on the shoulders

0:28:01.160 --> 0:28:03.080
<v Speaker 2>of giants here because we have to make it safe

0:28:03.160 --> 0:28:04.040
<v Speaker 2>first and foremost.

0:28:04.160 --> 0:28:05.960
<v Speaker 3>That unlocks the ability.

0:28:05.560 --> 0:28:07.879
<v Speaker 2>To then think about what if you didn't just have

0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:10.800
<v Speaker 2>to survive in space, but you could thrive in space.

0:28:11.280 --> 0:28:15.119
<v Speaker 2>And we've built a nearly thirty foot mockup of our

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.240
<v Speaker 2>Tessa Ray space habitat. We've exhibited it around a ted

0:28:18.280 --> 0:28:21.160
<v Speaker 2>at Seattle Museum of Flight. When you walk into it,

0:28:21.200 --> 0:28:24.520
<v Speaker 2>we have things like a zero gravity kitchen. What does

0:28:24.560 --> 0:28:27.960
<v Speaker 2>it mean to do fermentation like sour dough or kimchi

0:28:28.040 --> 0:28:32.400
<v Speaker 2>bubbling in space? We have an algae stained glass window.

0:28:33.080 --> 0:28:36.360
<v Speaker 2>The algae is inside of these panels where it gets

0:28:36.400 --> 0:28:38.760
<v Speaker 2>some light from the outside, so you can actually grow

0:28:38.800 --> 0:28:44.040
<v Speaker 2>the algae like cyanobacteria, and then have the algae, in

0:28:44.160 --> 0:28:48.040
<v Speaker 2>partnership with the bacteria, produce something useful for the habitat,

0:28:48.080 --> 0:28:51.680
<v Speaker 2>like oxygen, and that would supplement the life support system.

0:28:51.720 --> 0:28:56.200
<v Speaker 2>So it's both pragmatic and functional, but also hopefully beautiful

0:28:56.440 --> 0:28:57.560
<v Speaker 2>and stunning.

0:28:58.040 --> 0:29:02.120
<v Speaker 1>So take me from where we are today to people

0:29:02.200 --> 0:29:05.680
<v Speaker 1>being inside these environments in space, or maybe take you

0:29:05.720 --> 0:29:08.200
<v Speaker 1>back from people being in the environers in space to

0:29:08.200 --> 0:29:10.400
<v Speaker 1>where we are today, because here are some of the

0:29:10.440 --> 0:29:12.960
<v Speaker 1>problems that come to mind or I guess scale is

0:29:12.960 --> 0:29:18.520
<v Speaker 1>one thing. I guess, the reliability of the parts connecting

0:29:18.560 --> 0:29:23.040
<v Speaker 1>successfully is one thing. I guess, the maintenance is another ye.

0:29:23.320 --> 0:29:25.120
<v Speaker 1>And the challenge of getting people to and from that's

0:29:25.120 --> 0:29:27.560
<v Speaker 1>already been solved. Essentially, it's the same docking technology if

0:29:27.640 --> 0:29:27.920
<v Speaker 1>used on.

0:29:27.840 --> 0:29:31.760
<v Speaker 2>The as precise well actually some combination of ISS and SpaceX,

0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:35.320
<v Speaker 2>So we will try to be as agnostic as possible.

0:29:35.320 --> 0:29:36.800
<v Speaker 2>We are going to have to pick a standard, but

0:29:37.160 --> 0:29:39.800
<v Speaker 2>exactly to your point, we are lucky in that we're

0:29:39.800 --> 0:29:42.200
<v Speaker 2>not having to be the rocket transportation. We're going to

0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:45.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, leverage the SpaceX delivery or other companies that

0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:47.200
<v Speaker 2>will be able to come and dock. And I do

0:29:47.320 --> 0:29:49.880
<v Speaker 2>think for that five year timeframe that I gave you

0:29:49.920 --> 0:29:53.360
<v Speaker 2>five to seven years for an orbital biolab, most likely

0:29:53.400 --> 0:29:57.360
<v Speaker 2>that will be us self assembling this module and attaching

0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:01.239
<v Speaker 2>it to one of the commercial space stations that are

0:30:01.240 --> 0:30:03.640
<v Speaker 2>getting built that not very many people know about. More

0:30:03.640 --> 0:30:06.520
<v Speaker 2>people should know about these that will be the replacement

0:30:06.800 --> 0:30:09.880
<v Speaker 2>to the International Space Station. So the ISS has been

0:30:09.960 --> 0:30:12.400
<v Speaker 2>up since the I think it was like maybe completed

0:30:12.400 --> 0:30:14.600
<v Speaker 2>the design in nineteen ninety eight, flew in early two

0:30:14.680 --> 0:30:17.720
<v Speaker 2>thousand so over twenty years, it's old.

0:30:18.040 --> 0:30:20.880
<v Speaker 3>It's like any home. It really desperately needs a reno.

0:30:21.120 --> 0:30:23.080
<v Speaker 2>And what NASA has decided is that we're going to

0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:27.600
<v Speaker 2>decommission the International Space Station. NASA has been incentivizing a

0:30:27.720 --> 0:30:31.560
<v Speaker 2>range of for profit companies to build their own commercial

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:35.000
<v Speaker 2>space stations in orbit. They will be basically the follow

0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:37.360
<v Speaker 2>on to the ISS, and then we would like to

0:30:38.200 --> 0:30:42.200
<v Speaker 2>assemble and then attach our tests array self assembling module

0:30:42.240 --> 0:30:44.560
<v Speaker 2>if it's an orbal to biolab, attach it to one

0:30:44.600 --> 0:30:49.880
<v Speaker 2>of these providers like Axiom or VAST or Voyager star Lab,

0:30:49.920 --> 0:30:53.400
<v Speaker 2>who are going to be these next future commercial space stations.

0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:56.840
<v Speaker 1>Do you have absolute confidence that you will go to

0:30:56.880 --> 0:31:01.360
<v Speaker 1>space in one of your tessaray assembled domes.

0:31:01.600 --> 0:31:05.080
<v Speaker 2>I better, Yes, I think I certainly have the courage

0:31:05.080 --> 0:31:07.840
<v Speaker 2>and the desire to go. I think there's nothing worse

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:10.960
<v Speaker 2>than an architect that doesn't live and inhabit their own space.

0:31:11.320 --> 0:31:13.600
<v Speaker 2>So yes, I do think I'm bullish on the fact

0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:16.960
<v Speaker 2>that in my lifetime I will get a chance to

0:31:17.000 --> 0:31:20.640
<v Speaker 2>build one of these designs to human occupancy rating and

0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:21.880
<v Speaker 2>hopefully go myself.

0:31:22.000 --> 0:31:24.400
<v Speaker 1>Yes, just before we close, and I know this idea

0:31:24.400 --> 0:31:28.440
<v Speaker 1>of democratizing space is something which is motivating for you.

0:31:28.680 --> 0:31:28.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes.

0:31:30.520 --> 0:31:33.200
<v Speaker 1>On the other hand, many people feel like space is

0:31:33.240 --> 0:31:37.320
<v Speaker 1>becoming more of a colonial environment than a democratic environment,

0:31:37.360 --> 0:31:40.920
<v Speaker 1>whether it's you know, obviously US China space conflict, or

0:31:41.600 --> 0:31:45.400
<v Speaker 1>you know Elon and Jeff Bezos, who are seen by

0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:48.640
<v Speaker 1>many as oligarchs who are trying to do a land

0:31:48.720 --> 0:31:52.560
<v Speaker 1>grab in space. And so those are people who you

0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:55.480
<v Speaker 1>work with, either directly or indirectly, whose platform technology is

0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:58.560
<v Speaker 1>enabled what you're doing, but his goals may not be

0:31:58.600 --> 0:31:59.320
<v Speaker 1>the same as yours.

0:32:00.280 --> 0:32:03.080
<v Speaker 2>Such just sing point, I would say, I'm actually really

0:32:03.160 --> 0:32:06.440
<v Speaker 2>grateful to SpaceX and Blue Origin for what they're doing.

0:32:06.480 --> 0:32:08.240
<v Speaker 2>I don't view it so much as oligarchs as I

0:32:08.320 --> 0:32:12.240
<v Speaker 2>view it as it's like the beginning of commercial air

0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:16.239
<v Speaker 2>travel in the nineteen forties and fifties, where initially it

0:32:16.560 --> 0:32:21.200
<v Speaker 2>was a very expensive only military activity. Then it became

0:32:21.240 --> 0:32:24.040
<v Speaker 2>a commercial activity, but it was a luxury activity, and

0:32:24.080 --> 0:32:26.400
<v Speaker 2>then over time the costs dropped and it became this

0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:31.120
<v Speaker 2>incredibly empowering opportunity where you and I, as not particularly

0:32:31.160 --> 0:32:33.120
<v Speaker 2>crazy fancy people, get to hop on a plane and

0:32:33.120 --> 0:32:37.360
<v Speaker 2>goal around the world. That is the progression that Elon

0:32:37.440 --> 0:32:39.360
<v Speaker 2>and really to give credit to gwenn Shot well as

0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:42.360
<v Speaker 2>well at SpaceX and Blue Origin and Bezos and many

0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:43.120
<v Speaker 2>other companies.

0:32:43.520 --> 0:32:44.960
<v Speaker 3>That's what they're trying to achieve.

0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:48.080
<v Speaker 2>And I think the media has hit on this notion

0:32:48.160 --> 0:32:50.640
<v Speaker 2>of oh, it's just the high net worth individuals going

0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:53.640
<v Speaker 2>to space, because they cover Richard Branson going and Bezos going.

0:32:54.320 --> 0:32:57.840
<v Speaker 2>But these gentlemen and their companies, if their companies are

0:32:57.880 --> 0:33:01.440
<v Speaker 2>going to succeed, they have to scale to democratize access

0:33:01.440 --> 0:33:03.640
<v Speaker 2>to space. That's where the customers really come from. So

0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:06.720
<v Speaker 2>I think in the long term their incentives are aligned

0:33:07.240 --> 0:33:08.760
<v Speaker 2>with one of my goals, which is how do we

0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:12.600
<v Speaker 2>democratize access to space? For my other mission elements in

0:33:12.640 --> 0:33:15.640
<v Speaker 2>the nonprofit where we want to think about are we

0:33:15.720 --> 0:33:18.720
<v Speaker 2>being good stewards of the space commons, How can we

0:33:18.720 --> 0:33:21.080
<v Speaker 2>make sure that we don't contribute to space debris? How

0:33:21.080 --> 0:33:23.800
<v Speaker 2>can we be a little thoughtful about precedent setting on

0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:27.959
<v Speaker 2>the Moon, maybe avoiding strict ownership and competition and potential

0:33:28.040 --> 0:33:31.000
<v Speaker 2>geopolitical conflict. I think that there is a role for

0:33:31.040 --> 0:33:34.320
<v Speaker 2>a nonprofit like us to do interesting thought leadership, to

0:33:34.400 --> 0:33:37.560
<v Speaker 2>try to shape the future of space, to be principled

0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:42.760
<v Speaker 2>and inclusive and exciting, so that more people like my dad.

0:33:42.800 --> 0:33:45.200
<v Speaker 2>My dad was born in the fifties. He when he

0:33:45.240 --> 0:33:47.920
<v Speaker 2>was a kid, saw the moon landing and was convinced

0:33:48.080 --> 0:33:50.560
<v Speaker 2>than in his lifetime he would get to go. We

0:33:50.600 --> 0:33:53.040
<v Speaker 2>had this interregnum where because we lost funding with the

0:33:53.040 --> 0:33:56.400
<v Speaker 2>Cold War, we stopped investing in space as heavily. This time,

0:33:56.840 --> 0:33:58.960
<v Speaker 2>I think will be profoundly different because we have an

0:33:58.960 --> 0:34:02.800
<v Speaker 2>economy that's fueled by these companies that you mentioned, making

0:34:02.840 --> 0:34:06.200
<v Speaker 2>it possible for truly, like if there are people listening

0:34:06.240 --> 0:34:08.880
<v Speaker 2>to this podcast that have kids, for your kids to

0:34:08.960 --> 0:34:12.760
<v Speaker 2>commute to space for work in the next ten years.

0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:16.759
<v Speaker 1>Just to press you, there is also a darker potentiality, right,

0:34:16.800 --> 0:34:19.400
<v Speaker 1>And going back to our friend read Albergotti, he wrote

0:34:19.400 --> 0:34:22.600
<v Speaker 1>in that news letter, the nineteen sixty seven Out of

0:34:22.640 --> 0:34:25.839
<v Speaker 1>Space Treaty makes space subject international law, but a more

0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:28.520
<v Speaker 1>recent US law allows companies to keep what they mind.

0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:29.880
<v Speaker 3>Out there ar domiss records.

0:34:29.960 --> 0:34:32.280
<v Speaker 1>Yep, it will eventually. It will mean a borderless internet

0:34:32.320 --> 0:34:34.560
<v Speaker 1>and an industrial supply chain that is beyond the reach

0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:38.440
<v Speaker 1>or control of any country. Science fiction has plenty of

0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:40.680
<v Speaker 1>warnings for what these companies might look like.

0:34:41.360 --> 0:34:42.200
<v Speaker 3>Yes, that's true.

0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:45.080
<v Speaker 2>One of the things we're we've thought about in the

0:34:45.120 --> 0:34:47.799
<v Speaker 2>context of policy for the Moon, for example, is how

0:34:47.800 --> 0:34:51.480
<v Speaker 2>do we avoid a mill town and the exploitativeness of

0:34:51.520 --> 0:34:53.359
<v Speaker 2>a mill town. So if you remember mill town's where

0:34:53.400 --> 0:34:57.640
<v Speaker 2>the company store basically owns all of their employees and

0:34:57.680 --> 0:35:00.680
<v Speaker 2>they're exploitative, it's hard for them to leave. Can imagine

0:35:01.080 --> 0:35:04.560
<v Speaker 2>some company operating on the Moon decides that they own

0:35:04.640 --> 0:35:07.640
<v Speaker 2>your air because they transported you there as an employee,

0:35:07.640 --> 0:35:09.640
<v Speaker 2>and you can't just walk outside and go home. You'd

0:35:09.640 --> 0:35:11.480
<v Speaker 2>have to be dependent on them to get back to Earth.

0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:15.480
<v Speaker 2>There's all these different potentials that the Summer four article

0:35:15.520 --> 0:35:18.200
<v Speaker 2>and comment hits on, and I think one of the

0:35:18.320 --> 0:35:22.040
<v Speaker 2>jobs of creators of this technology, like us, is to say,

0:35:23.080 --> 0:35:28.360
<v Speaker 2>let's work on some combination of technological solutions that mitigate

0:35:28.400 --> 0:35:30.760
<v Speaker 2>some of the risks like space debris or green propulsion

0:35:30.800 --> 0:35:34.080
<v Speaker 2>for the carbon footprint. Let's also work on policy frameworks

0:35:34.520 --> 0:35:38.920
<v Speaker 2>and regulatory frameworks that seed in some of the values

0:35:38.960 --> 0:35:41.799
<v Speaker 2>that we care about in an open and free society.

0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:45.200
<v Speaker 2>We don't have to give up and say, oh man,

0:35:45.239 --> 0:35:46.520
<v Speaker 2>it's just going to be a gold rush, and we're

0:35:46.520 --> 0:35:48.400
<v Speaker 2>going to let the Moon be chopped up and be

0:35:48.480 --> 0:35:51.880
<v Speaker 2>treated in a way that seeds these dystopian futures. It

0:35:51.920 --> 0:35:54.920
<v Speaker 2>really is a moment to say, this is our responsibility,

0:35:54.920 --> 0:35:58.240
<v Speaker 2>this is the time let's do some you know, regulatory

0:35:58.280 --> 0:36:01.640
<v Speaker 2>and policy work to try to put a better future

0:36:01.640 --> 0:36:03.640
<v Speaker 2>in place. And I think that that is something we

0:36:03.680 --> 0:36:06.600
<v Speaker 2>certainly work on at Aurelia Institute. There are amazing groups

0:36:06.600 --> 0:36:09.160
<v Speaker 2>like Open Lunar Foundation that are also looking at this.

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:12.000
<v Speaker 2>We're certainly not alone in it, but it is I

0:36:12.000 --> 0:36:14.840
<v Speaker 2>think worthy of you pressing me on because now is

0:36:14.880 --> 0:36:17.000
<v Speaker 2>the time to figure that out in a principled fashion

0:36:17.000 --> 0:36:18.759
<v Speaker 2>and not wait to see how it plays out and

0:36:18.800 --> 0:36:19.959
<v Speaker 2>then try to fix it later.

0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:22.560
<v Speaker 1>Ery, I can't think of a better place to and

0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:22.960
<v Speaker 1>thank you.

0:36:23.280 --> 0:36:24.840
<v Speaker 3>Thank you so much. It is a pleasure.

0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:37.080
<v Speaker 1>That's if it techs Stuff this week, I'm OsO Loosian.

0:36:37.600 --> 0:36:40.440
<v Speaker 1>This episode was produced by Elisa Dennis and Melissa Slaughter.

0:36:41.040 --> 0:36:44.480
<v Speaker 1>It was executive produced by me Karen Price, Julian Nutta,

0:36:45.000 --> 0:36:49.239
<v Speaker 1>and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina novelve iHeart Podcasts.

0:36:49.840 --> 0:36:53.960
<v Speaker 1>The engineer is Kathleen Conti and Jack Insley makes this episode.

0:36:54.280 --> 0:36:58.120
<v Speaker 1>Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Please do rate, review

0:36:58.200 --> 0:37:00.279
<v Speaker 1>and reach out to us at tech Stuff Pod Cars

0:37:00.360 --> 0:37:07.960
<v Speaker 1>at gmail dot com. Mm hmm