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Speaker 1: Pushkin. It seems to me like there were just unresolved

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Speaker 1: issues from my childhood that took me from a user

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Speaker 1: to an abuser as far as drugs and alcohol win

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Speaker 1: and you know, I feel like there was a part

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Speaker 1: of me in my twenties that was saying, Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: see what happens. You know, let's just see what happens

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Speaker 1: when you do those things. That's Jason Izbel a musician

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Speaker 1: heralded by critics as one of the leading singer songwriters

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Speaker 1: of our time. Jason's won four Grammy Awards. You may

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Speaker 1: have heard his hit song cover Me Up from his

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Speaker 1: blockbuster album Southeastern. Over the years, Jason has been open

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Speaker 1: about his struggles with alcohol, all in drugs, and what

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Speaker 1: it's taken for him to become sober. His recovery has

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Speaker 1: involved revisiting some core assumptions about who he was then

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Speaker 1: and who he is today, and one way he gained

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Speaker 1: a better understanding of himself is through his music. There

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Speaker 1: was a huge shift in the reason I wrote songs

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Speaker 1: around that period of time. Up until that point, I

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Speaker 1: had been writing for an external audience. You know, this

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Speaker 1: is my family, this is my father, this is the

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Speaker 1: place where I grew up. But then I sort of,

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Speaker 1: you know, unconsciously started writing songs where I was looking

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Speaker 1: at myself and I was trying to make some sort

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Speaker 1: of estimation of who I was and if I was

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Speaker 1: doing okay. On today's show, Why Jason Isbull believes you

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Speaker 1: don't have to reject your past in order to live

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Speaker 1: a better future. I'm Maya Shunker and this is a

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Speaker 1: slight change of plans, a show about who we are

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Speaker 1: and who we become in the face of a big change.

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Speaker 1: I love Jason Isbel's music not only because he writes beautiful,

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Speaker 1: stirring melodies, but because of how he approaches storytelling. He

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Speaker 1: captures life's challenges, like navigating addiction and recovery in their

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Speaker 1: full complexity. Jason and I began our conversation by talking

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Speaker 1: about his childhood and musical influences. He grew up in

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Speaker 1: Alabama and was exposed to a wide range of music

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Speaker 1: from an early age. We're talking gospel, blue grass, and country.

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Speaker 1: His grandfather, a Pentecostal preacher, played instruments like the banjo

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Speaker 1: and guitar and would often invite Jason to join him.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that really got me hooked from early on.

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Speaker 1: If I would play rhythm guitar for him, he would

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Speaker 1: play like a lead instrument like mandolina or banjo or fiddle.

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Speaker 1: And if I would make it through a couple of

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Speaker 1: hours of playing rhythm guitar, he would reward me by

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Speaker 1: laying the guitar in his lap and tuning it to

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Speaker 1: an open tuning and playing blues music with his pocket knife.

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Speaker 1: Would he would use his pocket knife as a slide,

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Speaker 1: And that was my reward, and that was the thing

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Speaker 1: that I really loved the most. So you continue playing

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Speaker 1: the guitar well into your teenage years, and there's this

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Speaker 1: one day where you're waiting tables at a local restaurant

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Speaker 1: and a co worker ass if you'd like to open

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Speaker 1: for him at an upcoming show at a at a

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Speaker 1: coffee shop, and he says to you that you're going

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Speaker 1: to need to perform thirty minutes of original music the

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Speaker 1: following day, so the next day, which you don't actually have, right,

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Speaker 1: But what was your response? Yeah, I told him that's

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Speaker 1: no problem. I got all kinds of songs easy, you know.

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Speaker 1: And then I thought I got to go home and

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Speaker 1: write some songs. So that's what I did. I set

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Speaker 1: up all night I remember I was drinking Gatorade and

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Speaker 1: Ever Clear, and I stayed up and wrote like half

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Speaker 1: an hour's worth of songs. I remember just flipping back

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Speaker 1: and forth through the notebook, adding something here, go back,

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Speaker 1: add something here, and take something out here, and then

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Speaker 1: played it all back and looked at my watch and saw, okay,

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Speaker 1: that's about thirty minutes, so that'll do. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I wrote all those at once, just as quickly as

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Speaker 1: I could, and that wound up being the first songs

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Speaker 1: of mine that anybody heard. And it was also kind

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Speaker 1: of I think when you're working on that kind of

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Speaker 1: a deadline, or when you're just in this sort of

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Speaker 1: like manic output period, sometimes it turns off the critic

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Speaker 1: in your brain, you know, because you don't have time

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Speaker 1: to judge what you're doing. You're just being creative. So

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Speaker 1: there's something I think beneficial to that. Sometimes, you know,

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Speaker 1: you say it's so nonchalantly, Jason, a matter of fact, like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I told him, Oh, yeah, that's no problem, I

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Speaker 1: got it. But what what gave you the confidence in

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Speaker 1: that moment to say, yeah, I'm going to be able

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Speaker 1: to generate thirty minutes of original music tonight, Like did

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Speaker 1: you always have this feeling that there was that there

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Speaker 1: was so much you wanted to say. Yes, I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you have noticed this, but I'm a white

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Speaker 1: man and that is what gave me that confidence. I

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Speaker 1: love that. Yeah. Sorry, I'm completely unfamiliar with what you're

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Speaker 1: just It may be pixelated here, but I am a

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Speaker 1: white man. The confidence is built in, you know. If

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Speaker 1: I don't have the confidence, that's my own damn fault.

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Speaker 1: But also, I was lucky enough to have a family

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Speaker 1: who had encouraged me and my creative pursuits, and so

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Speaker 1: I thought, well, what's the worst that can happen? You know,

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Speaker 1: I don't write thirty minutes worth of good songs and

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Speaker 1: the ten people in the coffee shop don't like what

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Speaker 1: I'm doing, Fine, I can handle that. And the reason

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Speaker 1: I felt that way because I knew there were people

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Speaker 1: who cared about me in the world. And also I

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Speaker 1: knew that any amount of embarrassment that I felt would

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Speaker 1: go away soon because I would have other opportunities just

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Speaker 1: because of my station in life. You know, I didn't

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Speaker 1: have any money at the time. My parents didn't have

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Speaker 1: any money, and their parents didn't have any money. But

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Speaker 1: we had a lot of encouragement, and we had very

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Speaker 1: little resistance. And I did feel sort of cushioned in

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Speaker 1: a certain way, like you know. And this is not

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Speaker 1: going to end terribly. Nobody's going to beat me up

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Speaker 1: over this. I'm just gonna see what I can do. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And you obviously believe that you had creative potential, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not enough to just feel cushioned, right.

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Speaker 1: You need to believe that you know fundamentally that you

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Speaker 1: have what it takes to write. Yes, I'm coming at

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Speaker 1: this from someone who played music for a long time,

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Speaker 1: but my composition sucked and so I you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to understate how that's a very distinct skill

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Speaker 1: set that one needs to call to. But it seems

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Speaker 1: like it came rather naturally for you. I think so.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know why exactly. I mean, at the

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Speaker 1: root of it, I don't know why. You know, I

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Speaker 1: didn't have a lot of friends that would come over

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Speaker 1: and play guitar with me or anything like that. Mostly

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Speaker 1: I was just sitting alone in my room with a guitar,

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Speaker 1: playing and making sounds. And I think out of that,

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Speaker 1: and then the fact that I really liked to read,

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Speaker 1: you know, my Mom started me reading really early, and

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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed that. I think that combination is sort

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Speaker 1: of what led me to becoming a songwriter. So I

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Speaker 1: love to focus on Shortly after this this coffee gig,

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Speaker 1: you end up joining the band, the Drive By Truckers,

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Speaker 1: and you hit the road for a fairly intense life

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Speaker 1: of touring, right, I mean, you had hundreds of shows

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Speaker 1: a year. What was that transition like for you? It

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Speaker 1: was a very intense touring life. I mean we were

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Speaker 1: always gone, you know, and we're always in a van,

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Speaker 1: and we were sleeping on people's floors, and if we

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Speaker 1: got a hotel, we would get one room and all

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Speaker 1: of us would sleep in the one room. But most

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Speaker 1: of the time we were staying with friends for that

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Speaker 1: first year or so, so there was not a lot

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Speaker 1: of rest. There was a whole lot of excitement because

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Speaker 1: I was twenty one years old and playing music for people,

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Speaker 1: and the people in the audience were extremely happy to

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Speaker 1: be there. And it was you know, the venues were small,

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Speaker 1: but the emotions were big, you know. It was it

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Speaker 1: was a rock and roll show, and it was very loud,

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Speaker 1: and we were just the band was just at that

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Speaker 1: point where things start happening, you know where you I

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Speaker 1: call it, where the hell did all these people come from? Moment?

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Speaker 1: You know where you've been touring and playing and touring

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Speaker 1: and playing, and then all of a sudden, there are

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Speaker 1: people who are in the parking lot who know they're

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Speaker 1: not going to get into the show because it's sold out,

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Speaker 1: but they're still staying in the parking lot just to

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Speaker 1: hear it through the doors, through the windows. But as

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Speaker 1: far as like the experience that I was having, you know,

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Speaker 1: it was really exciting because I'd never been anywhere. I

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Speaker 1: didn't notice so much how difficult it was physically, because

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Speaker 1: yeah it was. I don't know if I could handle

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Speaker 1: it now. I probably couldn't do it now. Yeah, at

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Speaker 1: some point you start to drink excessively and you end

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Speaker 1: up doing drugs. Yeah, I wanted to see what that

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Speaker 1: was like, you know, just what it felt like to

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Speaker 1: do those drugs or to get that drunk, or you know.

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Speaker 1: I call it the sling shot effect because in the

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Speaker 1: small towns, when you're raising a sheltered kid, you're kind

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Speaker 1: of slowly pulling the sling shot back for eighteen years,

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden you let it go

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Speaker 1: and I had lived in such a mundane existence, in

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Speaker 1: such a cloistered kind of place, that when I got

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Speaker 1: out and saw the world, I wanted to take everything in,

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Speaker 1: you know, metaphorically and literally. And also, yeah, the physical

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Speaker 1: aspects of it had a lot to do with it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you ride six or eight hours

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Speaker 1: in a van and then you get out and you

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Speaker 1: have to be in a good mood, and you know,

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Speaker 1: get up on stage and perform, and then load all

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Speaker 1: your stuff back into the van and go sleep for

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Speaker 1: three or four hours on somebody's floor and then get

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Speaker 1: up and do it all again about three hundred times

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Speaker 1: a year. So yeah, that definitely had a part to play.

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Speaker 1: But I think, really, now that I've got some hindsight,

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Speaker 1: it seems to me like they were just unresolved issues

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Speaker 1: from my childhood that kept it from being recreational, you know,

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Speaker 1: and that took me from a user to an abuser

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Speaker 1: as far as drugs and alcohol went. And what do

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Speaker 1: you think some of those unresolved childhood issues were. You know,

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Speaker 1: my parents were very young when I was born. My

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Speaker 1: mom was seventeen, my dad was nineteen, and they did

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Speaker 1: a good job. They were very present in my life.

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Speaker 1: And attentive, but still, you know, with parents that young,

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Speaker 1: nobody knows what the hell they're doing. And there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of religious guilt and a lot of my

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Speaker 1: dad's family, the Pentecostal side of the family, they were

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Speaker 1: it was pretty close to a cult, very much fundamentalist

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Speaker 1: religious sect, to put it politely, and so they were

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Speaker 1: very close to their family. They were you know, very loving,

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Speaker 1: very caring people. But also for a kid, you know,

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Speaker 1: growing up in this situation. You know, when I was five, six,

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Speaker 1: seven years old, I was because because out of love,

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Speaker 1: they thought that that was the way they could love

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Speaker 1: me the best. You know, I was put in a

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Speaker 1: situation where, you know, that sort of conservative Christian viewpoint

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Speaker 1: was bored into my brain and I don't know if

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Speaker 1: this was voluntary on their part, but made to feel

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Speaker 1: like anything outside of that structure was a horrible transgression.

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Speaker 1: And so I was, you know, a little kid walking

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Speaker 1: around feeling all this guilt and all this shame, and

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Speaker 1: God's going to get mad at me and send me

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Speaker 1: to hell, and you know, the vengeful God and the

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Speaker 1: angry God, and that was pretty heavy. That was a

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Speaker 1: pretty heavy thing. Yeah, And I guess you felt it

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Speaker 1: was so imprinted that even when you're a twenty something

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Speaker 1: touring you're still feeling some of those feelings of guilt

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Speaker 1: and shame. Yes, and it was one of those things

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Speaker 1: that sort of cycled. I feel like there was a

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Speaker 1: part of me in my twenties that was saying, Okay,

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Speaker 1: let's see what happens. Let's see what happens if you

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Speaker 1: do all these things that you weren't supposed to be

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Speaker 1: doing that you were told that you would go to

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Speaker 1: hell for. Let's just see what happens when you do

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Speaker 1: those things. Because I'm the kind of person who if

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Speaker 1: I'm afraid of something, my instinct is to do it immediately,

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Speaker 1: you know, to conquer that fear. And none of those

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Speaker 1: were healthy responses, so they all just kind of kept

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Speaker 1: the snowball got bigger and bigger, until finally I had

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Speaker 1: no control over my life. I mean, it got so

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Speaker 1: bad at a certain point that your bandmates, you know,

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Speaker 1: they recognize you have a problem, They try to get

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Speaker 1: you to go to rehab, and you end up refusing.

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Speaker 1: Tell me more about how bad it was, like, how

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Speaker 1: is that expressing itself? What kind of effects were having

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Speaker 1: on others? You know, I was drinking about a fifth

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Speaker 1: a day, about a fifth a Jack Daniels a day,

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Speaker 1: so a big old glass bottle of it. You know,

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Speaker 1: what you would buy at the store that should last

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Speaker 1: you for a couple of months. I was drinking one

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Speaker 1: of those every day, and you know, if there were

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Speaker 1: drugs around, I would do the drugs. You know, everything

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Speaker 1: that I did was essentially in service of drinking more,

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Speaker 1: because that was the thing that worked for me, that

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Speaker 1: hooked me. And you know, most of the time I

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Speaker 1: wasn't angry, especially not at first, not for the first

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Speaker 1: few years of drinking that heavily. I was a funny,

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Speaker 1: happy drunk. And then it just started shifting. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you pile those layers of exhaustion on type of

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Speaker 1: each other and takes more and more alcohol to get

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Speaker 1: what you feel like, it's the same buzz that you

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Speaker 1: used to get. You know, you start to get more

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Speaker 1: angry and more aggressive, and you know, I wasn't like

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Speaker 1: a physically aggressive person, but I can be emotionally and

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Speaker 1: psychologically aggressive in a way that is very vicious and

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Speaker 1: very harmful. I was just a mean bastard. I would

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Speaker 1: say mean things to people and it would hurt their

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Speaker 1: feelings and you know, I wasn't loyal to my first wife.

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Speaker 1: I broke some promises and the bottom line, you know,

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Speaker 1: you don't do that, you don't bring promises and um,

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Speaker 1: and I don't want to say this is because I

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Speaker 1: was an addict, because it wasn't. The truth is it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: It just the addiction just gave me something else to

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Speaker 1: blame for it. So, you know, addiction was a scapegoat

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Speaker 1: for me because it's so easy to say I did

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Speaker 1: those things because I'm drunk. People do it all the

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Speaker 1: time now still in these half ass fake apologies online,

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Speaker 1: you know. But there's a line in one of the

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Speaker 1: old Drive By Trucker's songs that my friend Mike Cooley wrote.

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Speaker 1: He says, the liquor don't make you do the thing,

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Speaker 1: It just lets you. And I always loved that line.

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Speaker 1: It just allows you to be the asshole that you

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Speaker 1: wanted to be. So you know, you eventually leave the band.

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Speaker 1: I mean, folks ask you to leave for a break,

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Speaker 1: and then it becomes a lot extended break and um,

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Speaker 1: and you keep drinking, right, I mean, it doesn't it

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Speaker 1: doesn't immediately stop the problem. And I'm wondering what finally

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Speaker 1: led you to acknowledge that you had a problem and

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Speaker 1: that you actually wanted to make changes. You know, I

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Speaker 1: fell in love with somebody who had her shit together,

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Speaker 1: and I did not think that she was going to

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Speaker 1: stick around unless I got my shit together. And so

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Speaker 1: I got sober and I wrote letters from rehab, and

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Speaker 1: I begged and I pleaded, and I gave her proof

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Speaker 1: that I wasn't going to fall back into my old ways,

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Speaker 1: and I started doing the work and I started going

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Speaker 1: to therapy. And you know, now ten years later, I'm

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Speaker 1: still sober, and I'm much more effective as a person.

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Speaker 1: And this situation is complicated for me now because what

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Speaker 1: I did to her at that point I would not

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Speaker 1: do to someone now. You know, I put a lot

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Speaker 1: of weight, a lot of pressure, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: responsibility for my own redemption, for lack of a better word,

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Speaker 1: on to another person, and in my selfish brain, it

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Speaker 1: looked like I have to do whatever it takes to

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Speaker 1: win the heart of this person that I'm in love with.

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Speaker 1: And now I see that that was not a fair thing,

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Speaker 1: but at the time it looked like a love story

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Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, were you worried at the time, or

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Speaker 1: maybe it didn't hit you because again you were in

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Speaker 1: the throes of love, but that a dependency was forming,

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Speaker 1: and so there was a fragility to your sobriety journey

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Speaker 1: because the minute your wife Amanda left the scene, maybe

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Speaker 1: you would go back to your old ways, Like your

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Speaker 1: journey was inextricably linked to her existence, and you're wanting

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Speaker 1: her love right right right. At first, I think I

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Speaker 1: felt like they were linked in that way. But after

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Speaker 1: just a few months there were other rewards, you know,

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Speaker 1: and it became for me. You know, you might get

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Speaker 1: a different answer to that question if you asked her. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and that's part of what I did to her. That

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Speaker 1: was not fair. But I would never link somebody else

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Speaker 1: to the responsibility of my survival or my growth as

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Speaker 1: an individual, Like I would never do that. But I

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Speaker 1: don't think I even knew what codependent meant ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: I don't think i'd even gotten far enough to begin

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Speaker 1: to understand that I was just a mess. You know.

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Speaker 1: Your song Live Oak alludes to your concerns that in

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Speaker 1: giving up alcohol and drugs, it wouldn't just be the

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Speaker 1: bad stuff that left you, that there might be some

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Speaker 1: good stuff too that you lost in the process. Do

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Speaker 1: you mind singing some of the opening of that song

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Speaker 1: for us and then sharing more about about the nature

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Speaker 1: of this worry? Sure, yeah, no problem. Let me get

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Speaker 1: my guitar. Oh sure, and sounds okay, yeah, that's great.

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Speaker 1: All right. Here's a man who walks beside me. He

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Speaker 1: is who I used to be, and I wonder if

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Speaker 1: she sees him and infuses him with me? And I

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Speaker 1: wonder who she's buying for all nights I'm not around?

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Speaker 1: Could it be the man get the Things day? So

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Speaker 1: there's the intro of that song. I think that's probably

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Speaker 1: enough to to explain what we're talking about. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it really is kind of a murder ballad about

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Speaker 1: this guy who's trying to redeem himself after being an

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Speaker 1: outlaw and sometime in the deep past, and you know,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't succeed, and then he he wonders if you

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Speaker 1: know what version of himself was really the better version?

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00:20:08,916 --> 00:20:13,036
Speaker 1: I think for me, as time passed, I came to

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Speaker 1: terms with the idea that there were good things and

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Speaker 1: bad things about the person that I used to be.

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Speaker 1: But at first it was really hard to do because

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Speaker 1: there was a danger at every turn. I was looking

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Speaker 1: for ways to keep myself from backsliding. So I didn't

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Speaker 1: want to romanticize what my life had been for years

339
00:20:36,396 --> 00:20:40,516
Speaker 1: after getting sober, I just looked at it with this

340
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Speaker 1: that was bad and this is good, sort of you know,

341
00:20:45,236 --> 00:20:49,516
Speaker 1: binary judgment there. Yeah. And would that make you hesitant

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00:20:49,596 --> 00:20:53,916
Speaker 1: to revisit your past in your music? Yes, that need

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00:20:53,996 --> 00:20:58,436
Speaker 1: to create psychological distance between you and your former former self. Yes,

344
00:20:58,756 --> 00:21:05,156
Speaker 1: or it would reduce the work to something less complex

345
00:21:05,196 --> 00:21:08,036
Speaker 1: than it should have been. Oh, because you were you

346
00:21:08,036 --> 00:21:11,316
Speaker 1: were painting a very simplelistic model of past Jason exactly.

347
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Speaker 1: Past Jason was just awful, the worst. This is what

348
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Speaker 1: I used to be. Doesn't that suck? Isn't that terrible?

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Speaker 1: Aren't we all glad? I'm not that anymore? Yeah? I

350
00:21:21,276 --> 00:21:27,636
Speaker 1: see reductionist, yes, yes, and that itself is a lie,

351
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Speaker 1: you know, is a revisionist personal history and the way

352
00:21:31,796 --> 00:21:35,116
Speaker 1: that it's just not even true anymore. So, you know,

353
00:21:35,196 --> 00:21:38,076
Speaker 1: and I understand all of the past. It's a concept

354
00:21:38,156 --> 00:21:42,676
Speaker 1: and it's all filtered through the way we process information. However,

355
00:21:43,476 --> 00:21:48,236
Speaker 1: I think part of the creative journey and the creative

356
00:21:48,316 --> 00:21:51,116
Speaker 1: struggle is to try to see how close we can get,

357
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Speaker 1: try to remove our own processing systems from the past

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Speaker 1: and see it as clearly as possible. And that took

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Speaker 1: a long time. It took a really long time for me.

360
00:22:06,476 --> 00:22:09,196
Speaker 1: We'll hear more from Jason about his life and recovery

361
00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:11,836
Speaker 1: after the break. We'll be back in a moment with

362
00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:22,116
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans. What if you realized Jason

363
00:22:22,156 --> 00:22:26,956
Speaker 1: has stayed intact about you through your transition from from

364
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Speaker 1: alcoholic to someone you know who is now ten years sober.

365
00:22:30,676 --> 00:22:33,036
Speaker 1: And I think part of my question is you were

366
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Speaker 1: concerned at one point like did they really like that guy?

367
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Speaker 1: Like the old you know, the drunk Jason, And I'm wondering,

368
00:22:40,756 --> 00:22:43,316
Speaker 1: you know, as you straddled these two identities, right, these

369
00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:47,036
Speaker 1: two very distinct psychological states. If you realize now that

370
00:22:47,876 --> 00:22:50,436
Speaker 1: there are some fundamental parts of you that we're there then,

371
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Speaker 1: and are there now that the people around you in

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00:22:52,476 --> 00:22:56,196
Speaker 1: your life really cherish, Yes, all of it is still there.

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Speaker 1: It's all still there. That was me and this is

374
00:22:59,756 --> 00:23:04,116
Speaker 1: me only now he gets to make more decisions, you know,

375
00:23:04,316 --> 00:23:07,556
Speaker 1: rather than look up and think how did I wind

376
00:23:07,636 --> 00:23:11,036
Speaker 1: up here? You know, and I don't always make the

377
00:23:11,156 --> 00:23:14,796
Speaker 1: right decision, you know. I like to think my average

378
00:23:14,876 --> 00:23:18,156
Speaker 1: is going up as time goes on. But I'm just

379
00:23:18,516 --> 00:23:21,876
Speaker 1: able to make the decision because I don't have to

380
00:23:21,996 --> 00:23:26,036
Speaker 1: choose to get another drink or to find whatever drug

381
00:23:26,076 --> 00:23:29,796
Speaker 1: I was doing, or to be around people because they

382
00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:32,436
Speaker 1: have access to that or because they think it's okay

383
00:23:32,516 --> 00:23:35,236
Speaker 1: for me to behave that way. Like I just simply

384
00:23:35,276 --> 00:23:38,396
Speaker 1: get to make the choices for myself, Like the choice

385
00:23:38,436 --> 00:23:40,876
Speaker 1: to be loyal to my wife and to my family,

386
00:23:40,956 --> 00:23:43,996
Speaker 1: I get to make that choice, you know. Yeah, and

387
00:23:44,676 --> 00:23:46,396
Speaker 1: what time I go to bed, what time I get

388
00:23:46,476 --> 00:23:48,556
Speaker 1: up in the morning. You know how much time I

389
00:23:48,636 --> 00:23:51,796
Speaker 1: devote to my art every day. These are things that

390
00:23:51,836 --> 00:23:56,436
Speaker 1: I get to decide for myself. Now, Yeah, I'd love

391
00:23:56,476 --> 00:23:59,876
Speaker 1: to dig into the role songwriting has played in your sobriety,

392
00:23:59,916 --> 00:24:03,196
Speaker 1: because you know, it strikes me that as a songwriter,

393
00:24:03,636 --> 00:24:07,316
Speaker 1: you're kind of getting this constant pulse of where you're

394
00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:10,956
Speaker 1: at emotionally right based on based on what you're expressing

395
00:24:10,996 --> 00:24:14,476
Speaker 1: in your music or what you're finding yourself incapable of

396
00:24:14,516 --> 00:24:17,516
Speaker 1: expressing right. You're getting signals in both directions, and I

397
00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:21,516
Speaker 1: think very few of us have a profession that serves

398
00:24:21,556 --> 00:24:24,596
Speaker 1: as a mirror of sorts that that's constantly reflecting our

399
00:24:24,636 --> 00:24:27,716
Speaker 1: emotional states back to us. Well, there was a huge

400
00:24:27,716 --> 00:24:30,716
Speaker 1: shift in the reason I wrote songs around that period

401
00:24:30,716 --> 00:24:34,396
Speaker 1: of time. So when I got sober, I was very

402
00:24:35,036 --> 00:24:41,276
Speaker 1: you know, raw, like like emotionally sunburned. You know, up

403
00:24:41,356 --> 00:24:48,116
Speaker 1: until that point, I had been writing for an external audience.

404
00:24:48,516 --> 00:24:51,556
Speaker 1: I had really been writing songs to show people what

405
00:24:51,636 --> 00:24:55,436
Speaker 1: my experience was. You know, this is my family, this

406
00:24:55,516 --> 00:24:57,876
Speaker 1: is my father, this is the place where I grew up.

407
00:24:57,956 --> 00:25:03,156
Speaker 1: But then I sort of, you know, unconsciously started writing songs,

408
00:25:03,476 --> 00:25:05,236
Speaker 1: you know, where I was looking at myself and I

409
00:25:05,276 --> 00:25:08,996
Speaker 1: was trying to make some sort of estimation of who

410
00:25:09,116 --> 00:25:13,396
Speaker 1: I was and if I was doing okay. Yeah, And

411
00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:17,356
Speaker 1: that shift happened right then. And you know, I hate

412
00:25:17,396 --> 00:25:21,276
Speaker 1: the term like confessional songwriter, because I think that's very

413
00:25:21,316 --> 00:25:28,276
Speaker 1: limiting and sort of derogatory. But I think I went

414
00:25:28,396 --> 00:25:33,356
Speaker 1: from trying to communicate with the outside world to trying

415
00:25:33,436 --> 00:25:36,916
Speaker 1: to communicate with myself and trying to reflect on myself

416
00:25:36,956 --> 00:25:41,156
Speaker 1: and understand myself. Once I started doing that, that became

417
00:25:41,356 --> 00:25:45,716
Speaker 1: very addictive in itself, you know, and the reward of

418
00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:48,916
Speaker 1: that was such that I wanted to continue to do it,

419
00:25:49,036 --> 00:25:52,036
Speaker 1: and so it turned off the part of my brain

420
00:25:52,116 --> 00:25:54,476
Speaker 1: that is judging and just opened up the part of

421
00:25:54,516 --> 00:25:57,556
Speaker 1: my brain that is curious, and it just flew out,

422
00:25:57,876 --> 00:26:00,916
Speaker 1: you know, for a couple of albums after that, it

423
00:26:01,036 --> 00:26:07,196
Speaker 1: just flew out. It kind of still does. There's another

424
00:26:07,236 --> 00:26:10,956
Speaker 1: song on one of your albums called it gets Easier,

425
00:26:11,276 --> 00:26:14,076
Speaker 1: and you sing, you know, it gets easier, but it

426
00:26:14,116 --> 00:26:37,236
Speaker 1: never gets easy. It's easier, it never gets swallow. Keep

427
00:26:38,956 --> 00:26:44,396
Speaker 1: its easy. First of all, I think that resonates with

428
00:26:44,636 --> 00:26:49,516
Speaker 1: so many people, not even just those navigating addiction, but

429
00:26:49,636 --> 00:26:53,036
Speaker 1: just navigating life and the challenges of life. I think

430
00:26:53,076 --> 00:26:55,676
Speaker 1: that I found so much resonance in those lyrics. And

431
00:26:56,716 --> 00:26:59,156
Speaker 1: you know, I think this touches upon some of the

432
00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:01,676
Speaker 1: themes that we've already talked about, which is about you know,

433
00:27:01,836 --> 00:27:05,516
Speaker 1: villainizing past self and maybe glorifying present self because you're

434
00:27:05,516 --> 00:27:08,916
Speaker 1: trying to create as much distance as possible between those two, right.

435
00:27:09,756 --> 00:27:12,876
Speaker 1: I mean, it's easy to tell yourself that, oh, I

436
00:27:12,956 --> 00:27:16,236
Speaker 1: fixed it. You know it's fixed, it's solved, to go

437
00:27:16,276 --> 00:27:18,396
Speaker 1: on that kind of cruise control and think, well, I

438
00:27:18,436 --> 00:27:21,076
Speaker 1: haven't had a drink today, so I can't hurt anybody

439
00:27:21,116 --> 00:27:23,796
Speaker 1: too bad, or I can't do anything too terrible, and

440
00:27:23,916 --> 00:27:26,076
Speaker 1: you know that can stunt your growth as an adult

441
00:27:26,276 --> 00:27:29,876
Speaker 1: by saying this one big issue, like like, it's a

442
00:27:29,956 --> 00:27:33,636
Speaker 1: version of romanticizing addiction, and not necessarily in a positive way.

443
00:27:33,836 --> 00:27:35,956
Speaker 1: But if you look at it as this huge, all

444
00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:40,916
Speaker 1: encompassing beast that's in control of your life completely, well,

445
00:27:40,996 --> 00:27:43,276
Speaker 1: then you know that means the inverse of that must

446
00:27:43,276 --> 00:27:46,116
Speaker 1: also be true, you know, so you assume that, like,

447
00:27:46,356 --> 00:27:49,276
Speaker 1: if addiction is this big, huge monster that has been

448
00:27:49,276 --> 00:27:52,356
Speaker 1: in charge of your whole life, then once you've conquered

449
00:27:52,396 --> 00:27:56,196
Speaker 1: that quote unquote, you assume that the inverse is also true.

450
00:27:56,276 --> 00:27:59,036
Speaker 1: That you know, now I've solved my problem, and as

451
00:27:59,076 --> 00:28:01,276
Speaker 1: we all know, it is never as simple as I

452
00:28:01,316 --> 00:28:06,636
Speaker 1: have one problem. Yeah, having gone through you know, very

453
00:28:06,756 --> 00:28:10,276
Speaker 1: arduous time when you were you know, so often under

454
00:28:10,276 --> 00:28:13,556
Speaker 1: the influence and then and then navigating sobriety, what's the

455
00:28:13,596 --> 00:28:16,796
Speaker 1: biggest thing you learned about yourself? What's the biggest thing

456
00:28:16,796 --> 00:28:20,036
Speaker 1: that changed in terms of your self perception, your understanding

457
00:28:20,036 --> 00:28:23,836
Speaker 1: of who you are. When I got sober, I had

458
00:28:24,796 --> 00:28:31,756
Speaker 1: no idea how far I was from actually being a

459
00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:37,956
Speaker 1: satisfied and contributing member of society. I thought that, you know,

460
00:28:37,956 --> 00:28:42,156
Speaker 1: I've got a job, I entertain people. I'm able to

461
00:28:42,316 --> 00:28:44,956
Speaker 1: get in the van and rid of these shows and plays.

462
00:28:44,996 --> 00:28:47,956
Speaker 1: These should people like me. I'm funny, I have enough

463
00:28:47,996 --> 00:28:51,036
Speaker 1: money to pay my bills. You know, I'm doing great.

464
00:28:51,076 --> 00:28:53,076
Speaker 1: I'm doing a good job, you know. But I had

465
00:28:53,156 --> 00:28:56,996
Speaker 1: no clue how many millions of miles away I was

466
00:28:57,116 --> 00:29:02,036
Speaker 1: from being a satisfied and self actualized person, how much

467
00:29:02,076 --> 00:29:05,116
Speaker 1: more I had to learn about myself, because I had

468
00:29:05,156 --> 00:29:08,076
Speaker 1: just been putting that off for so long, and so

469
00:29:08,156 --> 00:29:12,316
Speaker 1: aggressively stunting my own growth because it hurts so much

470
00:29:12,356 --> 00:29:16,036
Speaker 1: to learn that I wasn't perfect. And as a flip

471
00:29:16,076 --> 00:29:19,676
Speaker 1: side to that, I didn't realize how much I would

472
00:29:19,956 --> 00:29:24,036
Speaker 1: really enjoy the process of learning those things. I mean

473
00:29:24,236 --> 00:29:27,396
Speaker 1: going to therapy, you know, and also just searching on

474
00:29:27,516 --> 00:29:32,396
Speaker 1: my own, going into every situation thinking how do I

475
00:29:32,516 --> 00:29:36,476
Speaker 1: handle this as somebody who knows myself and loves myself?

476
00:29:36,556 --> 00:29:40,436
Speaker 1: And you know, that process has been really challenging in

477
00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:43,796
Speaker 1: the best possible way for me, and it makes me

478
00:29:43,836 --> 00:29:47,556
Speaker 1: feel like at the end of every day, I attempted

479
00:29:47,596 --> 00:29:51,276
Speaker 1: to make myself better. Therefore I have attempted to make

480
00:29:51,316 --> 00:29:55,996
Speaker 1: the world better. It's so interesting what I'm hearing, and

481
00:29:56,076 --> 00:29:57,796
Speaker 1: this is reminding me of something you said earlier in

482
00:29:57,796 --> 00:30:02,356
Speaker 1: the interview. Is that the very same personality trait that

483
00:30:02,436 --> 00:30:04,756
Speaker 1: leads you to fear something that immediately want to do it,

484
00:30:04,796 --> 00:30:06,596
Speaker 1: like you did with alcohol. So the thing that got

485
00:30:06,596 --> 00:30:09,396
Speaker 1: you to become an alcoholic, which is you feared that

486
00:30:09,436 --> 00:30:11,916
Speaker 1: whole scene and then you jumped right in, is maybe

487
00:30:11,956 --> 00:30:15,236
Speaker 1: the very same instinct that led you to try and

488
00:30:15,276 --> 00:30:18,836
Speaker 1: reach self actualization, which is I imagine you were filled

489
00:30:18,876 --> 00:30:21,756
Speaker 1: with fear, Like what will I discover if I go deep?

490
00:30:21,836 --> 00:30:25,156
Speaker 1: What will I discover if I open this brain of

491
00:30:25,196 --> 00:30:30,116
Speaker 1: mine and try and probe? Maybe I'll just jump right in? Yeah, Like,

492
00:30:30,276 --> 00:30:32,996
Speaker 1: is that kind of a similar pattern that you have

493
00:30:33,196 --> 00:30:36,556
Speaker 1: that actually just conferred benefits in this case? Yeah, I

494
00:30:36,596 --> 00:30:40,036
Speaker 1: think it's the exact same thing I do. I think

495
00:30:40,076 --> 00:30:42,436
Speaker 1: that's a I don't know if anybody's made that. I

496
00:30:42,436 --> 00:30:45,756
Speaker 1: don't think anybody's made that point to me before, So

497
00:30:45,796 --> 00:30:47,956
Speaker 1: I appreciate that, but it is it is the same

498
00:30:47,996 --> 00:30:51,716
Speaker 1: exact thing. And I think some of us are the

499
00:30:51,876 --> 00:30:54,756
Speaker 1: kind of people who, you know, stand at the edge

500
00:30:54,796 --> 00:30:57,436
Speaker 1: of Niagara Falls and think, I wonder what would happen

501
00:30:57,516 --> 00:31:01,716
Speaker 1: if I jumped in? And I don't do that. You know.

502
00:31:01,836 --> 00:31:03,436
Speaker 1: So there's a few of us are the kind of

503
00:31:03,476 --> 00:31:05,516
Speaker 1: people who do jump in. That's you don't want to

504
00:31:05,516 --> 00:31:08,516
Speaker 1: be that kind either. And there's I don't even for

505
00:31:08,556 --> 00:31:10,156
Speaker 1: what it's worth. I don't even go to the edge

506
00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:12,316
Speaker 1: of the thing to look over. I'm like, yeah, behind

507
00:31:12,356 --> 00:31:15,956
Speaker 1: the guardrails some you know, fifty feet away. All right,

508
00:31:16,116 --> 00:31:19,556
Speaker 1: that's probably that's probably the healthiest way to handle the

509
00:31:19,596 --> 00:31:22,556
Speaker 1: whole situation. Like, somebody go take a picture of that

510
00:31:22,596 --> 00:31:24,236
Speaker 1: and bring it back in the show or too. I'll

511
00:31:24,276 --> 00:31:27,676
Speaker 1: just I'll just google it diagraphall's image. Okay, great, done,

512
00:31:27,716 --> 00:31:30,996
Speaker 1: I'll get a T shirt. I was doing. But some

513
00:31:31,076 --> 00:31:33,116
Speaker 1: of us have to go right up to the edge,

514
00:31:33,476 --> 00:31:36,596
Speaker 1: you know. And I am that person. I have to

515
00:31:36,636 --> 00:31:40,156
Speaker 1: go right up to the edge. And um, I've always

516
00:31:40,196 --> 00:31:42,356
Speaker 1: been that person and that's just how I am. And

517
00:31:42,396 --> 00:31:46,076
Speaker 1: so you know, I just I like to test all

518
00:31:46,076 --> 00:31:50,276
Speaker 1: those boundaries. And you know, luckily there are healthy ways

519
00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:52,956
Speaker 1: for an artist to do that. I mean, that's probably

520
00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:56,756
Speaker 1: why I'm an artist, you know. Yeah. I love when

521
00:31:57,196 --> 00:32:00,196
Speaker 1: I love when we can reinterpret what we initially code

522
00:32:00,236 --> 00:32:04,476
Speaker 1: in our lives as being liabilities and weaknesses, and then

523
00:32:04,596 --> 00:32:06,316
Speaker 1: you start to think, well, what are the flip sides

524
00:32:06,356 --> 00:32:08,956
Speaker 1: of it, like what are the benefits? And it seems

525
00:32:08,996 --> 00:32:11,196
Speaker 1: like in your case, Jason, that it would have been

526
00:32:11,236 --> 00:32:14,476
Speaker 1: so easy to say, Oh, I have this really frustrating

527
00:32:14,676 --> 00:32:17,596
Speaker 1: habit where when I fear something, I jump right in

528
00:32:17,636 --> 00:32:20,476
Speaker 1: and I can't wait to just rid myself of that instinct.

529
00:32:20,556 --> 00:32:22,156
Speaker 1: And yet here you are, in a later stage of

530
00:32:22,156 --> 00:32:25,236
Speaker 1: your life, learning that there's there's an upside and that

531
00:32:25,276 --> 00:32:28,156
Speaker 1: when you channel some of those very same instincts in

532
00:32:28,156 --> 00:32:31,996
Speaker 1: the right direction, you can you can have beautiful changes

533
00:32:31,996 --> 00:32:36,516
Speaker 1: that emerge. Right, Yeah, yeah, no, I love that. I'm

534
00:32:36,556 --> 00:32:39,596
Speaker 1: wondering if you can close us out with um the

535
00:32:39,636 --> 00:32:42,956
Speaker 1: song cover Me Up, which is a beautiful ode to

536
00:32:43,196 --> 00:32:45,956
Speaker 1: your to your wife Amanda. And yeah, I would love

537
00:32:46,036 --> 00:32:49,116
Speaker 1: to say that that this is purely because it's constant

538
00:32:49,156 --> 00:32:51,756
Speaker 1: with the show's theme, But the reality is that I'm

539
00:32:51,796 --> 00:32:53,516
Speaker 1: not going to not take advantage of the fact that

540
00:32:53,556 --> 00:32:56,436
Speaker 1: I can get serenaded by bass and isbel and so

541
00:32:56,796 --> 00:32:59,516
Speaker 1: all you slight changers listening. This is also a selfish

542
00:32:59,516 --> 00:33:01,836
Speaker 1: desire of mine. Would you see here one of my

543
00:33:01,916 --> 00:33:05,476
Speaker 1: favorite songs sung by one of my favorite musicians. All right,

544
00:33:05,516 --> 00:33:07,996
Speaker 1: I will do my best. Let me put my microphone

545
00:33:07,996 --> 00:33:10,316
Speaker 1: a little closer, and I'll in the guitar here. Let

546
00:33:10,316 --> 00:33:12,036
Speaker 1: me take one of my earboats out. Can you still

547
00:33:12,076 --> 00:33:14,596
Speaker 1: hear me? Yeah? Okay, yeah, but it's the end of

548
00:33:14,596 --> 00:33:16,356
Speaker 1: the day and my voice is warmed up and I

549
00:33:16,396 --> 00:33:45,396
Speaker 1: can but I'll do it now. Indeed, hard on girl

550
00:33:46,556 --> 00:33:55,596
Speaker 1: keep saying, hand on gone. You can't trust anymore. I

551
00:33:55,876 --> 00:34:00,636
Speaker 1: was so sure what I needed this morning, try to

552
00:34:00,756 --> 00:34:11,636
Speaker 1: shoot out sun. The day is when weird. We've such

553
00:34:11,796 --> 00:34:31,036
Speaker 1: damn what I was. Man, Hey, thanks for listening. Join

554
00:34:31,116 --> 00:34:33,956
Speaker 1: me next week when I talked with Norah McInerney, host

555
00:34:33,996 --> 00:34:37,996
Speaker 1: to the podcast Terrible, Thanks for asking. Nora lost her

556
00:34:38,036 --> 00:34:40,916
Speaker 1: husband to brain cancer in twenty fourteen, and in the

557
00:34:40,996 --> 00:34:44,116
Speaker 1: months and years following his death, Norah found comfort and

558
00:34:44,196 --> 00:34:48,036
Speaker 1: meaning and helping others navigate their grief. People started to

559
00:34:48,076 --> 00:34:51,356
Speaker 1: see her as a grief duela of sorts. Over time,

560
00:34:51,396 --> 00:34:55,436
Speaker 1: these responsibilities began to mount, and Norah felt overwhelmed, but

561
00:34:55,516 --> 00:34:58,116
Speaker 1: she didn't think she had a way out. Are you

562
00:34:58,156 --> 00:35:02,116
Speaker 1: allowed to quit anything? Winners number quarters, number win Although

563
00:35:02,156 --> 00:35:03,916
Speaker 1: it wasn't going to win the Best Widow Award, I

564
00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:07,636
Speaker 1: don't know. I felt. I think in a lot of

565
00:35:07,716 --> 00:35:14,596
Speaker 1: ways like I had inadvertently built this identity that had

566
00:35:14,676 --> 00:35:28,276
Speaker 1: become a cage for me. A Slight Change of Plans

567
00:35:28,396 --> 00:35:31,636
Speaker 1: is created, written an executive produced by me Maya Shunker.

568
00:35:32,196 --> 00:35:35,716
Speaker 1: The Slight Change Family includes our senior producer Tyler Greene,

569
00:35:36,076 --> 00:35:40,236
Speaker 1: our producer and fact checker Emily Rosteck, our editors Kate

570
00:35:40,276 --> 00:35:43,956
Speaker 1: Parkinson Morgan and Jen Guera, and our sound engineers Ben

571
00:35:44,036 --> 00:35:48,996
Speaker 1: holliday In Andrew Veastola. Louis Gara wrote our delightful theme song,

572
00:35:49,196 --> 00:35:52,356
Speaker 1: and Ginger Smith helped to range the vocals. A Slight

573
00:35:52,436 --> 00:35:55,316
Speaker 1: Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, so

574
00:35:55,476 --> 00:35:58,876
Speaker 1: big thanks to everyone there, and of course a very

575
00:35:58,956 --> 00:36:02,196
Speaker 1: special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow a Slight

576
00:36:02,276 --> 00:36:06,036
Speaker 1: Change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maya Schunker. See

577
00:36:06,036 --> 00:37:01,116
Speaker 1: you next week, Cover me up? No use? Is it good?

578
00:37:02,076 --> 00:37:05,316
Speaker 1: Was it okay? Oh my god? It was beautiful? Okay?

579
00:37:05,476 --> 00:37:09,316
Speaker 1: Thank you? Life is made everyone, Life is made. What

580
00:37:09,436 --> 00:37:09,796
Speaker 1: thank you