WEBVTT - Extended Cognition: Brain, Fingers, Web and Krang 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:06.160 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how stoffworks 0:00:06.200 --> 0:00:14.600 dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:16.960 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:19.479 today we're gonna be revisiting a topic that we brought 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.720 up in a recent episode that we did a little 0:00:21.760 --> 0:00:24.680 bit back. We did the episode Where Is My Mind, 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:28.040 and we talked about the physical sensation of the mind, 0:00:28.120 --> 0:00:31.600 where it feels like you're thinking from. And one of 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.920 the topics we touched on peripherally in that episode was 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:39.599 the idea of extended cognition. And that's this framework that 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:43.960 has emerged in psychology and in thinking about philosophy of mind, 0:00:44.600 --> 0:00:49.880 that maybe cognition, the process of thinking involves more than 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:53.440 just the brain, and in a very real sense, not 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.600 just that there are some external tools that help your 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:01.240 brain think, but that your brain is thinking in conjunction 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.800 with those external tools. And before we dive into it, 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:06.800 I just wanted to give a shout out to the 0:01:06.840 --> 0:01:10.679 fact that this topic was inspired by a good article 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:12.959 that I read in The Atlantic called does a spider 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:16.320 use its web like you use your smartphone? By Joshua 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.440 so called. So feel free to go ahead and check 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:21.720 that article out. We're gonna be talking about some of 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:24.200 the same topics today about the the idea of extended 0:01:24.200 --> 0:01:28.080 cognition and what role it might play in biology and evolution. 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:30.399 That's right, We're gonna be talking about the spiders, but 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.280 we're also going to talk about some octopuses. We're gonna 0:01:33.319 --> 0:01:36.360 talk about some mantoids. We're gonna talk about crying from 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.080 teenage muntant ninja turtles. So, uh, they're gonna be a 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.920 few different examples that we touch on now. Crying actually 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:47.840 has a very interesting publishing history in the philosophy of mind. Yeah, well, well, 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:49.880 I mean like literally crying or just things that are 0:01:49.920 --> 0:01:53.640 crying esque. Well, crying is a classic example of the 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.200 brain in a vat, except, of course, in this case 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:58.840 the vat has legs and big beefy arms and a 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:02.560 little tiny head, which came first Daniel Dennett's paper about 0:02:02.560 --> 0:02:04.760 the brain and the jar that we referenced in the 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:08.760 last episode, or or Crag himself. I'll under I actually 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.399 do not know when Krang emerged. You know more about 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:13.600 teenage muting ninja turtles than me. I'm sure I think 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:16.160 he dates back to the comics, but I have to 0:02:16.200 --> 0:02:20.080 admit to not being super knowledgeable about teenage meeting Ninja Turtles. 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:23.280 It's most most most of my expertise comes from watching 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.840 some episodes of the cartoon, and of course the the 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.920 the first generation of movies. Oh and and the video 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.280 game to Beat Him Up video game. I pretty much 0:02:31.320 --> 0:02:34.600 just know the movies and the game. Yeah. But anyway, Yeah, 0:02:34.600 --> 0:02:38.440 so let's let's get into the idea of extended cognition. Essentially, 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.560 this can be phrased as a question, do mental processes 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:48.040 or cognition extend beyond the brain? Yeah? And this entails 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:51.360 the idea that our our our brains don't simply interact 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:54.840 with symbols, you know, form, stimuli, and so forth, but 0:02:54.960 --> 0:02:58.880 that our brains interact with these external things and forces, 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.800 and from this our mind emerges. So the mind is 0:03:01.840 --> 0:03:05.560 like a larger system than just what's generated by the brain. 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.920 In fact, the mind is, for example, the brain plus 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:13.840 its ability to count on the body's fingers. Yeah. Like, 0:03:14.160 --> 0:03:16.120 I don't know if this is a perfect metaphor. You 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:17.880 can give me feedback on this one, but one way 0:03:17.919 --> 0:03:19.440 I was I was trying to think of it. It 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.120 may be over overly elaborate, or overly mystical. But a 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:27.880 bongo player. Okay, uh, there's the bongo player playing the bongo, 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.880 so her hands are not the music. The drum is 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:33.760 not the music. The music emerges from the interface of 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:36.600 these two things. Yeah, I think that's a nice way 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:38.880 of putting it. Now, one way in which that's not 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.520 quite an apt metaphor is that it doesn't challenge our 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.320 assumptions in the same way. It's it's sort of natural 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.160 to think that the music is not in the player's hands. 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:52.240 But that is not always the way we think about cognition. 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:55.320 It is more natural, generally for people to think that 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.240 cognition lives inside the brain. That's where everything happens. Right. 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:01.120 I guess the more apt way to think of it 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:06.000 would be the bongo player's brain, the bongo players drum, 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:11.240 and when these things come together, this this musical form emerges. Yeah. 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.200 I guess that makes sense as as an introductory kind 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:16.920 of kind of metaphor here. No, no, no, I like it. 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.360 I'm not being I'm not being critical, no no, but 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:22.279 but I'm definitely stressing that it's it's We're gonna get 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.680 more elaborate than this. Okay, Well, if you accept the 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.400 idea just for the sake of argument. This idea might 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:30.560 not be the best way to think about cognition, but 0:04:30.640 --> 0:04:33.080 let's accept it for the sake of argument and move forward. 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:37.400 That cognition could be something that's not just what happens 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:40.479 in the brain, but the combination of what happens in 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.240 the brain or the central nervous system and things outside 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:48.719 of it. What different symbioses of brain and external circumstances 0:04:48.760 --> 0:04:52.040 could be represented there. Well, they're at least four different 0:04:52.120 --> 0:04:54.880 variants of extended cognition. And you know this depends on 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:56.920 which papers you're reading for the most part, and you 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:01.400 know the original thesis statement. But there's embodied cognition, which 0:05:01.440 --> 0:05:04.799 I believe we've covered on the podcast before. An embodied cognition. 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.120 Cognition is deeply dependent upon the body as an agent 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.359 of the brain. This could be, um, you know, a 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:14.320 causal role or a or it could have a greater role. 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.320 A lot of embodiment theory depends on the nature of 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.520 the mind body connection, which is something we've discussed your 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.280 time and time again. You've probably heard me mentioned the 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:27.279 rider on a horse versus centaur version of mind and body. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.160 We'll explain that a little bit. Okay, So with the 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.800 the the rider on a horse, this idea is that 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:35.960 we have we have our brain and we have our body, 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:38.760 and they're basically two separate things. The brain is just 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:41.800 riding in the body doing what needs to do. But 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.560 it's it's not as interconnected. It's a separate entity that 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.640 controls the body. Yeah, exactly. And it's what it's the 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:50.800 kind of a lot of times we don't even think 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:52.719 really closely about it. We may just fall into the 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:57.200 trap of thinking of ourselves as a brain, and especially 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.840 when it comes to how we feel, how we're in 0:05:59.880 --> 0:06:02.000 acting with the world around us, we're just thinking of 0:06:02.040 --> 0:06:05.559 ourselves as this this this mind trapped in this brain. 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:09.360 But the center analogy here is is is more in 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.520 keeping with a lot of the studies that we discussed here, 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:13.760 and I think a lot of the research has come 0:06:13.800 --> 0:06:16.960 out in previous decades, this idea that the mind and 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:18.960 the body are far more connected. It it's more like 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:23.560 a centaur, the human torso grown into the horse, where 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.840 it's a it's a unified body. For instance, if you 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:30.360 were to stab the flank of the centaur, then the 0:06:30.760 --> 0:06:34.560 human portion definitely feels it whereas if you were to 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:36.520 stab the horse in the flank, then the rider is 0:06:36.520 --> 0:06:39.080 only going to feel the uh you know the effects 0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:41.640 of the horse suddenly jumping, leaping, maybe trying to throw 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:43.960 him or her from the horse. Yeah, that's a good point. 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:45.599 So if you want to go back to Teenage Mutant 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.839 Ninja Turtles, where does which one is krank the rider 0:06:48.880 --> 0:06:51.560 on the horse? Right? Yes, to to refresh. If you're 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:55.240 not familiar with kran Um. Kran is like an alien 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.760 brain creature in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. He's kind of irritable. 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.480 He's an irritable villain, yes, uh. And he just looks 0:07:03.480 --> 0:07:06.160 like a squishy pink brain with two little tentacles and 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.400 left to his own, he just kind of like crawls 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:13.000 and slugs about. But he's He's frequently seen in two 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.120 different devices. One and this is more of what you 0:07:16.160 --> 0:07:21.840 see in the cartoon. A full android body, arms, legs, humanoid. 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:23.840 It seems to have skin, It has a head and 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.760 a face, and and it enables him to like fight 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:30.760 Ninja turtles and push things over and move around our 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.600 world like a physical humanoid. If you've actually never seen this, 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:39.000 the guy is shirtless, wearing like a red speedo and 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.480 gray suspenders. It's pretty weird. Yeah, it has kind of 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:45.400 this punk kind of a punk field, but also kind 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:47.760 of like a pro wrestling field. It feels like the 0:07:47.760 --> 0:07:54.080 fitting vessel for an alien trying to appear as a human. Now, 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:58.240 Krane also has another sort of robot body. Anybody who 0:07:58.280 --> 0:08:00.160 had the figures as a kid probably remember the US 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.320 If you bought Krang is just uh, I don't know 0:08:02.320 --> 0:08:05.200 what costs like six or seven bucks. I guess uh, 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:07.840 it would have been the little brain guy, little brain 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:13.480 dude with his tentacles in this little canopy walker contraption 0:08:13.760 --> 0:08:16.360 like basically at a walking vehicle for it, sort of 0:08:16.360 --> 0:08:18.760 like the A T S. T S and Star Wars 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.800 the Little Walkers. Yeah, So on one hand, I feel 0:08:22.800 --> 0:08:25.960 like we can we can apply this, uh this this 0:08:26.040 --> 0:08:29.160 brain body scenario, the centaur and the ride around a 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:31.960 horse to cringe. Like a lot of times we're trying 0:08:32.000 --> 0:08:33.800 to think as if we are craying, as if we 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:37.520 are essentially this brain creature and this body is just 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:40.840 the vessel that we're using. But we're not crying. We're splinter. 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:44.840 That's what the T shirt says. That's that's the good 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:52.760 one for the bumper sticker. You're not crying, you're splinter. Okay, 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:54.240 so I'm gonna come back to crying in a minute. 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.120 But but let's talk about just some other examples or 0:08:57.160 --> 0:09:02.880 possible examples of extended cognition. Okay, are we still unembodied cognition? Okay, 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.880 so maybe you count with your fingers classic example than 0:09:06.920 --> 0:09:09.760 an rather overt example. Right, I do this all the time. 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:13.280 It's it's frankly a little embarrassing, um, but it's a 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:16.960 good trick, right is. Yeah, that's why my brain refuses 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:21.160 to learn more complicated methods of calculating things, because the 0:09:21.160 --> 0:09:23.920 fingers are always there, even if I have to do 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.559 it below the table so that the gaming group doesn't 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:28.760 know that I'm doing it to, you know, figure out 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.560 hit points. They're they're they're always available, and they always help. Now, 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:35.240 one thing I noticed about counting on my fingers I 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:38.040 assume it's the same for everybody else, is that it's 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:41.959 it's even more helpful when you're trying to manage two 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:46.120 cognitive tasks at once, meaning you're not just counting something, 0:09:46.160 --> 0:09:49.040 but for example, you're trying to remember the names of 0:09:49.160 --> 0:09:52.440 something at the same time that you're counting them. Like 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:55.600 if somebody asks you, like, um, how many people from 0:09:55.640 --> 0:09:59.520 your office we're at the meeting the other day, and 0:09:59.600 --> 0:10:01.640 you're trying to remember them, so you go through their 0:10:01.679 --> 0:10:04.360 faces and names and and list them off. So you're 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.839 trying to remember who you've already listed and who was there, 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.920 and trying to count them at the same time. So 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:15.880 you're juggling multiple different cognitive tasks and having the fingers 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:19.280 there to store the counting number while you're also trying 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:22.840 to call up faces and remember who you've already listed, 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.600 helps you get through the task without your brain catching 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:28.200 on fire. Yeah, I mean that's how I feel running 0:10:28.360 --> 0:10:30.960 a role playing game, because that you'll be in a 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:35.120 combat scenario essentially trying to communally tell a story. You're 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:38.680 trying to manage pieces on a board, so there's a 0:10:38.720 --> 0:10:42.120 spatial element, and then you're having to continually do math. 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:45.000 You know, granted not particularly complex math at all, but 0:10:45.040 --> 0:10:48.440 you're still you're having to constantly adding some track things 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.080 to keep up with with hit points and damage. And 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:55.199 it's very obvious the role that our fingers and our 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.840 toes even may have played in the evolution of number 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:01.200 and counting systems, right, I mean it's right there in 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:04.319 the types of counting systems we use exactly based in 0:11:04.520 --> 0:11:07.080 or decimal systems stem from the use of both hands, 0:11:07.280 --> 0:11:10.520 while based twenty or vegesimal systems are based on the 0:11:10.640 --> 0:11:13.640 use of fingers and toes. And you can point to 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.840 to any number of statements about posture and our body 0:11:16.840 --> 0:11:20.840 positioning and how it relates to innate or learned cognition. Uh, 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.040 you know, not to get into arguments over the validity 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:26.240 of each of these, but you know, meditation, superhero pose 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.280 the kindly brontosaurus. Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, explain this 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.480 kindly brontosaurus. Oh yeah, kindly brontosaurus. I forget whose whose 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.880 brain child this is, But it's the idea that I say, say, 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:42.280 you're you're in an airport and you you know that 0:11:42.360 --> 0:11:46.440 the individual behind the counter can really help you, but 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.160 they don't necessarily have to. You're in you're in a 0:11:49.160 --> 0:11:51.880 situation where you really don't want to offend, but you 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:53.640 also know that if you try and charm your way, 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:55.800 if you try to intimidate your way, it's just you're 0:11:55.840 --> 0:11:57.960 just gonna fall flat on your face. Right, So there's 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.120 this idea that you just kind of you assume this 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:03.920 posture like imagine you have a long uh brontosaurus or 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.800 I guess the potosaurus would be more correct. You have 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:10.120 this long sauropod neck at any rate ultimately doesn't matter 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.680 something you have the school book idea of a brontosaurs. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:14.960 You kind of assume this posture where you sort of 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.439 crane your neck out and uh, and you have your 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:19.880 your your your arms folded. So you take on this 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:25.440 very um humble appearance, this very meat humble appearance, and 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:28.360 then you ask for help or you inquire with the 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:30.760 front desk for something that they don't have to give you. 0:12:31.000 --> 0:12:34.960 And it's supposedly generates results, So it's like a it's 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.680 like a mercy generator. Yeah, but I could also see 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:40.280 how if you assume this posture, you are you know, 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.160 you're you're also adjusting your demeanor as well. Oh okay, 0:12:44.160 --> 0:12:46.679 so you're saying that it could be a self feedback 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.120 mechanism that could be aiding in cognition like that you 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:53.680 could be for example, if you're in a situation and 0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:56.600 you know you need to maintain a certain state of mind, 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.000 but it can be cognitively taxing to try to force 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.880 yourself to maintain that state of mind while you're doing 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:06.720 things in that situation, that maybe assuming a certain posture 0:13:07.280 --> 0:13:10.640 automatically keeps your brain in that state of mind. Right. 0:13:10.679 --> 0:13:13.439 The superhero post is probably a better example of this. 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:15.280 This was this was popular in some of the science 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:16.840 headlines for a little bit. You know, the idea that 0:13:16.880 --> 0:13:19.280 you you roll your shoulders back, you extend your chest, 0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.280 and this will give you a sort of a burst 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.520 of confidence. I think I saw people seriously questioned as 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:28.960 that result. It was. But but but it does raise 0:13:29.000 --> 0:13:32.199 the question like if I do that and I feel better, 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:35.720 is that is there something innately enabling about taking on 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:39.480 that pose? Or am I just priming myself and I 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.959 sort of getting into superhero mode so that I'm pumping 0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:46.880 myself up making myself feel a little braver by doing 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.280 this exercise. Yeah, well, I would say in that case, 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.559 it's possible that you could think of that as extended 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:54.600 or embodied cognition, right if it's doing some of the work, 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.600 so your brain doesn't have to continue to do that work. 0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.959 Right now, there's also embedded cognition Sian. This is an 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:05.040 external environment um playing a role. So like the idea 0:14:05.080 --> 0:14:06.720 that The interpretation of this, it came to my mind, 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.319 is like the beach makes me creative. Uh. There's also 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:13.520 enacted cognition. I think an example of this might be 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:17.400 yoga makes me relaxed. And as well as as as 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:20.720 a variant referred to as in clothes cognition, This idea 0:14:20.800 --> 0:14:23.480 that a uniform or your style of dress changes the 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.600 way you think. Uh, and and in closed cognition was 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:30.920 coined by cognitive psychologist Hajo Adam and Adam Glansky from 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.080 Northwestern University several years back. I believe there's an older 0:14:34.080 --> 0:14:35.840 episode of Stuff to Blow your Mind that gets into that. 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:41.720 There's some interesting studies about individuals holding clipboards or wearing um, uh, 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:46.720 you know, doctor's long lab coats, and how that affects 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.120 the way you think. Now, it's important to be clear 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:53.040 about the distinction we're making here between just all the 0:14:53.040 --> 0:14:56.560 ways things beyond our brain normally affect us versus the 0:14:56.600 --> 0:15:01.080 idea of cognition taking place in conjunction with them. So, 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:03.960 if you you're working on this idea of embodied cognition, 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:08.520 embedded cognition, enacted cognition, in all of these cases, you're 0:15:08.560 --> 0:15:11.200 either talking about you know, your body or your environment 0:15:11.400 --> 0:15:15.360 or activities that you're doing are literally taking the place 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:19.960 of information processing or information storage that would need to 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:22.840 happen in the brain otherwise, or in the central nervous 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:26.880 system in the case of a smaller animal. Yeah. Now 0:15:26.960 --> 0:15:29.240 to bring it back to crying though, I just want to, Okay, 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.360 just so everyone can continue to to ponder this question 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:34.840 as we continue on with the episode. So you have 0:15:34.920 --> 0:15:38.320 craying just naked, craying on the floor in a pool 0:15:38.360 --> 0:15:41.040 of his brain juice, if crying in the big humanoid 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:43.360 android body, and you have craying in the sort of 0:15:43.440 --> 0:15:48.440 simplistic six dollar walker. Okay, So to what extent or 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.080 each of these cases altering his cognition? Is craying on 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:56.320 the floor, crying the humanoid body and crying in the walker? 0:15:56.640 --> 0:16:01.920 Are are they distinct cognitive situations? Is that android body 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.600 changing the way that Kring thinks? I mean, I could 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:07.840 see that it possibly could be like if Krang needs 0:16:07.840 --> 0:16:10.400 to count on his fingers, but he doesn't have fingers, 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:14.440 he just has little like reachie tentacles that would be 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.280 difficult to count to numbers much higher than two. Now, 0:16:18.360 --> 0:16:21.160 if he's working in his big body that has ten fingers. 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:24.240 He could maybe count on his fingers. I don't know 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.560 how much crying needs to count on his fingers. Well, 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.920 it raises the point if he's a if he is 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:33.480 an involved, intelligent creature that has these two tentacles, then 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:35.600 perhaps he has some sort of I can't remember he 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:39.440 has segments on those tentacles or their suckers. But maybe, 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:43.840 but maybe there is some sort of number system based 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:46.680 in his anatomy that he would otherwise use. And so 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:50.440 maybe when he is an android body, he's either handicapped 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:54.080 from a mathematical standpoint, or he is brilliant. I mean, 0:16:54.080 --> 0:16:57.880 he created like a giant drilling superstructure. So maybe he's 0:16:57.880 --> 0:17:02.120 smart enough that he can switch over to a decimal system. 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.919 When we talk about extended cognition in biology, one of 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.720 the hypotheses is going to be that extended cognition is 0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:13.159 especially useful to animals that have less resources to spend 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:16.120 on building big brains. Obviously, in Krank's case, he has 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:21.560 gone all in evolutionarily speaking in big brains, right literally 0:17:21.600 --> 0:17:24.400 all in all right, Well, on that note, let's take 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.560 a quick break, and when we come back we will 0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:30.480 get into these studies, into the science and we will 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:34.400 see how some natural world animals stack up against well 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:37.960 against the human condition as well as the crane condition. 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.680 All right, we're back, all right. Before we get into 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.359 looking at extended cognition and biological research, I thought it 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.479 would be important to look at one classic paper in 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:55.280 the history of the idea of extended cognition, and this 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:58.880 is The Extended Mind. I think it's published by Oxford 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:03.560 University Press by the author's Andy Clark and David Chalmers. 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:07.760 Now it's worth noting this paper does include a reference determinator, 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:13.080 so Schwarzenegger's making it into classic philosophy papers. But in 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:15.480 addition to the other stuff we've talked about, one thing 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.760 they argue that I think is interesting is that beliefs 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.480 can be external to the brain. And they use the 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.600 example of a man with a memory disorder who carries 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:30.439 a notebook full of reminders about everyday facts. So the 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:32.920 way they set up the scenario, he's got a notebook 0:18:33.480 --> 0:18:36.159 and if he needs to go to a location, he 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.720 can look up in the notebook how to get there 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.480 or where it is. And in a normal person's brain 0:18:42.520 --> 0:18:47.600 who has the ability to store mental images and navigation ideas, 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.399 you would say these these ideas are beliefs. Right, You 0:18:50.480 --> 0:18:53.640 believe the post office is located at the corner of 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.119 this street in that street, and you, based on that belief, 0:18:57.240 --> 0:19:01.320 navigate to that location. In what since is a man 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:05.720 with a notebook full of reminders different from somebody who 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:10.240 stores that information in long term memory. Mhm. It's an 0:19:10.280 --> 0:19:13.479 interesting question. And it also of course ties into our 0:19:13.640 --> 0:19:17.600 our dependence on smartphones these days for their note taking ability, 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.880 their information storage ability, and their their navigational abilities totally. 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:24.680 And of course this also makes me think, now, this 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:27.879 might not be exactly as applicable, because a lot of 0:19:27.880 --> 0:19:30.639 the people writing on the subject of extended cognition seem 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:34.119 very concerned about this idea of coupling or sort of 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:39.040 the ready availability of the external object to the mind. 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.479 But anyway, it makes me think about the way we 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:45.280 outsource many beliefs to the pronouncements of other people, people 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:49.440 in whom we vest expertise and authority. Right, So could 0:19:49.520 --> 0:19:51.400 it be said that if I'm trying to figure out 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:55.159 what to believe, and I just trust that whatever doctor 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.240 expert over here believes is correct, have I extended my 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:06.640 cognition to include doctor experts? Biological cognition. Mm hmm, Yeah, 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:08.280 I would think so to a certain extent. I mean 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:11.879 it gets into this similar way that we we have 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:14.640 trouble remembering things if we know that our significant other 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:16.840 is more likely to remember it, or that there are 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:20.440 certain things that we we we only really remember when 0:20:20.480 --> 0:20:24.000 talking to each other. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right, 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:26.480 And that would be an interesting thing you mentioned there, 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:28.840 because you're using the other person's brain as a tool. 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.560 But you could also consider that a form of enacted cognition, 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.600 where it's the process of talking. So it's not just 0:20:36.680 --> 0:20:39.640 that it's stored in their brain, but that by talking 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.600 to each other, that act or process can call up 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.280 a memory that otherwise you wouldn't need to store in 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.680 your mind. Yeah. Like, here's an example from from my life. 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.600 My wife and I have trouble remembering what year it 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.560 was that we met, like when when we started dating, 0:20:57.160 --> 0:20:59.520 and one of the reasons is it's always easy to 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.000 look up and see when the first Saw movie came out, 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.119 because we know that that that we met around the 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.520 same time that the first Saw movie hit theaters. Did 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:10.480 you all go on your first date together to see 0:21:10.480 --> 0:21:14.080 sauw Uh? I don't know if it was the first 0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:16.840 date technically, but early on we did end up going 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:21.520 to see the movie. So it's the Saw movie is 0:21:21.520 --> 0:21:23.880 not special to us in any other way other than 0:21:23.920 --> 0:21:26.359 it's a you know, just a marker on the timeline. 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:29.680 But since the marker is there, there's like a reluctance 0:21:29.680 --> 0:21:32.600 in our brains to actually record the date or the 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:34.840 month or the year, because we can always just pull 0:21:34.960 --> 0:21:37.280 up our phone, go to IMDb and see what your 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:40.560 saw came out. So every time you hear like a 0:21:40.680 --> 0:21:45.359 chainsaw going through some splattery liquid sounds you think made 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.800 for each other, yeah, and with with lots of really 0:21:48.480 --> 0:21:51.359 herky jerky editing thrown in there, and uh yeah, I 0:21:51.400 --> 0:21:53.720 mean for a while there was a Saw movie every year. 0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.159 Like most people don't appreciate how how helpful that was, 0:21:58.040 --> 0:21:59.880 but we would say we would see, oh it Saw 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:06.040 five or whatever the right. So here's another way of 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.840 following up on this, the idea of like maybe talking 0:22:08.840 --> 0:22:12.719 to your significant other that act could generate information that 0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:19.000 offsets cognitive deficits. Could language itself have evolved to provide 0:22:19.080 --> 0:22:22.840