1 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,160 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how stoffworks 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: dot com. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 3 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And 4 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,479 Speaker 1: today we're gonna be revisiting a topic that we brought 5 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: up in a recent episode that we did a little 6 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: bit back. We did the episode Where Is My Mind, 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: and we talked about the physical sensation of the mind, 8 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 1: where it feels like you're thinking from. And one of 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: the topics we touched on peripherally in that episode was 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:39,599 Speaker 1: the idea of extended cognition. And that's this framework that 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: has emerged in psychology and in thinking about philosophy of mind, 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 1: that maybe cognition, the process of thinking involves more than 13 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:53,440 Speaker 1: just the brain, and in a very real sense, not 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: just that there are some external tools that help your 15 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: brain think, but that your brain is thinking in conjunction 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: with those external tools. And before we dive into it, 17 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: I just wanted to give a shout out to the 18 00:01:06,840 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: fact that this topic was inspired by a good article 19 00:01:10,880 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: that I read in The Atlantic called does a spider 20 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: use its web like you use your smartphone? By Joshua 21 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: so called. So feel free to go ahead and check 22 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 1: that article out. We're gonna be talking about some of 23 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: the same topics today about the the idea of extended 24 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:28,080 Speaker 1: cognition and what role it might play in biology and evolution. 25 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: That's right, We're gonna be talking about the spiders, but 26 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: we're also going to talk about some octopuses. We're gonna 27 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: talk about some mantoids. We're gonna talk about crying from 28 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: teenage muntant ninja turtles. So, uh, they're gonna be a 29 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: few different examples that we touch on now. Crying actually 30 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:47,840 Speaker 1: has a very interesting publishing history in the philosophy of mind. Yeah, well, well, 31 00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: I mean like literally crying or just things that are 32 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: crying esque. Well, crying is a classic example of the 33 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: brain in a vat, except, of course, in this case 34 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: the vat has legs and big beefy arms and a 35 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,560 Speaker 1: little tiny head, which came first Daniel Dennett's paper about 36 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: the brain and the jar that we referenced in the 37 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,760 Speaker 1: last episode, or or Crag himself. I'll under I actually 38 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:11,399 Speaker 1: do not know when Krang emerged. You know more about 39 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: teenage muting ninja turtles than me. I'm sure I think 40 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: he dates back to the comics, but I have to 41 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: admit to not being super knowledgeable about teenage meeting Ninja Turtles. 42 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: It's most most most of my expertise comes from watching 43 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: some episodes of the cartoon, and of course the the 44 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: the first generation of movies. Oh and and the video 45 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: game to Beat Him Up video game. I pretty much 46 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: just know the movies and the game. Yeah. But anyway, Yeah, 47 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: so let's let's get into the idea of extended cognition. Essentially, 48 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: this can be phrased as a question, do mental processes 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: or cognition extend beyond the brain? Yeah? And this entails 50 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: the idea that our our our brains don't simply interact 51 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: with symbols, you know, form, stimuli, and so forth, but 52 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 1: that our brains interact with these external things and forces, 53 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: and from this our mind emerges. So the mind is 54 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: like a larger system than just what's generated by the brain. 55 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: In fact, the mind is, for example, the brain plus 56 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: its ability to count on the body's fingers. Yeah. Like, 57 00:03:14,160 --> 00:03:16,120 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a perfect metaphor. You 58 00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: can give me feedback on this one, but one way 59 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: I was I was trying to think of it. It 60 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: may be over overly elaborate, or overly mystical. But a 61 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: bongo player. Okay, uh, there's the bongo player playing the bongo, 62 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: so her hands are not the music. The drum is 63 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:33,760 Speaker 1: not the music. The music emerges from the interface of 64 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: these two things. Yeah, I think that's a nice way 65 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: of putting it. Now, one way in which that's not 66 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: quite an apt metaphor is that it doesn't challenge our 67 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: assumptions in the same way. It's it's sort of natural 68 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: to think that the music is not in the player's hands. 69 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: But that is not always the way we think about cognition. 70 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 1: It is more natural, generally for people to think that 71 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: cognition lives inside the brain. That's where everything happens. Right. 72 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: I guess the more apt way to think of it 73 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 1: would be the bongo player's brain, the bongo players drum, 74 00:04:06,000 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: and when these things come together, this this musical form emerges. Yeah. 75 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: I guess that makes sense as as an introductory kind 76 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:16,920 Speaker 1: of kind of metaphor here. No, no, no, I like it. 77 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,360 Speaker 1: I'm not being I'm not being critical, no no, but 78 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: but I'm definitely stressing that it's it's We're gonna get 79 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: more elaborate than this. Okay, Well, if you accept the 80 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: idea just for the sake of argument. This idea might 81 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: not be the best way to think about cognition, but 82 00:04:30,640 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 1: let's accept it for the sake of argument and move forward. 83 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,400 Speaker 1: That cognition could be something that's not just what happens 84 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:40,479 Speaker 1: in the brain, but the combination of what happens in 85 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: the brain or the central nervous system and things outside 86 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:48,719 Speaker 1: of it. What different symbioses of brain and external circumstances 87 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: could be represented there. Well, they're at least four different 88 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: variants of extended cognition. And you know this depends on 89 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:56,920 Speaker 1: which papers you're reading for the most part, and you 90 00:04:56,960 --> 00:05:01,400 Speaker 1: know the original thesis statement. But there's embodied cognition, which 91 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,799 Speaker 1: I believe we've covered on the podcast before. An embodied cognition. 92 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: Cognition is deeply dependent upon the body as an agent 93 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,359 Speaker 1: of the brain. This could be, um, you know, a 94 00:05:11,440 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: causal role or a or it could have a greater role. 95 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: A lot of embodiment theory depends on the nature of 96 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: the mind body connection, which is something we've discussed your 97 00:05:20,560 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 1: time and time again. You've probably heard me mentioned the 98 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: rider on a horse versus centaur version of mind and body. 99 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,160 Speaker 1: We'll explain that a little bit. Okay, So with the 100 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 1: the the rider on a horse, this idea is that 101 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: we have we have our brain and we have our body, 102 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 1: and they're basically two separate things. The brain is just 103 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: riding in the body doing what needs to do. But 104 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: it's it's not as interconnected. It's a separate entity that 105 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: controls the body. Yeah, exactly. And it's what it's the 106 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: kind of a lot of times we don't even think 107 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 1: really closely about it. We may just fall into the 108 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: trap of thinking of ourselves as a brain, and especially 109 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 1: when it comes to how we feel, how we're in 110 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: acting with the world around us, we're just thinking of 111 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,559 Speaker 1: ourselves as this this this mind trapped in this brain. 112 00:06:06,160 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: But the center analogy here is is is more in 113 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: keeping with a lot of the studies that we discussed here, 114 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of the research has come 115 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:16,960 Speaker 1: out in previous decades, this idea that the mind and 116 00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: the body are far more connected. It it's more like 117 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: a centaur, the human torso grown into the horse, where 118 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:26,840 Speaker 1: it's a it's a unified body. For instance, if you 119 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: were to stab the flank of the centaur, then the 120 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: human portion definitely feels it whereas if you were to 121 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 1: stab the horse in the flank, then the rider is 122 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,080 Speaker 1: only going to feel the uh you know the effects 123 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: of the horse suddenly jumping, leaping, maybe trying to throw 124 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: him or her from the horse. Yeah, that's a good point. 125 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: So if you want to go back to Teenage Mutant 126 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 1: Ninja Turtles, where does which one is krank the rider 127 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: on the horse? Right? Yes, to to refresh. If you're 128 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: not familiar with kran Um. Kran is like an alien 129 00:06:55,720 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: brain creature in Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. He's kind of irritable. 130 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: He's an irritable villain, yes, uh. And he just looks 131 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,160 Speaker 1: like a squishy pink brain with two little tentacles and 132 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: left to his own, he just kind of like crawls 133 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: and slugs about. But he's He's frequently seen in two 134 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: different devices. One and this is more of what you 135 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 1: see in the cartoon. A full android body, arms, legs, humanoid. 136 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:23,840 Speaker 1: It seems to have skin, It has a head and 137 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 1: a face, and and it enables him to like fight 138 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: Ninja turtles and push things over and move around our 139 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: world like a physical humanoid. If you've actually never seen this, 140 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: the guy is shirtless, wearing like a red speedo and 141 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 1: gray suspenders. It's pretty weird. Yeah, it has kind of 142 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 1: this punk kind of a punk field, but also kind 143 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: of like a pro wrestling field. It feels like the 144 00:07:47,760 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: fitting vessel for an alien trying to appear as a human. Now, 145 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: Krane also has another sort of robot body. Anybody who 146 00:07:58,280 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: had the figures as a kid probably remember the US 147 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: If you bought Krang is just uh, I don't know 148 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 1: what costs like six or seven bucks. I guess uh, 149 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: it would have been the little brain guy, little brain 150 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: dude with his tentacles in this little canopy walker contraption 151 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 1: like basically at a walking vehicle for it, sort of 152 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: like the A T S. T S and Star Wars 153 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 1: the Little Walkers. Yeah, So on one hand, I feel 154 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 1: like we can we can apply this, uh this this 155 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: brain body scenario, the centaur and the ride around a 156 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 1: horse to cringe. Like a lot of times we're trying 157 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: to think as if we are craying, as if we 158 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: are essentially this brain creature and this body is just 159 00:08:37,800 --> 00:08:40,840 Speaker 1: the vessel that we're using. But we're not crying. We're splinter. 160 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: That's what the T shirt says. That's that's the good 161 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: one for the bumper sticker. You're not crying, you're splinter. Okay, 162 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 1: so I'm gonna come back to crying in a minute. 163 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:57,120 Speaker 1: But but let's talk about just some other examples or 164 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: possible examples of extended cognition. Okay, are we still unembodied cognition? Okay, 165 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: so maybe you count with your fingers classic example than 166 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:09,760 Speaker 1: an rather overt example. Right, I do this all the time. 167 00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: It's it's frankly a little embarrassing, um, but it's a 168 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: good trick, right is. Yeah, that's why my brain refuses 169 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: to learn more complicated methods of calculating things, because the 170 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: fingers are always there, even if I have to do 171 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:26,559 Speaker 1: it below the table so that the gaming group doesn't 172 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: know that I'm doing it to, you know, figure out 173 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: hit points. They're they're they're always available, and they always help. Now, 174 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: one thing I noticed about counting on my fingers I 175 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: assume it's the same for everybody else, is that it's 176 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 1: it's even more helpful when you're trying to manage two 177 00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: cognitive tasks at once, meaning you're not just counting something, 178 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: but for example, you're trying to remember the names of 179 00:09:49,160 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 1: something at the same time that you're counting them. Like 180 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: if somebody asks you, like, um, how many people from 181 00:09:55,640 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: your office we're at the meeting the other day, and 182 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,640 Speaker 1: you're trying to remember them, so you go through their 183 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: faces and names and and list them off. So you're 184 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 1: trying to remember who you've already listed and who was there, 185 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: and trying to count them at the same time. So 186 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 1: you're juggling multiple different cognitive tasks and having the fingers 187 00:10:15,880 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: there to store the counting number while you're also trying 188 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,840 Speaker 1: to call up faces and remember who you've already listed, 189 00:10:23,160 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 1: helps you get through the task without your brain catching 190 00:10:25,640 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 1: on fire. Yeah, I mean that's how I feel running 191 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: a role playing game, because that you'll be in a 192 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: combat scenario essentially trying to communally tell a story. You're 193 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: trying to manage pieces on a board, so there's a 194 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: spatial element, and then you're having to continually do math. 195 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: You know, granted not particularly complex math at all, but 196 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,440 Speaker 1: you're still you're having to constantly adding some track things 197 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 1: to keep up with with hit points and damage. And 198 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:55,199 Speaker 1: it's very obvious the role that our fingers and our 199 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: toes even may have played in the evolution of number 200 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,200 Speaker 1: and counting systems, right, I mean it's right there in 201 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: the types of counting systems we use exactly based in 202 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: or decimal systems stem from the use of both hands, 203 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: while based twenty or vegesimal systems are based on the 204 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: use of fingers and toes. And you can point to 205 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 1: to any number of statements about posture and our body 206 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 1: positioning and how it relates to innate or learned cognition. Uh, 207 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: you know, not to get into arguments over the validity 208 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: of each of these, but you know, meditation, superhero pose 209 00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: the kindly brontosaurus. Wait wait, wait, wait, wait, explain this 210 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:34,480 Speaker 1: kindly brontosaurus. Oh yeah, kindly brontosaurus. I forget whose whose 211 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,880 Speaker 1: brain child this is, But it's the idea that I say, say, 212 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: you're you're in an airport and you you know that 213 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: the individual behind the counter can really help you, but 214 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: they don't necessarily have to. You're in you're in a 215 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: situation where you really don't want to offend, but you 216 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 1: also know that if you try and charm your way, 217 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: if you try to intimidate your way, it's just you're 218 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: just gonna fall flat on your face. Right, So there's 219 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: this idea that you just kind of you assume this 220 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: posture like imagine you have a long uh brontosaurus or 221 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:06,800 Speaker 1: I guess the potosaurus would be more correct. You have 222 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: this long sauropod neck at any rate ultimately doesn't matter 223 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: something you have the school book idea of a brontosaurs. 224 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: You kind of assume this posture where you sort of 225 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: crane your neck out and uh, and you have your 226 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 1: your your your arms folded. So you take on this 227 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 1: very um humble appearance, this very meat humble appearance, and 228 00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 1: then you ask for help or you inquire with the 229 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: front desk for something that they don't have to give you. 230 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: And it's supposedly generates results, So it's like a it's 231 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,680 Speaker 1: like a mercy generator. Yeah, but I could also see 232 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: how if you assume this posture, you are you know, 233 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 1: you're you're also adjusting your demeanor as well. Oh okay, 234 00:12:44,160 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: so you're saying that it could be a self feedback 235 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: mechanism that could be aiding in cognition like that you 236 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 1: could be for example, if you're in a situation and 237 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: you know you need to maintain a certain state of mind, 238 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: but it can be cognitively taxing to try to force 239 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: yourself to maintain that state of mind while you're doing 240 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: things in that situation, that maybe assuming a certain posture 241 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: automatically keeps your brain in that state of mind. Right. 242 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:13,439 Speaker 1: The superhero post is probably a better example of this. 243 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: This was this was popular in some of the science 244 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: headlines for a little bit. You know, the idea that 245 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,280 Speaker 1: you you roll your shoulders back, you extend your chest, 246 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: and this will give you a sort of a burst 247 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: of confidence. I think I saw people seriously questioned as 248 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: that result. It was. But but but it does raise 249 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: the question like if I do that and I feel better, 250 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: is that is there something innately enabling about taking on 251 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: that pose? Or am I just priming myself and I 252 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:42,959 Speaker 1: sort of getting into superhero mode so that I'm pumping 253 00:13:42,960 --> 00:13:46,880 Speaker 1: myself up making myself feel a little braver by doing 254 00:13:46,920 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 1: this exercise. Yeah, well, I would say in that case, 255 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:51,559 Speaker 1: it's possible that you could think of that as extended 256 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: or embodied cognition, right if it's doing some of the work, 257 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 1: so your brain doesn't have to continue to do that work. 258 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:00,959 Speaker 1: Right now, there's also embedded cognition Sian. This is an 259 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,040 Speaker 1: external environment um playing a role. So like the idea 260 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 1: that The interpretation of this, it came to my mind, 261 00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,319 Speaker 1: is like the beach makes me creative. Uh. There's also 262 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 1: enacted cognition. I think an example of this might be 263 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,400 Speaker 1: yoga makes me relaxed. And as well as as as 264 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 1: a variant referred to as in clothes cognition, This idea 265 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: that a uniform or your style of dress changes the 266 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 1: way you think. Uh, and and in closed cognition was 267 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: coined by cognitive psychologist Hajo Adam and Adam Glansky from 268 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: Northwestern University several years back. I believe there's an older 269 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: episode of Stuff to Blow your Mind that gets into that. 270 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: There's some interesting studies about individuals holding clipboards or wearing um, uh, 271 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, doctor's long lab coats, and how that affects 272 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 1: the way you think. Now, it's important to be clear 273 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: about the distinction we're making here between just all the 274 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,560 Speaker 1: ways things beyond our brain normally affect us versus the 275 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:01,080 Speaker 1: idea of cognition taking place in conjunction with them. So, 276 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 1: if you you're working on this idea of embodied cognition, 277 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: embedded cognition, enacted cognition, in all of these cases, you're 278 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,200 Speaker 1: either talking about you know, your body or your environment 279 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: or activities that you're doing are literally taking the place 280 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: of information processing or information storage that would need to 281 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: happen in the brain otherwise, or in the central nervous 282 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: system in the case of a smaller animal. Yeah. Now 283 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: to bring it back to crying though, I just want to, Okay, 284 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 1: just so everyone can continue to to ponder this question 285 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 1: as we continue on with the episode. So you have 286 00:15:34,920 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: craying just naked, craying on the floor in a pool 287 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,040 Speaker 1: of his brain juice, if crying in the big humanoid 288 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: android body, and you have craying in the sort of 289 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: simplistic six dollar walker. Okay, So to what extent or 290 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: each of these cases altering his cognition? Is craying on 291 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: the floor, crying the humanoid body and crying in the walker? 292 00:15:56,640 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: Are are they distinct cognitive situations? Is that android body 293 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,600 Speaker 1: changing the way that Kring thinks? I mean, I could 294 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: see that it possibly could be like if Krang needs 295 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 1: to count on his fingers, but he doesn't have fingers, 296 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: he just has little like reachie tentacles that would be 297 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: difficult to count to numbers much higher than two. Now, 298 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 1: if he's working in his big body that has ten fingers. 299 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: He could maybe count on his fingers. I don't know 300 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,560 Speaker 1: how much crying needs to count on his fingers. Well, 301 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: it raises the point if he's a if he is 302 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: an involved, intelligent creature that has these two tentacles, then 303 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: perhaps he has some sort of I can't remember he 304 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: has segments on those tentacles or their suckers. But maybe, 305 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: but maybe there is some sort of number system based 306 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: in his anatomy that he would otherwise use. And so 307 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,440 Speaker 1: maybe when he is an android body, he's either handicapped 308 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: from a mathematical standpoint, or he is brilliant. I mean, 309 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: he created like a giant drilling superstructure. So maybe he's 310 00:16:57,880 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: smart enough that he can switch over to a decimal system. 311 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: When we talk about extended cognition in biology, one of 312 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: the hypotheses is going to be that extended cognition is 313 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:13,159 Speaker 1: especially useful to animals that have less resources to spend 314 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: on building big brains. Obviously, in Krank's case, he has 315 00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:21,560 Speaker 1: gone all in evolutionarily speaking in big brains, right literally 316 00:17:21,600 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: all in all right, Well, on that note, let's take 317 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: a quick break, and when we come back we will 318 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: get into these studies, into the science and we will 319 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: see how some natural world animals stack up against well 320 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: against the human condition as well as the crane condition. 321 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,680 Speaker 1: All right, we're back, all right. Before we get into 322 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,359 Speaker 1: looking at extended cognition and biological research, I thought it 323 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,479 Speaker 1: would be important to look at one classic paper in 324 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,280 Speaker 1: the history of the idea of extended cognition, and this 325 00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: is The Extended Mind. I think it's published by Oxford 326 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,560 Speaker 1: University Press by the author's Andy Clark and David Chalmers. 327 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: Now it's worth noting this paper does include a reference determinator, 328 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: so Schwarzenegger's making it into classic philosophy papers. But in 329 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: addition to the other stuff we've talked about, one thing 330 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: they argue that I think is interesting is that beliefs 331 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 1: can be external to the brain. And they use the 332 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: example of a man with a memory disorder who carries 333 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: a notebook full of reminders about everyday facts. So the 334 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: way they set up the scenario, he's got a notebook 335 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 1: and if he needs to go to a location, he 336 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: can look up in the notebook how to get there 337 00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,480 Speaker 1: or where it is. And in a normal person's brain 338 00:18:42,520 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: who has the ability to store mental images and navigation ideas, 339 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 1: you would say these these ideas are beliefs. Right, You 340 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:53,640 Speaker 1: believe the post office is located at the corner of 341 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: this street in that street, and you, based on that belief, 342 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: navigate to that location. In what since is a man 343 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 1: with a notebook full of reminders different from somebody who 344 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 1: stores that information in long term memory. Mhm. It's an 345 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,479 Speaker 1: interesting question. And it also of course ties into our 346 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: our dependence on smartphones these days for their note taking ability, 347 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: their information storage ability, and their their navigational abilities totally. 348 00:19:21,920 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: And of course this also makes me think, now, this 349 00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: might not be exactly as applicable, because a lot of 350 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: the people writing on the subject of extended cognition seem 351 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,119 Speaker 1: very concerned about this idea of coupling or sort of 352 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: the ready availability of the external object to the mind. 353 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,479 Speaker 1: But anyway, it makes me think about the way we 354 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 1: outsource many beliefs to the pronouncements of other people, people 355 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: in whom we vest expertise and authority. Right, So could 356 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:51,400 Speaker 1: it be said that if I'm trying to figure out 357 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: what to believe, and I just trust that whatever doctor 358 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 1: expert over here believes is correct, have I extended my 359 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: cognition to include doctor experts? Biological cognition. Mm hmm, Yeah, 360 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: I would think so to a certain extent. I mean 361 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,879 Speaker 1: it gets into this similar way that we we have 362 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:14,640 Speaker 1: trouble remembering things if we know that our significant other 363 00:20:14,800 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 1: is more likely to remember it, or that there are 364 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: certain things that we we we only really remember when 365 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:24,000 Speaker 1: talking to each other. Yeah. I think that's absolutely right, 366 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: And that would be an interesting thing you mentioned there, 367 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: because you're using the other person's brain as a tool. 368 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,560 Speaker 1: But you could also consider that a form of enacted cognition, 369 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: where it's the process of talking. So it's not just 370 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 1: that it's stored in their brain, but that by talking 371 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 1: to each other, that act or process can call up 372 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: a memory that otherwise you wouldn't need to store in 373 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: your mind. Yeah. Like, here's an example from from my life. 374 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: My wife and I have trouble remembering what year it 375 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: was that we met, like when when we started dating, 376 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: and one of the reasons is it's always easy to 377 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: look up and see when the first Saw movie came out, 378 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: because we know that that that we met around the 379 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: same time that the first Saw movie hit theaters. Did 380 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,480 Speaker 1: you all go on your first date together to see 381 00:21:10,480 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: sauw Uh? I don't know if it was the first 382 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,840 Speaker 1: date technically, but early on we did end up going 383 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: to see the movie. So it's the Saw movie is 384 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,880 Speaker 1: not special to us in any other way other than 385 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,359 Speaker 1: it's a you know, just a marker on the timeline. 386 00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,680 Speaker 1: But since the marker is there, there's like a reluctance 387 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: in our brains to actually record the date or the 388 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: month or the year, because we can always just pull 389 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 1: up our phone, go to IMDb and see what your 390 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: saw came out. So every time you hear like a 391 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,359 Speaker 1: chainsaw going through some splattery liquid sounds you think made 392 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: for each other, yeah, and with with lots of really 393 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: herky jerky editing thrown in there, and uh yeah, I 394 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: mean for a while there was a Saw movie every year. 395 00:21:54,240 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: Like most people don't appreciate how how helpful that was, 396 00:21:58,040 --> 00:21:59,880 Speaker 1: but we would say we would see, oh it Saw 397 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:06,040 Speaker 1: five or whatever the right. So here's another way of 398 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:08,840 Speaker 1: following up on this, the idea of like maybe talking 399 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:12,719 Speaker 1: to your significant other that act could generate information that 400 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 1: offsets cognitive deficits. Could language itself have evolved to provide 401 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 1: an extension of our cognitive resources. Now go with me 402 00:22:22,920 --> 00:22:26,840 Speaker 1: for a second. We generally assume language is for the 403 00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: purpose of communication. Right when you ask people what languages for, 404 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,080 Speaker 1: it's so we can share ideas between one another. That's 405 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: obviously a big feature of it. I mean, that's what 406 00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:39,800 Speaker 1: I generally think of it for. But think about it 407 00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: this way, Isn't it also sometimes the case that you 408 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 1: can think more clearly about something once you put it 409 00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: into words. So what if words themselves act like a 410 00:22:53,480 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: calculator for causal reasoning. They're allowing cloudy, nonverbal thought to 411 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: be organized into something lucid, and in that way, they 412 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,520 Speaker 1: are actually a way of extending your mind. There an 413 00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: external tool that sort of stores and organizes information that 414 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: would be harder to manage internally without those words. Oh yeah, 415 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:18,439 Speaker 1: like one thing that comes to mind that you know, 416 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: I have to think, like, what's what's the process that 417 00:23:20,359 --> 00:23:23,399 Speaker 1: I regularly engage in writing? So if you think of 418 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: something like, say, say a lead paragraph or a or yeah, yeah, 419 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 1: let's go with lead paragraph or even a the first 420 00:23:32,119 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: chapter of a longer work, the first page of a 421 00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: short story, like that's a good catch. I'll just referring 422 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: to the segment of the thing you were you were creating. 423 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: But there are a lot of there are a lot 424 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: of things that that intro paragraph has to accomplish. There's 425 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: like a whole checklist of things you want to you 426 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 1: you want to achieve in doing that, and it's easier 427 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: to just sort of wrap it all up in a 428 00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:57,760 Speaker 1: in a basket and then consider that, uh in relation 429 00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 1: to the rest of the piece, Right. But I mean, 430 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,240 Speaker 1: i'd say at an even simpler level, I don't know 431 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 1: if this is often true for you, but it's very 432 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,280 Speaker 1: often true for me. I don't know what I really 433 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,200 Speaker 1: think about something until I write about it. Yeah, Yeah, 434 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,080 Speaker 1: I definitely, I definitely feel that way. Yeah, like writing 435 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,080 Speaker 1: writing about something is I mean, that's how I approached 436 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:19,439 Speaker 1: the podcast. Many times, I have to write out my 437 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: thoughts and that's where it begins to solidify a bit 438 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: so that I can then tear it apart to a 439 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: certain extent when I try and speak it. Yeah. So 440 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: it's the words themselves and the sentences as abstract symbols 441 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:35,479 Speaker 1: and and bits of encoding and the process of writing, 442 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:40,840 Speaker 1: both of those things that help you clear up cognitive cloudiness. Yeah, yeah, 443 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: I would. I would agree. One more thing I think 444 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: is interesting that Clark and Chalmers bring up before we 445 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: go into extended cognition and animals. They say, you know, 446 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,160 Speaker 1: if we discover that people use their environments for cognition, 447 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: that cognition isn't just in the brain, but that you're 448 00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: literally thinking with the things around you, does that mean 449 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: that interfering with somebody's environment is the same as interfering 450 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: with themselves as a person. Yeah, I would, I would 451 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: think so, you know. I mean when it when you 452 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,880 Speaker 1: think of so you're working space, they're like the careful 453 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 1: positioning of the things around you. Oh yeah, Like if 454 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: somebody moves the things around on your desk, I think 455 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: how violated that makes you feel? Yeah? Yeah, I mean it. 456 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 1: And it holds true whether you're talking about a messy 457 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: desk or you know, a meticulously clean desk. Things go 458 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:34,320 Speaker 1: in a certain place and if they're moved, then that 459 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 1: throws you off. Yeah. I can totally see that. And 460 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 1: I mean we all have particulars like I work with 461 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,680 Speaker 1: the window open or I work with the window closed. 462 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: I need this amount of sunlight, uh in my work environment, 463 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 1: or like if I go to yoga class, I need 464 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: my my yoga equipment in a certain spot. My water 465 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 1: goes here, my yoga blocks go here, and if they're 466 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,000 Speaker 1: out of position, that's going to it's gonna put me 467 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: out of position cognitively to a certain extent. All right, Robert, well, 468 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: are you ready to go to the animal kingdom. Let's 469 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,760 Speaker 1: do it. Let's let's pull in the animals. Well. Now, actually, 470 00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:11,159 Speaker 1: of course we are members of the animal kingdom. But 471 00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: it is helpful when talking about cognition, when trying to 472 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: understand what it really is, to look at animals other 473 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: than humans. So you can get a more objective point 474 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: of view, and you can peel off a lot of 475 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 1: the human complexity, of most of the human complexity of 476 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 1: culture and whatnot that we have on top. So it's 477 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,120 Speaker 1: kind of like getting down to more of the bedrock ideas. Yeah, 478 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: so let's look at animals and try to apply this 479 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:38,240 Speaker 1: same principle. Some animals have brains, yet nevertheless use other 480 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: parts of their body or things outside their body apparently 481 00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: to perform cognition. That's right. I mean, like I said, 482 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: we tend to fall back on our rider horse crane 483 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: in a can view of cognition because that's more combatible 484 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 1: with how we've come to view the bio mechanical human. 485 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,919 Speaker 1: But this vision doesn't work as well with many animal models, 486 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,720 Speaker 1: particularly smaller organisms, that essence really offload aspects of their 487 00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 1: cognition to other parts of their neural system or outside 488 00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: their neural system entirely. Yeah. One example I remember talking 489 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: about in past episodes is cockroaches, where so you know, 490 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 1: cockroaches have a central nervous system, but they've also got 491 00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 1: things throughout their bodies that you almost want to call 492 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,399 Speaker 1: separate little brains and their legs and body parts, but 493 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:27,600 Speaker 1: they're not really brains. They're neural tissue that appears to 494 00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 1: do some kind of independent information processing. Yeah. Like, another 495 00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: example that comes up is crickets that hear through quote 496 00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: unquote ears on their knees. One example that I always 497 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,879 Speaker 1: love is the male praying mantis who continues to mate 498 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: after his mate has decapitated him. So in these cases, 499 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: copula tory movements in mantids are controlled by masses of 500 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: nerve tissue in the abdomen rather than the brain. So 501 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: what what that makes you want to say, is like, oh, 502 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: so they've got a second brain their abdomen, right, And 503 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: that's what some of the science headlines I remember they 504 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: went with that. They're like the male praying man as 505 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: has a brain and it's uh, and it's genitals. But 506 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: the truth is more interesting than that. Yeah, because it's 507 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: not the brain. It's it's not a second brain. Uh, 508 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: it's just nerve tissues beyond the brain. And in fact, 509 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: with the with the praying mantis, in any cases, the 510 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: the head is gone, the head is eaten away, and 511 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:29,040 Speaker 1: it's going to copulate more ferociously. It's in a sense 512 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: the it's like the dead man switch or the dead 513 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: mantis switch has been hit on mating. Now you might 514 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: think like, well, I mean, come on, how much cognitive 515 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 1: capacity is really involved in mating? Like do you really 516 00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: need to do that much information processing to mate? I 517 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: don't know what mantis mating exactly looks like. I'm not 518 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:56,040 Speaker 1: imagining something incredibly complex. Well, they're they're videos, but videos 519 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: you can look up at work, or yeah, they're, well 520 00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:01,840 Speaker 1: they're It depends where you're your employers fall on a 521 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: mantoid intercourse. But yeah, I mean, uh, I think I 522 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: think we're we have a we have a relaxed policy 523 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: on it here if I'm remembering her handbook correctly. But 524 00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: of course it goes way beyond just activities like mating. 525 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: You can say that cognition in many ways extends to 526 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:24,480 Speaker 1: all parts of the body and even much more complex animals. Yeah, 527 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:30,120 Speaker 1: let's take take octopi, octopuses, octopods. I think, I think 528 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: I like octopods. I know we've debated this in the past. 529 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 1: What's the plural of octopus. I'm going with octopods, not octopusies, 530 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,440 Speaker 1: despite the James Bond film. Maybe that's the British Uh, 531 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: that's the metric thing. Maybe that is the plural for 532 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: talking about multiple copies of the movie. There you go. 533 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: If you've got like fourteen blue rays of octopusy on 534 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,120 Speaker 1: your on your kitchen counter for some reason, it's just like, hey, 535 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: can you move the octopuses out of the way. I 536 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: need to chop some celery. There we go. So octopuses 537 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,200 Speaker 1: are smart critters, though they have they have a rather 538 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: different brain from us, but they've been observed to pass 539 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: modified tests of consciousness. Even it's one of the reasons 540 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,000 Speaker 1: that I make it a point not to eat octopi. Uh. 541 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: They certainly don't follow the big brain model of cognition, however, 542 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: with their central brain composing only a small part of 543 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,840 Speaker 1: a greater nervous system, so by by most estimates two 544 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: thirds of their roughly five hundred million neurons are located 545 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,760 Speaker 1: in their arms. Wow, that makes sense, right, I mean 546 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:35,360 Speaker 1: octopi are you see them moving around there? Mostly a 547 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,560 Speaker 1: creature of arms. It's it's that's their whole thing. That's 548 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: how they navigate their world. That's how they they capture 549 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: their prey. Uh, it's in the title of the organism. 550 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: So on our model of cognition, that would seem to 551 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: make us think that what the octopus must have in 552 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: its brain is a sort of picture of the environment 553 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: around it in its brain mental representation of its environment, 554 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: and then also some sort of appropriate receptive sense of 555 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,800 Speaker 1: where all of its arms are in relation to the 556 00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: features of that environment. Right, Like, it's got a room 557 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: in its mind that's the ocean floor around it, and 558 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,880 Speaker 1: it knows where all of its limbs are in that room, 559 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: and the mental representation is that what's going on? Well, 560 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: according to Macquarie University's kin Ching, the octopus does not 561 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,320 Speaker 1: seem to require centralized mental image, or I'm assuming this 562 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: is in line with the idea of body schema, right, 563 00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: it doesn't need the centralized mental image of what its 564 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,920 Speaker 1: body is doing in order to do it. The arms, 565 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: it would seem to put it, you know, loosely know 566 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: how to move. So the arms do their own thinking 567 00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: in a way. Yeah. So a sucker on a tentacle touches, say, 568 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 1: a piece of crap meat. Yea, it sends a wave 569 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: of impulses up the arm. Now by most you know, 570 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: examples you would expect that, you know, are sort of 571 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,520 Speaker 1: grade school understanding of nerve impulses. A human touches something, 572 00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: the holse to travel up the arm through the nervous 573 00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: system to the brain. The brain, Yeah, well, what happens 574 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: here is seems to be a little different. The base 575 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,840 Speaker 1: of the arm sends another impulse down the arm. The 576 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: two signals meet and an elbow or bend forms. It's 577 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: not a real elbow, but a bind essentially forms to 578 00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: allow the grass crab morsel to then reach the mouth 579 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: of the octopus. Now that is interesting now that this 580 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: is one of the facts that was mentioned in that 581 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: Atlantic article I mentioned at the top of the episode 582 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: that but this was very interesting to me. So it 583 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: knows how to bring a piece of food up to 584 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 1: its beak by bisecting the distance between the place where 585 00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: it has grasped the food and the base of the 586 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 1: arm up at the up at the head by just 587 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: calculating that within the arm itself. Yeah, it essentially has 588 00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: a cheat built into its its neural system so that 589 00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't have to make those computations with the brain. 590 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: That's my readA on it anyway, brilliant. It's also I 591 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: can't help but it sort of go wild with this 592 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: and and think, all right, well, we're talking about about 593 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,720 Speaker 1: how external things change cognition. Uh, it's interesting to think 594 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: about in terms of other things was we've observed or 595 00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:17,560 Speaker 1: in one case hypothesized um octopus is doing. For instance, 596 00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,680 Speaker 1: consider the coconut octopus or veined octopus that uses coconuts 597 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: or seashells for shelter. Essentially, you know, basic tool use. 598 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: To what extent is that altering its cognition. Well, that's 599 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: a good question, and we might be able to apply 600 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: a criterion from the next study we look at too, 601 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: to judge that this criterion that's going to come up 602 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: in a minute is the idea of mutual manipulability. In 603 00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: then a horrible word, manipulability, I practice saying it before 604 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: we got going here. But it's the idea that really 605 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: if something external is part of your cognitive system, then 606 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,480 Speaker 1: your brain should be able to manipulate it, and it 607 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 1: should be able to manipulate your brain in return. So 608 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: there's a manipul relation feedback between the two. Now, I 609 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 1: wonder if that would apply to things like like these 610 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,440 Speaker 1: coconut fragments or sea shells that would be used by 611 00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 1: the octopus. Well, one more advanced but also controversial idea 612 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,759 Speaker 1: would be how would this play into the crack and 613 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: hypothesis of paleontologist Mark mcminimon of Mount Holyoke College in 614 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 1: Massachusetts to be familiar with this, No, I hadn't, I 615 00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:29,239 Speaker 1: mean not until you were you put this in here, 616 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: so tell me about it, Robert, Okay, So there hasn't 617 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,880 Speaker 1: been any recent movement on this. My understanding is that 618 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: is that he's still working on this and hopes to 619 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: publish more about it. It was it was rather controversial 620 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,600 Speaker 1: when it came out. I criticized this as being far fetched. 621 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,040 Speaker 1: But he's not a quag by any and by any extent. 622 00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: He's he's an established paleontologists here. His argument is that 623 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: you have what we have, our fossil remains of a 624 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: prehistoric cephalopod, beak, and we have a curious arrangement of 625 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: dead Ichtheosaurus is Ichtheosaurus. Of course, it's the the kind 626 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: of weird looking dolphin reptile that we discussed in a 627 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: previous episode. I believe Fossie. You're saying, like they're discovered together. 628 00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 1: You've brought a place where there's a fossil and there's 629 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: a strange arrangement of dead I theosaur fossils, and in 630 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 1: the middle of it you've got this beak right, And 631 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 1: as we discussed in our our fossil episode, fossil action scenes, 632 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: uh palion tottos have to interpret these findings and try 633 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 1: and figure out in what cases you're just looking at 634 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: a chance coupling of remains, and in which cases you're 635 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: dealing with fossil evidence of an interaction. In this case, 636 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: in this triascic cracking hypothesis, the idea is that the 637 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: bones are arranged in an unnatural pattern to resemble the 638 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: pattern of tentacle sucker discs on the the cephalopod itself. 639 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: Whoa so hold on this hypothesis is that this ancients 640 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,920 Speaker 1: affle of pod made art. Essentially, yeah, that it's an 641 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,200 Speaker 1: ancient self portrait and a glimpse into a two d 642 00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: million year old inhuman uh and arguably creative mind. Well 643 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: I love that, but I can definitely see why people 644 00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,600 Speaker 1: were very skeptical of Yeah, so don't don't take this 645 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: one to the bank. But I really do hope that 646 00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: that Mark mcmanimmon puts out another paper on this and 647 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,560 Speaker 1: offer some more some more proof and some more thoughts. 648 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,520 Speaker 1: Even if it doesn't turn out to have, you know, 649 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: any provable validity to it, I still love the idea, 650 00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: sort of an octoponymous bosh, yeah exactly. Okay, Well, I 651 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:43,160 Speaker 1: think we should take a quick break and when we 652 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:53,760 Speaker 1: come back, we will get into spiders and their cognitive webs. Alright, 653 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: we're back, okay. So I want to finish by looking 654 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,960 Speaker 1: at this one really interesting paper that was one of 655 00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 1: the centerpieces of of the article I mentioned at the 656 00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,000 Speaker 1: beginning of the episode. So I went and looked up 657 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: this paper in Animal Cognition by Hilton Yapiasu and Kevin 658 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: in Lalande. And the paper is called Extended Spider Cognition 659 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Animal Cognition, published in So this 660 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,919 Speaker 1: is new stuff and this paper was very interesting. So 661 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,520 Speaker 1: it starts with the idea of extended cognition. You've got 662 00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,399 Speaker 1: these two different models of cognition, cognition as a process 663 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,319 Speaker 1: within the central nervous system and then cognition extending out 664 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: into other parts of the body or even other features 665 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: of the environment. And the question is which of these 666 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:46,760 Speaker 1: ideas is a better system for understanding cognition in biology, 667 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: Which is better for cognitive biologists to use in their 668 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:54,240 Speaker 1: research and to avoid controversy with basic terms, the authors 669 00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: of the study except a common definition of cognition, which 670 00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:03,200 Speaker 1: is the acquisition, processing, storage, and use of information. Now, 671 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:07,080 Speaker 1: while there are these different models of cognition beyond the 672 00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: central nervous system, the authors don't really commit to any 673 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,680 Speaker 1: one of them in particular, So they're not going down 674 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,720 Speaker 1: the enacted cognition or embodied cognition path. They're just saying 675 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:20,439 Speaker 1: anything that takes place beyond the central nervous system will 676 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 1: be considered extended cognition. Um. So one of the ways 677 00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,640 Speaker 1: to get out of the realm of philosophy is to 678 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:32,120 Speaker 1: just test the extended cognition hypothesis and animals. So this 679 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 1: is what this study sets out to do, and they 680 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,479 Speaker 1: want to test it in spiders. Now, in thinking about 681 00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: where extended cognition could come from. In biology, the author's 682 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:47,719 Speaker 1: cite a cybernetics principle known as Ashby's law of requisite variety, 683 00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: and this states that if a system is going to 684 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:53,000 Speaker 1: be stable, quote, the number of states of the control 685 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: mechanism of a system must be greater than or equal 686 00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: to the number of states in the system being controlled. 687 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: Now that's really abstract language, but it actually is pretty 688 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,080 Speaker 1: simple in biology. This just means that if an organism 689 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 1: like an animal is going to be successful in a 690 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: variable environment, it needs variable behavior. It needs to itself 691 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: be able to meet all of the different circumstances that 692 00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:22,239 Speaker 1: could come up in its natural environment. Complex threat environments 693 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: demand complex behaviors, right, yeah, I mean this reminds me 694 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:30,799 Speaker 1: of some of the more cognitively advanced species. You look 695 00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,880 Speaker 1: at them and instantly thinking of birds. Uh pause, that 696 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:39,120 Speaker 1: the new Caledonian crowing to employ various strategies to to 697 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 1: to to to earn its food. Yeah. Yeah, And you 698 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: see complex cognition in the bird that has fairly complex 699 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 1: challenges to face in the wild. So, of course it's 700 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:55,239 Speaker 1: taken as a given that neural complexity usually underlies behavioral complexity. 701 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,759 Speaker 1: Right If you see an organism doing a wide variety 702 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 1: of different things instead of the same few things over 703 00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: and over again, it's usually a sign of cognitive power. Yeah, Like, 704 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: I mean, I think of a tiger, for instance, in 705 00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,880 Speaker 1: comparison to a new Caledonian crow. The Caledonian crow again 706 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 1: is having to employ various strategies to to earn that meal. 707 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:19,959 Speaker 1: The tiger has basically one strategy, and it's really good 708 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:22,800 Speaker 1: at that one strategy, but it doesn't diversify. It is 709 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,320 Speaker 1: not a generalist. Well, I wouldn't. I don't know. I 710 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,440 Speaker 1: wouldn't undersell the cognitive capabilities of a tiger. I mean, 711 00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:32,400 Speaker 1: I think compared to like a primate, a tiger is 712 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: probably pretty low on the cognitive scale, but compared to 713 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,799 Speaker 1: a lot of organisms, especially a lot of herbivorous organisms, 714 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: it's probably pretty high. I mean, one thing you do 715 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: generally see, and this comes up in the paper, is 716 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: that predators tend to be higher in cognitive capabilities than 717 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:50,319 Speaker 1: their prey. Oh. Yes, I mean I definitely put a 718 00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,480 Speaker 1: tiger above you know, a cow. I mean, clearly it 719 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: was framed by an immortal hand er. I I'm not 720 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: taken that away from it, right If it must roam 721 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,279 Speaker 1: the forest of the night, and it's got to have 722 00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: some tricks up its sleeve. But but you're right that 723 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,880 Speaker 1: it might have a more specially adapted niche than some 724 00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:12,640 Speaker 1: other animals that have to be incredibly diverse generalists. Um. 725 00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: But anyway, and with this in mind, it should be 726 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,200 Speaker 1: clear that organisms inhabiting more challenging and unstable environments, and 727 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:25,319 Speaker 1: one challenge they give is unpredictable fluctuations and resources, those 728 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:29,319 Speaker 1: types of organisms need to require more powerful brains or 729 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:33,839 Speaker 1: central nervous systems to deal with those challenges. So one 730 00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:38,160 Speaker 1: example of a hypothesis along these lines is the social 731 00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:42,080 Speaker 1: brain hypothesis. Now, Robert, I know you've encountered this before, right, Yeah. 732 00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:44,600 Speaker 1: In fact, at the World Science Festival that I just 733 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,480 Speaker 1: came back from, there was a there was an entire 734 00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:51,320 Speaker 1: panel discussion on about the social synapps, about the social 735 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: brain and and how we think it evolved, especially in 736 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,799 Speaker 1: terms of the creation of tools and then communication over 737 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,400 Speaker 1: the over the creation of tools. Oh cool, is that 738 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:03,480 Speaker 1: one of the ones they've put online? Uh? Yeah, I 739 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,960 Speaker 1: believe that one is available online. Yeah, I'd like to 740 00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: watch that. Yeah, yeah, maybe we'll revisit the topic for 741 00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,560 Speaker 1: a future episode. Well, anyway, just to give you the 742 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: quick gist here, living in groups is a complex and 743 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,920 Speaker 1: challenging environment, putting great demands on your cognition. You've got 744 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: to remember who everybody around you is, what their personalities 745 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: are like, what their status is relative to you and 746 00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: to each other. This is this is really demanding and 747 00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:32,919 Speaker 1: I mean and also as far as status goes, you've 748 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: got to figure out how you can potitionally move up. Yes. 749 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,840 Speaker 1: One of the things that came up in the social 750 00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,600 Speaker 1: synaps talk is you have examples of primates. I can't believe, 751 00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: I can't remember off hand if we're talking chimpanzees are 752 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,400 Speaker 1: macaques where you will have a female that's low in 753 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: the totem pole, so to speak, but then she has 754 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: a child, and in the social environment, the young primate 755 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,520 Speaker 1: is a means for her to rise up because all 756 00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,360 Speaker 1: the other animals want to touch it, they want to 757 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,560 Speaker 1: interact with you know, the baby is valued by by 758 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,560 Speaker 1: the group and this enabled this particular individual in the 759 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 1: study to rise up to to to near the very 760 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:11,959 Speaker 1: top of the social order. Interesting. Yeah, and the fact 761 00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: that there is always this variability and social hierarchy in 762 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,919 Speaker 1: these animals with big social groups means that that's even 763 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:22,080 Speaker 1: another like there, there's not just benefits, but there are 764 00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:24,520 Speaker 1: threats too. If somebody else can move up, you can 765 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,480 Speaker 1: be moved down the hierarchy. So you've got to constantly 766 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,800 Speaker 1: maintain all these social relationships. And this is hard work 767 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 1: for a brain. Yeah, even if you don't live in 768 00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,839 Speaker 1: a vicious working environment. Uh, your mind is still sort 769 00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:39,880 Speaker 1: of calculating, all right, where am I and what's the 770 00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:42,680 Speaker 1: status quo. So the authors state that this has been 771 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,320 Speaker 1: somewhat borne out in research into primate brains. For example, 772 00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:49,840 Speaker 1: macOS living in groups to have increases in gray matter 773 00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:54,880 Speaker 1: in mid superior temporal sulcus and in rostral prefrontal cortex. 774 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,040 Speaker 1: But of course, on the other hand, if extended cognition 775 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: is true, we should be able to find evidence of 776 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:06,080 Speaker 1: biological systems where the size and energy consumption of the 777 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:10,560 Speaker 1: central nervous system does not directly track with the cognitive 778 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 1: power of the organism. If you can think with things 779 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:17,719 Speaker 1: outside your body, you should be able to find evidence 780 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,760 Speaker 1: of organisms meeting the information processing requirements of their environments 781 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 1: or their survival niche without necessarily having the gray matter 782 00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:29,399 Speaker 1: to do so. Right, So, but I guess this brings 783 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 1: you to the question of like, why wouldn't you just 784 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:34,719 Speaker 1: invest in a bigger brain If you need more cognitive 785 00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,959 Speaker 1: processing done, why don't you just make a bigger brain 786 00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:41,600 Speaker 1: that gets more work done. Well, this isn't easy either. 787 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,960 Speaker 1: I mean, most animals live on the edge of survival 788 00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,560 Speaker 1: as far as as far as energy resources go. And 789 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: a central nervous system that does lots of computation on 790 00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: its own needs lots of processing power, which means spending 791 00:44:55,320 --> 00:45:00,239 Speaker 1: energy building that neural tissue and keeping it active and maintained. Yeah, 792 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 1: I mean there's an economy to maintain here. We see 793 00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,800 Speaker 1: time and time again and an evolution that the antlers 794 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: are only going to be as big as they need 795 00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: to be. Yeah. Otherwise that that that lineage is going 796 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,080 Speaker 1: to perish and and small antlers are going to be 797 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,759 Speaker 1: the the the adaptation that survives. Yeah. And so we 798 00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:21,760 Speaker 1: can forget about this because I don't know, as comfortable 799 00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:25,600 Speaker 1: humans like you, you might not be constantly concerned about 800 00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: survival and starvation, but most animals are living at the 801 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 1: edge of starvation. It's just right on the horizon for them. Yeah. 802 00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:35,399 Speaker 1: One of the things that came up in that world 803 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,480 Speaker 1: Science Festival panel discussion was just basic tools you see 804 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,520 Speaker 1: other hominid species where they created a basic tool, you know, 805 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:46,120 Speaker 1: like a stone implement for chipping away at things and 806 00:45:46,120 --> 00:45:49,240 Speaker 1: and and processing meat, and that tool did not change 807 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: it didn't They didn't evolve it beyond that point and 808 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:55,919 Speaker 1: it remained the same for a thousand years or more. Uh. 809 00:45:55,960 --> 00:45:58,359 Speaker 1: That's rather different than the from the ascension of tool 810 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,520 Speaker 1: us we see for the most part in human history. Right. 811 00:46:01,719 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, for the most part, evolution is I hate 812 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,200 Speaker 1: to anthromomorphize it, but evolution is is perfectly happy to 813 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: remain just at that threshold of starvation, like say, as 814 00:46:13,320 --> 00:46:17,160 Speaker 1: long as it works. So, the more cognition is limited 815 00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,479 Speaker 1: to the workings of a central nervous system, the more 816 00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,319 Speaker 1: energy is required to invest in that central nervous system. Thus, 817 00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 1: extended cognition really could be viewed as an energy efficient 818 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: shortcut for giving an organism more information processing power with 819 00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:38,160 Speaker 1: less energy investment less resources going in. Also, this is interesting, 820 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,120 Speaker 1: the authors pointed out central cognition relies very much on 821 00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: powers of perception. Cognition, if you're going to yield accurate results, 822 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: is informationally greedy. Right. Think about the resolution of our 823 00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: eyes and our hearing acuity, and how much of an 824 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:58,719 Speaker 1: organism's resources go into sampling the outside world to make 825 00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,760 Speaker 1: sure it's getting a good internal representation of its surroundings. 826 00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:06,520 Speaker 1: So to plan for a future action, you need a 827 00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:09,839 Speaker 1: representational model of the world in your head. And if 828 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: your plan is to mean anything, that model needs to 829 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:15,480 Speaker 1: be accurate, which means you need to take pictures of 830 00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,600 Speaker 1: the world around you that are information rich. And if 831 00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 1: you offload some of that same cognition into the environment, 832 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,840 Speaker 1: you might not have to do as much mental representation, 833 00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:29,160 Speaker 1: you might not require as much perceptual information. So that 834 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:31,800 Speaker 1: brings us to what type of animals are going to 835 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: be the most favored for extended cognition. Obviously all kinds 836 00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,839 Speaker 1: of animals might use it to some extent, but which 837 00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,120 Speaker 1: ones are going to really go hard and on extended cognition? 838 00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:46,000 Speaker 1: If this is a fact of biology, the author's hypothesized 839 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,560 Speaker 1: that the evolution of extended cognition should be especially favored 840 00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:55,040 Speaker 1: among small generalist predators. Now why is that, Well, first 841 00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,520 Speaker 1: you've got the small creatures. There's there's general what's known 842 00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:02,279 Speaker 1: as alimentary between brain size and body size, and that 843 00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:05,440 Speaker 1: means they track one another um, the bigger your body, 844 00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:08,040 Speaker 1: the bigger your brain. And one take away from this 845 00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:10,960 Speaker 1: is that if you want a more powerful brain, it's 846 00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,480 Speaker 1: much easier if you're a larger animal. Especially tiny animals 847 00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:20,040 Speaker 1: are going to have real difficulty recruiting sufficient information processing 848 00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:23,920 Speaker 1: power within the small collections of central nervous tissue that 849 00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 1: their tiny bodies will support. The smaller you are, the 850 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:32,439 Speaker 1: harder it is to energetically justify complex cognition within your 851 00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: economy of survival. Yeah, because, as we said, cognition is 852 00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:39,960 Speaker 1: already pricey, right, uh So, so if you're small, you 853 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,400 Speaker 1: might be really looking for a way to offload some 854 00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:46,959 Speaker 1: of that cognitive capacity into your environment, into other parts 855 00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,520 Speaker 1: of your body or in any of these extended areas. Now, 856 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,279 Speaker 1: the next thing is predators. Why would predators especially need this, Well, 857 00:48:54,360 --> 00:49:00,839 Speaker 1: predators generally need more information and processing power than other organisms. Why. 858 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:03,920 Speaker 1: It's that they quote tend to be large and mobile 859 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:07,799 Speaker 1: so as to track diverse, changeable, and spatially distinct prey 860 00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: distributions and thus require the information processing capability to detect 861 00:49:13,239 --> 00:49:16,880 Speaker 1: and respond to changes in these distributions. And this is 862 00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,880 Speaker 1: supported by observing that in mammals, predators tend to have 863 00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,839 Speaker 1: larger brains. You can also see this even in some 864 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:26,359 Speaker 1: fishes like teleost fishes. Fish higher up the food chain 865 00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:30,240 Speaker 1: have bigger brains. You need them because of the work 866 00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:32,960 Speaker 1: you've got to do to survive. So you've got small 867 00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,839 Speaker 1: you've got predators. The other thing was general predators. Generalists 868 00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,360 Speaker 1: are animals that specialize in more than one particular environmental 869 00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,840 Speaker 1: niche they deal with more variability. Uh. The more general 870 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:48,319 Speaker 1: and animals foraging landscape, the more variability it needs to 871 00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:51,040 Speaker 1: deal with, and thus the more processing power it needs. 872 00:49:51,600 --> 00:49:53,920 Speaker 1: And uh, the one this is not a pure predator 873 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,520 Speaker 1: by any means that I always think of the raccoon, Like, 874 00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:58,920 Speaker 1: the raccoon is a is a pretty intelligent little critter 875 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:01,840 Speaker 1: because because it is that it is such a generalist, 876 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:05,080 Speaker 1: it is ranging, you know, a pretty far and wide 877 00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:09,760 Speaker 1: and within its its environmental ranging ground to to acquire 878 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,360 Speaker 1: its food. Yeah, and you can really see raccoons getting 879 00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,239 Speaker 1: pretty crafty, yeah with your garbage. I mean yeah, I 880 00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:21,160 Speaker 1: even helping each other at times. I've I haven't read 881 00:50:21,160 --> 00:50:23,480 Speaker 1: a study about this, but I've heard accounts of of 882 00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:28,000 Speaker 1: raccoons they standing upon each other's shoulders to achieve some 883 00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,640 Speaker 1: sort of a goal such as drinking the nectar from 884 00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,080 Speaker 1: a hummingbird feeder, or to get the garbage can lid 885 00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: off anyway. So this leads them to their main hypothesis 886 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:42,000 Speaker 1: and the subject of of the study portion of their 887 00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:45,799 Speaker 1: literature reviews. So the authors say, quote, these considerations lead 888 00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:49,520 Speaker 1: us to expect, other things being equal, that predators of 889 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:54,360 Speaker 1: a relatively small size with generalist habits are prime candidates 890 00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: for extended cognition because they should be under particularly strong 891 00:50:58,160 --> 00:51:03,120 Speaker 1: selection to reduce their relative brain size but maintain their 892 00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,560 Speaker 1: behavioral richness. And one means by which this could be 893 00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:10,000 Speaker 1: achieved just through offloading brain processing to the body or 894 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:16,040 Speaker 1: the environment. So who's a good candidate for meeting this spiders? Yes, 895 00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,440 Speaker 1: because spiders have been at it for a long time. 896 00:51:19,719 --> 00:51:22,920 Speaker 1: They have been there. There's some pretty old predators, pretty 897 00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:27,520 Speaker 1: successful predators found on every continent except Antarctica. They've been 898 00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:30,279 Speaker 1: on Earth for some four hundred million years, and while 899 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,480 Speaker 1: the number keeps going up, I believe the most recent 900 00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:37,520 Speaker 1: species count was an excess of forty five thousand spider species. Now, 901 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,040 Speaker 1: we've covered aspects of spider anatomy and behavior on the 902 00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 1: show over the years. What was the most recent one. 903 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,560 Speaker 1: We we did one on we did what it would 904 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 1: be like to get eaten by a Giant Spider. We 905 00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:52,319 Speaker 1: did that last October for our Halloween season because with 906 00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:55,040 Speaker 1: the giant spider movies they always cut away right before 907 00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:56,920 Speaker 1: the spider gets to the part where it eats you, 908 00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:58,680 Speaker 1: and we were like, well, what would that look like? 909 00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,280 Speaker 1: Does it stick the fangs in and drain your blood 910 00:52:01,320 --> 00:52:06,000 Speaker 1: like a vampire? And the answer spoiler alert, No, They 911 00:52:06,040 --> 00:52:09,239 Speaker 1: mostly like drool all over you and inject you with 912 00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:12,759 Speaker 1: with dissolving enzymes and turn you into mush and then 913 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:15,440 Speaker 1: they turn you into bull list and we'll just go 914 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,120 Speaker 1: listen to the episode. Yeah, now I think everyone knows 915 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,280 Speaker 1: what a spider is. The basics are eight legs, venomon 916 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,680 Speaker 1: things spinnerets that produce highly specialized strands of silk. Some 917 00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:28,480 Speaker 1: spiders use these to hunt or maneuver in their environments, 918 00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:31,879 Speaker 1: but a great many of them build traps webs, and 919 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,720 Speaker 1: there are several types of webs. You have uh triangle webs, 920 00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:39,560 Speaker 1: funnel webs and mesh webs, cobwebs, sheet webs, and of 921 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:45,480 Speaker 1: course traditional orb webs. Some three thousand plus species of 922 00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:48,520 Speaker 1: orbs spiders exist in the orb part. It's easy to 923 00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:50,239 Speaker 1: kind of get tripped up of this and imagine a 924 00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,480 Speaker 1: three dimensional orb. But basically we're talking about a circular web, 925 00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,160 Speaker 1: the classic spider web, the sort of thing that you 926 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,600 Speaker 1: see in a giant spider movie, a haunted house, or 927 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,799 Speaker 1: a burlesque show. It's the round spider web. And these 928 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,879 Speaker 1: are incredible structures, engineered down to minute weaving in each 929 00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:10,440 Speaker 1: specialized strand. I always stress that a spider webbing is 930 00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:14,560 Speaker 1: not a silly string scenario. They are they're true weavers. 931 00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,640 Speaker 1: They're manipulating the substance of the silk strands and the 932 00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:20,239 Speaker 1: manner by which they're woven together. And this is just 933 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,680 Speaker 1: into the line they're using, because they're then using that 934 00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:28,040 Speaker 1: spider silk line, which is strong and flexible. Uh, some 935 00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:31,399 Speaker 1: varieties are five times as strong as an equal mass 936 00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:33,680 Speaker 1: of steel and twice as strong as an equal mass 937 00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,640 Speaker 1: of kevlar. They're using that then to create this web structure. 938 00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:40,520 Speaker 1: And the web structure itself is far more than just 939 00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,440 Speaker 1: a sticky trap, because we see that in the movies, 940 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:48,160 Speaker 1: the monster movies, the damsel is caught in against the web. 941 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:50,800 Speaker 1: Usually like generally it just looks like she's leaning against 942 00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,520 Speaker 1: some rope web and then the big spider puppet comes. 943 00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,160 Speaker 1: But it's it's far more than that for starters. It's 944 00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,439 Speaker 1: a killing room, it's a killing floor. It's the home 945 00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:03,600 Speaker 1: turf uh for the predator uh. And it provides the 946 00:54:03,600 --> 00:54:07,560 Speaker 1: predator with a strong advantage over appropriately sized prey that 947 00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:11,200 Speaker 1: tumble into the web. And it's also a communication array. 948 00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:14,520 Speaker 1: You land on the webbing and the spider knows, now 949 00:54:14,600 --> 00:54:17,120 Speaker 1: this is going to be important. Yeah, that you land 950 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:18,960 Speaker 1: on that web, but you fall into that web. The 951 00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:22,520 Speaker 1: spider knows, the spider feels. And it's no great leap 952 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: to say that the orb spider web is a vital 953 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,279 Speaker 1: extension of the creature that built it and occupies it 954 00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,680 Speaker 1: waiting for the signals of the snared prey. Right. So, 955 00:54:32,280 --> 00:54:34,799 Speaker 1: the prediction that these authors given their paper is that 956 00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:39,080 Speaker 1: because spiders have the cognitive needs of generalist predators but 957 00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:43,040 Speaker 1: the neural limitations of tiny organisms, the authors think that 958 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:47,560 Speaker 1: spiders should show signs of evolution favoring extended cognition if 959 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,560 Speaker 1: such a thing as possible. And the special feature of 960 00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:53,600 Speaker 1: spider biology they're gonna look to is those webs, that 961 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,959 Speaker 1: amazing silk, those threads. So we definitely used to think 962 00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,520 Speaker 1: of spiders as purely insta driven stimulus response machines with 963 00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:06,000 Speaker 1: no real cognitive capacity, but that isn't the case anymore. 964 00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:10,640 Speaker 1: Spider research has yielded a lot of interesting signs of cognition, 965 00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,000 Speaker 1: allowing them to learn new things. So some examples given 966 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,000 Speaker 1: by the authors or that, for example, spiders appear to 967 00:55:17,160 --> 00:55:21,520 Speaker 1: plan routes of movement in advance, like there are these 968 00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:26,000 Speaker 1: cannibal jumping spiders that prey on orb weavers and uh. 969 00:55:26,160 --> 00:55:28,680 Speaker 1: When they prey on orb weavers, they'll watch them from 970 00:55:28,719 --> 00:55:31,920 Speaker 1: a distance first, then plan a route of approach that 971 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,800 Speaker 1: loses sight of the prey animal en route, then drops 972 00:55:35,840 --> 00:55:38,239 Speaker 1: down from above to attack the orb weaver at the 973 00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,600 Speaker 1: hub of its web. There are signs that they actually 974 00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:46,040 Speaker 1: have the capability to display numerosity, like they can understand 975 00:55:46,160 --> 00:55:51,800 Speaker 1: some number distinctions, that they learn conditional tactics of aggressive mimicry. 976 00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,920 Speaker 1: In One example of this would be the these cannibalistic 977 00:55:55,000 --> 00:55:58,799 Speaker 1: jumping spiders. Again, they prey on orb weavers, uh, and 978 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:00,640 Speaker 1: what they will do is they'll go up to the 979 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:05,160 Speaker 1: edge of the web and generate false vibratory signals to 980 00:56:05,280 --> 00:56:08,920 Speaker 1: manipulate the behavior of their prey, so they learn what 981 00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:12,719 Speaker 1: signals to use for a particular spider by trial and 982 00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:14,920 Speaker 1: error to get the spider to come out to a 983 00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,560 Speaker 1: place where it can be attacked. There's at least one 984 00:56:17,640 --> 00:56:20,640 Speaker 1: variety of I believe it's an orb spider that will 985 00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:24,799 Speaker 1: essentially build a decoy of itself in the web. Oh yeah, 986 00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:27,520 Speaker 1: I think I've heard of that. But the authors also 987 00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:31,680 Speaker 1: say that they can generally like they can unlearn imprinted associations, 988 00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:35,440 Speaker 1: and they can generally display adaptability to changing conditions. So 989 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:40,360 Speaker 1: they're not mere machines repeating a program. No, spiders appear 990 00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:44,759 Speaker 1: to have some real cognitive capacity that they can that 991 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,759 Speaker 1: they can plan, that they can essentially think. Now, obviously 992 00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,040 Speaker 1: they're thinking is not going to be exactly the same 993 00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,000 Speaker 1: kind of thinking that you would identify with like a mammal, 994 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:58,960 Speaker 1: like a primate, But they are spider philosophers. No, they 995 00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:03,320 Speaker 1: are doing some kind end of complex information processing. Now, 996 00:57:03,520 --> 00:57:07,120 Speaker 1: the experimental method that these researchers apply in their paper 997 00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,799 Speaker 1: is that this is a literature review, so they're not 998 00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,560 Speaker 1: doing direct new research or experiments in this they're reviewing 999 00:57:13,600 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: a lot of the existing spider research and what they're 1000 00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:19,560 Speaker 1: trying to look for to see if something can count 1001 00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:24,920 Speaker 1: as cognition is something I mentioned earlier, the mutual manipulability criterion. 1002 00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,479 Speaker 1: They explain this by saying, quote, two entities that can 1003 00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,840 Speaker 1: reciprocally alter the state of each other pertain to one 1004 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,520 Speaker 1: and the same system. Does that make sense? So if 1005 00:57:35,560 --> 00:57:40,560 Speaker 1: if the external object and the spider's brain can both 1006 00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:45,040 Speaker 1: change each other reciprocally, then you might consider this a 1007 00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:50,000 Speaker 1: mutually manipulable system. So a couple of cases they look 1008 00:57:50,000 --> 00:57:53,960 Speaker 1: out of the paper. One is how attention is managed 1009 00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:57,479 Speaker 1: by web threads. So Robert, imagine you are a web 1010 00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:02,080 Speaker 1: spinning spider. You want information and about your environment. Is 1011 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:05,440 Speaker 1: there something walking on my web? Is it something I 1012 00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:08,640 Speaker 1: could eat or something that could eat me? But you've 1013 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,600 Speaker 1: got these neural limitations. You've got a tiny, tiny brain, 1014 00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:16,840 Speaker 1: So how do you selectively apply your limited cognitive resources 1015 00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:20,440 Speaker 1: to get the best info about what's going on around you? 1016 00:58:21,600 --> 00:58:25,040 Speaker 1: What if you use your web itself? That's right, I 1017 00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:29,840 Speaker 1: mean I'm depending on the web for the sensations anyway. Yeah, 1018 00:58:30,080 --> 00:58:33,240 Speaker 1: but you're not just statically using the web. So it 1019 00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,440 Speaker 1: would be one thing if you felt vibrations in the 1020 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:39,800 Speaker 1: web and that told you something about your environment. That 1021 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,360 Speaker 1: would be just kind of like, you know, seeing the 1022 00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:45,040 Speaker 1: light reflecting off of something coming towards you. That'd just 1023 00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:48,360 Speaker 1: be sensing something from your environment. But the spiders don't 1024 00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,040 Speaker 1: just have their brains manipulated by info from the web. 1025 00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:56,320 Speaker 1: They manipulate the web in return to to fine tune 1026 00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:00,680 Speaker 1: their attentional systems. So web building spiders, for example, have 1027 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:05,520 Speaker 1: been shown to use web tension as an attentional mechanism. 1028 00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:08,280 Speaker 1: And the same way we would focus our eyes on 1029 00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:11,280 Speaker 1: a particular site if we wanted to pay attention to it, 1030 00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:15,280 Speaker 1: they can pull certain web threads tight to focus a 1031 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:20,240 Speaker 1: vibrational attention on those areas of their webs. Okay, I 1032 00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,000 Speaker 1: mean very very much like tightening the strings on a 1033 00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:25,919 Speaker 1: guitar exactly. Yeah, And so it works. When you pull 1034 00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:30,520 Speaker 1: the threads tight, you increase the resolution of the information 1035 00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:32,800 Speaker 1: that you get through them. It's like focusing with a 1036 00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:37,800 Speaker 1: telescope on something. And when researchers artificially tense one part 1037 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:41,440 Speaker 1: of a web, spiders are more attentive to that region 1038 00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:45,200 Speaker 1: of the web, and hungrier spiders will adapt. For example, 1039 00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:47,640 Speaker 1: normally you might have a fruit fly land in the 1040 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,800 Speaker 1: spider web, and the spider doesn't even care because there's 1041 00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,640 Speaker 1: so little nutrition in it. Why does it even bother. 1042 00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:55,800 Speaker 1: It's so tiny, right, and it's not gonna it's not 1043 00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:59,160 Speaker 1: gonna damage the web. Right. But if a spider is 1044 00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:01,720 Speaker 1: a very hungry, if it's on the verge of starvation, 1045 01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:04,880 Speaker 1: it will pull the threads of its web tighter to 1046 01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:10,040 Speaker 1: sense higher resolution information, including smaller insects landing on it, 1047 01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,600 Speaker 1: like fruit flies. So if it's starving, a fruit fly 1048 01:00:13,760 --> 01:00:16,320 Speaker 1: lands on the web, it's got the threads pulled tight, 1049 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:19,280 Speaker 1: so it can sense tiny stuff like fruit flies, and 1050 01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:21,840 Speaker 1: it will go out and eat that meager meal because 1051 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:26,480 Speaker 1: it's starving. Now, when experiment or selectively placed prey on 1052 01:00:26,680 --> 01:00:31,760 Speaker 1: horizontal threads in a web, spiders learn to favor horizontal tension. 1053 01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:35,760 Speaker 1: That's an interesting thing too. So it looks like you're 1054 01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:41,120 Speaker 1: seeing this reciprocal causation here, mutual manipulability. The web changes 1055 01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,400 Speaker 1: the spider's brain, but the spider's brain also changes how 1056 01:00:44,440 --> 01:00:47,280 Speaker 1: it uses the web. It can pull the threads taught, 1057 01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:49,880 Speaker 1: or it can relax them, and it can adapt to 1058 01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:53,320 Speaker 1: the needs of the spider at the general time it's 1059 01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:56,920 Speaker 1: occupying the web. But there there's another interesting thing about 1060 01:00:56,920 --> 01:01:00,280 Speaker 1: what they do with webs, uh their web building algorithm them. 1061 01:01:00,760 --> 01:01:04,480 Speaker 1: So spiders appear to use the structures of their own 1062 01:01:04,520 --> 01:01:09,160 Speaker 1: webs to offload some of the cognitive requirements of web building. 1063 01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:11,800 Speaker 1: Think about how you build a house. When you build 1064 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:14,560 Speaker 1: a house, you have to use a lot of cognition. 1065 01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,360 Speaker 1: You've got to measure the space available to you. You've 1066 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,720 Speaker 1: got to plan out the size of walls and rooms. 1067 01:01:19,760 --> 01:01:22,439 Speaker 1: You've got to keep everything within your budget, and make 1068 01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:24,280 Speaker 1: sure all the math works out, and make sure you've 1069 01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:28,880 Speaker 1: got all the resources. Spiders build complex structures like webs 1070 01:01:28,920 --> 01:01:32,600 Speaker 1: with tiny brains. How do they do it? The answer 1071 01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,600 Speaker 1: is algorithmically using the web itself to store information about 1072 01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:41,160 Speaker 1: the building process. So instead of constantly having to keep 1073 01:01:41,240 --> 01:01:44,919 Speaker 1: all aspects of web construction and working memory, they can 1074 01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:49,240 Speaker 1: start building a web and work from simple algorithmic rules 1075 01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:53,440 Speaker 1: based on their sensory apprehension of the web characteristics that 1076 01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:59,080 Speaker 1: already exist. So web construction is also judged by the 1077 01:01:59,080 --> 01:02:03,920 Speaker 1: researchers to be mutually manipulable. Changes in the web during construction. 1078 01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:06,080 Speaker 1: For example, if you go in while a spider's building 1079 01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:10,400 Speaker 1: a web and clip certain threads. This change the behavior 1080 01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:13,720 Speaker 1: of the spider. This changes the spiders thought processes about 1081 01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:18,440 Speaker 1: how it's building because it affects this algorithm, but changes 1082 01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,120 Speaker 1: to the behavior of the spider, changes to the spider's 1083 01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:24,760 Speaker 1: brain rather also change the construction process. Robert, I bet 1084 01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:27,080 Speaker 1: you've seen this classic example of what happens when you 1085 01:02:27,120 --> 01:02:30,080 Speaker 1: give spiders drugs and try them to build webs. So 1086 01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:33,040 Speaker 1: you give a spider LSD or caffeine. I think the 1087 01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,760 Speaker 1: caffeine web was like the worst web, but all these 1088 01:02:36,840 --> 01:02:39,720 Speaker 1: various drugs, and it changes their algorithm for how they 1089 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:43,240 Speaker 1: build the web. But also this occurs in their natural habitats. 1090 01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:47,760 Speaker 1: Spiders build different kinds of webs based on changing environmental needs. 1091 01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:50,400 Speaker 1: The example that comes to mind hears of, of course, 1092 01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:53,480 Speaker 1: when we've taken spiders into space. Yeah, and observe their 1093 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:57,440 Speaker 1: attempts to to build webs there. Yeah, exactly. Here's one 1094 01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,720 Speaker 1: more example from the paper that I thought was really 1095 01:02:59,720 --> 01:03:04,040 Speaker 1: into thing. What about spatial memory substitution. So we exist 1096 01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,040 Speaker 1: in the world that's got three spatial dimensions, and it 1097 01:03:07,080 --> 01:03:09,640 Speaker 1: can be rough trying to build models of that world 1098 01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,360 Speaker 1: and represent it correctly. Your spatial memory is probably not 1099 01:03:13,400 --> 01:03:15,080 Speaker 1: as good as you think it is. And if you 1100 01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:18,480 Speaker 1: want to be shocked, here's an experiment. Draw a picture 1101 01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:22,240 Speaker 1: of a room that you go in frequently, indicating where 1102 01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:24,800 Speaker 1: you think all the objects in the room are and 1103 01:03:24,840 --> 01:03:28,680 Speaker 1: how far apart from each other they are. Now, go 1104 01:03:28,840 --> 01:03:31,640 Speaker 1: check your drawing against reality. I think you're probably going 1105 01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:34,800 Speaker 1: to be surprised how much you get wrong. All right, 1106 01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:37,080 Speaker 1: that would be an interesting exercise. I'm very tempted to 1107 01:03:37,120 --> 01:03:39,840 Speaker 1: go with like the smallest room in my house, like 1108 01:03:39,440 --> 01:03:43,320 Speaker 1: a like a secondary bathroom. Uh, just sort of limit 1109 01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:45,960 Speaker 1: the scope of the exercise. But even then, Yeah, I'm 1110 01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,320 Speaker 1: betting I'm gonna get I'm gonna get my measurements wrong. 1111 01:03:48,640 --> 01:03:51,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you'll probably get the general gist of the room, right, 1112 01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:55,320 Speaker 1: you'll know the main things in it, basically what shape 1113 01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:59,120 Speaker 1: it is, But where exactly the corners or position in 1114 01:03:59,200 --> 01:04:02,280 Speaker 1: relation to each each other, Where exactly the pieces of furniture, 1115 01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:04,400 Speaker 1: how far apart they are? I think you're going to 1116 01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:08,560 Speaker 1: get stuff like that wrong. But spiders can use silk 1117 01:04:08,600 --> 01:04:11,840 Speaker 1: a drag line to reduce a three D spatial environment 1118 01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,840 Speaker 1: to a one D spatial environment, So that that might 1119 01:04:15,880 --> 01:04:17,400 Speaker 1: sound kind of weird, but think about it like this. 1120 01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:20,600 Speaker 1: You're an orb weaving spider and you get threatened in 1121 01:04:20,640 --> 01:04:23,120 Speaker 1: your web. Maybe some kid comes along and says, oh, 1122 01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,920 Speaker 1: cool spider, I want to squish it. It can drop 1123 01:04:26,000 --> 01:04:29,040 Speaker 1: out of the web and hide among leaves. Say, but 1124 01:04:29,320 --> 01:04:32,200 Speaker 1: it leaves a trail of drag line silk when it goes, 1125 01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:34,960 Speaker 1: which it can later follow back to the web, And 1126 01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,680 Speaker 1: this totally shortcuts the cognition that would be devoted to 1127 01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:42,280 Speaker 1: three D modeling of the world for spatial navigation. If 1128 01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:45,360 Speaker 1: you just have to follow the drag line silk back 1129 01:04:45,400 --> 01:04:48,520 Speaker 1: to the web, you have reduced navigation to a one 1130 01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:53,720 Speaker 1: dimensional activity, totally short circuiting all that need for cognitive navigation. 1131 01:04:54,520 --> 01:04:56,440 Speaker 1: Now there are other There are plenty of things that 1132 01:04:56,600 --> 01:05:00,960 Speaker 1: don't fit the criteria of mutual manipul ability, so they 1133 01:05:01,000 --> 01:05:04,560 Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be considered extended cognition. One thing would be 1134 01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:07,400 Speaker 1: something they looked at called matched filters. This is basically 1135 01:05:07,440 --> 01:05:11,840 Speaker 1: the it's sensory filters. They provide adaptive information, but the 1136 01:05:11,880 --> 01:05:15,840 Speaker 1: spider must simply accept the information they provide. The filters 1137 01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:21,120 Speaker 1: themselves can't be manipulated for cognitive feedback. So uh. The 1138 01:05:21,160 --> 01:05:24,520 Speaker 1: conclusion they come to is that web threads and structures 1139 01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:28,160 Speaker 1: are part of a spider's information processing system, and that 1140 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,600 Speaker 1: spiders use their webs to think. The cognition of a 1141 01:05:31,640 --> 01:05:35,320 Speaker 1: spider isn't just in the spiders central nervous system, but 1142 01:05:35,400 --> 01:05:39,160 Speaker 1: it's thinking partially with its central nervous system and partially 1143 01:05:39,280 --> 01:05:42,760 Speaker 1: with its web. Yeah, I mean, I mean it makes 1144 01:05:42,760 --> 01:05:44,680 Speaker 1: sense again when you when you think of the web 1145 01:05:44,760 --> 01:05:48,000 Speaker 1: as not just this thing it builds, but this thing 1146 01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:51,840 Speaker 1: that it inhabits, this this in this artificial environment that 1147 01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:56,040 Speaker 1: it has evolved to create, that is that is tailored 1148 01:05:56,040 --> 01:05:59,479 Speaker 1: to its needs that it manipulates in order to help 1149 01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,160 Speaker 1: sneer its ray. Yeah. Resource wise, it's a two for 1150 01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:05,280 Speaker 1: one deal. You would need the web anyway to kill 1151 01:06:05,320 --> 01:06:08,720 Speaker 1: and eat, so why not use it for cognition? Yeah? 1152 01:06:08,880 --> 01:06:12,440 Speaker 1: And and as we we've we've shown the evolution is 1153 01:06:12,480 --> 01:06:14,920 Speaker 1: an economist. It has to. It's it's not going to 1154 01:06:15,000 --> 01:06:18,240 Speaker 1: spend any more any any more cash on the project 1155 01:06:18,240 --> 01:06:20,600 Speaker 1: than it has to. Therefore, make use of the web 1156 01:06:20,640 --> 01:06:23,680 Speaker 1: it's setting there. Let's let's let's let's use it to 1157 01:06:24,240 --> 01:06:26,680 Speaker 1: enhance our cognition. In fact, the authors of the paper 1158 01:06:26,720 --> 01:06:29,040 Speaker 1: observe something about this. They say, quote, it may be 1159 01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:33,760 Speaker 1: no coincidence that some of the most cognitively sophisticated invertebrates, 1160 01:06:33,760 --> 01:06:36,880 Speaker 1: and they give the example of social bees, wasps, and 1161 01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:42,840 Speaker 1: ants are renowned for their niche construction e g. Nest building. Thus, 1162 01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,680 Speaker 1: we have a double prediction that miniaturization will select for 1163 01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:51,600 Speaker 1: extended cognition and that niche construction will facilitate the process 1164 01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:56,800 Speaker 1: of outsourcing information processing. So animals like this, they tend 1165 01:06:56,880 --> 01:07:01,200 Speaker 1: to build niches. But these niches, in turn, the animals 1166 01:07:01,240 --> 01:07:07,640 Speaker 1: find a way to use them to offload some cognitive processing. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, 1167 01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:11,200 Speaker 1: I'm instantly thinking about about bees and wasps and termites 1168 01:07:11,240 --> 01:07:14,720 Speaker 1: other social insects and trying to to work out how 1169 01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:17,720 Speaker 1: they would be manipulating this as well. I don't know. Listen, 1170 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:19,680 Speaker 1: maybe we'll come back to it in the future. Yeah, 1171 01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:23,360 Speaker 1: we got anything else for Robert? I don't know. I guess. 1172 01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,160 Speaker 1: I mean we can come back to Kran and say, well, 1173 01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:28,240 Speaker 1: what what does this tell us about Crank? I don't know. 1174 01:07:28,280 --> 01:07:32,480 Speaker 1: Would you consider Krang's human suit not human suit, it's 1175 01:07:32,520 --> 01:07:36,040 Speaker 1: android suit, the guy with the suspenders? Would you consider 1176 01:07:36,160 --> 01:07:41,439 Speaker 1: that his relationship with Krang mutually manipulable? I have I'm 1177 01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:43,480 Speaker 1: I tend to. I mean, I don't I'm I don't 1178 01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,200 Speaker 1: have a lot of like hard geek knowledge about about 1179 01:07:46,200 --> 01:07:48,040 Speaker 1: teenage meeting ninja turtles. I don't know to what extent 1180 01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,720 Speaker 1: this has been fleshed out within the franchise over the years. 1181 01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,840 Speaker 1: But but yeah, I mean, he's he's in this this 1182 01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:57,040 Speaker 1: suit he's in he's fighting ninja turtles with it, like 1183 01:07:57,080 --> 01:08:01,640 Speaker 1: he's grappling turtles, He's climbing on stuff, he's blasting things 1184 01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:04,560 Speaker 1: like it seems to be a vital way in which, 1185 01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:06,600 Speaker 1: especially in the cartoon series, is a vital way in 1186 01:08:06,600 --> 01:08:09,120 Speaker 1: which he interacts with the world. And that's a true 1187 01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:11,480 Speaker 1: interaction with the with with the with with the going 1188 01:08:11,520 --> 01:08:14,960 Speaker 1: both ways. He punches them, they punch him back. Is 1189 01:08:15,000 --> 01:08:18,880 Speaker 1: a crying without a body really a crying? I guess 1190 01:08:18,920 --> 01:08:20,680 Speaker 1: it's a different type of crying. Like it kind of 1191 01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:24,599 Speaker 1: comes back to uh to. It's how it's processing numbers. 1192 01:08:25,000 --> 01:08:27,879 Speaker 1: Is the process numbers differently with it with an android 1193 01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:32,960 Speaker 1: hands in front of it versus just its two tentacles. Yeah, 1194 01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:36,080 Speaker 1: that's a good question. Yeah. And then in terms of 1195 01:08:36,080 --> 01:08:39,720 Speaker 1: the simple Walker device that that makes me think about 1196 01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,800 Speaker 1: humans and automobiles. We had an off Mike discussion on 1197 01:08:43,840 --> 01:08:48,160 Speaker 1: this earlier. To what extent could you possibly make an argument, uh, 1198 01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:51,840 Speaker 1: for some sort of extended cognition occurring for the driver 1199 01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:56,800 Speaker 1: of a modern automobile. Yeah, I mean that's a good question. Uh, 1200 01:08:56,840 --> 01:08:59,559 Speaker 1: I I don't know. I mean what once you start 1201 01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:03,759 Speaker 1: building in other things like a GPS device, that's obviously 1202 01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:08,519 Speaker 1: something that you're offloading some cognitive capacity to. But there's 1203 01:09:08,880 --> 01:09:12,640 Speaker 1: probably genuinely a question about to what extent you mutually 1204 01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:16,920 Speaker 1: manipulate the GPS device in return. I don't know. That's 1205 01:09:16,960 --> 01:09:19,519 Speaker 1: a case where the answer might be maybe you need 1206 01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:21,479 Speaker 1: to think more about it. That would be something to 1207 01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:23,840 Speaker 1: potentially come back and explore in the future because it 1208 01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:26,559 Speaker 1: does get into this this basically it comes down to 1209 01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:29,400 Speaker 1: the relationship we have with our smartphones and how that 1210 01:09:29,560 --> 01:09:33,280 Speaker 1: is changing us from a cognitive perspective. Yeah, we're totally adapting. 1211 01:09:33,280 --> 01:09:35,559 Speaker 1: We're learning that we don't need to remember stuff anymore. 1212 01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:40,439 Speaker 1: We can look it up man, right, New World All right? 1213 01:09:40,720 --> 01:09:47,040 Speaker 1: So there you have it, um praying spiders, octopuses, smartphones. Uh. 1214 01:09:47,360 --> 01:09:49,640 Speaker 1: You can definitely check out the landing page for this 1215 01:09:49,680 --> 01:09:52,040 Speaker 1: episode is Stuff to Blow your Mind dot Com. I'll 1216 01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:54,960 Speaker 1: try to remember to include a link to that Atlantic 1217 01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:56,760 Speaker 1: paper on there, so that you can know you can 1218 01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:59,720 Speaker 1: read it if you wish, and uh hey, that's also 1219 01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,559 Speaker 1: where you find all the other podcast episodes, videos, blog 1220 01:10:02,640 --> 01:10:05,320 Speaker 1: post links out to our various social media accounts, and 1221 01:10:05,360 --> 01:10:07,000 Speaker 1: if you want to get in touch with this directly, 1222 01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:09,800 Speaker 1: you can email us as always at blow the Mind 1223 01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:22,280 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. For more on this 1224 01:10:22,479 --> 01:10:25,000 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is it how stuff works 1225 01:10:25,000 --> 01:10:48,240 Speaker 1: dot com