1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: Hey, it's us here. I'm traveling this week and next 2 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: week is the fourth of July, so we won't be 3 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: publishing a Week in Tech episode for the next two Fridays, 4 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: but we'll hear from all of our favorite tech contributors 5 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: once again starting July tenth. In the meantime, I wanted 6 00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: to share an episode from earlier this year that really 7 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 1: expanded my understanding of space and the new frontier that's emerging. 8 00:00:21,320 --> 00:00:37,879 Speaker 1: Hope you enjoy Welcome to Tech stuff. I'm as Voloshen, 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: and this is the story today. I want to start 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,160 Speaker 1: with a clip from a recent interview with Elon Musk. 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:46,880 Speaker 1: Five years from now, my prediction is we will launch 12 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 1: and be operating every year more AI in space. There 13 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: must stand a cumulative total on Earth. Five years from now, 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 1: we'll have more AI in space than on Earth. On 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: the face of it, it seems insane, but I recently 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 1: met someone who painted a compelling vision of humans as 17 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: a spacefaring race, Aerial Explore. She founded MIT's Space Exploration Land. 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 1: She's an inventor and a space venture capital investor. Her 19 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: signature project is self assembling structures in space, essentially magnetic 20 00:01:22,880 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: prefabs that drag themselves into the correct configuration by magnetic 21 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: attraction after they've been shot into space. The videos of 22 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: this actually working, albeit at small scale, are quite mind blowing. 23 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: An Aeriel is planning to use this technology to build 24 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: livable structures for humans in space. But I wanted to 25 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: start with the story of the hour data centers in space, 26 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: which it turns out Aeriel is already working on. I 27 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 1: wanted to know where the AI and space to obsess. 28 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: Billionaires could have the right idea, the computation will be 29 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:01,200 Speaker 1: more efficient outside our atmosphere. Take a listen. 30 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 2: The first way I think we should cover for data 31 00:02:05,960 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 2: centers is space is not cold in the way that 32 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: people think in the context of Oh, therefore it must 33 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 2: be easy to cool data center electronics in space. Unfortunately, 34 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 2: it's not that easy in space. You don't have convective cooling. 35 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 2: So if you think about how data centers are cooled 36 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,240 Speaker 2: on Earth, you literally you flow water through something that's 37 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 2: touching close to the data center, or you flow air 38 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,000 Speaker 2: through them, and it cools them down because that fluid 39 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 2: passing by helps. 40 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 3: Distribute the heat. 41 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: It basically soaks up with the heat. 42 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: The heat in space, there's no fluid and there's no 43 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: air mass, so you don't have the same mechanism of 44 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 2: just having passive air or even pushed air to go through. 45 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 2: Your electronics mostly depend on radiative cooling and that's hard. 46 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,840 Speaker 2: So it's not that it's better to put data centers 47 00:02:55,840 --> 00:02:57,720 Speaker 2: in space because space is going to keep them cold. 48 00:02:57,760 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: That's not the case. 49 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: It's actually that if you're facing permitting issues on Earth 50 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 2: because of townships, you know, struggling with the water burden 51 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:07,959 Speaker 2: or the grid burden, or you want to get the 52 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: carbon footprint of all of this energy from the data 53 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 2: centers off of Earth and into space. Space offers one 54 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 2: massive advantage, which is raw, unfiltered sunlight above the atmosphere, 55 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 2: so a much more efficient way to get closer to 56 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 2: that energy. Is it the simplest place to put a 57 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:28,520 Speaker 2: data center? No, is it necessarily the most engineering efficient way. 58 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 2: You know, we could have a little argument about whether 59 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:31,839 Speaker 2: it is or isn't. 60 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 3: I think Elon is really arguing that it is. 61 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: There are certain aspects like radiative heat transfer that make 62 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 2: it difficult but not insurmountable. 63 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: So that's kind of where we are. 64 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 2: That's my overview take on AI data centers, and we 65 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: are excited for Rendezv ro Robotics, one of the spinouts 66 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,120 Speaker 2: that works within our ecosystem to be part of building 67 00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 2: the self assembly capability that makes it possible to construct 68 00:03:54,040 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: something that big in orbit. 69 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: So you've actually been working on this problem of data 70 00:03:58,120 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: centers in space before it became yes. 71 00:04:01,040 --> 00:04:04,920 Speaker 2: Yes, because the challenge is you can't fold up something 72 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 2: as big as a football field and put it into 73 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: a rocket. That's how we do things now in space, right, 74 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 2: James Webb Space telescope absolutely exquisite. We fold it up 75 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,479 Speaker 2: like a little toy. We squeeze it in a rocket, 76 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 2: which is a tiny tube. Even Starship is still small 77 00:04:19,960 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 2: by the comparison of what a football field would look like. Right, 78 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 2: and then we try to get it to space. We 79 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 2: need modular tiles more like legos, think space legos. If 80 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: you have kids listening to this podcast, magnetiles, right, it's 81 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 2: a very popular toy these days. That's the kind of 82 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: modular building block that can be packed flat in a rocket, 83 00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: much simpler, and then self assemble build by connecting those 84 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 2: modules in space. 85 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 3: I love magnets. 86 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 2: That's our particular approach is to use magnetic field to 87 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 2: do it, and so yes, we've been working even before 88 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: AI data centers were a big topical obsession, we were 89 00:04:54,120 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 2: working on what could be the infrastructure to support them. 90 00:04:57,120 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: What was the moment that's happened in the last three 91 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: or four months where this way from something that you 92 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,479 Speaker 1: were working on but most people hadn't heard of, to 93 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 1: something that everyone has an opinion about. 94 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: I think it's the incredible drive of capital behind AI, 95 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 2: the need to power the hyperscalers, the ability to really 96 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 2: serve this growth in this incredible emerging technology domain, and 97 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,159 Speaker 2: that is leading people to search for creative solutions for 98 00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 2: where to cite energy heavy consumption data centers, and space 99 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:26,840 Speaker 2: is one opportunity. 100 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: And on the space technology side, the main breakthrough has 101 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: been driving down cost of getting stuff into space exactly right. 102 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:35,159 Speaker 2: So that's a huge that's a great point in that 103 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: why are we considering space at all for this AI 104 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 2: data center plays Because in the last fifteen years, the 105 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 2: cost to get to space has dropped dramatically from about 106 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:48,760 Speaker 2: fifty thousand US dollars per kilogram in the NASA Shuttle era, 107 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: sometimes quoted even higher, to now a starship coming online 108 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 2: south of two hundred dollars a kilogram, which is remarkable. 109 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,160 Speaker 2: That's like FedEx. If you can ship something around the world, 110 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 2: you can ship it to space. Now it's basically like 111 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: cargo cost. So that enables massive amounts of equipment like 112 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 2: what would be required for an AI data center to be. 113 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 3: Feasibly shipped to space with a reasonable cost. 114 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: And this happened because of Elon. 115 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:15,840 Speaker 3: In many ways. 116 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean he's really an incredible he in SpaceX 117 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 2: an incredible driving force of this reduction and launch cost 118 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: because of the invention of reusable rockets. So you can 119 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: imagine how crazy it would be if you flew in 120 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 2: a seven five seven or an airbus to Europe and 121 00:06:33,200 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 2: then you take away right and so Elon realized this 122 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 2: really early on, along with other companies like Blue Origin 123 00:06:39,720 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 2: also have developed a reusable rocket craft. That is really 124 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 2: the innovation in the space industry that has achieved these 125 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 2: remarkable dropping costs. 126 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 1: You wear a lot of hats. You found it that 127 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,360 Speaker 1: the MIT Space Exploration Initiative you run a nonprofit and 128 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:56,679 Speaker 1: correct me if I like any of these wrong books. 129 00:06:56,880 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: A nonprofit space architecture lab called Arali Institute, which has 130 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 1: an associated VC fund called the foundry. Yes. Then you 131 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: have a for profit space for robotics company called Rendezvous Robotics. Yes, 132 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: that's the one that was working with the Nvidia back 133 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: company star Cloud on the data centersance space. Is that 134 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,520 Speaker 1: comprehensive or the other habs as well? 135 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: Yes, that is comprehensive. 136 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: But I will say the MIT Space Exploration Initiative, I 137 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,440 Speaker 2: founded it, but we've had an amazing team being taking 138 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: it forward for the last few years. So my focus 139 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 2: is really on the Aurelia ecosystem. And that's the intersection 140 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: of the nonprofit doing space for the public good, big 141 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,080 Speaker 2: scale infrastructure, and the VC Fund, where we invest in 142 00:07:38,280 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 2: stuff that we spin out ourselves internally incubated companies like 143 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 2: Rendezvous Robotics, but we also invest in best in class 144 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:51,160 Speaker 2: companies across the space industry like Stoke and Northwood and 145 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: Turing on Space and Lamb Division and others. 146 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:56,240 Speaker 1: And how do you spend your time? I mean, you've 147 00:07:56,240 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: got fundraising, You've got capital deployment, you've got pr cause too. Yes. 148 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: Do you still do science as well? And I do, yeah, potitecture. 149 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 2: I mean I try to make sure that I spend 150 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: some time with my team on a regular basis at 151 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 2: our fabrication facility where we are designing the prototypes of 152 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 2: things like self assembling tiles. So the idea behind Tessa Ray, 153 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,720 Speaker 2: which is my mitphd thesis, is you can design a 154 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: modular tile. In our case, they're shaped like hexagons and pentagons, 155 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 2: put powerful little magnets on their edges, toss them up 156 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: into space. When they're floating, the magnets pull them together. 157 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 2: So we work on iterative prototype development of that system. 158 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: It's now being taken forward by Rendezvous Robotics, but we 159 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 2: have a collaboration where we are supporting their most recent 160 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 2: mission with NASA that's going to fly in July of 161 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 2: this year. 162 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 3: It's still my passion is. 163 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 2: To really do the technical work for space hardware that's 164 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: actually really going to fly, that's going to go orbital. 165 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 2: So I would not want my career to take me 166 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:57,160 Speaker 2: away from that entirely. 167 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:58,839 Speaker 1: We'll put a link in the show notes, but there's 168 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: an amazing video. These tiles, which are basically hexagonal tiles, 169 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 1: go to the International Space Station. 170 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: Right. 171 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:08,559 Speaker 3: Yeah, they've gone twice and. 172 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: They sort of throw in the air and like a 173 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: magic tree or not throw in the air, but they're 174 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,679 Speaker 1: released yes, and like a magic tree, they find each 175 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: other and kick together. 176 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:16,120 Speaker 3: They do. 177 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 2: I know it looks really wild when you're watching it 178 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 2: because it's so counterintuitive from our sense of how gravity 179 00:09:21,480 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 2: works on Earth. But when you're in zero G, when 180 00:09:24,600 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 2: you're in microgravity, because you're in free fall around a planet, 181 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: when you're inside that International Space station, Yeah, the tiles 182 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: pop together. You just release them. They fly towards each 183 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: other kind of gingerly. The tiles themselves start turning to 184 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,280 Speaker 2: fit perfectly, and it's almost like a little ballet. It's 185 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 2: like someone's orchestrating them to come together, but it's autonomous, 186 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:47,440 Speaker 2: so they have some propulsional it's just the magnets that 187 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 2: pull them together. But once they come together, there are 188 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,800 Speaker 2: little sensors that determine, Hey, was that a good neighbor 189 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 2: or a bad neighbor? 190 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: Was this all your idea? And how do you come 191 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 1: up with this? 192 00:09:56,200 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 2: I was inspired by a presentation that Mary AxMan gave 193 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 2: when I was at MIT. Sonarry Oxman is just this 194 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 2: absolutely stunning, inspiring architect and designer, and she gave a 195 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,560 Speaker 2: class called Design Across Scales and invited scalar tippets from 196 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,400 Speaker 2: MIT to come Skalar Tippets runs the self assembly lab 197 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: at MIT, and they were talking about self assembly on Earth, 198 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: and I knew. I was sitting in this audience, thinking 199 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 2: we should be doing this in space. It's so much 200 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 2: harder to do it on the ground, which is what 201 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: Skylar's lab was exploring in a bunch of really cool ways. 202 00:10:29,120 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: So I was very inspired. That was twenty sixteen, so 203 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,200 Speaker 2: ten years ago. It was one of the first classes I. 204 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:34,920 Speaker 3: Took at MIT. 205 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 1: At Fast forward ten years and you're now working on 206 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: a commercial application of that for a company back by Nvidio, 207 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,880 Speaker 1: which is the largest company on the US soup market. 208 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 1: I think, did you imagine that? 209 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 3: No? Yeah, it's been incredible. 210 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 2: I mean we're so happy we started ten years ago 211 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 2: because now it's really it's so advantageous to have this 212 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 2: technology ready now when the industry is ready for something 213 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: really big like this with AI data centers. 214 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: Do you think that will be the commercial application that 215 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 1: makes this all real for you? 216 00:11:05,960 --> 00:11:09,320 Speaker 2: Yes, I think some combination of AI data centers and 217 00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:15,080 Speaker 2: tennis really large aperture arrays in orbit to improve the 218 00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: type of wavelengths that you can get down to the ground. Basically, 219 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: so communications, telecommunications but my long term passion is habitats. 220 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: That's goal is exactly. 221 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 2: It's like, I really want the long term commercial success 222 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: to be we are self assembling these massive space habitats 223 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: and putting. 224 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: People in them, and what will they do when they 225 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: get there? 226 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 3: In the next five years. 227 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 2: This is aggressive timeline to hold myself to, but I 228 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: think in the next five years, maybe seven max, we 229 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:46,359 Speaker 2: will try to put in orbit a space. 230 00:11:46,160 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 3: Orbital bio lab. 231 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 2: So the first thing it'll be a habitat, it'll be crude, 232 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: but the first thing that these humans are going to 233 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,679 Speaker 2: do is be scientists who are doing tissue engineering in orbit. 234 00:11:57,120 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 2: And the reason that's so special is coming back to 235 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 2: biology being so different when you're floating. It turns out 236 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 2: that things like artificial retinas. If you tried to make 237 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 2: an artificial retina on the ground here where we are today, 238 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: gravity will cause these delicate little layers that you have 239 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: to do to sag. But if you're floating in space, 240 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,240 Speaker 2: you can get a near perfect matrix of those protein 241 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 2: layers that make the artificial retina. So we actually are 242 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 2: leading the investment round in a company called Lamb Division 243 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: that is making artificial retinas in space. Bringing them back 244 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 2: down to Earth and they would cure. Right now, they're 245 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 2: looking at retinitis pigmentosa, but there's also potential for macular degeneration, 246 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:44,199 Speaker 2: so literally something from space addressing blindness, which is I 247 00:12:44,240 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 2: think such a powerful application of space. So it's not 248 00:12:47,720 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 2: just ten patients who get to restore their site, but 249 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 2: it's you know, hundreds of thousands or millions. So that's 250 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: one of the reasons we want in orbital buy all that. 251 00:12:55,679 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: So as a VC investor, you're better able in theory 252 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: to take macro bets based on the development and acceleration 253 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:08,240 Speaker 1: of the technology that would allow something that to actually 254 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:09,080 Speaker 1: be commercialized. 255 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: Yes, the way that I explain why I got into 256 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 2: VC because I am a scientist, Like why did I 257 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 2: decide I wanted to do VC investing. There are things 258 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 2: I know about in the space industry. Because I've done 259 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,080 Speaker 2: one hundred payloads either to space, to the International Space Station, 260 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 2: to the Moon, or on zero gravity flights. I know 261 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 2: what's missing. I really intimately know what the pain points are. 262 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: And the example that I usually give people is if 263 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 2: you think about ocean freight on Earth, right, it's slow, 264 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 2: but it's cheap and it's effective. It just gets you 265 00:13:37,520 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: across the world inside of the harbor. Once you get 266 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 2: to Oakland, there's a tug that moves you around where 267 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 2: you're supposed to go, and then there's a bunch of 268 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 2: last mile infrastructure in space. We have the rockets now, 269 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 2: which is the ocean freight, but where are the space 270 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:55,520 Speaker 2: tugs that are moving us in between orbits and doing 271 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: a bunch of kind of finer tune delivery that's in 272 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: the space industry what we call ot orbital transit vehicles. 273 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: Someone is going to make a shit ton of money. 274 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: Doing otvs and we all know that, and sometimes people 275 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 2: outside of the space industry wouldn't know that. So that's 276 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 2: a great example of I think unusual information like useful 277 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: knowledge from being so intimately integrated into the space industry 278 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,880 Speaker 2: that helps advise our strategy as VC investors. 279 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: When did this love affair with space looking for you? 280 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: When I was a kid, I was growing up with 281 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: two Air Force pilot parents. So my dad was an 282 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 2: ATEN Fighter pilot. My mom is one of the first 283 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: women to get to fly in the United States Air 284 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:39,320 Speaker 2: Force as a female pilot, and they raised my brother 285 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 2: and I to love science fiction. So they have this 286 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 2: service model of leadership in their mind from having served 287 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,240 Speaker 2: the country. They love exploration and aviation, and then they 288 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,360 Speaker 2: had us read all of the things that would be 289 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: the next chapter after that. 290 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 3: So the joke is, how do you surpass double pilot? Parents? 291 00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 3: You got to go to space. That's the only thing left. 292 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: No pressure. Yes, were there a particular science fiction book 293 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: or movie author, short story that really gets the heart 294 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:08,560 Speaker 1: of who you are today as a builder? 295 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 3: Yes, there are two related. 296 00:15:12,880 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 2: One is Ringworld, an oldie but goody Larry Niven, really 297 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 2: stunning grand space architecture idea. How do you build a 298 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: ring world, something that is a ring at the scale 299 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 2: of a planet. This is now something that is coming 300 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: into the window of feasibility because it's not really an 301 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:35,239 Speaker 2: open science question anymore. It's a question of engineering, willpower, 302 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:38,760 Speaker 2: and funding, and the space industry is starting to converge 303 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 2: around and in space economy that can make things like 304 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 2: this feasible in the next few decades. That's something that 305 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 2: I just continued to inspire me profoundly. And then the 306 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: other one is much more modern, is Neil Stevenson's Seven Eves. 307 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,160 Speaker 2: And one of the things I loved in that book 308 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 2: is that he envisions swarms of little bio inspired robots 309 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,360 Speaker 2: that have various critical functionalities for the space mission. So 310 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 2: we built a swarm robot that we call astra Ant, 311 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,440 Speaker 2: an adorbal little car the size of my thumb, and 312 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: we sent it to the Moon last spring on my 313 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: team to do that. So it has sensors all over 314 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 2: the car so it can pick up temperature, can do 315 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: a camera payload, and do imaging on the Moon for 316 00:16:21,040 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 2: future iterations. The first one that we sent was very simple, 317 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 2: but we're super excited now that we've developed the astra 318 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 2: Ant and we know it made it safely to the Moon. 319 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: Now we want to do a swarm deployment of these 320 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 2: little robots for inspection, diagnostic, and servicing. 321 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:38,440 Speaker 1: Read out Brigotti, who writes the seventh full newsletter about technology, 322 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: which I very much enjoy as do. I said something 323 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: about the SpaceX XAI combo basically like, yes, it's about 324 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: driving down costs to get rockets into space, Yes, but 325 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: it's also very much about robots. And you can't understand 326 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: this story without understanding robots. 327 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 3: Yes, that's so true. 328 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: Because I focus my life's work around space architecture. I 329 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: really do deeply believe why humans need to go, but 330 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: that's not to say that they're not, you know, profoundly 331 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 2: supported by robots. 332 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,359 Speaker 1: Why is it important for humans to go to space? 333 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:11,959 Speaker 3: So I have kind of a three part answer to this. 334 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: The first is just tactical, which is, we learn so 335 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 2: much by going into space as humans that helps us 336 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:23,360 Speaker 2: do spin off technologies for life on Earth. So there's 337 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,600 Speaker 2: a huge history of NASA, you know, Kevlar microwaves, some 338 00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,640 Speaker 2: people say even lays a guy's surgery in some part 339 00:17:28,680 --> 00:17:29,680 Speaker 2: from the Shuttle program. 340 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,160 Speaker 3: So that's very tactical. The second is more strategic. 341 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:37,359 Speaker 1: So the first is a playback you learned something along 342 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: the way. 343 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:39,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, you learned something along the way that you wouldn't 344 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 2: have learned if you didn't send a human, right. The 345 00:17:41,440 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 2: second is strategic, which is, we need to go to space, 346 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: and we can absolutely use probes and you know, Mars 347 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 2: rovers and Venus flybys and things to do this. But 348 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,080 Speaker 2: there's a the more that we learn about especially the 349 00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 2: near neighborhood of our solar system, the more we understand 350 00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: about Earth's longevity and how to plan for planetary health 351 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,719 Speaker 2: as a system. So a great example of this is 352 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 2: when Apollo eight. In nineteen I think it was nineteen 353 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,479 Speaker 2: sixty eight, on Christmas Eve, flew around the Moon for 354 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,120 Speaker 2: the first time, took a photo of the Earth rising 355 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 2: above the Moon. Earth rise, the opposite of moon rise 356 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 2: that we see on the Earth, and that image, called 357 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,360 Speaker 2: earth Rise, launched the environmental movement in the United States. 358 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,880 Speaker 2: So that's an example of space exploration when humans are 359 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 2: involved expanding our concentric circles of awareness as a species, 360 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: and why it's kind of so important for us as 361 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 2: a civilization to push out with human life in addition 362 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 2: to to robots. I don't think we'd be very satisfied 363 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,439 Speaker 2: as a species just doing teleoperation and VR headset viewing 364 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: of some robots life on Mars. Right, we are a 365 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:51,919 Speaker 2: species that loves knowledge. For the sake of knowledge, we 366 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 2: need to go. 367 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: That was in ninety sixty eight you mentioned, Yes, is 368 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: it called the overview effect? 369 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 2: Is that we now have so the image was called 370 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 2: earth rise. But exactly what you're hitting on this notion 371 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 2: of seeing the Earth from space is that is known 372 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 2: as the overview effect, and it famously leads trained military 373 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: men to cry when you're in the vacuum, void darkness 374 00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 2: of space and you look down from your precarious position 375 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 2: onto this really delicate, beautiful blue marble of a planet 376 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:24,119 Speaker 2: and saying, you know, holy cow, this is really something 377 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: worthy of protecting. 378 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 3: And I think we. 379 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 2: Can use space exploration both in the science fiction notion 380 00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 2: of let's go figure out how to live elsewhere, but 381 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 2: we can also use space exporation in the concept of 382 00:19:35,119 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: what we're doing at Aurelia Institute, which is space for 383 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 2: the public good. Do space infrastructure in lower th orbit, 384 00:19:42,280 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 2: like AI Data Centers, space based solar power, my current 385 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 2: you know, kind of flagship project, which is our orbital biolab. 386 00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: Do therapeutics and bioscience that you can only do when 387 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 2: you're floating that you can't do on the ground. Do 388 00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: that kind of stuff in space for the good of 389 00:19:57,880 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: life on Earth. 390 00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: The third well, that was a third one. 391 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 3: That's the third pie. Yeah, his orbital biolabs. 392 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, things like AI Data Centers, space based solar power 393 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: and an orbital biolab. And that I think is what 394 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:10,320 Speaker 2: I try to reflect in my own work, which is 395 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,439 Speaker 2: think of it as really hard science science fiction, so 396 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: we are grounded, and a bunch of pragmatic near term things. 397 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 2: I'm investing in a bunch of near term companies that 398 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: I've done my best to honestly, credibly convince my LPs 399 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,920 Speaker 2: will give returns for an ROI focused venture fund in 400 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 2: the next seven years. But also what do we aimed at? 401 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:34,920 Speaker 2: And I sometimes think that tech investing needs a little 402 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 2: bit more of a moral grounding or a grand aspirational grounding. 403 00:20:39,240 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 3: What do you aimed at? 404 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:42,919 Speaker 2: What's the big picture why of why you're putting all 405 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: this money into stuff? And for me, that is where 406 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 2: the you know, dreamier large scale vision comes to. Which 407 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 2: is the benefit of humanity, expanding humanity's horizons and making 408 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:54,400 Speaker 2: us a space faring species. 409 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: After the break, the environmental costs of commercial space and 410 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:09,920 Speaker 1: how a space pac man might help stay with us. 411 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: When you're traveling abroad, Wi Fi is always an issue. 412 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 1: Maybe you can't find it, or maybe you can, but 413 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: the Wi Fi network that's available looks a little bit 414 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: sketchy and makes you think it might not be safe 415 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: to connect to. 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All you have to do is download 424 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,439 Speaker 1: the Sale app on your mobile device and choose the 425 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: plan that works best for you. Once you install the 426 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: e sim Sale will be instantly activated, so you can 427 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 1: start your trip off right. Download Saley in your app 428 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 1: store and use our code tech Stuff at checkout to 429 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 1: get an exclusive fifteen percent off your first purchase. See 430 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 1: details in the podcast episode description box. How do you 431 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,840 Speaker 1: think about the cost? I mean, Elon has talked about 432 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,639 Speaker 1: ten thousand launches a year, which I think will be 433 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: one an hour, and that's a lot of a lot 434 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,680 Speaker 1: of gas and a lot of space. Do all those 435 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 1: ones come back at least? 436 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah? 437 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: Debrisah, debris. How do you think about the environmental cost 438 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:30,359 Speaker 1: of these dreams? 439 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,680 Speaker 2: This? I think is a critically important topic to try 440 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 2: to figure out now. So currently the space industry does 441 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 2: not have anywhere near the carbon footprint of say aviation, 442 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 2: But if we succeed in getting to that ten thousand number, 443 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 2: we absolutely would and maybe have even a more vast impact. 444 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 2: So there are really important, interesting endeavors to get out 445 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 2: of this paradigm of chemical rocket propulsion as the only 446 00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 2: way to get master to orbit. And I do think 447 00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 2: that that's really important. Is we need to do that 448 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:03,359 Speaker 2: search now so that we have a better base on 449 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 2: which to stand for this growth that's coming in the industry. 450 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: But I do think people who are saying, you know 451 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 2: right now, oh oh dear, what is the space industry doing, 452 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 2: Our carbon footprint is quite small compared to aviation, so 453 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 2: we have that responsibility to take it seriously and innovate 454 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 2: it around it now. 455 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: And does a debris pose a medium time risk? 456 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,080 Speaker 2: I mean yes, so you're talking about the debris in orbit? Yeah, 457 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,959 Speaker 2: space problem, It certainly is. The diagrams that people may 458 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 2: have seen on the news are a little bit misleading 459 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:34,399 Speaker 2: because space is so vast. When you make adot the 460 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,439 Speaker 2: size of a period on a picture to try to 461 00:23:36,440 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 2: indicate where the debris is in orbit, you are marking 462 00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: out so much space that it's not like the It's 463 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 2: not as crowded or as fuzzy as it looks on 464 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 2: these images that people see online that are depicting the 465 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 2: space debris. 466 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:50,440 Speaker 3: But it is serious. 467 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 2: Enough that sometimes the International Space Station has had to 468 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 2: boost itself to avoid space debris or launch timing is changed. 469 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,400 Speaker 2: Because we're tracking the debris, we have a pretty good 470 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 2: sense of where it is. 471 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:01,679 Speaker 3: But yeah, it's serious. 472 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: We sometimes see missions that have to plan around it, 473 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 2: and I think one of the best things that we 474 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 2: could do is active remediation, so ISSA is really motivated. 475 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,200 Speaker 2: The European Space Agency has some great programs around debris removal, 476 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: companies like Astroscale or planning interesting capability. One of my 477 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: favorite ideas is to basically have a space pac Man 478 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 2: that goes around and metaphorically eats, but really just collects 479 00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: a big ball of debris until there's enough mass in 480 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:34,239 Speaker 2: that aggregate that it starts to be dragged down in 481 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:36,159 Speaker 2: orbit a little bit lower in altitude, and then it 482 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 2: hits the atmosphere, hits drag and then burns up on reentry. 483 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,679 Speaker 2: So it's like a trash collector for space. 484 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 3: Little pac Man. 485 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,920 Speaker 2: So, and not to end on a lighthearted note for 486 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:47,040 Speaker 2: a very serious problem, but yes, I do think that 487 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 2: space debris is something to contend with, and there are 488 00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 2: a lot of interesting endeavors that are looking at that 489 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 2: right now to remediate I. 490 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: Want to understand a little bit more about your vision 491 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: for space habitats. And one of the things I was 492 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: very intrigued by is that you asked a lot of 493 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: astronauts what their experience of space was like and how 494 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 1: it could be better. Yes, what did you learn from 495 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 1: those conversations? 496 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 2: So this is credit to my amazing co founder, Sana Sharma, 497 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 2: who was a friend of mine in undergrad at Yale 498 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 2: and then is an amazing designer. She has run this 499 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 2: astronaut ethnography program. Yeah, through mid What an incredible privilege 500 00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:23,679 Speaker 2: we know, we have to be an MIT and get 501 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 2: the chance to talk to so many astronauts, and she 502 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: interviewed astronauts from around the world, so not just NASA astronauts, 503 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 2: but you know, from different nationalities, from private spaceflight participants 504 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 2: who are not government agency trained astronauts, which as individuals 505 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: who went and she asked them questions that they either 506 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 2: don't get asked by NASA when they're debriefed, or they 507 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 2: get asked by NASA but are never made public, which 508 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: are things like what is the most uncomfortable part of 509 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: living in space? What was the most disgusting experience that 510 00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,399 Speaker 2: you had, what was the most profound, beautiful heart you know, 511 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 2: expand experience that you had. And in particular, she focused 512 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 2: in on comfort and care, which is something that is 513 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:10,640 Speaker 2: not a combination often considered in today's space habitats because 514 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 2: they're mostly occupied by unbelievably qualified, diligent, disciplined individuals top 515 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 2: you know, points servisors or a one percent of human talent. 516 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: If we're going to start welcoming more people into the 517 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 2: space industry, into our Aurelia Tessaray space habitats, we have 518 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: to design the interiors so that they're delightful and that 519 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: they don't just look like a science lab. One of 520 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,720 Speaker 2: Sana's favorite quotes from her program is that an astronaut said, 521 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: life in space on the International Space Station is like 522 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:43,159 Speaker 2: sleeping under your desk in the lab. You know, like 523 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,719 Speaker 2: that's and it's amazing. Many people would give up their 524 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 2: whole career to get to go do that. But it 525 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: doesn't work for everybody, and we want space to work 526 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 2: for everybody as much as we can. Right, people often ask, oh, 527 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 2: what if you have health issues, can you still go 528 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:57,840 Speaker 2: to space? Actually, many more health issues than you might 529 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 2: think you can absolutely still go to space. We just 530 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 2: wouldn't put you in a position where you're going to 531 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 2: be there for six months or a year. And Sana's work, 532 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 2: I think has really profoundly inspired and informed how we 533 00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 2: think about interior design, architecture, and comfort and care in 534 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 2: those next generation habitats that we're building. 535 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,720 Speaker 1: It's really interesting because there was a New York Times 536 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: magazine story last year that I was fascinated by about 537 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 1: this fake Moon surface or no Mars surface called Mars Asterisk, 538 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 1: and basically they recruited all these people to go and 539 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: live on Mars in an analog in an analog for 540 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 1: like five hundred days, and the article was basically about 541 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:40,920 Speaker 1: how the experiment was essentially designed to psychologically torture the 542 00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:43,000 Speaker 1: people and see how much they could withstand it. There 543 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: was no like, there's nothing beyond that really inherent in 544 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:48,920 Speaker 1: the expedition, and I found it quite kind of depressing 545 00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 1: on a slee to read. So it'sic. It's actually nice 546 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,000 Speaker 1: to hear an alternative vision that space could be fun 547 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: than whimsical and comfortable. 548 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 3: And comfortable and empowering. 549 00:27:58,520 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, when you go again, we're standing on the shoulders 550 00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 2: of giants here because we have to make it safe 551 00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 2: first and foremost. 552 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 3: That unlocks the ability. 553 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 2: To then think about what if you didn't just have 554 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 2: to survive in space, but you could thrive in space. 555 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,119 Speaker 2: And we've built a nearly thirty foot mockup of our 556 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: Tessa Ray space habitat. We've exhibited it around a ted 557 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,160 Speaker 2: at Seattle Museum of Flight. When you walk into it, 558 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: we have things like a zero gravity kitchen. What does 559 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 2: it mean to do fermentation like sour dough or kimchi 560 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 2: bubbling in space? We have an algae stained glass window. 561 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 2: The algae is inside of these panels where it gets 562 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 2: some light from the outside, so you can actually grow 563 00:28:38,800 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 2: the algae like cyanobacteria, and then have the algae, in 564 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,040 Speaker 2: partnership with the bacteria, produce something useful for the habitat, 565 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: like oxygen, and that would supplement the life support system. 566 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 2: So it's both pragmatic and functional, but also hopefully beautiful 567 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 2: and stunning. 568 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: So take me from where we are today to people 569 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: being inside these environments in space, or maybe take you 570 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: back from people being in the environers in space to 571 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 1: where we are today, because here are some of the 572 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: problems that come to mind or I guess scale is 573 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: one thing. I guess, the reliability of the parts connecting 574 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: successfully is one thing. I guess, the maintenance is another ye. 575 00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: And the challenge of getting people to and from that's 576 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: already been solved. Essentially, it's the same docking technology if 577 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: used on. 578 00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: The as precise well actually some combination of ISS and SpaceX, 579 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 2: So we will try to be as agnostic as possible. 580 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:36,800 Speaker 2: We are going to have to pick a standard, but 581 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 2: exactly to your point, we are lucky in that we're 582 00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: not having to be the rocket transportation. We're going to 583 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 2: you know, leverage the SpaceX delivery or other companies that 584 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 2: will be able to come and dock. And I do 585 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,880 Speaker 2: think for that five year timeframe that I gave you 586 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 2: five to seven years for an orbital biolab, most likely 587 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,360 Speaker 2: that will be us self assembling this module and attaching 588 00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,239 Speaker 2: it to one of the commercial space stations that are 589 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 2: getting built that not very many people know about. More 590 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 2: people should know about these that will be the replacement 591 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 2: to the International Space Station. So the ISS has been 592 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: up since the I think it was like maybe completed 593 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 2: the design in nineteen ninety eight, flew in early two 594 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,720 Speaker 2: thousand so over twenty years, it's old. 595 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 3: It's like any home. It really desperately needs a reno. 596 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: And what NASA has decided is that we're going to 597 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:27,600 Speaker 2: decommission the International Space Station. NASA has been incentivizing a 598 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 2: range of for profit companies to build their own commercial 599 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,000 Speaker 2: space stations in orbit. They will be basically the follow 600 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 2: on to the ISS, and then we would like to 601 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 2: assemble and then attach our tests array self assembling module 602 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 2: if it's an orbal to biolab, attach it to one 603 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: of these providers like Axiom or VAST or Voyager star Lab, 604 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 2: who are going to be these next future commercial space stations. 605 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: Do you have absolute confidence that you will go to 606 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: space in one of your tessaray assembled domes. 607 00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 2: I better, Yes, I think I certainly have the courage 608 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 2: and the desire to go. I think there's nothing worse 609 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 2: than an architect that doesn't live and inhabit their own space. 610 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 2: So yes, I do think I'm bullish on the fact 611 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 2: that in my lifetime I will get a chance to 612 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,640 Speaker 2: build one of these designs to human occupancy rating and 613 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 2: hopefully go myself. 614 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 1: Yes, just before we close, and I know this idea 615 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: of democratizing space is something which is motivating for you. 616 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 3: Yes. 617 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: On the other hand, many people feel like space is 618 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: becoming more of a colonial environment than a democratic environment, 619 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, obviously US China space conflict, or 620 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,400 Speaker 1: you know Elon and Jeff Bezos, who are seen by 621 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: many as oligarchs who are trying to do a land 622 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: grab in space. And so those are people who you 623 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,480 Speaker 1: work with, either directly or indirectly, whose platform technology is 624 00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: enabled what you're doing, but his goals may not be 625 00:31:58,600 --> 00:31:59,320 Speaker 1: the same as yours. 626 00:32:00,280 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 2: Such just sing point, I would say, I'm actually really 627 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 2: grateful to SpaceX and Blue Origin for what they're doing. 628 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:08,240 Speaker 2: I don't view it so much as oligarchs as I 629 00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 2: view it as it's like the beginning of commercial air 630 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 2: travel in the nineteen forties and fifties, where initially it 631 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 2: was a very expensive only military activity. Then it became 632 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:24,040 Speaker 2: a commercial activity, but it was a luxury activity, and 633 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:26,400 Speaker 2: then over time the costs dropped and it became this 634 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 2: incredibly empowering opportunity where you and I, as not particularly 635 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: crazy fancy people, get to hop on a plane and 636 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 2: goal around the world. That is the progression that Elon 637 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: and really to give credit to gwenn Shot well as 638 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 2: well at SpaceX and Blue Origin and Bezos and many 639 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 2: other companies. 640 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:44,960 Speaker 3: That's what they're trying to achieve. 641 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: And I think the media has hit on this notion 642 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 2: of oh, it's just the high net worth individuals going 643 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 2: to space, because they cover Richard Branson going and Bezos going. 644 00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 2: But these gentlemen and their companies, if their companies are 645 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 2: going to succeed, they have to scale to democratize access 646 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 2: to space. That's where the customers really come from. So 647 00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: I think in the long term their incentives are aligned 648 00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 2: with one of my goals, which is how do we 649 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 2: democratize access to space? For my other mission elements in 650 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 2: the nonprofit where we want to think about are we 651 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 2: being good stewards of the space commons, How can we 652 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: make sure that we don't contribute to space debris? How 653 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,800 Speaker 2: can we be a little thoughtful about precedent setting on 654 00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:27,959 Speaker 2: the Moon, maybe avoiding strict ownership and competition and potential 655 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 2: geopolitical conflict. I think that there is a role for 656 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 2: a nonprofit like us to do interesting thought leadership, to 657 00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 2: try to shape the future of space, to be principled 658 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 2: and inclusive and exciting, so that more people like my dad. 659 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 2: My dad was born in the fifties. He when he 660 00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 2: was a kid, saw the moon landing and was convinced 661 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:50,560 Speaker 2: than in his lifetime he would get to go. We 662 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 2: had this interregnum where because we lost funding with the 663 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:56,400 Speaker 2: Cold War, we stopped investing in space as heavily. This time, 664 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 2: I think will be profoundly different because we have an 665 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 2: economy that's fueled by these companies that you mentioned, making 666 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: it possible for truly, like if there are people listening 667 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 2: to this podcast that have kids, for your kids to 668 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 2: commute to space for work in the next ten years. 669 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: Just to press you, there is also a darker potentiality, right, 670 00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: And going back to our friend read Albergotti, he wrote 671 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: in that news letter, the nineteen sixty seven Out of 672 00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:25,839 Speaker 1: Space Treaty makes space subject international law, but a more 673 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: recent US law allows companies to keep what they mind. 674 00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 3: Out there ar domiss records. 675 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 1: Yep, it will eventually. It will mean a borderless internet 676 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: and an industrial supply chain that is beyond the reach 677 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,440 Speaker 1: or control of any country. Science fiction has plenty of 678 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: warnings for what these companies might look like. 679 00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 3: Yes, that's true. 680 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 2: One of the things we're we've thought about in the 681 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 2: context of policy for the Moon, for example, is how 682 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 2: do we avoid a mill town and the exploitativeness of 683 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:53,359 Speaker 2: a mill town. So if you remember mill town's where 684 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 2: the company store basically owns all of their employees and 685 00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 2: they're exploitative, it's hard for them to leave. Can imagine 686 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: some company operating on the Moon decides that they own 687 00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: your air because they transported you there as an employee, 688 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,640 Speaker 2: and you can't just walk outside and go home. You'd 689 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:11,480 Speaker 2: have to be dependent on them to get back to Earth. 690 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,480 Speaker 2: There's all these different potentials that the Summer four article 691 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,200 Speaker 2: and comment hits on, and I think one of the 692 00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: jobs of creators of this technology, like us, is to say, 693 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 2: let's work on some combination of technological solutions that mitigate 694 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,760 Speaker 2: some of the risks like space debris or green propulsion 695 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 2: for the carbon footprint. Let's also work on policy frameworks 696 00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 2: and regulatory frameworks that seed in some of the values 697 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 2: that we care about in an open and free society. 698 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 2: We don't have to give up and say, oh man, 699 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 2: it's just going to be a gold rush, and we're 700 00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,400 Speaker 2: going to let the Moon be chopped up and be 701 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,880 Speaker 2: treated in a way that seeds these dystopian futures. It 702 00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 2: really is a moment to say, this is our responsibility, 703 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,240 Speaker 2: this is the time let's do some you know, regulatory 704 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,640 Speaker 2: and policy work to try to put a better future 705 00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 2: in place. And I think that that is something we 706 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 2: certainly work on at Aurelia Institute. There are amazing groups 707 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 2: like Open Lunar Foundation that are also looking at this. 708 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,000 Speaker 2: We're certainly not alone in it, but it is I 709 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 2: think worthy of you pressing me on because now is 710 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 2: the time to figure that out in a principled fashion 711 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 2: and not wait to see how it plays out and 712 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:19,959 Speaker 2: then try to fix it later. 713 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 1: Ery, I can't think of a better place to and 714 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: thank you. 715 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:24,840 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It is a pleasure. 716 00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: That's if it techs Stuff this week, I'm OsO Loosian. 717 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Elisa Dennis and Melissa Slaughter. 718 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,480 Speaker 1: It was executive produced by me Karen Price, Julian Nutta, 719 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:49,239 Speaker 1: and Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katrina novelve iHeart Podcasts. 720 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: The engineer is Kathleen Conti and Jack Insley makes this episode. 721 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 1: Kyle Murdoch wrote our theme song. Please do rate, review 722 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,279 Speaker 1: and reach out to us at tech Stuff Pod Cars 723 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: at gmail dot com. Mm hmm