WEBVTT - Of Sound Mind and Memory 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:03.640 We haven't been vocal. 0:00:04.280 --> 0:00:08.639 We haven't said how can America, how can they release 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:14.960 the guys from Guantanamo Bay who have committed the same crimes, 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:19.560 if not worse, placing them back in the same environment 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:21.959 that they committed their crimes in. 0:00:25.160 --> 0:00:28.160 Since the start of the US Afghan War, roughly seven 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:30.920 hundred and eighty alleged war criminals have been held at 0:00:30.920 --> 0:00:36.040 the American military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. Today, the 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:41.239 number of detainees is just below fifty. Meanwhile, back Stateside, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:44.479 staff Sergeant Robert Bales is currently serving a life sentence 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:45.519 without parole. 0:00:46.080 --> 0:00:48.200 The part about the Gitmo that bothers me so much 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:54.000 is the legality versus the morality or the logic of it. Right, 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:57.320 so we legally there is an argument that these people 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:02.080 are being detained without trial. I understand that argument, and 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.039 I understand that I've had a trial. But what you're 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.559 saying is these people in Guantanamo Bay are innocent. That's 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:14.040 not the case. These are the worst people that we 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.160 detained over a fifteen year period that ended up in GITMO. 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:21.040 And I could sit in prison forever if we'd have 0:01:21.080 --> 0:01:24.160 left the Guantanamo Bay. Guys stay down there because I 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:28.000 can understand. Look, that's justice. They're doing their time, but 0:01:28.160 --> 0:01:30.160 you let them go. So now that you've let them go, 0:01:30.680 --> 0:01:33.959 let us go. Give us the same damn clemency. Give 0:01:34.040 --> 0:01:37.039 us the same opportunity of having a life outside of 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.240 here that you've already given the terrorists. 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.360 Previously, on the War Within, staff Sergeant Robert Bales told 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:51.440 the military court his rampage was premeditated and without justification. 0:01:51.520 --> 0:01:54.720 In high school's cabinet, the football team, you take lots 0:01:54.720 --> 0:01:55.160 of hits. 0:01:55.320 --> 0:01:57.600 Bob wanted to make sure everyone was protected. It's a 0:01:57.680 --> 0:02:00.360 guerrilla war. How do you know who you're talking with? 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:04.400 Haji Wazir, He's the gentleman with the Taliban fighter tattoo. 0:02:04.800 --> 0:02:06.920 These are not innocent people to begin with. 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:07.800 We have the. 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:11.840 Evidence some of the Afghan witnesses left their fingerprints on 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:12.800 bomb parts. 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:14.280 They took up to Disneyland. 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:18.160 For God's sake, I'm Mike McGinnis. This is the War 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:31.200 within the Robert Bayles story. In the last episode, Robert 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.320 Bales and John Maher walked us through their belief that 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:38.240 some of Bales's victims were members of the Taliban in 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:42.359 their minds. This information completely changes the context of his case. 0:02:43.320 --> 0:02:47.639 We also showed the Afghan families themselves passionately refuting these 0:02:47.680 --> 0:02:51.960 Taliban connections. Many of the people we interviewed were not 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:55.440 convinced that the Afghans were guilty of anything. One of 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:59.520 their strongest defenders was Bales's prosecutor, Lieutenant Colonel J. Morse. 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:03.320 We had the State Department, we had the Department of Defense, 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:06.839 we had the FBI, all on searches, and we found 0:03:06.880 --> 0:03:09.600 no evidence that any of these guys were Taliban. I 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:13.080 mean they were literally all farmers. There was no evidence, literally, 0:03:13.120 --> 0:03:15.679 not a single piece of evidence. There was nothing in 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:18.600 any of these houses that could be construed as even 0:03:18.600 --> 0:03:22.800 having them be Taliban sympathizers. Bales was walking around for 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:27.919 five hours like shooting people. He wasn't opposed once. I 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.240 mean he literally was walking on open roads and nobody 0:03:31.280 --> 0:03:32.120 confronted him once. 0:03:33.160 --> 0:03:35.960 Bailes was working with the same intel as everybody else. 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:40.880 Special Forces Captain Danny Fields, the commanding officer at the base, 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:43.960 doesn't think that this information was strong enough could draw 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:44.960 any conclusions. 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.080 I think that's a convenient truth that helps fit that 0:03:49.200 --> 0:03:53.040 narrative for him. But we being the team actually gathering 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:55.440 the intel on the ground. You know, I don't think 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.240 we had any specific intelligence that definitively said that any 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.240 of the people that he killed was a Taliban target. 0:04:04.120 --> 0:04:07.520 We had some theories and assumptions at best. There was 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.800 no piece of evidence, even collectively, that we could gather 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:13.720 and say, hey, we should target this compound. 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:15.120 I mean, even if. 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:17.240 We gather all the intelligence, we couldn't have probably fit 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:18.040 that puzzle together. 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.560 Fields and more spoth say variations of the same thing. 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:25.440 There was no evidence, but Baiales and his attorney John 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.000 Maher have pointed out specific pieces of evidence which to 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:34.560 then indicate Taliban connections and American collusion in covering them up. 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:40.799 The United States, in my assessment, has had this position 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:46.040 where every Afghan is innocent, and I don't believe that 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:50.240 is in tune with what we know with our intelligence. 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.279 You can be a village eldern you can also be 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:57.880 a jihadist. They're not exclusive. And the whole idea in 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.719 these cases that I've handled in in variably the United 0:05:01.720 --> 0:05:04.520 States has to biometric evidence, and it's in the register. 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.320 Biometrics are the most basic understanding that all of us 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:14.760 have of It is like fingerprints, facial images, iris, scans 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:18.800 and DNA. Those are all your body metrics. 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:24.200 American journalist Annie Jacobsen researched biometrics extensively for her book, 0:05:24.600 --> 0:05:28.360 First Platoon and the Process. She learned that it was 0:05:28.400 --> 0:05:32.839 actually quite common for Afghans, Taliban or otherwise to have 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:35.240 their DNA enrolled in what is called the bats and 0:05:35.360 --> 0:05:36.440 Hides system. 0:05:36.760 --> 0:05:39.440 The goal of the United States Defense Department was to 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:44.520 create a massive biometric catalog of eighty five percent of 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:47.760 the population of Afghanistan. Everyone in there was either a 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:49.760 good guy or a bad guy in air quotes right. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:52.320 The conceit of the Defense Department was, if we know 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:56.200 who everyone is, and we have a platoon out there 0:05:56.720 --> 0:06:01.200 walking into a dangerous area, and some one comes across 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:03.800 our path and we want to make sure he doesn't 0:06:03.880 --> 0:06:09.280 kill us, let's stop him, take his IRIS scans, and 0:06:09.400 --> 0:06:13.560 have this small machine tell us whether he's friend or Oh, 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:17.680 how much can go wrong within that system? We can 0:06:17.720 --> 0:06:18.960 talk about that for powers. 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.600 Jacobson is a vocal critic of relying on biometric evidence 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:30.360 during wartime. She considers the methodology to be imprecise. 0:06:31.560 --> 0:06:37.240 Biometric systems are significant and powerful in a country whereby 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:43.240 rule of law and a justice system is working in 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:50.280 a democratic manner, and biometric systems. In a country like Afghanistan, 0:06:50.320 --> 0:06:53.880 where there is no state, it's just simply anarchy. It's 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:59.479 impossible to even begin to try and use science and 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:05.960 technology tools to promote justice because the very fundamentals of 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:07.800 justice don't exist. 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:08.800 Ever. 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:12.160 See an FBI crime scene, you know that yellow tape, 0:07:12.480 --> 0:07:16.280 you know, all the scientists with gloves. Why because they 0:07:16.440 --> 0:07:18.800 must preserve the evidence. 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:20.840 So the very idea that you could be. 0:07:20.840 --> 0:07:24.480 Running around a warth here being shot at and also 0:07:24.760 --> 0:07:29.280 trying to use these tools that are fundamentally based in 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:33.400 preserving a crime scene, it just opens the door for 0:07:33.480 --> 0:07:34.720 so many problems. 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.640 I mean, Andy, Like just from my own personal experience, 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:40.000 you know, we had a guy blow himself up with 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:41.760 an ID and they told us just to go out 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:43.720 and get a finger. You know that only had like 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:45.800 half the tip left, and that's what they ran through 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.240 bats and hides, right, And. 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:49.680 I hate to be so graphic, but how do you 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.000 know that's the finger of the guy who blew himself up? 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.160 What if it's the finger of a nearby farmer who 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:56.480 got caught in the crossfire. 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:04.400 More, even if the biometric information is gathered properly, it 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:08.120 might be used incorrectly later on, especially when dealing with 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:09.240 common names. 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.840 In every culture, there are names that are incredibly similar 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:18.520 John Smith, right if you use the example of John Smith. 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.640 If I take the biometrics of John Smith, and we 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.400 know who he is at a cellular level, and we 0:08:25.520 --> 0:08:28.440 just say, okay, John Smith stand right there, and you 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:32.320 have another individual across the country whose name happens to 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:36.600 be John Smith. When you have crafty defense attorneys, it's 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.640 a bit like you know the old games at the carnivals, 0:08:39.640 --> 0:08:42.679 where someone's moving the cups of the ball underneath. They're 0:08:42.720 --> 0:08:45.319 just simply moving John Smith number one to John Smith 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:47.480 number two and calling them john Smith. 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:53.520 Consider that premise of names intentionally or accidentally being switched around. 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.280 As Robert Bales reads a biometric report he obtained on Rofiula, 0:08:58.200 --> 0:09:00.559 a villager of Alakosi who served as a weakness in 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:05.239 the trial whose voice you've heard in this podcast, Rafiula 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:05.800 doesn't have. 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:06.360 A last name. 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:11.360 Rafiuola was enrolled in the biometrics system on nine March, 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:14.920 when number Bravo to Juliet Kilo mic Hotell eighty three. 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.320 An idea even occurred on twenty eight October in Panduak. 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:21.800 The idea event has references twelve thirty five thirty eight 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:25.160 The Army Master Rafula this event four days after his 0:09:25.280 --> 0:09:28.360 enrollment thirteen March. But you were bringing him into the 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:30.440 country to testify against me. 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.160 Well, you always have to take people on a case 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:39.360 by case basis. But the challenge with biometrics is that 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:45.440 most people in the Western world, they have been educated 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:54.040 to perceive science and technology as impeccable, as flawless, even 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:57.679 many people have watched too many episodes of CSI. 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.600 Asked Attorney John Maher about Annie Jacobson's work and inquired 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.520 about just how conclusive his allegations against the Afghan villagers 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:10.760 could be given the possible limitations of the bats and 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:11.679 hide system. 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:15.040 Detractors are not off putting to me at all. Detractors 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:18.880 I don't think understand biometrics. I read Annie Jacobson's book, 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.160 I gave her interviews, and she just came out with 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:26.160 what she believes the story should be. Now, she may 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:30.960 have found misspellings or last names incorrectly, but you know what, 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.160 I believe that's one person. And I sat with her 0:10:35.160 --> 0:10:37.280 and I disagreed. I said, Annie, I don't think you 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:39.480 have an understanding of this. One of the things I 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:44.440 don't think any may have fully and intellectually flexibly embraced 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:52.679 was this technology. It's as simple as fingerprints. 0:10:51.280 --> 0:11:00.800 And blood and skin. That's all it is. Robert Bayles 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.000 and John Mayer had more to their case than just 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:06.839 the bats and hides data. Baals also pulled one hundred 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.920 and sixty pounds VIDs out of Haiji Mohammad Wazir's home, 0:11:10.480 --> 0:11:13.360 a major reason why Bales targeted Wazir. On March eleventh, 0:11:13.600 --> 0:11:18.720 twenty twelve, Your wife Satal, an Afghan journalist working in 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:22.120 concert with our production, uncovered the following information when he 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:27.680 interviewed a villager from Ala Kozai, Haji Mohammed Naim. 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:31.240 No Tlulu, most of us had enemies in our villages. 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:35.160 One of Haji Wazir's farmers placed a mine under a 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:36.280 mulberry tree. 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.520 Presumably that's the same mind that blew off an American 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:43.440 soldier's leg several days before the attack. 0:11:46.320 --> 0:11:49.800 These enemies told the American forces that it was actually 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:52.520 Haji Wazir's son who planted the mine. 0:11:54.480 --> 0:11:57.920 So these enemies were giving false reports to the Americans. 0:11:58.360 --> 0:12:03.840 Yes, they gave the American forces the wrong person. After that, 0:12:03.920 --> 0:12:08.840 the American troops attacked our villages. Now eleven people from 0:12:08.840 --> 0:12:13.120 Hadji Wazir's family have been martyred. He no longer has 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:14.479 young sons. 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:21.079 According to Naim, the insinuation is this Baals used incomplete 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:24.320 information to deduce that Wazir was working with the enemy. 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:27.560 There might have been bombs in Wazir's house, but they 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.960 didn't belong to him. However, Wazir is also notable for 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:36.079 supposedly having a Taliban tattoo on his hand, another important 0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:39.640 piece of evidence. Here's Lieutenant Colonel Moorese on that point. 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:42.760 The last guy with the hand tattoo. This is the 0:12:42.760 --> 0:12:45.280 guy who had over ten of his family members were murdered. 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:48.960 He had three or four tattoos on his hands, and 0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:53.240 we asked about him. There was no evidence. Again, we 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:55.240 did our research. We worked with both the FBI and 0:12:55.240 --> 0:12:57.880 the State Department, and nobody had any problems with that 0:12:57.880 --> 0:12:58.880 guy's tattoos. 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:02.280 Morse also had as an explanation for what another potentially 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:06.160 suspicious Afghan, Mulla Baran, might have been doing to land 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.440 himself in a detention center in Parwan. 0:13:09.600 --> 0:13:12.960 One of the witnesses was held up in customs in 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:16.520 the US because he came through as having spent a 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.360 day in one of the prisons in Afghanistan, and he 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:23.960 had been brought in with about sixty other people because 0:13:24.000 --> 0:13:27.040 they were harvesting one of the poppy fields, and so 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:29.360 he spent a day in there and left. That was it. 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:35.359 If Afghan civilians like Mulla Baran and Hadji Wazir were Taliban, 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.959 then flying them to the United States on commercial airlines 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:44.800 to testify against an American soldier is a decision that 0:13:44.840 --> 0:13:46.400 can certainly be scrutinized. 0:13:46.960 --> 0:13:48.800 If people knew that the Taliban was sitting in an 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:52.959 American courtroom, or terrorists or you know, jihadis or bomb makers, 0:13:53.640 --> 0:13:55.640 I think that they might have had a little bit 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.520 of a different view of the prosecution. How dare you 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:01.880 flew Herman Goring into an America courtroom? I don't think 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:02.560 we played like that. 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.800 But if the Afghans are telling the truth and these 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:10.640 supposed Taliban ties aren't legit, then their travel itinerary becomes 0:14:10.640 --> 0:14:14.360 somewhat of a non issue. We broached that subject with Morse. 0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:17.920 The Afghans they flew commercial correct. 0:14:17.679 --> 0:14:19.280 Oh yeah, we flew commercial the whole way. 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.160 Were they able to travel around the United States, And 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:24.080 like one report had them going to like disney World 0:14:24.160 --> 0:14:26.080 or SeaWorld or something like that while they were here. 0:14:26.160 --> 0:14:30.200 So the Disney World issue was when we had the 0:14:30.240 --> 0:14:33.920 youngest girl who was injured shot in the head. I 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.880 thought she was going to die. She went to San 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.840 Diego Naval Hospital. One of the times she was there, 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.880 someone escorted her and her father to I don't think 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:47.000 it was Disneyland. I think it was one of the 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.240 other parks down there. It wasn't US, and it wasn't 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:51.080 the government. They paid for it with their own money. 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:53.800 But the only reason anyone knows that is because I 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.240 had our team disclose it to make sure that the 0:14:57.240 --> 0:14:58.960 defense knew that this had happened. 0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:03.440 Morest vehemently denies the implication that any of the victims 0:15:03.640 --> 0:15:06.320 who he brought to the United States were allied with 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:08.960 the enemy, but it's hard to blame Bales for asking 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:12.880 the question. In a place like Panjue, parsing the difference 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:16.400 between friend and foe was a challenge, As Private James 0:15:16.440 --> 0:15:20.440 Alexander explained in Episode one, the soldiers at VSP Bellumbai 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.520 had troubled tracking the complicated allegiances many villagers. Back in 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:26.320 twenty twelve, the. 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.520 Guy that lived near us was called peg leg Right, 0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:31.080 And for the longest time, we're thinking this guy is 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:34.080 like a friendly dude, and come to find out he 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:37.880 actually was like giving information to the Taliban. We hired 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:40.640 workers onto our base to help build stairs. 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:41.800 Two brothers. 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.600 Turns out they were Taliban, right, and so it's like 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.280 it's like, Okay, these dudes are all around us and 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:51.960 we can't even figure out who is right who is wrong. 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.960 It is conceivable that a Taliban operative was among those 0:15:56.040 --> 0:16:00.480 killed on March eleventh, twenty twelve, but the women children, 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:04.920 at least they were innocent. There was no clear military 0:16:04.960 --> 0:16:06.080 reason for them to die. 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.880 If any of these guys were Taliban, it wouldn't be 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:12.360 relevant to me, and it wouldn't be relevant to the 0:16:12.440 --> 0:16:15.400 law or the case either. Even if somebody came back 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.320 later and said, Hey, actually this guy was Taliban or 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.400 this guy's uncle or brother or whatever it was Taliban, 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:22.400 I would still say that that has nothing to do 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:25.520 with Bail's actions. That presents no viable defense. 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.920 Curdisgrace has experienced fighting in Panshwe he agrees with Morse. 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:35.400 That changes nothing for me. These are non combatants, They're unarmed, 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.480 they're not presently engaged with you. You went, you hunted 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:37.960 them down. 0:16:37.840 --> 0:16:38.560 And you shot them. 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.960 Bobby Bails didn't have the power and decision making authority 0:16:42.000 --> 0:16:43.080 to put bullets in their heads. 0:16:43.760 --> 0:16:46.400 In the US military, the chain of command is sacred. 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:51.120 In our interview with John Mayer, when it Bails's fiercest advocates, 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:54.880 we asked whether Baals even had the authority to take 0:16:54.920 --> 0:17:01.520 on this self imposed mission. Let's say, at among the 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:06.400 victims there were Taliban members, there were bomb makers. Bales 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.560 would still have to get you know, I had to 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:10.920 call an approval for fires. You know, as a weapon 0:17:10.960 --> 0:17:13.240 squad leader, Bals would have to do the same thing. 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.520 So why is that a sticking point or why is 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:18.400 that something you kind of bring up is that they 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.879 had these connections. But even though he still kind of 0:17:20.920 --> 0:17:25.560 went around, you know, that approval to engage the enemy like. 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:28.640 That, I think it's fine question. Even though they might 0:17:28.680 --> 0:17:32.040 be Tailorman, they're sleeping in their house, Bales was went 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:35.600 out with guns and AMMO, and the killings arguably were 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:38.560 not justified killings, were murders. 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:42.760 Bales and Marr want the public to know about the 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:47.120 possible links between the victims and the Taliban. However, when 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.760 it comes to getting a new trial, it can't be 0:17:49.960 --> 0:17:52.800 at the core of their legal defense. Mar said it 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:57.840 himself the killings were murders. As a result, the defense 0:17:57.880 --> 0:18:01.680 attorneys determined to shift the focus to Robert Bales's brain. 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:07.080 Where the justification comes in is this, Bales was in 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:09.359 one of the houses and a kid came from behind 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.040 a door and smashed him in the head with a shovel. 0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:16.000 Bales was nonplus, just turn around, shot him in the face. Now, 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:18.720 you're tough guy, Mike, I know that. And Bales is 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:22.040 too taking a blow to the head you know, a shovel. 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:26.080 I mean, are you really in your right mind? Bales 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.840 would very much like us to candidly proceed with the 0:18:29.920 --> 0:18:34.359 war crime stuff rather than the mental health stuff, because 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:39.040 that's his sense of ego, of identity. He is not 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.200 the guy who's going to be looking to be characterized 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:43.080 or portrayed as a. 0:18:43.119 --> 0:18:51.399 Victim traumatic brain injury TBI. It's a common diagnosis for 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.960 soldiers who have seen combat. We spoke to the directors 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.080 of Bringing Injury Research and Medicine from Mount Sinai Hospital 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:00.680 in New York City. To learn more about these pervasive 0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:05.600 injuries that are plaguing US military veterans, here doctors Miguel 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:07.560 Escalonne and Kristen Damse O'Connor. 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:12.320 A traumatic brain injury can happen when there is an 0:19:12.440 --> 0:19:18.920 external force to the head, face, or neck that results 0:19:19.040 --> 0:19:24.040 in either a loss of consciousness or an alteration and 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:25.000 mental status. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.520 It could be from me falling and hitting my head. 0:19:27.960 --> 0:19:30.960 It could be from somebody punching me. It could be 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:33.760 from a projectile that would be like a bullet or 0:19:34.280 --> 0:19:38.160 a knife. Basically anything outside of my body. Any force 0:19:38.240 --> 0:19:41.760 that causes my brain to get bruised directly or punctured 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.560 or jostled around in my head would be a traumatic 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:45.119 brain injury. 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:50.280 Some of the acute symptoms that could be noticeable after 0:19:50.720 --> 0:19:56.440 a traumatic brain injury can include things like disorientation, confusion, 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:59.919 changes with vision, difficulty with. 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:07.800 Balance, trouble sleeping, memory, agitation, maybe nightmares. Patients have dysregulation 0:20:07.880 --> 0:20:11.879 and mood. They might snap at people and do things 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:13.480 like that that are out of the ordinary. 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.840 And it's the milder injuries that pose much greater challenge 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:20.520 to clinicians attempting to diagnose them. 0:20:21.000 --> 0:20:26.240 TBIs often go unrecognized and untreated in the military because, 0:20:26.920 --> 0:20:30.720 unlike with external injuries, it's extremely hard to tell when 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.479 you've gotten more. As doctor Escalone explains. 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.800 I call it an invisible disability. If I said somebody 0:20:37.840 --> 0:20:40.159 took a baseball bat to your knee, and then I said, well, 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:42.000 guess what, your knee's not going to work. You're gonna 0:20:42.040 --> 0:20:44.480 lamp and it's going to be pained the rest of 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.080 your life, you'd say, Okay, that makes sense. But if 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:50.320 I say the same about a brain injury, it doesn't 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.399 compute the same way, but it's the same idea. You know, 0:20:53.560 --> 0:20:56.040 like your brain just can't. It's not built to take 0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:56.960 that kind of punishment. 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:03.600 The doctors from Mount Sinai have never met Bails, Even so, 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.280 their experience suggests that his brain have spent a lifetime 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:11.919 taking serious punishment. After all, long before the staff sergeant 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:14.280 enlisted in the Armed Forces, he spent much of his 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:15.840 childhood playing tackle football. 0:21:16.680 --> 0:21:19.919 There is research to suggest that, especially if a person 0:21:20.160 --> 0:21:24.879 starts playing full contact football early in life, that the 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:31.840 risk for later life functional decline is greater. Football tends 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:37.639 to involve repetitive exposure to head trauma, and even when 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:42.119 those repetitive hits to the head never result in a 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:48.440 clinically diagnosed concussion, the risk for development of later life 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:52.120 clinical symptoms appears to increase. 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:56.880 Our collective understanding of concussions and their effects is much 0:21:56.880 --> 0:21:59.119 better today than it used to be. Back when Bales 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:02.719 was playing high school football in Norwood, Ohio, We're taking 0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:04.800 and delivering big hits was just part. 0:22:04.640 --> 0:22:05.080 Of the game. 0:22:06.080 --> 0:22:08.600 The best I had in eighth grade, I'll never forget 0:22:08.640 --> 0:22:12.680 it was screen pass and I very much knocked the 0:22:12.760 --> 0:22:15.240 kid out and I was knocked out to I walked 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.600 to the wrong huddle. I got up, staggered back to 0:22:17.600 --> 0:22:19.720 the wrong huddle, you know, kind of get turned around. 0:22:19.800 --> 0:22:23.000 You know. We kept playing and my bells run, you know. 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.080 Late eighties, early nineties, I don't think it was as 0:22:26.160 --> 0:22:28.800 much of a concern that now looking back, and I 0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:32.520 think I had a few concussions, but at the time, 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:33.880 nobody knew about it. 0:22:34.240 --> 0:22:38.040 Growing up, they all spent seven years playing organized football. 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:42.960 Then after nine to eleven, he spent another decade in 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:47.639 the Army. During his service, Bob was exposed to numerous 0:22:47.760 --> 0:22:50.920 ied plasts as his wife Carrie can a test. 0:22:52.119 --> 0:22:54.760 He told me that he had been blown up nine 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:58.160 times in a striker vehicle. I never got a call home, 0:22:58.240 --> 0:23:00.560 but he'd been blown up. But he didn't get any 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:03.359 purple hearts because he survived. There are many people that 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:06.080 got purple hearts for TBI right for being in a 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.240 striker vehicle that blew up. But he's like, no, I 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:12.000 didn't sign up for it because I survived and it 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:12.960 was just part of the job. 0:23:14.760 --> 0:23:18.200 An explosion doesn't have to kill or dismember in order 0:23:18.240 --> 0:23:22.399 to be physically devastating. David Wesley served with Bales on 0:23:22.440 --> 0:23:25.520 two deployments in Iraq during the mid two thousands. 0:23:27.240 --> 0:23:29.720 On our first employment, I was on the truck that 0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.720 drove Bob, so every time I got hit, he got hit. 0:23:34.240 --> 0:23:37.280 Those are our fun experiences, man. I'll tell you what 0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:40.280 I remember. I was getting hit by an ID and 0:23:40.320 --> 0:23:43.480