WEBVTT - Buddhist on Death Row 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.840 Dear Governor is a production of I Heart Media and 0:00:02.920 --> 0:00:06.760 three Months Media. If you are moved by Jarvis Masters 0:00:06.760 --> 0:00:09.320 and his thirty years struggle on San Quentin's Death throw, 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.760 and you'd like to support his cause, please consider signing 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.840 a petition on his behalf. Visit Free Jarvis dot org 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:20.160 slash podcast to sign your name to an open letter 0:00:20.200 --> 0:00:26.120 to California Governor Gavin Newsom, Dear Governor Newsom, Dear Mr 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:31.640 Governor Newsom. This is an open letter to Governor Gavin Newsom, 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:44.839 Dear Governor Newsom public. Throughout his life, Jarvis Masters has 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:49.199 endured more injustice and tragedy than any ordinary person. But 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.159 then again, Jarvis is anything but ordinary. He has an 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.040 almost Forrest Gumpian nature about him, a man who has 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.640 been holed up in a nine by four cell since 0:00:59.640 --> 0:01:03.680 the first steer President Reagan's first term, who has nevertheless 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:06.840 managed to live a remarkable life, attracting a circle of 0:01:06.880 --> 0:01:12.200 supporters that include world renowned spiritual and religious teachers, celebrities, 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:16.360 world class thinkers, philosophers, and writers, from Desmond two two 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:21.679 to Oprah Winfrey to Brian Stevenson. My name is David Chef. 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:25.280 I am a journalist. I've been a journalist for about 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.120 thirty forty years. Oh my god, and you know I 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:32.880 had the great fortune meeting Jarvis and then moving forward 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:35.800 with him to write a book about his life and 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.840 the most extraordinary experience. One world class writer whom Jarvis 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.600 has drawn into his life is author David Chef. David's 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.600 best selling memoir A Beautiful Boy was made into a 0:01:47.680 --> 0:01:51.200 major motion picture starring Steve Correll and Timothy shallow May, 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:54.400 and his latest work is a biography about Jarvis called 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.720 The Buddhist on Death Row How One Man Found Light 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.400 in the Darkest Place A in in true gumpy in form, 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.960 Jarvis's life story managed to attract the interest of none 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:08.720 other than the Holiness himself, the Dalai Lama. About the 0:02:08.760 --> 0:02:12.280 Buddhist on Death Row, he writes, quote, this book shows 0:02:12.360 --> 0:02:15.559 vividly how even in the face of the greatest adversity, 0:02:15.800 --> 0:02:20.480 compassion and warmhearted concern for others brings peace and inner strength. 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:23.960 David has interviewed some of the most fascinating people in 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:28.960 modern history, including John Lennon, Steve Jobs, Ansel Adams, Betty 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.880 for Dan and more. I had a good friend whose 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.480 name is Pamela Crosby and for years she talked about 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:38.760 this guy named Jarvis Masters, who she considered her best 0:02:38.800 --> 0:02:42.120 friend or one of her best friends on death row 0:02:42.200 --> 0:02:46.359 inside Quentin. He was innocent, he'd become a Buddhist practitioner 0:02:46.480 --> 0:02:50.079 and teacher. And she described it in ways that you know, 0:02:50.120 --> 0:02:53.200 would have been extraordinary way to describe anybody, but somebody 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.200 in prison on death row for most of his life. 0:02:56.840 --> 0:03:00.600 You know, it was just remarkable about the way that 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.440 he connected with so many people that had in spite 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:06.880 of the fact that he lived in one of the 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:11.840 most depressing, dark, scary places imaginable, he still was filled 0:03:11.880 --> 0:03:15.000 with this light and joy, and he was positive. And 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.040 she would leave him and feel instead of, you know, 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.160 sort of depressed and and you know, broken hearted. I 0:03:21.200 --> 0:03:23.800 mean she felt that too, but she also talked about 0:03:23.800 --> 0:03:26.760 feeling uplifted because he was so much a great presence, 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:28.840 And she kept asking me to go visit him, and 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:30.440 I was busy. I didn't have time to do it. 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:34.240 And at one point I was doing an article for 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:38.160 the New York Times magazine about the warden at Saint Clinton, 0:03:38.240 --> 0:03:41.960 whose name was Jeane Whitford, and I asked DEDI if 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.640 she's heard about this guy and she had, and she 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:47.200 sort of confirmed some of the stories that I've heard 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:49.760 from Pamela. And it was after that the night I 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:52.840 went to see Jarvis, and I got it, you know, 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.000 I got it. I was with him, he was in 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:57.880 the adjustment center, so I was only able to meet 0:03:57.880 --> 0:04:01.560 with him with a piece of sence thick PLEXI class 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:04.920 between us. And even through that class, I understood why 0:04:05.160 --> 0:04:08.080 Pabla and other people quite spoken to by there and 0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:11.080 described him as as a very special person in their lives. 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.360 Did you ever been into a prison before. I had 0:04:14.400 --> 0:04:16.440 never been on death row. I had no idea what 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.039 to expect when I went in this room, the visiting hall, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:21.440 So yeah, I was. I was nervous. I was unsure. 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:25.040 And by the way, you know, I also knew that 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:29.479 everyone on death row, in fact, everyone in prison, is innocent. 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:32.880 I mean, nine nine percent probably will say that they're innocent, 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.240 and of course, you know, we know that most of 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:39.800 them aren't. So I was skeptical. I was not naive 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.480 when I went in there. In spite of what Pablo said, 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.920 I thought, you know, could he be this just really 0:04:44.920 --> 0:04:48.760 good manipulator? Who was you know, taking advantage of this 0:04:48.839 --> 0:04:52.160 very kind hearted woman, and so I went in there 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:56.960 with this uncertainty, this trepidation, this nervousness about going into 0:04:57.800 --> 0:04:59.600 a place where I knew, you know, some of them 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:03.839 was vile. In criminals, California is the last, probably fifty 0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.159 year history. We're there. It did not take long for 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:09.080 Jarvis to reassure me and to make me feel very 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:12.479 comfortable there. Following is a memory from the Buddhist on 0:05:12.560 --> 0:05:15.240 Death Row in which David first meets Jarvis in San 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.440 Quentin audiobook read by Michael Boatman. I sit in a 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:23.360 molded plastic chair on one side of a small table, 0:05:23.560 --> 0:05:28.280 opposite a man named Jarvis j. Masters. I tell him 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:31.159 I'm considering writing a book about him, and ask what 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:34.520 he thinks of the idea. I emphasize that if I 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:38.360 go forward, I'll report what I find, both the good 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.920 and the bad. I can't be painted worse than I've 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.919 been painted, Master says, and I guess that's true for 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:51.200 someone convicted of murder. I mean, he adds, look where 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:55.279 we are. Where we are is in a closet sized 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:59.640 cage among a dozen similar cages in a visitation hall 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.640 served for the condemned at San Quentin State Prison. I 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:08.120 follow Master's gaze as it sweeps the other cages in 0:06:08.160 --> 0:06:13.320 which convicted killers sit with family members or attorneys. Ramone 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:19.080 Bojorkez Salcido, convicted of murdering seven people, including his wife 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:24.240 and daughters, sits with his lawyer in a cage opposite ours. Nearby, 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:27.960 Richard Allan Davis, who raped and killed a twelve year 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:32.080 old girl much as Dorito's, in the cage on the end, 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:37.000 near a bookshelf lined with board games and bibles. Scott Peterson, 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:40.280 convicted of murdering his eight months pregnant wife and their 0:06:40.360 --> 0:06:46.240 unborn child, sits with his sister. Peterson looks relaxed and fit, 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:51.839 but some prisoners appear tense, agitated, or sullen. And then 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:57.440 there are guys diminutive, bespectacled, innocuous who look like tellers 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:03.040 or in one case John Oliver, there looks deceived. Masters 0:07:03.080 --> 0:07:07.239 says over the years he's been surprised when he's learned 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:10.720 about the crimes committed by the meekest and politest of 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:14.720 his death Row neighbors. Some of them have perfect manners, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:18.840 placed their napkins on their laps, but half of Iowa's missing. 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:23.400 What was it about? Jarvis he had already written to 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:29.760 autobiographical books, That Bird Has My Wings and Finding Freedom. 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:34.280 What did you want to write about Jarvis and accomplish 0:07:34.520 --> 0:07:37.440 with your book that that wasn't already accomplished with his 0:07:37.480 --> 0:07:41.760 own biography. That's a really good question. I had read 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:44.880 Jarvis's books, I didn't mention math even before I went 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.880 to see him. Yeah, it really was impressed by them 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.120 and moved by them. I really got insights both to 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.000 his life, his history, and also to his mind his 0:07:54.120 --> 0:08:01.840 spiritual practice. I guess I was still ascinated, really intrigued, 0:08:01.880 --> 0:08:05.240 and maybe even in a personal way, drawn to Jarvis's 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.440 story because it was about how people can change, how 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.520 a person changed, and it was something that I struggle 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:14.160 with and and continue to struggle with in my life, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.760 people around me suffering, and I felt that, you know, 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.120 there was a story that was must to be told. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.560 I mean, Jervis's perspective on things was amazing and fascinating. 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.240 But when we see a person from the outside, we 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:31.360 see the story in a different way. And I saw 0:08:31.440 --> 0:08:35.960 this a challenge because it was very unlike anything I'd 0:08:36.040 --> 0:08:40.240 ever written before, and the challenge was to write about change, 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:45.800 to write about a person's spiritual transformation requires going inside 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.600 their head, and so much of that process is internal, 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:52.439 especially when you're sitting in the jail cell there we 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.120 know you know it retreats up the mountains to tobout 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:59.280 to to you know, to visit the guru um and 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.680 so you to to go into that world to try 0:09:02.720 --> 0:09:05.440 it was a challenge to try to figure out, you know, 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:07.400 how to how to tell that story. And it was 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:10.439 very meaningful to me in the personal way. As I said, 0:09:11.440 --> 0:09:13.160 when I was here from Pamel and by then I 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:14.720 met some of his other friends, and I met his 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:19.839 teacher Pama children. And the idea that the person on 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.720 death row who had the brutal life that he had 0:09:24.280 --> 0:09:28.200 was someone who could instruct all of us, who teach 0:09:28.320 --> 0:09:32.480 us uh, it seemed in some ways inconceivable. So I 0:09:32.480 --> 0:09:35.120 wanted to find out. I wanted to understand who he 0:09:35.240 --> 0:09:39.480 was and what that experience was and what that message was, 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:55.600 and to see if it was true. Relationship began very tentatively. 0:09:56.040 --> 0:10:01.240 I knew him from his biography and through his friends UM, 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:03.800 but I didn't really know him and didn't know personally, 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:07.240 and he certainly didn't know me. In our relationship, like 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:11.559 any relationship evolved. The evolved evolved slowly, very slowly. We 0:10:11.640 --> 0:10:16.000 got to know each other, and it wasn't I mean, 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:20.840 a small part of it was my deciding to commit 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.320 to writing about him, because that's hard, you know, talk about. 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:28.880 But the bigger part challenge actually came from his side, 0:10:28.960 --> 0:10:32.080 which is to see if, over the course of our 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.160 getting to know each other, that Jarvis would come to 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:38.440 trust me to tell his story. I mean, it is 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:43.080 a lot to ask someone. And so it evolved very 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.760 very very slowly, and I started to have the kinds 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:50.800 of experience as other people talked about with him. You know, 0:10:50.840 --> 0:10:53.200 he never intended to be some you know, sort of 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:56.960 guru spiritual teacher. In fact, he you know, he laughed 0:10:57.000 --> 0:11:01.400 and almost in some ways even disdainful of the idea 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.800 that he was. But I began to have experiences with 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.200 him where I really did feel like I was both 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:12.200 learning from him and was inspired by him and then 0:11:12.280 --> 0:11:15.160 attracted other parts of my life. Can you give an 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:19.839 example of that. Those experiences, there were just so many, 0:11:19.840 --> 0:11:21.679 and they happened over time, and I think that I 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:24.080 think for going deep with him was maybe meaningful to 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.240 him too, because I do know that there were many 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:30.000 times when all of a sudden we would kind of 0:11:30.040 --> 0:11:33.680 be lifted out of that grim visiting room inside Saint 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:35.960 Quentin and we were somewhere else, and I think that 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:38.679 we both shared it and I would look at each 0:11:38.720 --> 0:11:41.440 other and suddenly be back in that room and realized, God, 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.280 where did we just go? Um? You know the one 0:11:45.320 --> 0:11:47.440 that I guess that I ended up telling him in 0:11:47.480 --> 0:11:51.960 the book that really sort of into into me says it. 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.600 But I visited Jarvis on Christmas Day in the visiting room, 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:01.199 and when you visit in May in the family visiting room. 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:02.920 At the difference, I mean one that I generally met. 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.000 Hey man, I met him in the legal visiting room, 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:08.920 which is quiet cages. I mean it's not quiet. It's 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:12.120 nothing in St. Quyton is quiet. But the family visiting 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.640 room has families, has kids, has laughter, has yelling and crying. 0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.760 There's many many that's bigger. So I was in this 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.120 room with him and we were talking, and I was 0:12:22.160 --> 0:12:27.800 looking around and I was seeing what to me was 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:33.679 so sad. It was all these children and wives, their 0:12:33.760 --> 0:12:39.520 girlfriends and parents and brothers and sisters who on Christmas 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:45.200 had come to visit the person that they loved in prison. Uh. 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:48.080 They're chained when they walk in there, they're locked in 0:12:48.080 --> 0:12:53.440 this cage. And it was heartbreaking to me, and I 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:56.880 just started to say something to Jervis. I started to say, 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.880 oh my god, this is so sad, these poor people 0:13:00.000 --> 0:13:04.559 having to come see the person that they loved in 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:09.280 president on death row on Christmas. And just then Jarvis, 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.240 you know, he had this like light as he was 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:15.079 looking around the room and what he saw. He said, 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.040 look at the love in this room. Uh, look at 0:13:19.040 --> 0:13:23.600 the love. You know, these fathers with their children, their girlfriends, 0:13:23.600 --> 0:13:27.600 their wives, their parents. And suddenly I realized I saw 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:29.960 through Jervis's eyes, and I got it, and it was 0:13:30.280 --> 0:13:34.320 moving to me. I know you're not a Buddhist, but 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.800 I assume there was a pretty high learning curve to 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:41.120 tell his story, the story of a of a true 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.400 Buddhist was that intimidating. Yeah. I had, you know, a 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:49.319 very very very shallow idea of knowledge about what it 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:52.040 what Buddhism is. And I was told by you know, 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.360 Jervis's friend and teacher, Pami Schodren that she thought, ultimately 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:58.560 it was a really good thing that someone who wasn't 0:13:58.559 --> 0:14:01.560 to Buddhist came in to tell the story because I 0:14:01.600 --> 0:14:04.000 came into this in the same way Jarvis came into 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.080 it not only not a Buddhist but cynical religion and 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:14.160 spiritualism and spirituality. And so I was guided into Buddhism, 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:19.000 understanding Buddhism just like he was. And he didn't did 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:20.800 his teachers did it. Because I had a lot of 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:24.680 conversations with his teachers, and I came to understand. I mean, 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:30.640 I never went to the formal religion of Buddhism, and 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:32.400 not at the Jarvis I don't think. I mean, I 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.960 think I too was moved by the stories and the 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.240 cons and and the experience just the just the Buddhist 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:42.320 perspective on life that has to do with recognizing suffering, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:48.880 connecting with other people, realizing a responsibility to try to 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.240 alleviate suffering when we do see it. I mean, I 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:54.040 got all that. By the end, I really understood it. 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:56.240 And I still can't tell you the names of you know, 0:14:56.280 --> 0:15:00.280 the various the Buddhism, the incarnations and all that, and 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:03.520 and but I got the essence. And Jarvis told me 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:08.080 that Buddhist is there for anybody. Jarvis's first introduction to 0:15:08.200 --> 0:15:12.160 the tenants of Buddhism arrived, not coincidentally, the day after 0:15:12.200 --> 0:15:15.320 the State of California had officially sentenced him to death. 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:18.640 Here is his memory of that life altering day and 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.600 excerpt from the Buddhist on death Row. The next morning, 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:26.680 breakfast was delivered as usual, and the day progressed as 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:31.640 if nothing had changed. Also as usual, the mail was delivered. 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:36.360 In the evening, Jarvis examined a large envelope from someone 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:40.400 named Lisa Leghorn, who, in a note explained that she 0:15:40.560 --> 0:15:44.800 was an assistant and interpreter to chag dud Toolkul Rinpoche, 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:50.320 the Buddhist llama Jarvis had written two months before. Leghorn 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:53.480 wrote that Rinpoche was glad that Jarvis had reached out 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.480 to him, and she referred to a small book in 0:15:56.560 --> 0:16:01.840 the package entitled Life in Relation to Death, which contained 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.280 a transcript of a talk by the Lama. Read it, 0:16:05.920 --> 0:16:10.800 she said, see if it speaks to you. Jarvis picked 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:16.359 the book up and was instantly transfixed. On the first page, 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.160 the llama described death as a subject people often ignore 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:23.760 or think about frivolously, as if it were no big deal. 0:16:24.840 --> 0:16:28.480 Then the author wrote, this is a nice theory until 0:16:28.640 --> 0:16:34.800 one is dying, then experience and theory differ, he continued. 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:40.720 Then one is powerless and everything familiar is lost. One 0:16:40.760 --> 0:16:46.960 is overwhelmed by a great turbulence of fear, disorientation, and confusion. 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:51.320 For this reason, it is essential to prepare well in 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:55.239 advance for the moment when the mind and body separate. 0:16:57.000 --> 0:17:02.080 Jarvis closed the book and breathed deeply. A familiar, choking 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.919 emotion welled up in him. Anguish, but he read on. 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.080 The teacher said that all people should prepare for death, 0:17:11.760 --> 0:17:15.560 and one approach was to picture the ways they might die. 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:21.080 He listed an airplane crash, an automobile accident, a terminal illness, 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:25.560 and being stabbed by a mugger. He didn't mention the 0:17:25.640 --> 0:17:33.040 gas chamber. Another approach was called meditative contemplations. Jarvis read 0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:35.400 through them quickly until he got to one that made 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:40.600 him shudder. People should ask themselves two questions every night 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:44.919 before bed. If I die tonight in my sleep, what 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:48.879 have I done with my life? Have I been of benefit? 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:54.480 Or have I caused harm? Jarvis needed no time to 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:58.400 ponder his answer. He knew that he'd benefited no one, 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:05.119 and he'd caused immeasurable harm. He read all night. Dawn 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.159 was breaking as he turned the final page, but he 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:12.720 was wide awake. He didn't believe in omens, but he 0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:15.480 reeled at the thought that during his first day on 0:18:15.640 --> 0:18:19.639 death Row, the mail had brought him a guide to dying. 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:35.800 Biographer David Chef continues, even though I still not a 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:39.840 Buddhist side get it. It's kind of so useful to me. 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:42.399 The less of the Buddhism are useful to me. Meditation 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:47.120 this profound. I didn't get that either until I heard 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.040 about Jarvis's journey into meditation and learned how it really 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:54.560 changed his life. So all that I took away from experience. 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.280 What has impacted you the most in learning the lessons? 0:18:58.840 --> 0:19:02.479 Is it the meditation specif? Well, you know, meditation is profound. 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:04.199 But the reason that it was profound to me is 0:19:04.200 --> 0:19:07.720 when it's the same, it's sort of the message overall 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.080 that Jarvis learned them that I learned from Jarvis's experience, 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.720 which is that my idea of meditation when you sit 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.040 with your eyes closed and your legs crossed and your 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:21.800 spine straight, and you sort of bliss out, you know, 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:24.000 to time out. It's a way to get away from 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:27.280 the rest of your stresses in your life. But what 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:30.440 Jarvis learned the hard way and I ended up learning 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:33.840 the hard way, is that's not what happens. I mean, yeah, 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:37.560 there are those moments, but also you know, you're if 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.159 you're opening your mind, you're opening your mind to whatever 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.640 is inside you. Some of what is inside you is 0:19:45.000 --> 0:19:48.199 pain and heard and trauma. And you know, this lesson 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.560 that I saw that was a result of meditation, it's 0:19:52.560 --> 0:19:56.560 really the ultimate was the ultimate challenge, I think for 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.720 Jarvis and for me, which is, you know, be beyond meditation. 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:04.000 You know, it's sort of summed with this, you know, 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.600 I guess in some ways that's the biggest cliche, but 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:09.000 it says, you know, the only way out is through, 0:20:10.119 --> 0:20:13.080 which means, you know, the only way to get through 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:16.320 the traumas that we experience, the only way to move 0:20:16.359 --> 0:20:18.399 forward in our lives, to be better, to be a 0:20:18.440 --> 0:20:21.679 better person, to have relationships that are more meaningful. You 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.840 can't run from it. You got to go back into it, 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.280 and it is hard and it is painful, but that 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.879 is what I was left with more than anything. So 0:20:31.040 --> 0:20:33.760 he when I was talking with him when he was 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:36.760 on his most recent hunger strike, I was asking him 0:20:37.040 --> 0:20:41.119 you know, does he pass the time through meditation? And 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.359 his answer was, he's not sitting down and meditating. He said, 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.080 he wants to be fully present. He doesn't want to escape, 0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:51.960 he doesn't want to escape the experience. And I just thought, 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:58.359 holy cow, that is not the ultimate. And that's you know, 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:00.280 that's what he said to me at one point two. 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.560 I mean, he was meditating for a period of time, 0:21:03.359 --> 0:21:06.199 hours every day, but at one point he said to 0:21:06.240 --> 0:21:10.520 me that he meditates all the time or never, whichever 0:21:10.600 --> 0:21:12.080 however you want to look at it. But it is 0:21:12.160 --> 0:21:14.399 being present in that moment, and that's something that you 0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:17.040 learned from meditation. And I think that's probably the goal 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.200 of being a Buddhist is or or a meditating whatever 0:21:20.240 --> 0:21:22.280 it is, is that when it becomes who you are 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.320 and you start to perceive the world and feel the 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:28.680 world and experience the world in a very different way. 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:31.359 And I guess I feel like, you know, that's a 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:34.960 good observation that you know, the way you just explained it. Yeah, 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:37.040 I have found it, and I know you and I 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:41.280 have discussed the fact that and it's I've talked to 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.199 so many people interviewing them for the podcast that to 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.440 know Jervis is to love Jarvis and and people use 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:50.560 that exact phrase. What do you think it is about 0:21:50.640 --> 0:21:56.280 him that that makes him such a compelling central character? Well, 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.240 I love Jarvis, and love is not something that I 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.440 come to you never have in my life, and it 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:06.200 is you know, about the relationship that grew and developed 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:12.440 over time with somebody who was as open and gentle 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:18.119 and kind and loving um as anyone. And you know, 0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.200 I came in there as the interviewer, you know, the 0:22:20.280 --> 0:22:26.760 journalist to record his story. But I mean this great 0:22:26.760 --> 0:22:29.080 friend who I still consider one of the dearest friends 0:22:29.080 --> 0:22:32.439 in my life, and the relationship was reciprocal. You know, 0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:34.240 I was there when Jarvis had some of the most 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:36.399 challenging times that he's had in the last you know, 0:22:36.640 --> 0:22:41.920 five six years, huge disappointments related to relationships and big, 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:45.639 big disappointments related to his appeals, his cases, you know, 0:22:45.680 --> 0:22:49.440 his case moving forward. That Jarvis has been there for me, 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:53.240 uh in so many different circumstances. You know, I lost 0:22:53.240 --> 0:22:55.320 a dear friend and he was the one that was 0:22:55.359 --> 0:22:58.000 on the phone checking in with me. I was sick 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:00.760 for a while and he was checking with me as well. 0:23:00.800 --> 0:23:02.760 And even when I was well enough to go visit again. 0:23:03.800 --> 0:23:05.720 That was always the first thing, you know, and he 0:23:05.840 --> 0:23:08.200 did it sometimes he teach me about it. You know, God, 0:23:08.359 --> 0:23:11.320 you look terrible. He was letting going on with you. 0:23:12.160 --> 0:23:14.840 But it was very genuine and very open, and it 0:23:14.960 --> 0:23:16.840 was this relationship. And that's how I guess, you know, 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:20.760 relationships develop, and closeness develops, and friendships developed, and eventually, 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.520 you know, it was a very very few because of 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.000 the combination of those things. And maybe there's something else 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.399 that I don't fully understand. It is this chemistry or 0:23:30.440 --> 0:23:33.480 there is a spiritual connection that it does become a 0:23:33.480 --> 0:23:37.200 different kind of relationship and it does feel different. And yes, 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:39.919 it said Jervis is connected with others and family. My 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:42.560 son Jasper went to visit him. My wife Karen went 0:23:42.640 --> 0:23:44.600 to visit him, and she fell in love with him. 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:48.240 Do Dandy writes him these beautiful letters. Jasper, Jasper and 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:53.880 Jarvis communicate by letters and occasionally Virus will be able 0:23:53.920 --> 0:23:56.480 to call him and there's a real connection. And my 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:58.000 son Nick was going to go see him too, but 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:00.240 because Dick was once arrested when he was and he 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:03.520 was he was a lot of good. But you know, 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:05.320 he does feel like you know. I know other people 0:24:05.359 --> 0:24:06.520 have said this to you, but he feels like a 0:24:06.560 --> 0:24:09.440 part of our family and he always will Yeah, yeah, 0:24:09.760 --> 0:24:14.959 the same with me. He always asked whenever he signs 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:19.119 off the ice, is how's big Mama? What he calls 0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:24.040 my mother? So cool? Yeah, and he does. He cares. 0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:26.440 At one time. I mean, this is probably not even 0:24:26.640 --> 0:24:30.040 in parts to tell, but quickly I was sitting my 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:33.960 father in law. Caron's parents are a hundred and ninety 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:38.240 four years old, respectively, and one time he called him. 0:24:38.240 --> 0:24:40.159 I was talking to my in law and I was 0:24:40.200 --> 0:24:42.119 going to call him back, but then I said, um, 0:24:42.160 --> 0:24:46.400 I took his call, and I said, hey, because they've 0:24:46.400 --> 0:24:48.240 heard stories about Jars three years, I always asked you 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:49.840 about him, and I put him on speaker phone, and 0:24:49.880 --> 0:24:52.359 it was absolutely the greatest playing. Mother in law his 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:55.520 hysterical and she she was saying, God, I wish you 0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:58.040 could come over for dinner tonight, and when you get 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:00.960