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Speaker 1: This Easter, dioceses all over the world are seeing record

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Speaker 1: breaking numbers of new converts to Catholicism. The bishops can't

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Speaker 1: even explain it, what's really happening. Plus Holy Week services

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Speaker 1: are curtailed in the Holy Land as Pope Leo shakes

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Speaker 1: things up in Rome. All on this Prayerful Posse. Come on,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to an important prayerful Posse. Be sure to subscribe

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Speaker 1: to the show. It's a wonderful way to support our

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Speaker 1: work and totally free. Or you can visit Raymond Arroyo

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Speaker 1: dot com if you'd like to contribute. Now let's convene

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Speaker 1: the Prayerful Posse for our Holy Week edition. I'm joined

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Speaker 1: by Canon Lawyer, Priest of the Archdiocese of New York,

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Speaker 1: Father Gerald Murray, an editor in chief of The Catholic

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Speaker 1: Thing dot org, Robert Royal. As always, gentlemen, thank you

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Speaker 1: all for being here. Look, I wanted to start out

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Speaker 1: with good news this week. We usually put that at

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Speaker 1: the end of the show, but it's a week of

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Speaker 1: good news. So the New York Times and the National

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Speaker 1: Catholic Register and others are reporting about convert surges and

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Speaker 1: the numbers are really impressive. One pastor in Tampa told

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Speaker 1: the Register our numbers exploded this year. A priest in

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Speaker 1: Philadelphia says converts are arriving with something the old ones

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Speaker 1: didn't always have, an active prayer life, a commitment. He says,

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Speaker 1: they accept church teaching faster. More about that in the moment.

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Speaker 1: But Bob, what do you think is actually driving this

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Speaker 1: explosion in converts not only in the US, around the world.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, just this week, Raymond, I was talking with a

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Speaker 2: French friend who I've known for decades, and he was

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Speaker 2: here in Washington, d C. And he said, in France,

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Speaker 2: it's multiple reasons. You can't identify one specific reason. But

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Speaker 2: as I pointed out to him, the largest group of

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Speaker 2: converts in France is the group of people between the

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Speaker 2: ages of eighteen and twenty five. So and I think

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Speaker 2: that that's pretty much true here in the United States

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Speaker 2: as well well. And you know, we see it in

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Speaker 2: other places. You know, we've said this before, but how

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Speaker 2: much destruction of the kind of human environment that we

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Speaker 2: live in has produced this generation that it's just lost

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Speaker 2: and is looking for something solid. And by the way,

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Speaker 2: it's clear that what they're turning to is not just

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Speaker 2: you know, some vague Protestantism or Hinduism or Spiritualism. They're

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Speaker 2: turning to Catholicism and Orthodoxy. So they're looking for something

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Speaker 2: solid that's got a tradition, that's got a formation that

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Speaker 2: they can look at and recognize actually reinforces some things

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Speaker 2: that they're desperately looking for. So as far as we

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Speaker 2: can tell, I mean, there are other causes as well,

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Speaker 2: but if I had to identify the central cause, that's it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You look in a transient age where everything's up

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Speaker 1: for grabs. They're looking for things that last, that they

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Speaker 1: can hitch their lives to and build their lives upon.

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Speaker 1: All the young people I talk to, and as you said,

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Speaker 1: most of these are traditionally minded young people. This is

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Speaker 1: kind of the constant refrain. We wanted something solid, we

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Speaker 1: wanted something tested, we wanted something eternal. Father Detroit reports

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Speaker 1: fourteen hundred converts. That's the highest number in twenty one years.

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Speaker 1: Even in Washington, d c. God help us, seventeen hundred

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Speaker 1: people are entering the church. That's the most in seventeen years.

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Speaker 1: Some claim this represents a two hundred percent increase year

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Speaker 1: over year in many dioceses. Is this the Pope Leo

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Speaker 1: effect or is it something deeper happening in the culture.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think you know, Popo Leo has been with

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Speaker 3: us just about a year now, so this predates that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it certainly could have an effect that since

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Speaker 3: we have an American pope, Americans are paying more attention

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Speaker 3: to the Catholic Church. But I think it does go

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Speaker 3: back to what Bob's identifying, and you just said in

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Speaker 3: your remarks that we do live in a transient age

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Speaker 3: where people looking for structure, They're looking for the permanent things,

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Speaker 3: what's truthful. They want to know what God teaches the

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Speaker 3: world and how that teaching is then realized in practiced

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Speaker 3: and Catholicism offers, you know, the package deal. We can

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Speaker 3: say it's it satisfies you intellectually, emotionally, spiritually, uh, and

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Speaker 3: on the just on a human level. You know, Catholicism

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Speaker 3: is a solid religion that is universal and wherever you go,

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Speaker 3: you find the Mass, you find the sacraments. So you know,

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Speaker 3: people respond to that this isn't you know, do it

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Speaker 3: yourself religion. It's a religion that comes to you and

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Speaker 3: you accept it. And I'm so grateful that the Holy

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Speaker 3: Spirit is prompting so many souls to enter the church

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Speaker 3: this Easter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an amazing thing to watch so many young people,

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Speaker 1: particularly and young men. A priest, and fort Worth told

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Speaker 1: the Register we don't change with the times, and the

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Speaker 1: Archbishop of Saint Louis says it's isolation from tech and

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Speaker 1: even COVID that's sending people back to the Peuse Bob,

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Speaker 1: your reaction to those causes driving this convert boom, Well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I'll add to what I said earlier.

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Speaker 2: In France, that's the place we actually have the best

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Speaker 2: figures for eighty two percent of the people who are

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Speaker 2: converting are under the age of forty, so there's something

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Speaker 2: unusual happening here. At the same time, Ramon, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to rain on the parade in Holy Week, but

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Speaker 2: a lot more people are leaving than are coming in,

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Speaker 2: and a lot of people say to me, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's nice that we have this.

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Speaker 4: Boom, but you know, renewals start like this.

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Speaker 2: They start with the prayerful posse, they start with the

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Speaker 2: Catholic thing, they start with Father Gerald Murray, and you know,

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Speaker 2: little by little they build up momentum and that's how

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Speaker 2: you get a religious revival.

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Speaker 4: It isn't you know.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't like it just was a couple of years

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Speaker 2: that we've had this downturn. We've been in a downturn

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Speaker 2: for several decades, and so this is going to take

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Speaker 2: a while to build up. But this is a very

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Speaker 2: strong sign that something is moving out there in spite

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Speaker 2: of everything else that we're seeing. I hear from people

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Speaker 2: all the time who say, you know, everything looks so

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Speaker 2: terrible in the church and what are we going to

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Speaker 2: And I tell them, look, the Holy Spirit is in charge.

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Speaker 2: We've been through this sort of critical moment many times

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Speaker 2: in the history of the church. As you always say,

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Speaker 2: stay the course, follow the light. That's right, and God

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Speaker 2: himself is going to make it happen. We have to

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Speaker 2: be confidence and keep the faith because of that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, Father, at the end of the show,

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Speaker 1: we're going to do something that ties into what Bob

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Speaker 1: was saying about the media, the appetite, what people are

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Speaker 1: looking for. But it reminded me as you were talking earlier,

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Speaker 1: Bob Pope Benedict, I remember sitting with him and he

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Speaker 1: took a very kind of dim view of John Paul

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Speaker 1: the second springtime. Remember he talked about the new Springtime.

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Speaker 1: Benedict's version of the New Springtime was that you'd have

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Speaker 1: a collapse, if you will, in the external footprint of

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Speaker 1: the church. But he talked about faith like the mustard seeds,

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Speaker 1: small convinced creative communities, and from those little mustard seeds

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Speaker 1: would grow something bigger, stronger, more convinced, more faithful, more vibrant.

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Speaker 1: Father is a New York priest. What are you seeing

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Speaker 1: in your parish? And I know Saint Joe's, which is

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Speaker 1: one of the oldest churches in New York down in

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Speaker 1: Greenwich Village. I used to go there, my son went

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Speaker 1: there through college. They've been seeing an incredible turnout among

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Speaker 1: young people.

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Speaker 3: No, it is remarkable. You know, the media is paying

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Speaker 3: attention to it precisely because it's a newsworthy story. Lots

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Speaker 3: of college age kids and then young men and women

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Speaker 3: in the twenty to thirty are embracing what the world

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Speaker 3: tells them to flee, which is an organized religion with

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Speaker 3: a clear set of doctrines and spiritual demands such as

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Speaker 3: going to Mass on every Sunday. So people are not

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Speaker 3: rejecting what the church offers. Now, it is true with

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Speaker 3: Bob said, many people leave the church. And you know,

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Speaker 3: unfortunately many people baptize as young in their youth, as

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Speaker 3: an infant, they never really go to catechism and learn

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Speaker 3: the religion. So by the time they get to make

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Speaker 3: their own decisions, by when they turn to college, they say, well,

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Speaker 3: now I'm not living at home anymore. I'm just going

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Speaker 3: to abandon all of this family tradition. Hopefully many of

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Speaker 3: them will come back. Some do. But as Bob said,

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Speaker 3: this is how things get going, and you're quoting, you know,

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Speaker 3: Pope Benedict's attitude. It's very good because you know, remember

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Speaker 3: if forrest springtime, there's the frozen winter of desolation, and

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Speaker 3: that's what we've gone through in many US.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I think so too. Yeah, decades of it, and

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Speaker 1: you know, the last twelve years or so, we're deep

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Speaker 1: freeze for some people. Look, Father Dwight Longeneker and others

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Speaker 1: have written candidly Father about what a convert in today's

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Speaker 1: Catholic church might be facing as they enter. Heath cites

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Speaker 1: cold parishes, liturgical incoherence, a certain freestyle attitude toward church teaching,

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Speaker 1: and he points to a disconnect between what's attracting these

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Speaker 1: converts and what they actually find Father, then Bob, can

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Speaker 1: the church keep those converts once they enter? Given that

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Speaker 1: reality and it is a reality in many places.

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Speaker 3: No, it is a reality. You know off until converts

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Speaker 3: you know who do the convert class or the o

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Speaker 3: CIA program. So you know more now in about six

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Speaker 3: to three to six months than most Catholics you're going

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Speaker 3: to meet in your life. No, because you've studied the

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Speaker 3: doctrine very well. The great loss of Catholic schools after

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Speaker 3: the Second Voting Council, the closure of them, the secularization

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Speaker 3: of Catholic colleges. You know, we're producing people coming out

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Speaker 3: of Catholic colleges. We have no real idea of what

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Speaker 3: Catholicism is. It's just not really.

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Speaker 4: Taught that well.

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Speaker 3: So how do they survive? Well, this is where we

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Speaker 3: go back to the Latin Mass, the Reverend Liturgy, the

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Speaker 3: younger priests who embraced the tradition. People will find oases

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Speaker 3: of spiritual life and it'll produce a lot of good

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Speaker 3: And I'll go back now to the media. One of

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Speaker 3: the greatest things that the Internet offers is a chance

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Speaker 3: to connect with people and with Catholic experiences of prayer

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Speaker 3: and learning that are tremendous and that overcome. You know,

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Speaker 3: the used to be boundaries you have to live near

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Speaker 3: a place to hear a lecture. Now you sit in

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Speaker 3: your office, turn on the computer and you get, for instance,

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Speaker 3: the Catholic Thing lecture series on Dante or on Newman.

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Speaker 3: So you can really benefit from this media improvement in

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Speaker 3: the life of the church.

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Speaker 1: A while back, a man I didn't know showed up

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Speaker 1: important than protecting your loved ones, and Aura does just that. Bob,

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Speaker 1: I want to pick up on something father said there

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Speaker 1: about the depth of teaching and how that that's what's

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Speaker 1: really attracting these young people. They love the teaching of

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Speaker 1: the church. My guess is the more of those young

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Speaker 1: people that come in over time, that teaching will only

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Speaker 1: magnify and swamp whatever other elements are lying about the

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Speaker 1: church dragging us away from that tradition and orthodox teaching.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I always think that converts are the battery that

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Speaker 2: moves the mechanism at the church. Everybody I know in

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Speaker 2: Washington who's influential basically has been a convert.

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Speaker 4: They come in with a lot more energy.

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Speaker 2: They're not daunted by a bad literature or a bad

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Speaker 2: priest that they run across. And by the way, we've

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Speaker 2: talked about this a bit before, but there's been a

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Speaker 2: lot of attention paid to specific smaller communities.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: Online campuses at secular universities, for example, are producing huge numbers.

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Speaker 4: One of my granddaughters is at.

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Speaker 2: George Washington University and she tells me there are one

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Speaker 2: hundred and thirty undergraduates joining the Catholic Church this year

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Speaker 2: at Easter, which is just an astonishing thing in secular,

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Speaker 2: politicized Washington d C. I mean, they mostly came here

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Speaker 2: because they thought they wanted to be into politics. And

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Speaker 2: she talks about personal conversations that she's had with people. So, look,

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Speaker 2: these people are coming in against the grain of everything

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Speaker 2: that's going on in the christ So they've seen it all.

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Speaker 2: They've made a decision that they don't care. There's something

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Speaker 2: that they need that they're willing to take, even the

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Speaker 2: criticism from other young people or other people you know

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Speaker 2: around them and their workplaces or wherever it is.

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Speaker 4: I have great hope in this.

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Speaker 1: Me too, Me too, Okay, I want to move to Jerusalem.

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Speaker 1: We're going to run through a lot of different topics.

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Speaker 4: Now.

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Speaker 1: Cardinal Pierre Bautista PiZZ Obala, the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem,

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Speaker 1: he was blocked on Palm Sunday from entering the Holy

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Speaker 1: Sepulcher by Israeli authorities. Now, they said, look, this was

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Speaker 1: for his own safety, but it's really the first time

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Speaker 1: in centuries that a patriarch's been blocked from going and

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Speaker 1: celebrating Palm Sunday services. They now have worked out some

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Speaker 1: deal with Israeli authorities to conduct Holy Week services and

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Speaker 1: Easter services, but there'll be no processions, no public will

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Speaker 1: be in attendance, just a live feed and broadcast of

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Speaker 1: these Holy Week and Easter services. Father, is this appropriate?

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna say it is because of the nature of

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Speaker 3: what's going on. I mean, we had explosions near the

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Speaker 3: holy sites as a result of Iranian bombing of Israel

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Speaker 3: and I saw Chris Ruddy at Newsmax interviewed the Prime

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Speaker 3: Minister Natan Yahoo and he was very apologetic, actually saying

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Speaker 3: that the police officer was doing what he was told.

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Speaker 3: It's unfortunate that a supervisor wasn't called in to could

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Speaker 3: resolve it on the spot. Because when the cardinal and

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Speaker 3: a couple of priests want to enter the Holy Sepulcher

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Speaker 3: church to say the Palm Sunday mess that should be

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Speaker 3: an automatic yes to get them in and out, that's

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Speaker 3: no problem. So I'm glad that they'll be able to do.

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Speaker 3: These arrangements were made, but you know it is at

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Speaker 3: any point a bomb could explode in the Old City

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Speaker 3: of Jerusalem because the Iranians, you can't trust them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well, and look, I understand the security concerns.

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Speaker 1: I also understand the religious imperative that I think the

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Speaker 1: patriarch and the Custos, who is the leader of the

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Speaker 1: Franciscan Order, this is their life and they were going

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Speaker 1: and if they want to take those lives into their

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Speaker 1: own hands to worship God, that's their prerogative. They should

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Speaker 1: be allowed to go there. They're not endangering anybody else.

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Speaker 1: Bob the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem also issued his

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Speaker 1: own statement. He says, for the third consecutive year, all

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Speaker 1: Easter celebrations from Palm Sunday through Easter would be limited

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Speaker 1: strictly to religious rights, no public events, no processions. The

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Speaker 1: Patriarch has cited the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Gaza, the

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Speaker 1: threat of violence and restriction on the Alaska Mosque, which

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Speaker 1: I guess the implication there was fear of Islamist attacks.

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Speaker 1: Do you worry about that combination of war and Islamist

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Speaker 1: pressure slowly making genuine Christian worship in Jerusalem untenable?

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean certainly.

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Speaker 2: I mean we talked you want to talk about places

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Speaker 2: where the Christianity is not growing. I mean it's the

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Speaker 2: way that Christians are being forced out of the Middle East,

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Speaker 2: and it's sometimes by direct attacks, but sometimes just from pressure.

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Speaker 2: These are historic Christian communities that go all the way

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Speaker 2: back to Christ himself, and we see this pressure not

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Speaker 2: only in the Old City in Jerusalem, but elsewhere.

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Speaker 4: The situation in the Old.

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Speaker 2: City is very, very difficult because you have the different religion.

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Speaker 4: Is cheek by Jowell.

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Speaker 2: Anybody who's ever been to Jerusalem knows that there's actually

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Speaker 2: a mosque right across a short alley way from the

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Speaker 2: Church of the Holy Sepulchers. If there was every attack there,

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Speaker 2: you probably also would hear they hit a mosque.

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Speaker 4: And it's the case.

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Speaker 2: And even the Jewish celebrations at the Western Wall had

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Speaker 2: to be restricted. You know, it's not just an anti

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Speaker 2: Christian element that's there. So I think it was prudent.

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Speaker 2: And you know, many things have happened in the past.

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Speaker 2: I happened to be in Jerusalem on Good Friday a

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Speaker 2: few years ago and I was awoken in the morning

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Speaker 2: by flashbangs going up on the Temple mound. Because there's

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Speaker 2: this constant conflict between the different religions there. So we

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Speaker 2: have to be very careful about this. If there were

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Speaker 2: ever a large scale attack on Christians in the Church

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Speaker 2: of the Holy Sepulcher, I don't know where that would end.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to move to the Vatican. Now. The

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Speaker 1: Pope washed the feet of twelve priests of the Diocese

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Speaker 1: of Rome on Holy Thursday. He ordained eleven of these

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Speaker 1: men father personally. Now this is in stark contrast really,

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Speaker 1: since twenty sixteen Pope Francis made it his signature of

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Speaker 1: practice to wash the feet of prisoners, women, refugees, Muslims,

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Speaker 1: people of other faiths. What does that liturgical shift tell us, Father,

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Speaker 1: And don't the rubrics call for men to have men's

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Speaker 1: feet washed on Holy thirty?

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Speaker 3: Well, Pop Francis changed the rubrics so you could wash

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Speaker 3: the feet of women. It became possible, but that was

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Speaker 3: after he did it, when it was forbidden by the rubrics.

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Speaker 3: But he, as pope, just ignored the rubrics then he

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Speaker 3: changed them. But back to the central point. The symbolism,

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Speaker 3: of course of washing of the feet is to bring

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Speaker 3: us back to what Jesus did at the Last Supper.

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Speaker 1: Whose feet did he wash?

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Speaker 3: The apostles? So the priests are you know, ordained, they

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Speaker 3: are successors of the apostles in the order of the priesthood.

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Speaker 3: So to wash the feet of twelve priests is very symbolic.

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Speaker 3: It brings us back to the nature of what we're celebrating.

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Speaker 3: The mass of the of the Lord's Supper is this

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Speaker 3: beautiful remembrance of when the Lord gave us both the

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Speaker 3: gift of the priests and the Holy Eucharist. So, you know,

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Speaker 3: adding a different emphasis to it, which pout Francis did.

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Speaker 3: I didn't find that to be useful or consistent with

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Speaker 3: you know the nature of that liturgical ceremony.

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Speaker 1: I don't mess up this bishop's name, but Bob, I

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Speaker 1: want to move to a Nigerian bishop. Also in Rome,

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Speaker 1: he's warning of christian Ophobia in the Muslim world in

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Speaker 1: the secular West. Archbishop Fortunatus Nua Kuko. Father, you can

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Speaker 1: fix the pronunciation when we talked about it later. But

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Speaker 1: he's at the Vatican's Dicast of Evangelization and he's expressing

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Speaker 1: concern about rising hostility toward Christians in the Islamic world

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Speaker 1: as well as post Christian Europe. Bob, he seems to

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Speaker 1: be saying here that there's a perfect storm brewing between

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Speaker 1: me anti Christian Islam and anti Christian Westerners.

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Speaker 2: I think he's been reading my book The Martyrs is

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Speaker 2: the New Millennium. I thought you'd say that the exact

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Speaker 2: conclusion that I come to that. Actually, I think Westerners

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Speaker 2: don't pay a lot of attention to the persecution and

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Speaker 2: martyrdom with Christians precisely because they don't really they don't

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Speaker 2: really think the Christians are worth defending. It's a harsh

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Speaker 2: way to put it, but I think that's partly true. Look,

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Speaker 2: it's been so bad in Nigeria that recently another bishop

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Speaker 2: has actually called on the United States to provide weapons

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Speaker 2: to the Nigerian regime to enable them to defend Christians

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Speaker 2: in a country like Nigeria. Now, you know, a lot

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Speaker 2: of people just think that this happens to be, you know,

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Speaker 2: some strange African conflict that's going on there. But what's

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Speaker 2: actually happened is that radical Islam moved from the Middle

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Speaker 2: East after we defeated Isis into Central Africa there where

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Speaker 2: they've set up these structures of Islamic radicalism. They're seeking

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Speaker 2: to create a kale fiate. You know, the Harvard political

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Speaker 2: scientist Samuel Huntington said years ago that Islam always has

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Speaker 2: bloody borders, that there's always been this conflict that it

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Speaker 2: has with Jews or with Muslims, and even with Hindus

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Speaker 2: and others when they go out further east. So it's

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Speaker 2: not surprising no one's really want to talk about this

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Speaker 2: because you know, we think that we all can just

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Speaker 2: you know, live and let live and get.

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Speaker 4: Along with one another.

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Speaker 2: But there are only some elements in Islam that we

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Speaker 2: can live and let live with. There are others that

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Speaker 2: are they're totalitarian in their aims. And I think that

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Speaker 2: especially was right to point it out, and I hope

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Speaker 2: that others in the Vatican take this very much to heart,

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Speaker 2: because that's the reality of what exists not only in Africa,

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Speaker 2: but in Europe and in the United States.

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Speaker 1: Right well, the Pope's going to Africa in April. Father,

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Speaker 1: this should be central, I think to a part of

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Speaker 1: his message. He's got to decry what's happening to the

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Speaker 1: Christian flock there, and hope he does.

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Speaker 3: And I'm sure he will, because it's precisely exactly this

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Speaker 3: religiously motivated anti Christian movement of his lam fanaticism, which

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Speaker 3: is at the core of what's happening. This is not

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Speaker 3: primarily an economic territorial dispute. It's an attempt to eradicate

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Speaker 3: Christians from the area so that they then can take

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Speaker 3: over the land. Bob's demonstrated this beautifully in his book Nina.

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Speaker 3: She talks about it all the time. You know, it's

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Speaker 3: really disgraceful that people are trying to downplay this because

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Speaker 3: they don't want to highlight the fact that there is

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Speaker 3: religious conflict in the world. We didn't create it. I mean,

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Speaker 3: you can't say Christians created the problem by being there.

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Speaker 3: That's blaming the victims. So what's happening is an expansionist

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Speaker 3: Islamist ideology with weapons produces the bloody borders of the caliphate.

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Speaker 3: And as the Americans had to do in the Middle East,

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Speaker 3: they hopefully they can help the Nigerians to do that.

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Speaker 3: Nigeria re establish law order and criminal ideologies cannot be

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Speaker 3: dealt with simply by telling him to stop.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, it's laughable. The New York Times this week

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Speaker 1: suggested that this was in a battle over land. It

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Speaker 1: was a land dispute. That's what's causing this, which is absurd.

431
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 1: It's clearly a genocide. You don't burn churches and burn

432
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: women and children in them for a land dispute. Sorry, okay.

433
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 1: I want to move on to the Holy Father's Palm

434
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: Sunday Mass at Saint Peter's and it ties into really

435
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: what the bishop in Nigeria is asking. He's asking for armaments. Meanwhile,

436
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: Pope Leo made a statement in his homily that generated

437
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,360
Speaker 1: a lot of discussion. I'll read you the quote, Jesus

438
00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: is the king of peace who rejects war, whom no

439
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,639
Speaker 1: one can use to justify war. He does not listen

440
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: to the prayers of those who wage war, but rejects them,

441
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:42,800
Speaker 1: drawing from Isaiah, even though you make many prayers, I

442
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: will not listen. Your hands are full of blood. End quote. Father.

443
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 1: The Pope seems to be directing this at Trump and

444
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: net and Yahoo. I think, but where does just war

445
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: doctrine come in here? And is the Holy Father making

446
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: a distinction that tradition supports. Is God pacifists?

447
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 3: You know, Christianity does not teach pacifism as the only

448
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 3: moral approach to a conflict between nations and peoples. Now,

449
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 3: the Pope is correct if he's talking about illegitimate offensive wars,

450
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 3: meaning wars of conquest, you know, wars of domination or extermination.

451
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 3: That's precisely what Putin launched on Ukraine. We can't forget

452
00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 3: that the Ukrainians are doing nothing immral when they fight back,

453
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 3: and it's not wrong to excel them arms. So you know,

454
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 3: when people hear those who wage war, God doesn't hear

455
00:25:32,280 --> 00:25:36,360
Speaker 3: their prayers. Well, God is not favoring those who try

456
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 3: to kill as in Ukraine, as the Hamas has Belah.

457
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:42,560
Speaker 3: You know, the Iranians launched a lot of missiles at

458
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 3: the Israelis during those conflicts, and the Israelis finally said enough.

459
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 3: So just war teaching remains appropriate. Precisely because let's say

460
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 3: the Italian government turned hostile and tried to ebade Vatican City. Well,

461
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 3: I hope we'd send in the Marines to defend the

462
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 3: holy places and rescue the Pope, because you know, people

463
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 3: cannot tolerate any kind of notion that warfare is bad.

464
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: Some warfare is necessary to stop illegitimate warfare by the enemy.

465
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:13,880
Speaker 1: I want to Bob, unless you have a quick comment there,

466
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: I was going to move on.

467
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 2: You want to add anything, No, I mean, I would

468
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: just say that that we're all uncertain about where things

469
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,520
Speaker 2: are going in Iran right now, and so it's understandable

470
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 2: that he has a certain hesitation about whether this war

471
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 2: is working out or not. But Father is exactly right.

472
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: We believe in the just use of force. You know,

473
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 2: the analogy that's often made is if a policeman stops

474
00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: a lunatic or somebody who's trying to murder another person

475
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 2: by using deadly force. Of course that's moral, and of

476
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 2: course there can be moral wars that are waged. War

477
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: is not like, you know, a police force that has

478
00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 2: very precise rules about when you can use force or

479
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: it worked by its very nature. Is you know, the

480
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 2: lug of war. It's harder to keep a lid on it,

481
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 2: but sometimes it's necessary. And I, as much as I

482
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 2: have my own doubts about what we've been doing those

483
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 2: nuclear weapons that Iran was trying to develop, it's simply

484
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: the case that the world cannot allow that, and I

485
00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 2: think that we have to have a realistic appraisal of that.

486
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:20,760
Speaker 2: In the Vatican.

487
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I want to move on to talk about

488
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 1: the Vatican how Pope Leo is reshaping it, as well

489
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: as the Roman Courier, which is the governing enterprise and

490
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 1: organization around him. Pope Leo's appointed Bishop Anthony Randazzo, he

491
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: was formerly the Bishop of Broken Bay. He's the new

492
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: Prefect of the Dicastry for Legislative Texts, and in January

493
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: he appointed Archbishop Carlo Roberto Maria Danelli, who is another

494
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: canon lawyer, as the new Secretary for the dicastry of

495
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 1: the clergy father. What are these curril appointments and reforms

496
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 1: suggest about the direction of Leo's pontificate.

497
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 3: Well, naming the Australian Bishop Rendazo is very interesting because

498
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 3: he had previously worked in the Congregation of the Doctrine

499
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:10,479
Speaker 3: of the Faith and he's an accomplished canon lawyer as

500
00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 3: a very good profile and reputation in Australia. And no,

501
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 3: he's a good man. I think he's going to do

502
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 3: a good job. We also had the replacement of the Sobstituto,

503
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 3: the substitute. He was replaced by a nuncio, So the

504
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 3: Pope is gradually replacing people. There are many more who

505
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: are over the retirement age, so we're getting an idea.

506
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 3: I think he obviously favors competence and the people he's appointing,

507
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,160
Speaker 3: and perhaps he has, you know, background knowledge of these

508
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: people from his own personal experience prior to becoming pope,

509
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 3: But there hadn't been the major shifts that would indicate,

510
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: you know, who are the leaders that he wants to

511
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 3: work with, such as who's going to be the new

512
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 3: Secretary of State and is he going to keep Cardinal

513
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 3: Fernandez at the doctrine of the faith. Those are really

514
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 3: the two prime nominations that we're waiting to see.

515
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, Bob, the Pope is set to meet Sarah Maalaley,

516
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: the new Archbishop of Canterbury, in April. Now she is

517
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: the first woman in history, obviously to hold that position.

518
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 1: What does that meeting mean besides cordiality and what does

519
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: it tell us about the Anglican Catholic dialogue that's been

520
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: going on for a long time.

521
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,080
Speaker 2: Well, on the latter point, I think it means it's

522
00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 2: good that dialogue is going nowhere, because it's even the

523
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 2: nomination of a woman to the Archbishop of Canterbury has

524
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: even created further splits within Anglicanism.

525
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 4: I mean, they've got that problem.

526
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 2: Look, this is going to be a very delicate meeting

527
00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 2: for the Pope because Okay, he's the kind of guy

528
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 2: that likes to be genial and welcoming, and he actually

529
00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,080
Speaker 2: is welcoming of He's welcoming of people who support the

530
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 2: traditional Latin Mass these days. But at the same time,

531
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: he's playing with fire here because we know that the

532
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: movement toward not only deaconesses, but the ordaining of women

533
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: inside the Catholic Church. This is a hot button issue

534
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 2: that he's going to have to keep.

535
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:08,480
Speaker 4: A lid on.

536
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,640
Speaker 2: And if he's not cautious about how he speaks about

537
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 2: this new woman Archbishop of Canterbury, it would give fuel

538
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: to some of the people that I think he doesn't

539
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 2: want to encourage. I'm not sure about that. But the

540
00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 2: appointments that we just have been talking about there, I

541
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 2: think they're very good. These are solid people. Randatsa from

542
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: Australia was a kind of a cardinal pell ally, which

543
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: I think is a very very good thing for Leo

544
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 2: to brought him into a high position in the Vatican.

545
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: So that competence and that orthodoxy on the part of

546
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 2: these people, that's all very encouraging. But of course there

547
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: still are a lot of questions.

548
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:44,959
Speaker 4: Yeah.

549
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 1: Here in the US, Father Mark, Bishop Mark Sites, the

550
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: head of the USCCB's Migration Committee, is calling the mass

551
00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 1: detention and deportation of migrants quote a grave moral evil.

552
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 1: Once again, the bishop seemed to be coming down on

553
00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: the rule of law and the law enforcement. Is it

554
00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 1: wrong to arrest criminal aliens or illegal aliens here in

555
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 1: the United States? And why do you think the bishops

556
00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: are so dogmatic with what remains in my view, maybe

557
00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: I'm wrong. You can correct me a prudential judgment.

558
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: I don't know why this bishop in particular is so

559
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,040
Speaker 3: insistent on his point of view, because that's not what

560
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 3: the Catholic Church teaches. The Church has never taught that

561
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 3: law enforcement, enforcing legitimate laws enacted by the competent authority

562
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 3: is an evil act. It is not an evil act

563
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 3: to detain someone who is illegally in the country, who

564
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 3: is either committed a crime or is accused of committing

565
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 3: a crime. They don't belong in this country in the

566
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 3: first place. Now, if they're being detained and not deported,

567
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 3: you know, that may be because of obstacles that ICE

568
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 3: is encountering in turning them to their country of origin.

569
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: We don't know. But as soon as we put the

570
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 3: word mass, you know mass detention is wrong. So my

571
00:32:06,760 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 3: next question, what about non mass detention? You know, can

572
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,959
Speaker 3: we hold twenty five criminals but not two fifty? You know,

573
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 3: I mean, this makes no sense. It's just not the

574
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 3: way it is. Now for Bishop's size in his defense,

575
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 3: I'll say this, you're entitled to say that detaining illegal aliens,

576
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: even if they're criminals, is wrong. Then you have to

577
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 3: go change the law. You have to convince the legislators

578
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 3: to adopt your point of view and change it, and

579
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 3: you're entitled to do that. It's a free country. But

580
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 3: you can't say that any for instance, any ICE official

581
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 3: working in that prison is abetting and evil. You can't

582
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 3: say that it's not true.

583
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

584
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're interesting distinctions and really important that you make them.

585
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: Father Cardinal Raymond Burke has spoken recently about patriotism, and

586
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: he's making the case that love of homeland is rooted

587
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 1: in God's divine providence and that we can't love humanity

588
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: in the abstract by failing to love the community God

589
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,760
Speaker 1: has given each of us. Bob, how do those two

590
00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: statements fit together.

591
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 4: Do you think?

592
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: Well?

593
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: I mean, it's been talked about, even in non religious

594
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 2: context that the love of humanity is you know, it's correct.

595
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 2: We should try to we should have a good will

596
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 2: towards all human beings because all human beings are made

597
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: in the image and likeness of God. But it's so

598
00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 2: universal it doesn't really have any strength, and it's much

599
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:32,680
Speaker 2: harder to get along with the people in your own household,

600
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: in your own neighborhood, in your own country, And it's true.

601
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: What the cardinal said is that God's providence places each

602
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: of us in a specific place. I mean, we all

603
00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:49,120
Speaker 2: have a responsibility individually and as the prayerful posse to

604
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: do things for the country, primarily the country that we're in,

605
00:33:52,360 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 2: and also.

606
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 4: The universal Church. But we know how are we.

607
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: Supposed to love people in I don't know Myanmar or Australia.

608
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 2: I mean, I wish well toward these people, but there's

609
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 2: no real concrete content to it. And in fact, I

610
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 2: mean one of the ways to think about nationalism is

611
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,320
Speaker 2: that everyone should be a nationalist, and that the internationalism

612
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: that we seek shouldn't be this abstraction that's somewhere out

613
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: there outside of every nation. It's the way that I

614
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 2: love my country. I understand why you love your country,

615
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:27,880
Speaker 2: and that's why we can talk with one another. I

616
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 2: recognize your attachment as you ought to recognize.

617
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 1: Mind well, I want to carve out a little I

618
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 1: love you to our Australian viewers, because I know we

619
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 1: have a lot of them. So I'm just saying, Bob,

620
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: I do love them, and you do too. Bishop Michael Martin,

621
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:47,399
Speaker 1: father of Charlotte, North Carolina, continues to wage his war

622
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: against traditional liturgy. He recently declared on a podcast that

623
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: the communion rail has no place in liturgical life of

624
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: the Novasorder of the New Mass. He also seemed troubled

625
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,719
Speaker 1: by the mutual enrichment of both rights that occurred during

626
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:04,040
Speaker 1: Pope Benedict's reign.

627
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 5: Watch this in those parishes where parishioners had been either

628
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 5: going to the Extraordinary form or going to the Novasorto,

629
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 5: they were coming to the communion rail because there was

630
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 5: some well, we do it when we have the Mass

631
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 5: this way, but maybe we should also be doing it

632
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 5: when we have the Mass this other way, you know.

633
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:35,840
Speaker 5: And so that had caused a reintroduction of the communion

634
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 5: rail into the liturgical life of the Novasorto. And that's

635
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 5: not what the norm calls for in the Novasorto. And

636
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,799
Speaker 5: so that's where the one had been influencing the other.

637
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: Father is a canon lawyer and a priest. What's the

638
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: basis of that claim? I mean, I know the novasorta

639
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 1: parish in northern Virginia that just installed a brand new

640
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 1: altar rail. They inaugurated its use on Palm Sunday without incident.

641
00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 1: There was no tragedy, nobody rend their garments and cried

642
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: why has Bishop Martin felt it necessary to make this

643
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 1: a new dogma if you will?

644
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:18,919
Speaker 3: In his diocese, well, Bishop Martin has displayed a disagreement

645
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: and hostility towards those who favor traditional ways in the Mass,

646
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 3: particularly the Tredentine Latin Mass, and then using traditional ways

647
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: such as kneeling for communion. Now, the American bishops have

648
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 3: stated that the ordinary position for receiving communion in the

649
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,719
Speaker 3: United States is standing. But there's but on the same

650
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,720
Speaker 3: time they have to affirm, which is what the Vatican

651
00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 3: has said, and they do that the right of the

652
00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 3: faithful to receive communion kneeling is not withdrawn. So putting

653
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 3: in a communion rail there's no liturgical or canonical law

654
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 3: against it. In fact, it's a charitable means to aid

655
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 3: those who wish to kneel down. And by the way,

656
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,000
Speaker 3: you can give communion to people standing at the altar rail,

657
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 3: which is what's done many places. So the fight against

658
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 3: the altar reality, he's made it into a symbol and

659
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,719
Speaker 3: of his approach to liturgy, which he thinks is what

660
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:13,239
Speaker 3: the Universal Church is requiring of the rest of us.

661
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 3: It's simply not the case it's not true. And I

662
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 3: would say to Bishop Martin, you know, excellency, for all

663
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 3: of your efforts to try and tell people what they

664
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,920
Speaker 3: have to do, just look at the law and respect it.

665
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 3: Because if you have a right, according to canon and

666
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 3: liturgical to kneel down, why would you interfere with that.

667
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:35,919
Speaker 3: You're not in a position to rewrite the law. Let

668
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 3: people do what they want. I don't see this minutia

669
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,960
Speaker 3: trying to direct people's lives in other areas in that diocese,

670
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 3: but in this one. Yes, it's a real shame.

671
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and particularly when you've got all these young people

672
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 1: crashing in the doors trying to get to that tradition

673
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: and that form. They want the reverence, and to deny

674
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: it to them just seems cruel and tone death Bob.

675
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:04,400
Speaker 1: In Cardinal Robert Sarah's most recent book, which is available

676
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,560
Speaker 1: only in French at the moment, it's called twenty fifty,

677
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: he has this to say about the traditional liturgy. He says,

678
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,960
Speaker 1: the abandonment or the suppression of the Tridentine mass, a

679
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,360
Speaker 1: right inherited from Saint Gregory the Great celebrated by so

680
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: many saints, would be an insult to tradition. Such a project,

681
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 1: if it were to be put into effect, would seem

682
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,400
Speaker 1: to me to be diabolical of a diabolical inspiration. It

683
00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 1: would be a desire to break with the Church of Christ,

684
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 1: of the Apostles of the Saints. Bob, your thoughts on

685
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 1: the cardinal's defensive tradition here, and why do you think

686
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 1: the traditional Latin Mass is still considered such a great threat?

687
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really puzzling, isident because people assume wrongly that

688
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,479
Speaker 2: if you were a supporter of the traditional Latin Mass,

689
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 2: that you reject everything that's happened since Vatican Two.

690
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 4: And we've talked about this many times, you.

691
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 2: Know, and I think it's just in practical terms, Cardinal

692
00:38:56,600 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 2: Sarah is correct that there's an acurring of course that

693
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 2: comes along with the traditional Latin Mass. And I think

694
00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: it would be actually a good idea to allow it

695
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 2: in every parish at times, because there are people who

696
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:13,000
Speaker 2: feel that that that is what really attaches them to

697
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 2: the depth of Catholicism. And as we see both in

698
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: the case of Bishop Martin and in the way that

699
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: the traditional Latin Mass was suppressed, it actually creates more

700
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 2: division in the Church than healing. What people seem to

701
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,280
Speaker 2: think is somehow resistance. It creates greater resistance because people

702
00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:39,000
Speaker 2: just feel like they're being bullied into into some type

703
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 2: of Catholicism that they don't necessarily have to be bullied into.

704
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: If they want to pursue that, that that's perfectly fine.

705
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,240
Speaker 2: But the Church is a big place and it's one

706
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: of the greatnesses of Catholicism is we affirm the proper

707
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: liberty of children, of of sons and daughters of God.

708
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 2: And a lot of that has to do with a

709
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 2: very personal way that we approach our worship of God.

710
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 2: So I just think that this is a non starter

711
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:11,280
Speaker 2: and is actually a negative, a negative, this denial of tradition.

712
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: Since we're in the midst of Holy Week, Father, I

713
00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: want to give a moment to Bishop Robert Baron's latest column,

714
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 1: and it's called even Judas Rethinking Sin, Despair and Divine Mercy.

715
00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: This poem Sunday, and Bishop Baron is asking whether there's

716
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: hope for Judas's salvation. He writes, we do, indeed have

717
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: to admit to the very real possibility of an eternal

718
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,880
Speaker 1: rejection of God. And yet Saint Pope John Paul I

719
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: insisted that the Church has never made a definitive statement

720
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 1: regarding whether any particular person is in Hell. And Pope

721
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: Benedict said that we should suspend judgment in regard to Judas,

722
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: committing him to the mercy and justice of God. I

723
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: am indeed insisting that God's mercy is greater than any

724
00:40:55,840 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: sin we could possibly commit, even the betrayal of Christ.

725
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 1: End quote Father, your reaction, and I mean, Jesus does

726
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 1: say better that that man had not been born of Judas.

727
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,760
Speaker 3: Yes, you know, to say that God's mercy is greater

728
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 3: than any sin doesn't mean that sin ceases to have consequences.

729
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 3: Because the mercy of God is given to those who

730
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 3: seek it. The mercy of God is not given to

731
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:25,319
Speaker 3: the unrepentant. You know, we have the parable of the

732
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 3: sheep and the goats, and the ones who were banished

733
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 3: into hell were the ones who died unrepentant for their sins. So, yes,

734
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 3: when the Lord said, you know, it would be better

735
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 3: for that man if he had never been born, you're

736
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:42,520
Speaker 3: saying so the fact that he came into existence is

737
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,480
Speaker 3: a worse thing, because his existence is now lost in

738
00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: all eternity in Hell. If he had never come into existence,

739
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,319
Speaker 3: there wouldn't be that you know, person in hell. That's

740
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 3: the way the Church has always interpreted it. Now it's true,

741
00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: the Church is never solemnly defined as someone's in hell

742
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 3: specific person as it does solemnly some people are in

743
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 3: heaven though. That's called canonization. So we count on the

744
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 3: mercy of God, and we need to be reminded of

745
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 3: it because many sinners will not go to confession because

746
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 3: they think they're unworthy and they've offended God so much

747
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,359
Speaker 3: that he can't help them. That's called despair, and that

748
00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 3: borders on the sin against the Holy Spirit, which again

749
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 3: is another sin that can't be forgiven because it means

750
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,280
Speaker 3: the sin of not thinking that you can be forgiven.

751
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,440
Speaker 3: But to this attitude that even Judas got into heaven

752
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 3: because God in the end doesn't really hold anybody accountable.

753
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 3: That's the Church doesn't teach that, And I don't think

754
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,200
Speaker 3: Bishop Baron is teaching that. He's just saying, maybe he

755
00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 3: got in. Well, the answer is maybe he did. But

756
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 3: the Church is never, in this common understanding of the

757
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: meaning of the scriptures, thought.

758
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 1: That, yeah, yeah, I want to move on to my

759
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,400
Speaker 1: favorite part of every prayerful posse, the ray of light segment.

760
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 1: We started out positive this week, let's end that way

761
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 1: a little least your joy. This story touches on what

762
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 1: we're doing, and Bob, you inadvertently or father in advertently

763
00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: mentioned it early on. According to Pew Research, forty five

764
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,279
Speaker 1: percent of Americans listen to religious radio or podcasts. Now look,

765
00:43:10,840 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 1: ninety eight percent of Americans live within range of a

766
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 1: religious radio station. Eight percent of those stations are Catholic,

767
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: and Catholic stations are almost entirely Take, Bob, what does

768
00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: it tell us that, in an age of TikTok and noise,

769
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 1: half of Americans are turning to religious programming? And are

770
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:32,400
Speaker 1: we part of something larger than just this humble podcast.

771
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: Well, Raymond, that's so obvious that we're having an enormous

772
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,080
Speaker 2: influence throughout the world that I don't even feel embarrassed

773
00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 2: to have to assert it.

774
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:41,760
Speaker 4: But it is true.

775
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:48,280
Speaker 2: Now, Look, there are great means for conveying information, conveying

776
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 2: conveying hope, conveying warnings. I mean, one of the things

777
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 2: I think, I very much love what Bishop Baron is doing.

778
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 2: He is the media champion of our time.

779
00:43:59,480 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 4: He's the full machine of our.

780
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: Day after the posse, of course, but we also need

781
00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:08,360
Speaker 2: to be reminded, you know that what we do matters,

782
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 2: and in fact, this is a liberating thing to know

783
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: that what each and every one of us does every

784
00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:16,880
Speaker 2: day in our interactions with other people and even with creation,

785
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 2: has enormous, has enormous effects in this world, and has

786
00:44:22,040 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 2: an eternal value. So I think that this is a

787
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 2: great tool when it's good. I listen to a lot

788
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 2: of radio and a lot of podcasts myself as much

789
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: as I can, although it's hard to carve out that

790
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: time in the car is a good place to do,

791
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: you know. I mean, that's really one of the best places.

792
00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: And I hear that from everyone. So look, there are

793
00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: good opportunities and let's take advantage of them.

794
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 4: Model yeah.

795
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: Father. In a twenty twenty six report by the Catholic Polls,

796
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: though a majority of Catholics do not go to confession,

797
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: more and more Catholics are expressing openness to return to

798
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 1: the sacrament. Obviously, it's suffered for decades neglect. Are you

799
00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 1: seeing a renewed interest and what do you make of

800
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 1: the willingness to return to this vital sacrament?

801
00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 3: Well, I have seen some signs of it here in

802
00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:14,799
Speaker 3: New York. I certainly see signs when they have like

803
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:19,880
Speaker 3: the Seek convention, you know for the focused college students,

804
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 3: where they have to have you know, I don't know

805
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 3: if it's hundreds of priests, but probably hearing confessions for

806
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 3: hours on end, So people do seek pardon. You know,

807
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,880
Speaker 3: deep down, every one of us knows we've done something wrong.

808
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 3: You know, it could be small, it could be great.

809
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 3: And neuroses happen when we try to deny it. So

810
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:39,880
Speaker 3: people who don't want to become neurotics say, well, I

811
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:42,439
Speaker 3: bet to solve this problem. Catholic Church shows I would

812
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,919
Speaker 3: say solution here. You know, it's called the confessional. And

813
00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 3: so the bright thing in the Catholic Church is that

814
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:52,719
Speaker 3: we don't pretend we don't. We don't live in the

815
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 3: make believe world where you take out a little wand

816
00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 3: some magic dust makes everybody happy. What you say to

817
00:45:58,040 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 3: him is get down on your knees, tell your sins.

818
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 3: Then you're going to be happy because the priest has

819
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 3: told you the words that only he can say, I

820
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: absolve you from your sins. When those words have said,

821
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 3: there's a joy, and that joy and happiness is experienced.

822
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 3: You know, I particularly think that in our own age

823
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:17,279
Speaker 3: in which you know, let's say, common media and the

824
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 3: common entertainment venues are so disdainful of what really is

825
00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 3: important in life. They more or less tell people, if

826
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,320
Speaker 3: you're not rich, thin and attractive.

827
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: Your life is worthless.

828
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,040
Speaker 3: What does a Catholic church say? Everybody is a son

829
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:33,880
Speaker 3: or daughter of God. God loves you and he doesn't

830
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 3: mind that you committed sins because he wants to forgive you.

831
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 4: He doesn't want you.

832
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 3: To do the sins, but he doesn't say, once you

833
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 3: have sinned, I don't want to see you anymore. In

834
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 3: the secular world, you put on some weight, you lose

835
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 3: your smile, you're off TV. You know, that's that, and

836
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:48,879
Speaker 3: that's the kind of world.

837
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:49,120
Speaker 4: Pew.

838
00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:51,360
Speaker 3: I'm amazed at how many people live in the trivial

839
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 3: notion that appearance and is the cause of happiness in life.

840
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:55,319
Speaker 3: It's not.

841
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's a great perspective. And you know, the release.

842
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 1: I was in a long line earlier this week in

843
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,200
Speaker 1: Holy Week, and to see a long line of people

844
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,839
Speaker 1: in the middle of the day and the relief, the

845
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:11,120
Speaker 1: release that you can see on them as they exit

846
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 1: the confessional, that's always a great image and one that

847
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 1: we rarely see I guess you see it, Father, but

848
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 1: most don't. So thank you for sharing the insight. A

849
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:23,240
Speaker 1: happy Holy Week in Easter to both of you. Grateful

850
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 1: to you all as always, and look. If you want

851
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the

852
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 1: Arroyo Grande channel on YouTube or the podcast or Royal

853
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,160
Speaker 1: Grande wherever you get yours. On the haff of Robert

854
00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 1: Royal Father Gerald Murray, until the Posse rides again, stay

855
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 1: the course, follow the light. I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll see

856
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 1: you next time. Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with

857
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,319
Speaker 1: DP Studios and iHeart Podcasts, and it's available on the

858
00:47:48,320 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio Apple wherever you get your podcasts.

859
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 4: US spoke as Broakistanish