1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 2: A quick note, this is the fourth episode of our series. 3 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 2: If you missed the first three, we recommend going back 4 00:00:14,120 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 2: and listening in order. 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:20,400 Speaker 3: Thanks. Who are we here to talk about Shoe and June? 6 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,439 Speaker 4: Jordan and I are in Cincinnati across the table from 7 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,920 Speaker 4: FBI Special Agent Bradley Hall. You've been hearing Bradley talk 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 4: about Shoe over the last couple episodes, but now you're 9 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 4: going to hear from him in a different way. You're 10 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:35,400 Speaker 4: going to hear about his own involvement in this case, 11 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 4: which begins when ge engineered David John comes back from 12 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 4: his trip to China, the trip where he met Shoe 13 00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:42,479 Speaker 4: yen June. 14 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 2: When we sat down with Bradley, we already knew how 15 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 2: David had gotten on shoes radar LinkedIn, but that didn't 16 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 2: explain how David had gotten on the FBI's radar, or, 17 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: for that matter, how Shoe did, and that was something 18 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 2: we really wanted to know. So how does this case 19 00:00:59,520 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: begin for you? 20 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 3: So when you guys flew here, I imagine you had 21 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 3: digital tickets right right If you buy a ticket last minute, 22 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 3: or you buy in cash, or there's a number of 23 00:01:10,120 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 3: different traits. The airlines are required to report that to TSA. 24 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 3: And if you ever get a ticket it has four 25 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 3: s's on it, it means you've hit two or three 26 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:23,440 Speaker 3: of those criteria, which usually means someone's going to give 27 00:01:23,440 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 3: you a secondary search. Well, when the ge engineering returned 28 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 3: to the United States from his trip to China, he 29 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 3: had these codes on his tickets. He was offered a 30 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 3: secondary inspection. 31 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: At which point they found cash on David Jones, a 32 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 2: lot of cash sixteen thousand dollars. 33 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 3: That was not well explained. And that's a starting point 34 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:45,920 Speaker 3: for this case. 35 00:01:47,080 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 4: And so like, did Jang buy his ticket with cash 36 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 4: or a last minute or was there something else that 37 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 4: led to him being secondary? Is there anything we can 38 00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 4: say about that? 39 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 3: I actually don't know the answer that question. 40 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 2: Okay, can we talk any more about the secondary It 41 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 2: seems like even if you had maybe known something before, 42 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 2: is that kind of the first moment we can talk 43 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: about in his case? 44 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 3: I don't know if I get any more detail than that. 45 00:02:15,320 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: Okay, So he was secondary, he did have his cash, right, 46 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: it sounds like this was the moment that kind of 47 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: led to everything else that we then have. Is that 48 00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 2: roughly correct? 49 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:28,120 Speaker 5: Now? 50 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 2: Let's just leave it at that for now, I think, okay. 51 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:37,360 Speaker 2: So Bradley was not going to tell us where this 52 00:02:37,480 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 2: case started, and as much as we tried, we could 53 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: never get anyone to tell us where this case started. 54 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:45,799 Speaker 2: We do know there were a bunch of hacks the 55 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:48,840 Speaker 2: FBI trace to the six Bureau years before, which allowed 56 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:51,480 Speaker 2: them to see some of Shu's colleagues correspondence with each other. 57 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 2: We also know that cases like this one can start 58 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:57,600 Speaker 2: with the NSA flagging some email addressed or text or 59 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: geotag or really any sort of digital foot we're leaving 60 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 2: behind all the time, and so we think it's likely 61 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 2: that at least one of Shoe's email addresses was flagged 62 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 2: before he started talking with David John. So when he did, 63 00:03:09,480 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 2: the FBI noticed, got David secondary at the airport and 64 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: found the cash. 65 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:16,919 Speaker 4: And when the lead about Shoe and David came in, 66 00:03:17,480 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 4: it landed on Bradley Hall's desk because David John worked 67 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 4: at thee Aviation, which was headquartered in Cincinnati, and Bradley 68 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:28,840 Speaker 4: was the FBI's only counterintelligence agent there. 69 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 3: We are spy hunters. We spy on the spies, We 70 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 3: track the people whose job it is to not be recognized, 71 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 3: to not be identified, to blend in. A drug dealer 72 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: sells drugs, right, that's ipso facto illegal. It's very black 73 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: and white. Counter Intelligence exists in the gray. These are 74 00:03:47,360 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 3: people who are trained to blend in, who are trained 75 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 3: to do things that look normal. So to find that 76 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: piece of illegality is very, very difficult. 77 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 4: Bradley is an intense guy. I mean we talked to 78 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,640 Speaker 4: him for almost six hours. We ate lunch, he didn't. 79 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 4: We drank coffee, he didn't. We sipped from our bottles 80 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:09,120 Speaker 4: of water. He basically didn't. 81 00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 3: Let's take some morner, no finder. 82 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 4: He's worked counterintelligence for his entire FBI career, and he 83 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:17,840 Speaker 4: chose it because someone told him it was the most 84 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 4: challenging thing the Bureau does. 85 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 3: If you have a fifteen a saxa in front of 86 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 3: you saying the hardest thing that we do is kindter intelligence. 87 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 3: That peaked my interest. 88 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 4: But spy hunting isn't always as badass as it sounds. 89 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 4: For instance, the first thing Bradley had to do after 90 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,240 Speaker 4: getting this lead was go to David Jones' employer and 91 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 4: ask for their help. 92 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 3: We went to Ge and said, you know, we have 93 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 3: a concern. We by no means have a full picture, 94 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,520 Speaker 3: but we would like you to work with us. 95 00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:48,799 Speaker 6: The bureau came in and said, you guys have a problem. 96 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: This is Art Cummings, who at the time was chief 97 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: security officer for all of GE's businesses. 98 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 6: This is your problem. 99 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 2: But this is the opportunity, the opportunity to work together. 100 00:04:59,240 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 6: To potentially expose this intelligence officer whose job is to 101 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 6: steal IP from American companies. That's just a beautiful operation. 102 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:11,679 Speaker 2: Beautiful for the FBI, but not necessarily for GE. 103 00:05:12,240 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 3: A lot of companies. I would have said, thank you 104 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 3: very much, what's the person's name, fired them, and walked 105 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 3: away from it. 106 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: Because the proposal raised serious risks. Helping an investigation that 107 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 2: might lead to a trial would only draw attention to 108 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:27,680 Speaker 2: the fact that GE had had a security breach, which 109 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 2: is a bad look when one of the major buyers 110 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,680 Speaker 2: of your jet engines is the US military. 111 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:35,919 Speaker 6: From like, guyser, are you prepared to expose this to 112 00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,520 Speaker 6: DoD that you have billions of dollars of business with 113 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 6: That shows that you were sloppy with their IP or 114 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 6: with your IP buddy. That is a bad message all 115 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:47,719 Speaker 6: the way across the board. 116 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 2: Plus, GE does a lot of business in China. Working 117 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 2: with the FBI on a case that accused China of 118 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 2: stealing trade secrets could jeopardize that business, but not working 119 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:03,240 Speaker 2: with the FBI with its own risks. The fact that 120 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 2: the MSS was targeting David John meant they were after 121 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 2: some of GE's most sensitive information. 122 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 3: He was one of about ten to twelve engineers who 123 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 3: are specifically on carbon fan blades and carbon fan blaid 124 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: encasements on the GE engine system series. 125 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 2: That's a very small group of people working on a 126 00:06:23,360 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 2: very important technology. 127 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 3: Yes, G is the only company in the world has 128 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 3: ever commercialized this technique. Many have tried and failed, but 129 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 3: GE is the only one. They're the crown jewel of 130 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 3: jet engines. 131 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 6: I'd say the loss of their most advanced commercial jet 132 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 6: engine is a billion dollars. 133 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 3: If they lost it, and. 134 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 6: There's future revenue, and there's just that generation. The next 135 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 6: generation jet engine builds on that one, and then the 136 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 6: next one on that one, and then the next one 137 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 6: on that one. That's real? 138 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,880 Speaker 2: Is that GE anymore? We tried repeatedly to talk to 139 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:05,599 Speaker 2: the company for the story, but they declined to comment 140 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 2: each time. 141 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 4: Ultimately, GE did decide to cooperate with the FBI. 142 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 3: There were enough people, particularly in the C suite, who 143 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 3: were who were open to the idea of okay, let's 144 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 3: work with the FBI and see what we can do 145 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 3: to protect ourselves. 146 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 4: So Ge was in, but Bradley still had to convince 147 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 4: one more person to get on board. 148 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 3: David juhn oh I wanted to turn him to use 149 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: him to operate against the namassas. 150 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 4: Bradley wanted to make David his double. 151 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: The double is someone who represents himself for herself as 152 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:43,240 Speaker 1: cooperating with the Foreign Intelligence Service, but actually under the 153 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 1: control of our service, and it is a very delicate 154 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:55,920 Speaker 1: kind of operation because you have to persuade professional counterintelligence 155 00:07:55,960 --> 00:07:58,560 Speaker 1: people on the other side that this is legitimate. 156 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 4: The double agent David would help the FBI try to 157 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 4: learn the details of who this MSS officer actually was 158 00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 4: and maybe even help catch him, and it was a 159 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 4: good moment to try. In twenty seventeen, Donald Trump had 160 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 4: just taken office for the first time and his administration 161 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 4: was gung ho about going after China, so there was 162 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 4: support at the highest levels of government for nabbing an 163 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 4: MSS officer, but actually pulling it off would be a 164 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 4: real hail Mary because it had literally never happened before. 165 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 3: There was a lot of do you really think this 166 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 3: is going to work? And your response was positive, is 167 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: going to work? 168 00:08:39,160 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: From Bloomberg News and iHeart podcasts, this is the Sixth Bureau. 169 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 7: I'm Jordan Robertson and I'm Drake Bennett. 170 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 2: On November first, twenty seventeen, David John started his day 171 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: like any other day. Cup He drove to work and 172 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: then a few hours later he was called into a 173 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: meeting by GE Corporate Security. 174 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 7: The engineer doesn't know exactly how much hot water he's in. 175 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 2: This is Mike Regal, an agent who has pulled into 176 00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:14,720 Speaker 2: work with Bradley on the case. 177 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 7: He had like an interaction with you know, GE security 178 00:09:19,640 --> 00:09:23,360 Speaker 7: people that was more like a general type discussion, kind 179 00:09:23,360 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 7: of an opener. 180 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 2: GE Security asked David about some unusual activity they'd noticed, 181 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 2: specifically the five sensitive files he'd transferred onto his personal 182 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 2: computer before going to China. 183 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 3: They literally walk out, they say someone else wants to 184 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 3: speak to. 185 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 7: You, and then we come in. I'm sure his stress 186 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 7: level went one hundredfold because obviously the guy's kind of 187 00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 7: in shock. It comes for like kind of like a 188 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 7: meeting with security guys and two FBI people come walking in. 189 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 3: It was a room meant for sixty seventy people and 190 00:09:57,000 --> 00:09:59,440 Speaker 3: were sat at one tiny little corner of a table. 191 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: We indicate that we are there for the same reason 192 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 3: the G was there. These files were moved. We've learned 193 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: from G that they went to China. That's a concern 194 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 3: for us. Let's talk about it. And that's how the 195 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 3: conversation starts. 196 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 7: You know, you could have somebody that just unburdens himself 197 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 7: and says, I know what you guys are here about. 198 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 3: He didn't do that. 199 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 7: No. 200 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 4: They start by asking David about his trip to China, 201 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 4: why he went, what he did, who he saw. 202 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 7: You have to kind of eat this steak and small bites. 203 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 4: David gives them a partial story. 204 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 3: He went to a wedding, he went to a class reunion, 205 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 3: he visited family back in the provinces, and then he 206 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 3: flew home. 207 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 4: He leaves out one thing his talk in Nanjing at 208 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 4: the university. So Bradley and Mike remind him. 209 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 3: We started talking about the fact that he had done 210 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 3: a presentation without talking to G. 211 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 7: His brain is thinking, let me think of a way 212 00:10:57,840 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 7: to get out of this. Can I think of a 213 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 7: way to get out this? Okay, let me give let 214 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:04,320 Speaker 7: me give a different version of that. I gave it talk, 215 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 7: but it's not on important stuff. 216 00:11:08,320 --> 00:11:11,319 Speaker 4: But Bradley and Mike already know exactly what GE files 217 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 4: David took with him to China. 218 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:16,240 Speaker 3: Here's the file that you downloaded on March the twenty seventh, 219 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 3: and here's the image that has GE proprietary on it 220 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 3: that you cropped out when you put in your PowerPoint. Oops. 221 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 7: They know about that. They've got that power point. 222 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 3: There was a lot of I forgot to mentions. 223 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:31,440 Speaker 4: Then they ask him about all the cash he came 224 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,520 Speaker 4: back with. He lies about the amount and says it 225 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 4: was repayment for a loan. 226 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 3: I call it progressive truth telling. I let them tell 227 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 3: the lie, and then I go back and I encounter 228 00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 3: it point by point. I had the bank records that 229 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 3: showed where he'd put the sixteen thousand dollars the cash. 230 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 3: I'm gonna show you ten ways past Sunday that I 231 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 3: know what day you put the money in, which account 232 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 3: of went is like, don't, don't, don't play right, just 233 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 3: I know. 234 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 7: So he's changing over time to the point where he 235 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 7: emotionally just can't do it anymore. 236 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:08,360 Speaker 3: Like you could watch the realization wash over him that oh, 237 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 3: this is more than just I downlois some files I 238 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 3: shouldn't have. This is now something else. 239 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 2: The questions keep coming and there doesn't seem to be 240 00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,320 Speaker 2: any escape. When David gets hungry, Bradley and Mike eat 241 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 2: with him. When he has to go to the bathroom, 242 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:27,199 Speaker 2: they go with him. The walls were closing in. 243 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 7: It's a voluntary interview, and he needs to know during 244 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,079 Speaker 7: a voluntary interview that it's very important that he can leave. 245 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 7: It wasn't there, It wasn't his car being towed, and like. 246 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 2: He couldn't drive away. 247 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 7: Well, so there's being free to leave and having some 248 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 7: logistical issues are two different things, right. 249 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 2: The logistical issues Mike is referring to look something like this. 250 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 2: While the FBI is talking to David, his phone is confiscated, 251 00:12:58,840 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: his car sees from the ge parking lot, and his 252 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,400 Speaker 2: house is searched. Bradley hands him a phone so he 253 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 2: can call his wife. They tell him to put her 254 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,319 Speaker 2: on speaker and to speak in English. David tells her 255 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: not to go home. 256 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 3: Because the FBI had just kicked in their back door. 257 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 2: It's a short call. He hangs up, and the questioning continues. 258 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 7: So this goes on for a long time, to the 259 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 7: point that he he kind of I remember him breaking down. 260 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 3: There's like a slumping of the shoulders. There's you know, 261 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 3: an audible exhale where they go from that person who 262 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 3: thinks they're walking out of the room that day to 263 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,880 Speaker 3: somebody realized that their life is fundamentally changed. We go 264 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 3: from you know, the proper engineer who sits up with 265 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 3: his hands on the table. We start getting to lean 266 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:46,840 Speaker 3: back for the lies, and then by the end, you know, 267 00:13:46,880 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: he's slumped down in the chair right before he actually 268 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: you know, starts to starts to tear up, like he 269 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 3: started crying. 270 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 2: And finally telling the whole story. 271 00:13:58,120 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 3: He gives us as much as he could remember. 272 00:14:00,280 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: David acknowledges that he knew something was fishy about the 273 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 2: cash he was handed. 274 00:14:04,440 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 3: After his talk, he eventually called it dark money. That 275 00:14:07,320 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 3: he had known he had received dark money from someone 276 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 3: in China, so deep down, maybe not as he was 277 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,000 Speaker 3: initially given the presentation, but after the fact that realization 278 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 3: was there that he knew that it was dark money, 279 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: he maybe not have known it was the MSS specifically, 280 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 3: but at this point you'd be hard pressed to be 281 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 3: ignorant to that type of thing happening. 282 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 4: And yet Bradley and Mike couldn't help but empathize a 283 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,360 Speaker 4: little why being invited to share his expertise at this 284 00:14:35,480 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 4: prestigious university in the country where he grew up was 285 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 4: so appealing to David. 286 00:14:40,840 --> 00:14:44,600 Speaker 3: He came from a very rural village. He literally was 287 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: the son of a big farmer, like he grew up 288 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 3: on dirt floors. He was the first person not only 289 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 3: in his family but from his village to go to college. 290 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 3: He was one of about ten to twelve engineers who 291 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 3: worked specifically on carbon fan blades and carbon fan blaid encasements. 292 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: This was a chance for him to brack about it. 293 00:15:02,280 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: I know the secret sauce I'm one of very few 294 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 3: people can do it. So there was an ego part to. 295 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:11,120 Speaker 7: It, right, and I understand that. I understand that motivation 296 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 7: that this guy basically is like, I'm proud of my work. 297 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 7: I like what I do, I'm excited about this. The 298 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:22,480 Speaker 7: MSS preyed on people that want to talk about what 299 00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 7: they do because they're proud of it. They're excited about it. 300 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 7: They find it interesting. It's like, hey, we really like 301 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 7: to hear about this. This sounds like great stuff. Would 302 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 7: you like to come give a talk about this? Is 303 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 7: that ego? Yes, I guess it kind of is, but 304 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 7: it's human. Yeah. 305 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 4: David was suspended without pay and eventually let go, But 306 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 4: unemployment wasn't the worst thing he was facing. He could 307 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 4: see possible prison time for violating expert control laws and 308 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 4: for lying to federal agents. Or he could cooperate. 309 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 3: You say, okay, there is a path forward, and you 310 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 3: start to talk very gently about what that path can 311 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 3: look like and that, hopefully at the end, will improve 312 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,000 Speaker 3: their position vice where it is right now, which is 313 00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 3: pretty bad. We couched it like this. You did wrong. 314 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 3: You know you did wrong. You lied to me, you 315 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 3: kept lying to me. You finally told me the truth, 316 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: but you just set off to do this. They came 317 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,479 Speaker 3: to you, So how about we go get them. 318 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 4: They told them to sleep on it. It had been 319 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 4: a long day, a really long day. 320 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 7: I was exhausted, you know. The interview was ours. I 321 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:43,600 Speaker 7: can't remember the exact number for some reason. Seven sticks 322 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 7: in my brain, but it's hours long. 323 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 3: Seven hours and forty two minutes. 324 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 4: When it was done, Bradley and Mike drove David home 325 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 4: because he had no car or phone. 326 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 2: What was that ride like? 327 00:16:57,720 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: Quiet? 328 00:17:02,880 --> 00:17:05,520 Speaker 2: You're hearing only from Bradley and Mike here, because, as 329 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 2: we said in the last episode, we tried really hard 330 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 2: to talk to David John, but he wouldn't talk to us. 331 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:12,639 Speaker 2: We didn't get to hear from him directly what that 332 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: day and night was like for him and how he 333 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 2: went about weighing his options. 334 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 4: Agreeing to be a double would be a huge risk 335 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,920 Speaker 4: for David. He'd be going up against the powerful intelligence 336 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 4: apparatus of China, the country where he was born and 337 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 4: raised and still had family. He had good reason to 338 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 4: say no, but it was that or those potential charges 339 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 4: and prison time, so he agreed to cooperate. The next day, 340 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 4: he got a lawyer and signed a non prosecution agreement 341 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 4: saying that no charges would be brought against him in 342 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: return for working with the FBI. It was time to 343 00:17:50,880 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 4: go spy hunting. With David on board, the FBI made 344 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 4: their first move under Bradley's direction. David got back in 345 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 4: touch with his contacts in Nanjing, but he couldn't come 346 00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:11,280 Speaker 4: on too strong. 347 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 7: You can't like get on there and say I've got 348 00:18:15,040 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 7: a big laptop and it's ready to go, and guess 349 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 7: what I want five million and I want it in 350 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 7: an offshore account and here's the number. Right. He's immediately 351 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 7: going to say, what the right, This is not for real, 352 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 7: this is something, This is one of those FBI doors, right. 353 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 4: Right, So they crafted a different kind of message to 354 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 4: the person from NUAA who had first invited David to 355 00:18:38,160 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 4: come give a talk, Chen fun. 356 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 8: Teacher, Chen, I plan to go visit my elderly parents 357 00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 8: around the New Year after wrapping up a big project, 358 00:18:48,119 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 8: because they aren't in the best health. After all, I 359 00:18:51,440 --> 00:18:53,760 Speaker 8: likely won't have much time to left with him. I 360 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:57,160 Speaker 8: feel like I need to fulfill my familial applications. You'd 361 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:00,200 Speaker 8: be great together with old friends by then as well. 362 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,440 Speaker 4: Offering to visit the university during Chinese New Year was 363 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 4: an empty offer. 364 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 3: Chinese New Year is the single largest mass migration of 365 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 3: people in the world. On an annual basis, everyone goes 366 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 3: home to their own province or village or farm, et cetera, 367 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 3: wherever they came from, which also means I can guarantee 368 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 3: no one's going to be there for that period of 369 00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 3: time that we say that we're going because guess who's 370 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 3: not going to be in school for Chinese New Year, 371 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 3: Chen Fung or anyone else at any way, and it 372 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 3: worked your. 373 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,920 Speaker 8: Trip back this time coincides with school holiday, most teachers 374 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:35,000 Speaker 8: and the students will pretty much be back to their hometowers. 375 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,479 Speaker 4: Bradley was banking on the fact that with the campus 376 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 4: empty for vacation, chen Fung would pass off the hosting 377 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:43,919 Speaker 4: duties to someone else, someone who didn't actually have a 378 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 4: university job, and Bradley was hoping it would be the 379 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 4: important seeming official David had met on his trip, the 380 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,359 Speaker 4: man who had introduced himself as Cheu Huai. Bradley suspected 381 00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,400 Speaker 4: he was actually an MSS officer. 382 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 9: I discussed the list of Section chief Chu will organizer 383 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 9: ex change this time wand bingo. 384 00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 3: I'll use this analogy. If it quacks and has webbed 385 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 3: feet and you think it's a duck. We had feet 386 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 3: and quacking at that point. 387 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 4: Even though Bradley suspected Chiu Huey was his guy, he 388 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 4: still didn't have his real name and title. But Bradley 389 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 4: was right about him being MSS. Because of course, Chu 390 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 4: Huai was actually shoe Yen June. 391 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:30,879 Speaker 3: I knew what he was without knowing what he was, 392 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 3: if that makes sense. 393 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 4: But he was about to because shoe Yen June had 394 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:39,560 Speaker 4: made a key mistake before David came to China. Shue 395 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 4: had sent him an email pretending to be Chen Fun 396 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 4: and he had sent that email from a Gmail address, 397 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 4: which meant the FBI could send search warrants to Google's 398 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,399 Speaker 4: parent company, Alphabet. Those warrant results revealed that the Gmail 399 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 4: address was linked to an Apple iCloud account, so the 400 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 4: FBI sent warrants to Apple too, and with those welts, 401 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:03,719 Speaker 4: Bradley came into some feathers and a bill in the 402 00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 4: form of one boring looking government document. 403 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 3: I first thought, I wasn't sure what it was cosey 404 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 3: as a Mandarin, but I saw a face in a 405 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,439 Speaker 3: military uniform, which makes it government. So we had a 406 00:21:15,560 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 3: linguist he translated it. He called me back kind of 407 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 3: a note of a flutter. Do you know what this is? 408 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 3: I said, well, I don't know what it is. I'm 409 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 3: going to guess. He says, it's better than what you're 410 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 3: going to guess. It's the MSS officer's life from when 411 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 3: he started college to when he joined the Communist Party, 412 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 3: to when he joined the Ministry for Safe Security, and 413 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: then every major progression in his career after that fact. 414 00:21:40,880 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 4: It was an mss cadre form or basically shoe Yen 415 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 4: June's resume. 416 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 3: So I started sending communications back dev head Course saying 417 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 3: known intelligence officer, and I got a little bit of 418 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 3: a snarky call from a fairly high level analytical person 419 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 3: at head Course saying, well, why are you calling this 420 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:02,360 Speaker 3: individual known into Like that's the highest level we can get. 421 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 3: We are positive this person's intelligence saucer because I had 422 00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 3: his spy CV in front of me, and when I 423 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 3: said that to them, there's like a pause on the 424 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: call and then went you have what And it's not 425 00:22:16,320 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 3: that it was confusion, like we know these things must exist, right, 426 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 3: just the first time we'd ever seen it. That was 427 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 3: the thing that took a case that was going fast 428 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 3: and made it go light speak and why I have 429 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 3: be able to prove he's an intelligence saucer. This was 430 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 3: definitive proof. Again, apologies for the duck reference. We know 431 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 3: it's a duck. 432 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,679 Speaker 2: Let's just take a moment here to reflect on the 433 00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 2: sloppiness of a Chinese spy relying on American tech companies 434 00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 2: Apple Google to conduct his top secret work. I mean, 435 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 2: it's pretty wild. 436 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 3: We can throw shade at that as well, right, Okay, 437 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 3: he was using the most popular cell phone in the 438 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:01,879 Speaker 3: world at the time. Shocking. Did he read the forty 439 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,879 Speaker 3: five thousand pages that you have to sign on we 440 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,760 Speaker 3: get an alp A product? He didn't because he would have. 441 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,120 Speaker 3: I mean, if you'd have read, you know, paragraph forty five, 442 00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 3: subsection four hundred and twenty two, maybe he would have 443 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:11,600 Speaker 3: realized that. 444 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:16,479 Speaker 2: Right, and Shoe left all sorts of digital breadcrumbs. When 445 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,160 Speaker 2: you use your iPhone to take a photo, it captures 446 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:22,680 Speaker 2: GPS data, so the FBI was able to determine Shoe's 447 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 2: exact location at the moment he snapped the photo of 448 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 2: his cadre form that ended up in his iCloud account. 449 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 2: He was in Nanjing, in the regional headquarters of the MSS, 450 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:36,919 Speaker 2: so not the best tradecraft. 451 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 3: I now have several terabytes of an MSS officer, no doubt, 452 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 3: no question of his life. And that's a unicorn. 453 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 2: The warrant results kept coming back. There were emails and 454 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:55,360 Speaker 2: other sensitive documents, and there was the diary that portals 455 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 2: to Shoe's life and habits and feelings. 456 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 10: Cards lost the seven hundred and ten to twenty New 457 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:06,080 Speaker 10: Peach Shoe twenty second through to Paris. I lost so 458 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 10: much in the Stamach John undermind me having a leader 459 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,000 Speaker 10: like this, what's the point? 460 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: And that was something Bradley could use. He began to 461 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,479 Speaker 2: build a sort of psychological profile of who Shoe was 462 00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 2: and what he would respond to, and that became a 463 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,159 Speaker 2: guide for how David communicated with Shoe and how they 464 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 2: tried to get him to do what they wanted. 465 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:31,480 Speaker 3: I now knew where all his little buttons were. When 466 00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 3: you're trying very slowly to craft a message that looks 467 00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 3: and appears and feels real to them, to know that 468 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,520 Speaker 3: level of detail about their life and their mindset, it 469 00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 3: allows you to tweak what you put in the message 470 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 3: on a daily basis so that we could keep him 471 00:24:46,880 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 3: talking to our cooperator and keep the case moving forward, 472 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,080 Speaker 3: so that we could get to the ultimate end goal. 473 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: Because Bradley wasn't just trying to talk to Shoe for 474 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,879 Speaker 2: his plan to work. Bradley needed to convince you to 475 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 2: do things things he wouldn't normally do. Like, let David 476 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: choose where they would meet next, which wasn't going to 477 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:04,920 Speaker 2: beat anging. 478 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 7: Obviously, we're not going to allow the engineer to go 479 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:12,080 Speaker 7: back to China. Okay, that's you know, non starter, right, 480 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:19,480 Speaker 7: and why not because China is territory that we cannot control. Obviously, 481 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 7: you know you couldn't go with him, and we're not 482 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:24,400 Speaker 7: certainly not going to allow him to go by himself. 483 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 2: So while David and she were messaging back and forth, 484 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,120 Speaker 2: she was still under the impression that David is coming 485 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,919 Speaker 2: back to China for Chinese New Year, like he had said. 486 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 2: But he's not going to China for all the reasons 487 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 2: Mike just said. So they had to break the news 488 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 2: that if they were going to meet, it would have 489 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:41,640 Speaker 2: to be somewhere else. 490 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 4: But Bradley knew that was potentially a deal breaker. She 491 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,520 Speaker 4: would be disappointed and might just walk away, so they 492 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 4: had to be strategic about it. Because of the diary, 493 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 4: Bradley knew all about Shoe's work, resentments and the way 494 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:58,120 Speaker 4: he felt about his own superiors. 495 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 10: Munch twenty sevens John rejected, you received today such an 496 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 10: ungrateful person, has no shame. I don't will have my 497 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 10: advantage so. 498 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 8: They used that Hello Session chief, who unfortunately news to 499 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:16,200 Speaker 8: tell you, I can't go by for the new year. 500 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,360 Speaker 8: The Broughs today requested material for my work trip. 501 00:26:19,160 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 3: To friends the big bad Boss. 502 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 8: There are lots to be done, and he thinks he's 503 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,120 Speaker 8: inappropriate for a two weeks location right now. I'm very 504 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 8: sorry about this. 505 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,200 Speaker 3: I can't go to China now because my boss says 506 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 3: I have to go work on this specific. 507 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 4: Project in France. Bradley was hoping that blaming this works 508 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,159 Speaker 4: trip on the boss was something she would understand and 509 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 4: sympathize with, but he knew that wasn't enough on its own. 510 00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 4: He had taken something away David's trip to China, so 511 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 4: now he had to give something in return, something to 512 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 4: keep she in the game. 513 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 8: I'm very sorry that I can come back to China 514 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,640 Speaker 8: for the new year and meet with you guys. I'll 515 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 8: email you a directory of documents from a company computer 516 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,680 Speaker 8: per your previous instruction, please check. 517 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 4: A directory is basically a list of all the files 518 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 4: on your computer. 519 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 3: And if you don't know any engineers, you've never worked 520 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 3: with an engineer, they name them very specifically, and a 521 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 3: lot of details contained within the titles of those files. 522 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:25,879 Speaker 3: It's because there's so many files and each is so 523 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 3: specific to a piece of technology they're working on, et cetera, 524 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 3: that you can glean a lot of information from. 525 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 2: Your point of view. How big of a deal was 526 00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 2: a directory? 527 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:35,199 Speaker 3: What's huge? 528 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 4: Ge gave Bradley a directory but altered it to remove 529 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,480 Speaker 4: anything proprietary. David sent it to she and it worked. 530 00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,160 Speaker 3: I'm sure he has saying his pauses, it's working, it's working. 531 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 3: He sent me this file. He created this directory for me. 532 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 3: Almost no one ever does that. 533 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:53,120 Speaker 5: Right. 534 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 3: It's good. His gold is gold. We've got to work 535 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 3: it hard. 536 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 4: He starts peppering David with questions about his upcoming work trip. 537 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,040 Speaker 9: How long were you being as in March? Do you 538 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 9: have plans to visit any other countries? I'm planning this 539 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 9: year's foreign trouble and will love to see you overseas 540 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 9: if it's convenient. The US isn't in my plan, so 541 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 9: I like to see you in other countries. 542 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 7: We would love for Ju to basically say I'll come 543 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 7: to Cincinnati, Ohio. Sounds like a great town, right. He 544 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 7: is not going to do that, So we have to 545 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 7: find something that's intermediate, that's risky. But not as big 546 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 7: a risk, right. 547 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 2: David and Shoes start discussing European cities in France and elsewhere, 548 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 2: But as Shoe gets closer to leaving China for the meeting, 549 00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,120 Speaker 2: he seems to need more reassurance about his source. We 550 00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 2: chats aren't enough anymore. He wants to hear David's voice. 551 00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: He calls him, but David's not with Bradley and Mike. 552 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 2: He's home with his family, so David doesn't answer. 553 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 8: Hello, Session A Chief two. 554 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 3: Sorry I meets your call. 555 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 8: I was trying to put my child to sleep, just 556 00:28:59,000 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 8: got free. 557 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 2: Shoe responds, Do you have. 558 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 9: A minute let's talk on the phone. 559 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 8: How about another day? My family is sleeping. 560 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 9: Shoe presses him, well, how about tomorrow. There's something I 561 00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 9: like to check in with you about if we meet 562 00:29:12,840 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 9: in friends. 563 00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 2: The next morning, David messages Shoe that he can talk 564 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: at eleven am. He meets up with Bradley and Mike. 565 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 2: They decide to do the call from Bradley's car in 566 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 2: the FBI parking lot, but David pretends he's in his 567 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 2: car in the GE parking lot on his lunch break. 568 00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 11: This is Special Agent Regal Special Agent Bradley Hall. The 569 00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 11: date is February twenty eight. 570 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,200 Speaker 2: This call is a tricky thing for the FBI agents 571 00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 2: to pull off. 572 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 11: About to start consensual telephone call, they. 573 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,280 Speaker 2: Need to choreograph it in real time without tipping Shoe 574 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: off that they're there. So Bradley gives David specific instructions. 575 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,200 Speaker 3: So I've just said here, here's what we're going to do. 576 00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 3: I'm going to give you a pad of paper. I 577 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 3: need you to write down as fast as you can 578 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 3: what he's saying over here. I'm gonna point to what 579 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 3: you say and we're gonna go as quick as we can. 580 00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 3: If it's something important, you need to give me a 581 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,560 Speaker 3: signal so that I know, because we need to keep 582 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 3: this in natural flow. I said, it needs me natural. 583 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 2: As you listen, you wouldn't know all of this is 584 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 2: going on in the background. David sounds so normal. At 585 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 2: no point does he let on that he's doing all 586 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 2: this writing and signaling and adapting on the fly. It's 587 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:36,880 Speaker 2: really impressive. 588 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 8: Oh, I do want to visit Belgium, Netherlands, in Germany. 589 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 8: I would like to go check it out. 590 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 2: David suggests a few countries in Europe where he and 591 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 2: Sho could meet places he says he's always wanted to visit. 592 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 8: If it works well for you, I can tell my 593 00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,040 Speaker 8: colleage I'm visiting those places for fun, I assume, and 594 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,800 Speaker 8: they won't come along. I think those places may be 595 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 8: more convenient. 596 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,240 Speaker 9: So so you're saying it's better to meet in Belgium, 597 00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 9: Netherlands or Germany, Right right, right, that looks too all right, 598 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 9: Let's try our best to meet in Europe. 599 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 3: Good good. 600 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,600 Speaker 9: If I need to communicate any details to you, I 601 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 9: will send them to you through witchat. 602 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 8: Okay, good night, Okay, goodbye, good night, goodbye, good night. 603 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 8: Faction ship too. 604 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 4: Sue has agreed to leave his home turf and meet 605 00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:36,440 Speaker 4: David in Europe, somewhere in Europe. He believes that David 606 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 4: is just a willing source to ge, ready to hand 607 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 4: over whatever he needs, and so she is willing to 608 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 4: do whatever he needs to to get the goods in 609 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 4: this moment. That means he's willing to travel. This is 610 00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 4: a big win for the FBI. 611 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,840 Speaker 7: That's a huge step. That's like, that's definitely kind of like, yeah, 612 00:31:56,920 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 7: this is a this is amazing and. 613 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: I could just feel shees excitement. 614 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:06,000 Speaker 4: Here's James Olsen former chief of counterintelligence at the CIA. 615 00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,959 Speaker 1: This is going to be the recruitment that is going 616 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: to set him aside from all of his peers. 617 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 3: This is big. 618 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 1: This is a very big thing. 619 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 4: There's this kind of dynamic where the MSS senior management 620 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 4: is following us very closely, the FBI senior management is 621 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 4: following us very closely. Like when this meeting is taking 622 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 4: shape that there would have been an enormous amount of 623 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 4: excitement in both places. 624 00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: Absolutely about the potential. 625 00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 5: Absolutely, they both are very close to a major intelligence coup. 626 00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 5: You're going head to head with the very smart people 627 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,840 Speaker 5: on both ends, and each side has to be smarter 628 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 5: than the other. I could just see the jubilation with 629 00:32:48,240 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 5: the FBI that he's coming our way. 630 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 4: In the next episode. 631 00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 7: It's not just like a couple of dudes in suits. 632 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:07,840 Speaker 7: I mean, these are some legit looking like Seal Team 633 00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 7: six looking type dudes. 634 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:11,880 Speaker 3: So I'm bringing into a fatal funnel, into a fatal funnel, 635 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 3: into a fatal funnel. 636 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 2: This whole investigation seemed like it was out of a movie. 637 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 2: Of course, you know there was going to be an 638 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 2: escape plan. 639 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,200 Speaker 1: He's serving his country, I serve my country. He's a spy. 640 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 7: I was a spy. 641 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: He lived under cover. 642 00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 7: I lived under cover. 643 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:29,280 Speaker 1: He's doing what he's. 644 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 7: Believing is right. I did what I believe was right. 645 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 1: How are we any different?