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Speaker 1: Some breaking news, sixteen attorneys general are challenging e p

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Speaker 1: a s one year delay in protecting the public's held

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Speaker 1: from dangerous smog pollution. They are filing the lawsuit against

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Speaker 1: the e p A, saying they have stalled action on

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Speaker 1: the Clean Air Act and that that is illegal. Will

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Speaker 1: have more on that tomorrow, and now to our case

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Speaker 1: about airlines. This is the case of the incredible shrinking

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Speaker 1: airline seat. As many have no doubt noticed, aircraft seats

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Speaker 1: in the spacing between them have been getting smaller and smaller,

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Speaker 1: while American passengers have been growing in size. Those are

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Speaker 1: all the words of Judge Patricia Millett in an opinion

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Speaker 1: for the d C Circuit Court of Appeals in favor

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Speaker 1: of Flyers Rights, a nonprofit advocacy group. So far, the

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Speaker 1: f a A has allowed airlines to determine how to

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Speaker 1: size and space their seats, but the appellate court ordered

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Speaker 1: the agency to consider setting minimum standards for the space

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Speaker 1: airlines give passengers. The Senate rejected an amendment introduced by

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Speaker 1: New York Senator Chuck Schumer last April that would have

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Speaker 1: required the f a A to set such minimum standards.

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Speaker 1: God forbid, there's a serious problem on the plane. It's

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Speaker 1: a lot harder to get out. We've always known it's

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Speaker 1: a horrible inconvenience that makes traveling a nightmare. The decision

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Speaker 1: comes as airlines have moved to put more seats on plane,

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Speaker 1: shrinking space for passengers even more. Joining me is Alan

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Speaker 1: levin Bloomberg News f a A reporter. What was the

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Speaker 1: argument to the court, Alan that moved the court to

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Speaker 1: do this? Well, basically, f a A argued that they

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Speaker 1: do take this into account when they test the safety

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Speaker 1: of a new aircraft, and when they do that, they

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Speaker 1: require that the manufacturers, say Boeing or air Bus, show

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Speaker 1: that they can get a plane load of people off

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Speaker 1: within ninety seconds. But the results of those tests are

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Speaker 1: proprietary and f A refused to turn them over to

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Speaker 1: the petitioner and to the court even under seal. So

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Speaker 1: the judge judges ruled that unless they actually provide real data,

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Speaker 1: they have to go and reconsider this. The judge said

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Speaker 1: that type of vaporous record will not do. The Administrative

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Speaker 1: Procedure Act requires reason, decision making, grounded and actual evidence,

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Speaker 1: But they didn't order the f a A to change in.

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Speaker 1: The f a A said it's studying the ruling carefully

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Speaker 1: in any potential actions we may take to address the

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Speaker 1: Court's findings. So the f a A could potentially just

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Speaker 1: ignore this ignore is probably too strong a word. They

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Speaker 1: have to go back and produce some evidence and bolster

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Speaker 1: their case. Uh. But it's interesting, you know this court

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Speaker 1: both in the you know you read the decision. It's

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Speaker 1: it's written in a very uh, you know, easy to

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Speaker 1: understand and almost attention grabbing sort of way. It comes

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Speaker 1: after a series of these viral videos, most notably the

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Speaker 1: doctor who was violently dragged off of an airplane. So

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Speaker 1: it's gotten a lot of attention. But I have to

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Speaker 1: say the chances of this having a significant effect on

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Speaker 1: on the size of seats on airlines is probably pretty low.

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Speaker 1: Joining us is Paul Hudson, the founder of Flyers Rights,

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Speaker 1: which brought the lawsuit. Paul, If the f a A

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Speaker 1: says it's studying the rule and any potential actions but

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Speaker 1: doesn't take any actions to address the Court's findings, what

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Speaker 1: will your group do? Well, because we understand a decision, um,

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Speaker 1: they're required to do more than just take a look

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Speaker 1: at things. Again, the court reprimanded them for essentially coming

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Speaker 1: up with uh, with inadequate or or even focus seven

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Speaker 1: inch to justify their conclusion that seats had nothing toto

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Speaker 1: with safety. Um, if they cannot come up with proper

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Speaker 1: studies and they or the hand, they cannot accept the

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Speaker 1: petition for rulemaking, I think we'll be back in court

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Speaker 1: and Alan the f A A does have regulations for

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Speaker 1: some parts of the plane's cabin, why not for seats? Well,

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Speaker 1: I think UH, they would argue that they do in

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Speaker 1: effect have rules because they require these tests, these evacuation tests. Now, clearly, UH,

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Speaker 1: there's no specific rule on the distance between seats known

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Speaker 1: as seat pitch, but they did. You know, at least

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Speaker 1: what the f A would argue is that the tests

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Speaker 1: required Boeing and Airbus to get a plane load of

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Speaker 1: people off in In some cases it was with seats

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Speaker 1: close as twenty eight or twenty nine inches apart. Most

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Speaker 1: airline airlines now have seats about thirty inches apart, though

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Speaker 1: there are some exceptions. Down to Paul, was your argument

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Speaker 1: a safety argument or was there also a comfort argument?

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Speaker 1: Or does that not matter? Well, we we argued, UH,

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Speaker 1: safety first. Secondly helped uh Famely, blood clots are are

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Speaker 1: a greater risk with these small seats and UH we

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Speaker 1: also argued comfort. The court said that they wouldn't consider

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Speaker 1: comfort UM and the FAA said that with regard to

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Speaker 1: the safety tests, the last time there was a UH

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Speaker 1: an actual test emergency evacuation UM was in and it

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Speaker 1: did not account for the larger passenger sizes, the older passengers,

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Speaker 1: as well as the shrunken seats. Generally, since the mid nineties, UH,

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Speaker 1: they have been passing things based on simulations or our

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Speaker 1: computer modeling, not actual full scale evacuation tests. UM. The

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Speaker 1: court looked at all the studies that were submitted and

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Speaker 1: they found them to be UH completely and there weren't

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Speaker 1: vapors and alan this is prompted, Well, we just we

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Speaker 1: heard from Chuck Schumer he did have some legislation and

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Speaker 1: other legislators have to Has this issue prompted any kind

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Speaker 1: of move by more US lawmakers to set a legal

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Speaker 1: standard for airline seats. Sure, and there there are there's

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Speaker 1: legislation and pending amendments in both the House and Senate

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Speaker 1: that would require the FA to take a closer look

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Speaker 1: at this UM. You know, on Paul's point, UM, it's

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Speaker 1: the the whole issue of evacuation safety has been a

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Speaker 1: huge one for the last thirty years or so. More

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Speaker 1: or more even there was a horrible incident in Manchester,

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Speaker 1: England which over fifty people died simply because they could

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Speaker 1: not get out of a plane as a fire raged outside.

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Speaker 1: But interestingly, it's not just seats the the the it's

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Speaker 1: the combustibility of materials. It's the ability of flames to

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Speaker 1: burn through the plane. And the f A has literally

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Speaker 1: taken many steps to improve that. And fast forward to

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Speaker 1: Chicago last October, there was a massive fire on a

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Speaker 1: wide body plane. Everybody got out safe, So I think

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Speaker 1: it's important to keep a broader context here. The evacuation

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Speaker 1: safety is undeniably much safer now than it was thirty

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Speaker 1: years ago and about twenty seconds. Do you agree with that, Paul,

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Speaker 1: Uh No, I'm afraid not, because the most recently we've

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Speaker 1: seen case us where, for instance, uh the last months

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Speaker 1: there was an evacuation where plane h pensions were on fire.

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Speaker 1: It took about five minutes for people to get out.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'm sorry, we have to close this discussion.

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Speaker 1: It's very important and we'll pick it up again. That's

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Speaker 1: Paul Hudson, founder of Flyers Rights, and Alan Levin, Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: News f A A reporter. That's it for this edition

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Speaker 1: of Bloomberg Glove. We'll be back tomorrow at one pm

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Time. Thanks to our producer David Sutcherman and

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Speaker 1: our technical director Charlie Boomer. I'm June Gralso this is

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg