1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Romance is a production of I Heart Radio. Yeah 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: so yeah cool, and we have to put a quarter 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:10,360 Speaker 1: in a jar every time we say so yeah yeah 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: jar so yeah so yeah. So now we made so 5 00:00:15,240 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: many five cents. Here's the episode. I'm Diana and I'm Eli. 6 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: This podcast is going to save our marriage because we're 7 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: going to get to a point where we're like done 8 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,760 Speaker 1: with you, but I still want to do this. Yeah, 9 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: but I feel like the podcast is going to be 10 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: what pushes us to I'm done with you. So it 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: will both be the destruction and salvation of this ridiculous relationship. 12 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,120 Speaker 1: It's like the Stay Puffed marshmallow Man Sorry and Ghostbusters, 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: both the destruction and the salvation of New York City. 14 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:56,680 Speaker 1: I needed some clarity in salvation that side of it, 15 00:00:56,720 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: because I saw the destruction that was very clear. Salvation 16 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:05,000 Speaker 1: was interpretive, I guess. I mean, you know, it was 17 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: the salvation in that they picked a threat that they 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:13,320 Speaker 1: could handle, they handled it. Wait, are you quoting destruction 19 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,039 Speaker 1: and salvation from the movie or did you come up 20 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: with that? I came up with I thought it was 21 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:21,000 Speaker 1: destruction salvation, and I thought of the Stapuff marshmallow Man 22 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 1: for some reason. That's very strange. I thought that. I'm 23 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: very strange. No, definitely, I love it. I just thought 24 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: that when you said, because you know the movie really well, 25 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: Zoul said, you know this shall be our destruction and salvation. 26 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: Anyway you get the idea, get it. I thought it 27 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:38,320 Speaker 1: was a reference, but it's not. It's just out of 28 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:41,480 Speaker 1: your brain. My brain right up, that's coming up with 29 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 1: stuff making connections. Well, in that case, it was interpretive. Great, cool, dope, great, 30 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: thanks for listening everyone. Don't forget to check us out 31 00:01:56,200 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: every week right here on TBS. Very funny. Oh god, yeah, 32 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: uh well, I'm very excited about today's story. We are 33 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: talking about a sixteenth century Sufi Muslim poet and weaver 34 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: who is regarded as a saint. His name is Shah Hussain, 35 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: and he fell in love with a much younger Hindu 36 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 1: boy named Madho Lal. They're better known now is just 37 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 1: one name, Mado Lal Hussein. Their shrine is both their 38 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: graves side by side, and Hussain's death anniversary or ers 39 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: is celebrated in a three day festival that involves singing, dancing, 40 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,400 Speaker 1: wine and smoke and hashish. And there's nothing really ridiculous 41 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: about their relationship, but it's really fascinating for a lot 42 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,120 Speaker 1: of reasons. And um, I mean Pakistan is distinctly unfriendly 43 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: to gay relationships, which we'll get into later. But it's 44 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: almost more unbelievable that these two were Muslim and Hindu 45 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: than that they were two men. So there's a lot 46 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: of layers to this though, let's get into it. Hey, 47 00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: their friends come listen. Well, Elia and Diana got some 48 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: stories to tell. There's no matchmaking, no romantic tips. It's 49 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: just about ridiculous relationships a lover. It might be any 50 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,519 Speaker 1: type of person at all, and abstract cons at a 51 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: concrete wall. But if there's a story with a second 52 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: plans ridiculous role, that's so. I don't know if we 53 00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 1: just want to start right off the bat and just 54 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 1: announced that you know, I am not and I don't 55 00:03:31,120 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 1: know about you, but unless you've not told me something, 56 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:39,160 Speaker 1: neither of us is Muslim or Hindu, or in any way, 57 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: shape or form from anywhere near the Middle East, nor 58 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 1: were any of our ancestors. So I did go to 59 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: Egypt once. That's the closest I've been, I could say, 60 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: quite a trip. So we've been to Egypt, Egypt. That's it, 61 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: and this doesn't give us any more authority, but we 62 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: are super interested in this story. We've course want to 63 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,040 Speaker 1: make sure that we diversify our stories here on this show. 64 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: A little bit so true, So we're really excited to 65 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: tell this story. That being said, we might flub our pronunciations, 66 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:12,640 Speaker 1: so we're we're coming out this as best we can 67 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: and trying to do as much research, diligent research from 68 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: the region as possible. So apologies to any Middle Eastern 69 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,279 Speaker 1: listeners who might be screaming at us in the way 70 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 1: we're pronouncing these names, I'm very sorry, but it's a 71 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 1: great story. I love it so shaw Hussain he was 72 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: born in fifteen thirty eight and the city of Lahore, 73 00:04:34,720 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 1: which is in what's now known as Pakistan. At the time, 74 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: I think it was the Punjabi region of South India, 75 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: but it wasn't Pakistan yet. His father was an Islamic 76 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: convert and enrolled him in this local school where he 77 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: started to memorize the Kuran. That's how they did it, 78 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: and it's just kind of by wrote. You memorize the 79 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: Koran until you knew it by heart. And there's a 80 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: story that when he was ten, his mentor asked him 81 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: to get some fresh water, and by the river he 82 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: was blessed by al Kadir with a green one, and 83 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,280 Speaker 1: after that he was able to recite the entire Koran, 84 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:07,680 Speaker 1: even though he had only memorized a portion of it. 85 00:05:08,120 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: So this is like, um, this is like somebody walks 86 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:12,960 Speaker 1: up to me and it's like, give me the ten 87 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:17,080 Speaker 1: Commandments and I'm like sure, bing bang boom, and I 88 00:05:17,120 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: list them all off I have. I don't think I've 89 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,479 Speaker 1: ever read them end to end. I think there's some 90 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 1: weird ones in there, but nobody ever remembers. But pen's 91 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: a pretty shabby number to pick for the rules that 92 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:30,640 Speaker 1: govern all of humanity, right, I feel like it could 93 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:33,800 Speaker 1: be more, but we're getting into the wrong religion. At 94 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: any rate, you learn a little bit of it and 95 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, you know the whole thing 96 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: from from a blessing. Yeah, it's like if you're plugged 97 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 1: into the matrix. Oh man, I was just gonna make 98 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:48,680 Speaker 1: that reference. Uh totally. I need hey quick, I need 99 00:05:48,760 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: to know how to ride this motorcycle. And al Kadir 100 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: shows up, snaps his fingers, does a dance, and boom. 101 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: You can recite the Koran and you're like, this is 102 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: what I asked for. But this I used to this 103 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: be somewhere as well. I was like, man, I wish 104 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,560 Speaker 1: I had had an al kadir in school. Just what 105 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: blessed me? And I knew everything on the test be 106 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 1: pretty dope. But I guess there's probably something pretty special 107 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:15,240 Speaker 1: about Shah Hussein. To be blessed by the green one, 108 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,520 Speaker 1: not necessarily anyone that goes to the river gets a blessing. 109 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,720 Speaker 1: So when he's thirty six, Hussein read this passage in 110 00:06:22,760 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: the Quran. Hearken, ye folks, this world is a play 111 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:30,919 Speaker 1: and a show, a display of pageantry, pride and boasting 112 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: between yourselves and competing with one another for greater wealth 113 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: than number of children. True, and that's biting, but true. 114 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: Navid Alam, a literature professor who translated Hussain's poems and 115 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,360 Speaker 1: his book Versus of a Lowly Fakir, says the words 116 00:06:49,400 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 1: resonated so deeply with Hussein that he broke into a 117 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,839 Speaker 1: spontaneous dance of self liberation. From this point onwards, he 118 00:06:56,839 --> 00:06:59,120 Speaker 1: would not play the game for the sake of any 119 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: success in the world, material or spiritual, but would rather 120 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: become the amused player who treats the world as what 121 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: it is, an ephemeral playground. How can you focus this 122 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:11,680 Speaker 1: world as a play in a show? Very all the 123 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: world's a stage. Yeah, I thought the same thing. I 124 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: don't know if Shakespeare ever read the Koran, but anyway, um, 125 00:07:17,960 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: not quite the same point he was making. I just 126 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: love that, like you know, he's just reading through the 127 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,360 Speaker 1: Korana is interesting, This is interesting. Here's a good passage. 128 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: I like that. Whoa, holy sh it, Oh I gotta dance? 129 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I am liberated, Like what a wonderful feeling. Well, 130 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: and how how better to express liberation then dance around? Right? 131 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 1: I just love I just love that image of him 132 00:07:43,160 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: just like throwing it down. I'm trade and throw it down, 133 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: just like looking up at this guy and just being 134 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 1: like I gotta dance, being so excited. I mean, like 135 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 1: you know, if you like, if I won the lottery, 136 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: I would dance, you know, spontaneously, that kind of level 137 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: of excitement, just like spiritual lot ory. He won, he 138 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: found he found that piece that really made it work 139 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: for him. So he won the spiritual lottery? Is that 140 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: a better payoff? Guess it depends on your point of view. 141 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:20,000 Speaker 1: Are you an earthly man or man? So because of 142 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: his spiritual epiphany, he became a Mala Mattia adherent. Malamatia 143 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: followers basically believe in humiliating their egos so they can 144 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:32,199 Speaker 1: get closer to true spiritual transcendence. You're not supposed to 145 00:08:32,240 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: try for greatness or even social acceptance. Like even praying 146 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: in front of people was like a way to make 147 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:41,720 Speaker 1: them I think you looked real holy or something, so 148 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,080 Speaker 1: even that was like frowned on. There's a great story 149 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: about Mala Matti who entered a village and people were 150 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:50,079 Speaker 1: treating him like a saint, following him around, I mean, 151 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: like tell us stuff so that we can learn from you. 152 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: And he started urinating into the streets so people would 153 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: turn away from him, which was probably pretty effective. I 154 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: know that would work very well on me, this sort 155 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:05,839 Speaker 1: of idea like don't look at me. I'm not this, 156 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: I'm not God, right, don't worship me, don't come to 157 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: me and think that I have all the answers. If 158 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: you put too much focus on me, then you're not 159 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: putting your focus on God. I guess it's kind of 160 00:09:19,040 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: the mentality here, right, Yeah, although I did see a 161 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 1: blog or something that was written that was kind of 162 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,720 Speaker 1: like saying that by humiliating your ego and like trying 163 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: so hard to have people turned away from you, was 164 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:37,240 Speaker 1: kind of being really self like, kind of really turned 165 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: in on yourself and thinking still about yourself and your 166 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: own behavior and how do you appear in the world. 167 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: So it technically isn't getting you any clothes. But what 168 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 1: you know, I mean, people are going to argue points 169 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 1: forever and ever about religion, So we're not going to 170 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,719 Speaker 1: we're not going to make a judgment on you. Can 171 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: I feel like you can get pedantic about it from 172 00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: any angle. Yeah. So, but what's what's cool about that 173 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:02,480 Speaker 1: is social censure for his love of for a young 174 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: boy would not only not be a problem for Hussein, 175 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: but it might be part of the attraction to having 176 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,960 Speaker 1: a gay relationship is that people wouldn't like it, you know, 177 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: and they'd be like, oh, we can't follow you anymore. 178 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: And he'd be like, great, now I'm a better mala 179 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: matti because people are paying less attention to me. That's 180 00:10:19,480 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: part of the discourse about him, like that comes up. 181 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:26,680 Speaker 1: I don't think anybody's questioning if they were really in 182 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 1: love or anything like that. But it was certainly like 183 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: pointed out that like that could be kind of part 184 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: of it was like, Oh, I could do this and 185 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 1: people would definitely have an opinion about it, and it 186 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: might help me be more holy. I guess you know 187 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: what I need is my What did you hear that? Oh, 188 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: it's my headphones? Then what she said? Please charge me 189 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: your headphones? She said that in my ears, please charge me. 190 00:10:58,240 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: So here's what I need. I'm going to have to 191 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 1: go get it. I need some water and I need 192 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 1: a different set of headphones. Okay, as I need to apparently, 193 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:10,320 Speaker 1: please charge me for these. Uh, we'll be right because 194 00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: it's time for a commercial break. Anyway, we're at eleven minutes, 195 00:11:13,720 --> 00:11:17,079 Speaker 1: so we'll be right back after this. And we are back. 196 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: We got headphones, we got water, and we got shaw 197 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: hussein Um he developed quite a reputation. Alam says a 198 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 1: rebel fakir dressed all in red, bearing a wine flask 199 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: in one hand and an earthen bowl and another That's 200 00:11:32,559 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 1: that was my senior picture, actually, yeah, in high school, 201 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:38,839 Speaker 1: wine flask in one hand on an earthen bowl in 202 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: the other. I hope the wine flask was full of 203 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:44,920 Speaker 1: water or something. Yeah. No, I graduated high school at 204 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 1: so wow. I thought you were so much smarter than that. 205 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,800 Speaker 1: Learning too much about you. A big dummy, all right. So, 206 00:11:54,920 --> 00:11:59,160 Speaker 1: unlike Jesus who turned water into wine, Hussain turned wine 207 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: into a non alcoholic beverage. Yeah, well, yeah, I guess. 208 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: I mean it's cool to be able to do it. 209 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: I would certainly be impressed, but I might be like 210 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: it was like a fourteen dollar bottle of wine. Yeah, 211 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: there's another legend that the Emperor Akbar was not impressed 212 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 1: by his wine to water miracle. Yeah, any drunk can 213 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: turn wine into water. I see them relieving themselves in 214 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 1: the street every day. Take him away. And for ac Bar, 215 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: who was played by Ripped Torn in this movie, terrible casting. Look, 216 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:36,719 Speaker 1: I got a narrow range of voices. So they sent 217 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 1: him to prison for that. But then his likeness appeared 218 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: to a harem attended by royal ladies, and Akbar suddenly 219 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: believed his credentials and as a saint, and they set 220 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: him free. Yeah, I guess because he was in his 221 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 1: cell and the ladies are seeing him in a totally 222 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:56,160 Speaker 1: different place. So He's like, well, I guess you're not 223 00:12:56,240 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: just turning wine into your ine. Your like appearing, which 224 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 1: either miraculous or phenomenal trick. Feel like he's in prison, 225 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: so he had to sneak out, go appear to this 226 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: harem of young ladies, and then sneak back into prison, 227 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: because breaking back into prisons the hard part. True mirror 228 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,960 Speaker 1: trick in the movies all the time, but a mirror trick. 229 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: He had like mirrors lined up throughout the palace. Well, 230 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: I think he appeared. He's a saint, and he appeared. 231 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: But but in the year fifteen ninety, he was fifty 232 00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: four years old, and this is the first time he 233 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: saw sixteen year old chic Motto Law, who was only 234 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: described as a Hindu boy of matchless beauty. And it 235 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: was love at first sight, according to something. Some resources 236 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:47,760 Speaker 1: are very clear that it was romantic love, but others 237 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: say they were lifelong friends or had a spiritual love, 238 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: but not a sexual one. I don't know. I think 239 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 1: it was sexual personally because some of the poems that 240 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: he wrote mentioned Motto by a name um and there's 241 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:06,080 Speaker 1: one very romantic one that mentions a male lover. We're 242 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: gonna go on down to our ridiculous romance poetry corner 243 00:14:09,760 --> 00:14:13,000 Speaker 1: where we're going to hear from Shaw Hussin, don't forget 244 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 1: to tip your bartender. My lover grabbed my arm. Why 245 00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: would I ask him to let go? Dark night, drizzling, painful, 246 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: the approaching hour of departure. You'll know what loves all 247 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: about once it seeps into your bones. Why dig a 248 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: well in brackish soil? Why so a seed and sand? 249 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: You who are making giant leaps? One day you'll be 250 00:14:38,680 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 1: leaped over my man, says Hussain. The humble funk here 251 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: look into the lover's eyes and let the gaze remain interlocked. 252 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 1: That is beautiful, by the way, But they didn't sound 253 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: anything like that, of course, because there was no beating 254 00:14:57,520 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: a coffee shop at the time. They weren't an that 255 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: was a navid alum translation. Um. They were also set 256 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: to music and uh usually sung. So I totally recommend 257 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,400 Speaker 1: going on YouTube and looking up a coffee and hearing 258 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 1: it because it's very special. It's different, um, and apparently 259 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: it could change the meaning of the poem, like how 260 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: what what they chose to emphasize and stuff like that. 261 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 1: So um. Anyway, they're they're really cool. Yeah, and that 262 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 1: that type of poem is called a coffee I think 263 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:36,000 Speaker 1: k A f I a coffee poem. Currently, it is 264 00:15:36,040 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: illegal to be gay in Pakistan, at least as of 265 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: the recording of this episode. It's harder to say about 266 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: fifty eight pun job. The Kamma Sutra has explicit instructions 267 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: for homosexual acts, so we know they were thinking about it. True, 268 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: somebody was doing it. And we also found that Emperor Barber, 269 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 1: emperor of the mook Hall dynasty, had references to his 270 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,520 Speaker 1: rootic love for a teenage boy in his memoirs that 271 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: was Fie. And like many South Asian nations, in Pakistan, 272 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: there's a commonly accepted notion of a third gender that 273 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: is neither man nor woman. So being transgender is fairly 274 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 1: well tolerated there and even uh they added some broad 275 00:16:18,920 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: civil rights protections for transgender people in their laws. So 276 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: so that's good. But but is currently, if I understand correctly, 277 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:30,200 Speaker 1: is currently illegal to be gay? Yeah, that's apparently the 278 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: Brits fault. When they came in to colonize, they brought 279 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: their own laws with them, and part of that was 280 00:16:37,800 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 1: making homosexuality illegal. Now their law is a mixture of 281 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: Anglo Saxon and Islamic law, and apparently gay Pakistanis can 282 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: be subject to secular punishment like prison, religious punishment like 283 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: whipping or stoning or both. So you're telling me that 284 00:16:57,800 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: the English came into a region they ain't had nothing 285 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:05,560 Speaker 1: to do with, started changing things and made it worse. 286 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: I know, it's hard to believe. This is outrageous, hard 287 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,919 Speaker 1: to believe. Point Point to me one other time in 288 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 1: history where that happened, and I will my jab will 289 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: be on the floor. Yeah, it's not even really talked 290 00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: about in their politics at all. A lot of people 291 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 1: object to gay marriage or gay relationships period on religious grounds, 292 00:17:24,640 --> 00:17:29,199 Speaker 1: which is a very familiar argument um. Sociologists stephen O. 293 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 1: Murray and bad Ridden Khan wrote in their book Sex, 294 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 1: Longing and Not Belonging that the penal laws are rarely 295 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,919 Speaker 1: enforced but often used by police and private citizens as 296 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,520 Speaker 1: a form of blackmail. If Motto and Hussain were alive 297 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:46,919 Speaker 1: and together today, it's likely they'd be socially censured for 298 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: their love. But as we talked about usmalamatis, so that 299 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: wouldn't really have bothered them and his intentional poverty made 300 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 1: him hard to blackmail, so I'm not sure how much, 301 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:02,120 Speaker 1: if any, you know, day to day persecution they faced 302 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: at the time. It's kind of hard to find stuff 303 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 1: about that. Cha. Hussein loved Motto so much that he 304 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 1: changed his name officially to Matto Lal Hussain. That was 305 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:19,480 Speaker 1: their combined names, so they'd be unified forever. So that 306 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,359 Speaker 1: was a reference to both of them. They were a 307 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: single unit with one name, a combination of those two names. Yeah, 308 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: and it had the unintended side effect of making it 309 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: hard for a podcast host to find anything about Motto's 310 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: life since all the research was about Hussein. But I 311 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: guess that didn't occur to him in for some reason. Yeah, 312 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: they weren't worried about their um the s e O. Yeah, 313 00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:45,600 Speaker 1: they weren't like, hell, how are people going to search 314 00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: for this? Well, we combine our names. Nobody able to 315 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:51,439 Speaker 1: find our Facebook profiles? Oh, just well. I suppose they 316 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: would have had a joint profile like some couples. Too cute. 317 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not into it now. No, there was 318 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 1: a cool thing written about how they put their names 319 00:19:01,920 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: together because he was a weaver, so they were talking 320 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: about how you know, he's like combining, like weaving their 321 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 1: lives together and their names together, and everything about them together. 322 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: So they might actually like very much that you can't 323 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: find much about them separately, because that was the idea. 324 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,920 Speaker 1: So this was kind of the the benefit of their day, 325 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: the Brangelina Brangelina. These guys were not the bran Angelina 326 00:19:28,640 --> 00:19:33,440 Speaker 1: of their day. So different, but I guess, I mean 327 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,120 Speaker 1: they're a little bit of a celebrity. They got They 328 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,080 Speaker 1: wanted to be thought of as a unit in motto, 329 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: embraced Islam and converted. Hussein was his spiritual mentor. They 330 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: had something like ten thousand followers. That didn't seem to 331 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: mean much because of the whole Malamatti thing. When someone 332 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: wanted to be initiated by Hussein, he would just say, 333 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: shave your head and drink an earthen bowl of wine 334 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:05,640 Speaker 1: with me, which has invited Dianasey in comparisons. I want 335 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:07,439 Speaker 1: to bring up an elephant that I feel like it's 336 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: in the room, okay, um Cha, Hussein's fifty four years 337 00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,680 Speaker 1: old when they met, uh Mato Lal was sixteen, is 338 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: that right, okay? And then the kid converted to his religion. 339 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: So there is an angle through a modern lens, certainly 340 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: a modern Western lens that we have right here between us, 341 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 1: that this might be considered a sort of grooming um, 342 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 1: that there's like something kind of uncomfortable about this as well. 343 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: I mean, when I know we're talking about it as 344 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: a beautiful story, but I think there is a kind 345 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: of a an element that's like a little a little yeah, 346 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: I'm not sure, right, And I think when they met 347 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 1: to h Hussain was already kind of being seen as 348 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,600 Speaker 1: a saint and this spiritual man. And I mean since 349 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: he was ten, you know, people are like he's been 350 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 1: blessed and he's this came into this relationship with a 351 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 1: lot of power. Yeah, which is why I was trying 352 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: to find stuff about Motto before he ever got with 353 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: shaw Hussein, because it was kind of like, maybe, you know, 354 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: how did he meet him? Was he trying to convert? 355 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: Because they were there were people you know, interested in 356 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:16,560 Speaker 1: converting at that time, like sha Hussein's own father and everything. 357 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: So I don't I don't know, I don't know, and 358 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: I certainly we don't know what sixteen year old boy 359 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: in the region in the time, you know, may have 360 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: had a full time job and been you know, a 361 00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: very independent adult for thinking person. But but I did 362 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:39,680 Speaker 1: want to address that because it is kind of again 363 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: or approaching those very like kind of beautiful romance. But 364 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: you could look at it and be like, it's kind 365 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: of not okay. Yeah, I think in the twenty one 366 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: century it would be a lot harder to be like, oh, 367 00:21:49,320 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: that's nice to see, but yeah, you want to think 368 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: in that time period, all over the world, people were 369 00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: kind of coming of age much much younger than they 370 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: are now. So it's kind of just a totally different thing, 371 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 1: not only culturally in in that culture, but in general 372 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: in the world. I think age stuff was very different. 373 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's it's a weird one and from 374 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,680 Speaker 1: century lens it's a weird one, right, And of course 375 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:24,399 Speaker 1: we're just approaching this like telling the story. We certainly 376 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: don't have the education or the experience to speak on 377 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,359 Speaker 1: things like that. But but worth bringing up. I'm sure 378 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: I'm sure people would be listening to this thinking the 379 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: fuck this is not okay. But yeah, at least what 380 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:42,480 Speaker 1: I've read it seemed to be very pure. But of course, 381 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: again we're looking at it from a just a totally 382 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: different wrote that you know, right, oh right, Well, you 383 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 1: know a good point. But actually we will get more 384 00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: into Motto's own life when we come back from our 385 00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: commercial break, So we'll get into that right after this. Yeah, 386 00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: we are back from our break and we're talking about 387 00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:09,119 Speaker 1: cha Hussain and Motto. Law. Now, Hussain died at the 388 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:13,080 Speaker 1: age of sixty three in fift so they really only 389 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,679 Speaker 1: got nine years together, and Motto became the leader of 390 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 1: Hussain's one of ten thousand some followers until he died 391 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: at seventy three in sixteen forty seven and was buried 392 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: next to him. And it says that he secluded himself 393 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:32,120 Speaker 1: in Hussain's temple for the rest of his life, which 394 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: means he spent forty eight years alone. That's devotion. Would 395 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: you if I dropped dead just now, would you seclude 396 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,919 Speaker 1: yourself for the next forty eight years? I would secluse 397 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: myself for forty eight minutes and then and then I 398 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: would want to be near friends, uh for forty eight 399 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,200 Speaker 1: hours and then um, and then I would have to 400 00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: look at the list and see who's next. There's a list. 401 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: Tilda Swinton, oh right, Natalie Portman, Chris Hemsworth, m hmm, 402 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: Letitia right, and then and then um, and then we 403 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: just and then we just and then we just cut 404 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: through the m c U like there's a ranking there 405 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: until you find one that says you, who says, yeah, 406 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: well good luck to you. Yeah. What about me? If 407 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 1: I pieced out? Oh? Would I sat myself for forty 408 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,920 Speaker 1: eight years? I doubt it. You can't. You could barely 409 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 1: seclude yourself this year from the raging pandemic. I don't 410 00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: know how many dates I'd go on. I don't know 411 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: that I would be trying real hard for another romantic relationship. 412 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 1: Same list, Natalie Portman, I mean, on my ban is 413 00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:52,920 Speaker 1: of course on my list, She's tied with Tildas Winton. 414 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,480 Speaker 1: Chris Hemsworth is certainly Chris Mine, Chris Evans, Oh you 415 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: got the Chris is right. Chris Pratt isn't on there. 416 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,120 Speaker 1: Uh um, that's okay. Yeah, he's running his mouth too much, 417 00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: true so. But but at any rate, that kind of 418 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: goes back to what we were talking about. I mean, 419 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: this guy spent the next forty years of his adult 420 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,359 Speaker 1: life continuing this man's worship, kind of his legacy. It 421 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,280 Speaker 1: does seem like, you know, this was something that was 422 00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,720 Speaker 1: really passionate to him. It wasn't. I mean, you could 423 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:24,159 Speaker 1: argue about whether or not that grooming just lasts throughout 424 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 1: life for that kind of thing, but I think, yeah, 425 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,720 Speaker 1: he was pretty much like I'm in, you know, And 426 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 1: he stayed in even after Shaw was gone. And the 427 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 1: coffees that Shaw Hustain wrote are still sung today and 428 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:41,320 Speaker 1: have appeared in some Bollywood films, which is pretty cool. 429 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 1: And their love story continues to resonate because the two 430 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:50,040 Speaker 1: defied social norms and exemplified the concept of universal love. 431 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: And again we mentioned this earlier, but the fact that 432 00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: they were a Muslim and a Hindu was almost more 433 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: shocking than the fact that they were two men. This 434 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,480 Speaker 1: situation is very complex, could be a multi episode podcast 435 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: on its own, but here's a very short and expert 436 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 1: summary of the situation between India and Pakistanike go ahead, 437 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 1: welcome to the World Affairs class banks it okay, So, 438 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,880 Speaker 1: India and Pakistan were once one country. They had some 439 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,720 Speaker 1: conflict within because they were the two major religions jockeying 440 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: each other. And besides that they have six and Buddhists 441 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 1: and Jains and so on. So it's a pretty tough 442 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: conflict to settle. You can't just be like, we're a 443 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: Hindu nation. That's it. There's too many factions or whatever 444 00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: to be doing that. And then in the British split 445 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:46,919 Speaker 1: the country into majority Hindu India and Muslim Pakistan, and 446 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: the resulting seventy years of conflict is often blamed on 447 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: the Brits, but I saw a Diplomat article that argued 448 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: that it was inevitable for the region to be in 449 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: conflict due to the thousands a year history of relations 450 00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: between Hindus and Muslims in South Asia and that they 451 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: kind of were like the idea of a two nations 452 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: state was already being kicked around before the Brits ever 453 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,400 Speaker 1: got there, and that it's almost condescending to say that 454 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: as soon as they stepped in it kind of ruined everything. Um, 455 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,600 Speaker 1: that's even that is kind of giving credit to the 456 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,879 Speaker 1: Brits that they don't deserve, right. I'm sure they didn't 457 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: help anything very rarely, but they got some spices out 458 00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,760 Speaker 1: of it. I guess. Yeah, they help themselves to better 459 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,360 Speaker 1: food and then didn't use it anyway. We won't get 460 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: into that, but anyway did not seem to help much. 461 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: That they split it into a two nations state because 462 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,200 Speaker 1: there's this highly populous region called Kashmir that was supposed 463 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: to go to Pakistan in the original British deal. But 464 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:54,040 Speaker 1: at the time they had a Hindu maharajah who said India, 465 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:56,960 Speaker 1: if you protect me, you can have Kashmir, and you 466 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: need to protect me from these Pakistan Muslim in vay Errs. 467 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: So three wars were fought over Kashmir until in V two, 468 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: a U N monitored ceasefire created the line of control 469 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: partly controlled by India, partly by Pakistan. And then there's 470 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: a less populated part of this high altitude area that's 471 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: controlled by China UM and since then it didn't work. 472 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: It didn't really work. Since then they have faced off 473 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: over the LC because India says the whole places there's 474 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: and that the Pakistani claims are not legitimate because they're 475 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: terrorists and they're using terrorist violence to kind of stake 476 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: their claim on Pakistan argues that the majority of people 477 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: who live in Indie controlled Kashmir on Muslim and if 478 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: they were given a choice, they would be part of Pakistan, 479 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: and their dispute is a big deal to the whole 480 00:28:49,240 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: world because they both tested nukes in so it's real 481 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: and easy over there, to say the least. And the 482 00:28:56,800 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: diplomat article I mentioned before quotes the founder of Pakistan, 483 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,360 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali Jinnah as saying Hindus and Muslims neither intermarry 484 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: nor eat together, really stressing the differences between their worldviews, religion, 485 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: society and everything would make it impossible for them to 486 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: coexist in a single state. But long before Jinna was 487 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 1: founding Pakistan based on that idea, and long before the 488 00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: nukes were going off and anybody even thought about it, 489 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 1: a Hindu and a Muslim did eat together and basically 490 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: married each other and formed one person under one name. 491 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: So still today they extend as an example of love 492 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,920 Speaker 1: and harmony being found between Muslims and Hindus. In fact, 493 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: the three day Festival of Lights that we mentioned at 494 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: the top of the episode used to be two separate celebrations. 495 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: According to an article on Dawn, the Errs Death Anniversary 496 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 1: and Meila Festival were two separate events, one carried out 497 00:29:57,280 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 1: at the shrine and the other was at the jacent 498 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: Shalimar Gardens until they were combined into one Mela Chi 499 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: Ragan Festival of Lamps by the eighteenth century ruler round 500 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,719 Speaker 1: Jit Singh. The spring Mela, revered by the Hindus and 501 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 1: ER's celebrated by the Muslims, signified union and harmony among 502 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 1: the two faiths when combined into one celebration remembering the 503 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: bond of Shah Hussein and motto law, I think that's beautiful. 504 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: It's quite lovely when to become one. Just like the 505 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:31,480 Speaker 1: Spice Girls sang wow, you know, speaking of the Brits 506 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: coming in and ruining everything. Birth the Spice Girls into 507 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: the world. Okay, where they get that spice? Great questions India. 508 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,720 Speaker 1: They didn't have no ginger spice before they went into Indiah. 509 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, I guess they had ginger. What 510 00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: they they didn't have, but I think they had what 511 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 1: salt pepper and maybe they had black pepper and they 512 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 1: barely used it. They salted to like preserve it because 513 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 1: there was a refrigeration. I don't know. We went pretty 514 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,560 Speaker 1: hard after the Brits this episode. But they can handle. 515 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: They're fine. They're doing okay. I mean, they're not doing 516 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 1: this as good as they were, but that's probably for 517 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:14,760 Speaker 1: the best. But anyway, I just think this is such 518 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: a cool story. It's such a romance that just sings 519 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 1: through the ages. You know, it's still so important to 520 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,560 Speaker 1: that region for that reason, just about peace and harmony 521 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: and love and finding something to love about one another, 522 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,240 Speaker 1: even if you don't agree on everything. Um, I'm sure 523 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: that there's people who are like, well, he did he 524 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: did convert. So it's not like a Hindu and a 525 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,239 Speaker 1: Muslim were together the whole time. It was kind of 526 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: two Muslims were together. But still I think obviously that 527 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: still matters a lot. Yeah, it's just a beautiful story. 528 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,560 Speaker 1: Unlike all great stories, there are definitely some things you 529 00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: kind of turn a blind eye to, like the age gap, 530 00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: which again is super uncomfortable, and um, I guess that's 531 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: really the main one. But well, I guess urinating in 532 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 1: the streets that's not been a part of our beautiful 533 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: stories that we've told to this point. But maybe it'll 534 00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: come up more next week and maybe we'll hear a 535 00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: beautiful story about Tildas Winton and her life partner doing 536 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: an art piece the urinate in the streets. At any rate, 537 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: it's a cool story, and you know what, it's one 538 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,640 Speaker 1: of the stories you've told so far that doesn't end 539 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 1: horribly that's true. Actually just just a romance, just a romance. 540 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: Romance ridiculous in its own right, but it's like ridiculous 541 00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:44,120 Speaker 1: in a positive way, like breaking the norms, challenging social structures, 542 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: religions coming together. That's that's kind of ridiculous, right well, 543 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: And depending on your opinion about war, that's pretty ridiculous 544 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: that people are fighting over an imaginary border that was 545 00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: never there in the first place, and now it is 546 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: they're arbitrarily drawn and they're having a whole bunch of 547 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,240 Speaker 1: death and murder over it. But you know, that's a 548 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: that's another story. No, real quick, before we go, I 549 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: want to solve the India Pakistan crisis. Okay, I'd love 550 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: to hear Ambassador Elis. Listen, let me tell you something. 551 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 1: You over here and you go over there, and everybody 552 00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,760 Speaker 1: put your hands in your pockets and we're going to 553 00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: have a good time. Has anybody ever said that? Has 554 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: anybody ever gone over there and said that? I guess 555 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: that's what the white people did and I didn't work out, didn't. 556 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: Maybe we should keep our big fat noses at this one. 557 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,240 Speaker 1: We just don't don't put off any nukes like that's 558 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: when it becomes a problem for everybody. So other than that, 559 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: it's kind of like no one's saying it's not complicate. 560 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: Figure out. It's not certainly not for us to decide, 561 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:05,480 Speaker 1: but let's keep the atoms unsplit. So long story short, 562 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:10,400 Speaker 1: figure it out, guys, all across the globe, you know what, 563 00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: nations across the world. Let's let's let's stop. Okay, let's 564 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: just stop the fighting. Let's just figure it out. You know. 565 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:25,920 Speaker 1: Is it's so hard? Yeah, yes it is. Damn it. 566 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: I really thought we were going to solve it. Not today, Sorry, guys, 567 00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: before we cause an international incident. So you can reach 568 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: out to us, please be kind at Romance at i 569 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: heeart Media dot com, Yapper, slide into the d m s. 570 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,000 Speaker 1: We're on Twitter and Instagram at dyanamite boom and I'm 571 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:46,720 Speaker 1: at oh great, it's Eli, and don't forget to follow 572 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,919 Speaker 1: and like and share and give us some five star 573 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: reviews and all that good stuff. Special thanks this week 574 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:54,839 Speaker 1: everyone who helped us get this show off the ground. 575 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,919 Speaker 1: Ben Bolan and Noel Brown and the whole ridiculous team 576 00:34:57,920 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: at i Heeart Radio, also John Rigney, Brian and Mario Gomez, 577 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: Bowert and Cherry Delvira Zario and Jason Mallory. Thanks everybody, 578 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 1: Thank you, Bye, so long friends, it's time to go. 579 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to our show. Tell your friends neighbor's 580 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 1: uncle sandance to listen to a show. Ridiculous role dance