1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,560 Speaker 1: Welcome back, work in progress. 2 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:02,000 Speaker 2: Friends. 3 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: We are here for part two of this incredible interview 4 00:00:04,920 --> 00:00:19,279 Speaker 1: with Monica Lewinsky. Can I offer you something? And look, 5 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: I might be wrong here, maybe I'm projecting my own experience. 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: I think when you're really in something and you're the 7 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: uniqueness of having a human life on a public stage 8 00:00:33,520 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: cannot be overstated, and people want to roll their eyes 9 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: and go, oh, poor you. Nobody gets how hard this 10 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,440 Speaker 1: is until they go through it. And I would wager 11 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: that just like where you work becomes relative, going to 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: the Pentagon becomes normal, going to the White House becomes normal, 13 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,040 Speaker 1: there is a thing that happens when you are plucked 14 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: out of your life and put in a new environment, 15 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: very similarly to my own early twenties experience. You move 16 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,640 Speaker 1: away from all your friends and family, You go to 17 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: work on a TV show. You're working fifteen, sixteen, seventeen 18 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,039 Speaker 1: hours a day with these people, just like you all 19 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: were at the White House. You don't really know anyone. 20 00:01:13,040 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: Your relative experience shifts. Would you have confided in Linda 21 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:18,959 Speaker 1: Tripp if your three best friends were. 22 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:19,680 Speaker 2: In DC with you? No? 23 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: But in DC, the relative scale of who seemed like 24 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: a friend shifts to who you're picking out of in 25 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,479 Speaker 1: the pool of people around, you know. I talk about 26 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 1: this with my partner and her experiences very similarly being 27 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: put on a team, and then your team is your 28 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: option for me, my cast, those are my people. For 29 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:45,679 Speaker 1: you who you're working with there, those become your people. 30 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: You're so far away from your actual life, but you 31 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: have to invest in where you are. And so I 32 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: get why you would meet a friend. 33 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 2: It's interesting because I did also confide in all my 34 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 2: closest friends just was you know, it just was different. 35 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 2: It was different because they, you know, they weren't. I'm 36 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: trying to remember I had a best friend in DC 37 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 2: Ashley that I'm still close to, and I'm trying to 38 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: remember when I told her. I can't remember, so but 39 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 2: I think that there was it. Really, I'll say it 40 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: a different way. I think that had I not been 41 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 2: sent off to the Pentagon, which was a world I 42 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: mean I joke about being like Private Benjamin, I really 43 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: was Private Benjamin. I mean I went to Banana Republic 44 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:40,119 Speaker 2: to go shopping, to go on my first trip to Bosnia, 45 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 2: Like what do I wear to meet the troops? I mean, 46 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:46,080 Speaker 2: like I just was. I was a fish out of 47 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: water there, sure, you know, real fish out of water 48 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 2: and you know, and I had some incredible experiences as 49 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 2: a young person too, and even my boss, so I 50 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: worked for the Pentagon spokesman Ken Bacon, and I became 51 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: friendly with his wife while I was working there, and 52 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,960 Speaker 2: I'm still friends with her to today. So I see 53 00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 2: her whenever I'm in DC, and she's an amazing woman, 54 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 2: and I think that there's but I just I didn't 55 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 2: belong there, you know, I just really didn't. I didn't. 56 00:03:20,120 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: And in fact, I was just talking about this thing. 57 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: I think I had Laura Brown and Christina o'neillon to 58 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 2: talk about their book, their book, and I was saying 59 00:03:30,520 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: about how when I got fired from the White House 60 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 2: that or transferred that my supervisor said to me, well, 61 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 2: it's a much sexier job at the Pendent. I'm like, 62 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 2: can you imagine someone saying that in today's world? 63 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, so cooler, perhaps, right, more impressive, but yeah, even 64 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: the idea that people would speak to a young woman 65 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,360 Speaker 1: that way and say this is sexier. 66 00:03:56,840 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 3: For you, yeah, gross, gross, you know it. 67 00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,600 Speaker 1: I hear you doing a thing that I understand, and 68 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: I want to clarify a few things. I deeply respect 69 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 1: how much responsibility you've taken. I hear you saying, you know, 70 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 1: I was a young woman. I was twenty two, then 71 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: I was twenty four. I also in looking Back, you know, 72 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: my earlier reference, my reclamation show, I look at the 73 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:27,039 Speaker 1: girl I was. 74 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:28,719 Speaker 2: I was a girl. 75 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 1: You know at twenty one and twenty two and twenty three, 76 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 1: we were still kids. Yes, we were young adults. But 77 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: there is this odd obsession with when you know enough. 78 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: And I think about the fact that your brain isn't 79 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 1: even done developing exactly. You can't even rent a car 80 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:52,159 Speaker 1: by yourself exactly. So you know, it drives me crazy 81 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: that someone as you reference, like in Megan Kelly, could 82 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,200 Speaker 1: be excusing what we are seeing in all of these 83 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 1: Epstein documents being released and say, well, fifteen's not really 84 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: that young, it's not really that uncommon. 85 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: You know. 86 00:05:05,720 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 1: My question I wish I could ask her is okay, 87 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: So whose daughter do you think deserves to be raped 88 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: at fifteen? Megan? Yours are someone else's right, You know, 89 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: these are insane conversations we are having about children. And 90 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: I do understand, reflecting on my own life and hearing 91 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: you reflect on yours, that you're really in this kind 92 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: of in between phase in your early twenties, and it 93 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: strikes me there are things you bring up and I 94 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: watch your face, and I see you kind of looking 95 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: back at that hopeful young woman, and I don't think 96 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:45,280 Speaker 1: it's a naivete I see almost a like youthful romanticism 97 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:49,600 Speaker 1: when you reflect on it, a sort of idealistic young 98 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: woman who is succeeding and excited. Do you have expectations 99 00:05:55,760 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 1: about how things might turn out at the time before it? 100 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, I also think too, Just to just to 101 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:08,599 Speaker 2: kind of round out what you're saying, I think what 102 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: we don't We have more examples of this now, but 103 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 2: I don't think at the time. I don't think in 104 00:06:14,560 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 2: the nineties and the early aughts, we had examples of 105 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,679 Speaker 2: young women who are both they are both very mature. 106 00:06:23,800 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 2: Like you were saying, I was the same talking to adults. 107 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 2: I could, you know, got along with anybody's parents. I 108 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 2: had great manners, I knew how to have a conversation. 109 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 2: So there are these ways that we are far more 110 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,359 Speaker 2: sophisticated than our peers, and then there are other parts 111 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: of us that are far more immature, far more naive, 112 00:06:47,760 --> 00:06:52,280 Speaker 2: far more you know, romantic or whatever that is, and 113 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 2: we don't. We didn't at the time, and you know 114 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:01,120 Speaker 2: it's the both, the both of those and right, and 115 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 2: that's that young you know. I remember this guy I 116 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: knew who worked in this local supermarket and he said 117 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:12,280 Speaker 2: to me, he was like, you know, when you turn 118 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 2: twenty one, you think you're such a grown up, you 119 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 2: think you're such an adult, and a few years later 120 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 2: you're going to realize how little you knew. Yep. And 121 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,480 Speaker 2: it was one hundred percent true. So when I was 122 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 2: in my internship, I was, you know, studying. My plan 123 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 2: was to go to graduate school the next year, was 124 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 2: to make sure my scores were where they needed to 125 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 2: be to get into a PhD program. So this was like, 126 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: as I joked, a little pit stop on my resume, 127 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, it just crushes me for you. 128 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 2: I know, were Little Monica and her beret, so you know, 129 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 2: but and I was still I think something that opened 130 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 2: up for me while I was at the White House 131 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,160 Speaker 2: was I became interested in communication, so that became a 132 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 2: little more interesting to me. But I still was planning 133 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 2: PhD forensic psychology, going back to school for that and 134 00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 2: then whatever my career was going to go in that path, 135 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 2: but then I was there was this opening and Legislative Affairs. 136 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,960 Speaker 2: When I interviewed for it, my boss or the person 137 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 2: who interviewed me, who has done the same one who 138 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: transferred me with the sexy comment, said we can only 139 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: give you the job if you commit to stay through 140 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,760 Speaker 2: the election, because we can't have people leaving to go. 141 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: Everybody wants to go work on the campaign because it's exciting. 142 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 2: And so I decided to give that commitment, and so 143 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 2: had planned to sort of, I did to apply to 144 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 2: graduate school for that year. 145 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: Right, you thought, oh, yeah, I can do essentially a 146 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:48,679 Speaker 1: gap year and be at the White House. 147 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly. So I think in the same way 148 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:55,720 Speaker 2: that I have a friend who also doesn't have children, 149 00:08:55,800 --> 00:09:00,440 Speaker 2: who had also wanted kids, and she'll say sometimes she 150 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 2: has to remind herself that in her mind her child 151 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,079 Speaker 2: would have been a perfect child, you know, And so 152 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 2: that when you're living in the fantasy of what you 153 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:12,839 Speaker 2: didn't have or the you know, wish you'd had, that 154 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 2: that's often the most perfected state of it and very unrealistic. 155 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 2: So what my life might have looked like, you know, 156 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: had this not all happened is one version of a fantasy. 157 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: My best friend from college always jokes with me, She's like, 158 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: it always would have been hard for you to find 159 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 2: a husband, even ninety eight hadn't happened. 160 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: You know, No, I you know, I think that's part 161 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:36,840 Speaker 1: of it too. You know you said something earlier about 162 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: the the kind of magic of feeling chosen in your 163 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:45,559 Speaker 1: young life, and I think I understand that deeply because 164 00:09:46,600 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: I've had to come to terms with in my adulthood 165 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,480 Speaker 1: that not until I turned forty did I realize, Oh, 166 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: I don't know that I've ever really chosen for myself. 167 00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:57,800 Speaker 1: I think the most I've ever done is been presented 168 00:09:57,880 --> 00:10:01,440 Speaker 1: with options, which is, these are the people who will 169 00:10:01,520 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: choose you. Out of these, what do you choose? R 170 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: Like that was the most profound, like, oh, look at 171 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: me making some choices and adulting construction of messaging, expectation, normativities, 172 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 1: including heteronormativity for me to go what do I choose? 173 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,360 Speaker 1: And that was compounded in a really interesting way with 174 00:10:26,400 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: the difficulty of again going through a very long private 175 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:35,000 Speaker 1: process that then when it became public, the public perception 176 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: was different. And I think part of what really drove 177 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: me crazy is because in my twenties when I had 178 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: an experience on a public stage with infidelity with a junior. 179 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: For some reason, it became my cross to bear and 180 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: not the person. And by the way, I'm even nervous 181 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: to say that because for some reason, even reflecting on it, 182 00:10:56,760 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 1: I get judged instead of being like, no, I actually 183 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: have quite a mature understanding what that was, and I 184 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: don't care anymore. 185 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:04,120 Speaker 2: It's been over twenty years, Like, get over it. 186 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 1: But it was a weird way to in a way 187 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,559 Speaker 1: be confronted with an untrue accusation because it was juicy 188 00:11:13,600 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: for the press, and then to have press confirmed they 189 00:11:16,920 --> 00:11:19,319 Speaker 1: knew it wasn't true, but say sorry, we got to 190 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: run the story for the clicks. It was so infuriating 191 00:11:23,679 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: to me and I went, oh, the misogyny is still 192 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: so alive. And I think part of the reason they 193 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:31,840 Speaker 1: love it is because they can be so much more 194 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: misogynistic with women than they can be now with women 195 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,680 Speaker 1: who go through things with men like this is the 196 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 1: frontier that feels like two thousand and three for the media. Wow, 197 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:45,960 Speaker 1: and they know it's wrong and they don't care. 198 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 2: Wow. 199 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: It was this sort of mind blowing thing, And I 200 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: think about it in some of the conversations I get 201 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: to have with you, because I go, yeah, that's part 202 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 1: of it, right. People will know it's wrong, but you 203 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 1: give them so much currency that they don't care care. 204 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 205 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:06,959 Speaker 1: And I'm fascinated by this, you know, in my arc 206 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: something twenty years ago and something more recently to your arc, 207 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:17,319 Speaker 1: because you were basically patient zero of modern online shaming, 208 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: and now we're having these very kind of elevated conversations 209 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,280 Speaker 1: as a society, supposedly right in our play of age 210 00:12:27,360 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: and power and consent. Yeah, and it's a lot to 211 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 1: grasp the size of misogyny, the size of the media 212 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: profit industry. 213 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that women are not immune to misogyny either. Yes. 214 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 2: As philis Chesler wrote, I'm so. 215 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,880 Speaker 1: Curious for you the ways you've reflected on that with us, Like. 216 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 2: It's I struggle, you know, it's it's something you know, 217 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 2: I think, I am. I don't know if you're this way, 218 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 2: but I feel like a thought, an idea, a ship 219 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 2: kind of comes in and I know it's like it's 220 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,839 Speaker 2: put in a dish and is marinating, like it's a 221 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,320 Speaker 2: bricketting inside and everything happened. I go check on it 222 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 2: and I'm like, huh, have we moved a bit? What's 223 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: going on over here? You know? And and so I 224 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:24,480 Speaker 2: have I had this experience around watching John Proctor as 225 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 2: the villain. I mean that play, Oh my god, so good. 226 00:13:29,720 --> 00:13:32,040 Speaker 2: I am so glad it's being turned into a movie 227 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 2: or TV shit whatever, I just because I want everybody 228 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: to experience it. I had this realization that whether it 229 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 2: was the case or I determined because I decided it 230 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 2: was the case, who knows, it doesn't even matter. There 231 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:52,000 Speaker 2: is a level of anger I never allowed myself to 232 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: get into, to talk publicly, and I see it with 233 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 2: I saw it in that play with a younger generation, 234 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 2: and I just thought, wow, Wow, what was that feel like? 235 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: Yes, because God forbid, when you're being shamed, you're supposed 236 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,320 Speaker 1: to take it. And God forbid a woman have so 237 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,080 Speaker 1: much agency that she'd be furious at the way she's 238 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 1: been treated. And that's something I've marinated on a little bit, 239 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: is like, Oh, I've I too, have carried so much 240 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: anger for the mistreatment from the world that and is 241 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 1: that the thing people want to poke at? You know, 242 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 1: over twenty years of always wanting to ask women right, 243 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: never asking anyone. 244 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 2: Else like oh yeah, go like, oh, is maybe. 245 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: The reason you still want to ask the question because 246 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: you've never seen me get angry? And by the way, 247 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: I don't know that you could handle my anger. Well, 248 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: I don't know that you actually want a piece of that. 249 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: I for me, I think, you know, I think I'm 250 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,480 Speaker 2: not even in touch with it. I think it scares me. 251 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 2: It's seeing glimpses of it there. And I I had 252 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: my I had a spec scan done with doctor Amon 253 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 2: not long ago. I want to do that interesting I was. 254 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,160 Speaker 2: I had wanted to do it a million years ago, 255 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: and then when Miley came on and she was talking 256 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 2: about it, I was like, oh, I'm going to do 257 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 2: this now. But one of the things he was talking 258 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,239 Speaker 2: to me about, which I am a hundred thousand, bajillion 259 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,880 Speaker 2: percent going to try, is a sort of rage therapy 260 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: where you really dive into that rage and what does 261 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,600 Speaker 2: it mean to confront that? And so at some point 262 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: I'm I'm curious to do that and interested to do that. 263 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors who make this 264 00:15:49,040 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: show possible. When you think about that, you know that 265 00:16:04,960 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: sort of righteous anger and I'm sure wounded anger and 266 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: all the versions of those feelings that we're not supposed 267 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: to feel, but we know live in us. Do you 268 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: think if at that time social media existed in the 269 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: way it does today, it would have made things worse 270 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 1: or better? Because in one way, I wonder, would you 271 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 1: have been able to be clearer about your own narrative 272 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:36,480 Speaker 1: right or would it just have been even more of 273 00:16:36,520 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 1: the recycled garbage that the Internet feels like today. 274 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 2: I think it would have been both. I think that 275 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: there would have both existed more of an opportunity to 276 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,480 Speaker 2: have a fuller sense of who I was as a person. 277 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 2: But as we all remember, with Justine Socko, who you know, 278 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: made a joke to her small group of friends who 279 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,480 Speaker 2: understood her her level of humor no matter what that meant, 280 00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 2: not something for public consumption, got on a plane, went 281 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,919 Speaker 2: to Africa, and landed with a very different life. You know, 282 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 2: I could very easily see my humor the way I 283 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: am also being taken out of context. But yes, there 284 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: would have been more than just my high school yearbook 285 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 2: collage page to understand me as as Yeah, for twenty 286 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:31,719 Speaker 2: hours of you know, surptitiously recorded phone calls that you 287 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 2: know are gabbing to a friend so these are sort 288 00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 2: of the materials, and then of course the spin you know, 289 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 2: that comes in so and then who is that somebody 290 00:17:42,080 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 2: reminded me even it was like, oh yeah, I wrote 291 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:47,600 Speaker 2: a poem about a pizza when I was in second grade. 292 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:52,080 Speaker 2: Even that surfaced, like, I mean, it's like, god, you 293 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: know that somehow, somehow a poem I wrote about pizza 294 00:17:56,080 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 2: in second grazy kids. It's worth it's worth putting in print, 295 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 2: you know. But so I think that there there would 296 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 2: have been more there. But then there would have been 297 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 2: you know, the beret and the dress and all the 298 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,080 Speaker 2: things would have had their own handles, and there would 299 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:18,119 Speaker 2: have been more you know, memes and jokes and so. 300 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: But I also think because I meet people a lot 301 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 2: who sort of say, you know, I was always on 302 00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:30,880 Speaker 2: your side, and it might have been nice to see 303 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 2: something of that because I could know was any sort 304 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 2: of public support was if someone wrote me a letter, 305 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:44,199 Speaker 2: you know, the old fashioned way. So but it was, 306 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 2: I mean, and the letter the mail I got, I 307 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: would get Monica Lewinsky, Washington, d C. And it would 308 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: arrive to the Watergate, was addressed to the White House, 309 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: came to where I was living. 310 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: It was to Wow. You know, I think about that, 311 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: the the attention and you know, for example, the mail, 312 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: how did you handle? I mean, I'm so glad there 313 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 1: were people who were writing kindly to you because the 314 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,879 Speaker 1: world was being so deeply unkind and not remembering that 315 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,679 Speaker 1: you were a human being who was helping you with 316 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: the scary parts, because I know what it's like to 317 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 1: get the threats and the things, and did you have 318 00:19:23,280 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: anyone to support you through that part of the process 319 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: as well. 320 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 2: I think there was a few weeks in I had 321 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 2: to spend the first few weeks of the investigation without 322 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 2: any psychological help because they weren't sure if I was 323 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 2: going to get immunity or not, and so it's a 324 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: whole long thing. But I eventually I had a ended 325 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 2: up with a forensic psychiatrist who helped save my life 326 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 2: a couple of times. It was amazing Doctor Susan And 327 00:19:55,480 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: then Judy Smith came on board, who worked with Shonda 328 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,879 Speaker 2: Rhimes on Scandal, so she is sort of the to 329 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: help with the with the pr which you know, it's like, Yes, 330 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: I grew up in la and around the industry in 331 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 2: some ways. I mean, my dad's a doctor and my 332 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 2: mom was a mom or I don't know what. I 333 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 2: don't know the phrase we use anymore, just a mom, 334 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 2: stay at home mom. I stayed at home mom, stay 335 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 2: at home mom. Okay, stay at home mom. So but 336 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 2: I didn't know this world, you know, And so there 337 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,680 Speaker 2: was that I. I was just with my best friend 338 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:38,920 Speaker 2: from college this past weekend, Catherine, and after she had 339 00:20:38,960 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 2: to testify before the grand jury, we were I was 340 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,199 Speaker 2: able to talk to her again. So I knew I 341 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 2: had one friend in the world. Like those pieces helped 342 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,640 Speaker 2: carry me through. And some drugs, you know, prescription drugs right, 343 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 2: antidepressants right, and some cupcakes and peanut eminem's. So I imagine 344 00:20:59,840 --> 00:21:00,280 Speaker 2: that not. 345 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: Only did you have to figure out how to process shame, 346 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:09,199 Speaker 1: how to eventually analyze anger, there must have been some 347 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:15,719 Speaker 1: pretty intense grieving for career, privacy, dreams, identity, the things 348 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:21,679 Speaker 1: that you had forward vision on for yourself that didn't 349 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: get to materialize because of this explosion. When in that 350 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 1: process were you able to begin to find the light, 351 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: like the moments to appreciate the aspects of your new reality. 352 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: What good could also come with this tremendous amount of hardship, 353 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: You know, I. 354 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:55,760 Speaker 2: Think that I think that things happened in ways, right, 355 00:21:56,200 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 2: So the first, you know, I was saying that I'm 356 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,760 Speaker 2: not really in touch with my anger. I think there 357 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 2: have been moments where I obviously have. There was a 358 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 2: period of time I think ten years out, but that 359 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 2: was the first time I expressed, like, really recognized my 360 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:18,760 Speaker 2: anger because it was when I came out of graduate 361 00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 2: school and I couldn't get a job, and so that 362 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 2: was a very rude awakening to me about, oh, this 363 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 2: is how much I've lost. And I think the grieving 364 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 2: has had to happen in tiny pockets as I've moved forward, 365 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 2: because I've also had to try to rebuild and try 366 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,199 Speaker 2: to rebuild in a landscape that it's like, oh, we 367 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 2: don't know that a new house can be built on 368 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: this kind of ground. It was not a given, you know, 369 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,120 Speaker 2: Oh a house existed here before, and therefore you can 370 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: rebuild this house, right, is it is new territory. Yeah. 371 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: And the fact that I've been able to move forward 372 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,160 Speaker 2: and build a life with meaning and purpose, you know, 373 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 2: that's happened in the last ten to eleven years. I'm incredibly 374 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,679 Speaker 2: grateful for it. But it was by no means a given, 375 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 2: you know, And so I think there are a lot 376 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 2: of other ways that this could have ended up to. 377 00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: Right, Well, it strikes me that you've had to really 378 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: excavate that ground yourself, and you probably had to start 379 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: by hand, and that's something a lot of people didn't. 380 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: Get, no, And I've had a lot of helpers, you know, 381 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:49,720 Speaker 2: and it's you know, it's something that I really I 382 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 2: don't work enough at it. I think there are other 383 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 2: people out in the world too, probably do more. But 384 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 2: it's a passionate about trying to find ways for people 385 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 2: who don't have the resources to get help, to get help, 386 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 2: and for people to really understand that getting help doesn't 387 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 2: just mean services. It's how do you have the time 388 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,359 Speaker 2: off from work? How do you have the time to process, 389 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 2: Like you can't just go on your lunch break and 390 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 2: talk about trauma and go back to lunch. And so 391 00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: that is, you know, that is the thing that not 392 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 2: being able to get a job or died me. That 393 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 2: I was able to have this time to work on 394 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:42,959 Speaker 2: myself and heal and rise, and but that there are 395 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 2: certain conditions that have to be present for that, and 396 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 2: how do we how do we help other people, and 397 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,439 Speaker 2: how do we help people who have the resources understand 398 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,360 Speaker 2: that we live in a much better world when everybody 399 00:24:55,440 --> 00:25:00,040 Speaker 2: is lifted. Yes, the heaviness of trauma, you know, and 400 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: so that is where that's where the world is better. 401 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yes, yes, yes, I mean from the rooftops. 402 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: It's the way the world can heal. And you're right, 403 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:19,159 Speaker 1: it requires time and it requires support. And I think 404 00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: when we try to rush it or we don't honor it, 405 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: that's where things really spin out sideways. I think about 406 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: that in terms of some of these amazing moves that 407 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: you've made. Someone we have in common now is Amanda Knox. 408 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: You know, she's come on the show. I've been an 409 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,960 Speaker 1: incredible fan of her books, and you helped her produce 410 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 1: the scripted series The Twisted Tale of Amanda Knox for Hulu, 411 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: and she very similarly to you, with someone whose story 412 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: was told for her, Her story was told with so 413 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: many inaccuracies. I mean, I remember hearing about the sex 414 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:07,199 Speaker 1: games and the thrupple and the right intimate night gone wrong, 415 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 1: and not only was that not true, there was literally 416 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: not one single shred of evidence that it ever happened 417 00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: had happened. It was truly something the police made up 418 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: because they thought it would paint her in a way 419 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: that would guarantee a conviction. Right, And to know that 420 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: that happened to someone who just so happened to be 421 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,080 Speaker 1: the first person home after her roommate was tragically murdered, 422 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: to know that they had fingerprints in DNA and they 423 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:44,880 Speaker 1: didn't care. They still pointed at her. I mean, it's 424 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: just it's so egregious and similarly to you, and similarly 425 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: to things I know I've experienced in so many women 426 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: I know I've experienced in the public eye. There was 427 00:26:55,600 --> 00:27:00,360 Speaker 1: glee at her destruction, even though the destruction was. 428 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 3: Based on a lie. Right. 429 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:07,720 Speaker 1: How did the two of you connect? Were you someone 430 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 1: that somebody out there connected her to and said you 431 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: have a lot to talk about, you could be a 432 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: support system. Were you interested in telling her story and 433 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:19,680 Speaker 1: you met that way? 434 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:20,000 Speaker 2: Like? 435 00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: How how did this stunning piece of television art that 436 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:28,959 Speaker 1: also is a reclamation? How did it happen? 437 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,840 Speaker 2: I think that so Amanda and I first met. I 438 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,280 Speaker 2: think it was twenty seventeen. She was doing her very 439 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 2: first public talk and I was speaking at this event 440 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 2: the day before, and I think she had known John 441 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 2: Ronson before, So I you know, John Ronson had talked 442 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 2: to her, talked to me about her a bit, and 443 00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 2: we connected and I, you know, recognized a pain that 444 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: I knew very well, you know, and in talking to her, 445 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 2: and we stayed in touch over the years, and in 446 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 2: twenty I guess it was, oh my god, I can't 447 00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 2: We've worked on this show for so fucking long. It 448 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 2: takes twenty twenty one. So the fall of twenty twenty one, 449 00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 2: I was in a first look deal at twentieth Television 450 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 2: and I read this interview that Amanda had given to 451 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 2: The New York Times and she was talking about wanting 452 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 2: to make a movie of her memoir. So I thought, oh, well, 453 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 2: you know what about a limited series? And when my 454 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 2: executive kind of got sign off there, went to Amanda, 455 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 2: brought everybody together, and we then together found our show 456 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 2: runner kJ Steinberg, who has just done an exquisite job 457 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 2: I think with the show. I mean, I am biased, 458 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 2: but one of the things, you know, So in the 459 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 2: micro sense, the show was important to me because I 460 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 2: felt Amanda deserved to have this, this sort of relensing 461 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 2: of her story and that reclamation. On a macro sense 462 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:17,120 Speaker 2: I was interested in exploring, even in myself that question 463 00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 2: of why do I know Foxy Noxy and still remember 464 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 2: Foxy NOXI I don't know who the fruity Gooday is 465 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: and I did not know that they had found Meredith murder. Yes, 466 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: And so that macro is so reflective of the culture. 467 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: It's so reflective of what we have come to do 468 00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: to young women in the public eye. Yes, and it is. 469 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 2: That piece of it was interesting to me on a 470 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 2: you know, yea psychosocial level and wanting to explore that. 471 00:29:53,120 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 2: And we were really lucky. It was important to both 472 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 2: Amanda and myself that Hulu and twenty and our producing 473 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 2: partners Little Field Company and kJ Stenberger showrunner were all 474 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 2: supportive of this idea of showing the aftermath. It was 475 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 2: really really important because there are moments of the aftermath 476 00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 2: that are universal for people. I don't you know, I 477 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 2: don't know. I know your experience was different in ways, 478 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: but I don't know if there was there were moments 479 00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 2: that felt resonant to you there, but it just that 480 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: was really important to me. 481 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was incredibly resonant to me, and I think 482 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: it's really interesting. You know, there were moments where I 483 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,560 Speaker 1: had to pause episodes, like I had to take a 484 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: break it. It was so true and touched such a 485 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: a live wire of the trauma I work on that 486 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: I needed space from it. And it's interesting to watch 487 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:04,840 Speaker 1: with you know, some friends who were like, no, we 488 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:07,400 Speaker 1: have to finish, and I'm going I need a break 489 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: me as I am. I need a break because I'm 490 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:14,480 Speaker 1: so emotionally overwhelmed for her, and it turns on all 491 00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: my own overwhelming myself. And I think that is such 492 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,280 Speaker 1: a testament to the truth you were able to tell 493 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 1: for her. 494 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 2: And with her because right she was she was an 495 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 2: executive producer too. Yes, I think that it's well, it 496 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 2: was something I learned really working on Ryan Murphy's impeachment, 497 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 2: and that was around this idea of emotional truth and 498 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 2: so that there, you know, there whatever degree of very 499 00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 2: similitude an actor wants to bring to a to a role, 500 00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 2: the thing that is really important is that emotional truth 501 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: because that then taps into the broader experiences that other 502 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 2: people have had when it's not the exact same d details. 503 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, in a way, it allows you to tell 504 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: a very specific story that resonates universally exactly. Yeah, And 505 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: now a word from our sponsors. In watching particularly in 506 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:29,240 Speaker 1: the last few weeks, the truth of this trove of 507 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein emails and files and all of it come 508 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: to light. I think about the truth for a lot 509 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: of those women, for those survivors who've been telling us 510 00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,920 Speaker 1: what happened to them for so long and who weren't believed, 511 00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: and everybody, I would say most of us knew. We 512 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,480 Speaker 1: trust people. We also trust the evidence and the photographs 513 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: and the things that we've seen. What really strikes me 514 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: right now is this incredible double standard of the way 515 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 1: the White House was held to task in the nineties 516 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:12,480 Speaker 1: versus at current And it's like, my brain can't understand 517 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: how our current president as one of the most mentioned 518 00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: people in this trove. You know, the ruling finding him 519 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: guilty of raping Agen Carol, the defamation, you know, the 520 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 1: details that have come out about these twelve and thirteen 521 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 1: year old girls, and these affidavits of these court cases 522 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: who withdrew the case because one disappeared and one was 523 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: so scared she was going to get killed. Like this 524 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,960 Speaker 1: is on a level of depravity that is so extreme, 525 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: and the spectrum of these abuses of power are breathtaking 526 00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:57,720 Speaker 1: to me and heartbreaking to me. And I on the 527 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: one hand, I feel like women are going, well, you're 528 00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: finally looking at it in print. Do you believe us now? 529 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:07,720 Speaker 1: And on the other when I think about my friends 530 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:11,279 Speaker 1: who've been through things you included, I'm like, are you okay? 531 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,160 Speaker 1: Because this is the sort of thing that can be 532 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: everywhere and really push on that bruise we carry. 533 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 3: Are you having and I told you so a moment. 534 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 2: Are you are? Are you getting in touch with anger? 535 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: Are like? How is this for you? 536 00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 2: I think what I find heartbreaking is that we have 537 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 2: first we as a society, whether you know, sure there 538 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 2: may have been individuals of us who felt differently or 539 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 2: some I didn't speak up, but some have in defense 540 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 2: of the survivors. But we failed these young women as 541 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:58,279 Speaker 2: a society. We failed these young women. And I have 542 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 2: felt for a while that all of this should be 543 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:06,359 Speaker 2: driven by the survivors. What do the survivors want? What 544 00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:11,279 Speaker 2: is best for the survivors according to them? Right? And 545 00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:19,560 Speaker 2: you know I think that I I don't care what 546 00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:23,919 Speaker 2: side of the aisle someone is on. I don't care 547 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: how revered they've been in history, how much they have 548 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:33,400 Speaker 2: done to help society. It is it's one thing for 549 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,239 Speaker 2: there to have been people who flew on a plane 550 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 2: not to the island and used bad judgment and the 551 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 2: degree to which they knew, which is we see that 552 00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:49,439 Speaker 2: complication in stories like Weinstein Too Sure, where there's sort 553 00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 2: of the level of what someone knew, what they didn't know, 554 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,319 Speaker 2: making assumptions. But there is zero chance of anybody who 555 00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 2: went to that island who did not know what was 556 00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 2: goinging on. There zero chance of people who spent an 557 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 2: enormous amount of time in Jeffrey Epstein's presence to have 558 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: not had a sense there was something darker happening there 559 00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 2: and scene around. And that's the part where you know, 560 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 2: you just think, Okay, what do we do so this 561 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 2: doesn't happen again, and also have to ask ourselves the question, 562 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,440 Speaker 2: where is this still happening now that we're not looking 563 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: we don't want to see? Yeah, you know, my publicist 564 00:36:35,680 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 2: was Virginia Duffrey's publicist, and so you know, it is 565 00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 2: just it's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking to think about what 566 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: that young woman went through and what she carried totally, 567 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 2: you know. 568 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:56,920 Speaker 1: And when I think about the level of public scrutiny, 569 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,240 Speaker 1: it's heartbreaking to me that that breaks some people. 570 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,080 Speaker 2: It makes me. 571 00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: Further impressed by and protective of people like yourself who've managed. 572 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,120 Speaker 3: To stay through it. 573 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: Grateful that you've had the support in the moments you've 574 00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,279 Speaker 1: needed it. Grateful that I have too. You know, I'm 575 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: really curious about the middle the place of reclaiming because 576 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: in this Amanda Knox story in your podcast, even when 577 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: I look at what these survivors of the Epstein world 578 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,240 Speaker 1: have been fighting for, it is to tell and reclaim 579 00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: their story. When you are part of a story that 580 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,400 Speaker 1: lives in the world with or without your consent, you 581 00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:55,239 Speaker 1: can't really reclaim it unless you get to put your 582 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 1: story in the world. Because when you're only talked about, 583 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,760 Speaker 1: but your voice is stolen from you, that's another harm. 584 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, And I. 585 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,600 Speaker 1: Think as a person who is still trying to figure 586 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: out how to reclaim my total voice on certain subjects, 587 00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: watching you, becoming friends with you, watching what you and 588 00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: Amanda have done together for Amanda's story, I feel like 589 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: you're really you've built your house on new terrain, but 590 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: I feel like now you're building a road in a 591 00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,960 Speaker 1: previously uncharted landscape for a lot of us to travel together. 592 00:38:36,160 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 1: And I wonder, thank you, Yeah, it's really profound. And 593 00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 1: I wonder what you think about. 594 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:46,919 Speaker 2: Trying you are. 595 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,239 Speaker 1: And I wonder you know, some of these women or 596 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 1: other people who deserve to have their stories told accurately. 597 00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: How do you feel about that now with a few 598 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,400 Speaker 1: read tellings under your belt? Yeah, you know, as a producer, 599 00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:07,000 Speaker 1: as a creative, as a person who makes narrative story 600 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 1: with the truth at the center, how do you think 601 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: about how they, or we or women around the world 602 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,640 Speaker 1: might heal from telling their stories? 603 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,799 Speaker 2: Right? I think you know. One thing that I think 604 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 2: is important to sort of put around a conversation like 605 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 2: this is a little like a conversation we have in 606 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 2: the anti bullying world around. I have a really hard 607 00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,000 Speaker 2: time when people say you have to stand up to 608 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 2: a bully. Okay, that's not true for everybody, right and 609 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,240 Speaker 2: so part and so that's where I feel like, I think, 610 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:51,279 Speaker 2: you know, and I've spoken privately to a number of 611 00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:57,280 Speaker 2: people who've gone through public, public humiliations. Whether I think 612 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 2: what they did was okay not okay. I take my 613 00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 2: own personal judgment out of it because I know the 614 00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 2: pain of not wanting to be here anymore because of 615 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 2: the weight of that humiliation. So I understand it. And 616 00:40:10,760 --> 00:40:13,400 Speaker 2: but people will say, well, you know, how did you 617 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,840 Speaker 2: reclaim your story? And it's like it is there is 618 00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 2: no three step process, there's no there is no universal 619 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 2: way that is works for each person, and it's and 620 00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:32,920 Speaker 2: so I want to make sure that people know you 621 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 2: can do reclaiming in the way that works for you. Right. 622 00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:42,120 Speaker 2: For many of us, it is about vocalizing that story, 623 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 2: you know, especially my I had a professor at graduate 624 00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 2: school who had said to me, you know that, like 625 00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:57,080 Speaker 2: my narrative had been constructed by powerful people and there 626 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 2: is no competing narrative there. I had no narrative coming 627 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,760 Speaker 2: from me, and that until there was a competing narrative, 628 00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 2: there was no other option, right, And so you know, 629 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 2: I wasn't ready to hear it when she first said 630 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 2: it to me, but it's it lodged in there somewhere 631 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 2: and helped me, And so I think there are you 632 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 2: know what it means like sometimes even when we talk 633 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,920 Speaker 2: about reclaiming, sometimes replacing what you had and was lost 634 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,040 Speaker 2: or taken from you is the same in getting it back, 635 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 2: it's like and so that's that's sort of part of it, 636 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:37,360 Speaker 2: is that I don't I think I've had experiences, and 637 00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:39,640 Speaker 2: maybe I should be more specific. I've had a few 638 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,839 Speaker 2: experiences where sometimes people have said to me I think 639 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:44,800 Speaker 2: I should write a book or I think I should 640 00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 2: do this, and I should, and it's like, yes, you 641 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 2: can do that, but be aware of the bigger circle. 642 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:56,280 Speaker 2: You know, you got into medical school, go to medical school. 643 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,879 Speaker 2: You know it's or if you want to do this, 644 00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:02,560 Speaker 2: it's fine, but make sure you're going to be okay 645 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 2: when the publishers. After the publishers have sort of exacted 646 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:10,600 Speaker 2: their flesh from your story, like what do you have 647 00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 2: after that? So, is writing a book and going public 648 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:18,719 Speaker 2: is that going to provide you? Because it's not a 649 00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 2: panacea in some of these instances. It may be a 650 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 2: step that's farther down the road. That's my opinion, you know, 651 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 2: from my experiences, and so I I don't know. Does 652 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:32,520 Speaker 2: that make sense? 653 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: Absolutely? I think there's so much wisdom in that. And 654 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: I think you know the reality that wraps around all 655 00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 1: of this, that's true for every subject we've talked about. 656 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: Is everything's really shades of gray. Yeah, it's a spectrum. 657 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,479 Speaker 1: There's no black and white, there's no right or wrong, 658 00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:57,560 Speaker 1: there's no yes or no. It's it's really a spectrum 659 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: of lived experience and many things are true at the 660 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:01,760 Speaker 1: same time and. 661 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 2: Well, and I think that's, you know, in both the 662 00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,920 Speaker 2: Twisted Tail of Amanda Knox. I think kJ built the 663 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:11,759 Speaker 2: show that the spine of the show is the anatomy 664 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,720 Speaker 2: of bias in understanding not just what happened, but how 665 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:19,719 Speaker 2: did this happen? Yeah, And I think in the podcast, 666 00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 2: the kind of conversations I'm wanting to have are you know. 667 00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:26,000 Speaker 2: I mean, I hope you felt that way for mar Chad. 668 00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:31,160 Speaker 2: I was so grateful you came on and it's like 669 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:34,719 Speaker 2: I want to know all the things. You know, it's 670 00:43:34,760 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 2: all the shades that are in there and what because 671 00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,880 Speaker 2: I think that's that's where I think you could be 672 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 2: helping other people. And like, I'm very I think you're 673 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,600 Speaker 2: the same. I'm not prescriptive on my podcast at all. 674 00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 2: And it's like I want the listener to find what 675 00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 2: they need in the conversation because I trust that people 676 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:58,120 Speaker 2: are wise enough. Prescriptive is great, and there are plenty 677 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:00,480 Speaker 2: of people who do prescriptive and it is really helpful 678 00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,760 Speaker 2: to people. It can be really helpful to me at times. 679 00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:07,960 Speaker 2: But I also think there's something to navigating what you're feeling, 680 00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:12,160 Speaker 2: what you're hearing, what's coming up for you, what are 681 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:15,200 Speaker 2: you thinking about differently that you hadn't thought about before? 682 00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:18,879 Speaker 2: And you can only do that in the soup of context. 683 00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:32,759 Speaker 1: Totally, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors, when 684 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 1: you think about the podcast in particular, because you do, 685 00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:39,879 Speaker 1: you give so many people space to reclaim narratives. You 686 00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,239 Speaker 1: get to bring your full self into every conversation, and 687 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: so everyone who listens gets to know you better too. 688 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 1: What do you think is the most meaningful part of 689 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:55,760 Speaker 1: your own reclamation in that interview series. 690 00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,560 Speaker 2: I think it's a great question. I need to think 691 00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 2: about it for a second. I would say, I think 692 00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:13,080 Speaker 2: it's it's it's funny because I guess what's coming up 693 00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 2: for me is very typical me. It's like, Okay, what 694 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 2: can I be doing for someone else? Which is not 695 00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:22,160 Speaker 2: always a good thing though it may seem whatever. But 696 00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 2: for me, it's been very meaningful that people who've come 697 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,520 Speaker 2: on the show have told me they felt safe, that 698 00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:33,920 Speaker 2: people who listen to the show have said, oh, I 699 00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,160 Speaker 2: feel like I saw or heard a different side to 700 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:41,479 Speaker 2: this person and I didn't realize or didn't know I've 701 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,480 Speaker 2: heard from one a young woman who was in the 702 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,440 Speaker 2: Who's associate producer on The Amanda Knox Show, who was like, 703 00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:49,239 Speaker 2: I don't know how you do it, but when I 704 00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,400 Speaker 2: finished listening to an episode, I feel less alone, Like, 705 00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,440 Speaker 2: I mean, what bigger gift could you get? Or you know, 706 00:45:56,960 --> 00:45:59,279 Speaker 2: the lady who made my smoothie when I got a 707 00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:02,200 Speaker 2: ten million dollar or smoothi at Airwine, you know who, 708 00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,160 Speaker 2: and my name is on the thing because of my 709 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:07,680 Speaker 2: my points there and she's like, I love your podcast, 710 00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,000 Speaker 2: you know. So it's just those moments of connection like 711 00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:15,239 Speaker 2: that all feels. I think it feels like part of 712 00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 2: my reclaiming because it's purpose and it fills it fills 713 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 2: me in a very deep way. I love it. Yeah, 714 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,160 Speaker 2: so it's it's a lot. I mean, as you know, 715 00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,560 Speaker 2: it's so much more work than I ever could have 716 00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 2: imagined ever, you know, And I want to protect people 717 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:36,760 Speaker 2: and yeah. 718 00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and and and I think one of the 719 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:45,080 Speaker 1: things I've learned from it is I don't have to 720 00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:51,160 Speaker 1: ask every question that everyone else there might want me to. Yeah, 721 00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,719 Speaker 1: I don't have to do that. I think we we 722 00:46:53,880 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 1: really can shift away from some of what feels typical 723 00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,320 Speaker 1: and sad and that's really nice. 724 00:47:04,640 --> 00:47:09,799 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's trying to be Actually, I learned 725 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 2: this from Torona Burke when she came on, and she 726 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,680 Speaker 2: talked so much about how important it is to not 727 00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:22,239 Speaker 2: ask survivors or to expect that a survivor is going 728 00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 2: to tell their story. Yes that you know, we can 729 00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,080 Speaker 2: and I've heard you do this on your podcast too, 730 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:31,960 Speaker 2: So it's you know, in your conversations, which is creating 731 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,200 Speaker 2: a space if someone wants to they can, but also 732 00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 2: that that option of I can summarize for the audience 733 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:40,719 Speaker 2: so they know what happened, and it's just we're not 734 00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,880 Speaker 2: like playing in the sandbox of trauma porn. Yes, you know, 735 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 2: I think that that's really important. 736 00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:52,359 Speaker 1: And I think, especially when you've been through it, we're 737 00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,120 Speaker 1: so much more than the worst things that have ever 738 00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,279 Speaker 1: happened to us. And when that's all anyone wants to 739 00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,959 Speaker 1: talk to you about, it's like, really, yeah, to your point, 740 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,080 Speaker 1: you look at this whole resume and it's this, yeah, like, 741 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: let me be a human, not a topic, right, And 742 00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:15,840 Speaker 1: I think there's something really special about those of us 743 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,440 Speaker 1: who want to not just have a great conversation but 744 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:23,080 Speaker 1: take care of our people. Yeah, taking up more space 745 00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:23,840 Speaker 1: in this arena. 746 00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's why one of the reasons I 747 00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:29,960 Speaker 2: admire I know one of your favorite guests that I'm 748 00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,399 Speaker 2: like maybe one day, but Michelle Obama is just I mean, 749 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,319 Speaker 2: she's just such an extraordinary woman and one of those 750 00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:42,080 Speaker 2: people that in decades, hundreds of years from now, if 751 00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,240 Speaker 2: we're still exist on the planet, there will be people saying, 752 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,520 Speaker 2: imagine being alive at the same time she was, Yes, 753 00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,200 Speaker 2: imagine being in the world. I haven't met her, but 754 00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 2: I know a lot of people who know her, and 755 00:48:54,960 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 2: I just obviously as a person, I see what she 756 00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:01,920 Speaker 2: puts into the world. It is. 757 00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's extraordinary, so special when you when you sit 758 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,160 Speaker 3: at this vantage point, you know, looking out at all 759 00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 3: this incredible work that you've done and the work you're 760 00:49:13,600 --> 00:49:14,240 Speaker 3: still doing. 761 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,279 Speaker 1: You know, things you're developing the self, you're still developing 762 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:22,120 Speaker 1: what feels like your work in progress right now. 763 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,920 Speaker 2: Oh my god, there's so much and it's so funny. 764 00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:28,000 Speaker 2: I love I love the title of your podcast so 765 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:31,439 Speaker 2: much because there's that Latin phrase which I always say wrong, 766 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:36,160 Speaker 2: mutatus mutandis I think it is. It's like used in 767 00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:39,839 Speaker 2: legal things with change is still being made, and I've 768 00:49:39,880 --> 00:49:42,879 Speaker 2: often joked that that's going to be on my tombstone, so. 769 00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:44,799 Speaker 1: You know, I love that. 770 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 2: But I you know, I think professionally, I'm really excited 771 00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,560 Speaker 2: about continuing to grow the podcast and grow the conversations 772 00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:02,480 Speaker 2: I'm having. I think in that way, developing entertainment in 773 00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:11,120 Speaker 2: that space that moves conversations forward in whatever lane or 774 00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,640 Speaker 2: topic that might be. Yeah, and I think that, I mean, 775 00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,560 Speaker 2: my personal I'm like working on every I had a 776 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,719 Speaker 2: really tough day yesterday and just you know, the like 777 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:25,520 Speaker 2: sitting in the tears and sitting in the numbness and 778 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,640 Speaker 2: just kind of going, okay, this is this is where 779 00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:32,359 Speaker 2: I am today, you know, and my world reflected it. 780 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,719 Speaker 2: I came home from being away for a couple of 781 00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:36,960 Speaker 2: days to a leak, and then driving in the car 782 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,360 Speaker 2: that night, I hit something in my side view mirror 783 00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:43,080 Speaker 2: broke love, you know, and it was just like okay, 784 00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,080 Speaker 2: sometimes like you just get in a hot bath and 785 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,600 Speaker 2: you cry and it's okay, you know, okay, it's okay, 786 00:50:50,680 --> 00:50:54,320 Speaker 2: And so all the things, you know, all the things. 787 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,480 Speaker 2: This has been so lovely. 788 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,000 Speaker 1: Sophia the best, Thank you so much. 789 00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,399 Speaker 2: We will we will make a plan for soon yes, 790 00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:03,920 Speaker 2: I would love nothing more.