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Speaker 1: Now here's a highlight from Coast to coast am on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: You're right about Cardinal John O'Connor, which I think he

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Speaker 2: passed away in two thousand.

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Speaker 1: Did he not.

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Speaker 2: That's correct, eighty years old. But he had a sermon

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Speaker 2: that had an effect on you tell us about that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So he gave this speech in Saint Patrick's Cathedral in

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety where he actually took the novel The Exorcist

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Speaker 4: and was reading it in church. So this was real

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Speaker 4: religion and kind of pop culture horror novels coming together

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Speaker 4: in a very striking and obvious way.

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Speaker 3: And he gave this sermon.

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Speaker 4: He warned about spiritual evil, and he said that two

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Speaker 4: exorcisms have been performed in the Diocese of New York.

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Speaker 4: It's very rare for a cardinal to publicly talk about that.

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Speaker 4: Later ed and Lorraine Warren from the Conjuring franchise that

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Speaker 4: they had been present for those exorcisms. And then he

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Speaker 4: talked about panic violence. He talked about Charles Manson and

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Speaker 4: the Manson family, and he talked about rock music, and

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Speaker 4: he talked about Ozzy Osbourne and said it was pornography

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Speaker 4: and sound and Ozzy Osbourne was so upset about this

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Speaker 4: homily that he wrote a public letter to the cardinal

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Speaker 4: and he said that The Exorcist is gruesomely realistic. It's

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Speaker 4: a way to imagine what real exorcisms that are really

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Speaker 4: going on actually look like. So our book, The Exorcist Effect,

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Speaker 4: we took these three topics from that sermon exorcism, you know,

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Speaker 4: satanic cults and rock music, and we kind of use

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Speaker 4: those to organize chapters in the.

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Speaker 2: Book Rosemary's Baby. Great movie, was it real?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 4: Rosemary's Baby. So nineteen sixty seven you get this novel

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Speaker 4: by Ira eleven. He said, you know, it's just a novel,

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Speaker 4: but was the bestseller. And they asked Alfred Hitchcock to

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Speaker 4: make a movie. And Alfred Hitchcock was raised Catholic, and

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Speaker 4: he said, absolutely not. I will do nice movies about

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Speaker 4: murders and psychos, but I'm not doing this movie right,

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Speaker 4: this is just blasphemous. So the movie rights go to

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Speaker 4: a fellow named William Castle. And William Castle was famous

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Speaker 4: for doing really kind of corny Mattine movies where he might,

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Speaker 4: you know, have a woman dress up as a nurse

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Speaker 4: and say this is so scary. You might have a

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Speaker 4: heart attack, so you have to sign a waiver to

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Speaker 4: watch it. And he saw the potential in Rosemary's Baby

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Speaker 4: and he said, I'm going to make this into a

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Speaker 4: great film and I'm going to be taken seriously in Hollywood.

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Speaker 4: But the studio said, we're not going to make this

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Speaker 4: with you directing it. You can produce it, but you've

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Speaker 4: got to have a serious director. And so they ended

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Speaker 4: up having Roman Polanski and he made that movie in

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Speaker 4: a really hyper real style. And so the movie, of course,

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Speaker 4: is about a conspiracy of witches and Satanists who are

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Speaker 4: plotting to impregnate this woman with the child of the devil.

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Speaker 4: But you know, they seem really nice, all the neighbors.

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Speaker 4: They seem very helpful and quirky. They don't seem like

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Speaker 4: really nasty, sinister people. And so people saw that movie

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Speaker 4: and they thought, wow, this could happen in life. You know,

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Speaker 4: someone that I trust, somebody close to me, could actually

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Speaker 4: be part of some kind of satanic conspiracy theory. So

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Speaker 4: it really affected people's imaginations.

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Speaker 2: Who's started that? MEA Ferald wasn't it?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: She was, in my opinion, great as Rosemary. And it

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Speaker 4: was the first horror movie to win an Oscar. The

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Speaker 4: woman who played a mini castevet won Best Actress in

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Speaker 4: a Supporting Role. So nineteen sixty eight was a really

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Speaker 4: big year for horror movies. Prior to that, horror movies

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Speaker 4: were seen as kind of shlock that you took your

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Speaker 4: date to the drive thru in. And Rosemary's Baby showed

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Speaker 4: this could actually be serious art that could win an Oscar.

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Speaker 2: Fifty eight years ago. Joseph, can you believe that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's bit, but you know what holds up, it's

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Speaker 4: still a good film.

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Speaker 2: What is the Exorcist effect that you talk about in

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Speaker 2: your work?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so everybody knows the excess is based on a

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Speaker 4: true story. But when that movie came out, people all

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Speaker 4: of America began saying, gosh, I think I'm possessed. I

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Speaker 4: think you know, I'm acting strangely. My dog's acting strangely.

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Speaker 4: My kids are doing odd things. Maybe it's a demon.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I need an exorcism. And so they went to

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Speaker 4: the churches and just like in the film, most priests

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Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy three said, I have no idea how

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Speaker 4: to do an actressism. It's not done anymore. So this

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Speaker 4: eventually created a revival of extorcism. And one of the

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Speaker 4: people that you could go to in the seventies if

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Speaker 4: you went an extricism was Ed and Lorraine Warren, And

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Speaker 4: so they were able to have a career because of

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Speaker 4: the film The Ectrescist, and now their adventures and cases

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Speaker 4: are the basis of the Conjuring franchise, which is a

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Speaker 4: two billion dollar franchise.

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Speaker 3: That's billion with the B.

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Speaker 4: There's also a fellow named Father Gabriela Mort who some

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Speaker 4: people may have heard of, but he said, because of

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Speaker 4: The Extorcist, I was able to revive extorcism in the

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Speaker 4: Catholic Church and he founded a group called the International

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Speaker 4: Association of Extorcists, and he was re portrayed by Russell

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Speaker 4: Crowe in a film called The Pope's Exorcist. So what

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Speaker 4: we have here is a cycle where real events inspire movies.

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Speaker 4: Movies inspire real events, and we call that cycle the

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Speaker 4: Exorcist Effects.

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Speaker 2: That was a tremendous movie. Crow did a great job

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Speaker 2: there too.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I love watching Russell Crowe. He just gets more and

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Speaker 4: more exciting to watch in some ways.

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Speaker 2: What is it with all these horror movies, Joseph, And

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Speaker 2: how does that tie into some of the things of reality.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, horror is really interesting as a genre because, unlike

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Speaker 4: other genres, horror has to tell.

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Speaker 3: You that it's true. Right.

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Speaker 4: A rom com doesn't become a better rom com if

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Speaker 4: you tell people it's a true story. But horror has

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Speaker 4: to be to tell people it's true and if possible,

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Speaker 4: you know, to be like the Exorcists, to actually find

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Speaker 4: a real event that happened and try to portray it

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Speaker 4: dramatically on the screen.

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Speaker 3: And you know, some people don't like horror.

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Speaker 4: Movies and they say, well, this is this is this

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Speaker 4: seems SADISTI why would you want to watch bad things

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Speaker 4: happen to people? But I think that for a lot

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Speaker 4: of people, the pleasure of a horror movie is intellectual.

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Speaker 4: You want to think about what's going on. And so

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Speaker 4: I think for horror movie fans they kind of think,

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Speaker 4: could demonic possession really happen? Could a conspiracy like in

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Speaker 4: Rosemary's Baby really exist? And so they're good to think with.

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Speaker 4: And I think that that's why Cardinal O'Connor wanted his

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Speaker 4: congregation to hear The Exorcist, because he said, this is

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Speaker 4: going to help you imagine something that could very well

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Speaker 4: really happen.

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Speaker 2: When you teach these subjects in the university, what do

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Speaker 2: the students want to learn? Primarily? What are they interested in?

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, on bad days, I think the students

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Speaker 4: want to just find the least painful way to get

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Speaker 4: a college credit that they can. But you know, the students,

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Speaker 4: once they get into it and they kind of see

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Speaker 4: some of the questions, you know, they really start to

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Speaker 4: become interested in what we know about the cases, so

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Speaker 4: the specific cases that things are based on, and I

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Speaker 4: encourage them to think of multiple possible abilities of what

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Speaker 4: could have happened with someone like a Ronald Hunkler. They

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Speaker 4: get interested in the text and understanding the cultures so

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Speaker 4: that they can interpret a historical texts. And of course

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Speaker 4: they're very interested in, you know, things like whether demons

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Speaker 4: are real or extorcism is real. And my advice on

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Speaker 4: that is, I tell them, you know, believe whatever you want.

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Speaker 4: I never want to tell you what to believe or

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Speaker 4: not believe in. But if you want to write a

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Speaker 4: term paper, try to stick to something you can prove

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Speaker 4: with evidence. And demons, while they may well exist, it's

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Speaker 4: hard to convince other people about them. So I encourage

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Speaker 4: them to kind of look at other directions for their

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Speaker 4: their writing and research projects.

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Speaker 2: Where do you get your books?

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Speaker 4: Well, the Penguin Book of Actressism and the Penguin Book

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Speaker 4: of Cults are available at Barnes and Noble or Amazon

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Speaker 4: or anywhere you buy books. And the accissis to fact

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Speaker 4: is from Oxford University Press. You can get that from

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Speaker 4: their website or you can get that from Amazon.

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Speaker 2: Did the Catholic Church come out with any statements when

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Speaker 2: Rosemary's Baby came out?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely?

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Speaker 4: The Catholic Church hated Rosemary's Baby, and William Castle knew

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Speaker 4: that they would and that they would condemn it and

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Speaker 4: that would make more people see the film. So that

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Speaker 4: the Catholic Church had a group for a long time

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Speaker 4: called the League of Decency, which created the so called

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Speaker 4: Hayes Code, which regulated what kinds of things that you

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Speaker 4: could show in a movie. And they gave Rosemary's Baby

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Speaker 4: a grade of C for condemned. And they said, you know,

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Speaker 4: on top of everything else, the blasphemy, it's actually a

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Speaker 4: good movie. And they said the fact that the movie

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Speaker 4: was well done technically makes it even worse because now

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Speaker 4: more people are going to see this kind of blasphemous story.

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Speaker 3: So they did not like Rosemary's Baby one.

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Speaker 2: Good did it get panned in the press.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting.

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Speaker 4: At the time, yeah, the press, you know, was a

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Speaker 4: kind of skeptical of it, and they said, well, which

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Speaker 4: is aren't real, right?

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Speaker 3: Why would they show this? And they said, why do.

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Speaker 4: The witches look like normal people? Why isn't this set

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Speaker 4: in Transylvania or a haunted, spooky castle or something like that.

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Speaker 4: But of course the critics were wrong, and lots of

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Speaker 4: people do believe in all kinds of conspiracy theories and

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Speaker 4: that there are Satanists and witches out there who are

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Speaker 4: you know, doing a bad things to people. And one

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Speaker 4: critic even said, you know, the witches seemed like a

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Speaker 4: far out California cult. And not long after they wrote

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Speaker 4: that review of Rosemary's Baby, of course, we had the

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Speaker 4: Manson murders, which showed that a far out California cult

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Speaker 4: could actually be pretty scary.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Mia Farrell was twenty two when she

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Speaker 2: did the role in Rosemary's Baby. She's eighty years old now.

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Speaker 2: Did it skyrocket her career?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: I think that she Yeah, she was pretty much unknown,

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Speaker 4: I believe when Rosemary's Baby came out and suddenly she was,

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Speaker 4: you know, almost a household name.

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Speaker 3: And of course she.

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Speaker 4: Was so kind of beautiful in that film and had

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Speaker 4: a kind of innocence, which is why they cast her.

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Speaker 3: So I think that really put a big spotlight on her.

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Speaker 3: For sure.

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Speaker 2: Wasn't she married to Frank Sinatra for a little bit, Yes,

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Speaker 2: she was. Yeah, small world, My gosh. Satanists. Anton Leavay,

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Speaker 2: was he involved in any of this?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So Anton LaVey in nineteen sixty six in San

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Speaker 4: Francisco founds the Church of Satan. And so before that

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Speaker 4: there were rumors, you know, maybe there's really Satanists in

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Speaker 4: the world, and maybe there's not. But after nineteen sixty six,

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Speaker 4: everybody could point to Anton LeVay and say that guy

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Speaker 4: there is a Satanist.

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Speaker 3: He admits it.

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Speaker 4: He holds, you know, Satanic parties at his house in

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Speaker 4: San Francisco that he had painted black, and celebrities like

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Speaker 4: Sammy Davis Junior even would participate in this. And he

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Speaker 4: was also he loved movies. Would he would you know,

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Speaker 4: most of his life would he would watch movies in

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Speaker 4: his house in San Francisco.

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Speaker 3: And he was also a bit of a fibbre about

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Speaker 3: his life.

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Speaker 4: So in Rosemary's Baby, there is a scene where someone

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Speaker 4: in a devil costume comes and basically ravishes Rosemary, and

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Speaker 4: Anton Levy told everybody that was me, I was the

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Speaker 4: one in the devil costume, and we now know that

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Speaker 4: that's not true, that that was an actor named Clay Tanner.

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Speaker 4: He also told people that Roman Polanski hired him as

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Speaker 4: a consultant to do you know, Satanic rituals and things

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Speaker 4: like that, and in film that appears not to be

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Speaker 4: true either. However, he was invited to the premiere and

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Speaker 4: he did show up at the premiere of Rosemary's Baby

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Speaker 4: in a hearse, and that was another thing he liked

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Speaker 4: to do with drive around town in his hearse, so

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Speaker 4: he was at least present for the premiere.

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Speaker 2: Joseph, what does a demon mean to you?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean this depends on who you ask, right,

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Speaker 4: So in the Christian tradition, most Christians would say demons

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Speaker 4: are fallen angels.

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Speaker 3: Right that Lucifer.

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Speaker 4: As kind of the the most beautiful of the angels,

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Speaker 4: rebelled against God and sought to replace him, and he

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Speaker 4: took a third of all the angels with him, and

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Speaker 4: they lost this war in heaven and became the demons right.

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Speaker 4: So if you believe that, then you know demons are

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Speaker 4: older than people, They're older than humanity, and presumably you

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Speaker 4: know still still angry about losing US war, angry that

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Speaker 4: God has put so much energy into the human beings

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Speaker 4: and love for human beings.

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Speaker 3: And what Christian.

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Speaker 4: Theologians have said for a long time is demons are

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Speaker 4: jealous of us, right, and their primary motivation is we

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Speaker 4: get to go to heaven, and that's the one place

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Speaker 4: where they were there once and they can never ever

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Speaker 4: go back.

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