Speaker 1: Mother Knows Dad starring Nicole and Jemmy and Maria qk Hi.
Speaker 1: Everyone welcome The Mother Knows Death. On this episode, we
Speaker 1: are going to be talking about more celebrity death conspiracy theories,
Speaker 1: the astronauts that were stranded in space finally coming home,
Speaker 1: a man who lived with his dead girlfriend for twenty days,
Speaker 1: and not telling your family when you have a terminal illness.
Speaker 1: We also have a lot more to discuss on today's episode,
Speaker 1: So let's start off with this newest celebrity death conspiracy theory.
Speaker 2: All right, So basically this new docu series drafted on Apple,
Speaker 2: where these people are saying they believe that Jim Morrison
Speaker 2: of The Doors is alive even though we believe that
Speaker 2: he died back in nineteen seventy one.
Speaker 1: So is this something that is new because I know
Speaker 1: that forever there's been conspiracy theories of him and Elvis
Speaker 1: and whoever else like still being alive. There's been parodies
Speaker 1: in movies. Do you remember I think it was like
Speaker 1: death that Becomes Her. They were, you know, like all
Speaker 1: those people had taken that potion and there was like
Speaker 1: this party afterwards, and Elvis was there, and you know,
Speaker 1: like things like that, like fun things and movies, just
Speaker 1: acting like these people are still alive. So I mean,
Speaker 1: there was definitely shadiness when he died, so I could
Speaker 1: understand why people this is exactly why conspiracy theories happened,
Speaker 1: because things aren't done according to protocol, right, Yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2: When he died. He was only twenty seven when he died,
Speaker 2: and it was just after they finished recording an album
Speaker 2: and he was notably dealing with severe drug problems at
Speaker 2: the time. But basically he was found dead in a bathtub.
Speaker 2: They didn't do an autopsy, and then he got buried
Speaker 2: in pairs, which I thought was really weird. But I
Speaker 2: don't really know all that much about his life and
Speaker 2: maybe if he wanted to be buried there or whatever,
Speaker 2: but it all seemed to go down pretty quickly. But
Speaker 2: it is unusual, in my opinion, it's unusual that they
Speaker 2: wouldn't do an autopsy, especially on such a high profile person.
Speaker 1: So was his girlfriend at the time. I don't really
Speaker 1: know a ton about this. Was his girlfriend at the
Speaker 1: time from France.
Speaker 2: No, I don't think she was. I think that she
Speaker 2: was American and they met in the United States. Okay,
Speaker 2: so well, regardless they they were there, and I've seen
Speaker 2: a couple different things that she was They were a
Speaker 2: longtime girlfriend and boyfriend, so there might have been a
Speaker 2: thing that he was considered to be common law with her,
Speaker 2: which may give her some rights as far.
Speaker 1: As where he's buried. And maybe, I mean, one possibility
Speaker 1: is that they just loved that city and that is
Speaker 1: where she would thought he would want to be buried.
Speaker 1: But I just have a lot of questions about how
Speaker 1: it all went down. So I guess the first shady
Speaker 1: thing is is that he died and they didn't alert
Speaker 1: anybody or the media, Like nobody knew for six days,
Speaker 1: and he was already buried by the time the public
Speaker 1: found out, so his family and friends were very surprised
Speaker 1: to hear about it. And I feel like her story
Speaker 1: changed a lot about what happened that night.
Speaker 2: And she was a drug addict too, and I think
Speaker 2: I think she ended up overdosing not long after him, So.
Speaker 1: Regardless, her story changed a lot. And then obviously when
Speaker 1: people are on drugs are drinking and stuff, the whole
Speaker 1: story is going to change. But I guess it did
Speaker 1: come out to be true years later that the scene
Speaker 1: was not initially what investigators suspected, so they came up
Speaker 1: to the house and found him in the bathtub dead.
Speaker 1: But then later when they did some investigation, witnesses came
Speaker 1: forward and said that it actually, this is the newest
Speaker 1: allegation that it appears that he had an overdose in
Speaker 1: a nightclub that night, and he had been found in
Speaker 1: the nightclub bathroom, bent over the toilet, unresponsive, and the
Speaker 1: people that had sold him the drugs that night had
Speaker 1: taken him back to the house and put him in
Speaker 1: the bathtub. Now, the shady thing that comes out of
Speaker 1: that is that these two people who were selling the
Speaker 1: drugs at the club were these high profile drug dealers
Speaker 1: that sold to celebrities, and they were called aristocrats or whatever.
Speaker 1: They're really high profile people, and they were trying to
Speaker 1: cover it up. And the very interesting thing is that
Speaker 1: there's allegations that one of these drug dealers was having
Speaker 1: an affair with Jim Morrison's girlfriend.
Speaker 2: I mean, it's totally possible that this happened. It was
Speaker 2: also the seventies, so just like it's the seventies, you're
Speaker 2: in a different country. They have different forensic protocols when
Speaker 2: it comes to finding a dead person.
Speaker 1: I do clearly know standards whatsoever, because this easily could
Speaker 1: have been figured out. And I guess you know, we
Speaker 1: could say this with all sorts of celebrity deaths, that
Speaker 1: normal protocols aren't aren't followed, and look what happens. Like
Speaker 1: so in a normal situation, you would one hundred percent
Speaker 1: do an autopsy. In this case because the guys twenty
Speaker 1: seven drugs were involved. There's just multiple reasons why you
Speaker 1: would do an autopsy in this case. The girlfriend said
Speaker 1: she found them, like okay, okay, Like why don't we
Speaker 1: do the autopsy and figure out what really happened because
Speaker 1: we're not listening to people's stories because I don't know.
Speaker 1: There's just been a history of people lying about what
Speaker 1: actually happened forever. So that's why autopsies are done. So
Speaker 1: the very first thing that we could notice with just
Speaker 1: an external exam in a situation like that is if
Speaker 1: his body was indeed moved after he died, so that
Speaker 1: could have been something that was done without even cutting
Speaker 1: his body open. Is to be able to tell that.
Speaker 1: And the way that we could tell that is, so
Speaker 1: let's say, for example, the story that we're hearing is
Speaker 1: true that he did in fact die at the nightclub, so,
Speaker 1: which is which is also interesting because of what the
Speaker 1: witnesses said. So they went in the bathroom and they
Speaker 1: found them slumped over the toilet for an unknown amount
Speaker 1: of time. And this person that found him had said
Speaker 1: that he was unresponsive, he was already dead, and he
Speaker 1: had foam coming out of his mouth and his nose.
Speaker 1: And this is what is expected to be seen in
Speaker 1: a person who has had an opioid overdose because it
Speaker 1: depresses the respiratory centers in the brain and it causes
Speaker 1: pulmonary edema, which is fluid in the lungs. So when
Speaker 1: people are taking their last breaths, that little bit of
Speaker 1: air mixed with that fluid creates a foam and it
Speaker 1: froths out through the nose and at autopsy you would
Speaker 1: see that in the long tissue as well as in
Speaker 1: the trachea. But so this is important that this guy
Speaker 1: saw this. But when you die, all of the blood
Speaker 1: leaves your circulatory system and it starts going to the
Speaker 1: dependent areas based upon gravity. So, for example, when we
Speaker 1: do autopsies on people who die in the hospital, when
Speaker 1: you die laying in bed, when the blood starts leaving
Speaker 1: your circulatory system, it goes to the lowest point, which
Speaker 1: would be the entire back of your body, and that's
Speaker 1: what we see usually in hospital autopsies. But if he died,
Speaker 1: for example, in the bathroom at this club, and was
Speaker 1: bent over the toilet, so let's say he was kneeling
Speaker 1: next to it like you would be if you were vomiting,
Speaker 1: then you would expect to see this blood pulling. This
Speaker 1: is also called lividity or live re mortis. You would
Speaker 1: see this in the front of his body wherever he
Speaker 1: was leaning over, so you would see it in his
Speaker 1: face and his belly. So even if those guys picked
Speaker 1: him up and moved him back to the house and
Speaker 1: put him in the bathtub, you would still expect to
Speaker 1: see the live re mortis on the front of his body,
Speaker 1: which to any death investigator you would be like HM's
Speaker 1: that he has lividity on the front of his body
Speaker 1: when he was found in the bathtub on his back.
Speaker 1: So do you understand like that that to me would
Speaker 1: be really unusual. I guess the girlfriend said that he
Speaker 1: had blood coming out of his nose in his mouth.
Speaker 1: And another way that you could explain that is that
Speaker 1: when a body starts decomposing, the bacteria start breaking down
Speaker 1: the organs, and this fluid could come The organs essentially
Speaker 1: start to liquefy and they could come out of the mouth,
Speaker 1: especially when the bodies move. So sometimes if we find
Speaker 1: a body there's nothing there and then you move the
Speaker 1: body just to bring the body to the morgan, this
Speaker 1: fluid comes out of their mouth and nose, and it's
Speaker 1: not really blood. It's like a brownish fluid. It's called purge,
Speaker 1: but some people mistake it to look like blood. So
Speaker 1: that's another indication that he was moved, and also that
Speaker 1: he was decomposing for some time before authorities were called
Speaker 1: to the house. So this is exactly why autopsies need
Speaker 1: to be done, because you just can't especially with people
Speaker 1: that are on drugs, you can't trust them.
Speaker 2: Wait, I have a side note question. So this new
Speaker 2: show came out this week with Amanda Seifred on Peacock.
Speaker 2: It's she's like a cop in Kensington in Philly and
Speaker 2: she deals with like all the drug addicts on K
Speaker 2: and A and everything. But on the first episode of
Speaker 2: the show, all these women are showing up dead and
Speaker 2: then they're saying the medical examiner is just like, oh,
Speaker 2: they just odeed, so we're not doing autopsies. Is that
Speaker 2: standard that they would find an ode person on the
Speaker 2: street and does not assume.
Speaker 1: No they And that was actually interesting to me as
Speaker 1: a student because I remember one time and we had
Speaker 1: so many drug cases and this was when it wasn't
Speaker 1: even super crazy like it is now in Philly, but
Speaker 1: we would do We had an autopsy on this one
Speaker 1: guy who was like my age. He was in his
Speaker 1: young twenties and he odd in the basement of his
Speaker 1: house and his parents found him dead, and it was
Speaker 1: I just was upset about it because I was like,
Speaker 1: this is terrible for parents to find their kids. And
Speaker 1: the mom said, you know, he's had problems his whole
Speaker 1: life and this and that. So my first question, because
Speaker 1: this is when I was a student still, I was
Speaker 1: kind of like, all right, well, he has injection marks
Speaker 1: in his arm, he has this long standing history of
Speaker 1: overdosing and being on drugs, Like he was found in
Speaker 1: all the classic ways you would see from an overdose death,
Speaker 1: Like why are we doing this autopsy right now? And
Speaker 1: that's just what happens. They're all done because you don't
Speaker 1: really know, you just want to confirm it. Toxicology will
Speaker 1: confirm it. And this is another thing too, like you
Speaker 1: have a guy that overdosed and you didn't even do toxicology.
Speaker 1: They actually came out and said with Jim Morrison that
Speaker 1: his cause of death was or his manner of death
Speaker 1: was natural. And they said that maybe he had a
Speaker 1: heart attack. Yes, they didn't even say that. The speculation
Speaker 1: of him overdosing actually didn't even come up until fans
Speaker 1: back in the US were just like, Yeah, this guy
Speaker 1: had like a drug problem and he probably over.
Speaker 2: And how is a twenty seven year old that's seemingly
Speaker 2: healthy just gonna have a heart attack and die.
Speaker 1: Well, that could happen, so don't you don't mind.
Speaker 2: But I'm saying it's not usual, and they're therefore in
Speaker 2: autopos It absolutely is not usual. And especially listen when anybody,
Speaker 2: like if you had a twenty seven year old that
Speaker 2: was it, that went to the hospital and then got
Speaker 2: diagnosed with a heart condition, maybe a congenital heart condition
Speaker 2: that was unknown or something, and they died, it might
Speaker 2: not be indicative to do an autopsy when you find
Speaker 2: a twenty seven year old dead in a bathtub, like
Speaker 2: it's you do an autopsy, You just do, especially when
Speaker 2: they have a history of drugs, especially when they're freaking
Speaker 2: Jim Morrison, Like, the whole thing's crazy. But I mean, listen,
Speaker 2: I don't even know what happened in the seventies in
Speaker 2: this country, let alone. But I do know.
Speaker 1: Because we've covered a lot of celebrity death dissections that
Speaker 1: happened during this time period, and I do know that
Speaker 1: they had the ability to see all of these things
Speaker 1: that I'm talking about right now. They had toxicology, They
Speaker 1: had the ability to use a knife and cut him
Speaker 1: open and look at his lungs, look at them under
Speaker 1: the microscope, and they would easily been able to rest
Speaker 1: all of this. But maybe, I mean, maybe they were
Speaker 1: afraid of the media getting crazy and they just wanted
Speaker 1: to get him in the ground and move on. But
Speaker 1: I always think it's suspicious when people are very quick
Speaker 1: to get someone in the ground.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, this is kind of adding to why this
Speaker 2: docuseries has come out and is really controversial, because they're
Speaker 2: basically alluding to the fact that because of how suspicious
Speaker 2: his death was and how quickly he was buried in everything,
Speaker 2: that they think he might have faked his death, and
Speaker 2: that he's this man named Frank that's currently living in Syracuse,
Speaker 2: New York. So I don't know how this filmmaker came
Speaker 2: to this conclusion or ended up finding this person named Frank.
Speaker 2: They did interview this man, I will say. Looking at
Speaker 2: pictures of him and a young Jim Morrison, they do
Speaker 2: look very similar. But again, this could be solved with
Speaker 2: a simple DNA test. So I don't know why there's.
Speaker 1: Alla And his brother is in the documentary as well,
Speaker 1: I believe, so that again very very simple for them
Speaker 1: to figure that out. And also I mean in theory,
Speaker 1: if he was buried in Paris, he's his body's still there,
Speaker 1: like if you really if if you really wanted to know,
Speaker 1: and the brother is the legal next to kin, I mean,
Speaker 1: it just exzoom him and find out. Exzoom the body
Speaker 1: and see if it's him. I mean, this could just
Speaker 1: be close. What's the why is it like this? What
Speaker 1: is there so many questions about it's I feel like
Speaker 1: it's an easy fix.
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like it's an easy answer. I was
Speaker 2: looking online and it doesn't seem like the reviews of
Speaker 2: the docuseries are that great and saying it's very long
Speaker 2: and drawn out and not really giving definitive answers, so
Speaker 2: kind of what's the point. But I yeah, I think
Speaker 2: if you just look at the pictures of these people
Speaker 2: next to each other, you could say that. But everybody
Speaker 2: has doppelgangers, so you can't just say that this man
Speaker 2: is is Jim Morrison. And maybe he is, but like,
Speaker 2: just get the DNA test.
Speaker 1: One of the questions that I did have about this, though,
Speaker 1: is to see who the beneficiary was. Because I did,
Speaker 1: I couldn't really get a clear answer. It seems like
Speaker 1: she could have been, like I said, because they were
Speaker 1: saying that they were common law because he did he
Speaker 1: had money, right, And I mean, come on, if this
Speaker 1: woman was having an affair with the guy that sold
Speaker 1: him drugs, I mean, it is quite possible that it
Speaker 1: was just a bad batch or whatever he just did
Speaker 1: too much, because that happens often. But it's a little
Speaker 1: shady that the guy who gave you the drugs that
Speaker 1: killed you was actually having an affair with his girlfriend.
Speaker 1: Like it's just yeah, but what would be the point
Speaker 1: of inheriting it if she ended up over overdosing not
Speaker 1: that long after him. Well, she didn't know she was
Speaker 1: going to She didn't know she was going to die.
Speaker 1: And furthermore, like if she had any involvement with his death,
Speaker 1: she probably if she if it was truly accidental, she
Speaker 1: might have felt terrible about it. And I mean, anyway,
Speaker 1: if you do heroin, the chances of you still doing
Speaker 1: it are just going to be greater, and especially if
Speaker 1: you have a big loss. So I'm not necessarily saying
Speaker 1: that it was intentional, but it's also just kind of
Speaker 1: like it just deems an investigation at the very least.
Speaker 2: So I'm sure most of our listeners know about this too.
Speaker 2: But Jim Morrison's in this like unofficial club called the
Speaker 2: twenty seven Club, which is these people that were young
Speaker 2: and at the peak of their career that ended up
Speaker 2: dying when they were twenty seven years old. So in
Speaker 2: addition to Jim Morrison, there's Jimmy Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, and
Speaker 2: Janis Joplin. They all died when they were I think
Speaker 2: Keith Ledger too. Oh maybe he thought I thought he
Speaker 2: was a little older, but maybe not.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying.
Speaker 2: Aren't they all drug related deaths? Yeah, every single person
Speaker 2: that's in this club. So I think that's really interesting
Speaker 2: culturally that you reach this point and then you're just like,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I was talking to Ricky about this
Speaker 2: recently because I really love the Doors music. I know
Speaker 2: you're not the biggest fan of the era of music,
Speaker 2: but I really love their songs, and I was saying
Speaker 2: how I was surprised that the band put up with
Speaker 2: him because he seemed like such a fucking miss with
Speaker 2: the way he gave me.
Speaker 1: Why they put up with him because he was the
Speaker 1: band Nobody can even can name one of the other
Speaker 1: members unless you're like a superfan.
Speaker 2: No, I know that. So it's like it kind of
Speaker 2: sucks because you're faced with this person that's such a problem,
Speaker 2: but he's the face of your band, Like, yeah, they
Speaker 2: could have kicked him out and got another singer, but
Speaker 2: it wouldn't have been the same never goes over, Well, no,
Speaker 2: it never would, and it's you know it happened with
Speaker 2: Nirvana to like the singers die and then your whole
Speaker 2: band's over.
Speaker 1: I do see though, like I know that the same
Speaker 1: thing happened with Kirk Cobain, that he was just kind
Speaker 1: of over the band and the fame and all of it.
Speaker 1: And I can see a time where people, especially like
Speaker 1: if this was totally he totally could have faked his
Speaker 1: own death for sure, the way that this went down.
Speaker 1: But I could see you just wanting to be like,
Speaker 1: you know what, like I'm just going to fall off
Speaker 1: the face of the earth and act like I died
Speaker 1: and I'm just gonna another identity. One of the things
Speaker 1: I think I saw from the clip of the documentary
Speaker 1: was saying that his Social Security number was still active.
Speaker 1: But you know, from other stories here, I was gonna
Speaker 1: say that I was going to say, like, I'm pretty
Speaker 1: sure that we just learned that there's like hundreds of
Speaker 1: thousands of Social Security numbers that are still active. Like
Speaker 1: if he died in Paris and nobody really ever reported
Speaker 1: it to the United States, then there's a possibility that
Speaker 1: just that's all it is, and unless like someone's physically
Speaker 1: collecting off of that money and then they should easily
Speaker 1: be able to trace that as well. So whatever it's
Speaker 1: it is interesting. Are you gonna watch it?
Speaker 2: I don't know, because I watched a couple of people
Speaker 2: reviewing it that said it was like really hard to
Speaker 2: get through because it was just a lot of nonsense interviews.
Speaker 2: Because at first I was really interested. But it's three
Speaker 2: hours long, it's three one hour long episodes. I so,
Speaker 2: how did this get on Apple?
Speaker 1: If it's on Apple TV, can this just be like
Speaker 1: some guy who made this low budget or someone actually
Speaker 1: had to put money into this, because I thought that
Speaker 1: the trailer was a little like weird. It just looks
Speaker 1: like someone made it in their basement or something.
Speaker 2: He could have made it beforehand, and then after it
Speaker 2: was made, sold it to Apple to distribute. They don't
Speaker 2: always have to be involved in the beginning. But I
Speaker 2: guess my final thoughts are, let's say it is Frank
Speaker 2: person in Syracuse really is Jim Mars and he did
Speaker 2: fake his death. Just leave him alone. He clearly did
Speaker 2: it for a reason and he wanted to start over.
Speaker 2: Just let him be and let him live the rest
Speaker 2: of his life. He's old.
Speaker 1: Just tell him to do one more concert like or something.
Speaker 1: I don't All right, let's talk about these astronauts because
Speaker 1: this is super interesting.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. So last summer we reported that these
Speaker 2: two astronauts had gone up on this Boeing Starliner capsule.
Speaker 2: Their trip was only supposed to be eight days, but
Speaker 2: of course the capsule had technical difficulties, so NASA decided
Speaker 2: they were going to hold them at the International Space
Speaker 2: Station and send the capsule back empty, just so there
Speaker 2: wasn't any risk of their life. But it has taken
Speaker 2: nine months to get them home. But finally on Tuesday night,
Speaker 2: after SpaceX went up, they retrieved them and they're back
Speaker 2: on Earth.
Speaker 1: This is so cool to me from a medical perspective
Speaker 1: because a couple years ago we went to the Kennedy
Speaker 1: Space Center NASA in Florida and we were able to
Speaker 1: have this breakfast with an astronaut thing, and it was
Speaker 1: so cool and we were able to ask them questions
Speaker 1: and I just I guess I never really thought about
Speaker 1: it up until then, about what happens to you when
Speaker 1: you go up in space. But you have to think
Speaker 1: about it that there's no gravity, so you're you know,
Speaker 1: the human body is made and designed to live on
Speaker 1: Earth and with our environment. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: different things that happen with these people when they come
Speaker 1: back to Earth because they think about this, like if
Speaker 1: you're floating for a while, you're just you're not staying
Speaker 1: on the ground. You almost lose your ability to walk,
Speaker 1: Your muscles waste away your bone density lessons because you're
Speaker 1: not using them to keep yourself on the ground and
Speaker 1: to keep yourself upright. And so when these people come back,
Speaker 1: even if you're only there for a few weeks, when
Speaker 1: you come back, you have to go through this whole
Speaker 1: intensive physical therapy thing to get back to walking normal,
Speaker 1: which is why they were taking them out on stretchers essentially,
Speaker 1: because those people would fall right to the ground. And
Speaker 1: it's crazy to think that you're in your sixties or
Speaker 1: something and you would have to relearn how to walk again.
Speaker 1: But it's the same thing. Think about when you ride
Speaker 1: a bike. It's very simple. If you know how to
Speaker 1: ride a bike, you just get on it. But before
Speaker 1: you know how to ride a bike, it's just like
Speaker 1: you have to learn how to use your muscles in
Speaker 1: a certain way to keep the bike up right in
Speaker 1: order from falling down. And it's kind of just like
Speaker 1: what babies have to do when they start walking. So
Speaker 1: you have to do that again as an astronaut, which
Speaker 1: is it's kind of cool to think about that. That's
Speaker 1: they're dealing with all these medical issues on top of god,
Speaker 1: the psychological issues. I can't even imagine.
Speaker 2: No, I mean, it must have been really terrified. I
Speaker 2: feel like in some regard they have to be prepared
Speaker 2: that their trip is not going to be the length
Speaker 2: it's intended to be, and there could be issues, of course,
Speaker 2: but going from eight days to nine months is extremely long. So,
Speaker 2: like you're saying, now, they have to enter this forty
Speaker 2: five day rehab program to get basically learn how to
Speaker 2: walk again and just make sure they're okay to just
Speaker 2: going back to being normal people. It's nuts.
Speaker 1: There's also so many other things that happen to the body.
Speaker 1: There could be like cardiovascular effects. And it's another interesting
Speaker 1: thing too, is with gravity. So when you're standing on
Speaker 1: the ground, your fluid is in your body is equally
Speaker 1: distributed from your head to your toes, but when you
Speaker 1: have no gravity, it all kind of goes up towards
Speaker 1: your head. So most astronauts that go up into space
Speaker 1: have problems with this and they get what's called spaceflight
Speaker 1: associated neuroocular syndrome, which is they get a lot of
Speaker 1: swelling around their eyes, but they can get changes in
Speaker 1: the pressure in their head. I imagine they get terrible headaches,
Speaker 1: they're not able to see well. So that's also something
Speaker 1: that you know as soon as you come back to Earth,
Speaker 1: it's like all the fluid goes back down, so then
Speaker 1: the people might experience dizziness. And it's just like a
Speaker 1: wild thing to even think about that and experience because
Speaker 1: there's not many humans in the world that experience these
Speaker 1: medical symptoms.
Speaker 2: No, it is really cool. And did you see when
Speaker 2: their capsule landed in the ocean there is like all
Speaker 2: these dolphins surrounding it checking it out.
Speaker 1: Listen that video like looks.
Speaker 2: Fake to me? Did you see it?
Speaker 1: Like they No, you need to watch it because you're
Speaker 1: just like, this is like it has to be AI
Speaker 1: enhanced or something like it just doesn't even look real.
Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because the situation is just unusual,
Speaker 1: but you're looking at it and you're like, what's happening
Speaker 1: here right now?
Speaker 2: Like maybe you're just a space truther.
Speaker 1: So I don't realize I'm becoming a space truther, honestly,
Speaker 1: Like the more and more I think about it, and
Speaker 1: I started really thinking about it when I really did
Speaker 1: a deep dive into the chap Equittic situation. That was
Speaker 1: a couple years ago. When I went there and I
Speaker 1: was like so intrigued with the Ted Kennedy chap Equittic thing.
Speaker 1: I wrote up a celebrity death dissection or a well,
Speaker 1: I guess it would be considered a high profile death
Speaker 1: disseection in the Gross Room about it and that that
Speaker 1: happened like a day or two before they announced the
Speaker 1: man walked on the moon and he was supposed to
Speaker 1: run for president. It's just like the whole thing was
Speaker 1: so weird. And then I'm thinking, like, this is just
Speaker 1: the videos are really terrible and you look at it
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh god, this is kind of doesn't
Speaker 1: look like what they told this it was.
Speaker 2: There's a really funny movie that came out last year
Speaker 2: called fly Me to the Moon with Scarlett Johansson and
Speaker 2: Channing Tatum and they are making like the movie set
Speaker 2: for the moon landing, and it's just like this whole
Speaker 2: like does it look exactly like the moon landing? Like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you should watch it because it's pretty funny about like
Speaker 2: the jokes about it and up being top secret evidence,
Speaker 2: and yeah, you should definitely watch it. It's pretty Just.
Speaker 1: Watch the video of this if it's the like, I've
Speaker 1: just seen it a couple of times and it's just
Speaker 1: like it's just bizarre.
Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by the Gross Room. Guys.
Speaker 1: The Gross Room is on sale for only twenty dollars
Speaker 1: for the whole entire year, So that's for three hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty five days of what I call gross gross
Speaker 1: pathology means looking at pathology with the naked eye, but
Speaker 1: gross also implies that it is definitely a little gory,
Speaker 1: way too gory for Instagram for sure. We have so
Speaker 1: many cases. I am actually thinking that we might do
Speaker 1: a celebrity death disseection on Jim Morrison at this point
Speaker 1: because we need to like do a deeper dive into
Speaker 1: that story. And it's odd that we haven't covered that yet,
Speaker 1: but I think that that might be a good story
Speaker 1: to do. But this week we're starting we were working
Speaker 1: on a two part Ruby Frank one which is really
Speaker 1: really interesting. Next week we are going to be working
Speaker 1: on a case of mistaken identity, unless, of course, I
Speaker 1: tell you guys all the time, there's any breaking celebrity desks,
Speaker 1: then we'll definitely do that first. We have just so
Speaker 1: many different cases. We have the Karen Reid trial with
Speaker 1: John O'Keeffe and we're going to be talking about that
Speaker 1: in our next story. Actually, So that's a really interesting
Speaker 1: two part to section that you guys might want to
Speaker 1: read Yeah, head over to the growth room dot com
Speaker 1: now to sign up. Okay, So, speaking of the John
Speaker 1: O'Keeffe and Karen Reid situation, last night, word came out
Speaker 1: that the trooper that was associated with this case has
Speaker 1: finally been let go.
Speaker 2: Well, he was the lead investigator, so like he was
Speaker 2: more than just a cop involved in the sidelines. He
Speaker 2: was a major player.
Speaker 1: And I just don't understand, like this whatever happened, accident, murder,
Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it, happened in January of
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, and it took almost three whole years
Speaker 1: to finally let this guy go.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't even think so this trooper
Speaker 2: Michael Proctor. Oh my god. So there. I don't know
Speaker 2: if historically you know this, but in the Salem witch
Speaker 2: trials there was a person killed named John Proctor, and
Speaker 2: then with the victim's name, well I'm wondering if they
Speaker 2: are related since it's in the same area, but with
Speaker 2: the victim's name being John O'Keeffe and his name being
Speaker 2: Michael Proctor, Like, my brain just has a really hard
Speaker 2: time with this. But anyway, after Karen Reid's mistrial a
Speaker 2: couple of months ago, trooper Michael Proctor had been suspended
Speaker 2: without pay while they did an investigation because during her
Speaker 2: trial all these really inappropriate text messages popped up where
Speaker 2: he was calling her a whack job. He said he
Speaker 2: hoped she killed herself. There was even, you know, this
Speaker 2: part where he said he was looking through her phone
Speaker 2: and he hadn't come across any nude shit. So obviously
Speaker 2: that's concerning when it's a police officer and made investigating
Speaker 2: a possible homicide. But I don't know, it seems like
Speaker 2: he had all this other misconduct and the Massachusetts State
Speaker 2: Police decided to suspend him and do an investigation, and
Speaker 2: after their investigation, they decided to officially fire him.
Speaker 1: So isn't it interesting that a couple weeks ago the
Speaker 1: federal government, who was also investigating this investigation, had said
Speaker 1: that they closed their investigation, and now this comes out
Speaker 1: a couple weeks later. Do you think that their investigation
Speaker 1: had anything to do with his final determination that they
Speaker 1: were going to get rid of him.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, I would say so, because I think
Speaker 2: that they do these investigations and then they present all
Speaker 2: their findings to a board and it just takes a
Speaker 2: couple of weeks to go over everything and make a determination.
Speaker 2: So they're saying, you know, well, another major problem he
Speaker 2: had was that he didn't disclose his connection to people
Speaker 2: involved in this case, which obviously is a major conflict
Speaker 2: of interest. So I think with all these other things combined,
Speaker 2: they're just like.
Speaker 1: Which is important to note, because he was apparently friends
Speaker 1: with the people where this guy's body was found on
Speaker 1: the lawn, if you remember, and we just thought it
Speaker 1: was weird in general that you find a dead body
Speaker 1: on someone's lawn and you don't even go into the
Speaker 1: house and search it to see what was happening. Like
Speaker 1: that to me was one of the biggest screw ups
Speaker 1: in the case. But of course you wouldn't search it
Speaker 1: because you're friends with the people, right. This is why,
Speaker 1: this is why there's questions with these cases because of
Speaker 1: the way they're handled improperly.
Speaker 2: So this is what the trialdboard is saying. They found
Speaker 2: him guilty of violating four department policies, which included sending
Speaker 2: the inappropriate text messages about Karen Reid, sharing sensitive information
Speaker 2: about her case with people outside law enforcement, creating an
Speaker 2: image of being biased against her, and then drinking while
Speaker 2: on duty. And connection to an unrelated cold case.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is exactly what she's being accused. All of
Speaker 1: his drinking and driving. And you know that whole culture
Speaker 1: of that whole group of friends is just like that, right.
Speaker 2: I was just gonna say that they all seemed like
Speaker 2: they had issues with drinking. I mean, they definitely shouldn't
Speaker 2: have been She one hundred percent, regardless of what you think,
Speaker 2: should not have been drinking and driving. Like I feel like,
Speaker 2: I mean, nobody should be no, but I feel like
Speaker 2: a lot in this case. This case is extremely controversial
Speaker 2: because you're like teamed police department or team Karen Reid.
Speaker 2: And I think a lot of Karen Reid supporters are
Speaker 2: also not acknowledging that she was still doing something bad.
Speaker 2: It doesn't mean she murdered him, but she still shouldn't
Speaker 2: have been drinking and driving. Now it's important to acknowledge.
Speaker 1: So I got I got a direct message from one
Speaker 1: of our listeners a few days ago, and she sends
Speaker 1: me a link to this next case we're going to
Speaker 1: talk about, and said that she was friends with these people.
Speaker 2: So, oh my god.
Speaker 1: And I wrote her back and I was like, wait,
Speaker 1: you like actually know these people and she's like, yeah.
Speaker 2: All right. So this guy at Milwaukee calls the cops
Speaker 2: and says his girlfriend's dead, and when they get there,
Speaker 2: she's obviously been dead for a while, and this scene
Speaker 2: has clearly been staged. So he admitted that he found
Speaker 2: her twenty days earlier, but said because he's from another country,
Speaker 2: he didn't know the laws here about reporting a dead body.
Speaker 1: I love that the investigators because he's from Turkey. So
Speaker 1: the investigators were like, well, how would you report this
Speaker 1: in Turkey if you live there, Like it's like, come on,
Speaker 1: that's the biggest bullshit answer, Like Turkey has accountability for
Speaker 1: you killing people as well, Like you can't just you know, like,
Speaker 1: good try though, dude.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he said he went this is what he
Speaker 2: is saying. He said he went out to go run
Speaker 2: an errand for an hour, and when he came back,
Speaker 2: the girlfriend was just covered in blood. He didn't know
Speaker 2: what happened, and then he fainted and slept next to
Speaker 2: her dead body for twenty days because he didn't know
Speaker 2: what to do, and at one point he considered taking
Speaker 2: his life, so he tried to do that with a
Speaker 2: nail gun. They did find a nail in his head.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's true that all they actually found the
Speaker 1: nail in his head that was going into his brain
Speaker 1: at the hospital, they had to remove it. So this
Speaker 1: is an interesting side note talking about the cases that
Speaker 1: we have in the gross room. If you just go
Speaker 1: in there and search nail gun, you're going to see
Speaker 1: many cases where people not only intentionally put a nail
Speaker 1: gun in their head to try to kill themselves, but
Speaker 1: also accidental cases. And you wouldn't believe how many times
Speaker 1: it actually happens when people go to the hospital and
Speaker 1: have to get a nail removed out of their head.
Speaker 1: But the imaging is just crazy that you could see
Speaker 1: it going right through the person's brain. So in this case,
Speaker 1: it was obviously like this is what you're going to do.
Speaker 1: You find this person there and twenty days dead is
Speaker 1: really disgusting. So she was probably really decomposed. And on
Speaker 1: top of that, you do the autops scene, it's just like, oh, well,
Speaker 1: how did she die exactly because we've found twelve knife
Speaker 1: wounds sharp force wounds in her body that severed multiple organs,
Speaker 1: and her cause of death was a massive bleed.
Speaker 2: Like, what's your story now, dude, Well, he still denied
Speaker 2: killing her. But he admitted he did move her body,
Speaker 2: and they're alleging that he only finally called about it
Speaker 2: because the landlord was going to be coming into the
Speaker 2: apartment to inspect it because they were getting evicted.
Speaker 1: So when they did the investigation, of course they were
Speaker 1: able to find So they found surveillance of him going
Speaker 1: to a store and buying lots of cleaning supplies. There
Speaker 1: was evidence that the scene was there was a lot
Speaker 1: of blood there, and there was evidence that someone tried
Speaker 1: to clean it up. Then they found surveillance footage of
Speaker 1: him buying an algun, which was the day after she
Speaker 1: had died. So, yeah, you're cook, dude, And I can't
Speaker 1: believe that someone that listens to our show knows these people. No,
Speaker 1: I really just like, could you imagine just knowing a couple,
Speaker 1: even knowing that their relationship may be tumultuous or whatever,
Speaker 1: and just hearing this, especially hearing someone that you know
Speaker 1: gets killed as bad, but knowing that he was like
Speaker 1: laying along her dead body for twenty days, And I
Speaker 1: just think like with a stabbing death, especially all that
Speaker 1: blood would just smell so terrible after twenty days and
Speaker 1: just be like matted into the carpet. I just it's
Speaker 1: just so, it's just so weird.
Speaker 2: Right, No, it's just very disturbing.
Speaker 1: Okay, So I was reading this deer Abby. I love
Speaker 1: the deer Abby's even though they're not technically news stories,
Speaker 1: but they are because they were.
Speaker 2: In the news this week.
Speaker 1: But this woman was saying that she had a terminal
Speaker 1: illness and she didn't know what to do about it.
Speaker 2: Well, not that well, she didn't know what to do
Speaker 2: about it, but she was also asking for advice because
Speaker 2: she doesn't want to tell her family about it. So
Speaker 2: how do you feel about that? Well, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think that her reasoning is just she said since
Speaker 1: she was thirteen she was dealing with suicidal thoughts and
Speaker 1: depression and self harm. And it's weird how it was
Speaker 1: mentioned that she said that she's dealing with an illness
Speaker 1: that can kill her, Like what does that even mean exactly?
Speaker 2: Like is it a terminal illness or is it so?
Speaker 2: Or is she just suicidal?
Speaker 1: I don't know. But she doesn't want to tell her child,
Speaker 1: her children and kids, and I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: that most people, like from a mom's perspective, I feel
Speaker 1: like if I told my kids, right, now that I
Speaker 1: was going to be dying next year. It would like
Speaker 1: ruin their life for the next year, but right, and
Speaker 1: I just wouldn't want to put that on them. But
Speaker 1: also the best I guess you would say of knowing
Speaker 1: that you're going to die is that, like you can
Speaker 1: tell your family and talk to your family every single
Speaker 1: day till that time about everything with your life and
Speaker 1: just like things that a lot of people don't get
Speaker 1: when one of their loved ones just drops dead. So
Speaker 1: I understand, like you don't want to upset your husband
Speaker 1: and child, but your your husband and children also love you,
Speaker 1: and they would probably want to support you and help you,
Speaker 1: Like before you die, be like be happy in your life.
Speaker 1: So when you finally do shut your eyes for the
Speaker 1: last time, like you know what I mean, that you
Speaker 1: feel like you were loved and you weren't dealing with
Speaker 1: all that by yourself.
Speaker 2: Well, I just think there's elements to consider with this case.
Speaker 2: She said she had something that could kill her, Like
Speaker 2: I think having a definitive terminal illness is something that's
Speaker 2: a little different because if you're dealing with something that
Speaker 2: you know you're gonna die from, I don't know, I
Speaker 2: struggle with it. I understand, but in the same breath,
Speaker 2: I think it's a little selfish because you're not giving
Speaker 2: your family the time to process your loss, even though
Speaker 2: it is your illness and you should deal with it
Speaker 2: however you see fit, but you don't want them thinking
Speaker 2: that you were suffering and they weren't doing enough to help,
Speaker 2: and then they have to live with that guilt the
Speaker 2: rest of their life. I just think it's really interesting, though.
Speaker 2: I think Abby had said you should tell them. I do.
Speaker 1: I do understand where she's coming from, though.
Speaker 2: I understand not telling the kids right away, because, like
Speaker 2: you said, you don't want to ruin their life. But
Speaker 2: the husband, I feel like you should definitely be telling
Speaker 2: because also if you are getting sick like the like
Speaker 2: Abby said, he's going to notice that you are changing
Speaker 2: and visibly dying well, And.
Speaker 1: The same could be said about kids. A lot of
Speaker 1: times you think that, like, oh, kids, you know that's
Speaker 1: I even say that with you sometimes because sometimes you'll
Speaker 1: be talking about an adult matter and one of the
Speaker 1: kids will say like, what did you mean, and you're
Speaker 1: just quick to say like, oh, nothing, don't worry about it,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, no, they can understand if you talk
Speaker 1: to them in a certain way. They could understand a
Speaker 1: lot more than we think they could understand, and they
Speaker 1: should be privy to some conversations as well as far
Speaker 1: as that likes.
Speaker 2: Kids are very very.
Speaker 1: Intuitive to know when something's off in the house, whether
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, and like, I think it's
Speaker 1: respectful to them to talk to them about it, you know.
Speaker 2: And I don't think you necessarily have to give them
Speaker 2: every detail and be like I'm dying, but you could
Speaker 2: prepare them for it by being like, I'm sick. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, you don't have to be like I might
Speaker 2: drop dead tomorrow, so get used to your time with me.
Speaker 2: But I don't know. I definitely think it's important to
Speaker 2: confide in family because also why would you want to
Speaker 2: suffer through something like that alone.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure.
Speaker 2: There's a show called The Big Sea that came out
Speaker 2: probably if fifteen years ago with Laura Lennie, and it's
Speaker 2: the same concept. I mean, it's hard.
Speaker 1: It's hard to say because you and I have never
Speaker 1: been in that situation, and until then it's like you
Speaker 1: just don't. It's the same thing with a lot of
Speaker 1: these stories that we talk about. It's just like you
Speaker 1: just don't really know like how you would react until
Speaker 1: you were in that particular situation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. All right, let's move on to questions
Speaker 2: of the Day. Every Friday at that at mother nos
Speaker 2: Death Instagram account, you guys get head to our story
Speaker 2: and ask us whatever question you want. First, have you
Speaker 2: done an autopsy on someone with more than the normal
Speaker 2: amount of organs?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: I have.
Speaker 1: In any case when you do, like somebody an autopsy
Speaker 1: on somebody that has a kidney transplant, It's it's a
Speaker 1: very interesting fact that most people don't know that when
Speaker 1: you get a kidney transplant, they leave the old kidney
Speaker 1: in there. So I've done autopsies on people with three
Speaker 1: and four kidneys. Also, you could get accessory organs, like
Speaker 1: an accessory spleen. Sometimes you could get multiple of those,
Speaker 1: So in cases like that yet, for sure, I've had
Speaker 1: that happen.
Speaker 2: Okay too. What motivated you to start educating the public
Speaker 2: with your website and YouTube?
Speaker 1: I guess it first started with doing autopsies at the hospital,
Speaker 1: and we had this conference every week which was called
Speaker 1: the Gross Conference, where we would present organs from autopsy
Speaker 1: and surgical pathology to medical residents. Medical students, surgeons attending physicians.
Speaker 1: They would come down to the Morgan we would talk
Speaker 1: about all of the interesting cases for the week, which
Speaker 1: was super cool because not only were we helping and
Speaker 1: educating them about the patients they were actually taking care of,
Speaker 1: but we were also really able to explain what we
Speaker 1: were looking at from our perspective, which is always helpful
Speaker 1: for doctors to just be very integrated in how we
Speaker 1: diagnose things. And that conference stopped happening, and that was
Speaker 1: like a huge missing piece of my life because I
Speaker 1: really enjoyed doing that. So then I decided that I
Speaker 1: was going to make a blog and just start writing
Speaker 1: about the interesting cases that I was seeing. But it
Speaker 1: was just like I was just doing it, and I
Speaker 1: was writing every single day, like all this stuff because
Speaker 1: Maria was older at that point and she didn't need
Speaker 1: like mom attention as much as like an eight year old.
Speaker 1: She knew when to go take a shower and stuff
Speaker 1: like I didn't have to be like, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean, Like, she was kind of self functioning as
Speaker 1: a teenager at that point. So I had time on
Speaker 1: my hands, and I was done college at that point,
Speaker 1: so I would come home and write for a couple
Speaker 1: hours and it was really it was really awesome, but
Speaker 1: like no, I just would think, like, how is anybody
Speaker 1: going to see my blog? And then my husband had
Speaker 1: suggested to me, I guess he was my boyfriend at
Speaker 1: the time, and he had suggested to me, like, hey,
Speaker 1: why don't you take these pictures and then just write
Speaker 1: these things for Instagram, but just make them shorter like
Speaker 1: Instagram post. And then Maria was you know, like I said,
Speaker 1: she was a teenager, she was eighteen at the time,
Speaker 1: and she helped me set up the Instagram account because
Speaker 1: I didn't, like, I'm a boomer, right, so I don't
Speaker 1: know how to I don't know how to use social media.
Speaker 1: And it kind of just went from there, like it
Speaker 1: picked up right away, like very fast after being on there.
Speaker 1: And then I just kept doing the same thing that
Speaker 1: I had been doing for years, just in a shorter format.
Speaker 2: All right, last, what's your best parenting advice?
Speaker 1: I guess just I guess I would say the best
Speaker 1: thing is just to have like an open relationship with
Speaker 1: your kids so they don't feel like they have to
Speaker 1: like hide stuff from you. I don't know, like what
Speaker 1: I mean, what do you think I think that was
Speaker 1: good with Like whenever Maria was having some kind of
Speaker 1: like difficult situations that she would always like come to
Speaker 1: me and just tell me about it, because I guess
Speaker 1: the biggest things for kids to understand is like you
Speaker 1: might be having a hard time or you might be
Speaker 1: in trouble, but you might upset me too, but like ultimately,
Speaker 1: like I'll always love you, so like I could help
Speaker 1: you more than anybody else could help you, So just
Speaker 1: don't be afraid to tell me something like.
Speaker 2: I think you had a really good balance with me,
Speaker 2: in particular with our situation of being like a good
Speaker 2: mixture of my friend and my mom, because sometimes it
Speaker 2: goes one way or the other. You know, where people
Speaker 2: are like all parent and they have like no casual
Speaker 2: relationship with their kid where they don't feel comfortable going
Speaker 2: to them, or you have the parents that are one
Speaker 2: hundred percent your friend, and then your kids are like
Speaker 2: getting into trouble because you're just letting them do whatever
Speaker 2: they want. But I think you figured out a really
Speaker 2: good balance that and I did always feel comfortable telling
Speaker 2: you everything. I mean, I still have like diarrhea of
Speaker 2: the mouth when I talk to you about yeah exactly,
Speaker 2: but it's it's it's.
Speaker 1: Better to be that way than to be hidden because then,
Speaker 1: I mean, now you're older, but with kids, little kids
Speaker 1: and teenagers especially, like it's it's like the most crucial
Speaker 1: thing ever, because that's when they can really get into
Speaker 1: trouble with major things that will affect the rest of
Speaker 1: their life.
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: I mean, I want my kids to feel comfortable calling
Speaker 1: me and saying, I'm at a party and people started
Speaker 1: doing things here that I'm not comfortable with and I
Speaker 1: want to come home, you know, like things like that,
Speaker 1: because normally a parent might freak out about that and
Speaker 1: just be like, why are you hanging out with people
Speaker 1: that do drugs and like, and you're just like, no,
Speaker 1: I want you to call me at three in the
Speaker 1: morning and I will call whatever, And like, honestly, my
Speaker 1: kids don't want to ever leave the house, So I
Speaker 1: don't even know if that's ever going to be a situation,
Speaker 1: but I you know, you never know, and I just
Speaker 1: I always want that to be a thing that they
Speaker 1: feel like they could come to me whenever they're in trouble.
Speaker 2: Well, thank god I succeeded at being a good big
Speaker 2: sister and got them hooked on the sims, Yeah, exactly,
Speaker 2: they'll never go out, all right. Well, thank you guys
Speaker 2: so much. Please leave us a five star written review
Speaker 2: on Apple and if you have a story for us,
Speaker 2: please submit it to stories at Mothernosdeath dot com or
Speaker 2: send us a message on Instagram say yeah, thank.
Speaker 1: You for listening to Mother Nos Death. As a reminder,
Speaker 1: my training is as a pathologists assistant. I have a
Speaker 1: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.
Speaker 1: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed
Speaker 1: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of
Speaker 1: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social
Speaker 1: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based
Speaker 1: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make
Speaker 1: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember
Speaker 1: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed
Speaker 1: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those
Speaker 1: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having
Speaker 1: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a
Speaker 1: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent
Speaker 1: care center, emergency room.
Speaker 2: Or hospital.
Speaker 1: Please rate, review, and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,
Speaker 1: or anywhere you get podcasts.
Speaker 2: Thanks