Speaker 1: It's time now for another episode of Pats from the
Speaker 1: Past podcast, where we traveled down memory lane with the
Speaker 1: former Patriot great and who better to join us today
Speaker 1: than number thirty two CJ. Craig James, the OG member
Speaker 1: of the Pony Express, right along with Eric Dickerson, absolute,
Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about because how can you
Speaker 1: talk to Craig James without talking about that before?
Speaker 2: It's Patriots career.
Speaker 3: Anything that gets me back to high school, Matt. That's Greatreig,
Speaker 3: thanks for joining us, man.
Speaker 2: This is going a privilege. You know, I walk in
Speaker 2: this stadium and I'm cracking up because I'm back in
Speaker 2: the eighties, right, And when I walked up to Sullivan Stadium,
Speaker 2: you know, we didn't have no film room like this, right,
Speaker 2: weren't even the thought back then. Right. But Craig, you
Speaker 2: said you were here last June. Explain that. Why were
Speaker 2: you here for Tom Brady Day? Well, I got to
Speaker 2: get the invitation to come in for the Brady celebration,
Speaker 2: which was just remarkable. But I wanted to see Dante
Speaker 2: Scornekia because Scar and I we were back together, SMU.
Speaker 2: He was here when I was playing for the Patriots.
Speaker 2: He was you know, like a legend. He's been here
Speaker 2: since before Billy Sullivan bought the team. Right, Scar's just
Speaker 2: one of those legendary guys and I got a chance
Speaker 2: to speak with him and see him. But what a
Speaker 2: great night that was. I was so proud to be
Speaker 2: an alum. What a privilege to be a part of
Speaker 2: the Patriots organization. I sent a handwritten note to mister
Speaker 2: Kraft and just said, man, what an awesome night and
Speaker 2: a display of the fans. The fans here in New
Speaker 2: England showed off last year. Absolutely.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we were really happy with the way that whole
Speaker 3: night because a lot of people in the organization had
Speaker 3: a lot of things, a lot, you know, a lot
Speaker 3: to do with that. So we felt like that was
Speaker 3: a really strong night for the entire organization. And I'm
Speaker 3: glad that so many you know, alums came back for that.
Speaker 3: There was a lot of people from a lot of
Speaker 3: different areas that took part in that, and I.
Speaker 4: Think it was a huge success.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's it's like I had a chance
Speaker 2: to see Tony Collins and Doug Flute and a bunch
Speaker 2: of my teammates that I had not seen in years.
Speaker 2: You know, you have to walk up nowadays, forty years
Speaker 2: later and say, hey, Craig James, see who are you.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what, Craig, I'm not like. You don't
Speaker 1: look a little bit different. You look like Craig James.
Speaker 1: Maybe so maybe your hair is a little lighter, but
Speaker 1: that's about it. I was joking with you before we
Speaker 1: started that Eric could give you ten or fifteen steps.
Speaker 1: I wonder if there's a half back option play that
Speaker 1: you know, no, maybe one that you could do, if
Speaker 1: you know, pitch it out there. I think it could
Speaker 1: probably still get a first down off of that kind
Speaker 1: of shit.
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. I'd be really good with pregame,
Speaker 2: warm up and go. If somebody hit me, I would cry,
Speaker 2: that's funny, like I said, to kick things off.
Speaker 1: I think people here in New England are somewhat versed
Speaker 1: on the legend of how it began. But the idea
Speaker 1: that two kids who went to high school in Texas
Speaker 1: to the best at their position could be recruited and
Speaker 1: play for the same college and be so prolific. I mean,
Speaker 1: that story never gets old, does it. The Pony Express
Speaker 1: at SMU with you and Eric Dickerson.
Speaker 2: We've been nearly fifty years friends, We love each other,
Speaker 2: were like brothers and the fact that now we can
Speaker 2: look back on it and realize what we did was
Speaker 2: really unique. And someone asked me, the media made a
Speaker 2: big deal about it. I had won the Vincelentbardi NFL
Speaker 2: Offensive Player of the Year the year after Eric had
Speaker 2: been the NFL MVP, and they said, how did two
Speaker 2: guys go to the same team in Dallas at SMU.
Speaker 2: How did that happen? I said, well, it was Dallas,
Speaker 2: it was Ron Meyer, head coach at the time, a
Speaker 2: lot of energy. But it just, you know, as Eric
Speaker 2: and I say the Pony Express, we were better together.
Speaker 3: So did you ever have any trepidation, you know, being
Speaker 3: a running back, there's only one guy that's going to
Speaker 3: get to carry. I'm sure that both you and Eric
Speaker 3: felt like you were the man coming out of high school.
Speaker 3: Was there any concerns that you were going to be
Speaker 3: able to share the backfield together and be as successful
Speaker 3: as you were?
Speaker 2: He had rushed for over two thousand yards as a senior.
Speaker 2: We were in different classifications in Texas. Both of our
Speaker 2: teams had one state championships, so we both thought we
Speaker 2: were pretty good. We're both all Americans. We get to
Speaker 2: smu ron Meyer made it work, you know. He convinced
Speaker 2: us that you guys are going to be fresher for
Speaker 2: your twenty carries each per game. I think he averaged twenty,
Speaker 2: averaged nineteen, and so now that we look back on it,
Speaker 2: it really helped. Eric says it tremendously that it helped
Speaker 2: him prolong his career. He wouldn't beat up when he
Speaker 2: got there, so he was able to play longer, and so, yeah,
Speaker 2: we could have been selfish, but we also recognized that
Speaker 2: in the third and fourth quarter defenses were worn out,
Speaker 2: and Eric and I had to say to each other
Speaker 2: on the sideline, Hey, they're dragging, they're tired. We got
Speaker 2: him and you just couldn't keep up with both of us.
Speaker 2: It's kind of raird, though, isn't it.
Speaker 1: I mean, like to your part, like there's not too
Speaker 1: many people who are the guy who are going and
Speaker 1: some going to be the guy and I that can
Speaker 1: subjugate their ego and say, I think it might be
Speaker 1: better for the team, for our careers and everything physically
Speaker 1: like that to split this.
Speaker 2: We were friends. Had we not been friends, it would
Speaker 2: have never worked. There, you go, it's truly. I mean
Speaker 2: we have never had one cross word with each other,
Speaker 2: no bad thought even to this day. And so other
Speaker 2: than when he beats me really bad. And golf, the
Speaker 2: great golf.
Speaker 3: So the thing that I like about this is is
Speaker 3: it sort of starts and the reason why the Pony
Speaker 3: Express is obviously a really interesting story for a lot
Speaker 3: of reasons and a lot of people, but for the
Speaker 3: Patriots specifically, Ron Meyer is there and he ends up
Speaker 3: coming to New England, and we talked about Dante a
Speaker 3: little bit like it's like kind of like that first
Speaker 3: chapter of the story for the Patriots, like Ron Meyer,
Speaker 3: what did he mean to you? You know, at SMU
Speaker 3: and then when he ends up coming here and you
Speaker 3: eventually come as well.
Speaker 2: Ron Meyer was not an X and xCE and O guy.
Speaker 2: I mean, he knew he knew football, but he was
Speaker 2: a talent guy, and he knew he knew great assistant coaches,
Speaker 2: and he had a staff that was phenomenal. Steve said, well,
Speaker 2: Dante's Garnetki, there was a whole all of them were
Speaker 2: world class coaches, assistant coaches, and he made them make
Speaker 2: sure we knew what we were doing as athletes. And
Speaker 2: he knew an athlete, and so he knew what you
Speaker 2: could or could not do, and he'd put you in
Speaker 2: position to have success. And so Ron really had a
Speaker 2: you know, Unfortunately, him getting fired, you know, led to
Speaker 2: Raymond Berry, which was a blessing for the organization. But
Speaker 2: Ron got it started, you know, with the assistant coaches
Speaker 2: that he brought in here, like Dante Scarnekia, who's in the.
Speaker 1: Team Hall of Fame, who's had an unbelievable career. Craig
Speaker 1: could did you see some of that? Did you as
Speaker 1: a kid who's played at college, did you see this
Speaker 1: world class coaching staff? And then specifically what did Scar
Speaker 1: help meet you for the two years that you and
Speaker 1: Dante were together at SMU.
Speaker 2: I don't think as a young athlete that you appreciate
Speaker 2: what the coach is doing until that's not happening, and
Speaker 2: then especially when you get down the road and you
Speaker 2: can look back and reflect and say, well, why don't
Speaker 2: we doing this? Nothing against the system when I came
Speaker 2: in here as a rookie, but we had a really
Speaker 2: hard time, very complicated pass protection scheme. I've got Sam,
Speaker 2: I've got strong safety here. I've got that, But if
Speaker 2: then I've got that when you get a football player
Speaker 2: thinking you've got problems, you got sacks, and so Scar
Speaker 2: cleaned that up. He just said, look, let's let's simplify
Speaker 2: this thing. Let's make sure we know who we're gonna lock.
Speaker 2: If you can't do that, then you can't be successful.
Speaker 2: So as I look back on it now, the assistant
Speaker 2: coaches that Ron Meyer had and that Raymond Berry had,
Speaker 2: that Belichick had, every one of them had a job
Speaker 2: and a role and a responsibility. They were really good
Speaker 2: at it. You got to have Jimmy's, you got to
Speaker 2: have the Joe's, but you got to have the coaches.
Speaker 3: So when you came out of SMU and decide to,
Speaker 3: you know, to get into the draft, it was USFL first.
Speaker 4: I think it was the Washington Federals.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 4: What was behind that decision.
Speaker 2: To go that had zero I had been told by
Speaker 2: my agent that this USFL was going to have a draft.
Speaker 2: A few days after we played in the Cotton Bowl,
Speaker 2: I'd gone home to Houston. I get a phone call
Speaker 2: from my agent. He says, hey, they select you the
Speaker 2: fourth player taken in the USFL draft. Wow, okay, he said,
Speaker 2: we have to go to Washington out of respect. Let's
Speaker 2: let's go up out of respect. Within moments of being
Speaker 2: around this ownership group in Washington, I realized they were
Speaker 2: very serious about what they were doing, and it was
Speaker 2: there was significantly more money than I would have been slided.
Speaker 2: I knew it was gonna be a first rounder in
Speaker 2: the NFL, or was projected to be. But I was like,
Speaker 2: I like the idea of pioneering. You know, it was
Speaker 2: a great spirit. There was a ton of great football
Speaker 2: players obviously absolutely went to the USF Yeah, I'm glad
Speaker 2: that happened because it led me to playing for New
Speaker 2: England had I not played there where ron Then they
Speaker 2: started taking USFL players in the seventh round so that
Speaker 2: they would have the rights for us if that league boobed.
Speaker 2: And to thank God that I was able to get
Speaker 2: away from there and to play for the New England Patriots.
Speaker 2: So it was a blessing.
Speaker 1: Because the Federals, like most of the teams in the
Speaker 1: USFL and eventually the entire league, they ran out of
Speaker 1: dough Right, you get hurt in Washington, and Meyer amongst
Speaker 1: other people again in the National Football League, had the
Speaker 1: foresight to go So wonder if some of these USFL guys,
Speaker 1: how long is this going to last? It was the
Speaker 1: Meyer drafting you in the seventh round. Well, you're not
Speaker 1: a seventh round draft pick, but that's an insurance policy
Speaker 1: over here?
Speaker 2: Is that kind of yeah? Maybe how that was lucated?
Speaker 2: For sure? It was good for me because I knew
Speaker 2: that if it didn't work out in the USFL, well,
Speaker 2: I was going to go to New England. And for Ron,
Speaker 2: he had a guy that he knew about and that
Speaker 2: what I could do with my talents. And so they
Speaker 2: started taking the Jim kellyes and herschel Walker's and all
Speaker 2: the great players that were in the USFL started going
Speaker 2: in the seventh round and they had our rights.
Speaker 3: What was it like playing in the USFL? I mean
Speaker 3: when it originally started. You know, people look at all
Speaker 3: the spring leagues now that are sort of struggling to
Speaker 3: but the USFL was in a much higher level than
Speaker 3: the spring leagues.
Speaker 4: Now, what was it like playing in it?
Speaker 2: Oh man? We had a lot of really good players,
Speaker 2: not on the Washington the worst team I ever played on.
Speaker 2: Half of my teammates and just got out of jail.
Speaker 2: The other half are on their way to prison. But
Speaker 2: it was a league full of talent, But there was
Speaker 2: a discrepancy in spending amongst the organizations right so that
Speaker 2: there was not enough quality for that to happen. And
Speaker 2: then they wanted to go and jump beyond and try
Speaker 2: to challenge the NFL, et cetera. And it fell apart.
Speaker 2: But there were a lot of note were they great
Speaker 2: football players that came through the USFL.
Speaker 1: So you're drafted by the Patriots in the seventh round,
Speaker 1: you get hurt your contractor is it that they is
Speaker 1: it that the Federals disband? How does how do you
Speaker 1: go from Washington knowing that the Patriots have your rights
Speaker 1: at that point in time in eighty four.
Speaker 2: Craig So it was a very legal move, legalistic move there.
Speaker 2: They had my rights, but they but the USFL was
Speaker 2: just waiting for someone to try to pluck away one
Speaker 2: of their players. So we had to have every USFL
Speaker 2: owners sign off on a waiver that said, hey, we're
Speaker 2: not going to sue you New England if you work
Speaker 2: a deal out with Craig to leave the Federals. I
Speaker 2: had to travel under an assumed name. I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: we were meeting in places that were secretive. It was
Speaker 2: a big deal. Uh, I think Roger Goodell may have
Speaker 2: been on the on the legal team. Paul Tagliabu was
Speaker 2: like all year for the NFL before the commissioner role,
Speaker 2: and so there was a lot of behind the scenes
Speaker 2: things that happened legally to allow that to happen. But
Speaker 2: it got Washington off the hook. They ended up going
Speaker 2: down to Orlando, I believe, and but it kept them going,
Speaker 2: got relieved them of my financial debt. And the Patriots
Speaker 2: assume that.
Speaker 1: Was that unsettling as a kid, because you just want
Speaker 1: to play football. You're coming off of an injury, like
Speaker 1: I want to get back, I want to do things,
Speaker 1: but there's all this maneuvering that has to happen in
Speaker 1: order for you.
Speaker 2: To get there. Yeah, I remember, I asked, Remember a
Speaker 2: guy named Koy Bacon played for the Races. Yea. So
Speaker 2: here I was twenty one years old and Washington in
Speaker 2: a locker room with a guy that he looked like
Speaker 2: he was fifty and I knew he'd played twenty years
Speaker 2: of the NFL football. And I said, mister Bacon, I said,
Speaker 2: is this really like pro football? And he goes, you're
Speaker 2: getting paid, ain't you, kid? I go, well, there are
Speaker 2: rumors that that has been happening in the previous four
Speaker 2: years too at SMU.
Speaker 1: Right, he cracked up, right, Well, I think that that's
Speaker 1: always Like we were joking about this the other day.
Speaker 1: You know, you had to take a page to take
Speaker 1: a pay cut to go to either the washing NFL ATA.
Speaker 2: We had to report it, right, So we were the
Speaker 2: UNI L before the ni L.
Speaker 3: Now everything everything you guys did, this is it's all
Speaker 3: about boy Now.
Speaker 2: I mean, we could go a whole show just in
Speaker 2: college football and the and the whole n IL world.
Speaker 2: But but good for the players are finally getting taken
Speaker 2: care of and compensated. It's it's a it's a scramble
Speaker 2: out there right now. And they've got a corral a
Speaker 2: little bit.
Speaker 4: Did you get a car that was as nice as error?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: But but I'm not going to say I was riding
Speaker 2: a horse either.
Speaker 3: So the difference is obviously you had the connection with
Speaker 3: Ron Meyer, but you know he was only hear what
Speaker 3: half that season, right?
Speaker 4: So what was it like? What were the differences between
Speaker 4: he and Ray Berry?
Speaker 2: Oddly enough, Ron being my coach here was a negative
Speaker 2: to me. Really, it really hurt me. I came in
Speaker 2: and competed in training camp, and I thought that I
Speaker 2: had beat out Tony Collins, who was an All Pro
Speaker 2: and a great runner h and a locker room favorite.
Speaker 2: But I thought I had won that job in that position,
Speaker 2: and it just ate me up that I wasn't getting
Speaker 2: the carries that I wanted. And I understood Royn's position. Hey,
Speaker 2: if I put my college kid in there over my
Speaker 2: locker room favorite and leader and a really good player
Speaker 2: in Tony Collins, you know I'm going to lose my
Speaker 2: locker room. So I understood that Ron got fired. We're
Speaker 2: on the flight to Denver Raymondberry's first game and he
Speaker 2: walks to me on the plane. He says, hey, you're
Speaker 2: starting tomorrow. I started run for one hundred and twenty
Speaker 2: yards and eight hundred yards in the second half, averaged
Speaker 2: four to nine a carry. I have no doubt in
Speaker 2: my mind if I'd have been a starter. This is
Speaker 2: nothing against Tony Collins. Tony Collins was a great football player,
Speaker 2: great running back. I'd ran for sixteen to eighteen hundred
Speaker 2: yards that rookie year because we had it going on
Speaker 2: as an offensive line that particular season.
Speaker 1: Did you get a sense in eighty four as you're
Speaker 1: becoming a little bit more of a central figure in
Speaker 1: the offense. Hey, we got something here, you know, were
Speaker 1: they're building blocks and a foundation that you believe were
Speaker 1: laid towards that second half of the eighty four season
Speaker 1: that would help you to find that eighty five team.
Speaker 2: I think it was really in the coaches hands to
Speaker 2: figure out exactly what are we going to be. They
Speaker 2: had seen that we were a powerful team that we
Speaker 2: believe we could run the ball and if it was
Speaker 2: third and one, we were going to do it. We
Speaker 2: didn't need the toush push. We ran the football right.
Speaker 2: Steve Brogan or Tony Easton would ask us, how can
Speaker 2: we get this on third and two? Yes, we can.
Speaker 2: So I think we had to make a decision in
Speaker 2: eighty five. We had all these weapons out there, receivers
Speaker 2: irving for our Stanley Morgan, all these great players, all
Speaker 2: these runners, Tony Collins, Craig James, mostly the TUPA. We
Speaker 2: got all these players, Dawson and Tighten. What are we
Speaker 2: going to be? And when we decided that we were
Speaker 2: going to be a physical, running football team, that's when
Speaker 2: we took over and we made our way to the
Speaker 2: Super Bowl.
Speaker 3: So was there a time in eighty five was there
Speaker 3: a game that maybe you guys said, Okay, this is different.
Speaker 3: We're a little bit better, we can do something. You know,
Speaker 3: you win eleven games in eighty five, but was there
Speaker 3: a moment in that season where you said, okay, this
Speaker 3: is a playoff team and we're as good as all
Speaker 3: these other teams.
Speaker 2: Now. I think just as you go along and you
Speaker 2: start playing and having success, and especially on the road,
Speaker 2: I think the inner confidence that we had that we
Speaker 2: were physical and good. We knew we had a great defense,
Speaker 2: like a really good defense. We had really good special teams.
Speaker 2: We had guys playing roles that were turning the ball
Speaker 2: over for us. I think the more it just was
Speaker 2: a snowball, it just kept getting bigger and bigger. And so, yeah,
Speaker 2: we got beat bad by Chicago in Chicago earlier in
Speaker 2: that season. Really, you know, it wasn't too bad. You
Speaker 2: had a play I had yet, And so Richard Dent
Speaker 2: I have become friends with and been around more than
Speaker 2: when we played, and he always give me a hard time.
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, but Richard, it seems like I still
Speaker 2: remember that. I think I owned the Soldier Field's longest
Speaker 2: past reception touchdown in the history ninety yards.
Speaker 3: That was the longest Patriots touchdown for a long time,
Speaker 3: absolutely ninety yard touchdown.
Speaker 1: Craig, you mentioned physicality, and you had also talked about
Speaker 1: you know that you were here for the Brady event.
Speaker 1: And I don't know why I find this interesting. There's
Speaker 1: no question who the greatest player in franchise history is
Speaker 1: for the Patriots, and that Tom Brady. But I think
Speaker 1: there's an interesting debate as to who's number two, and
Speaker 1: then therefore because who's number three? And they both played
Speaker 1: with you in my opinion on that team, Let's talk
Speaker 1: about first the guy who helped you offensively, John Hannah.
Speaker 1: Is there a better guard in the history of the
Speaker 1: National Football League than hockey.
Speaker 2: When you start talking about it, arguably, he has got
Speaker 2: to be in the conversation. A big, big man of beast,
Speaker 2: tenacious and did it week in and week out. We're
Speaker 2: playing at Denver the game that I started, that first
Speaker 2: game that I started, John had been in the hospital
Speaker 2: during the week and Pete Brock said that John never
Speaker 2: missed practices. It just never happened, and so we couldn't
Speaker 2: believe he wasn't there. He met us on the tarmac
Speaker 2: at the airport, walks out of like an ambulatory van
Speaker 2: with an ivy bottle hooked up to him, and he
Speaker 2: walks up the deal and gets on the plane, leaves
Speaker 2: his ivy stuck in him right there, flies to Denver,
Speaker 2: and I ran behind him for most of those one
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty yards that day.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't surprise you about him, does it. That's
Speaker 1: the kind of guy he is.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah. He He made everybody around him better
Speaker 2: because he demanded it if you didn't do your job.
Speaker 2: Brian Holloway was a great player because John Hannah made
Speaker 2: sure Brian played. Brian did not want to hear from
Speaker 2: John Hannah. So who's the other one in contention? Paul Tip?
Speaker 2: So Tippett. I'm so glad Tip. He really liked me,
Speaker 2: especially in two days that way when we did the
Speaker 2: one on one pass waking drill running back in a linebacker,
Speaker 2: the most idiotic drill ever a lot. There's no threat
Speaker 2: of a run or right, it's a bad drill. All
Speaker 2: good for the linebacker. They don't have to worry about anything.
Speaker 2: They just just blow you up. Tip would take it
Speaker 2: easy on and he would beat me. But it was
Speaker 2: just see so Andre Tippett was ever bit as good
Speaker 2: as Lawrence Taylor. Lawrence Taylor lived in New York and
Speaker 2: at that time with all that big New York media,
Speaker 2: but lt was a great player, similar size. You couldn't
Speaker 2: run away from him. You couldn't run away from Andre Tippet.
Speaker 2: Tip was a great player. And I'm glad to say
Speaker 2: hear you say he's one of those three in your
Speaker 2: mind about the greatest players. I think.
Speaker 1: I think it's a really interesting battle between Again, give
Speaker 1: Brady his flowers, and he was well deserved, But after him,
Speaker 1: is it Hannah, is it Tippin that it's probably about
Speaker 1: like what flavor ice cream do you like better? A
Speaker 1: Hall of Famer defender of famers or a Hall of
Speaker 1: Fame offensive line?
Speaker 3: A little biased because you know he works upstairs. Right,
Speaker 3: we're still a little just a little bit afraid of them.
Speaker 3: Absolutely we should be.
Speaker 2: I still but I see Lawrence Taylors somewhere. I don't
Speaker 2: like to go up to him. He had a tackle
Speaker 2: on him the first tackle. We were here playing a
Speaker 2: game and he makes the first tackle on me, and
Speaker 2: it was like a twelve yard game, and he gave
Speaker 2: me a little bit of a thigh bruise, but he
Speaker 2: stood up and said something. I go, that's all right,
Speaker 2: I'll be back. And I was like, man, I hope
Speaker 2: you didn't do me. Did you just piss him off?
Speaker 1: You know, the running back position today, Craig has been
Speaker 1: a little bit undervalued.
Speaker 2: Everybody throws the ball, Paul loves it.
Speaker 1: It's had a little bit of a renaissance last year
Speaker 1: with Barkley, Derek Henry and things like that. But I
Speaker 1: look back at that eighty five team and you mentioned
Speaker 1: some of these guys. You were the leading rusher on
Speaker 1: the eighty five team, But it's Robert Weathers, it's Tony Collins,
Speaker 1: it's Mosey Totupu, it's you.
Speaker 2: Like.
Speaker 1: It wasn't running back by committee. But you were a
Speaker 1: lot of different tools in the bag. The coaching staff
Speaker 1: had a lot of different tools in the bag. They
Speaker 1: could beat you a lot of different ways. And we
Speaker 1: might have seen how that worked in the AC Championship game.
Speaker 2: Would you guess against the Dolphins? Great analogy. We kind
Speaker 2: of had our short yardage goal line package, which was Robert,
Speaker 2: and mostly they'd commit TC and I'd come out. We
Speaker 2: had certain packages that worked really well as a team,
Speaker 2: a selfless team. You know, you had to have that
Speaker 2: kind of mentality to make that thing work. But the
Speaker 2: fact that we had so many different players and each
Speaker 2: one had a role, and you know, you had the
Speaker 2: Belichick way that came after our way. You know, I
Speaker 2: always looked at our eighty five team in this way.
Speaker 2: It was an honor to be a part of a
Speaker 2: team that Billy Sullivan was still here with and founded
Speaker 2: and his son was the general manager. We got smoked
Speaker 2: in the Super Bowl. We got there. We showed that
Speaker 2: this organization, these coaches, this front office, you can get there.
Speaker 2: The players will be gone, but there'll be different people here.
Speaker 2: You have to knock on the door. You have to
Speaker 2: open the door before you can run through the door.
Speaker 2: And that led the way for a lot of teams
Speaker 2: and the successes that they had down the road. I
Speaker 2: think our team really opened the door for belief that
Speaker 2: it can happen.
Speaker 3: Can you take us a little bit on that road,
Speaker 3: you know, the ride of those three games, you know,
Speaker 3: three games on the road, first team, you know, to
Speaker 3: do that and make it to the Super Bowl. What
Speaker 3: was it like when that that got started? Where was
Speaker 3: the confidence level for you? Guys, because you entered the postseason.
Speaker 2: Raymond Barry had a really cool saying about you know,
Speaker 2: he goes, hey, all right, men, he go you know, men,
Speaker 2: and his fingers were crooked from his plan days. He goes,
Speaker 2: he goes, he goes, what's the what are we looking
Speaker 2: at when we look at the at the at the
Speaker 2: bullseye and you know, well, you're shooting an arrow. Well
Speaker 2: you're looking at the bullseye. No, no, you got to
Speaker 2: look at the center of the bullseye. And he was
Speaker 2: really big on focus. Focus. We have one game this week.
Speaker 2: We're gonna go play the New York Jets. That's it.
Speaker 2: We're gonna go play the New York Jets. And a
Speaker 2: lot of coaches preach this stuff and say these things,
Speaker 2: but they but they don't live this thing. Raymond Berry
Speaker 2: was focused on the center of the bullseye and so
Speaker 2: therefore it was contagious amongst the players. And then we
Speaker 2: had that confidence because we had a great defense, we
Speaker 2: had a great special teams, and we had a great offense.
Speaker 2: We could run the football, so we had everything that
Speaker 2: was needed for the team to do really well.
Speaker 3: So when you start you talk about the special teams
Speaker 3: because it just seemed like every week some of them
Speaker 3: was mishandling a kick, Like do you start to think, hey,
Speaker 3: it's destiny.
Speaker 4: We're supposed to be winning these games.
Speaker 3: We're you know, because the Patriots, our whole lives, always
Speaker 3: found a way to get hit by the train when
Speaker 3: you know, you got to the light at the end
Speaker 3: of the tunnel. And that was the one time where
Speaker 3: now all the breaks are going the Patriots way. There's
Speaker 3: no mystery flag taking away a big play, but it's
Speaker 3: Jim Bowman recovering fumbles and you guys forcing these Johnny Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean it started with the Jets game and just
Speaker 3: continued with the Raiders and right on.
Speaker 4: You know, I think Miami, still in Miami, just turned
Speaker 4: it over again in the as you.
Speaker 2: Get in the head of your opponent because you've got
Speaker 2: this reputation of creating turnovers. So now you're you're playing us,
Speaker 2: You're sitting every thing. Am I gonna be the guy
Speaker 2: that's gonna fumble this thing? Am I gonna turn it over?
Speaker 2: I'm gonna miss a block that causes a fumble, strip
Speaker 2: sig and so you get in their head. We had
Speaker 2: a fumble drill at every practice that Raymond did, and
Speaker 2: you had to pick up two balls. Every everybody on
Speaker 2: the team they dropped the ball, you had to fall
Speaker 2: on it. And and it made us become instinctive, you know,
Speaker 2: second nature. You fall on the ball, pick it up.
Speaker 2: I'm sure nowadays said a lot of coaches do that
Speaker 2: with a fumble drill, But for us, it was like saying,
Speaker 2: it was instincts. Balls on the ground, you're on the ball,
Speaker 2: you know, And so it paid off.
Speaker 1: I don't think today's Patriot fan can understand the importance
Speaker 1: of going into the Orange Bowl in the AFC Championship game.
Speaker 1: You know, we talked today about Mile High Stadium and
Speaker 1: you know, Joe Robbie, I call it still or whatever
Speaker 1: they call it this week, hard Rock Stadium in Miami.
Speaker 1: It's never been a great place for the Patriots to play.
Speaker 1: You had lost in a heartbreaker in the regular season
Speaker 1: down there, we had that game won, and it's just like, well,
Speaker 1: they're not going to be able to go down in Miami.
Speaker 1: This is Marino, it's you know, duper, it's Clayton and
Speaker 1: everything like that did how big was that game? And
Speaker 1: was your confidence in there? You know what, we've been
Speaker 1: able to play with these guys. We should have won
Speaker 1: the game in the regular season. We're gonna beat them
Speaker 1: this time.
Speaker 2: Wasn't it like eighteen years or something. Yeah, it was
Speaker 2: like a long time. It's like you're going to go
Speaker 2: lose in the Orange Squiz the Fish the fish Man.
Speaker 2: There was a pep rally, the magnitude of the importance
Speaker 2: to the fans and to us. Yeah. Some guy came
Speaker 2: up to me and he had had tattooed on his deal,
Speaker 2: you know, Craig James. He goes squish the fish. I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, dude, right right. But we get down there.
Speaker 2: Before we got down there, we knew we were going
Speaker 2: to beat them, and they knew we were going to
Speaker 2: beat them. Dan Marino said, he he said, I can't
Speaker 2: believe you guys beat us, and said, we had no
Speaker 2: doubt in our mind we were going to physically beat you.
Speaker 2: Exactly what happened. We're not going to take that game
Speaker 2: from us. And that was the kind of attitude. I
Speaker 2: remember the exuberance, the excitement that we had after the game,
Speaker 2: dancing on the sideline, and I remember saying, man, we
Speaker 2: got one more game.
Speaker 1: Man, Let's go do this one more time to get
Speaker 1: to that place, though, Craig, you were doing it. You
Speaker 1: talked about all the weapons that you had, the physicality
Speaker 1: of the offensive line, the great defense. I don't recall
Speaker 1: it being controversial, but Grogan played and Easton played, and
Speaker 1: I'm sure that there was an Easton camp, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure there was a Grogan camp. But somehow, some way,
Speaker 1: Raymonds would have helped massage that to get you to
Speaker 1: the Super Bowl that year.
Speaker 2: I think hats off to those two guys for them
Speaker 2: not causing a stink about it, you know. I mean,
Speaker 2: Steve and Tony were both outstanding quarterbacks in their own way.
Speaker 2: Tony Easton was a really talented quarterback, you know, and
Speaker 2: just he was a great player. Steve Grogan was Steve Grogan,
Speaker 2: you know what. Steve again, one year he would walk
Speaker 2: in the huddle and they let him call the plays
Speaker 2: as well. He should have probably had that kind of
Speaker 2: hell instincts. Yeah, and he knew us. He could feel
Speaker 2: it in the game. So we had two really good quarterbacks.
Speaker 2: But I think any championship team I was blessed to
Speaker 2: bet on a state championship in Texas in high school,
Speaker 2: arguably the best team I ever played on the really
Speaker 2: good team, college championship teams, and then the NFL playing
Speaker 2: on an AFC championship team. Every one of those teams
Speaker 2: had a common denominator selfless team. Teams win, individuals don't win.
Speaker 1: I think I still have the T shirt, probably buried
Speaker 1: someplace in a closet to bury the Bears T shirts.
Speaker 2: You remember bury the Bears.
Speaker 1: So you talked about your confidence going into the AFT
Speaker 1: Championship game against Miami. This Bears team in hindsight my words, No,
Speaker 1: I'm not asking you know, I am going to ask you.
Speaker 1: That's the best NFL team I think I've seen in
Speaker 1: my lifetime. Where was your confidence level? You lost to
Speaker 1: him close in the regular season, but what was that
Speaker 1: two week peer we'd like knowing that you're going up
Speaker 1: against the vaunted Chicago Bears.
Speaker 2: Going back and looking looking at at the moments of
Speaker 2: that leading up to that game, I wish I had
Speaker 2: known how long the pregame was, of how all of
Speaker 2: the stuff. I mean we knew coming out of the
Speaker 2: AFC Championship game the next week here in Foxville, the
Speaker 2: number of media attention was phenomenal. I mean it was
Speaker 2: cameras everywhere. So we knew that was there. We had
Speaker 2: great confidence that we were going to go down there
Speaker 2: and run the football. And when Lynn Dawson got hurt
Speaker 2: and took away one of our tight ends first down,
Speaker 2: when we couldn't go too tight and run the football,
Speaker 2: they would have stopped us two out of four times.
Speaker 2: But those other two times we'd have got them and
Speaker 2: we've been we'd have been a much better game. Different game. Uh,
Speaker 2: don't take anything from Chicago Bears. They were a great team,
Speaker 2: had the unique defense, the four to six, They had
Speaker 2: the right personalities in place for all of that. But
Speaker 2: I remember during the week We're in New Orleans and
Speaker 2: I kept hearing Jim McMahon and the Bears are out
Speaker 2: on Bourbon Street partying it up. We had a curfew.
Speaker 2: We were going to bed at eleven or twelve o'clock.
Speaker 2: So after the fact, I was like, next time I
Speaker 2: ever played the Super.
Speaker 3: Bowl, lay it up, hammered so that team, like Matt's
Speaker 3: right that that Bears team was special. What was you mentioned?
Speaker 3: The forty six defense? You know what made that such
Speaker 3: a challenge to go against.
Speaker 2: I remember coming off the field after one or two
Speaker 2: series and Bobby Greer, my running back coach at the
Speaker 2: time he said, hey, what are you seeing? I said,
Speaker 2: I think they got one more guy than they got
Speaker 2: fifteen guys out over there, right, But they were close.
Speaker 2: They were hunkered down, and if you wanted to throw
Speaker 2: the football, which it wanted you to do, you couldn't
Speaker 2: block them. They were gonna have somebody get to your quarterback.
Speaker 2: You didn't have the normal two point nine seconds. You
Speaker 2: were gonna get sacked. You had to get rid of
Speaker 2: it and so so then therefore that's why you had
Speaker 2: to have the two tight run it pound them man
Speaker 2: on man, let's go. But then they have an extra
Speaker 2: man in the box. Well that was going to be
Speaker 2: up to the running backs. Then we had to take
Speaker 2: care of that extra guy. Uh. Just never got to
Speaker 2: that point. But they were They were unique.
Speaker 3: So not that we need to go into all the
Speaker 3: play by play of obviously a disappointing finish, but that
Speaker 3: first series you mentioned Lynn's injury. On the first down,
Speaker 3: you get the turnover. I think Peyton fumbled yep, right off,
Speaker 3: right out right out of the shoot. So, like you know,
Speaker 3: seventeen year old Paul Perillo is like, it's gonna happen.
Speaker 3: It's happened that the turnovers gonna happen again. I completely
Speaker 3: convinced myself. And you go pass past pass, you know,
Speaker 3: kind of against your identity as a as a running team.
Speaker 3: You look back at that and say, maybe we're just
Speaker 3: taking a check because that's what they want you to
Speaker 3: do if you're going to beat them. That's what Miami
Speaker 3: did a few weeks before. That's how they beat him
Speaker 3: by throwing it all over the place.
Speaker 2: Miami was Miami, Miami was Miami, quick pass getting rid
Speaker 2: of it. That was that was their unique thing. New England.
Speaker 2: We were New England. We ran the football and I
Speaker 2: know I was wanting to run the football, man, I
Speaker 2: didn't want to. We weren't gonna get soft. It was
Speaker 2: a fist fight, brawl and we were ready for it.
Speaker 2: You mentioned some of the best teams that you were on.
Speaker 2: Is it sad five AFT team in that conversation for you, Craig, Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 2: And to accomplish what we did not expected to do that,
Speaker 2: and to go on the road three playoff games in
Speaker 2: a row, which, as you mentioned, was the first time
Speaker 2: that had ever happened. I think it's maybe happened once.
Speaker 1: Since The Ravens might have done it right that I think,
Speaker 1: so it's a hard task.
Speaker 2: I mean, home field advantage means something in the NFL,
Speaker 2: and we took that away from them. And so it
Speaker 2: was a great football team that we had here. I
Speaker 2: thought we were better than next year in eighty six
Speaker 2: and that we were heading to the to the super
Speaker 2: Bowl again, and it just it reminded me of how
Speaker 2: hard it is to get to the Super Bowl. We
Speaker 2: go to Denver and we can't meet John Elway, we
Speaker 2: ran out of gas, the altitude, whatever it was, John Elway.
Speaker 2: But I thought we were better and going to have
Speaker 2: a great chance that next year. So we discussed about
Speaker 2: that one.
Speaker 1: We discussed that because we said they were better in
Speaker 1: eighty six and they were in eighty five.
Speaker 2: Why did you think you were better? Experience, You've been there,
Speaker 2: you've done it. Confidence, We're not hoping or guessing. We've
Speaker 2: been there, we've done this. We can and get in
Speaker 2: that Super Bowl game again. And so it's all it
Speaker 2: was between the ears that we were better, which made
Speaker 2: us better physically on the field.
Speaker 3: So you had some similarities there. You talk about being
Speaker 3: the road team and how difficult it is. We know
Speaker 3: about the Orange Bowl on eighteen or whatever, consecutive losses.
Speaker 3: Mile High was the same. You know, yes, what which
Speaker 3: first of all, which one did you think was more
Speaker 3: difficult to play?
Speaker 4: Was it mile High? Because of the altstitude.
Speaker 2: We even went out that eighty six season, we went
Speaker 2: and spent a week training in Colorado Springs, higher altitude
Speaker 2: and I and it was going to get us ready
Speaker 2: for the game. So opening series, I have like a
Speaker 2: ten yard run, I go around a corner, I'm tapping
Speaker 2: my helmet, I'm coming out. I'm like that. Well, that
Speaker 2: so much for that strategy. It just it's a real
Speaker 2: advantage for any pro team in Denver to have a
Speaker 2: visitor come in there who's not used to the altitude.
Speaker 1: When you look back at it, Craig, because then injuries
Speaker 1: like what happens with a lot of people in the
Speaker 1: NFL happened. You know, how do you look back at
Speaker 1: you know, obviously fondly, but how do you look back
Speaker 1: at your NFL career?
Speaker 2: You know, I feel like I had the ability to
Speaker 2: run for ten thousand plus yards in the NFL. But
Speaker 2: you got to stay healthy, you have to get lucky.
Speaker 2: And in my time, when my shoulder went out on
Speaker 2: me and it dislocated, out the backside, which was rare
Speaker 2: and unique. One of my strengths was I was strong,
Speaker 2: and I would get in the weight room in the
Speaker 2: off season and I was really strong, and then I
Speaker 2: found myself doing arm curls and you know, dumbbell presses
Speaker 2: and you know, pretty boy weights, and that wasn't my style.
Speaker 2: And so I'm sad that I wasn't able to play
Speaker 2: another four or five years with a great offensive line
Speaker 2: and a great system. But I'm also amazed that I
Speaker 2: got to play in the NFL. I was blessed have
Speaker 2: played here in a Pro Bowl, being named Lombardi NFL
Speaker 2: Offensive Player of the Year of Patriots MVP. I think
Speaker 2: I'm on the All Decades team in the eighties here
Speaker 2: as a kid. Are you kidding me? That I got
Speaker 2: a chance to do that in the National Football League
Speaker 2: for the New England Patriots. What a blessing?
Speaker 1: And can you can you put into words? And I
Speaker 1: don't know if you talk about it with guys like
Speaker 1: Tony Collins or people like that.
Speaker 2: Again, you guys lit the match.
Speaker 1: Okay, it wasn't linear, it didn't always it wasn't just
Speaker 1: that straight trajectory.
Speaker 2: But when you see what the.
Speaker 1: Organization has become and the success that they had, it
Speaker 1: had to start someplace. They're a little bit of pride
Speaker 1: that people like yourself and others go. You know what,
Speaker 1: Kudos to them, Kudos to Bob Craft who really took
Speaker 1: this thing and they and took it to the next level.
Speaker 1: But we helped start something, you know, to make this
Speaker 1: an asset that his family wanted to buy.
Speaker 2: So think about Bob Craft. I'm sure he was a
Speaker 2: Patriots fan of the nineteen eighty five team, no question.
Speaker 2: He's watching this organization do that and gets almost there
Speaker 2: to a world championship, a super Bowl, and then he
Speaker 2: has the money and the ability to come in and
Speaker 2: buy it. It had an impact on him. So it
Speaker 2: impacted the family of Patriot fans, organization players. When they
Speaker 2: come through here and they go through the Hall of Fame,
Speaker 2: they see what's on those walls in there, and it
Speaker 2: started in nineteen eighty five. We got there, we knocked
Speaker 2: on the door, and very very proud of that.
Speaker 3: Do you get much interaction with those players, those teammates
Speaker 3: you know from those mid eighties teams.
Speaker 2: No, not really, just because I live in Texas, you know,
Speaker 2: I do have a home and I've spent every summer
Speaker 2: up here on the Cape, and I just we love
Speaker 2: New England. Last year, like I said, being a part
Speaker 2: of the Tom Brady Hall of Fame celebration here reminds you,
Speaker 2: as a player, how fortunate you were to be a
Speaker 2: part of this organization. So thankful. I think back to
Speaker 2: the AFC Championship room we got. You know, I don't
Speaker 2: wear it all the time. I'm told that the cost
Speaker 2: of each player's ring was about what Billy Sullivan paid
Speaker 2: for the whole organization. So nowadays you look at these
Speaker 2: rings and they're just monstrous. Nineteen eighty seven, walking out
Speaker 2: on Route one with my teammates on strike for free
Speaker 2: agency Plan B. We got Dak Prescott when he signed
Speaker 2: that five hundred and fifty million dollar deal. I just
Speaker 2: had a chance to go to his home and to
Speaker 2: meet him, and he said, hey, thank you for what
Speaker 2: you guys did. That's what it's all about. I was like, man,
Speaker 2: I was already a Dak fan. But for these kids today,
Speaker 2: football is still blocking and tackling. Zone defense. Man defense
Speaker 2: a combination. You got to block and tackle, you can
Speaker 2: get fancy. We had to run with me, check with
Speaker 2: me at the line of scrimmage for pass or run
Speaker 2: as well, and they try to act like it's different.
Speaker 2: But it was a violent game back then. And today's
Speaker 2: players not that they couldn't have played in that era,
Speaker 2: but they'd had to learn how to play in an
Speaker 2: era where there were no unprotected play I mean, defenseless players.
Speaker 2: You could tackle the quarterback however you want to tackle him.
Speaker 2: You could hit a receiver however you wanted to hit him.
Speaker 2: It was a violent game and I'm just thankful that
Speaker 2: I got a chance to do it.
Speaker 1: Deuce is going to be pissed if I don't get
Speaker 1: this one in. As we've talked about gen and who
Speaker 1: had three touchdown passes in that eighty five season.
Speaker 2: That's right, how about that? And I'd have had four?
Speaker 2: Irving Friar dropped one, I'd have had two. What do
Speaker 2: you think?
Speaker 4: Irving would would probably say a lot time we had
Speaker 4: a cut on his hand.
Speaker 2: Nowy Smurf would say, right, CJ Man, I'm sorry, did
Speaker 2: you like? Did you like that that they implemented that? Absolutely?
Speaker 2: Half back pass was amazing because it forced if I'm
Speaker 2: back there at tailback and they would give me that
Speaker 2: and I ran it in college I threw a bunch
Speaker 2: of as well. It forced the safety just to pause
Speaker 2: or the corner coming up. Is he gonna throw it?
Speaker 2: Or is he going to run this thing? And it
Speaker 2: just gave me just a little bit of an edge.
Speaker 2: My last one that I threw was to a defensive
Speaker 2: back for the Denver Broncos. It was completed just to
Speaker 2: the wrong guy. That's great.
Speaker 4: Do you watch much of the game now, do you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're still But you know what's different. The twenty
Speaker 2: three years that I did the broadcast in announcing games,
Speaker 2: I knew every trainer, equipment, manager, player, I knew all. Nowadays,
Speaker 2: I'm just a fan. You know. I don't know anybody.
Speaker 2: I know. There's a kid here from SMU on the
Speaker 2: team trying to make it here, Brandon Crossley. I hope,
Speaker 2: I hope. BC's a great player, passionate. But I mean,
Speaker 2: I don't know these guys. I watch them, I follow them,
Speaker 2: and I see them and I see their struggles and
Speaker 2: how hard it is. Do you like being a fan?
Speaker 2: Is it fun to be a fan? It's easier being
Speaker 2: a fan? Yeah, you know, it really is. I missed
Speaker 2: the microphone. Every once in a while, whenever something comes
Speaker 2: up where there's an item or an issue a change.
Speaker 2: College football is going to change again. There's gonna be
Speaker 2: another shift, and it's going to be all Big ten
Speaker 2: and all the SEC schools, and they're going to invite
Speaker 2: another thirty ish from around to join them. And so
Speaker 2: there's a scramble to be part of that next thirty
Speaker 2: in the next four or five years. And that's taking
Speaker 2: place in the NFL. The guys who come in here,
Speaker 2: you know, if you could sit down and talk to
Speaker 2: them and say, hey, look, I remember as forty years
Speaker 2: ago when older guys would walk in and talk to us,
Speaker 2: I would say to them, one of these days, you're
Speaker 2: going to be that sixty four year old guy sitting there,
Speaker 2: and you're gonna be finished. And it's a fleeting moment
Speaker 2: that you're playing. Could be seven years, it could be
Speaker 2: fourteen years, ten years, two years, it's gonna be over with.
Speaker 2: So do whatever you can to be accountable to yourself
Speaker 2: and accountable to your teammates, and if you do that,
Speaker 2: you'll have success. Great message, great thanks for coming by.
Speaker 2: Great to see you, man. You guys have rushed the
Speaker 2: memories back to me, and I thank y'all so much
Speaker 2: for allowing me to be a part of this.
Speaker 5: Hey this is Evan. Thanks for tuning into the show.
Speaker 5: If you really want to help us, make sure to
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Speaker 5: we do here at the Patriots. Thanks a lot