WEBVTT - What is Betrayal Blindness? With Dr. Jennifer Freyd 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:04.440 How did I not see it? It's the haunting question 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:09.800 all abused survivors have asked themselves. On this episode of 0:00:09.920 --> 0:00:15.520 Navigating Narcissism, I've invited the world's leading expert on betrayal, 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.400 who has dedicated her life to finding the answer to 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:23.560 this tormenting question. I can't remember the last time I 0:00:23.680 --> 0:00:28.240 was this excited to talk to someone. After decades of research, 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:34.360 doctor Jennifer Fried has coined the term betrayal blindness to 0:00:34.479 --> 0:00:41.519 describe our inability to recognize betrayal, especially when the perpetrator 0:00:41.600 --> 0:00:47.280 is someone or something we trust, for example, a parent 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:51.680 who abuses a child, or a partner that cheats, or 0:00:51.720 --> 0:00:56.160 a church that hides abuse. If you've been listening to 0:00:56.280 --> 0:01:00.400 Navigating Narcissism for a while, you've heard me talk about 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.959 doctor Fried time and again. Her work is key to 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:10.440 understanding what happens to survivors of narcissistic abuse. It is 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:15.000 my honor to speak with the legendary doctor Jennifer Fried. 0:01:16.240 --> 0:01:19.480 This podcast should not be used as a substitute for 0:01:19.680 --> 0:01:25.120 medical or mental health advice. Individuals are advised to seek 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:31.479 independent medical advice, counseling, and or therapy from a healthcare 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:36.800 professional with respect to any medical condition, mental health issue, 0:01:37.160 --> 0:01:43.280 or health inquiry, including matters discussed on this podcast. This 0:01:43.400 --> 0:01:48.160 episode discusses abuse, which may be triggering to some people. 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.680 The views and opinions expressed are solely those of the 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:58.280 podcast author or individuals participating in the podcast, and do 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:03.040 not represent the opinions of Red Table Talk productions, iHeartMedia, 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:09.880 or their employees. So, first of all, doctor Jennifer Fried, Welcome. 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:12.919 Every so often we have a guest where again I'm 0:02:12.960 --> 0:02:15.640 a bit starstruck, and this is one of those days. 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:18.560 I've been reading your work throughout my career and it's 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:23.160 actually been really influential in shaping my work in the 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.760 area of narcissistic abuse. So not only am I so 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.680 happy you're here, I'm so deeply honored, in a little 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.200 bit awestruck. So welcome and thank you. 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:33.840 Well, I'm delighted to be here. 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:36.320 Thank you, doctor Fried. And I want to talk about 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:40.480 what is betrayal? Everyone uses the word, but you have 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:42.960 a really, really great comprehensive definition. 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:48.600 What is it Betrayal is when somebody that you depend upon, 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.960 you're close to, your trust, doesn't have your back in 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:57.440 an important situation and in some way harms you. So 0:02:58.120 --> 0:03:01.920 it can be what we might call on every day betrayal, 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.600 like somebody tells a secret that you ask them to hold, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.920 or it can be a traumatic betrayal what I call 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:12.120 betrayal trauma when the thing that's being done to you 0:03:12.400 --> 0:03:17.600 is deeply harmful, such as marital rape or child abuse 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:21.680 by a caregiver, and in those cases, the very person 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.919 that you have a reason to trust and depend upon 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:28.440 is the perpetrator of a harm. 0:03:28.639 --> 0:03:31.840 One thing that struck me about betrayal is that most 0:03:31.960 --> 0:03:38.800 people think of betrayal as lying, cheating, or stealing. That's it. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:45.560 Your work has broadened this definition into this idea of 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:49.440 really being harmed by someone that you presumed yourself to 0:03:49.480 --> 0:03:51.840 be in a trusting relationship with. 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:56.120 Yes, the betrayal trauma theory is a theory that I originally 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.120 actually started to work on to make sense of one 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:03.840 particular kind of betrayal blindness, and that in the devising 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:07.560 this theory, I began to start to measure betrayal trauma 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.080 and found that betrayal traumas, which are defined as significant 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:16.680 mistreatment by somebody that the victim is dependent upon trusts 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:19.960 and is close to that, they are very toxic that 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:24.200 they have negative effects on almost every system we looked at, 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:30.760 so people's mental health, physical health, substance misuse, behavioral problems. 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:32.360 It's very toxic stuff. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:39.000 In order to better understand betrayal trauma, doctor Fried developed 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:44.600 which she calls the Brief Betrayal Trauma Survey. This twelve 0:04:44.760 --> 0:04:49.760 question form can help someone recognize the amount of betrayal 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:55.480 trauma they've encountered based on their personal experiences. This survey 0:04:55.680 --> 0:04:59.680 is available in the show notes and on our Instagram 0:04:59.720 --> 0:05:02.960 page at Navigating Narcissism Pod. 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:07.600 It's very relational, and you know what we've learned over 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:11.680 time is it's relational even if the entity harming you 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:14.440 is bigger than a person, such as an institution. But 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.880 where we started was one on one kind of betrayal 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.000 and betrayal trauma, where it was one person hurting another person, 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:27.440 and the harm exists in some sense, well sometimes just 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.080 by the very act as part of the harm. But 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:33.640 another part of the harm is this huge discrepancy between 0:05:34.839 --> 0:05:37.279 what you trust and what has happened to you. 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:41.120 Okay, can you talk more about that, that discrepancy between 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:42.760 what you trust and what has happened to you? 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:45.560 Yeah, part of The reason it's so harmful is it 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:50.920 creates a real world bind. What people do when they've 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.479 been harmed, and you know, a healthy reaction is to 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.640 seek support and shelter from those who have your back, 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:03.320 those you trust. But when the harm comes from that 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.719 very person or people, what are you going to do 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.000 if you seek shelter from those who are harming you. 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:12.560 Often that is actually what people end up doing, but 0:06:12.680 --> 0:06:15.640 it comes at a big cost. I mean, the other 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.360 thing people do is they run away, but that comes 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:21.560 at a big cost. It's a true buying. There is 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:24.359 not an you're stuck in some sense and you're going 0:06:24.400 --> 0:06:26.320 to pay a price even though it wasn't your fault. 0:06:26.560 --> 0:06:29.360 There's two paths you've talked about, right. You either confront 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.760 the betrayer, which is in some ways dangerous, right, and 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.640 then there's the running away then not confronting it. But 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:39.200 then one could argue there's a third path, which is 0:06:39.480 --> 0:06:42.080 tell yourself a story so that you don't even have 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:44.640 to view this person as betraying your trust. And that's 0:06:44.640 --> 0:06:47.440 where we get into your really important work on betrayal blindness. 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:51.600 Can you describe what betrayal blindness is? 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:58.640 Betrayal blindness is a survival mechanism for a person who's 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.839 being mistreated by somebody that they must depend upon. But 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.880 it is a survival mechanism that comes with a big cost, 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:08.240 and that cost is both in the short run in 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.160 the sense they can't stop the mistreatment, and in the 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:16.720 long run that they've lost some ability to assess who's trustworthy. 0:07:17.640 --> 0:07:21.760 People who cannot respond to betrayal trauma with betrayal blindness, 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:24.160 and not everybody can. Some people are better out of 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:28.520 than others often find themselves in the situation where the 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:33.440 abuse just gets worse and worse, and you know, they 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:37.760 may die from that abuse. So there's other ways betrayal 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.080 trauma can be toxic, and one of them comes from 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.880 not being able to have betrayal blindness, that it is 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.760 inherently a bad thing that is happening to a person. 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:50.600 I can mean, for instance, a child who cannot use 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.160 betrayal blindness may end up actually getting kicked out of 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:56.960 the house because their awareness is intolerable. 0:07:57.160 --> 0:07:59.200 Let me ask you this then, because the way you're 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:02.559 saying a child who can't use betrayal blindness, a person 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:06.120 in a relationship who can't use betrayal blindness, the way 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.120 you're describing it, it sounds like a conscious process. 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:11.480 I don't mean it to be. It's really hard to 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.440 use it consciously because it's hard to control the attachment 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:18.560 system that right well, and sort of our feelings tend 0:08:18.640 --> 0:08:22.280 to leak and it takes a lot of effort to 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.080 deceive the hide feelings. So most of the time the 0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:28.680 betrayal blindness happens outside of consciousness, and it makes it 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.480 much more effective. And then you can engage in all 0:08:31.520 --> 0:08:35.400 the behaviors that are positive for a relationship. So if 0:08:35.440 --> 0:08:38.200 you don't know you're doing it, that is, you don't 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.200 know you're blocking out some mistreatment, you can continue to 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:46.040 be friendly and loving and all the things that keep 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.880 that relationship going. So it's actually better to have it 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.480 outside of consciousness. But you know, I've talked to people 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:56.680 who consciously try to use it, Like they say, like, yeah, 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:01.319 I know my partner is cheating on me and doing 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:05.920 these other harmful things, but I don't want to lose 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:10.319 that person, And besides, I need their income, don't want 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:12.320 them have to move out of my house. And you'll 0:09:12.320 --> 0:09:14.520 give you a host of reasons. They don't want to 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.920 confront that person because they realize how risky it is, 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.960 and so they try with all their might to put 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.840 it out of their mind. And you know, some people 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.760 are better at that than others, but I'm sure we've 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:31.040 all tried it at some point, so you know they're 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:34.040 really I think three pass. And they have an interesting 0:09:34.520 --> 0:09:39.800 analogy to the terms fight, flight, and freeze, because these 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:44.760 are survival responses to threat. So when somebody betrays you 0:09:44.960 --> 0:09:49.240 and you are fully empowered, it actually is in your 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:53.280 interest to either fight or flee because you don't want 0:09:53.320 --> 0:09:56.440 to continue to be harmed by this person. So you 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:59.440 go to a store where you keep getting that product 0:09:59.480 --> 0:10:02.680 and you getting ripped off, Well, either you demand the 0:10:02.760 --> 0:10:04.880 store give you your money back, which would be fight, 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:07.720 or you decide not to shop there anymore, which would 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:10.480 be flight. You can think about that with relationships too. 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:13.839 A friend betrays you in a certain way and you 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:17.520 are empowered to pick different friends, well, you may well 0:10:17.679 --> 0:10:20.920 leave that friend or give them an ultimatum you either 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:26.320 correct this behavior or this relationship's over. However, that's great 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:30.080 if you have that empowerment, but it's destabilizing and you 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.880 are risking the continuation of the relationship and your status. 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.680 If you're not fully empowered. That can be very dangerous. 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.360 So a child doesn't have the option really right. And 0:10:42.480 --> 0:10:49.200 when a child, say, fights against mistreatment, it's often going 0:10:49.240 --> 0:10:52.440 to escalate the mistreatment. And when a child tries to 0:10:52.480 --> 0:10:55.400 flee from this treatment in a real world sense, like 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.400 maybe you know, hide in their room, or stop talking 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:02.800 to their parents or withdraw, they risk the person, their 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.319 parent or whoever it is not taking care of them 0:11:06.320 --> 0:11:09.480 and meeting their needs. Because relationships we cry are this 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.600 active involvement. So this is where that third path comes 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:17.440 in that I call betrayal blindness, which is the not 0:11:17.720 --> 0:11:21.360 seeing to some degree what's going on in order to 0:11:21.400 --> 0:11:25.320 stay engaged in a relationship that you feel and may 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.000 truly be necessary to your survival, and it can keep 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.520 a child or an adult alive. You see a similar 0:11:33.080 --> 0:11:36.800 dynamic in the workplace when somebody really needs a job 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.600 and they have a boss who's bullying them or sexually 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:45.800 harassing them. If they confront that by complaining or they 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.880 withdraw from that boss in some way, they may lose 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.280 their status, they may lose their job, and they may 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:57.319 feel that that's an existential threat. They really need that job. 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.559 So in that case, people can also use betrayal blindness 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:07.840 to keep the job by not seeing fully the mistreatment. 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.520 You said here that if a person feels empowered, then 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:14.680 they may be able to face down the betrayal situation. 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:19.600 In your experience, what do you believe drives this sense 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:23.800 of a person feeling sufficiently empowered to be able to 0:12:23.960 --> 0:12:26.200 address betrayal in a relationship. 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.880 That's a great question, and a complication is sometimes people 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:35.000 are actually empowered and they don't feel it. Sometimes people 0:12:35.400 --> 0:12:40.640 are not empowered but they think they are, so people 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:44.640 are not empowered when there is a vast power difference 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:49.240 between the two sides. If you're a small child, you're 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:54.000 not empowered in your relationship with your parents in a 0:12:54.120 --> 0:12:58.120 kind of physical sense. They can just overpower you. In 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:02.360 a really healthy parent child relationship, the parent will try 0:13:02.400 --> 0:13:05.200 to provide a kind of power to the child that 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.040 for instance, the child can complain and the parent will listen. 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:12.080 But it's a resource the parent's giving the child. Inherently, 0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:16.400 the situation is very asymmetric. The parent holds the power well. 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.599 Often in our society we have that kind of asymmetry, 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.960 So you know, it can show up. Suppose a traffic 0:13:23.040 --> 0:13:28.720 violation and uses all their social position, whether it's racial 0:13:28.960 --> 0:13:33.319 or their gun in their holster, to overpower the person 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.680 that they've just stopped. What's really tragic is when somebody 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.160 is in fact empowered and they don't see it. And 0:13:41.360 --> 0:13:46.240 one way that comes about is through childhood mistreatment as 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.559 well as societal messages. So we'll know, some people are 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:55.840 socialized to believe, whether due to gender other dimensions, that 0:13:56.120 --> 0:14:02.280 they are supposed to succumb to other people's wishes and demands, 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:04.920 and may feel that they don't have the power to 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.600 stand up for themselves when even in some sort of 0:14:08.679 --> 0:14:12.280 more objective sense, they do. But you know, some people 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:17.439 have learned betrayal blindness so well that they just immediately 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:21.400 jump to the not seeing the problem, even when they've 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:23.400 grown up and have some choices. 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.680 I think that the issues with child and parent, child 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.000 and teacher, even child and coach, anyone who could potentially 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:33.720 betray a child, right, that makes sense. A child is 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:38.120 inherently disempowered. It does start getting money, though, doctor Fried 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:42.240 when we talk about the interpersonal context, like you said, 0:14:42.280 --> 0:14:45.240 people who are empowered but don't even know it is. 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.320 You know, my work is in these narcissistic relationships where 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.360 in fact, you might even have two people who might 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:54.760 even hold relatively similar levels of societal power, and yet, 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.640 like you said, through chronic blindness in the relationship, they 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.640 don't feel empowered, They don't feel they can step up 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:04.120 to this person. And this is where we get into 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:08.200 terms like gaslighting, because even if they do front up 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:13.440 and say, hey, I just saw these inappropriate text messages 0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:15.840 or I just heard from someone in your office that 0:15:15.880 --> 0:15:18.280 you're behaving badly, or I saw how you behave whatever 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:22.200 it is that they're pointing out, that that betrayer as 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.120 it were, will say to them, no, I didn't, or 0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:28.560 what's wrong with you? And so, while there's no difference 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:33.000 in power one person being willing to engage in that 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:37.400 kind of abuse of psychological warfare, it makes the other 0:15:37.480 --> 0:15:39.680 person less empowered. Does that make sense? 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:43.160 It totally does. And you know I've seen this play out. 0:15:43.880 --> 0:15:47.760 I mean, if the person who's being betrayed had times 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:50.320 in their life, and we all did, because we were 0:15:50.320 --> 0:15:54.240 all children where they didn't have power, and if in 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:57.040 those situations there was any kind of abuse of that 0:15:57.160 --> 0:16:00.200 power and they learned to cope with it with betrayal blindness, 0:16:00.560 --> 0:16:03.360 then they're going to be very vulnerable to that system 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:09.280 being exploited. Again. Another factor here is that we are 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.360 wired and built to form attachments to other people to love, 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:17.280 and we do that from the earliest days with people 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:19.360 who have so much more power than us, because we 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:23.480 love our parents, and that love is how we experience 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:27.040 the attachment system that keeps us alive. And a baby 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.600 that can't express love in the way babies can gets 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.840 into trouble with a parent because parents need this to 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:39.520 reinforce all that caregiving. Well, given this, that love then 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:44.160 gets wrapped up in how betrayal works. Basically, if you 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.400 are in a situation where you love somebody but they 0:16:47.440 --> 0:16:52.320 are manipulating you, it's kind of like you are a 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.840 bit in that dependent relationship because of that love that 0:16:56.920 --> 0:17:00.840 you feel. It puts you in auation where you're going 0:17:00.920 --> 0:17:05.919 to have some motivation to protect that attachment, even if 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.560 you don't need it for your bread and butter, but 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:12.040 you need it emotionally or you think you do, and 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:16.199 that can be weaponized, that can be played on. So 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.040 these are good systems, the attachment systems good, but then 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:24.800 these systems can be used in other contexts against people. 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:27.679 In your book, blind to Betrayal, which every one of 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:29.919 you needs to go out there and read immediately. This 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:31.880 is one of the best books I've ever read. Every 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.959 survivor of narcissistic abuse needs to read this book. On 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:39.480 this show, we're talking about narcissistic abuse, right We're talking 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.480 about people who are in relationships that are almost It's 0:17:43.520 --> 0:17:46.400 a given that these are betraying relationships. At the core 0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.800 of it, the person with that personality organization who's in 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:54.400 the relationship and motivated by power, dominance, control and their 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.360 own insecurity, plus the traits of lack of empathy, entitlement 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:02.640 and all of that, is attempting to basically subjugate another person. 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:04.840 You know that the other person is acting entirely in 0:18:04.880 --> 0:18:09.240 their service, and that is sometimes to me, that inherently 0:18:09.880 --> 0:18:13.800 is a betrayal. There's an inherent betrayal in somebody who 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.240 doesn't treat you as an equal psychological player in a relationship. 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:22.200 So do you agree with that framing that betrayal blindness 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:26.320 may be basically an element of every single narcissistic relationship. 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:29.720 I think that's a very reasonable hypothesis. What you're saying 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:34.520 makes complete sense, and certainly you know it makes particularly 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:38.040 makes sense if you think about narcissistic relationships that persist 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.560 over time, right that, how could that persist over time 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.720 without some amount of betrayal blindness? 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:47.280 I'd argue they cannot. And I think that blindness to 0:18:47.359 --> 0:18:50.520 me fits this so well, because a narcissistic relationship is 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:54.320 a relationship with somebody whose personality organization is such that 0:18:54.400 --> 0:18:58.600 they cannot be in a healthy, balanced, equitable relationship, and 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:02.439 so they are going to betray to get their needs met. Right, So, 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:07.080 using that as a framework, do you think betrayal blindness 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:12.000 is what would make somebody vulnerable to getting stuck in 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:18.879 a relationship characterized by these dynamics of gas lighting, manipulation, invalidation, 0:19:19.640 --> 0:19:24.120 chronic lying, could be cheating, could be financial abuse. Do 0:19:24.160 --> 0:19:26.640 you think that that isn't connected to people either staying 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:29.639 in these relationships or getting sucked back in even when 0:19:29.680 --> 0:19:31.080 they try to step away from them. 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.800 Yes, I do, And you know, if I'm correct, then 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:41.640 helping people not respond with betrayal blindness will help them 0:19:42.520 --> 0:19:46.400 not stay in such relationships and protect themselves and have 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:49.840 healthy boundaries so that they're not being mistreated in this way. 0:19:49.840 --> 0:19:51.879 And I think one of the things you're saying that 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.200 I think is really important is that abuse can occur 0:19:55.440 --> 0:19:59.760 in the emotional and psychological sphere. And it's much easier 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:03.080 for us to identify abuse when it's physical or sexual, 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:07.760 but for emotional and psychological abuse, which are so powerful 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.720 in some ways at the heart of all abuse, are 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:15.520 not always as easy to identify and to label and 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:18.679 to know. And part of that is the way we're taught, 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.199 and you know, we don't necessarily have the skills, But 0:20:21.280 --> 0:20:24.679 part of it is that emotional and psychological abuse really 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:29.360 occurs over time in a relationship context. It's not usually 0:20:29.440 --> 0:20:32.040 in the moment, whereas you know physical and sexual abuse 0:20:32.280 --> 0:20:35.760 there is in the moment's sense of it. But everybody 0:20:35.800 --> 0:20:37.560 can have a bad like if you're in a long 0:20:37.640 --> 0:20:43.320 term relationship with somebody, you're going to say something harmful sometimes. 0:20:43.520 --> 0:20:46.880 I mean, that's human. So what makes it abusive is 0:20:47.000 --> 0:20:51.919 this pattern over time, and I think that's just harder 0:20:51.960 --> 0:20:54.399 to recognize. And so yeah, I think it's harder for 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:58.400 people to say this is abusive, to understand it's abusive, 0:20:58.760 --> 0:21:02.239 whether you're the victim or even watching a relationship. I mean, 0:21:02.280 --> 0:21:06.720 how many times do we say in this world that 0:21:07.240 --> 0:21:11.080 this harmful relationship at the psychological level is abusive. 0:21:11.800 --> 0:21:15.800 I think that in narcissistically abusive relationships too. From the 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.480 world at large, Like you said, these are long term relationships, 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.119 and I'm really glad you made that distinction, because I 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:23.400 think what happens is that there's a real risk of 0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:26.000 like everybody has a bad day, you know, it's not 0:21:26.080 --> 0:21:28.000 that big a deal. This isn't about a bad day. 0:21:28.240 --> 0:21:30.840 These are bad lifetimes. Like these are thirty forty fifty 0:21:30.880 --> 0:21:34.040 year marriages. These are relationships that have been characterized by 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:38.520 this kind of emotional and psychological hijacking since pretty much infancy. 0:21:38.760 --> 0:21:42.440 So this is the only reality that this person really 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:45.720 really knows. But the pushback from the world, and honestly, 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:48.720 even I think the psychological community is sometimes like, oh, 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.480 that's just someone who's a jerk. It's a larger scale 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:57.760 psychological issue that is actually doing significant harm to an individual. 0:21:58.359 --> 0:22:08.520 We will be right back with this conversation. So going 0:22:08.600 --> 0:22:12.480 back then to betrayal blindness, I want to connect it 0:22:12.520 --> 0:22:16.439 to a really common phenomenon we see in survivors is 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:21.560 that people in these relationships blame themselves. This has got 0:22:21.600 --> 0:22:24.119 to be me. I've got to be doing something wrong. 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.000 How do you see betrayal blindness connecting to the self 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:30.320 blame we see that people experience when they're in emotionally 0:22:30.359 --> 0:22:31.560 abusive relationships. 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:35.159 Yeah, I think they're quite connected. In Another sort of 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:38.680 related concept here, I think is shame. If you can 0:22:38.960 --> 0:22:42.399 take some or even all of the blame of what's 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:47.720 not working onto yourself, it actually supports the betrayal blindness, 0:22:47.800 --> 0:22:51.119 right because you are no longer going to see the 0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:54.280 other person as responsible, so you're not going to see 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.639 that they're betraying you. And you know, one way people 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:01.000 take on the blame is through the emotion of shame, 0:23:01.520 --> 0:23:04.800 where they get mistreated by somebody else and then they 0:23:04.840 --> 0:23:09.160 feel shamed, and that shame has it sort of implicit 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:12.240 in it that there's something I've done or could do 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:18.080 differently to have prevented or in the future prevent this mistreatment, 0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:20.840 and therefore it's not the fault of the person who's 0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:24.119 doing it. It's something about me, and therefore I can 0:23:24.240 --> 0:23:27.520 stay in relationship with this person because I'm the one 0:23:27.520 --> 0:23:30.919 who's the problem. So it's part of that very dynamic 0:23:31.040 --> 0:23:32.520 of betrayal blindness, right. 0:23:32.600 --> 0:23:35.680 But the driver then, ultimately, going back to the attachment model, 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:38.400 is to maintain the relationship that we're still going back 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:42.040 to that sort of home base as it were, Right, It's. 0:23:41.880 --> 0:23:45.240 Not that people want to be masochistic. It's that people 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:48.680 are trying to protect something they feel is essential. 0:23:48.800 --> 0:23:52.080 Yep. And to everyone listening to this who's going through 0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:55.159 narcissistic abuse, I hope you can sit with that that 0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:59.480 you are trying to preserve something, an attachment that feels 0:23:59.600 --> 0:24:02.320 so essential to you. This is not you being foolish. 0:24:02.640 --> 0:24:06.600 This is about you actually trying to safeguard something that 0:24:06.680 --> 0:24:10.080 feels important to you. And I think where survivor struggle 0:24:10.160 --> 0:24:12.919 is exactly where you're talking about, doctor Fried. Is this 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:15.920 idea of this shame like what kind of fool am 0:24:15.920 --> 0:24:19.400 I that I'm okay with this. But the much more 0:24:19.520 --> 0:24:23.520 primal drum beat to that is the attachment need. That 0:24:23.640 --> 0:24:28.280 inherent human need for love, connection, relation, and attachment is 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:32.240 so strong that this entire cognitive process is a way 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:35.000 to keep the primal need met. Does that make sense? 0:24:35.200 --> 0:24:37.199 Yeah? And I mean part of that primal need is 0:24:37.240 --> 0:24:39.560 to us, so to love, it's to be loved, but 0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:42.800 it's too love too, and so it's a good thing 0:24:42.840 --> 0:24:47.240 about us. I mean, I think that people's eagerness to 0:24:47.359 --> 0:24:50.399 love is one of the best things about us, and 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:53.640 the fact that it can make us vulnerable to mistreatment, 0:24:53.720 --> 0:24:59.040 to betrayal that comes hand in hand with this good 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:02.840 thing will to love. So it does hurt my heart 0:25:02.960 --> 0:25:08.200 to see people blaming themselves for staying in a relationship 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:12.480 where they love the person. Yeah, the person may be 0:25:12.600 --> 0:25:15.720 hurting them, and that's a terrible thing, but that you know, 0:25:15.840 --> 0:25:20.199 isn't fundamentally something they've done wrong. And although you and 0:25:20.240 --> 0:25:22.240 I from the outside might want them to get out 0:25:22.240 --> 0:25:26.560 of that relationship because we see it's harming them, their 0:25:26.640 --> 0:25:29.520 impulse to make it work and to stay in it 0:25:29.560 --> 0:25:31.520 comes from a good place. 0:25:31.640 --> 0:25:34.600