1 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,880 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how Stuff 2 00:00:06,880 --> 00:00:14,840 Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: Kristen and I'm Caroline and Caroline. AP is Administrative Professionals 4 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Day formerly known as Secretary's Day, and that celebration, along 5 00:00:27,480 --> 00:00:32,200 Speaker 1: with the fact that administrative assistant slash secretary is still 6 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: the most common job for women in the United States, 7 00:00:35,159 --> 00:00:39,280 Speaker 1: is the reason why we wanted to do this podcast 8 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: on secretarial work in the history of the secretaries, how 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: women took over clerical work from men. Yeah, it does 10 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: go beyond Madman Kristen, if you can believe it. It 11 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: actually does have a very interesting evolution as far as 12 00:00:56,040 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: why secretary jobs became so important in the first place, 13 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: and those origins lie in the Industrial Revolution. Yes, um, 14 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: but should we offer first a snapshot of what secretarial 15 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 1: work looks like today? Yeah. The two thousand ten media 16 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: and pay for a secretary is just under thirty five 17 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,000 Speaker 1: thousand dollars, which is roughly sixteen dollars and sixties six 18 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,280 Speaker 1: cents to just pull that out of your head. I 19 00:01:24,319 --> 00:01:26,840 Speaker 1: did not. This is from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, 20 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: but that's sixteen and sixty six cents per hour. And 21 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 1: the qualifications are usually a high school diploma and basic 22 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:39,360 Speaker 1: office and computing skills. The job outlook is decent twelve 23 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: percent projected growth for any uh job walks out there 24 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: who were curious, which is about on average. And like 25 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:50,919 Speaker 1: I said, it's still the most common job for women. 26 00:01:50,960 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: And that made headlines a lot of headlines actually when 27 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: those numbers came out not too long ago, because people 28 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: were shocked that secretary is still the number one job. Yeah. 29 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,480 Speaker 1: According to CNN talking about this, between two thousand and 30 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 1: six of people who call themselves secretaries and administrative assistants 31 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: were women. That's that's most of them. Yeah, in case 32 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: you didn't know. Well. And the thing about secretarial work 33 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: that will talk about as well is that even though 34 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: it's a solid job sector and is pretty important, the 35 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: inspecter has never been raised. We we still kind of 36 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 1: think of it. No One was happy to hear that 37 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: women still fill of secretarial jobs because I think there 38 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 1: is a stereotype that goes along with it, that is 39 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: that it's kind of demeaning work. Right. Well, there's still 40 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: I mean, there's still the perception also that you don't 41 00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 1: do much as an administrative assistant. Um Lynn Peril, who 42 00:02:58,840 --> 00:03:01,440 Speaker 1: we will cite a lot in this episode. She wrote 43 00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: Swimming in the Steno Pool, a retro guide to making 44 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: it in the office, write an opinion piece for The 45 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: New York Times in ap she kind of goes back 46 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: to when people in the you know, fifties sixties thought that, 47 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 1: oh man, we are going to have all these amazing 48 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: technological developments and secretaries won't even have to come in 49 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,680 Speaker 1: for most of the day, like computers, electronic computers will 50 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: solve all of our problems. And she points out there's 51 00:03:26,080 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: one little sticking point that no matter how much technology 52 00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 1: we develop, administrative assistance are really office assistance of any 53 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: kind are still expected to fetch the coffee. That's still 54 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: such a sticking point in so many offices. And she 55 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: cites a lot of women who ended up running into 56 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: trouble at their offices or even being fired for refusing 57 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: to go get coffee for people. Yeah, and perhaps because 58 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: of things like being expected to make coffee for people, 59 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: and perhaps because of the lack of respect that administrative 60 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: work get, it still remains quote and often taxing, sometimes humiliating, 61 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: an increasingly precarious job. But if we go back to 62 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 1: ancient Rome, and this is coming from the International Association 63 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: of Administrative Professionals. It was a respectable job of Secretaries 64 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: were usually highly educated men who took dictation as scribes 65 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: and often acted as trusted advisors. Yeah, you know, chiseling 66 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: all those little memos into uh, into stone tablets and 67 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,600 Speaker 1: what not. We needed a steady head to steady steady hand. Um. 68 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: Moving into early modern times, though, members of the nobility 69 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 1: also had male secretaries who could speak several languages and 70 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: were required to have abroad education. And really, I mean 71 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:48,200 Speaker 1: going forward until the Industrial Revolution, men dominated the field. 72 00:04:48,240 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: It was until the eighteen eighties that women took over, 73 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,359 Speaker 1: and so in even even in the late nineteenth century, 74 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,359 Speaker 1: women are still kind of in the home. They haven't 75 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: moved outside of really domestic work, I would say, um, 76 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,480 Speaker 1: and you know, they were in their own spheres. The 77 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:07,920 Speaker 1: clerk did the bulk of the work in the office 78 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: is drafting letters, copying documents, filing, keeping the books. But 79 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: because they were men, any clerical work they did could 80 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: reasonably be expected to help them move up the ladder eventually, 81 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: So you could start in an office in the late 82 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 1: nineteenth century as a clerk, but eventually become the VP, 83 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 1: the boss, the guy running the store. That's not so 84 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: much the case with women, but that whole moving men 85 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,240 Speaker 1: up and paying them more also has a lot to 86 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 1: do with why women took over clerical work in the 87 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: first place. So with the Industrial Revolution came an enormous 88 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 1: amount of paperwork, and with that we have the quote 89 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: unquote feminization of low level clerical work and also a 90 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,520 Speaker 1: revolutionary machine that really is a big reason to thank 91 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: for women taking over the sector, and that is the 92 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: invention of the typewriter. So after this is really interesting. 93 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: After the Civil War, the company E. Remington and Sons 94 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 1: was looking for a way to expand its product line 95 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 1: because rifles were not in high demand in peacetime. So 96 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: in eighteen seventy three it took on this typewriter design 97 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: that was designed by this guy last name Shoals, and 98 00:06:26,640 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: they sold it. Now, there are a ton of other 99 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: people who were also developing typewriters at the time, um, 100 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: but they weren't considering the typewriter for office work. A 101 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: lot of times it was marketed as more of a 102 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: quote unquote literary piano how melodic, yes, for for writers 103 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: and such. But Remington took a bet that it would 104 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 1: be used for clerical work, and it paid off. And 105 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: one other way that Remington made bank was by marketing 106 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: it towards women. And one way that they did that 107 00:06:57,640 --> 00:07:02,080 Speaker 1: was by casing one of their early is typewriter models 108 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: with a floral a floral casing. Casing it with a 109 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: floral casing, thank god, because I hate typing on just 110 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,559 Speaker 1: plain black typewriters myself. Well in many of those early ads. 111 00:07:14,600 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: So for that Remington model, it was often modeled by Schuls, 112 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,960 Speaker 1: the inventors daughter Lillian. So from the outset you have 113 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: these advertising images of women next to typewriters, and pretty 114 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: soon once you enter the early twentieth century, you have 115 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:37,040 Speaker 1: the icon of the typewriter girl. Yeah, well, so why 116 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: did this become? Why why do we have a typewriter 117 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:42,280 Speaker 1: girl icon to begin with? And part of that has 118 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 1: to do with companies realized they could pay women lower 119 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: wages to do the work. They realized when women started 120 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 1: entering the office during the Civil War because of employment shortages, 121 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:55,520 Speaker 1: people are like, oh wait, wait, wait, women can do 122 00:07:55,720 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: other things besides just like cook me dinner. So they 123 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,560 Speaker 1: realized that they need to get more women in the office. 124 00:08:02,600 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: Because a they can work and use their brains and 125 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 1: be they can be paid less. So you get these 126 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: secretarial schools opening up that offer professional training that make 127 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 1: it possible for women to enter the workforce without having 128 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,440 Speaker 1: a college education. So that kind of broadens the appeal 129 00:08:17,480 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. And there were a lot 130 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 1: of considerations for women too. I mean, yes, you can 131 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 1: argue that they're being taken advantage of, But for women, 132 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 1: like I said, there wasn't much outside of domestic work. 133 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: They had relatively high wages in the office compared with 134 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,199 Speaker 1: the alternatives, and there was a certain status and respectability 135 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 1: to office employment. Plus you got that education if you 136 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: went to one of these secretarial schools. And so to 137 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: look at some of those salaries at the end of 138 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century in the Northeast, for instance, domestic servants 139 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 1: earned two to five dollars a week, factory workers a 140 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 1: dollar fifty to eight dollars per week, whereas typists and 141 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 1: stenographers earned six to fifteen dollars a week. Yeah. But 142 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 1: and even though that uh, stenographers six to fifty dollars 143 00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: a week was anywhere from a third to half of 144 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: what men would make doing the same thing, Like you said, Caroline, 145 00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 1: that was a great option considering that in five the 146 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 1: only female employment sectors you could go into we're teaching, 147 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: which was something that was also revolutionary at the time 148 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 1: because women had only recently taken over for men as teachers, uh, nursing, clerking, 149 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: doing the domestic servant work, or factory work, or of 150 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: course just getting married. And the number of women working 151 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 1: as stenographers actually rose pretty rapidly. In eighteen seventy there 152 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: were just seven seven women working as stenographers according to 153 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 1: the Census four. That's four point five of the one 154 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: d fifty four stenographers in the country. But by nineteen 155 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: hundred there were two hundred thousand, and by nineteen thirty 156 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 1: two millions, So that's an incredible increase I think as 157 00:09:57,320 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 1: far as women coming into that line of work and 158 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 1: quote unquote feminizing it. And these typists generally were from 159 00:10:05,520 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: the middle class urban households because typing was considered more 160 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: morally acceptable than factory and servant positions, so there there 161 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,960 Speaker 1: was kind of a general type to the typeist, if 162 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: you will, yeah, um, speaking of the moral acceptability of it. 163 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: In nine the Ladies Holme Journal editor Edward Bach said 164 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: that office work is quote the best paid and most 165 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:35,719 Speaker 1: respectable employment for a young woman. And again, I mean 166 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,199 Speaker 1: the the whole advertising imagery of the women next to 167 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: the typewriter really can't be underscored enough. This was something 168 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: that Donald Hoake explored in his paper The Woman and 169 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,119 Speaker 1: the Typewriter, a case study and technological innovation and social change. 170 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: And there was also at the time a picture postcard craze, 171 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 1: and uh, there were all of these postcards that would 172 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: come out showing the typewriter girl. And sometimes it would 173 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: be yeah, sometimes it would just be kind of a 174 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, a pretty generic image of a girl next 175 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 1: to a typewriter. Sometimes it would be yes, a little 176 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: more titilating. There was one from seven that's three part 177 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 1: card showing a wife catching her husband with a secretary. 178 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: In one of the panels, she calls her an amorous 179 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: little upstart. So pretty quickly there too, though you have 180 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,760 Speaker 1: the there's there is this discomfort of these women entering 181 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 1: the office, even though it's considered more morally acceptable. And 182 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: the novelty of the typewriter was really important because that 183 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 1: meant that this was a gender neutral job. It wasn't 184 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: women pushing men out of typing jobs. They were simply 185 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:50,959 Speaker 1: filling positions in an expanding industry. Yeah, and it should 186 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 1: be noted that, Okay, so women weren't pushing men out 187 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 1: of jobs like, you know, physically, or they weren't being 188 00:11:57,559 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: hired over men necessarily, but the number of men really 189 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: did start to dwindle. And a nineteen or six book 190 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 1: even encouragement to think hard before they took one of 191 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 1: these jobs, because by the turn of the twentieth century 192 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: the position was already so feminized that they were like, 193 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: do you really want to, you know, get into like 194 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: a woman job. And one thing to think about two 195 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: is the fact that you know, even though we might 196 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 1: still consider you know, typing in low level clerical or 197 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,319 Speaker 1: even in that description, oh it's just low level jobs. 198 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: This was revolutionary because typically women had moved out of 199 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 1: the house by you know, going for occupations, so they 200 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: had typically performed at home, which is why so many, 201 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: for instance, at that time, we're working in garment factories. 202 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 1: They were simply taking their jobs out of the home 203 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: and into the workplace. But the typewriter opens up this 204 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,640 Speaker 1: whole new thing. Yeah, and in two we start organizing 205 00:12:53,720 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 1: the two the National Secretaries Association formed and it's now 206 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: the International Association of Administrative Professor Channels, and in nineteen 207 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: fifty one that group administered the first Certified Professional Secretaries examination. 208 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: And for anyone who does watch mad Men, you know 209 00:13:11,280 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: that there is a hierarchy among these secretaries, especially in 210 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: you know, the nineteen forties, fifties, and sixties. Yeah, and 211 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: a lot of that hierarchy is very evident in the 212 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 1: steno pool. This is again coming from Lynn peril Uh. 213 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: She talks about how these cento pools are groups, large 214 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: groups of desks where all the women are hard at 215 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: work typing. They might be listening to a dictation on 216 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,880 Speaker 1: their headphones, their headset um or or typing up notes. 217 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: And that's usually where the newbies got their start, is 218 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:42,760 Speaker 1: in the stenopool. At the desk, so lowest on the 219 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: totem pole you have the type is moving slightly up 220 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 1: the totem pole, we have the stenographers who took the 221 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:53,120 Speaker 1: dictation that the typists typed. Usually they took it by hand. 222 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: And then moving up even further you have secretaries. And 223 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:02,120 Speaker 1: these folks provided support to execute cutives. And something that 224 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 1: like just kind of made me feel icky and awful 225 00:14:05,440 --> 00:14:09,920 Speaker 1: inside was reading about not that women wanted to be secretaries. 226 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 1: There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. It's the fact that 227 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:17,440 Speaker 1: a nineteen sixties author told readers that you may have 228 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 1: once dreamed about being a doctor, a layer, or a scientist, ladies, 229 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: but today you can study to be a medical or 230 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: legal secretary. So it was like kind of accepting the 231 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: fact that that was as high as you could go 232 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: on the totem pole was to be a secretary to 233 00:14:32,840 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: a doctor or to an executive. Well, yeah, and I 234 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: mean again, it was still at the time this kind 235 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: of respectable work. You go to your typing school, you 236 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, you graduate, and you go into whatever office, 237 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: whatever stenopool you might land in UM. But then they 238 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: we have the evolution from secretary to administrative assistant. And 239 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 1: Lynn Peril, who wrote that book Swimming in the Stenopool, 240 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,480 Speaker 1: talks about how by the nineteen seven d's calling yourself 241 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: an administrative assistant was this intentional way of communicating to 242 00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: your usually male superiors that listen, buddy, I'm taking myself 243 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,960 Speaker 1: seriously and I expect you to take me seriously as well. 244 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: Because she recounts horror stories from other secretaries having to 245 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,760 Speaker 1: to deal um with with guys, especially because of this 246 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 1: idea that secretaries were a little more than just quote 247 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,920 Speaker 1: unquote hot to trot, pencil pushing woman who are there 248 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: to have affairs with their boss, right, Yeah, and the 249 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: whole the whole suspicion of the wife. And yeah, there 250 00:15:37,160 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: were a lot of those cards like you mentioned that 251 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: showed even back in the very turn of the twentieth century, 252 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,680 Speaker 1: that showed wives walking in on their husbands cannoodling with 253 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 1: the secretary. Yeah. Um, speaking of the whole secretary stereotype, 254 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 1: this is something that sociologists Seawright Mills is called doing 255 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 1: the housework of your boss's business. And secretaries were very 256 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: quickly either considered to be spinsters or seductresses. They were 257 00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: essentially like the two schools of secretarial thought, where you 258 00:16:10,320 --> 00:16:13,640 Speaker 1: devote your entire life to being a secretary. I mean 259 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: even in these secretarialal manuals where they advise women to 260 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: really form their entire social lives around their secretarial work, 261 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:25,520 Speaker 1: just to make sure that if their boss needs them 262 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: at the drop of a hat, they can be there 263 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:32,160 Speaker 1: with their steno pad um or you pull a Megan 264 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: on Madman spoiler alert and you married boss. Yeah, there 265 00:16:36,040 --> 00:16:38,360 Speaker 1: was one of those manuals, like in the fifties or sixties, 266 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: I guess, talking about doing the housework for your boss 267 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: at the business, talking about how you know, with all 268 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: of this new technology, you know, you don't want to 269 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: get displaced and kicked out because they have computers or anything. 270 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: So you should really try to do stuff like dust 271 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: and empty the ash trays. Because what computer can do that, Kristen, 272 00:16:55,160 --> 00:17:01,680 Speaker 1: It can't, it can't. Roombas did not exist. But in Nino, 273 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 1: with the publication of a series of articles by May 274 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: Christie in the San Francisco Chronicle, um, we have the 275 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: emergence of the quote unquote office wife stereotype who is 276 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,720 Speaker 1: really married to her job. But that also then gives 277 00:17:16,760 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 1: way to this more even more directly sexualized image of 278 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: the secretary. Yeah, which is why I mean, I think 279 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: there's still that stereotype in a lot of places about 280 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: you know, oh, my husband has a hot young secretary, 281 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: you know, just worrying that constant like stereotype of oh 282 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:37,880 Speaker 1: he hired a good looking secretary, I've got to keep 283 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 1: an eye on him, right, And in the nineteen seventies, 284 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 1: even as some of these secretaries were shifting to the 285 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: the administrative assistant title and obviously wanting to you know, 286 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: have more dignity in their work. There does come a 287 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:59,600 Speaker 1: point where secretaries and second way feminists do butt heads, 288 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: and this is something that Peril talks about as well, 289 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 1: because in nineteen seventy one, for instance, Gloria Steinham gave 290 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: a commencement address at Smith College and she references in 291 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 1: it a a idyllic future where women refused to learn 292 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: how to type. And then in March nineteen seventy two, 293 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: the National Organization of Women protested at the AD agency 294 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 1: that created the Olivetti Girl, as these are ads for 295 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 1: this type of typewriter which depicted dizzy headed sexpots her secretaries. 296 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: And I've looked at the ads and they are that 297 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: the whole thing is like, are you an Olivetti girl? 298 00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: And it's you know, very pretty girls looking kind of vacant. 299 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 1: And so now is protesting this AD agency and they 300 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 1: were very anti secretary obviously coming from a good place 301 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 1: of you know, not having women kind of under the 302 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,000 Speaker 1: thumb of these sexist male bosses. But there were also 303 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,920 Speaker 1: a lot of secretaries administrative assistance at the time who 304 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: were like, hey, you know what I'm not really on 305 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: board with your feminism because you're saying that my job 306 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 1: is demeaning, but I say my job is an honest paycheck. Yeah, 307 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: I think, wasn't that. One woman in response to this said, 308 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: you know, like administrative assistance don't carry signs like like 309 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: we're fine where we are. We chose this line of work. 310 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,639 Speaker 1: Go speak for somebody else, right, And and it's kind 311 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:23,360 Speaker 1: of it is kind of interesting to think about that 312 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: when you consider how, um, you know, the typewriter, even 313 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: though it did create this initially create this massive gender 314 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 1: pay gap, which I'm sure is still the case because 315 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: there are some statistics finding that male secretaries still make 316 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:45,760 Speaker 1: more than female secretaries today. Um, but it was you 317 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: could say it was revolutionary time in post Civil War America. Unfortunately, 318 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: the stereotype and pop culture really turned it into this 319 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: spinster or seductoris kind of thing. Well, speaking of male secretaries, 320 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: you don't really see them a lot, do you. I mean? 321 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:09,600 Speaker 1: In her book The Elite Secretary, The Definitive Guide to 322 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,640 Speaker 1: a Successful Career, Sandard Warbock talks about one man who 323 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: described male secretaries as being viewed with suspicion. He he 324 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,040 Speaker 1: said that he felt like he was bucking societal preconceptions 325 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: by working in that arena. Well, and I feel like, 326 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: even though that was the eighties and today, like we said, um, 327 00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: from those Beer of Labor statistics statistics that women comprise 328 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,879 Speaker 1: of all administrative professional jobs, so obviously there's still very 329 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,639 Speaker 1: much in the minority. But I was sure I was 330 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,239 Speaker 1: going to find some kind of academic study of the 331 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: perceptions of male secretaries in the workplace. I did not 332 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: find a one, not a single one. And I don't 333 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: know maybe if whether that's because it is so narrow 334 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:57,040 Speaker 1: or not, but I was surprised to see that. Um 335 00:20:57,080 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: almost as surprised to see how much itch of a 336 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:05,880 Speaker 1: headline maker it was when the White House recently appointed 337 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 1: its first male social secretary, Jeremy Barnard, And it was 338 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: kind of like a double headline because he was male 339 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: and openly gay. But seriously, Washington kind of fell over 340 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: on itself at the idea of this male social secretary 341 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: appointed by the Obama administration. And he didn't want to 342 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: talk about it publicly for a long time. And the 343 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: only public statement that I've seen Barnard make dealt specifically 344 00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:35,080 Speaker 1: with organizing one event, not about like what do you 345 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 1: feel about being this male secretary? Yeah, it's probably like 346 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,640 Speaker 1: I feel great. I make a great amount of money 347 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: doing Yeah, I get to work in the White House. 348 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: What do you Do? Podcast? Podcast? So I do think though, 349 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: that there needs to be a greater appreciation for those admirals, 350 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: Like you said at the top of the podcast, Caroline, 351 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,240 Speaker 1: a lot of times there is an assumption that they 352 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: don't do anythinging. I mean, I know from working at 353 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: how Stuff works, our office manager, who is a male, 354 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,200 Speaker 1: He is in that four percent, and this office would 355 00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: fall apart if he were not here. I don't know 356 00:22:13,440 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: how we would function exactly. Um. And I think that 357 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:20,840 Speaker 1: you know, male, female, whatever, that secretarial work should get 358 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: more of a stew and also recognize, um, it's historical significance. Yeah. 359 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: And just how I mean, just how crazy it was 360 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 1: to read about the typewriter helping to create this gender 361 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:37,800 Speaker 1: neutral job where none had been before. As far as this, 362 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,199 Speaker 1: this job was really created out of thin air. I 363 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:42,239 Speaker 1: mean for the most part. Yeah, we had scribes, we 364 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: had assistance, we had things like that. But this this 365 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: type ist job or these stenographers, that was really something 366 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,760 Speaker 1: new after the Civil War, and there was no preconceived 367 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,640 Speaker 1: notion of it being a very gendered male thing. Yeah, 368 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 1: and it's unfortunate that those pop culture stereotype have in 369 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,800 Speaker 1: a large way, you know, overshadowed with those archetypes of 370 00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: the typewriter girl or the office wife. You know, it's 371 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: always always characterizing these women in relationship to men in 372 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: the office. But maybe that does reflect still kind of 373 00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: the lingering discomfort with kind of women plowing through in 374 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: the office. Yeah, perps, So any administrative professionals listening, we 375 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: want to hear, especially from you. Oh and also here's 376 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: wishing you a happy admin day on ap But yeah, 377 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: right into us about what you feel about your job. 378 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,440 Speaker 1: Do you enjoy it? Is it horrible to people look 379 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,239 Speaker 1: down on you and make you just get coffee all 380 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: the time? What is it like? Right to us? Mom? 381 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: Stuff at Discovery dot com is where you can send 382 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 1: your letters. I don't want to hear from Michelle about 383 00:23:56,320 --> 00:23:58,919 Speaker 1: our dress code episode. She said. When I was in 384 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: high school, during s You're a Week, we always had 385 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,879 Speaker 1: gender bender Day where the boys dressed like girls and 386 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: the girls dressed like boys. Every year, without fail, boys 387 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: would get sent home for their skirts being too short 388 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: or their breasts being outrageously big, and girls were just 389 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: fine wearing oversized T shirts and drawing on facial hair. 390 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: So there you have it. Michelle's evidence on gender Bender 391 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: Day that it's easier to dress like a boy. Well, 392 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: I got on here from Sarah and she's writing about 393 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: the dress codes as well, which we've gotten a lot 394 00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: of mail about the dress code issue, and it's it's 395 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:33,640 Speaker 1: all been very much entertaining, and she writes, I went 396 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 1: through my punk rock face during junior high. I fought 397 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: in one on two different issues concerning our dress code. 398 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 1: I often dyed my hair, staying within a dress code 399 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: of not doing wild bright colors, and I often did 400 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: natural red, brown and black. But one time I went 401 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: all out and did half of my head red, half 402 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: my head black, and split right down the middle where 403 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: my part was. I went through three classes, and finally 404 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: in my fourth, my science teacher gave me a disgusted 405 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: look and said, no, you cannot come into office like that. 406 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: Go home. And when I asked why, he said, you 407 00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: expect me to be able to teach you with your 408 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: hair like that? No, So I was sent home for 409 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,239 Speaker 1: the day and told him my hair had to be 410 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: solid by the next day. My mom would have none 411 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: of it and went straight to the dress code, which 412 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: red hair must be of natural color. And my argument was, 413 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: what about girls with highlights? Brown hair and highlights, It's 414 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,800 Speaker 1: not natural, but you allow it. The school's response was 415 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: people were just used to that, and so he took 416 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,719 Speaker 1: that one all the way to the district office and 417 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: I was allowed to keep my hair. And that same 418 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: year I got an industrial piercing through the curled cartilage 419 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:39,120 Speaker 1: at the top of your ear. The same teacher sent 420 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 1: me up and I recited the section on piercings that 421 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: said no excess of jewelry in or about the ear, 422 00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: and said there were plenty of other girls who had 423 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: two piercings in their card lists, just not joined by 424 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,360 Speaker 1: a single bar. Again, I was able to keep my piercing, 425 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,919 Speaker 1: and they changed the dress code the following year. I 426 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: did not go around finding things to beat in the 427 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,520 Speaker 1: dress code. I didn't wear spaghetti straps or flip blogs 428 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:03,080 Speaker 1: because it explicitly said not to. But when there was 429 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: a wriggle room, I was sure to use it to 430 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,240 Speaker 1: my advantage. Get them oh the punk rock phases of 431 00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: our youth. So thanks to everyone who has written to 432 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: mom Stuff at Discovery dot com. You can also find 433 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: us on Facebook like as Sarah, follow us on Twitter 434 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 1: mom Stuff Podcasts, and you can also find us on 435 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:27,640 Speaker 1: Tumbler at stuff mom Never Told You dot tumbler dot com. 436 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: And if you would like to read our blog as 437 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: well this week, you can find it on our website, 438 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: it's how stuff works dot com. For more on this 439 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics, is how stuff works dot 440 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: com