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Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with tech Stuff from how

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Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Hey there, and welcome to tech Stuff.

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Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer with

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Speaker 1: How Stuff Works, and I heart radio and I love

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Speaker 1: of all things tech. And you are about to listen

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Speaker 1: to a classic interview episode of tech Stuff that was

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Speaker 1: originally published on April twenty, two thousand twelve. In this interview,

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Speaker 1: we get to talk to one of my friends, Brian Brushwood.

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Speaker 1: Professional magician, techno wizard, you might say, and overall rogue.

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Speaker 1: The guy has gone on to do numerous super cool things,

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Speaker 1: including appearing on Penn and Teller Show and lots of

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Speaker 1: other really awesome stuff. And this was a chance for

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Speaker 1: us to chat with him way back in And uh,

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Speaker 1: it's great to hear him again because I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't run into him very much. He lives out in Texas,

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Speaker 1: so I don't get a chance to see him very frequently.

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Speaker 1: But enjoy this episode of tech Stuff conjures up Brian Brushwood. Brian,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being on our show. Dude,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for having me And we know

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Speaker 1: we've talked about this for months. I'm glad we finally

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Speaker 1: made it happen. Yeah, Brushwood and I are we're like

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Speaker 1: BFFs from way back. Yeah, we're rooms. That's true. That's true.

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Speaker 1: And so yeah, Brushwood is a he's he's he's an amazing,

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Speaker 1: amazing kind of guy. One of the nicest guys you

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Speaker 1: guys could ever meet. I really do mean that, Mr Brushwood.

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Speaker 1: You gotta ruin my reputations about this, alright. He's he's

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Speaker 1: also a complete jerk. No. Now, so we wanted to

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Speaker 1: talk today about lots of different topics. But before we

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Speaker 1: get started, in your own words, can we get sort

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Speaker 1: of a kind of a minute long or two minute

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Speaker 1: long bio of who you are? How got interested in

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Speaker 1: stage magic and technology and all that kind of good stuff. Sure, man,

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Speaker 1: it's really weird. I'm in a transition phase right now

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Speaker 1: because if you'd asked me five years ago, the answer

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Speaker 1: would have been dead simple. I would have told you

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Speaker 1: I am a touring stage magician who tours colleges doing

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Speaker 1: a punk rock magic show with fire eating escapes, mind reading.

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Speaker 1: I stick a nail and one eye pops out, the

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Speaker 1: other eye, I break thirty pound breaks over my head. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And it was And that's that's all I did. But

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Speaker 1: as I've transitioned, we launched Scam School. I pitched it

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Speaker 1: five years ago right around this time, and now it's

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Speaker 1: four years strong, two twenty episodes, and now I'm hosting

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Speaker 1: four other podcasts as well, but I'm still doing the

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Speaker 1: live stage shows. So my identity, my identity is kind

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Speaker 1: of in transition right now as I as I do

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Speaker 1: more performing in front of the camera instead of in

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Speaker 1: front of audiences. And now it's even more complicated since uh,

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Speaker 1: we just launched the Scam School Book, which hit number

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Speaker 1: one in Canada number three in the US on the

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Speaker 1: iTunes store on the day of launch. So now I

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Speaker 1: guess throw author in the mix as well. How about that?

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Speaker 1: Huge props to you and that's awesome and uh, you're

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Speaker 1: also the Scam School Show has also been featured on

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Speaker 1: Discovery dot Com. Yeah, they apparently, and it was the

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Speaker 1: awesomest thing because I guess Discovery dot Com had been

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Speaker 1: talking with Revision three and they were talking about some

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Speaker 1: kind of partnership for a while, but since nothing was confirmed,

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Speaker 1: nobody at Revision three really told me because you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like they didn't want to tell me if there

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Speaker 1: was nothing to tell, but I guess within minutes of

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Speaker 1: the deal being finalized, Discovery dot Com through the first

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Speaker 1: episode up under their life section, and so I found

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Speaker 1: out about it because somebody on Twitter was like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: were you just not gonna tell us that you joined

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Speaker 1: Discovery dot Com? And I'm like, what, So take a look,

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Speaker 1: and sure enough, there it is and it seems to

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Speaker 1: be very well received. I'm excited about it. That's fantastic. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And and as a you know, as a friend and fan,

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Speaker 1: I was very pleased to see that join our our

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Speaker 1: family here, and it was a it was a surprise

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Speaker 1: to me as well. I had not I had no

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Speaker 1: knowledge of any sort of Revision three work at that point,

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Speaker 1: but it was very pleased to see you brought on board.

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Speaker 1: Anytime I can see talented people who who are good

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Speaker 1: at at at entertaining and informing, that's always a pleasure. Uh.

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Speaker 1: So we wanted to talk a little bit today about

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Speaker 1: the fact that since you have an extensive experience being

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Speaker 1: a stage magician, uh that kind of gets your perspective

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Speaker 1: on how stage magic has changed over the years and

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Speaker 1: how the role of technology has sort of played a

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Speaker 1: part in that, and that just get an idea of

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Speaker 1: what's important when you're a stage magician. Yeah, absolutely, I

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Speaker 1: mean I would say as as far back as you look,

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Speaker 1: there's been a very tight relationship between technology and magic.

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Speaker 1: And uh, what's the Arthur's C. Clark quote from Childhood's End.

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Speaker 1: He says, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

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Speaker 1: is one of our favorites. Yeah. No, and then the

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Speaker 1: magicians love that quote because it makes us sound important.

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Speaker 1: But the but you know, you look back, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like every time there's a novel new tech knowledgy, uh,

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Speaker 1: there is a magician to either exploit it secretly in

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Speaker 1: a stage show or to make it integral to his

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Speaker 1: stage performance. You know. You go back, you know you've

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Speaker 1: got Jean Eugene Robert Houdon uh doing doing bullet catches,

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Speaker 1: you know, and this is in the nineteenth century when

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Speaker 1: they're still using a musket type rifles. You got uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, Penn and Teller doing doing cell phone tricks,

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Speaker 1: you know. And of course I I do an illusion

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Speaker 1: in my stage show now where I make a ghost

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Speaker 1: appear on everyone's cell phone in the audience. And there's

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Speaker 1: something about the novelty of new technology that that puts

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Speaker 1: a finger in that same part of the brain that

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Speaker 1: good sleight of hand does where it's just it's just

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Speaker 1: incomprehensible and you can't even understand how that's possible. That's yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's really cool. I'm uh, you know, not to not

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Speaker 1: to pull back the veil too much from from the

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Speaker 1: whole magic thing, but go ahead, pull it back in

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Speaker 1: the back here in the bidz uh. You know, we

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Speaker 1: might refer to certain certain types of technology specifically made

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Speaker 1: for stage magic, often referred to as as gimmicks, a

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Speaker 1: gimmick that you use in order to pull off a trick.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's an interesting thing that I see

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Speaker 1: with a lot of people who just start off in magic.

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Speaker 1: The beginners often, I think, place more stock in a

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Speaker 1: gimmick than they do necessarily in stage presentation. And I'm

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Speaker 1: curious as to what your view is on that. What

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Speaker 1: do you think is the most important tool in any

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Speaker 1: stage magician's toolbox? Us, Yeah, you nailed it right on

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Speaker 1: the head. When I first started in magic, I was

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Speaker 1: what eighteen years old, and wandered into a magic shop

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas that was run out of the garage

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Speaker 1: of one of the local magicians, and since I didn't

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Speaker 1: have a car at university, I had to take two

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Speaker 1: different buses. It took me a forty five minutes just

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Speaker 1: to go the eight miles to get there. And uh,

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Speaker 1: this guy talked to me for like the three hours straight.

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Speaker 1: I just had my mind blown because I picked magic

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Speaker 1: just out of the blue as as a hobby to try,

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Speaker 1: and I didn't really know much about it. But one

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Speaker 1: of the things he told me that really stuck with

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Speaker 1: me is like when when people first start doing magic,

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Speaker 1: they always want the self working, no fail gimmicks. They

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Speaker 1: want they want the tricky deck of cards to force

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Speaker 1: someone a card rather than relying on slide of hand,

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Speaker 1: because you know, it's a confidence booster and it's something

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Speaker 1: that always works. But then there's some kind of guilt

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Speaker 1: that builds in you. It makes you think, like, I'm

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Speaker 1: not really a magician. I should be doing everything with

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Speaker 1: a real deck of cards. And you learn how to

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Speaker 1: do these these fancy forces or these flourishes, or you know,

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Speaker 1: turn over one card so it looks like a different card,

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Speaker 1: and then after a while, once you have that down,

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Speaker 1: you get lazy and say, why am I doing all

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Speaker 1: this extra work? When the one who notices the difference,

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Speaker 1: and then you go back to using gimmicks. So it's

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Speaker 1: like pendulum. Yeah it is, but but but you come

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Speaker 1: out the other side because it's one of those once

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Speaker 1: you get enough flight time, you build an engaging presentation.

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Speaker 1: And I'll tell you that's the biggest I don't want

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Speaker 1: to say betrayal, that's the biggest confusion that people have.

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Speaker 1: A lot of folks get into magic in their fourteen

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Speaker 1: and hitting puberty because they feel powerless and they want

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Speaker 1: a way to get other people to be interested in

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Speaker 1: something they're doing, and so they follow the script the

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Speaker 1: way it's written, They do the moves the way it's written,

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Speaker 1: and either they get stuck in that rut and they

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Speaker 1: become those socially awkward people who can't relate to other

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Speaker 1: people except with the deck of cards in their hand,

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Speaker 1: or they pull through it and they realize, wow, it's

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Speaker 1: not really They'll they'll realize, like, out of everything, the

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Speaker 1: one joke they made up on the spot got a

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Speaker 1: bigger reaction than any of the prepackaged can jokes that

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Speaker 1: they had before then, and then they realized that the

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Speaker 1: magic is just that social lubricant. It's just that excuse

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Speaker 1: to start interacting with someone. And it's really it's your

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Speaker 1: personality that matters way more than anything. And you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: there are parts of Penn and Teller's show that are

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Speaker 1: utterly transparent to anyone who knows a thing or two

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Speaker 1: about magic. And yet there are some of the most important,

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Speaker 1: beautiful routines that they've ever written because they speak to

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Speaker 1: something bigger than the they're doing. Yeah, I'm always reminded

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Speaker 1: of their routine of doing the cups and balls with

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Speaker 1: the transparent cups. Yeah, and even as you're watching it,

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Speaker 1: and even as they're explaining how they do it, they're

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Speaker 1: doing it so seamlessly and so smoothly. That's so clear

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Speaker 1: that they've they've really polished that routine that it's still

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Speaker 1: feels like magic. Well, I think there's a real, uh,

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Speaker 1: there's something that we really crave in the illusion of

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Speaker 1: being educated. And I say the illusion because because by

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Speaker 1: the time that trade, ostensibly the whole purpose of that

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Speaker 1: routine is for them to teach you how to do

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Speaker 1: the cups and balls, because you see it done with

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Speaker 1: transparent cups. By the time that's over, I would I

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Speaker 1: would challenge you to a hundred thousand yen. That is

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Speaker 1: that a hundred bucks, So like that not recreate even

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Speaker 1: one phase of that routine accurately and likewise. One of

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Speaker 1: the things people seem to like most of my stage

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Speaker 1: show is I begin with this four and a half

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Speaker 1: minute illustrated history of fire eating, right explained from the

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Speaker 1: earliest references to resistance to fire to UH to the

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Speaker 1: touring UH you know stage performer Richardson in the sixteen hundreds.

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Speaker 1: I explain the progression of fire reading, and everyone's oh,

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Speaker 1: I just so educational. I learned so much, and I

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Speaker 1: was like, you cannot repeat back one fact. I gave

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Speaker 1: you that entire time. But it's that blend of feeling

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Speaker 1: like you're learning while you're seeing something visually interesting that

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Speaker 1: seems to uh, seems to sit well with people. Excellent, yeah, um,

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Speaker 1: and it's it's interesting to me on this show in

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Speaker 1: several different episodes, and Chris can can attest to this

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Speaker 1: because he had to listen to me do it just

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Speaker 1: a second ago. I stress the importance of of critical

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Speaker 1: thinking and really taking taking time to think things through,

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Speaker 1: because otherwise you just tend to accept stuff on a

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Speaker 1: surface level, and it becomes very easy to get tricked

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Speaker 1: into things. This is one of those things that magicians

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Speaker 1: that actually can depend upon depending on their their routines.

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Speaker 1: But but there does seem to be an interesting relationship

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Speaker 1: between people who are are who get into stage magic

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Speaker 1: and people who are advocates for critical thinking. Um. But

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Speaker 1: and I mean that all that I'll really began with Houdini.

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Speaker 1: You know, Judini was obsessed with trying to contact his

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Speaker 1: dead mother and this is at the height of spiritualism

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Speaker 1: in uh, you know, early twentieth century. But being a magician,

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Speaker 1: he was offended when he went to spiritual mediums and

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Speaker 1: saw they were using standard slide hand tricks. And yet

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Speaker 1: these people with the straight face, We're saying, no, I'm

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Speaker 1: contacting the spirit world. He's like, no, you got that palm,

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Speaker 1: you know, and he would he would call him out.

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Speaker 1: He was he was kind of he was kind of

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Speaker 1: an a hole about it, you know. Yeah, and that

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Speaker 1: tradition continues to this day well well, and and to

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Speaker 1: be honest, nobody was doing it after Houdini until James

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Speaker 1: Randy came along and back in the nineteen sixties and

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Speaker 1: started off with with I don't know if it started

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Speaker 1: with a hundred dollars out of his own pocket or

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Speaker 1: a thousand dollars out of his own pocket. But he's

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Speaker 1: always offered this, uh, this, this dollar amount challenge to

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Speaker 1: anyone who can demonstrate any psychic esp or super a

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Speaker 1: natural phenomenon under double blind test conditions. Uh And and

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Speaker 1: nobody's gotten anywhere close. And in fact the challenge is now,

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Speaker 1: of course the world famous million dollar challenge, and it

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Speaker 1: actually extends to things beyond your typical you know, the

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Speaker 1: we typically think of things like being able to move

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Speaker 1: something with your mind or prove that dowsing is real,

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Speaker 1: but it actually I've seen him extend that to uh,

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Speaker 1: to technological claims as well, for example, monster cables. There

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Speaker 1: you go, That's where I was headed. Beat me to

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Speaker 1: the punch there, And I guess it's true. I think

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Speaker 1: I've read an article recently saying that a wire co

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Speaker 1: hanger demonstrated the ability to perform just as well as

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Speaker 1: a hundred dollar monster cable. Yeah. We, as a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, talked about that on a previous podcast. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that exact same subject. Yeah, But which it's interesting to

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Speaker 1: think that it's a stage magician, someone who is skilled

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Speaker 1: in the arts of deception. Who who comes forward as

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Speaker 1: an advocate for this? And then but then again, you're

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Speaker 1: talking about the people who know these tools, because like

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Speaker 1: you were saying with Houdini, there these are the tools

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Speaker 1: of the trade, and they're seeing it being done not

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Speaker 1: for entertainment purposes, but to pull the wool over the

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Speaker 1: eyes and try and builk people out of money. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think go ahead, I was gonna say, in a way,

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Speaker 1: the people that that sell paraphernalia like that, the the

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Speaker 1: high end audio cables that work theoretically just as well

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Speaker 1: as a code hanger. They're involved in an act of

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Speaker 1: showmanship as well. Oh, certainly showmanship. And also there's there's

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Speaker 1: certain things. Um when there's a market need for something,

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Speaker 1: whether it exists or not, somebody will figure out a

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Speaker 1: way to fill it. And that's why I don't think

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Speaker 1: Marnster cables are going anywhere, is because whether or not

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Speaker 1: it's true, if you have more money than sense, you

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Speaker 1: want to believe that there's something better than the ten

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Speaker 1: dollar cable, and and Monster is gonna be there to

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Speaker 1: say yes, yes there is, and here it is. And

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Speaker 1: and the thing that really drives me crazy is you

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Speaker 1: could actually come into contact with a system that is

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Speaker 1: measurably through very very finely two instruments better than a

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Speaker 1: cheaper system. But to the human ear is indistinguishable, right,

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Speaker 1: because we're not capable of hearing that well. And and

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Speaker 1: in fact, uh, there's a man, it must have been.

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Speaker 1: It was over a decade ago that I read in

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Speaker 1: Wired magazine. I wish I could remember the name of

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Speaker 1: the audio engineer that he set up a super calibrated

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Speaker 1: sound system at one dance club and people were complaining

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Speaker 1: that it just it just wasn't loud. And meanwhile he's

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Speaker 1: looking at the decibel meter and this thing is like

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Speaker 1: almost damaging your hearing, it's so loud. So he goes

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Speaker 1: to radio shack and gets a I think it was

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Speaker 1: like cents in Peter that would that would clip the

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Speaker 1: highest end. But the the audio queue of hearing the

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Speaker 1: high ends being clipped made them think that the speakers

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Speaker 1: were maxed, and even though the volume was actually lower,

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Speaker 1: people reported how much more they liked the music, how

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Speaker 1: much louder it was. That's that now that I don't

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Speaker 1: find that hard to believe, but it is. It is

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Speaker 1: pretty amazing. It is amazing, I'll tell you, man, it's

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Speaker 1: amazing to me, what what a mystery our own minds are.

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the things, my favorite, one of

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Speaker 1: the greatest things I got to do at the University

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Speaker 1: of Texas was I was part of this honors program

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Speaker 1: where they only took a hundred and fifty students each year,

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Speaker 1: and they'd have over a thousand applicants, but you could take.

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Speaker 1: You took pretty much what they told you the first

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Speaker 1: couple of years, but the last two years you took

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Speaker 1: whatever classes were related to your thesis. You had to

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Speaker 1: have a thesis in order to graduate, and some of

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Speaker 1: the students would write their first novel, some of them

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Speaker 1: would write these two three d page biographies on obscure

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Speaker 1: figures from history. And I was doing magic on the

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Speaker 1: side at this point, and I thought, well, maybe it

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Speaker 1: would be awesome if I could get away with writing

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Speaker 1: a paper on the history of magic, because that would

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Speaker 1: be fun, or even better, if I could claim that

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Speaker 1: it was my thesis to get a trick published in

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Speaker 1: one of these magic journals, So, you know, still putting

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Speaker 1: a significant amount of work on myself, but at least

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Speaker 1: it would be fun and magic related. And when I

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Speaker 1: went into pitch, my idea to the dean. She said, well,

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Speaker 1: what do you want to do for your thesis? And

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Speaker 1: I got as far as saying, well, for the last

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Speaker 1: couple of years, I've been doing magic on the side,

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Speaker 1: And as I drew in a breath to continue, she

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Speaker 1: interrupted saying, and you want to do a magic show

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Speaker 1: as a creative writing thesis. What a great idea. And

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Speaker 1: so as it was full, I got to take whatever

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Speaker 1: courses I wanted for the last two years, as long

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Speaker 1: as I could justify being related to magic. So I

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Speaker 1: took courses on you know, on artificial intelligence, on psychology,

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Speaker 1: on history of witchcraft, on pseudoscience and the paranormal. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it was, it was amazing. But it was those courses

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Speaker 1: on brain development that really cemented in my mind what wonderful,

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Speaker 1: flawed machines we all are. And once you see, once

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Speaker 1: you spend a few years deceiving people, and even better,

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Speaker 1: hearing back from people after the fact, having them describe

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Speaker 1: to you what they think you did or what they

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Speaker 1: remember you doing, it is unreal how wrong all of

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Speaker 1: our memories are, all the time, on everything. And once

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Speaker 1: you accept that, I find I find I'm a lot

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Speaker 1: happier about everything. I don't argue anymore. Like if I

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Speaker 1: remember something happening one way and someone remembers in another way,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, whatever, I'm probably we're probably both wrong. Thing

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Speaker 1: like that. And likewise, when you look at um, you know,

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Speaker 1: eye witness testimony, you you you devalue it severely because

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Speaker 1: you understand that even if they're not intentionally lying to themselves,

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Speaker 1: they there's just no way that they can accurately remember anything.

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Speaker 1: So you're making me feel a lot more comfortable about

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Speaker 1: the fact that I offload a lot of my own

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Speaker 1: mental uh, my own mental practices onto my technology. Now, oh,

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Speaker 1: you should, you should. And in fact, I think that

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Speaker 1: we're entering an age where, unfortunately in the legal system

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Speaker 1: right now, we still are in a place where where

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Speaker 1: we value eye witness testimony far more than we should

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Speaker 1: because there's and if you've if you're familiar with the

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Speaker 1: work of Elizabeth loftus, uh, it is unreal. They've been

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Speaker 1: able to induce false memories and other people by asking

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Speaker 1: leading questions. There was one story where they took a

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Speaker 1: young kid named Chris and they laid out five stories.

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Speaker 1: Four of them were tales that actually happened to him.

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Speaker 1: One was a totally made up story about being lost

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Speaker 1: at the mall, and they asked a bunch of questions

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Speaker 1: about all five and uh, and then like two weeks

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Speaker 1: later they said, well, which of these one of these

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Speaker 1: was a made up story that never happened to you? Chris?

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Speaker 1: Which one was the one that we made up? And

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Speaker 1: he picked an actual story from his past as being

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Speaker 1: a made up one because he couldn't believe that he

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Speaker 1: wasn't lost at the mall at age five. It's kind

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Speaker 1: of like, wasn't there that story about the other the

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Speaker 1: other experiment with the showing an ad a fake ad

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Speaker 1: for some popcorn uh to some people during a thing,

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Speaker 1: and then like a survey two weeks later, they asked

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Speaker 1: them how the popcorn was, but no one in the

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Speaker 1: study had actually had any popcorn, but they all remembered

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Speaker 1: trying it and then it was delicious because of the ad.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, I haven't heard now that was that was

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Speaker 1: just I think that was in when I heard that.

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Speaker 1: I think I heard that on Skeptics Guide to the Universe. Um,

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Speaker 1: that's fantastic. Yeah. And this is why focus groups aren't

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Speaker 1: so great for marketing purpose is because the leader often

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Speaker 1: sort of steers it in the direction of the of

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Speaker 1: what the the company that has organized this focus group

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Speaker 1: is trying to achieve, like oh hey, look it works, Yeah, right,

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Speaker 1: let's go with it. Yeah, Which that's the important of

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Speaker 1: double blind experimentation, which we you know, of course they

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Speaker 1: do very very well with the with the FDA, and

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Speaker 1: for you know, new drugs. When it comes to consumer marketing,

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Speaker 1: there's probably not much of a reason to try that.

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Speaker 1: And for those out there who don't know what a

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Speaker 1: double blind test is, all right, So a blind test

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Speaker 1: means that the person who's taking the test has no

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Speaker 1: knowledge of whether or not they are in a control

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Speaker 1: group or the test group. Double blind is that the

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Speaker 1: person administering the test also does not know if that

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Speaker 1: person if they are administering a test to the control

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Speaker 1: group or to the test group, so that that it

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Speaker 1: limits the chance that data will be uh leaked to

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Speaker 1: a test subject and influence his or her results. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: That one of the earliest cases of that where it's

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Speaker 1: so important is Michelle Eugene should Rules, a French scientist

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Speaker 1: and this is back in the I believe the nineteenth

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Speaker 1: century when dowsing was super popular, and dowsing is of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, finding water with a forked stick or holding

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Speaker 1: a pendulum over a substance, and it swings one way

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Speaker 1: if it's supposed to be one thing, or swings another

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Speaker 1: way if it's another. And when he tried it, he

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Speaker 1: set out the way he tried it was, of course,

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Speaker 1: he set out a bowl of mercury, held out the pendulum,

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Speaker 1: and that things started swinging like crazy, pulled the mercury

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Speaker 1: away and it stayed totally still. Still. He was like,

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Speaker 1: holy crap, maybe there's something to this, although he didn't

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Speaker 1: say that because he was French soccerate crap, this crap.

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Speaker 1: But then he had it. But but he had the idea.

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Speaker 1: He had his assistant set up a partition and he

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Speaker 1: just held out the pendulum and the assistant would either

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Speaker 1: set down an empty bowl or a bowl filled with mercury.

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Speaker 1: And once he didn't know which which one it was,

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Speaker 1: it didn't do anything. Yeah, I know that James Randy

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Speaker 1: had suggested a similar test where it would involve burying

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Speaker 1: uh PBC pipes with water in for example, under a

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Speaker 1: certain area of land, covering it all up, and then

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Speaker 1: the person ministering the test would have no idea where

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Speaker 1: the the PBC pipe actually was they would just observe

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Speaker 1: the test subjects as they would walk across, and the

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Speaker 1: test subjects would let them know if they had found

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Speaker 1: a hit or not, and that that would be you know,

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Speaker 1: a typical, very simple double blind test, although the actual

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Speaker 1: administration would require more. But out of everybody who goes

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Speaker 1: for the James Randy million dollar Prize, the dowsers seem

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Speaker 1: to be the most intense because they truly believe what

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Speaker 1: they're doing is a science. And the reason they truly

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Speaker 1: believe it is because they have so many stories of

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Speaker 1: personal validation where they looked for water pipes behind the

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Speaker 1: wall and they found them, they looked for water at

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Speaker 1: their uncle's farm and they found it, or you know,

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Speaker 1: they look for a lost object, they find it. And

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Speaker 1: the problem is, uh, you can be right, you can

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Speaker 1: get lucky, and you can maybe you rely on your intuition,

429
00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:59,400
Speaker 1: uh and not realize you're you're doing that. So even

430
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 1: if they're and get a hit, that doesn't mean that

431
00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 1: it proves that dowsing works. It means that it proves

432
00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 1: that that either you know, one of the other things happen. Yeah, yeah,

433
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:09,879
Speaker 1: And this kind of leads us in this whole this

434
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 1: whole belief the fact that we're we we are fallible constructs,

435
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 1: you know, we we don't We make mistakes and often

436
00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 1: we don't realize we're making the mistakes, and that there

437
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,160
Speaker 1: are ways of tweaking that. That kind of leads into

438
00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,480
Speaker 1: the discussion I want to have about social engineering. Now

439
00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 1: you have your show Scam School, which has a lot

440
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: to do with social engineering. Can you explain to our

441
00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 1: listeners what is social engineering? Oh? I think the definition

442
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,840
Speaker 1: is is clinically something like, um, you know, a set

443
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: of tools designed to induce a certain response in people

444
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:46,880
Speaker 1: in certain environments. I I just claim that it's cheap,

445
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:49,440
Speaker 1: dirty psychological tricks to get people to do what you want.

446
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,199
Speaker 1: But whether it's you know, and on Scam School, we

447
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:53,919
Speaker 1: try to keep it light, so more often than not,

448
00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: were we explain the ways that you can use uh,

449
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 1: you know, magic tricks or psychological manipulation and to get

450
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,440
Speaker 1: the girl's phone number or to win free beers off

451
00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,399
Speaker 1: of your friends. Uh. But uh, one of the best

452
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 1: experiences that I got to have was, uh what three

453
00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: years ago, I got selected at south By Southwest to

454
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 1: give a keynote presentation on social engineering. Scam your Way

455
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 1: into anything or from anyone. And in the research putting

456
00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,680
Speaker 1: together on that, I read a number of books, including

457
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 1: Robert Chaldini's Influence, which is fantastic, so many amazing tidbits

458
00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: in there that are all based on you know, real

459
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: psychological surveys, stuff like um uh, there's these fixed action

460
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 1: pattern patterns, these psychological backdoors that that anyone from con

461
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 1: artists to magicians can use to to make people feel

462
00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 1: obligated to do certain things, for example reciprocation. There was

463
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 1: a Dennis Reagan did this uh fake art experiment where

464
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,280
Speaker 1: he had a group of people come in and they

465
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: were either they were assigned in twos. Now one of

466
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: them was a real experiment tee, the other was a

467
00:23:56,520 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 1: fake experimentee and they spent all day reviewing our on

468
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: the scale of one to five. I love it, I

469
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,199
Speaker 1: hated this at the other. And about halfway it was

470
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,639
Speaker 1: time to take a break, and so Mr fake tester

471
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,120
Speaker 1: goes off to the bathroom and when he comes back

472
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,959
Speaker 1: and one of two things would happen. Either he came

473
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:13,200
Speaker 1: back empty handed and they just went back to work,

474
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: or he came back with with two cokes in his

475
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,320
Speaker 1: hand and he would say, hey, I went to the

476
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: bathroom and I grabbed myself a coke, and I figured

477
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 1: I grab one for you. Here you go, enjoy a coke.

478
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: And then they go back to testing. And then at

479
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,520
Speaker 1: the very end of the day, Mr Fake tester would

480
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: in both in both groups say hey, I hate to

481
00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,720
Speaker 1: bug you about this, but we're doing this raffle for work,

482
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 1: and if if I sell enough, there's a chance I

483
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: could win a car. As many as you could buy,

484
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: the more the better. And they measured how many of

485
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 1: these of these tickets he would sell, and under reciprocation,

486
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: people bought either two or three times as much as

487
00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: they did without reciprocation. Now, some people say, like, okay,

488
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 1: well if maybe maybe when they gave him a coke,

489
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,040
Speaker 1: they liked the guy more and that's why they went

490
00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,639
Speaker 1: ahead and bought more tickets. But it turns out that

491
00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:02,240
Speaker 1: wasn't the case. Exit surveys show that even if they

492
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:07,280
Speaker 1: actively disliked the Mr Fake tester, they still bought two

493
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 1: or three times more than they would without reciprocation. Socially

494
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: impelled to buy those those tickets. Yeah, well, and it's

495
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: it's that we hate owing people anything. And there's there's

496
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: other things like a social proof. There's there's the idea

497
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: that the trappings of authority forced people to to to comply,

498
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 1: even if that that authority is just a well tailored suit.

499
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: They did studies where they measure how many people would

500
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: follow when somebody started jaywalking, and if that person was

501
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: just work wearing work clothes, they would be you know,

502
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: X number of people would start following if you started jaywalking,

503
00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: but when it was a guy in a suit, three

504
00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: times as many people would follow him. Yeah. I remember

505
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: when I was in high school. I remember seeing a

506
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 1: demonstration where I just thought it was incredibly cruel at

507
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 1: the time. It was a it was a a fast talker.

508
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: It was a guy who just spoken and jargon, meaning

509
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 1: this jargon and demonstrating how how social pressures would make

510
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: people agree to things even if they had no idea

511
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: what was being said. And I would demonstrate it by

512
00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 1: bringing someone who was unaware of the fact that he was,

513
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:17,760
Speaker 1: you know, just a flim flam guy. You know, I

514
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 1: thought that he was was introduced to him as if

515
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 1: he were an expert in a particular subject, and then

516
00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: he just started, uh having this conversation and saying that

517
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: after it was over said, well, the reason why she

518
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,440
Speaker 1: never stopped me to ask what was going on is

519
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 1: there's a social pressure on her too act like she

520
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: understands it, and you know, it would be it would

521
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,240
Speaker 1: be mortifying to admit that you don't know what what

522
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 1: someone meant when they said something to you in front

523
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 1: of a crowd of other people. Yes, well, and in fact,

524
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: that's a that's probably the biggest component of what makes

525
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: state hypnosis possible. People always ask whether or not hypnosis

526
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 1: is or real or not. It's like it's it's it's

527
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: real to the extent that you believe it's real. But

528
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 1: but the big guess factor is the ability. Like you'll

529
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: notice that most hypnosis shows begin with with very small tests,

530
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 1: and it's very clear that this is a test, Like

531
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: I'm telling you what to do, um and imagine this

532
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 1: and react as if it's real. And then he says

533
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: imagine this, imagine this, and at some point he stops

534
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: saying imagine, but instead he just says, now you're hot,

535
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: and now you start acting like you're hot because that's

536
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: what you've been doing. And then he says, now you're cold,

537
00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: and now you're fanning yourself. Are you're you're shivering because

538
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 1: you're cold. And then and then he just starts setting

539
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: up scenes and at some point you've entered this contract

540
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: where he says what to do and you acted out,

541
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,159
Speaker 1: and at some point you realize twenty minutes in that

542
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: you're committed and the only way out is to is

543
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: to ruin the show, to be like, I'm not hypnotize.

544
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: So it's like, uh, and hypnosis is real, and that

545
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 1: there's no way I could just walk up to somebody

546
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: and say, hey, get on stage and pretend to be

547
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,440
Speaker 1: Lady Gaga. There'll be like, no, absolutely not. But hypnosis

548
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: is real in that it is a construct that creates

549
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: a situation where somebody goes way outside of their comfort

550
00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 1: zone because that is a safer choice than than blowing

551
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: up and ruining the stage show. And on top of that,

552
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 1: there is I don't want to take away from stage

553
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: of Hypnotist, because there is an aspect to it where people,

554
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 1: when they vividly imagine something strong enough, it does induce

555
00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 1: a physical response. If you've ever been to a movie

556
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,400
Speaker 1: and laughter cried, you know, you're crying about a person

557
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: who never existed and a thing that never happened, but

558
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: you make it real in your mind. You know. That's

559
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: that's that's as real as hypnosis is. Well, I have

560
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,639
Speaker 1: to tell you, Brian that if you ever asked me

561
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:37,800
Speaker 1: to get up on stage and pretend to be Lady Gaga,

562
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 1: that's a pact I'm willing to make with you right

563
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 1: here and now. Good, no hypnosis necessary. You have sold sir.

564
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: We have more Brian Brushwood goodness to come, but first

565
00:28:51,440 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: let's take a quick break to thank our sponsor. The

566
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 1: reason why I wanted to bring up social engineering is

567
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: that it's not just important in things like like stage magic,

568
00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,760
Speaker 1: but also that's one of those tools that that a

569
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 1: lot of people we call hackers use in order to

570
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: get access to to secure systems, And as has nothing

571
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: to do with sitting down at a computer typing in

572
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 1: three different passwords and the third ones the one that works,

573
00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: but despite the way Hollywood would have us believe, but

574
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 1: has more frequently has something to do with befriending someone

575
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: or or opposing as a maintenance worker of some sort

576
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 1: and just engineering your way through people to get access

577
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: to secure systems, because that's way easier than trying to

578
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 1: figure out how to break through a a technological secure system. Yeah. Absolutely,

579
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 1: if you think of technology as a sealed room, I mean,

580
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: you could either try to pick that lock, or you

581
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 1: could beat down the door, or you could just ask

582
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: nicely for the person behind encounter to open it for you.

583
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 1: And obviously there's a lot of people where that last

584
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,720
Speaker 1: one works best and and the far and away. The

585
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 1: best example of this is if if you haven't read

586
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: the original book, catch me if you can, Uh, it's

587
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 1: way better. The movie was was fine, but the book

588
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: is unreal because it's actually written in the voice of

589
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:21,040
Speaker 1: Frank abcnail, very honestly talking about his exploits, you know,

590
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: over the the what two or three years that he

591
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: flew all around the world cashing over million dollars in

592
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: bogus checks. That's one where it's it's a case where

593
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 1: he realized that wearing the trappings of authority, by looking

594
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: like a doctor or looking like a pilot, he was

595
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: able to pass checks that otherwise would never pass. Muster

596
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 1: people would be like, this is obviously bogus, get out

597
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: of here, we call the cops. But but when it's

598
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: a when it's a pilot, you know, held in such

599
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,920
Speaker 1: high regard, people just shut up and cashed him. Yeah,

600
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: and Uh. Kevin mitt Nick's book to that that came

601
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 1: out recently has been uh has been doing well. And

602
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 1: I think it's the same thing as the person just

603
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 1: explaining what what he was doing at the time. Um. Also,

604
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: I just as an aside that we probably shouldn't get into.

605
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: I find it kind of amusing that we're talking about

606
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,560
Speaker 1: social engineering in an election year here in the United States.

607
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, I mean that's a boy. I mean

608
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,320
Speaker 1: you'll see, you'll see all kinds of trappings of authority.

609
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: That's why part of the reason the little things like

610
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: people can't wait to get to that level of success

611
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 1: where they can have the secret service around them, because

612
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,000
Speaker 1: that starts to reinforce the idea that this candidates important,

613
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: and it starts to reaffirmed that the trappings of authority

614
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:35,240
Speaker 1: become as important as actual authority. I'm just waiting to

615
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: reach that level of success where I can get a

616
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 1: decent table at a restaurant. That's I like to set

617
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 1: realistic goals. I'll tell you what, man, it is unreal

618
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:46,960
Speaker 1: what a little what one phone call will do in

619
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 1: front of me. My friend Dan Martin is one of

620
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 1: these guys who scams his way into upgrades left and

621
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: right and pretends to be his own manager. He he

622
00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: gives another name and says, you know, I'm the manager

623
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 1: for Daniel Martin. You've probably seen him on list a

624
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: bunch of different stuff. And of course nobody wants to

625
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: admit that they don't know who the hell damn Dan

626
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: Martin is, right, and they're they're like, oh, yes, no,

627
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: that's great, And he's like, well, listen, here's the thing.

628
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: He's got a very important client that he's trying to impress.

629
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: We understand there's an hour and a half. Wait, is

630
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 1: there any way you guys can take care of us?

631
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: And uh and and sure enough, you know, and I've

632
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: seen him do it where we we skipped an hour

633
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: long line to go to the steakhouse. We sit down

634
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 1: and then the management comes over and says, oh, thank you,

635
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 1: Mr Martin. We're so glad to have you here. I

636
00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: understand you have a celebrity guest. And without missing a beat,

637
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: he turns to my assistant at the time, Captain MG.

638
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 1: We called him, uh, this big tall guy. He's just like, yeah,

639
00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:41,600
Speaker 1: you probably you've probably seen him in the office. He's

640
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: one of the guys who works down in the in

641
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: the warehouse and instantly people are like, oh, I think

642
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: I do remember you, and a couple of because again,

643
00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 1: nobody wants to admit that they don't remember the guy.

644
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: And and Dan's whole idea is like, look, man, I'm

645
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: doing these people a favor. They're gonna go home and

646
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: talk about the celebrity time. Oh gosh, this reminds me

647
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 1: of a story my dad tells. Um So, my dad's

648
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: a science fiction author and an English professor and occasionally

649
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: would teach a stint down at the Governor's Honors Program,

650
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: which in Georgia is a program that selects I think

651
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: it's around between six hundred and seven hundred high school

652
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: students to study for a summer uh in in very

653
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,479
Speaker 1: focused groups, depending upon, you know, whatever their major is

654
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 1: for that program. I actually went in Communicative Arts, which

655
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 1: was you know, English when back in back. But before that,

656
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: my dad was teaching there in the eighties, and he

657
00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: tells a story about how he and some of the

658
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: other teachers went to I think it was like an

659
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: International House of Pancakes or something like that, some some

660
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 1: sort of diner, and they walked in and one of

661
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: their one of their fellow teachers as an African American

662
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: fellow who wore wore traditional African garments occasionally, and they

663
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: just decide it on a whim as they walked in

664
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: that he was a visiting dignitary from Africa also, and

665
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 1: he put on the whole role of it, and even

666
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 1: went so far as saying, these greeds, what these greeds?

667
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: I would take great, No, honey, you're gonna need more

668
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: than one. So but yeah, they tell the whole stort

669
00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: about how they ended up the check was picked up,

670
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 1: and Dad's the sort where it was a very funny story,

671
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 1: but you could tell there was still that a little

672
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: bit of guilt. Yeah. Well, and that's that's the That's

673
00:34:30,280 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 1: the problem with magic in general, is there's some part

674
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:34,839
Speaker 1: of me that that is compelled. I think that's part

675
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: of why scam School is good for my soul, because

676
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:39,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to be that that that jerk who

677
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 1: goes around letting people believe he as wizard powers and

678
00:34:41,880 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: there's some part of me that wants to tell everyone

679
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: it's all a lie, which is why I really do

680
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: respect stage magicians who who go other way to say,

681
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to perform an illusion for you.

682
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's very clear they're they're they're

683
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 1: telling you up front and they said, but if you're

684
00:34:57,520 --> 00:34:59,640
Speaker 1: willing to go with me on this trip, you're gonna

685
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 1: see some thing amazing. And yeah, and I mean Penn,

686
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,400
Speaker 1: Penn and Teller do some great stuff where they even

687
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 1: go so far as to say, you could question how

688
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: we do it, but if you learn the answer, then

689
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: it just sort of takes away from the performance. The

690
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 1: question we wish you would ask us is why do

691
00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,800
Speaker 1: we do it? Yeah, I'm like, wow, what's what's the

692
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 1: quote that were the magicians say, magicians are guarding an

693
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 1: empty vault, Like, whatever it is you think the method

694
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,719
Speaker 1: is is way more fantastic than than how it actually is.

695
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: Nothing but disappointment lay on the other side of that

696
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: vault door, except in there are a few cases where

697
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: where the actual method is even more interesting than the

698
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: trick itself. And once that's true, then then by all

699
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 1: means teach the entire thing. And in fact, um it

700
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 1: used to be. The very first episode of Scam School

701
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: we did was something called the human chimney, where you

702
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 1: essentially make smoke appear from nowhere out of your lungs

703
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: and Uh. It got great reactions when I did it,

704
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:01,759
Speaker 1: but everybody thought the methodybody assumed was happening was not

705
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 1: nearly as interesting as the science behind what happens when

706
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 1: you you secretly inhaled this poisonous white white phosphor, and

707
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 1: the white phosphor SAPs out all of the moisture out

708
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: of your lungs, creating this super thick water vapor and

709
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: it uh. Once, I found that I get much more

710
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:20,920
Speaker 1: joy and a bigger right reaction out of people by

711
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: explaining how it's done and encouraging them to try it,

712
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 1: because it's it's interesting when a magician can make spoke

713
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 1: ap here out of the lungs. It's magic when somebody

714
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 1: could do it to themselves. Yeah, exactly. And I've even

715
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 1: heard magicians talk about how they would see someone do uh,

716
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 1: like some close up magic and uh, and they would

717
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: just you know, they knew a way of doing it,

718
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 1: and that was immediately what they go to. They assumed

719
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 1: that that's the way. And then when it's demonstrated that

720
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: there's a different way, and it might be an incredibly

721
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: difficult and and complex way that requires lots more practice

722
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: than the simple way, but Stagemsic sioan't say wow, that

723
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:03,360
Speaker 1: was amazing. As a matter of fact, the fantastic performer

724
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 1: Tom Mullika is a legend and magic. He's one of

725
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:07,799
Speaker 1: the most talented side around artists out there, and he's

726
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 1: got that that gift of personality and charisma and he

727
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 1: did this. He has this like three and a half

728
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: minute routine where he appears to eat one at one

729
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,359
Speaker 1: by one, an entire box of cigarettes. Uh. And there's

730
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,839
Speaker 1: actually heavy these are lit cigarettes. He lights them all,

731
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: he smokes them all at once. He has this you know,

732
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 1: it's like that Homer Simpson photo of the mouthful of cigarettes. Uh.

733
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:31,239
Speaker 1: He does that and then appears to swallow all of

734
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,959
Speaker 1: them and there's heavy duty, awesome side of hand going

735
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: on in there. But he goes to FISM and if

736
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 1: you don't know, f I s M is like the

737
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:40,919
Speaker 1: Olympics of magic. They have it I think every third

738
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 1: or second year a couple of years ago, was in

739
00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,400
Speaker 1: in China. But he goes to FISSM and just totally

740
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 1: bombs because all of the judges just assume this guy's

741
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:53,320
Speaker 1: a freak who just swallowed a bunch of lit cigarettes.

742
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: Nobody knew it was magic and as a result, he

743
00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:00,919
Speaker 1: he didn't win. Wow. Yeah, that in that crazy. That's

744
00:38:00,960 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: that's almost an accolade. Awesome enough all on its own,

745
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: I'm sure. Yeah, that's part of it. I'm sure that's

746
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: why the story is being told. Well, to transition out

747
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 1: of this, I wanted to talk more about some of

748
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 1: the other projects you've worked on, some of which are

749
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,479
Speaker 1: closely related to technology. In fact, one of these we've

750
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,640
Speaker 1: we've talked about on our show in the past, and

751
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: I think I might have even talked about this before

752
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: I met you, which is the whole idea of leaving

753
00:38:25,640 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: behind a virtual ghost. Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I

754
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,440
Speaker 1: think I think it might have been before we we

755
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:34,479
Speaker 1: had met each other. Yeah, that's the the afterlife dot

756
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,320
Speaker 1: me project. Um, if you we don't really have anything

757
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: up there, but if you want to sign up to

758
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 1: be notified when it's uh, I'm going to make sure

759
00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: it's actually still alive here and before that's a f

760
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: T E r L y f E dot me afterlife

761
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: dot me. Uh, it's it's the nuts and bolts are

762
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 1: are being tinkered with by Patrick Dela Hanty who's a

763
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:57,399
Speaker 1: super talented web developer and uh you're starting to see

764
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: similar projects pop up, but all of them, they're all sanctimonious,

765
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 1: and they're all like, you know, we're here to help

766
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,879
Speaker 1: with the grieving process, and we're here to we're here

767
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,479
Speaker 1: to clean up your data after you passed away. After

768
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 1: life on Me is freaking honest. After lifetime Me is

769
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: an opportunity to become a virtual ghost just to annoy

770
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 1: and freak out everyone for the rest of eternity. And

771
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,879
Speaker 1: essentially what happens is it's a dead man switch where

772
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: every day, every year, on your birthday, you log in

773
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:26,640
Speaker 1: and let it know you're alive, and of course it'll

774
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 1: bug you by email to UH to tell you to um,

775
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 1: you know, make sure to check in, but if it

776
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: doesn't hear back, it assumes you're dead. And then it

777
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,320
Speaker 1: takes all of your past tweets and just starts repeating

778
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: them on the same times at the same dates that

779
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: you said a year after year. And what I love

780
00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:47,480
Speaker 1: about this is isn't that what ghosts are in history

781
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 1: are items that don't know they're dead. These these echoes

782
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: that think they're going about the daily business of their

783
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:55,879
Speaker 1: life when they're not. And the idea that we could

784
00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: do that digitally forever. You know, it's like picking up

785
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: the kids, marry Christmas, the birthday in the bank. You know,

786
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: all these things that you say year after year can

787
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,839
Speaker 1: become these digital echoes for all eternity. I think it's

788
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: really cool as an art project. And um, you know,

789
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,520
Speaker 1: I some people say it's tacky. Yes, it very likely is,

790
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 1: but a lot of art can be tacky, and I

791
00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: think it's really cool performance art. Personally, I love it.

792
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I just love the idea of someone reading

793
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: a tweet and saying, Jonathan's been dead for twenty years

794
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 1: and he's still slamming the iPad and think about this, well,

795
00:40:29,360 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 1: and that will be the other thing too. It's like

796
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 1: it'll be more hilarious to hear you talking about stuff

797
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: that doesn't like like Amy Winehouse die. You know, I

798
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,279
Speaker 1: think that'll that will become funny over time. But also

799
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 1: think about the apt replies where all of a sudden

800
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 1: you you whisper a happy birthday to someone from five

801
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: years after the fact. This just tells me that I

802
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 1: just need to make a lot more younger friends. That's right,

803
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: because I do want to irritate people after I mean,

804
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,719
Speaker 1: I do it while I'm alive, why would I want

805
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,640
Speaker 1: to stop after I'm dead? I want to hear tape people,

806
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: So you know, it's a great idea. As soon as

807
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: I heard it, I I completely appreciated it for what

808
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 1: it was being being sort of a mischievous prank poller myself.

809
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 1: I found it. I found it incredibly appealing. There's still

810
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: some interview left, but before we get there, let's take

811
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: another quick break to thank our sponsor, UM. So why

812
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: don't we talk about You can talk about some of

813
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 1: the other shows you do, because we haven't really covered

814
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 1: any of those. You've got some stuff on the twit

815
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: network for example, and also you I do want to

816
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: hear more about your experience with the Scam School e

817
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:44,279
Speaker 1: book please Yeah. Well, Scam School, of course is is

818
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: the big coming out party that I had for with

819
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,360
Speaker 1: the internet. UM. But a lot of people were surprised

820
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,680
Speaker 1: when it turns out I knew anything about technology as

821
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,920
Speaker 1: well my past life. I spent a year testing video

822
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 1: games for Rockwell semi conductors for a year, which was awesome,

823
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 1: and I spent on three years at Dell and their

824
00:42:01,560 --> 00:42:05,040
Speaker 1: high end sales support, you know, designing networks for small

825
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: businesses or building high end systems for you know, three

826
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: D model ers, animators, that kind of thing. Uh. And uh,

827
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: that's the first time I did this Weekend Tech. It

828
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 1: just seemed like a natural fit. And Leo is nice

829
00:42:17,600 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: enough to give me a number of shows to do,

830
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:23,280
Speaker 1: and now I'm doing three programs over there, including NSFW.

831
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: Is is an utterly volatile powder keg where we never

832
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: know what's gonna happen. Half the time, it blows up

833
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: in our face. Every so often, we have moments of

834
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: awesome hilarity. Um, it's it's almost it's a very weird

835
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: show because it's almost openly hostile to new people trying

836
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,600
Speaker 1: to visit it. So if you don't understand what's going on,

837
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,359
Speaker 1: just give it a couple more episodes and see if

838
00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 1: it's seeing sin. Yeah, it's kind of like your head

839
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: with a hammer feels really good. Anytime you have justin

840
00:42:47,680 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: Robert Young involved, there's gonna be volatility, exactly exactly. Uh.

841
00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:54,840
Speaker 1: And then I started hosting a frame Rate with tom Merritt,

842
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: which is a whole show about this whole emerging space

843
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: with new media. This is, in many way is the

844
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,959
Speaker 1: most exciting time to be a broadcaster or be somebody

845
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,720
Speaker 1: who's interested in reaching a large audience of all time,

846
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: because essentially we're seeing exactly now the exact same thing

847
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: that happened in the nineteen fifties with broadcast television, and

848
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: then in nineteen seventies with cable television. When when broadcast

849
00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: television began, there was no market because nobody had TVs,

850
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,400
Speaker 1: nobody knew what to do, and nobody had any money.

851
00:43:22,480 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: So they just took their radio figures and threw them

852
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: in front of a screen, and then they figured out

853
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: that television is a different medium than these other things,

854
00:43:29,280 --> 00:43:30,959
Speaker 1: and they were able to tell their own unique stories

855
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 1: in their own unique ways. Same thing happened in the

856
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: seventies with cable. Nobody was watching, so all of a sudden,

857
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: there's all this band with all these channels. People are

858
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: just throwing stuff. Ted Turner takes his local TBS W

859
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,279
Speaker 1: TBS station and throws it, calls it a superstation, but

860
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 1: then all of a sudden it becomes TBS this powerhouse.

861
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 1: Same thing with CNN. It wasn't even possible to have

862
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 1: a twenty four hour news network beforehand. So nowadays we're

863
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: in the wild West of new media with just distribution

864
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:59,359
Speaker 1: from YouTube, with podcasting with with pretty much anyone who's

865
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: got a story to hell now has a global opportunity

866
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: to to reach an audience worldwide and it cost him

867
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 1: nothing that there's no barrier to access and it's a

868
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 1: it's this awesome land rush to see who can become

869
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,359
Speaker 1: king of which little circuits out there, because whoever gets

870
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 1: there first has a huge advantage. That's the reason CNN

871
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 1: was number one for so long was because it was

872
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 1: the first twenty four hour cables network and it was

873
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: everyone else was just couldn't couldn't top it. And so

874
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:30,719
Speaker 1: likewise that was the big pushwick for why I did

875
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: uh scam school. So anyway, that's what frame rate is about,

876
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: is about the emerging digital transition, watching some new media

877
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: stars transition to television and vice versa and uh And

878
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: of course now we're hosting game on on on Twitch,

879
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: which is every Sunday night Live. We talked about the

880
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,200
Speaker 1: video game news and reviews and that's with Veronica Belmont.

881
00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: Yes I should lead off with that they weren't like

882
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 1: the man, and that's fine. It's you know, Veronica, I

883
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: know I love her. She um she has shot me

884
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,839
Speaker 1: the look of death at least three times in my life,

885
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 1: and I have survived. So I got it once or

886
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:11,399
Speaker 1: twice myself. There's a hair trigger, you know. Just it's

887
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:13,359
Speaker 1: read on the right ground. I don't want to get

888
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:15,720
Speaker 1: in trouble. But one of my favorite things about posting

889
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 1: Game on is seeing the Veronica Belmont that that will

890
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,759
Speaker 1: never show herself on the internet. She is. She is delightfully,

891
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: hilariously crass. She is a wonderful person. And that's all

892
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: I'm going to say about this because I'm posting this show.

893
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: Brian Brushwood had other things to say, but Jonathan Strickland

894
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: just loves her, all right. So now that we've got

895
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: that clear, yeah, so tell tell us more about this

896
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 1: e book. Oh my god. So for years I've been

897
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:43,799
Speaker 1: flapping my gums about how I want to do a

898
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 1: book for the Scam school Book. And originally I had

899
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 1: all these designs on a physical book that would have

900
00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: like magic E kind of properties to it. The problem,

901
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 1: of course, is that physical media unless you get picked

902
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,560
Speaker 1: up by a big publisher who wants to invest a

903
00:45:55,600 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars, Uh, it's extremely it's the development costs

904
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: are are are high, the printing costs are high, especially

905
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: if you want to do something nonstandard or tricky with

906
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: the pages. Uh, and you miss out on what's great

907
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: about scam School because of course we have all these

908
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: episodes and the only way to get from a book

909
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: to an episode would be like a clugi kind of

910
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,160
Speaker 1: QR code thing. And have you ever used that? If

911
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: any of you guys ever read a book that a

912
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: QR codes and actually pulled out your phone and clicked

913
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: on it, went to the page once or twice, but

914
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's definitely, it's definitely there's a barrier there.

915
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 1: It's just like with podcasts and and suggesting, like we

916
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: we tell in our podcast for people to go and

917
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 1: read the articles and how stuff works. But that's kind

918
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 1: of challenging because you know, it's two different, separate media.

919
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,160
Speaker 1: So to tell someone to go and read this article

920
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: and the article is amazing and that it goes into

921
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,760
Speaker 1: far more detail than we ever could in a podcast

922
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: and has some visual effects and all that kind of stuff. Um,

923
00:46:51,920 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a smaller number of people who make

924
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,439
Speaker 1: that transition. We love those people and we would love

925
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 1: that number to grow, but we understand in it's it's

926
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: two different media, and often you know what you're doing

927
00:47:03,200 --> 00:47:06,400
Speaker 1: in one instance is not really you don't. There's no

928
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:08,359
Speaker 1: way to pour it over easily. Like if I'm mowing

929
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: the lawn and listening to a podcast, I'm obviously not

930
00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: gonna jump on line and read an article about, you know,

931
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 1: quantum suicide exactly. So it's one of those things where

932
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 1: it's like you need to have as smooth a transition

933
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 1: as possible. And about I guess two years ago, when

934
00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: Kindle really started to get more popular, and of course

935
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 1: uh iTunes started up their eyebookstore, I was like, oh dude,

936
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 1: then it's gotta be it's gotta be e books, and

937
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: so we we converted some of my old books to

938
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: e books and we figured out really fast what a

939
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:39,040
Speaker 1: nightmare this, This entire industry is in right now. As

940
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: far as like proper format, and you've got competing formats

941
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 1: dot mobi, dot epuby, they handle stuff differently. They have

942
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: different capabilities in dot in dot moby. With a Kindle format,

943
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:54,200
Speaker 1: it's not even possible to wrap text around an image.

944
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 1: All you can have is text, text, text block. Here's

945
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: an image and you can't control the size of it.

946
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: It'll it'll reformat stuff. Uh, it was so difficult to

947
00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 1: try to build this tool that I really became disheartened

948
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,480
Speaker 1: as far as ever reaching that goal of what I

949
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 1: wanted to do if I have something that was rich media,

950
00:48:12,280 --> 00:48:15,600
Speaker 1: that was detailed, that was pretty, that was highly interactive

951
00:48:15,640 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 1: and had embedded media content. But then along comes this

952
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:23,359
Speaker 1: company booked that's v O o K dot com and

953
00:48:23,440 --> 00:48:28,160
Speaker 1: they essentially are trying to create a their own platform

954
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 1: that once you create the book in book, you press

955
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:34,720
Speaker 1: publish and it converts it to don mobi dot epub

956
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: and it and it sends it out to to Barnes

957
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: and Noble, to to Amazon and two iTunes. So with

958
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,600
Speaker 1: one click publishing you're able to create really good looking

959
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: e books and with rich embedded media. And so we

960
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 1: we participated in their beta program, which was a little

961
00:48:50,520 --> 00:48:53,319
Speaker 1: bit harrowing because there were times where the entire book

962
00:48:53,320 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 1: would vanish or chapter which because they disappear, we get

963
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 1: on the phone, We're like, let's go on. They're like,

964
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:01,840
Speaker 1: don't worry, we'll fix it. It's magic exactly like it's beta.

965
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,359
Speaker 1: But they but they had by the time we were

966
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,839
Speaker 1: done with the book, I'm I was extraordinarily proud of it.

967
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: It is It is unlike any other e book I've

968
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: seen in that it's uh, it's almost like a Harry

969
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:17,760
Speaker 1: Potter book, where where the pictures and illustrations come alive,

970
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:21,840
Speaker 1: there's there's seventy audio commentary. I've never seen audio commentary

971
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: tracks for chapters in a book before. Uh. And and

972
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:28,319
Speaker 1: it's amazing because the book itself is a collection of

973
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 1: eight plus tricks from the Scam School series. These are

974
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: all things that are either street cons to watch out

975
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 1: for or ways to score free drink, some kick ass

976
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 1: magic tricks and if you really nasty, pranks to pull

977
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: on your friends. And it's I love the media format

978
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,000
Speaker 1: because I can spend two paragraphs explaining how to hold

979
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:48,759
Speaker 1: your pinky when you're holding a deck of cards, But

980
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,440
Speaker 1: none of that's as useful as when you press when

981
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: you press on the on the photo and all of

982
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 1: a sudden, it comes live and illustrates animated for you

983
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 1: and shows you exactly what you're supposed to do. So

984
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: it's got It's got seventy plus audio commentary tracks and

985
00:50:02,000 --> 00:50:06,160
Speaker 1: forty plus illustrations. And out of everything, I'm most pleased

986
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 1: with the fact that Teller of Penn and Teller allowed

987
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 1: me to publish an essay he wrote me seventeen years

988
00:50:12,160 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: ago when I was nineteen years old, uh and looking

989
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: for my place in magic. I wrote a letter to

990
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: Teller and he was kind enough to write a response,

991
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: like a four page essay talking about creativity and magic.

992
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: And UH. Being able to publish that and share the

993
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: word on that has been extremely gratifying. So I am

994
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: very very happy. If you go to scam school book

995
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: dot com you can find all all the different platforms. Fantastic. Yeah,

996
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 1: And that that is exciting to me because you know,

997
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:42,760
Speaker 1: we've been talking about this whole electronic book uh medium

998
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: and and what the potential is and that it's been

999
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: several years in the making and it and it's so

1000
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,239
Speaker 1: exciting that it looks like now we're getting the point

1001
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,600
Speaker 1: where people are actually really cracking that nut, where they've

1002
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: managed to find a way to incorporate the different abilities

1003
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: you have in something like a web based presence and

1004
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:08,120
Speaker 1: the things you have within electronic text, and that it's

1005
00:51:08,160 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: being brought together in ways to to really cater to

1006
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 1: a wider audience. Really because and we all know that

1007
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 1: people favor different ways to learn information. Some people some

1008
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: people reading texts that's what they like, and some people

1009
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,200
Speaker 1: they have to see it work for it to really

1010
00:51:23,400 --> 00:51:26,919
Speaker 1: have an impact. And this is I was gonna say,

1011
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:29,800
Speaker 1: this is an important phase we're entering with the books.

1012
00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: Were just as we figured out that television is not

1013
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:36,400
Speaker 1: radio with pictures, e books are not books on your iPad.

1014
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:40,320
Speaker 1: It's it's an inherently different platform with different strengths and

1015
00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 1: we weaknesses. And I honestly feel like, like the Scam

1016
00:51:43,800 --> 00:51:46,320
Speaker 1: School Book is the first book on the shelves, you

1017
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 1: know this minute that truly takes advantage of that unique

1018
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: nature and speaks the language of digital e books, and

1019
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: the reviews seem to indicate that there is something special

1020
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,120
Speaker 1: happening there that's awesome. Yeah, And I mean I think

1021
00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: the next if I were to put on my prognosticator had,

1022
00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: I would say the next step as far as the

1023
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: medium starting to come into its own, uh the e

1024
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 1: book is is what's happening now. I think the next

1025
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: step is augmented reality, because right now we're seeing it

1026
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,960
Speaker 1: used in things like commercials and that kind of or games,

1027
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,680
Speaker 1: but the idea of having a world of information overlaid

1028
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: on top of the real world around you and anchoring

1029
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:27,640
Speaker 1: that information in the world to give it real and

1030
00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 1: impactful meaning to the person who's who's looking at it

1031
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: and whatever context that might be, because there could be

1032
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 1: endless number of contexts for any particular region. That to me,

1033
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:41,239
Speaker 1: that's the That's why I keep on whenever I get

1034
00:52:41,280 --> 00:52:44,399
Speaker 1: an opportunity, I keep on mentioning a Google if you're

1035
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:49,560
Speaker 1: making those glasses, I want to pair absolutely. I fully

1036
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:53,759
Speaker 1: believe that that you're already seeing this in the military,

1037
00:52:54,160 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: the video gamification of your job, and uh, and they are.

1038
00:52:59,800 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: I know, I guess the military really pioneered the idea

1039
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: of of badges and medals and achievements. But uh, but

1040
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 1: you know, of course we see it and stuff like

1041
00:53:08,280 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: World of Warcraft when you're grinding all the time. And

1042
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,239
Speaker 1: a friend of mine is now a he was the

1043
00:53:13,280 --> 00:53:16,480
Speaker 1: CEO of a company put together a business plan to

1044
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:19,759
Speaker 1: try to pitch the idea of of of of an

1045
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:23,960
Speaker 1: achievement based system for all of his employees based on

1046
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 1: their class and their and their missions or their tasks

1047
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: where they could they could level up and get perks,

1048
00:53:30,560 --> 00:53:33,080
Speaker 1: they could win badges, and the whole thing was clearly

1049
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,960
Speaker 1: modeled right after World of Warcraft, and he i don't

1050
00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:38,879
Speaker 1: know if he ever implemented it, but it was so

1051
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:42,160
Speaker 1: obviously right when I read it that I fully expect

1052
00:53:42,239 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 1: us to see more companies running their businesses like a video.

1053
00:53:45,560 --> 00:53:49,600
Speaker 1: Classic episode our conversation with Brian Brushwood. Brian is an

1054
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 1: awesome dude. If you don't know him, you should definitely

1055
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: look up his work. He's got several YouTube series the

1056
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,879
Speaker 1: date back for years. He shows you all these as

1057
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 1: some magic tricks that you can learn how to do

1058
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 1: and really impress friends, as well as things like bar

1059
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,240
Speaker 1: bets and that kind of stuff. Lots of really fun

1060
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,040
Speaker 1: social engineering as well, so make sure you go check

1061
00:54:11,040 --> 00:54:13,560
Speaker 1: those out. And if you have any suggestions for future

1062
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: episodes of tech Stuff, well send me an email the

1063
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: addresses tech stuff at how stuff works dot com or

1064
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:23,359
Speaker 1: drop on over to our website that's tech stuff podcast

1065
00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: dot com. You'll find the archive of shows there, as

1066
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: well as our links to social media sites and of

1067
00:54:29,640 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: course the link to our store. Every purchase you make

1068
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: at our store goes to help the show. We greatly

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Speaker 1: appreciate it, and I'll talk to you again really soon.

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Speaker 1: YEA for more on this and bathands of other topics.

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Speaker 1: Because at how stuff Works dot com