1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:18,400 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 3 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,240 Speaker 3: I'm Joe Wisenthal, and I'm Tracy Alloway. 4 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: Tracy, where were you in the nineties. 5 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 4: Uh, good question. I was in Chicago for a couple 6 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,280 Speaker 4: of years, like I want to say, ninety ninety one, 7 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 4: and then from like ninety one to ninety four, ninety 8 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 4: five I was in Japan, and then ninety five to 9 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 4: I guess ninety eight or ninety nine I was in Chicago. 10 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 2: I have to say, even though we've been doing this 11 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:50,639 Speaker 2: podcast together in nine years, like, there actually is quite 12 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 2: a bit that I don't know about you, And I 13 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: feel like there is a lot of as the kids 14 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 2: say these days, Tracy lore that comes out from time 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,760 Speaker 2: to time or the Tracy No, I just. 16 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 4: Walked around a lot and don't remember whenever I tell 17 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:03,680 Speaker 4: you my time periods and locations. 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,319 Speaker 2: Well, that's also okay, that's okay, that's possible. I also 19 00:01:06,319 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: moved around lot, But I have to say the nineteen nineties. 20 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:13,120 Speaker 2: So this is I'm struggling with this. The nineteen nineties, 21 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: particularly the second half of the nineties. I remember it 22 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:20,399 Speaker 2: as a period of a lot of optimism and wealth 23 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,560 Speaker 2: and harmony and peace. But the other thing is I 24 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:27,080 Speaker 2: was young and now I'm old, and I'm sort of 25 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 2: trying to reconcile this thing of like, was there was 26 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: those Were those really good nostalgia or is it just 27 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:34,959 Speaker 2: personal nostalgia from when I wasn't old. 28 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 4: I mean the answer is it's probably a mix, right, 29 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 4: But you're right, there was something kind of going on 30 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 4: in the late nineteen nineties. Actually, Joe, you'll enjoy this story. 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,399 Speaker 4: My after school job when I was in Chicago for 32 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,000 Speaker 4: a while was taking care of our next door neighbor's 33 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,120 Speaker 4: giant aquarium. And he was an early investor, apparently an 34 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 4: oracle amazing, and he spent all his money on tropical 35 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 4: fish amazing. So for one week it was my job 36 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 4: to go feed the tropical fish, and I would go 37 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 4: every day, and one by one the tropical fish started dying. 38 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 4: Oh by the end of the week there were none left. 39 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 4: And the guy came back and he was like, thanks 40 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,560 Speaker 4: for taking care of my fish. And I was so 41 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 4: worried that I was going to get in trouble for 42 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 4: ruining this guy's like multimillion dollar aquarium. But it turns 43 00:02:20,440 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 4: out he had had it installed like the week before, 44 00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 4: and they hadn't got the salt levels and the water 45 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:26,480 Speaker 4: right or something. 46 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 3: So it wasn't my fault. It was up shot. 47 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 2: I thought that was going to be like an allegory 48 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: for the dream of the dot com bubble and then 49 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 2: it all collapsing with the fish dying. 50 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,200 Speaker 4: But yeah, that's where I'm going with it. That's what 51 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:37,440 Speaker 4: it is. 52 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: So here's my memory of the nineties. You know, there 53 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,679 Speaker 2: was just it seemed like there weren't many wars happening. 54 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,239 Speaker 2: And of course that feeling ended very quickly not long 55 00:02:45,280 --> 00:02:48,640 Speaker 2: after with September eleventh. But the other thing I have 56 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 2: this one summer I got made two thousand dollars from 57 00:02:51,760 --> 00:02:55,320 Speaker 2: a summer job and I got into day trading and 58 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 2: I turned it into twenty thousand dollars, which was just 59 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: an insane amount of money at the time. And I 60 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 2: had this memory of walking down street somewhere and I 61 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: was thinking, Wow, we're rich now. I'm rich now, and 62 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 2: I never thought this should happen. I'm a rich person 63 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,640 Speaker 2: and my family is rich because I turned two thousand 64 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,320 Speaker 2: dollars into twenty thousand dollars. And so there was that 65 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: personal experience in retrospect, twenty thousand dollars not really rich, 66 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 2: but also in retrospect the whole thing wasn't sustainable and durable. 67 00:03:24,760 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 2: But I do remember this one specific moment feeling life 68 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 2: is really good these days. 69 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 4: So there's two things I would point out other than 70 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 4: the idea that everyone was getting rich. So number one, 71 00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 4: it was the time where we were just discovering new 72 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 4: technology without realizing how terrible it actually could be. Ye, 73 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 4: Like I remember specifically being eleven years old on AOL 74 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 4: chatting on instant messager, probably to adult men, but you know, 75 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 4: we didn't know that back then, and everything was fine. 76 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 4: Everyone was really relaxed about it. And then the other 77 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 4: thing is there seemed to be like this very the 78 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:04,400 Speaker 4: sense that like humanity could triumph over physical constraints, right, 79 00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 4: Like everything was going to be online, everything was going 80 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 4: to be software. We didn't really have to worry any 81 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 4: more about the physical world. And you know, fast forward 82 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:16,279 Speaker 4: to the post twenty twenty years that turned out not 83 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 4: to be true. 84 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 2: You know, not to just keep droning on, but it 85 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 2: was this period between the Cold War in two thousand 86 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 2: and one two and it felt like with the end 87 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 2: of Cold war, Like, okay, the questions of society and 88 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,400 Speaker 2: democracy and markets, they've been solid. 89 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 3: By the end of history. 90 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 5: Yeah, you could. Like. 91 00:04:31,440 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 2: My takeaway from that back then is like, I get 92 00:04:34,320 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 2: why people got caught up in it. 93 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 4: Anyway, Well, you and I just got caught up in 94 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 4: it because we both went on to do international relations. 95 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 3: That's right at university. 96 00:04:42,520 --> 00:04:42,880 Speaker 5: That's right. 97 00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:44,320 Speaker 3: It's not a useful degree, not. 98 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:46,479 Speaker 2: A useful degree at all. And I don't know why 99 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 2: I did. But only twenty years later in retrospect did 100 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 2: I realize why I went and majored in international relations. 101 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, yeah, because I didn't know 102 00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 2: I was living in a moment of history. In retrospect, 103 00:04:58,160 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: I realized I was living in a moment of hait 104 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: story where people thought multilateralism and all that stuff. 105 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 4: We're all products of our time. 106 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: Yes, and in a way it took me many years 107 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 2: to realize. Anyway, these days, there's multiple major wars going 108 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,800 Speaker 2: on in the country. Economic sentiment has been dismal for 109 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:19,159 Speaker 2: a long time. People are less happy than they were, 110 00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 2: I believe, despite even accounting for the nostalgia factor. So 111 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:25,479 Speaker 2: let's talk about what it was like when everyone at 112 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: least or at least a few of us felt we 113 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 2: were all rich and peaceful and happy in a permanent state. 114 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: We have the perfect guest we're going to be speaking with, 115 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,719 Speaker 2: Collect Shade. She is the author of the forthcoming book 116 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 2: Why two K, How the two thousands Became Everything? Why 117 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 2: two K is such a perfect stand in because that 118 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: was like the one thing we didn't really know what 119 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,280 Speaker 2: it was. We thought all the computers were going to 120 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 2: short circuit on January first, two thousand. It's kind of 121 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,480 Speaker 2: like an early foreboding symbol in retrospect, Collect that it 122 00:05:54,520 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 2: wouldn't all last. 123 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,839 Speaker 6: Yeah, it wouldn't all last. And actually, just to note 124 00:05:58,920 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 6: the reason that I picked the phrase Y two K 125 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 6: for the book's main title is because it's the primary 126 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,880 Speaker 6: search term that people use on nostalgia fashion resale website 127 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:13,479 Speaker 6: Oho and also on social media, So I thought that 128 00:06:13,480 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 6: it would be good for my SEO. 129 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 4: Do people actually want Y two k fashion? Because that 130 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,160 Speaker 4: worries me a little bit. 131 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 6: Oh, they sure do. I actually just spoke with the 132 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 6: Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks ago about how 133 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 6: to pull off the best Y two K look and 134 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:29,600 Speaker 6: why it's so challenging and why it's so popular right now. 135 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,280 Speaker 2: Oh, I'm I just searched y two K fashion. Oh, 136 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 2: it's bringing back the aesthetics were not that good in 137 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 2: the early two anyway, that's just subjective. 138 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 5: I don't know. 139 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 2: The kids might not know these days what to why 140 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 2: two K ment? Which there was this fear that all 141 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 2: the computers would short circuit because when software was first invented, 142 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 2: they didn't have root. Everything was just truncated to have 143 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: two digits for the years of ninety eight ninety nine. 144 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 2: People thought that then computers would revert to the year 145 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: zero and everything would melt down. But setting aside, that 146 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:02,560 Speaker 2: didn't happen, and they fixed it. Setting aside, why two 147 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: K fashion? Why did you write this book? 148 00:07:05,200 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 6: Well, that's a really good question. So I wrote this 149 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 6: book because I was sort of going through a tough 150 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 6: time in my life around twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen, twenty nineteen. 151 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 6: It was a few rough years, but things were going 152 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 6: very badly for me. And then in twenty eighteen I 153 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:28,240 Speaker 6: found this time capsule letter in my parents' house in 154 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 6: a box in their basement that I had written for 155 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 6: a millennium time capsule in nineteen ninety nine. Oh yeah, 156 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 6: and it was dated April nineteen ninety nine, and it 157 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 6: was for school because our elementary school made a time capsule. 158 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 6: And I guess what we had been assigned to do 159 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 6: is we'd been assigned a particular year to predict. And 160 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 6: the year I had to predict was two thousand and eight. 161 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: What did you say? What happened in two thousand and. 162 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: Men would crash? 163 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:03,480 Speaker 4: How's it would be these complex financial instruments called CEOs, 164 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 4: And now what did you say? What were your expectations? 165 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: Well? 166 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:10,520 Speaker 6: First I said I would be a junior at Stanford University. 167 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 6: That didn't happen. Then I said that we would cure 168 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 6: all cancer. I mean, you know, there have been a 169 00:08:17,960 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 6: lot of innovations in the past twenty five years, but 170 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:24,440 Speaker 6: I can't say we've cured all of it. And I 171 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 6: also said that we would be watching our we would 172 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:31,600 Speaker 6: be watching our movies on the computer, which you were 173 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 6: right about. 174 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: You got that right. 175 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 1: Three. 176 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 3: It's pretty good, not terrible. 177 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 4: In high school, I decided to start a DVD collection 178 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 4: because I thought I was going to have DVDs forever, 179 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 4: and so, you know, I'm going to get started early 180 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 4: and have this awesome library of videos. And that lasted 181 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 4: for like a couple of years before streaming became a thing, 182 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:51,319 Speaker 4: So you were way ahead of me. 183 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 2: Remember the DVD bros. 184 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 5: I mean you were. 185 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was like that was a type of guys 186 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 2: like has a really good TV? 187 00:08:58,120 --> 00:08:58,880 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, no, it was. 188 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:01,959 Speaker 6: It was a total data symbol, especially once you got 189 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,160 Speaker 6: to like the early to mid two thousands. People would 190 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 6: collect them and it would be like, oh, this person 191 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 6: has forty DVDs wow, or this. 192 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, come over to my house and watch Clerks because 193 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 2: I feel like a DVD broth. 194 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: And then. 195 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 6: Fall asleep and then the DVD intro menu is playing 196 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 6: and then you wake up in the middle of the 197 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 6: night and it's just on a loop. Yeah, and you're confused. 198 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: There was this amazing website. I don't know if either 199 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: of you remember it. It was called you Fell Asleep watching 200 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,280 Speaker 2: a DVD? Do any of you remember that? And it 201 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 2: would just be this website that just had It was 202 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 2: a picture of a living room and then there was 203 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 2: a TV in there and it was floating that sort 204 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 2: of DVD menu at the end. It was very peaceful website. 205 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: I wonder if it still still exists. 206 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 6: Looking for it, Yeah, I really want to see that now. 207 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,000 Speaker 4: But this actually reminds me, and Joe's made this point before, 208 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 4: which is the sort of late nineteen nineties, maybe early 209 00:09:57,400 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 4: two thousands, before the bubble burst time period was really 210 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 4: a period of like, in some respects insane optimism about 211 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 4: what humans would be achieving in like the coming years. 212 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 4: And I think even now, obviously there's a lot of 213 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 4: excitement in the stock market about things like AI and 214 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 4: what that's going to be able to do, but even 215 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 4: now it's still tinged with some degree of skepticism, some 216 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,720 Speaker 4: degree of worry over what's going to happen to jobs 217 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 4: and things like that, Whereas around like two thousand that 218 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 4: just wasn't there. It was like we were really looking 219 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 4: at this nirvana like future. 220 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 6: Yeah, And I think that that's a really good term nirvana, 221 00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,960 Speaker 6: which I can get to a little later. Talking about 222 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 6: the culture of Silicon Valley, there were some really strange 223 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 6: things that I found in my reporting in my research 224 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 6: for this book. So to be clear, I started researching 225 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 6: the book in I mean, I really started around the 226 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 6: time I found that letter, and I was getting very 227 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 6: into these nostalgia accounts on Instagram and watch all these 228 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:02,959 Speaker 6: old movies and listening to old music and all that 229 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 6: sort of thing, and then I signed the contract for 230 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 6: the book in twenty twenty two because I was like, well, 231 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 6: I'm totally obsessed with this thing. I'd like to write 232 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,880 Speaker 6: a book about it. And so one of the things 233 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 6: that I found were really odd quotes from really respected figures. 234 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 6: So an example would be there was an MIT economist 235 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 6: in nineteen ninety eight who said, we will never have 236 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:36,559 Speaker 6: another recession again. The economy will keep going up forever. 237 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 6: And then here's the really interesting thing that he said. 238 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,880 Speaker 6: He said, we don't want one, we don't need one, 239 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 6: and we have the tools to prevent one. So it's 240 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 6: almost as if the laws. 241 00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 4: Of the previous generations were too stupid to do not 242 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 4: want one. 243 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 6: Yes, it was quite a lot of hubris, right, if 244 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 6: they had only changed how things worked in their mind differently, 245 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 6: than they could have easily avoided all of those other 246 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 6: depressions and recessions. 247 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 2: I kind of still think that's the case. I kind 248 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: of still think, but sitting as that human nations, and 249 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: there is probably some human nature is cyclical, and we 250 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 2: were wrong to think it would be permanent piece and 251 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 2: expansion forever. So here's I guess another way of entering. 252 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 2: I mentioned my epiphany that at some point in like 253 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: nineteen nine and nine, I was like, everyone is rich 254 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 2: in life is great? 255 00:12:25,040 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 6: Was that rare? 256 00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: We're a lot of people in those years having personal 257 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 2: feelings of that. Talk to us about again, not everyone 258 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:35,959 Speaker 2: remembers it. How widespread was this feeling of abundance and 259 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 2: wealth that the general population. Obviously there were exceptions, there 260 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 2: were poor people, obviously, But how widespread was were these 261 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 2: feelings of wealth and so forth? 262 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 6: I mean, they were extremely widespread. So on a sort 263 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:52,319 Speaker 6: of macro level, you have these big figures like this 264 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:55,000 Speaker 6: MIT economist saying we're never going to have another recession. 265 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 5: You have a book that. 266 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 6: Comes out in nineteen ninety nine called Dow thirty six thousand, 267 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 6: which I know that number doesn't sound impressive now, but 268 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 6: at the time, the Dow had just hit ten thousand, 269 00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 6: and that was a really big deal. And that was like, 270 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:14,000 Speaker 6: by the way, that was like practically a holiday. One 271 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:17,920 Speaker 6: of the chairmen of the New York Stock Exchange and 272 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 6: Rudy Giuliani, who's at the time the New York City Mayor, 273 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 6: wore special hats that said Dow ten thousand, and they 274 00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:26,320 Speaker 6: rang the closing Bell in March March nineteen ninety nine. 275 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 6: But yeah, there's this book called Dow thirty six thousand, 276 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 6: which argued that you could basically expect like three hundred 277 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 6: percent returns on your investments in the next three to 278 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 6: five years. And that is kind of crazy that that 279 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 6: was out there. And if you see movies also like 280 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 6: to move away from kind of the nuts and bolts, 281 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 6: there was this feeling of, oh, everything's really great. Yeah, Oh, 282 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 6: isn't it sad? 283 00:13:58,480 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 5: Oh? 284 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,240 Speaker 6: You know American Beauty, which is a movie, you know, 285 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,839 Speaker 6: big award winning movie nineteen ninety nine. It's all about how, oh, 286 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 6: we're all so affluent now and there aren't any problems. 287 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 5: Isn't that sad? 288 00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 3: Sort of right, those sort of like suburban. 289 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 6: Urbana, which I guess you had before. But there is 290 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 6: a sort of funny thing looking at it now or 291 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 6: watching You've Got Mail or any of these movies from 292 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 6: the late nineties where it's like, what are you people 293 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 6: so upset about you? You own property, you're you know, 294 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,360 Speaker 6: your portfolio is doing great, You're gonna be fine. 295 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 4: So if you had to pinpoint like the foremost reason 296 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 4: behind this sense of optimism about the future, what do 297 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 4: you think it was looking back. 298 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 6: Well, I think the foremost reason was the dot com bubble. 299 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 3: So everyone was in fact getting rich. 300 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 6: Not Well, here's the thing, Okay, So I see culture 301 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 6: as being downstream from big forces, whether they're economic forces 302 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 6: or technology. And you know, it takes a few years. 303 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:10,240 Speaker 6: Now it's faster because we have social media, but it 304 00:15:10,280 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 6: takes a few years for it to kind of trickle 305 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 6: through the culture for the vibe of the structural things 306 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 6: that are happening to inform fashion, to inform design, music, 307 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 6: things like that. And so even if you weren't personally 308 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 6: invested in the stock market or you weren't involved in 309 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 6: the tech world, I think that the feeling just permeated culture. 310 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 6: So there are a couple of examples. So in the book, 311 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 6: I talk about this inflatable chair I have, which, by 312 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 6: the way, I. 313 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 4: Had one of those two yes. Yes, yeah, So I'll 314 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 4: just say I've read all of Collette's book, and like 315 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 4: page after page I'm just nodding, going like, yes, this 316 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,080 Speaker 4: was my experience as well. 317 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, say more about the wait, say more about this. 318 00:15:58,680 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 4: Well, mine was blue and you would inflate it and 319 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 4: sit on it, and inevitably it would eventually spring a 320 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 4: leak and you would just sort of be sitting on 321 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 4: it while it slowly like collapsed onto the floor. 322 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:11,840 Speaker 3: But they were a big deal. 323 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 6: They were a huge deal. And yeah, mine was silver. 324 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:17,960 Speaker 6: The exact same thing happened, which I write about in 325 00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 6: the book. It's kind of like the fish. It's almost 326 00:16:19,680 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 6: a perfect metaphor for the dot com bubble. But they 327 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 6: were these inflatable chairs that you sat on. Mine was silver, 328 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:30,760 Speaker 6: and I was obsessed with it because I was like, 329 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 6: this is the chair of the future. In the new millennium, 330 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 6: we will all be sitting on silver inflatable furniture. Everything's 331 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 6: going to be silver. Our clothes, our makeup. We're going 332 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 6: to have these big clear blobby IMACG three's which had 333 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 6: just come out. That was a huge Yeah you did 334 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 6: any of you? 335 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:47,320 Speaker 1: Ye? 336 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 6: Did either of you have those? 337 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 2: So I remember what year did the colorful Imax come out? 338 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:53,960 Speaker 4: That was that? 339 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 6: So that was ninety eight. They came out the first 340 00:16:56,520 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 6: in ninety eight, and then ninety nine was when they 341 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 6: had the full range. 342 00:17:00,480 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 2: Right, they were so cool on the different Yeah, and 343 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 2: they just looked cool and I just I think in 344 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,919 Speaker 2: my imagination at the time, like this is what you 345 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 2: used is if I were, like, if I're in my 346 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,760 Speaker 2: mid twenties and I work again Seattle or San Francisco 347 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 2: or New York doing something like being an editor for 348 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 2: a magazine, I would be on one of these cool computers. 349 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 2: Care more about just sort of right exactly, say more 350 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 2: about the cultural downstream of the time. What are other 351 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: things that were sort of going on in the late 352 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 2: nineties that are emblematic of this society feeling very happy 353 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:32,200 Speaker 2: and rich. 354 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 6: Well, yeah, so there's this thing called the now it's 355 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,160 Speaker 6: called the Y two K aesthetic. Broadly, there's a really 356 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 6: cool collective of archivists who catalog They're called the Consumer 357 00:17:45,560 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 6: Aesthetics Research Institute. You should totally check them out, maybe 358 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 6: have them on the show. 359 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 5: They do a lot. 360 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,879 Speaker 6: Of stuff about just design and marketing trends from the 361 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 6: late twentieth century to the present, and they and others 362 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:00,840 Speaker 6: coin this term the Y two case, which was where 363 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 6: everything was really blobby, so it was really round, There 364 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 6: weren't sharp edges, everything was very transparent, which to me, 365 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 6: when I kind of did a deep read of it, 366 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:12,400 Speaker 6: almost seemed like it was symbolizing like the Internet will 367 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:17,040 Speaker 6: bring about transparency, like political transparency, and things aren't going 368 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 6: to have sharp militaristic edges. They're going to be round 369 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 6: and blobby, right, So just imagine think about the new Beetle, 370 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 6: which was the Volkswagen Yeah, super trendy, why two K 371 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 6: car that came in all these cute colors, like kind 372 00:18:29,600 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 6: of a Parado green one that I really wanted. And 373 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,119 Speaker 6: think about that compared to the cyber truck, which is 374 00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:38,160 Speaker 6: like scary and sharp and the windows are small. 375 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:43,719 Speaker 4: You know, cyber Truck's ugly, so ugly, Sorry but it is. Okay, 376 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,239 Speaker 4: So speaking of Y two K one thing that never happened, well, 377 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,480 Speaker 4: you actually don't write in your book that much about 378 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 4: the actual Y two K moment right now? Was that 379 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 4: like a conscious choice to avoid that? 380 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 6: Well, it just didn't figure into my analysis because in 381 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 6: hind site. Okay, So, first of all, I was calling 382 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 6: it Y two K because I wanted to talk about 383 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 6: this era basically between squarely between the dot com bubble 384 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,400 Speaker 6: and the two thousand and eight crash and the culture 385 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 6: around it, as well as my own coming of age 386 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 6: which coincided with that, and I wanted to kind of 387 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 6: weave them all together to talk about these to kind 388 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 6: of situate my own memoir and coming of age within 389 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 6: this broader narrative of what was happening economically, politically, technologically, 390 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 6: et cetera. And the term that people like I said, 391 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 6: the term that people I found people using on social 392 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:35,679 Speaker 6: media is y two K. 393 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 5: So that's what I used. 394 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 6: And I think the reason I didn't include discussions of 395 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,000 Speaker 6: the y two K bug or the Y two K scare, 396 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,200 Speaker 6: I think at all was because it just in hindsight, 397 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 6: when I'm analyzing the moment, it doesn't really figure large 398 00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 6: into what the true story was. 399 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: To me. 400 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 2: I was at a New Year's Eve party on December 401 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 2: thirty first, nineteen ninety nine, and a friend of mine, 402 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 2: his dad went into the basement and turned off all 403 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 2: the power of the house, right, So we had for 404 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: a second, and I think we knew it was a joke, 405 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 2: but it was a pretty good gag because there were 406 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:10,800 Speaker 2: fears that all the power was going to go out 407 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 2: because all the utilities their software would break, et cetera. 408 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 2: It hadn't occurred to me though. You know the other 409 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 2: thing about that Volkswagen Beetle that came out in the 410 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:23,440 Speaker 2: nineteen nineties, and you know, it's cute and comparing in 411 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: contrast to the Cyberg truck aesthetic. But just to dwell 412 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 2: on this because I hadn't clicked it's really not aggressive, 413 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:32,080 Speaker 2: it's small, it's compact. We're really just sort of not 414 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 2: going to take up space. It's sort of a preemptive 415 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 2: surrender or sort of everyone agrees we're just going to 416 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: be very tidy and contained. At that time, I hadn't 417 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 2: really thought about that in terms of the core imagery 418 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: of what that meant at the time, that that was 419 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 2: aspirational to people. 420 00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 6: Yeah, it's peaceful, it's smooth, it's modern, and we're all 421 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:55,880 Speaker 6: just going to get culifish and fuel weight. 422 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:58,679 Speaker 4: But there were other cars that were popular at that 423 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 4: time that were not that small. 424 00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,840 Speaker 6: That's absolutely true, and that's something that I talk about 425 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 6: in the book as well, and I argue that, well, 426 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 6: this is a whole other this is a whole other 427 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:17,880 Speaker 6: kind of train of thought or suv of thought. But yeah, 428 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 6: SUVs started to get really popular in the early nineties, 429 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 6: and they went up. I mean there the numbers of 430 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 6: SUVs being purchased went up every year throughout it from 431 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 6: the beginning to the end of the nineties. And then 432 00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 6: I think I forget what year it's in my book. 433 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 6: I believe it was two thousand, but it's in the book. 434 00:21:36,760 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 6: So they hummer with the Hummer H two, which was 435 00:21:41,680 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 6: the opposite of the VW bug esthetic. 436 00:21:45,160 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 2: That's really interesting. I remember there was a lot of 437 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 2: sneering at SUVs in the early days. And now most 438 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 2: cars are basically SUV, right, suv of everything. 439 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 5: But in the. 440 00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,520 Speaker 2: Beginning there was I hadn't really this again, I hadn't 441 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: really thought. 442 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 4: You drive down the highway and see someone in like 443 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 4: a crazy hommer an suv and you'd be like, oh, 444 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 4: look at those selfish people polluting the world. And now 445 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 4: it's like, oh, yeah, everyone has that. 446 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: But this idea of like, okay, there were multiple forces emerging. 447 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 2: Once there's the tiny, modest VW beetle people, and then 448 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 2: the rise of the SUV people, and the SUV people won. 449 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 5: They won. 450 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,879 Speaker 6: Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I mean my dad used to call 451 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 6: those people they not the people. Well, he said, they're stupid. 452 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 6: He was like, they don't know how to read science papers, 453 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,920 Speaker 6: because he was an engineer, and I was like, well, 454 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 6: I don't know if that's the issue, but yeah, he 455 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 6: would say, oh, look there's a stupid ugly vehicle. And 456 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 6: actually the essay in the book about SUVs is called 457 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:45,919 Speaker 6: Stupid Ugly Vehicles. 458 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 4: So, speaking of essays in the book, and you have 459 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 4: one of my all time favorite chapter titles that I've 460 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 4: ever seen, which is Larry Summers Caused My Eating Disorder, 461 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:12,199 Speaker 4: which is absolutely amazing. And the chapter in case you 462 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 4: think that's a joke, it's about basically the explosion in 463 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 4: models in this sort of nineteen nineties early two thousands. 464 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 4: A lot of them came from Eastern Europe, and Larry 465 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 4: Summers sort of indirectly had a hand in the opening 466 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 4: up of Eastern Europe, in the collapse of the Soviet 467 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 4: Union and things like that. I did want to ask 468 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 4: you because we're talking about how great that period was, 469 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,919 Speaker 4: but I also remember, and I'm sure you will as well, 470 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 4: given that we're roughly the same age, but there was 471 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,840 Speaker 4: like this sort of undertone of misogyny in all of that, 472 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,040 Speaker 4: and it like, in many respects, it was not a 473 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 4: great time to be a young girl growing up in 474 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 4: that particular era. Why do you think, like, on the 475 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 4: one hand, there was this unbridled optimism, but that on 476 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 4: the other hand, girls in particular seemed to be under pressure. 477 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,639 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, that's a really good question, and I 478 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 6: do want to add that I think things got even 479 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:08,120 Speaker 6: worse after nine to eleven. You had this real reactionary shift, 480 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 6: and to go back to the suv topic, I think 481 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:18,360 Speaker 6: the suv aesthetic really that's when it really really stopped 482 00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,680 Speaker 6: being as much of a joke and it was like, okay, no, 483 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 6: this is the winning aesthetic. But yeah, like, I think 484 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 6: there also just was a general reactionary cultural turn after 485 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,760 Speaker 6: nine to eleven. But even before, as you point out, 486 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 6: there was incredible misogyny. 487 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:35,120 Speaker 5: Throughout pop culture. 488 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,760 Speaker 6: I mean, I think there are a lot of reasons 489 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 6: for that. I mean, I find Susan Fuluti's argument of 490 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:45,040 Speaker 6: backlash to be convincing, which is basically that there was 491 00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 6: widespread resentment about gains that had been made by the 492 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 6: feminist movement through the seventies and the eighties, you know, 493 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 6: and there was just this cultural like, Okay, we're done 494 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 6: with all of this. Let's you know, let's have the movie. 495 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,639 Speaker 4: Going back to the idea of nature being like cyclical. 496 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 6: Yes, yes, yes, yes, But I also think, you know, 497 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 6: and again I'm a cultural critic here, and I speak 498 00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 6: throughout the book as a cultural critic, not as an academic, 499 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,239 Speaker 6: but my kind of guess is that a lot of 500 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 6: cultural reaction and culture war stuff, whatever form that takes, 501 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 6: is kind of a proxy for economic anxiety or concerns, 502 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,159 Speaker 6: or sometimes technological anxiety or concerns. I think that the 503 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 6: reason that, say, right now, there's so much just insane 504 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 6: culture war stuff is because people are scared. People are 505 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,240 Speaker 6: scared of AI, They're scared of you know, inequality, or 506 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 6: they feel like their standard of living has declined. And 507 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 6: the thing is for a lot of Americans and people 508 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 6: in other parts of the world, but I'm you know, 509 00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,920 Speaker 6: I'm writing about America. A lot of Americans, their living 510 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 6: standard had declined even you know, basically from the late 511 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,600 Speaker 6: seventies onwards and then even through the nineties, but that 512 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 6: was not being fully reflected by these big indicators in 513 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 6: the late nineties. 514 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,239 Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned the sort of cultural shifts that 515 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 2: happened after nine to eleven, and I think there's absolutely 516 00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 2: the case in many respects. But so there are really 517 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 2: two events. I mean, there was the peak of the 518 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 2: dot com bubble, which was in March two thousand and 519 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:30,720 Speaker 2: it sort of took us a little while afterwards to realize, oh, 520 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 2: this actually has come to an end, because it could 521 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 2: have just been a blip, and you know, things kept 522 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,639 Speaker 2: going a little bit this year, and then I guess 523 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 2: eighteen months later with the September eleventh attack, and so 524 00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:45,959 Speaker 2: you have the economic bubble punctured and then the world 525 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,480 Speaker 2: peace bubble. This idea that after the Cold War, now 526 00:26:49,520 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: we have the issues of geopolitics are solved, and so 527 00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,439 Speaker 2: really there's sort of the economic story got blown to 528 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 2: bits and then the political story, or the geopolitical story 529 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 2: specifically got blown into bits, and it's sort of a 530 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:02,840 Speaker 2: real double whammy for us. 531 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 4: Huh. 532 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 6: Yeah, it wasn't great. And if you look at just 533 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,800 Speaker 6: some of the crazy stuff that was happening during that 534 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 6: second half of the Y two K era from two 535 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 6: thousand and one to two thousand and eight, I mean, 536 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 6: it's just really strange stuff. Like I talk about the 537 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,640 Speaker 6: mcbling aesthetic. Do you guys know about the mcbling aesthetic? 538 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:21,399 Speaker 3: I remember that. 539 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:22,439 Speaker 2: I'm going to google that. 540 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 5: Keep talking, So it is it. 541 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 6: This is a term again, like the Y two K aesthetic, 542 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 6: These are terms that are applied now. They weren't used 543 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:35,480 Speaker 6: at the time. But the mcbling aesthetic is think Paris Hilton, Right, 544 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 6: So you think juicy couture track suits with words on 545 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 6: the butt, ug boots, super you know, straight bleached blonde hair, 546 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:48,480 Speaker 6: super dark, fake tan, statement teas, giant Louis Vuitton logo bags, 547 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 6: and just this really just riding around in a hummer. 548 00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:56,359 Speaker 5: It was there's a real nihilism to it, almost vulgarity. 549 00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:00,400 Speaker 6: Vulgarity, right, And I think that again, to go back 550 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 6: to this hunch I have about how culture is downstream 551 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:09,879 Speaker 6: from economic forces. I interpret that as almost a this 552 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 6: is almost Freudian, but it's like a kind of Freudian 553 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 6: kind of subconscious understanding of what's going on in markets 554 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 6: with the what would become the subprime mortgage crisis. 555 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, oh that's good. Good. The aesthetic is downstream from 556 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: the emerging subprime Let's. 557 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 4: Talk about that, because all I was going to say 558 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 4: was like, I think there's a tendency nowadays to think 559 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 4: of the mcbling aesthetic as like an ironic statement. But 560 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 4: I remember at the time it was very earnest, like 561 00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 4: there was no sense of irony about wearing a juicy 562 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,120 Speaker 4: couture tracksuit and like a giant gold chain. 563 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 3: That's right. 564 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,400 Speaker 4: It was very serious, no chrucker hats. Maybe a chrucker hat. 565 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,200 Speaker 4: Paris Hilton wearing a trucker hat might have been a 566 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 4: little less serious. 567 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 6: Or the statement teased, but there was Yeah, I do 568 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 6: think that there was a seriousness about it. There was 569 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 6: a sense that it was glamour like I had a 570 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 6: couple of juicy pieces that never I never had the tracksuit, 571 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 6: but I had a couple of pieces that I got 572 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 6: at Loman's and which rip. But I just felt so glamorous. 573 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 6: I was like, look at me in my green terry 574 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 6: cloth dress. 575 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:23,640 Speaker 5: For some reason, I am I am living. 576 00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 6: It's like I could be. It's like I could be 577 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 6: on the OC or on Laguna Beach or something. I 578 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,000 Speaker 6: just felt like, this is great. You know, I did 579 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 6: the hair straightener thing. I oh god, yeah, because I 580 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 6: have you have a little wave in your hair, and 581 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:39,920 Speaker 6: I used too well. 582 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 3: My hair used to be really curly. 583 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:41,520 Speaker 1: Yeah. 584 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,719 Speaker 4: I used to relax it with like the actual chemical 585 00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 4: products that you would get from the drug store. 586 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 3: Yeap, it was bad. 587 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 6: Yeah, I feel like I can smell that. Yeah, like yeah, no, 588 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 6: But it's interesting too. 589 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: Is a downstream from the emerging subprime world, because right 590 00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 2: it's a very external Aesthetically, they can sort of anti taste. 591 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 2: There's nothing internal, and so the idea of the economy 592 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 2: is like, there's no real economic basis for it, but 593 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 2: there's this sort of presentation of rich in a way 594 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 2: that's unsustainable. 595 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,280 Speaker 6: One hundred percent. And actually I tie that in with 596 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 6: mcmanchins as well. Yeah, because like another person you should 597 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 6: have on is Kate Wagner, who does mcmanchin Hell, oh yeah, 598 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 6: but mcmanonsins are structurally unsound. 599 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 5: They are built. 600 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 6: Like I said, my dad's an engineer and he would 601 00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 6: drive me around and look at mcmanchons in suburban Virginia 602 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 6: and be like, this is bad. The architecture is terrible. 603 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:43,480 Speaker 6: It's gonna have roof problems in two years. I hate 604 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,600 Speaker 6: these things, and so I get it. I get my 605 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,760 Speaker 6: critique from him, but also just other stuff I've read 606 00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 6: about the actual architectural and structural integrity, and these are 607 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 6: garish because they you know, there's no reason to have 608 00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 6: this giant foyer that Kate Wagner calls a lawyer for 609 00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 6: where it's like, for some reason, it's like this giant 610 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 6: three story foyer with a giant fake crystal chandelier. There's 611 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 6: just no reason for that from a functional standpoint, and 612 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 6: it's really it's inefficient for heating and cooling. 613 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 5: Yeah. 614 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 6: Just these aren't even like fine luxury goods that are 615 00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:24,479 Speaker 6: well made but ostentatious. These are like fake luxury goods 616 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 6: that are ugly and tacky and are going to fall apart. 617 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 6: But it doesn't matter, because all that matters is in 618 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 6: that moment, you feel like you're a rich person even 619 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 6: though you're not. 620 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 4: So what's the through line from the tech bubble to 621 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 4: the subprime bubble, Because on the face of it, they 622 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 4: seem to have some similarities, you know, people getting rich 623 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 4: in an unsustainable way. But on the other hand, there 624 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 4: are some differences where you know, there were a lot 625 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,840 Speaker 4: of low income people who bought houses that they couldn't afford, 626 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 4: whereas I don't think there were that many people necessarily 627 00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 4: buying like tech IPOs, but I could be wrong. 628 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 6: No, no, And I think in terms of the differences 629 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:05,719 Speaker 6: between them, that's exactly it. So the dot com bubble 630 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 6: was mostly affecting you know, upper income people, you know, 631 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 6: maybe not the ultra ultra rich. You know, people who 632 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 6: were upper middle class took a hit in their portfolios 633 00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 6: or whatever. Or you know, they worked at pets dot 634 00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:20,959 Speaker 6: com and they got laid off. But yeah, it didn't 635 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 6: have the same kind of effects throughout the entire economy 636 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 6: because it was kind of contained among more affluent people, 637 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 6: whereas the subprime mortgage crisis affected people lower down, much poorer, 638 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 6: more middle class and poor people, and they, you know, 639 00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 6: they weren't just cutting back on luxuries, they were you know, 640 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:46,000 Speaker 6: cutting back on essentials, and that really had downstream effects 641 00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 6: on the entire economy at least. That's you know, that's 642 00:32:48,760 --> 00:33:15,280 Speaker 6: what I read, and I say in my book. 643 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 2: I don't want to take too dark of a turn here, 644 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:11,760 Speaker 2: but another incident that I recall there was a mass 645 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: shooting at a day trading center in Atlanta in nineteen 646 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,719 Speaker 2: ninety nine, and there were a lot of people getting 647 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: into day trading, and the day trading centers would have 648 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 2: all of these computers there because probably people didn't have 649 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: good internet setups at home. There were these early indications 650 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 2: in the summer of nineteen ninety nine that things were 651 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,720 Speaker 2: going to go off the rails, or that despite this 652 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:38,160 Speaker 2: incredible belt that was in the sort of in the 653 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 2: headlines of the newspapers and on financial TV ET cetera, 654 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 2: that there was something that couldn't hold there even before 655 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: the formal collapse in March two thousand. 656 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I think that that's I actually didn't know 657 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,520 Speaker 6: about that shooting, but yeah, I know, I think that 658 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:56,959 Speaker 6: there were there were indicators, and there were also people 659 00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,000 Speaker 6: here and there who were saying, hey, this is not sustainable. 660 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 6: I mean, even Alan Greenspan he talked about he called 661 00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 6: it irrational exuberance right in the market. So there were 662 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 6: people sort of being like, you know, this is all 663 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 6: very fun and exciting and it's this sugar rush, but 664 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,920 Speaker 6: it's not going to last the way you think it is. 665 00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 4: So writing the book and reflecting on your own experiences 666 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 4: of this time period, was it cathartic for you? 667 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:23,080 Speaker 3: What did you learn? 668 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:23,560 Speaker 1: Oh? 669 00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 6: My god, so cathartic. 670 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 671 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 6: I mean I felt like I had a lot to 672 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 6: process from that time, and I felt lucky that I 673 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 6: got to incorporate memoir elements into it because these are 674 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 6: personal essays, but they are personal essays that are structured 675 00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:46,120 Speaker 6: within a bigger historical story. And I think that when 676 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:50,799 Speaker 6: we learn how our lives that are unique to us 677 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,280 Speaker 6: are still within a bigger story of history, and these 678 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 6: forces tech forces, economic forces. I think that can be 679 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 6: really cathartic and can really give us a lot of insight, 680 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 6: like things that we think are our fault. Say, we 681 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 6: might think, oh, it wasn't right to go back to 682 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,920 Speaker 6: the Larry Summers caused my eating disorder essay. That was 683 00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 6: something I feel like I had to write because it 684 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,719 Speaker 6: was like my way of understanding why I was suffering 685 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 6: with this issue for a few years and why it 686 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 6: derailed my life in the way that it did at 687 00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 6: the time. And it wasn't just about me or oh, 688 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 6: you know I had this issue. It was that I 689 00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:39,080 Speaker 6: was picking up on currents from the bigger culture that 690 00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 6: are downstream of economic currents of sort of scarcity and 691 00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 6: managing my human capital and all of this, and so 692 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 6: it really was very cathartic or like talking about the 693 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 6: you know, when I talk about the dot com bubble, 694 00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 6: the dot com bubble really affected my family in a 695 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 6: way because my uncle was involved in a star up 696 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 6: and it really changed his fortunes. And that was a 697 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 6: very odd experience. And now doing research, I found out 698 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 6: that there were other people who had had similar experiences. 699 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 2: SayMore, I knew someone in the nineties who happened to 700 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 2: live in San Diego, and he was the first person 701 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,000 Speaker 2: who was aware of this company called Qualcom, which was 702 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 2: one of the huge winners at the time because they 703 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:26,120 Speaker 2: were going to make the chips and phones, and everyone 704 00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,399 Speaker 2: was aware of that. People in his area got made 705 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 2: a ton of money, et cetera, because they knew about 706 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,879 Speaker 2: it a little bit before the people on TV knew 707 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:36,120 Speaker 2: about it. What was that experience like to what extent 708 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 2: those people who rowed it up and then wrote it down, 709 00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 2: What did it do to them? What was it like 710 00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 2: for them on the way up and then afterwards? 711 00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:46,120 Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean on the way up, there was just 712 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:50,680 Speaker 6: this idea that well, gee, everyone can just be rich. 713 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 4: Now. 714 00:36:51,200 --> 00:36:53,280 Speaker 6: This is to go back to what we were talking 715 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 6: about earlier about how there's just this kind of surreal 716 00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,839 Speaker 6: thing of like, oh, okay, wait, suddenly I can like 717 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 6: buy a second home, or put my job at forty 718 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 6: or you know, forty five or thirty or whatever, or 719 00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 6: I can buy a new, you know, a new luxury 720 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 6: car or a private jet, or go on vacation for 721 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,359 Speaker 6: three months all over Europe or something. Right, I mean, 722 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 6: there's this Actually there's a video of Elon Musk in 723 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 6: nineteen ninety nine, and he's getting he had just sold 724 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:27,800 Speaker 6: zip to I think it was when he had just 725 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:31,840 Speaker 6: sold zip to, and so he had sold his first company. 726 00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 6: And he's getting a McLaren and this is a CNN video. 727 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,120 Speaker 6: And so he bought a McLaren, which I believe at 728 00:37:37,120 --> 00:37:39,200 Speaker 6: the time was a one million dollar car, and he 729 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,759 Speaker 6: bought himself a McLaren. And there's this video where he 730 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 6: is getting this McLaren. And keep in mind, no one 731 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,920 Speaker 6: knows who Elon Musk is at the time. This is 732 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,760 Speaker 6: when he this is actually when he got his first 733 00:37:48,760 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 6: big break, and he's like, oh, this is so surreal, 734 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 6: and he's like this kid, this like little boy who 735 00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 6: is like having his dream come true. And that's really 736 00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 6: how I think it felt for a lot of people, 737 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 6: because a lot of these people who were not all 738 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 6: mind you, but many of these people who were in 739 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,080 Speaker 6: the tech world were coming out of the California Bay 740 00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 6: Area counterculture and they were kind of maybe bohemians before 741 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 6: they were able to get into the computer world. Because 742 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,839 Speaker 6: back in the seventies, eighties, nineties, you could be It's 743 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 6: not like now where you have to go on a 744 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 6: track early in your life to get into that you 745 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:24,560 Speaker 6: could just be like, you know what, I'm tired of 746 00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 6: living in a co op and like scrounging for food. 747 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 5: I'm going to go whatever. 748 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 2: This is really important actually, and I hadn't thought about 749 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 2: this before, but right now, if you want to be 750 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 2: at tech, you know, you're probably studying like crazy while 751 00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 2: you're in high school to get into the right college 752 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,959 Speaker 2: and study you know, electrical engineering or whatever. But back 753 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:46,480 Speaker 2: then it was people who a few years earlier in 754 00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 2: their life were like counterculture hippies, yeah, and stuff like that, 755 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:50,439 Speaker 2: and like there. 756 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,480 Speaker 6: Was any some of whom were self taught. Yeah, some 757 00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,719 Speaker 6: of whom were just self taught, you know, or they 758 00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:57,360 Speaker 6: were like, gee, I'm going to go back at the 759 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 6: local community college and cakes and programming class and then 760 00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:02,799 Speaker 6: you could just go on in and get a job. 761 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:04,279 Speaker 6: I mean, it helped if you were, you know, a 762 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,000 Speaker 6: white man. But yeah, it was really it was more open. 763 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,880 Speaker 6: It wasn't like this structured thing. 764 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 5: Like it is now. 765 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,479 Speaker 4: Imagine if Elon Musk had gotten the new VW bug 766 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 4: and stuff, and how different all. 767 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 2: Of history, all of history would have changed. 768 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 4: I'm still stuck on that possibility. 769 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,080 Speaker 2: Clud Shade, Thank you so much for coming on odd 770 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,479 Speaker 2: lots and congrats and good luck on the book. 771 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:42,440 Speaker 5: Thank you, thanks for having me, Tracy. 772 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,839 Speaker 2: I really enjoyed that conversation. First of all, nostalgia, I'll 773 00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 2: take you back. But I hadn't really thought about this 774 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:52,759 Speaker 2: sort of connection between I guess just how sharp that 775 00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 2: aesthetic turn was between the late nineties and the sort 776 00:39:57,280 --> 00:39:59,959 Speaker 2: of the aggressive mcbling culture of the tooth. 777 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 5: Yeah. 778 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,200 Speaker 4: I think Colett has like put her finger on something, 779 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 4: which is there was that sense of like really unbridled 780 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:10,920 Speaker 4: optimism around that time. It wasn't like, oh, tech is cool, 781 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 4: but maybe there are going to be downsides. 782 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,400 Speaker 2: No, Like, there wasn't any of that. 783 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,480 Speaker 4: It was like, oh, yeah, let's let the kids on 784 00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 4: AOL and they can talk to whoever they want, and 785 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,600 Speaker 4: we're all going to make money and we're all going 786 00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,600 Speaker 4: to have like great new jobs in this industry and 787 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,840 Speaker 4: we'll live in McMansions, et cetera. And I think, you know, 788 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 4: maybe it was because we hadn't had a big technological 789 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 4: revolution for some time, and so people kind of had 790 00:40:35,680 --> 00:40:36,840 Speaker 4: forgotten the downsides. 791 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 3: But I think there's just. 792 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:40,919 Speaker 4: No way that you really are ever going to get 793 00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 4: that sense of optimism anytime soon, even if we invent 794 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,760 Speaker 4: like the coolest new piece of technology. I think everyone 795 00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 4: now is just so conditioned to like wait for the drop. 796 00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:57,880 Speaker 2: I think the nineties really were a unique, unrecoverable period. 797 00:40:58,040 --> 00:41:01,040 Speaker 2: And you go back and read some of the optimism 798 00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 2: the end of history stuff, and you guys like, oh, 799 00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:05,799 Speaker 2: that's you know, how could they? But I've tried to 800 00:41:06,080 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 2: do this experiment baarment in my head a bit, and 801 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 2: it's like, I get it. I get what they saw, 802 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 2: or I get why they thought that to some extent, 803 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 2: certain core problems of human civilization, whether we're talking about 804 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 2: world peace, whether we're talking about economics specifically, kind of 805 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 2: had been solved. Like, I don't blame them much for it. 806 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,240 Speaker 2: Obviously a lot of the optimism in retrospect seems silly. 807 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 2: We got nine to eleven, we got the Great Financial Crisis, 808 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 2: we had the Iraq War, the Afghanistan War, multiple wars now, 809 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 2: But I get why in that brief period of time 810 00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,200 Speaker 2: they sort of didn't see it coming. Should we even 811 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:43,200 Speaker 2: if they should, even if. 812 00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 4: They should have, Should we re embrace the Y two 813 00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:46,360 Speaker 4: K aesthetic? 814 00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:48,640 Speaker 2: You know what, I don't like it. 815 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 3: You don't like it. 816 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,600 Speaker 2: I don't know like there's some you know. Sometimes I'm 817 00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,440 Speaker 2: walking through the park and I see kids wearing stuff 818 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:57,759 Speaker 2: that I could have worn in high school, and it 819 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 2: filled warms my heart a little bit. I don't really 820 00:42:00,960 --> 00:42:01,640 Speaker 2: like it that much. 821 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 4: I don't know. 822 00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 3: I'm gonna find my my low rise geek. 823 00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:05,399 Speaker 2: Actually pretty bad. 824 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:06,880 Speaker 3: Start wearing those into the office. 825 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:07,759 Speaker 2: Actually pretty bad. 826 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 3: It's not that bad. You're crazy, all right? Shall we 827 00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 3: leave it there? 828 00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:12,399 Speaker 2: Let's leave it there. 829 00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,439 Speaker 4: This has been another episode of the Authoughts podcast. I'm 830 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,200 Speaker 4: Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 831 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,239 Speaker 2: And I'm Jill Wisenthal. You can follow me at the Stalwart. 832 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 2: Follow our guest Collect Shade at Missshade and check out 833 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,560 Speaker 2: her new book Y two K. Follow our producers Kerman 834 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,600 Speaker 2: Rodriguez at Kerman armand dash O Bennett at Dashbot and 835 00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 2: Kilbrooks at Kilbrooks. Thank you to our producer Moses Ondam. 836 00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:37,960 Speaker 2: From our Oddlogs content, go to bloomberg dot com slash 837 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:40,480 Speaker 2: odd Lots. We have transcripts of blog and a newsletter 838 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:42,680 Speaker 2: and you can chat about all of these topics twenty 839 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 2: four to seven in our discord Discord dot gg, slash odd. 840 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 4: Lots and if you enjoy adlots, if you like it 841 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 4: when we take these nostalgic tours back in time, then 842 00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 4: please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. 843 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,759 Speaker 4: And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can 844 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 4: listen to all of our episode sodes absolutely ad free. 845 00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:04,400 Speaker 4: All you need to do is connect your Bloomberg account 846 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,200 Speaker 4: with Apple Podcasts. In order to do that, just find 847 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,680 Speaker 4: the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. 848 00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening.