WEBVTT - The Sixth Bureau Episode 4: The Duck Analogy 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:07.240 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 0:00:08.280 --> 0:00:11.080 A quick note, this is the fourth episode of our series. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 If you missed the first three, we recommend going back 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:15.000 and listening in order. 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:20.400 Thanks. Who are we here to talk about Shoe and June? 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:24.439 Jordan and I are in Cincinnati across the table from 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.920 FBI Special Agent Bradley Hall. You've been hearing Bradley talk 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.920 about Shoe over the last couple episodes, but now you're 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:33.320 going to hear from him in a different way. You're 0:00:33.320 --> 0:00:35.400 going to hear about his own involvement in this case, 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:38.840 which begins when ge engineered David John comes back from 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:41.760 his trip to China, the trip where he met Shoe 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:42.479 yen June. 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.000 When we sat down with Bradley, we already knew how 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:49.720 David had gotten on shoes radar LinkedIn, but that didn't 0:00:49.760 --> 0:00:53.159 explain how David had gotten on the FBI's radar, or, 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:55.880 for that matter, how Shoe did, and that was something 0:00:55.960 --> 0:00:59.480 we really wanted to know. So how does this case 0:00:59.520 --> 0:00:59.920 begin for you? 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:03.840 So when you guys flew here, I imagine you had 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.800 digital tickets right right If you buy a ticket last minute, 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.120 or you buy in cash, or there's a number of 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:14.480 different traits. The airlines are required to report that to TSA. 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:17.399 And if you ever get a ticket it has four 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:19.880 s's on it, it means you've hit two or three 0:01:19.959 --> 0:01:23.440 of those criteria, which usually means someone's going to give 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.920 you a secondary search. Well, when the ge engineering returned 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:28.920 to the United States from his trip to China, he 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.560 had these codes on his tickets. He was offered a 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:33.800 secondary inspection. 0:01:34.120 --> 0:01:37.080 At which point they found cash on David Jones, a 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:40.640 lot of cash sixteen thousand dollars. 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:45.320 That was not well explained. And that's a starting point 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:45.920 for this case. 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:50.360 And so like, did Jang buy his ticket with cash 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:53.360 or a last minute or was there something else that 0:01:53.400 --> 0:01:55.240 led to him being secondary? Is there anything we can 0:01:55.280 --> 0:01:55.800 say about that? 0:01:56.600 --> 0:01:58.040 I actually don't know the answer that question. 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:03.720 Okay, can we talk any more about the secondary It 0:02:03.760 --> 0:02:07.040 seems like even if you had maybe known something before, 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.880 is that kind of the first moment we can talk 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:12.480 about in his case? 0:02:13.160 --> 0:02:14.720 I don't know if I get any more detail than that. 0:02:15.320 --> 0:02:19.720 Okay, So he was secondary, he did have his cash, right, 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:23.880 it sounds like this was the moment that kind of 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.440 led to everything else that we then have. Is that 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:27.240 roughly correct? 0:02:28.040 --> 0:02:28.120 Now? 0:02:28.240 --> 0:02:31.160 Let's just leave it at that for now, I think, okay. 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.360 So Bradley was not going to tell us where this 0:02:37.480 --> 0:02:40.680 case started, and as much as we tried, we could 0:02:40.680 --> 0:02:43.240 never get anyone to tell us where this case started. 0:02:44.000 --> 0:02:45.799 We do know there were a bunch of hacks the 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.840 FBI trace to the six Bureau years before, which allowed 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:51.480 them to see some of Shu's colleagues correspondence with each other. 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:54.360 We also know that cases like this one can start 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:57.600 with the NSA flagging some email addressed or text or 0:02:57.720 --> 0:03:00.760 geotag or really any sort of digital foot we're leaving 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.440 behind all the time, and so we think it's likely 0:03:03.520 --> 0:03:05.960 that at least one of Shoe's email addresses was flagged 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.200 before he started talking with David John. So when he did, 0:03:09.480 --> 0:03:13.040 the FBI noticed, got David secondary at the airport and 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:14.639 found the cash. 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:16.919 And when the lead about Shoe and David came in, 0:03:17.480 --> 0:03:21.400 it landed on Bradley Hall's desk because David John worked 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:25.760 at thee Aviation, which was headquartered in Cincinnati, and Bradley 0:03:26.080 --> 0:03:28.840 was the FBI's only counterintelligence agent there. 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:33.760 We are spy hunters. We spy on the spies, We 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.000 track the people whose job it is to not be recognized, 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:39.640 to not be identified, to blend in. A drug dealer 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:43.640 sells drugs, right, that's ipso facto illegal. It's very black 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.360 and white. Counter Intelligence exists in the gray. These are 0:03:47.360 --> 0:03:50.080 people who are trained to blend in, who are trained 0:03:50.080 --> 0:03:53.760 to do things that look normal. So to find that 0:03:53.760 --> 0:03:56.040 piece of illegality is very, very difficult. 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:00.160 Bradley is an intense guy. I mean we talked to 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.640 him for almost six hours. We ate lunch, he didn't. 0:04:03.880 --> 0:04:06.920 We drank coffee, he didn't. We sipped from our bottles 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:09.120 of water. He basically didn't. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.000 Let's take some morner, no finder. 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.520 He's worked counterintelligence for his entire FBI career, and he 0:04:15.640 --> 0:04:17.840 chose it because someone told him it was the most 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:19.360 challenging thing the Bureau does. 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:22.960 If you have a fifteen a saxa in front of 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:25.960 you saying the hardest thing that we do is kindter intelligence. 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:27.599 That peaked my interest. 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.440 But spy hunting isn't always as badass as it sounds. 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.800 For instance, the first thing Bradley had to do after 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:38.240 getting this lead was go to David Jones' employer and 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:39.320 ask for their help. 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:41.800 We went to Ge and said, you know, we have 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.560 a concern. We by no means have a full picture, 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:46.520 but we would like you to work with us. 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:48.799 The bureau came in and said, you guys have a problem. 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:51.640 This is Art Cummings, who at the time was chief 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.080 security officer for all of GE's businesses. 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:55.200 This is your problem. 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:59.200 But this is the opportunity, the opportunity to work together. 0:04:59.240 --> 0:05:03.320 To potentially expose this intelligence officer whose job is to 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:07.320 steal IP from American companies. That's just a beautiful operation. 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.679 Beautiful for the FBI, but not necessarily for GE. 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.320 A lot of companies. I would have said, thank you 0:05:14.400 --> 0:05:16.680 very much, what's the person's name, fired them, and walked 0:05:16.720 --> 0:05:17.440 away from it. 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:22.159 Because the proposal raised serious risks. Helping an investigation that 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.680 might lead to a trial would only draw attention to 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:27.680 the fact that GE had had a security breach, which 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:29.719 is a bad look when one of the major buyers 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:32.680 of your jet engines is the US military. 0:05:32.440 --> 0:05:35.919 From like, guyser, are you prepared to expose this to 0:05:36.080 --> 0:05:39.520 DoD that you have billions of dollars of business with 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:42.600 That shows that you were sloppy with their IP or 0:05:42.640 --> 0:05:46.520 with your IP buddy. That is a bad message all 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:47.719 the way across the board. 0:05:48.160 --> 0:05:51.680 Plus, GE does a lot of business in China. Working 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.039 with the FBI on a case that accused China of 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:58.599 stealing trade secrets could jeopardize that business, but not working 0:05:58.640 --> 0:06:03.240 with the FBI with its own risks. The fact that 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.240 the MSS was targeting David John meant they were after 0:06:06.279 --> 0:06:08.159 some of GE's most sensitive information. 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:12.800 He was one of about ten to twelve engineers who 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:16.920 are specifically on carbon fan blades and carbon fan blaid 0:06:17.080 --> 0:06:20.520 encasements on the GE engine system series. 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.280 That's a very small group of people working on a 0:06:23.360 --> 0:06:24.520 very important technology. 0:06:24.720 --> 0:06:27.560 Yes, G is the only company in the world has 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:31.760 ever commercialized this technique. Many have tried and failed, but 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:34.839 GE is the only one. They're the crown jewel of 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:36.320 jet engines. 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:42.520 I'd say the loss of their most advanced commercial jet 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:44.280 engine is a billion dollars. 0:06:45.160 --> 0:06:46.880 If they lost it, and. 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:50.240 There's future revenue, and there's just that generation. The next 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.440 generation jet engine builds on that one, and then the 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:55.280 next one on that one, and then the next one 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.159 on that one. That's real? 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.880 Is that GE anymore? We tried repeatedly to talk to 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:05.599 the company for the story, but they declined to comment 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:06.159 each time. 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.240 Ultimately, GE did decide to cooperate with the FBI. 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:14.440 There were enough people, particularly in the C suite, who 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.080 were who were open to the idea of okay, let's 0:07:17.080 --> 0:07:18.960 work with the FBI and see what we can do 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:20.400 to protect ourselves. 0:07:20.720 --> 0:07:23.760 So Ge was in, but Bradley still had to convince 0:07:23.800 --> 0:07:25.400 one more person to get on board. 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.640 David juhn oh I wanted to turn him to use 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:30.160 him to operate against the namassas. 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.560 Bradley wanted to make David his double. 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:39.400 The double is someone who represents himself for herself as 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:43.240 cooperating with the Foreign Intelligence Service, but actually under the 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:48.240 control of our service, and it is a very delicate 0:07:48.560 --> 0:07:55.920 kind of operation because you have to persuade professional counterintelligence 0:07:55.960 --> 0:07:58.560 people on the other side that this is legitimate. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.720 The double agent David would help the FBI try to 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.840 learn the details of who this MSS officer actually was 0:08:06.360 --> 0:08:09.520 and maybe even help catch him, and it was a 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:13.400 good moment to try. In twenty seventeen, Donald Trump had 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:16.320 just taken office for the first time and his administration 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:19.400 was gung ho about going after China, so there was 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:22.080 support at the highest levels of government for nabbing an 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:25.760 MSS officer, but actually pulling it off would be a 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:30.400 real hail Mary because it had literally never happened before. 0:08:30.960 --> 0:08:32.520 There was a lot of do you really think this 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:36.080 is going to work? And your response was positive, is 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:36.560 going to work? 0:08:39.160 --> 0:08:43.120 From Bloomberg News and iHeart podcasts, this is the Sixth Bureau. 0:08:43.640 --> 0:08:46.240 I'm Jordan Robertson and I'm Drake Bennett. 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:58.360 On November first, twenty seventeen, David John started his day 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.080 like any other day. Cup He drove to work and 0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.600 then a few hours later he was called into a 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:06.480 meeting by GE Corporate Security. 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.360 The engineer doesn't know exactly how much hot water he's in. 0:09:10.960 --> 0:09:13.440 This is Mike Regal, an agent who has pulled into 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:14.720 work with Bradley on the case. 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:19.600 He had like an interaction with you know, GE security 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.360 people that was more like a general type discussion, kind 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:24.080 of an opener. 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:28.240 GE Security asked David about some unusual activity they'd noticed, 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:32.199 specifically the five sensitive files he'd transferred onto his personal 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:33.960 computer before going to China. 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:36.280 They literally walk out, they say someone else wants to 0:09:36.280 --> 0:09:36.600 speak to. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:42.400 You, and then we come in. I'm sure his stress 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:46.240 level went one hundredfold because obviously the guy's kind of 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:49.600 in shock. It comes for like kind of like a 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:53.920 meeting with security guys and two FBI people come walking in. 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:56.920 It was a room meant for sixty seventy people and 0:09:57.000 --> 0:09:59.440 were sat at one tiny little corner of a table. 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:01.920 We indicate that we are there for the same reason 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:06.120 the G was there. These files were moved. We've learned 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.520 from G that they went to China. That's a concern 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:10.680 for us. Let's talk about it. And that's how the 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:11.840 conversation starts. 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.360 You know, you could have somebody that just unburdens himself 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.760 and says, I know what you guys are here about. 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:19.920 He didn't do that. 0:10:20.600 --> 0:10:20.760 No. 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:24.600 They start by asking David about his trip to China, 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.160 why he went, what he did, who he saw. 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.400 You have to kind of eat this steak and small bites. 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:34.120 David gives them a partial story. 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.959 He went to a wedding, he went to a class reunion, 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.520 he visited family back in the provinces, and then he 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:41.040 flew home. 0:10:43.000 --> 0:10:46.560 He leaves out one thing his talk in Nanjing at 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.800 the university. So Bradley and Mike remind him. 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:52.760 We started talking about the fact that he had done 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:54.439 a presentation without talking to G. 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.840 His brain is thinking, let me think of a way 0:10:57.840 --> 0:10:59.320 to get out of this. Can I think of a 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:01.800 way to get out this? Okay, let me give let 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:04.320 me give a different version of that. I gave it talk, 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.160 but it's not on important stuff. 0:11:08.320 --> 0:11:11.319 But Bradley and Mike already know exactly what GE files 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:12.760 David took with him to China. 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:16.240 Here's the file that you downloaded on March the twenty seventh, 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:19.040 and here's the image that has GE proprietary on it 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:21.640 that you cropped out when you put in your PowerPoint. Oops. 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.760 They know about that. They've got that power point. 0:11:26.040 --> 0:11:28.559 There was a lot of I forgot to mentions. 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:31.440 Then they ask him about all the cash he came 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.520 back with. He lies about the amount and says it 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:35.760 was repayment for a loan. 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.160 I call it progressive truth telling. I let them tell 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:41.720 the lie, and then I go back and I encounter 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:45.800 it point by point. I had the bank records that 0:11:45.840 --> 0:11:47.880 showed where he'd put the sixteen thousand dollars the cash. 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.160 I'm gonna show you ten ways past Sunday that I 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:52.440 know what day you put the money in, which account 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.520 of went is like, don't, don't, don't play right, just 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:55.080 I know. 0:11:55.720 --> 0:12:00.040 So he's changing over time to the point where he 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.720 emotionally just can't do it anymore. 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:08.360 Like you could watch the realization wash over him that oh, 0:12:09.280 --> 0:12:11.240 this is more than just I downlois some files I 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.839 shouldn't have. This is now something else. 0:12:15.960 --> 0:12:18.800 The questions keep coming and there doesn't seem to be 0:12:18.840 --> 0:12:22.320 any escape. When David gets hungry, Bradley and Mike eat 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:24.280 with him. When he has to go to the bathroom, 0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.199 they go with him. The walls were closing in. 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:33.360 It's a voluntary interview, and he needs to know during 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:37.079 a voluntary interview that it's very important that he can leave. 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:39.880 It wasn't there, It wasn't his car being towed, and like. 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:40.839 He couldn't drive away. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:45.080 Well, so there's being free to leave and having some 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:47.920 logistical issues are two different things, right. 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:54.000 The logistical issues Mike is referring to look something like this. 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.480 While the FBI is talking to David, his phone is confiscated, 0:12:58.840 --> 0:13:01.520 his car sees from the ge parking lot, and his 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.400 house is searched. Bradley hands him a phone so he 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:06.800 can call his wife. They tell him to put her 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.319 on speaker and to speak in English. David tells her 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:11.400 not to go home. 0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:13.960 Because the FBI had just kicked in their back door. 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:18.319 It's a short call. He hangs up, and the questioning continues. 0:13:18.720 --> 0:13:22.360 So this goes on for a long time, to the 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:26.000 point that he he kind of I remember him breaking down. 0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.720 There's like a slumping of the shoulders. There's you know, 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.640 an audible exhale where they go from that person who 0:13:35.640 --> 0:13:37.520 thinks they're walking out of the room that day to 0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.880 somebody realized that their life is fundamentally changed. We go 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:42.760 from you know, the proper engineer who sits up with 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:44.560 his hands on the table. We start getting to lean 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:46.840 back for the lies, and then by the end, you know, 0:13:46.880 --> 0:13:50.000 he's slumped down in the chair right before he actually 0:13:50.080 --> 0:13:53.400 you know, starts to starts to tear up, like he 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:54.480 started crying. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:58.160 And finally telling the whole story. 0:13:58.120 --> 0:13:59.760 He gives us as much as he could remember. 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:03.520 David acknowledges that he knew something was fishy about the 0:14:03.559 --> 0:14:04.440 cash he was handed. 0:14:04.440 --> 0:14:07.240 After his talk, he eventually called it dark money. That 0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.640 he had known he had received dark money from someone 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:14.000 in China, so deep down, maybe not as he was 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:18.000 initially given the presentation, but after the fact that realization 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:20.440 was there that he knew that it was dark money, 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:22.600 he maybe not have known it was the MSS specifically, 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.160 but at this point you'd be hard pressed to be 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.640 ignorant to that type of thing happening. 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:32.040 And yet Bradley and Mike couldn't help but empathize a 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:35.360 little why being invited to share his expertise at this 0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:38.720 prestigious university in the country where he grew up was 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:39.880 so appealing to David. 0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:44.600 He came from a very rural village. He literally was 0:14:44.600 --> 0:14:46.160 the son of a big farmer, like he grew up 0:14:46.200 --> 0:14:48.480 on dirt floors. He was the first person not only 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.680 in his family but from his village to go to college. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.160 He was one of about ten to twelve engineers who 0:14:54.200 --> 0:14:59.160 worked specifically on carbon fan blades and carbon fan blaid encasements. 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:01.720 This was a chance for him to brack about it. 0:15:02.280 --> 0:15:04.760 I know the secret sauce I'm one of very few 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:06.880 people can do it. So there was an ego part to. 0:15:06.840 --> 0:15:11.120 It, right, and I understand that. I understand that motivation 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.480 that this guy basically is like, I'm proud of my work. 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:17.840 I like what I do, I'm excited about this. The 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:22.480 MSS preyed on people that want to talk about what 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.640 they do because they're proud of it. They're excited about it. 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.680 They find it interesting. It's like, hey, we really like 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.920 to hear about this. This sounds like great stuff. Would 0:15:30.960 --> 0:15:33.680 you like to come give a talk about this? Is 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:35.720 that ego? Yes, I guess it kind of is, but 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:43.600 it's human. Yeah. 0:15:44.040 --> 0:15:48.440 David was suspended without pay and eventually let go, But 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.840 unemployment wasn't the worst thing he was facing. He could 0:15:51.880 --> 0:15:55.640 see possible prison time for violating expert control laws and 0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:59.960 for lying to federal agents. Or he could cooperate. 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:03.520 You say, okay, there is a path forward, and you 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:05.640 start to talk very gently about what that path can 0:16:05.760 --> 0:16:09.800 look like and that, hopefully at the end, will improve 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.000 their position vice where it is right now, which is 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:17.800 pretty bad. We couched it like this. You did wrong. 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.280 You know you did wrong. You lied to me, you 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.440 kept lying to me. You finally told me the truth, 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.440 but you just set off to do this. They came 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:30.479 to you, So how about we go get them. 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:32.880 They told them to sleep on it. It had been 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.320 a long day, a really long day. 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:40.320 I was exhausted, you know. The interview was ours. I 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.600 can't remember the exact number for some reason. Seven sticks 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:45.240 in my brain, but it's hours long. 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:46.840 Seven hours and forty two minutes. 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.920 When it was done, Bradley and Mike drove David home 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:55.960 because he had no car or phone. 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:57.040 What was that ride like? 0:16:57.720 --> 0:16:58.960 Quiet? 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:05.520 You're hearing only from Bradley and Mike here, because, as 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:07.800 we said in the last episode, we tried really hard 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:10.399 to talk to David John, but he wouldn't talk to us. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.639 We didn't get to hear from him directly what that 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:14.760 day and night was like for him and how he 0:17:14.840 --> 0:17:16.720 went about weighing his options. 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:20.600 Agreeing to be a double would be a huge risk 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:23.920 for David. He'd be going up against the powerful intelligence 0:17:23.960 --> 0:17:27.320 apparatus of China, the country where he was born and 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:31.320 raised and still had family. He had good reason to 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:35.040 say no, but it was that or those potential charges 0:17:35.320 --> 0:17:41.000 and prison time, so he agreed to cooperate. The next day, 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.040 he got a lawyer and signed a non prosecution agreement 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:46.760 saying that no charges would be brought against him in 0:17:46.800 --> 0:17:50.800 return for working with the FBI. It was time to 0:17:50.880 --> 0:18:02.560 go spy hunting. With David on board, the FBI made 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:06.960 their first move under Bradley's direction. David got back in 0:18:07.040 --> 0:18:10.479 touch with his contacts in Nanjing, but he couldn't come 0:18:10.560 --> 0:18:11.280 on too strong. 0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:15.000 You can't like get on there and say I've got 0:18:15.040 --> 0:18:17.399 a big laptop and it's ready to go, and guess 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.840 what I want five million and I want it in 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:24.360 an offshore account and here's the number. Right. He's immediately 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.399 going to say, what the right, This is not for real, 0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:31.440 this is something, This is one of those FBI doors, right. 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.280 Right, So they crafted a different kind of message to 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.159 the person from NUAA who had first invited David to 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:40.560 come give a talk, Chen fun. 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:44.560 Teacher, Chen, I plan to go visit my elderly parents 0:18:44.640 --> 0:18:47.640 around the New Year after wrapping up a big project, 0:18:48.119 --> 0:18:51.280 because they aren't in the best health. After all, I 0:18:51.440 --> 0:18:53.760 likely won't have much time to left with him. I 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.160 feel like I need to fulfill my familial applications. You'd 0:18:57.160 --> 0:19:00.200 be great together with old friends by then as well. 0:19:00.400 --> 0:19:03.440 Offering to visit the university during Chinese New Year was 0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:04.359 an empty offer. 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:07.800 Chinese New Year is the single largest mass migration of 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:10.880 people in the world. On an annual basis, everyone goes 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.480 home to their own province or village or farm, et cetera, 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:17.200 wherever they came from, which also means I can guarantee 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:19.199 no one's going to be there for that period of 0:19:19.200 --> 0:19:21.600 time that we say that we're going because guess who's 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:23.320 not going to be in school for Chinese New Year, 0:19:23.760 --> 0:19:26.800 Chen Fung or anyone else at any way, and it 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:28.240 worked your. 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.920 Trip back this time coincides with school holiday, most teachers 0:19:31.920 --> 0:19:35.000 and the students will pretty much be back to their hometowers. 0:19:35.240 --> 0:19:37.479 Bradley was banking on the fact that with the campus 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.639 empty for vacation, chen Fung would pass off the hosting 0:19:40.720 --> 0:19:43.919 duties to someone else, someone who didn't actually have a 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:47.280 university job, and Bradley was hoping it would be the 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.800 important seeming official David had met on his trip, the 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:55.359 man who had introduced himself as Cheu Huai. Bradley suspected 0:19:55.400 --> 0:19:57.400 he was actually an MSS officer. 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:01.080 I discussed the list of Section chief Chu will organizer 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:03.520 ex change this time wand bingo. 0:20:04.240 --> 0:20:08.040 I'll use this analogy. If it quacks and has webbed 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:10.240 feet and you think it's a duck. We had feet 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:11.200 and quacking at that point. 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.639 Even though Bradley suspected Chiu Huey was his guy, he 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:21.040 still didn't have his real name and title. But Bradley 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:24.320 was right about him being MSS. Because of course, Chu 0:20:24.400 --> 0:20:26.919 Huai was actually shoe Yen June. 0:20:28.680 --> 0:20:30.879 I knew what he was without knowing what he was, 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:31.920 if that makes sense. 0:20:32.359 --> 0:20:35.480 But he was about to because shoe Yen June had 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:39.560 made a key mistake before David came to China. Shue 0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:42.040 had sent him an email pretending to be Chen Fun 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.800 and he had sent that email from a Gmail address, 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.960 which meant the FBI could send search warrants to Google's 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:53.399 parent company, Alphabet. Those warrant results revealed that the Gmail 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:56.520 address was linked to an Apple iCloud account, so the 0:20:56.600 --> 0:21:00.399 FBI sent warrants to Apple too, and with those welts, 0:21:00.880 --> 0:21:03.719