WEBVTT - Kim Gordon 0:00:15.476 --> 0:00:22.956 Pushkin. At seventy years old, Kim Gordon, the former bassist 0:00:22.956 --> 0:00:26.116 and founding member of Sonic Youth, is somehow making the 0:00:26.156 --> 0:00:30.476 most abrasive music of her career right now. This month, 0:00:30.556 --> 0:00:33.276 she dropped her second solo album, called The Collective, with 0:00:33.396 --> 0:00:37.036 producer Justin Raisin, who's previously worked with artists like Drake 0:00:37.196 --> 0:00:41.916 Loyati and Charlie XCX. Kim's spoken word like vocals on 0:00:41.956 --> 0:00:45.716 The Collective are the perfect accompaniment to Justin's distorted trap 0:00:45.756 --> 0:00:49.556 style beats, especially on her first single, bye Bye, which 0:00:49.796 --> 0:01:06.276 was originally intended for rapper Playboy Carti Cotish. On today's episode, 0:01:06.356 --> 0:01:09.396 Lee Rose talks to Kim Gordon about her latest solo album, 0:01:09.476 --> 0:01:11.796 as well as her memoir Girl in a Band, that 0:01:11.876 --> 0:01:14.956 detailed her very public split with ex husband Thurston Moore. 0:01:15.796 --> 0:01:17.996 Kim also delves into why she always felt like an 0:01:17.996 --> 0:01:21.236 outsider in New York City's thriving downtown art scene, and 0:01:21.316 --> 0:01:24.596 recalls Sonic Youth's story tour in the early nineties. Opening 0:01:24.676 --> 0:01:30.836 up for Neil Young. This is broken record liner notes 0:01:30.876 --> 0:01:34.556 for the Digital Age. I'm Justin Mitchman. Here's Leah Rose's 0:01:34.596 --> 0:01:38.436 conversation with Kim Gordon I saw. 0:01:38.196 --> 0:01:41.196 That you're getting ready to play some shows to support 0:01:41.236 --> 0:01:46.276 the new album. How are you going to translate the 0:01:46.356 --> 0:01:48.956 album or the songs or the new music to the stage. 0:01:48.996 --> 0:01:49.956 What are you guys thinking? 0:01:50.396 --> 0:01:54.356 Well, this is so it'll be the same group of 0:01:54.436 --> 0:01:57.356 girls that I toured the last record with, but the 0:01:57.476 --> 0:02:00.676 drummer will have probably have some kind of hybrid kit, 0:02:01.436 --> 0:02:06.876 so she'll be uh what she'll be doing, She'll be playing, 0:02:06.916 --> 0:02:10.836 like you know, some of the beats and then sampling stuff. 0:02:10.876 --> 0:02:14.636 I guess, uh huh. Same with a guitar player and 0:02:14.676 --> 0:02:20.276 the bass player. They're all very technologically savvy. I'm kind 0:02:20.316 --> 0:02:23.996 of the only one who has sent and then there'll 0:02:24.036 --> 0:02:27.836 be some things on backing tracks that we just can't reproduce. 0:02:28.636 --> 0:02:31.596 And for the actual for the recording of the songs, 0:02:32.276 --> 0:02:34.236 were you playing with a live band or was it 0:02:34.276 --> 0:02:37.556 mostly okay, it's mostly programmed stuff. 0:02:37.756 --> 0:02:42.076 It was it was basically me and Justin Raisin. He 0:02:42.196 --> 0:02:44.796 was my collaborator. Like I said, I wanted to have 0:02:44.916 --> 0:02:47.916 more beats on this record, and he would basically send 0:02:47.916 --> 0:02:50.836 me beats. Like I talked about what sort of you know, 0:02:51.036 --> 0:02:54.396 hip hop I liked, and I'm sort of inspired by 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:58.196 rhythm because I'm not a very melodic singer in my 0:02:58.276 --> 0:03:02.796 range as kind of limits it, let's just say. Anyway, 0:03:02.836 --> 0:03:06.836 So he would make up beats with some sounds and 0:03:07.076 --> 0:03:08.636 send it to me, and I would decide what I 0:03:08.636 --> 0:03:11.836 thought I could work on, and then I would go 0:03:11.916 --> 0:03:15.996 in and make up guitar parts in the studio and 0:03:17.116 --> 0:03:20.716 lay down some vocals, and usually start out with some 0:03:20.796 --> 0:03:24.276 of the songs I had complete lyrics, but I still 0:03:24.276 --> 0:03:25.956 didn't know how I was going to place them, you know, 0:03:26.276 --> 0:03:30.276 And then other songs I would have, you know, half lyrics, 0:03:30.316 --> 0:03:32.716 and then I would sort of start improvising or other 0:03:32.756 --> 0:03:36.236 things would come out around my mouth. Where'd that come from? I? 0:03:38.476 --> 0:03:41.036 And so then it became like for him like sort 0:03:41.036 --> 0:03:44.516 of a shaping editing kind of process. And then you know, 0:03:44.556 --> 0:03:48.036 sometimes he would sample my guitars, put it back in, 0:03:48.236 --> 0:03:51.276 and and then I would go back and then usually 0:03:51.356 --> 0:03:54.076 add more guitar vocals. 0:03:54.476 --> 0:03:57.036 So the guitar is you playing. 0:03:57.116 --> 0:04:00.716 Yeah, although there might be some things he played guitar on, 0:04:00.876 --> 0:04:04.436 but mostly it's me. And then I had Sarah come 0:04:04.476 --> 0:04:08.196 in in the end and add more dense and noise stuff. 0:04:09.156 --> 0:04:11.876 What were the reference the hip hop reference tracks that 0:04:11.916 --> 0:04:13.476 you gave him. 0:04:13.196 --> 0:04:18.516 You know, like schooly D, how Gucci time, oh, old school? 0:04:18.796 --> 0:04:23.196 Yeah yeah, mostly like yeah, eighties or nineties. Okay, I 0:04:23.236 --> 0:04:26.276 didn't really give him that many references. But and then 0:04:26.516 --> 0:04:28.756 for the last record we talked about, you know, I'd 0:04:28.756 --> 0:04:32.516 played them different things, like even esg or there was 0:04:32.556 --> 0:04:36.796 this single I really liked by this banda Jellies, just 0:04:36.916 --> 0:04:40.796 like a super minimal kind of fun song. I'm like 0:04:40.836 --> 0:04:42.476 eighty two or eighty three. 0:04:42.596 --> 0:04:45.796 That's cool. I thought some of I mean, some of 0:04:45.836 --> 0:04:49.356 the music sounds like kind of like blown out dub 0:04:49.356 --> 0:04:52.476 and trap beats. So I thought maybe you were referencing 0:04:52.556 --> 0:04:54.716 more more recent stuff. 0:04:55.356 --> 0:04:58.916 Well, yeah, there is some yeah, reference to recent stuff, 0:04:59.356 --> 0:05:02.796 but it's kind of like, well, I liked the last record. 0:05:02.836 --> 0:05:05.436 I really liked that song Peprika Pony, which is a 0:05:05.596 --> 0:05:09.956 trap speed so like. But yeah, no, I know that 0:05:09.996 --> 0:05:14.716 he makes beats for other people, and so I knew that, yeah, 0:05:14.756 --> 0:05:17.596 that would involve other things, but it wasn't like I 0:05:17.636 --> 0:05:21.516 specifically pointed out some you know, contemporary person. 0:05:22.356 --> 0:05:24.196 Yeah, it's I've been reading some of the things that 0:05:24.236 --> 0:05:26.916 are being written about what's been released so far, and 0:05:27.036 --> 0:05:30.276 people are like, you know, like you're dropping bangers like 0:05:30.956 --> 0:05:34.156 trap bangers, and it's just it's so great. 0:05:34.756 --> 0:05:37.996 Yeah, I mean yeah, Justin gets a kick out of that, 0:05:38.156 --> 0:05:40.716 Like he couldn't wait for like his hip Hop World 0:05:40.796 --> 0:05:43.356 or whatever to hear a record or something. 0:05:44.196 --> 0:05:46.316 How did you two meet? How did you start working together? 0:05:48.076 --> 0:05:52.516 Super accidentally actually met him through his brother, uh Jeremiah, 0:05:53.076 --> 0:05:57.196 who uh I think curates beats for Drake or something. 0:05:57.316 --> 0:05:59.876 People send him beats. It was actually just in a 0:05:59.956 --> 0:06:03.196 restaurant and I was with a friend and he was 0:06:03.236 --> 0:06:05.836 with this girl, and our tables were so close together, 0:06:06.516 --> 0:06:08.796 and they had kind of a friend vibe. But then 0:06:08.836 --> 0:06:11.996 sudden they started talking about their sex life together, and 0:06:12.196 --> 0:06:15.036 our tables were so close that we just all turned 0:06:15.396 --> 0:06:18.116 to look at each other and started laughing. So we 0:06:18.236 --> 0:06:20.996 just started talking and and he was kind of like, yeah, 0:06:21.076 --> 0:06:23.996 my brother's a producer and he did the Discover Our 0:06:24.156 --> 0:06:27.036 record and that was kind of a cool record. But 0:06:27.076 --> 0:06:31.236 I when usually people say the word producer, my head 0:06:31.356 --> 0:06:34.796 kind of just turns off. I don't know, necessarily, It's 0:06:34.836 --> 0:06:37.636 not the way I've ever worked. So but then yeah, 0:06:37.996 --> 0:06:40.596 Justin started dming me and he was working on a 0:06:40.596 --> 0:06:43.396 project with Lawrence Rothman and they were having different people 0:06:43.436 --> 0:06:49.036 come in and do vocals along with Lawrence. And I 0:06:49.156 --> 0:06:51.876 wasn't actually living in La then, I was saying in 0:06:51.876 --> 0:06:54.156 an airbnb and yeah, I thought it was sort of 0:06:54.156 --> 0:06:56.796 a character, but I he kept sending me sup but 0:06:56.876 --> 0:06:59.716 eventually he sent me something that okay, I could do 0:06:59.796 --> 0:07:02.276 something on this, and so I went over and he 0:07:02.276 --> 0:07:05.476 has this home studio in his garage. It's a very 0:07:05.476 --> 0:07:11.876 big garage, LA style, and I did some vocals and 0:07:11.916 --> 0:07:15.356 he basically took what was left over and put a 0:07:15.476 --> 0:07:18.436 very trashy drum track to it and sent it to me, 0:07:18.516 --> 0:07:22.156 and I was really surprised. It was just like, oh, 0:07:22.156 --> 0:07:25.516 he really knows my sensibility. And so I went back 0:07:25.556 --> 0:07:29.076 and I did. He had Stella from Warpaint come in 0:07:29.116 --> 0:07:33.156 and put drums over it, and I put some guitar 0:07:33.236 --> 0:07:36.996 on it and vocals and that became murdered out. And 0:07:37.036 --> 0:07:39.316 then it wasn't until like six months later that I 0:07:39.316 --> 0:07:41.356 think we actually started working on a record. 0:07:41.876 --> 0:07:42.476 Sounds fun. 0:07:43.236 --> 0:07:46.516 Yeah, it was kind of I really didn't have any 0:07:46.916 --> 0:07:50.516 desire to do a solo record. You know. I played 0:07:50.596 --> 0:07:55.356 with the Bill Mace. We have a experimental guitar duo 0:07:55.796 --> 0:07:59.396 improv group and Body head and so and I have 0:07:59.716 --> 0:08:02.436 you know, I make visual arts. So I wasn't really 0:08:02.436 --> 0:08:07.036 thinking about launching a solo career in that sense. 0:08:07.836 --> 0:08:09.876 Does Bill like this solo stuff that you're doing. 0:08:10.556 --> 0:08:13.276 He's very supportive, you know, he says he does, but 0:08:13.276 --> 0:08:14.716 I don't know what he really thinks. 0:08:17.116 --> 0:08:19.196 The thing that struck me about it as a lot 0:08:19.236 --> 0:08:23.396 of the people that we talk to as people get older, 0:08:23.596 --> 0:08:28.636 things start to get quieter, their music starts to slow down, 0:08:29.356 --> 0:08:33.356 and this is the opposite of that. It's so noisy 0:08:34.076 --> 0:08:38.236 in the best way. Is that something that you were 0:08:38.276 --> 0:08:41.076 intending to do from the beginning. Was that part of 0:08:41.156 --> 0:08:42.836 the original concept? 0:08:43.636 --> 0:08:46.916 No, I didn't really think about it, actually, not at all. 0:08:47.076 --> 0:08:48.716 I don't know, Like, it wasn't really until it was 0:08:48.756 --> 0:08:51.636 done that I thought, oh god, it's really a loud record. 0:08:52.276 --> 0:08:58.876 I mean, I'm I'm kind of a slow developer. I'm 0:08:58.916 --> 0:09:02.436 just not making a really loud record. Yeah, I don't know. 0:09:02.556 --> 0:09:05.756 I guess I kind of see the record as an 0:09:05.796 --> 0:09:10.916 intervention into the culture or what does that mean? Like, 0:09:11.596 --> 0:09:16.676 because it's so different and so kind of abrasive in 0:09:16.756 --> 0:09:20.876 some way and not an easy listening kind of record. 0:09:21.156 --> 0:09:25.756 It has this other thing about it and I think 0:09:26.476 --> 0:09:28.636 people seem to be more and more ready for things 0:09:28.676 --> 0:09:33.556 that aren't conventional. And I don't know, so I think 0:09:33.636 --> 0:09:35.916 it's just meant to be a little bit of a 0:09:35.956 --> 0:09:38.996 disruption into what is business as usual. 0:09:39.396 --> 0:09:40.676 Yeah, that makes sense. 0:09:40.436 --> 0:09:42.396 But it didn't really like I didn't. You know, this 0:09:42.436 --> 0:09:44.716 is all like I'm saying this, but it's kind of 0:09:45.036 --> 0:09:47.196 unconsciously done. 0:09:47.556 --> 0:09:49.396 Do you listen to loud music normally? 0:09:50.036 --> 0:09:52.956 Uh? Not normally actually, you know, if I'm just around 0:09:52.956 --> 0:09:57.516 my house now, like I'll listen to like even John Fahi, 0:09:57.756 --> 0:10:01.836 you know, or like Brazilian music or Bardo Pond, you know, 0:10:01.996 --> 0:10:04.516 kind of Actually I love Barti Pond, Like I love 0:10:04.596 --> 0:10:08.636 that there's something really glorious and beautiful about their drone. 0:10:08.716 --> 0:10:11.636 It's very soothing to me, even though it's kind of loud. 0:10:12.596 --> 0:10:14.996 I don't know if this is a connection between earlier 0:10:15.316 --> 0:10:18.596 music you've made with Sonic Youth, but seems like you're 0:10:18.596 --> 0:10:20.156 sort of comfortable with the drone. 0:10:20.476 --> 0:10:21.076 Yeah. 0:10:21.116 --> 0:10:23.956 Do you see any sort of connective tissue between the 0:10:24.036 --> 0:10:26.556 music you were making with Sonic Youth and the new 0:10:26.636 --> 0:10:27.636 solo music. 0:10:28.436 --> 0:10:30.676 I mean, you know, in some ways, like if the 0:10:30.916 --> 0:10:34.756 songs that I sang on were the ones that were 0:10:34.836 --> 0:10:39.756 kind of more abstract slabs of music and you know, 0:10:39.876 --> 0:10:42.476 songs that we'd kind of make up all together sitting 0:10:42.516 --> 0:10:46.196 around as opposed to ones Often Thurston would come in 0:10:46.276 --> 0:10:48.596 with a melody and he would know what he wanted 0:10:48.636 --> 0:10:51.556 to sing, and then we'd find our parts to it 0:10:51.596 --> 0:10:55.236 and still arrange it all together. But other songs it 0:10:55.316 --> 0:10:58.156 was kind of a challenge like how am I gonna 0:10:58.156 --> 0:11:01.396 sing on this? And in a way like being presented 0:11:01.396 --> 0:11:05.316 with like beats and pieces of music would sound and beats, 0:11:05.636 --> 0:11:08.476 it wasn't dissimilar. You know, it's kind of okay, what 0:11:08.516 --> 0:11:11.196 can I do with this? And you know, if I 0:11:11.236 --> 0:11:13.596 didn't feel like I could do something, obviously it wouldn't 0:11:13.596 --> 0:11:16.836 do it. But you know, some things would immediately like 0:11:16.996 --> 0:11:18.876 move me. And that's also the way it was with 0:11:19.156 --> 0:11:22.236 in Sonic, you like, oh yeah, I could definitely do 0:11:22.356 --> 0:11:25.156 something you know, like massage history. I knew I could 0:11:25.196 --> 0:11:27.516 do something like that. It's funny. It just occurred to 0:11:27.516 --> 0:11:31.116 me the other day that it's kind of not dissimilar 0:11:31.556 --> 0:11:32.076 in that way. 0:11:32.516 --> 0:11:32.836 M hm. 0:11:33.356 --> 0:11:35.396 And then we did do some things that were like 0:11:35.836 --> 0:11:38.956 you know, cool thing or nature scene that were kind 0:11:38.996 --> 0:11:43.076 of had moments of what reference to hip hop. 0:11:42.796 --> 0:11:45.996 Or Yeah, I was surprised to see. I don't remember 0:11:45.996 --> 0:11:48.236 where it was from, but I read an interview with 0:11:48.276 --> 0:11:52.556 you where you were saying for cool Thing that llll 0:11:52.676 --> 0:11:54.996 cool Jay's going back to Cali was one of your 0:11:55.036 --> 0:11:57.636 favorite music videos of all time. I thought that was 0:11:57.636 --> 0:11:58.236 super cool. 0:11:58.356 --> 0:12:03.156 Yeah, yeah, it was definitely an inspiration, and the song 0:12:03.236 --> 0:12:06.196 kind of came about, you know. I was I was 0:12:06.196 --> 0:12:08.476 supposed to review l A Cool Day's new record, and 0:12:08.916 --> 0:12:12.636 I interviewed him and I asked, I was always curious 0:12:12.796 --> 0:12:16.796 how working with Rick Rubin was and what his knowledge 0:12:16.796 --> 0:12:19.716 of rock was or you know, or wasn't all Rick, 0:12:19.996 --> 0:12:23.756 you know, who brought what? And because I really liked Radio. 0:12:24.236 --> 0:12:28.116 I really liked that record a lot, and I was 0:12:28.156 --> 0:12:31.596 disappointed to learn that it was he was really into 0:12:31.596 --> 0:12:37.236 bon Jovi really and in a way it makes sense, 0:12:37.556 --> 0:12:41.196 like h but again, like I think it's because Rick 0:12:41.356 --> 0:12:46.196 probably you know, liked the big, chunky power chords of 0:12:46.396 --> 0:12:48.516 bon Jovi. That was kind of you know, like that 0:12:48.676 --> 0:12:51.596 went with the space and the beats he was doing, 0:12:51.596 --> 0:12:55.396 and yeah, in some of the music and anyway, so 0:12:56.436 --> 0:12:59.116 that's where it was part of the inspiration for the lyrics. 0:12:59.316 --> 0:13:03.476 You know, like being disappointed in some many Well, you're 0:13:03.516 --> 0:13:08.076 not into dissident guitars. And I always thought, actually hip 0:13:08.076 --> 0:13:10.756 hop would be so much it'd be cooler if they 0:13:11.356 --> 0:13:14.116 kind of were into more dissonet, kind of like their 0:13:14.156 --> 0:13:18.356 idea of rock. It's kind of corny in some respects. 0:13:18.396 --> 0:13:23.836 So anyway, So I think Justin someone who appreciates that. 0:13:24.076 --> 0:13:26.956 I never said that to him, but you know, he 0:13:27.436 --> 0:13:30.676 appreciates that this is going to make a trap speek 0:13:30.716 --> 0:13:32.516 cent different, you know, like it. 0:13:32.436 --> 0:13:36.356 Reminds me of have you heard Jesus Kanye's Jesus? I 0:13:36.356 --> 0:13:39.876 wonder if Justin's a fan of that album, but it's 0:13:39.996 --> 0:13:43.356 very like it feels like industrial music inspired. 0:13:43.756 --> 0:13:47.156 Yeah, I heard him do it live and a horrible 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:49.876 at the met at this the Met Ball, and it 0:13:49.916 --> 0:13:52.516 was the acoustics are terrible. I thought it was terrible, 0:13:54.716 --> 0:13:57.116 but I didn't honestly didn't sit down and listen to 0:13:57.156 --> 0:13:59.956 it the whole thing. But I I'm sure he was 0:13:59.996 --> 0:14:02.716 a fan of it. I'm sure he wasn't. Yeah, hell, 0:14:02.956 --> 0:14:08.436 he calls me Kanye sometimes so bad. 0:14:09.476 --> 0:14:12.996 And now that you're in the full interview cycle promoting 0:14:13.036 --> 0:14:15.956 the new album, how do you feel about doing interviews. 0:14:16.116 --> 0:14:17.636 I know, it's like a strange thing to ask you 0:14:17.676 --> 0:14:18.756 in an interview, but. 0:14:20.476 --> 0:14:21.356 That's a good question. 0:14:22.036 --> 0:14:26.236 You've been interviewed so many times for so many years, Like. 0:14:26.236 --> 0:14:28.676 Yeah, I mean, I think I've done over fifty interviews 0:14:28.676 --> 0:14:29.756 for this record so far. 0:14:30.276 --> 0:14:30.756 Wow. 0:14:31.316 --> 0:14:33.916 And then I did a couple of interviews yesterday and 0:14:34.596 --> 0:14:37.676 one was with someone an Think and Poland, and he's 0:14:37.916 --> 0:14:42.076 quoting my interviews I've already done for this record, really, 0:14:42.316 --> 0:14:45.956 And actually it was fine because I could clarify a 0:14:45.956 --> 0:14:49.236 couple of things that were, you know, taken out of 0:14:49.236 --> 0:14:51.996 context or whatever. But at the same time, I thought 0:14:52.036 --> 0:14:55.756 it was kind of strange because I've been I think 0:14:55.796 --> 0:14:58.636 I started doing interviews last fall when I was in Europe. 0:14:58.916 --> 0:15:03.116 But you know, it's a necessary evil. Sometimes I like it, 0:15:03.156 --> 0:15:06.796 you know, like it depends on the interviewer really, and 0:15:07.356 --> 0:15:10.036 it's made me think so much about the record, and 0:15:10.116 --> 0:15:14.116 I don't like that. Like I can give explanations for 0:15:14.876 --> 0:15:18.516 most of the songs, but I don't feel like it's 0:15:18.556 --> 0:15:21.876 always a good idea. I think it's nice when people 0:15:22.596 --> 0:15:25.956 come to their own conclusions sometimes or like project what 0:15:25.996 --> 0:15:30.196 they want or but for some things like the song 0:15:30.236 --> 0:15:33.596 I mean, man it's kind of useful to explain it. 0:15:33.636 --> 0:15:35.636 Does it seem like people are missing the mark with 0:15:35.676 --> 0:15:37.396 the questions they're asking you about the. 0:15:37.356 --> 0:15:41.956 Album sometimes, I mean, the worst question I've been asked 0:15:42.116 --> 0:15:45.196 is why did you make another record? And like I 0:15:45.236 --> 0:15:47.916 think they want me to say because of the pandemic 0:15:47.996 --> 0:15:49.556 or some Yeah, I don't know, Like I don't have 0:15:49.596 --> 0:15:52.556 a I don't have a good answer. I was just like, 0:15:52.636 --> 0:15:55.276 I don't know. I was bored. I don't know what 0:15:55.396 --> 0:15:58.196 else to do. Yeah, I don't know. I think it's 0:15:58.036 --> 0:15:59.716 it's a difficult question to answer. 0:16:00.196 --> 0:16:02.876 It seems miraculous, like for some I don't make music, 0:16:02.996 --> 0:16:06.676 and it seems like to create something out of nothing 0:16:06.836 --> 0:16:09.116 just seems yeah, incredible. 0:16:10.396 --> 0:16:12.476 Yeah, but it is like, uh, yeah, you make you know, 0:16:12.596 --> 0:16:15.876 you you make something in a space I wasn't there before, 0:16:15.956 --> 0:16:18.476 and that's it's like you made a roomers. 0:16:18.756 --> 0:16:21.796 You know, we're gonna take a quick break and then 0:16:21.836 --> 0:16:24.436 come back with more from Kim Gordon and Li Ros. 0:16:29.156 --> 0:16:30.996 Here's Kim Gordon with Lea Rose. 0:16:31.916 --> 0:16:35.356 So yeah, so back to the dissonance Somewhere. I heard 0:16:35.396 --> 0:16:38.956 you say that you felt like extreme noise and dissonance 0:16:39.036 --> 0:16:43.556 can be really cleansing. Yeah, do you remember when that 0:16:43.636 --> 0:16:44.556 first struck you. 0:16:45.916 --> 0:16:49.956 Probably driving around uh in Western mass in this you know, 0:16:49.996 --> 0:16:52.436 in my car and this everything covered in snow and 0:16:52.596 --> 0:16:55.996 just kind of yeah, it's not sentimental, it's not emotional, 0:16:56.076 --> 0:16:58.836 it's not I don't know, and it's just like looking 0:16:58.876 --> 0:17:02.316 at suburbia, you know, it's just kind of like, I 0:17:02.436 --> 0:17:05.156 just want something to cut through this. This is kind 0:17:05.156 --> 0:17:08.396 of depressing. I was just like that idea. I could 0:17:08.396 --> 0:17:11.236 be driving around this super bin l like, I mean, 0:17:11.276 --> 0:17:14.236 some of a beautiful landscape, but then some of the 0:17:14.236 --> 0:17:18.436 suburban parts, you know, depressing. And how kind of funny 0:17:18.676 --> 0:17:21.036 you know about music that you can just have it 0:17:21.076 --> 0:17:24.756 in your head and be it can contrast so much 0:17:24.796 --> 0:17:27.396 with what's going on around you, and it creates its 0:17:27.436 --> 0:17:33.396 own Yeah it's sounds stupid, but it creates its own architecture, environment, 0:17:33.636 --> 0:17:35.396 space and transports you. 0:17:35.556 --> 0:17:38.276 So you said that before you started making the album, 0:17:38.316 --> 0:17:40.316 you want to do something that was more beat driven. 0:17:41.076 --> 0:17:43.556 Do you remember why you wanted to do that. 0:17:44.236 --> 0:17:46.956 Because I feel like, yeah, I'm inspired by rhythm I 0:17:47.036 --> 0:17:51.476 really like And when I first started playing with these 0:17:51.516 --> 0:17:55.276 two girls, when I first started playing guitar back in 0:17:55.596 --> 0:18:00.196 nineteen eighty or something. It was for this artist, Dan 0:18:00.316 --> 0:18:04.836 Graham's art performance. It's called mirror performance audience, where he'd 0:18:04.876 --> 0:18:08.196 have a mirror standing behind a huge mirror, like a 0:18:08.236 --> 0:18:12.396 giant wall mirror, and he would just stand there and 0:18:12.476 --> 0:18:18.316 describe the audience their gestures, they're shifting in their seats, 0:18:18.636 --> 0:18:21.836 and then he would turn around and describe himself in 0:18:21.876 --> 0:18:24.836 the mirror, harving the audience. It was all very self conscious, 0:18:24.836 --> 0:18:26.876 and he wanted to do the piece with an all 0:18:26.876 --> 0:18:30.956 girl band because he was writing articles about the slits 0:18:30.996 --> 0:18:35.596 and feminism and rock and all this stuff. So he 0:18:35.636 --> 0:18:38.996 introduced me to this school Miranda sat and Miranda and 0:18:39.596 --> 0:18:43.796 we started playing, and then this other musician, Christine Han, 0:18:43.956 --> 0:18:47.876 joined us. But it was my idea was like a 0:18:47.956 --> 0:18:50.836 drum machine with someone taught me how to play like 0:18:51.396 --> 0:18:55.916 half jazz chorts, just like pretting the bottom three strings, 0:18:56.116 --> 0:19:00.636 so kind of doing that and then getting lyrics from 0:19:00.676 --> 0:19:06.636 like women's magazines ads for different colored lipstick. And there 0:19:06.676 --> 0:19:09.396 was like a talking song that we did that is 0:19:09.836 --> 0:19:13.276 taken from kind of this first person text on the 0:19:13.396 --> 0:19:18.556 back of Cosmopolitan's, like I'm a Cosmopolitan girl and I 0:19:18.796 --> 0:19:21.956 describing the whole thing anyway, So that was a song. 0:19:22.196 --> 0:19:24.236 So I kind of like from the very beginning I 0:19:24.316 --> 0:19:25.516 sort of did that. 0:19:25.916 --> 0:19:28.676 Anyway, Was that around the same time you were writing 0:19:29.036 --> 0:19:32.076 for you started writing for magazines in New York. Yeah, 0:19:32.556 --> 0:19:35.996 so you were writing about male bonding and what happens 0:19:36.076 --> 0:19:40.396 between men on stage in bands. Was that the actual 0:19:40.436 --> 0:19:43.236 impetus of you joining what became Sonic Youth. 0:19:44.236 --> 0:19:47.876 Well, yeah, Dan was writing these are articles about women 0:19:47.876 --> 0:19:52.036 in rock, and so to be sort of rebellious, I thought, 0:19:52.076 --> 0:19:54.796 I'm going to write about men in rock. But there 0:19:54.876 --> 0:20:01.036 was this composer Rhese Chatham who was influenced by but Lama. Yeah, 0:20:01.036 --> 0:20:04.596 he started with leam, but he applied it to electric guitar. 0:20:04.796 --> 0:20:07.876 So he and he told Glen Bronca. So they were 0:20:07.916 --> 0:20:12.876 both doing kind of writing pieces of music with open etuning. 0:20:13.436 --> 0:20:17.996 So Reese had this piece called Guitar Trio. It was 0:20:18.196 --> 0:20:19.996 so what they would do is they would take a 0:20:20.076 --> 0:20:23.916 hit of anal nitrate, this stuff called locker room. It 0:20:24.036 --> 0:20:27.516 was a popular drug in the West Village among sort 0:20:27.516 --> 0:20:30.196 of a gay community. They would take a hit of 0:20:30.196 --> 0:20:36.396 that and then downstroke on the guitar wars and in 0:20:36.476 --> 0:20:39.956 this rhythm. Anyway, So the first thing I wrote was 0:20:40.236 --> 0:20:42.956 just a description of that performance. It was very short. 0:20:43.116 --> 0:20:46.956 It is called Trash, Drugs and Male Bonding. It was 0:20:46.956 --> 0:20:49.956 for this art magazine called Real Life. Yeah, and then 0:20:49.996 --> 0:20:54.156 I wrote longer pieces have been involved a group of 0:20:54.276 --> 0:20:57.636 male artists. Whatever. But in order to do my research, 0:20:57.756 --> 0:21:01.716 I read books by John Retchie because I couldn't really 0:21:01.796 --> 0:21:07.076 find any material that described that talked about male sexuality 0:21:07.076 --> 0:21:11.036 in a certain way. John Retchie books were kind of 0:21:11.036 --> 0:21:14.516 about the gay bar scene in the West Village and 0:21:15.636 --> 0:21:18.636 kind of this idea of needing distance for desire. And 0:21:20.116 --> 0:21:23.036 then yeah, but I did feel like, well, maybe I'll 0:21:23.116 --> 0:21:25.836 learn more about male bonding if I'm in the band 0:21:25.996 --> 0:21:29.756 or something. But I met Thurston through Miranda and we 0:21:29.796 --> 0:21:30.996 started playing music together. 0:21:31.916 --> 0:21:34.716 Do you think the desire to go that far was 0:21:35.116 --> 0:21:39.276 learning what it would actually be like by embedding yourself 0:21:39.316 --> 0:21:42.756 in a real band of boys. Do you think that 0:21:42.956 --> 0:21:45.636 has anything to do with your dad being a sociologist? 0:21:46.596 --> 0:21:49.596 Well? I thought maybe so in retrospect, because he did 0:21:49.796 --> 0:21:52.676 have this book on his bookshelf called Men at Work, 0:21:52.716 --> 0:21:55.116 and I used to look at it and wonder, what's 0:21:55.156 --> 0:21:57.396 that about it? And why isn't there a one that's 0:21:57.436 --> 0:22:01.276 as women in Work or something? But yeah, I don't know. 0:22:01.316 --> 0:22:03.476 I guess you know in a way that a lot 0:22:03.516 --> 0:22:06.356 of lyrics on the record are kind of stemmed from 0:22:06.796 --> 0:22:11.996 a sort of sociological kind of observe interest, and some 0:22:12.076 --> 0:22:14.316 of it is emotionally reactive. 0:22:14.916 --> 0:22:18.796 Did you actually ever learn, like, did you ever get 0:22:18.796 --> 0:22:20.876 the knowledge that you were seeking in the beginning, like 0:22:21.036 --> 0:22:25.236 what happens between men on stage in bands? Did you 0:22:25.316 --> 0:22:27.796 have any big takeaways from being in the band for 0:22:27.836 --> 0:22:28.316 so long? 0:22:29.916 --> 0:22:33.916 Not really actually, I mean no, nothing that surprised me. 0:22:34.556 --> 0:22:38.956 But there's a difference between playing bass and electric guitar, 0:22:39.796 --> 0:22:43.596 I think, and maybe it has to do with this 0:22:43.756 --> 0:22:47.276 sound you get from electric guitar, but it definitely feels 0:22:47.316 --> 0:22:51.276 like this more of a sense of power, and you know, 0:22:51.476 --> 0:22:56.396 just electricity is kind of an interesting thing to use 0:22:56.436 --> 0:22:59.556 that way, and you can subvert it with your body 0:22:59.636 --> 0:23:02.516 and move with your body and some of those heroic 0:23:02.636 --> 0:23:07.196 gestures windmills and things like that. It become staples of 0:23:07.836 --> 0:23:09.916 you know, arena rock or just like a kind of 0:23:09.996 --> 0:23:13.196 rock or like they do something to the sound in 0:23:13.236 --> 0:23:16.476 a way, you know. Yeah, But I think it also 0:23:16.596 --> 0:23:19.716 is kind of has to do with people playing in 0:23:19.756 --> 0:23:23.516 bigger and bigger places and then make so the gestures 0:23:23.556 --> 0:23:27.556 become bigger, more perform more performative or something. 0:23:27.796 --> 0:23:29.716 But now it sounds like you play with mostly women. 0:23:30.556 --> 0:23:33.756 Yeah, just kind of happened that way. The first incarnation 0:23:34.356 --> 0:23:37.876 of the band was there was a male drummer. This 0:23:37.916 --> 0:23:41.516