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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, bone chilling Brian Coburger details emerge.

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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 2: Bombshell, a new tell old book reveals a bone chilling

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Speaker 2: theory on Idaho murder suspect Brian Coburger. Author Howard Bloom

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Speaker 2: joins Crime Stories for an exclusive interview.

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Speaker 1: Howard Bloom is joining us right now from Manhattan along

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Speaker 1: with an all star panel to dissect what we know

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Speaker 1: and what we are learning from Howard Bloom, you know,

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Speaker 1: I have poured over every document, every search warrant, every return,

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Speaker 1: every witness statement that I could get my mints on.

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Speaker 1: I have flown to Idaho, to Moscow, Idaho in the

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Speaker 1: midst of winter and trows through the snow to look

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Speaker 1: at the scene as best as I could to drive

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Speaker 1: the route I believe, yeah, good times freezing, then got

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Speaker 1: in an suv at night in the pitch dark at

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Speaker 1: the time I believe Brian Coberger left that crime scene

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Speaker 1: and started his securitiest route ah the word hours drive

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Speaker 1: to his apartment at nearby Washington State University of Pullman,

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Speaker 1: which should have been about an eight minute drive, and

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Speaker 1: somewhere along the way, he turns a cell phone by

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Speaker 1: con that said, after all that, I still learned so

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Speaker 1: much from reading Howard Bloom's book The Name when the

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Speaker 1: Night Comes Falling a Requiem for the Idaho student murders. Wow,

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Speaker 1: even the title made me stop and in the midst

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Speaker 1: of everything we all do in regular life, you know, working,

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Speaker 1: your children, your cat, dog.

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Speaker 3: Your mom.

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Speaker 1: I managed to finish this book in one day. I

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Speaker 1: practically could not put it down. I had it in

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Speaker 1: two forms. I printed out what I had and had

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Speaker 1: it on my iPad so I could look at it

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Speaker 1: no matter where I was. Howard Bloom, It's amazing you

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Speaker 1: had me sitting in the Costco parking lot in the

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Speaker 1: heat reading your book, trying to get to the next

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Speaker 1: chapter before I came back home.

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Speaker 4: Well, I appreciate that. I'm very kind.

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Speaker 5: You're sitting in a room as an author, and you

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Speaker 5: wonder if anyone will read what you write, meant to

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Speaker 5: hear someone talk about it so graciously. I'm very plattered,

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Speaker 5: So thank you.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've never been accused of being kind before, so

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Speaker 1: I will take that with a box of salt. I

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Speaker 1: want to get right to it. There's so much in

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Speaker 1: your book. I had to take copious notes, so I'll.

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Speaker 3: Just start at the beginning.

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Speaker 1: It was an amazing intro, and I was struck by

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Speaker 1: the fact that you start your book from Coburger's father's.

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Speaker 3: Point of view.

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Speaker 1: And what I learned about his father really touched my heart.

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Speaker 3: How he never got to go to college.

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Speaker 1: And he was so proud of Brian Coburger and was

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Speaker 1: already referring to him as doctor Coburger amongst his coworkers.

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Speaker 1: And it reminded me so much, howard of my father,

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Speaker 1: how he didn't get we're first generation college and when

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Speaker 1: I got through law school, in his mind, it was

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Speaker 1: the most amazing thing ever, so proud. Right now, here's

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Speaker 1: my question with that lead up. Almost at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: his father and his family, Coburger's family suspected him of

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Speaker 1: being the killer.

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Speaker 3: I found that just.

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Speaker 1: I was dubstruck because you know, when I read about

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Speaker 1: a crime, I don't immediately think, oh, my son did that.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I've never thought that. Tell me you're thinking,

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Speaker 1: and why you say that.

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Speaker 4: Michael Koberger makes this trip out to see his son,

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Speaker 4: to make the ride back with him. You know, this

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Speaker 4: is a twenty eight year old man, and his father

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Speaker 4: is worried about him. He's making this trip, it's fatiguing,

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Speaker 4: it's expensive, but he's worried about his son. He's sitting

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Speaker 4: next to him in this car, shoulder to shoulder. He

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Speaker 4: knows the police are looking for a wife handed. And

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Speaker 4: one of the first things he realizes when he meets

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Speaker 4: his son is that his son's mood is volatile. That's

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Speaker 4: his first sign that Brian is in a state. He

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Speaker 4: goes out to meet his son in Washington State, and

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Speaker 4: he doesn't know which Brian he's goying to encounter, but

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Speaker 4: that's his first sign. And he begins to see has

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Speaker 4: the mood change and become deeper and more acerbic. He

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Speaker 4: begins to wonder, Oh, my gosh, he begins to think

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Speaker 4: the unthinkable. He begins to consider that his son could

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Speaker 4: in fact be a murderer. And all this is building

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Speaker 4: building in his mind, and he's afraid to go there,

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Speaker 4: as any father would, but he's getting these clueses if

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Speaker 4: you were following footsteps in the snow, and the footsteps

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Speaker 4: are becoming bloodier and bloodier, and he now realizes could

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Speaker 4: this really be true? And then all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: they're driving along in Indiana and they see police sirens

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Speaker 4: in the back of the car, has to pull over,

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Speaker 4: and he begins to feel what is going to happen next?

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Speaker 1: Well, guys with me, Howard Bloom, who has literally written

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Speaker 1: the book the name of the book, when the Night

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Speaker 1: Comes Falling a Requiem for the Idaho student murders, And

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Speaker 1: I have learned so much more than way the public,

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Speaker 1: have learned more than my sources have told me, by

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Speaker 1: exhaustive research by Howard Bloom.

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Speaker 3: You're looking right at him, Howard.

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Speaker 1: You stated that these aren't your words, that you just

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Speaker 1: covered this from what Coiberger's father stated to other people.

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Speaker 1: What did he state about immediately suspecting here's his son

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Speaker 1: was the killer.

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Speaker 4: He went out to Idaho Washington State at the beginning

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Speaker 4: with suspicions. You have to remember that, Michael, this is

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Speaker 4: not his first trip out there. He even took his

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Speaker 4: son out on the first trip in August when his

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Speaker 4: from was just registering for school. He had real concerns

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Speaker 4: about his son. Some was a former heroin attic, his

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Speaker 4: son had psychological problems. At the same time, he wanted

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Speaker 4: to believe, against gold hope that his son was changing,

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Speaker 4: that his son had reinvented himself. He had come been

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Speaker 4: a mediocre student and now he was in an excellent

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Speaker 4: graduate program for criminology. And Michael wanted to believe that

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Speaker 4: his son was going to get a PhD. He was

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Speaker 4: going to be my doctor, Brian Coberger, and yet at

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Speaker 4: the same time, in the back of his mind he

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Speaker 4: was thinking the unthinkable. And then things just fall into place.

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Speaker 4: There was a shooting at just blocks from where Brian

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Speaker 4: lived as they were making this trip across country. A man,

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Speaker 4: a former veteran, when berserk and took hostages in a

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Speaker 4: student housing and a slat team had to come in

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Speaker 4: and they killed him. And Michael Colberger, as he told

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Speaker 4: people who spoke with me, began to feel that there

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Speaker 4: was something just wrong in this part of the world.

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Speaker 4: There were evil forces. That's how he put it at work.

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Speaker 4: And his son was you know what.

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Speaker 1: I've read a lot and investigated a lot about the

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Speaker 1: family dynamics of Brian Coburger.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 6: Brian Coberger's family members are concerned about Brian's behavior prior

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Speaker 6: to his arrest. Author Howard Bloom says one of Coberger's

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Speaker 6: sisters confronts their father about the possibility that Brian Coberger

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Speaker 6: is involved in the Moscow murders, but Michael Coberger apparently

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Speaker 6: brushes off their concerns. Bloom says Michael Coberger is on

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Speaker 6: edge when he picks up his son to drive back

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Speaker 6: from Washington to Pennsylvania, claiming the senior Coburger has seen

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Speaker 6: the headlines. He knows four students are killed twelve miles

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Speaker 6: from his son's house, and according to Bloom, Michael Coberger

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Speaker 6: knows what a troubled son he has.

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Speaker 3: Well, you know, joining me an all star panel.

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Speaker 1: In addition to this incredible author Howard Bloom Howard, I

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Speaker 1: noticed that one of the points of contention was about

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Speaker 1: the route. And when I was driving that route from

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Speaker 1: the King Road murder scene back to his apartment in Pullman.

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Speaker 1: At Pullman, I was wondering why he did that, Why

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Speaker 1: he drove an hour in the middle of the night.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure you know there's no street lights, it's

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Speaker 1: incres pitched black, and you only ran off the road

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Speaker 1: a couple of times when a semi would come by.

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Speaker 3: But he basically did the same thing with his dad.

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Speaker 1: The dad flies out, does a quick turnaround, he's exhausted,

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Speaker 1: he gets in the launcher with his son and the

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Speaker 1: Sun refuses to go the direct and much shorter route.

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Speaker 1: Do you think that had anything to do with Coburger

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Speaker 1: believing he was being followed or monitored.

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Speaker 4: I think Coburger, being a criminology student, was trying to

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Speaker 4: take precautions at this point. I don't think he had

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Speaker 4: any belief or any knowledge that he was being followed. However,

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Speaker 4: he was trying to be circumspecced. He was trying to

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Speaker 4: be one step smarter than the authorities.

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Speaker 1: Again, in addition to Howard Bloom now preeminent author, an

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Speaker 1: All Star panel and I want to go out to

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Speaker 1: Chris McDonough joining us, the director of the Cold Case Foundation,

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Speaker 1: former homicide detective, host on the Interview Room on YouTube, who,

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Speaker 1: like me, like Howard, has seen the evidence, has walked the.

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Speaker 3: Scene, very familiar with the air.

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Speaker 1: Yet, Chris mcdona, You've had a lot of homicide cases

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Speaker 1: and very often family members know their son is a killer, but.

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Speaker 3: They will never admit it.

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Speaker 1: And I'm thinking about Coburger's dad, who knew he had

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Speaker 1: suspicious at the beginning, his son was a quadruple killer.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, and Nancy, I think what happens is write that

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Speaker 7: parental you know, tendency kicks in a relationship to they

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Speaker 7: want to believe it, but they don't necessarily want.

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Speaker 4: To believe it.

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Speaker 7: And so it's kind of a you know, a tug

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Speaker 7: and pull from a parental physician.

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Speaker 4: However, in this particular case, it's obvious.

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Speaker 7: Dad had his radar was way up and had taken

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Speaker 7: that trip to go out and pick up his son.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, think about it, Chris, and let me

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Speaker 1: throw this to doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrists joining us

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Speaker 1: Angela Arnold MD dot com.

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Speaker 3: Have you ever seen parents at.

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Speaker 1: Tiptoe around their child all the time that they're just

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Speaker 1: waiting for an exploit? And when I was reading the

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Speaker 1: first chapter in Howard's book, When the Night Comes.

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Speaker 3: Falling, you could feel the tension of the.

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Speaker 1: Father in the car with Coburger on this long drive,

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Speaker 1: just waiting for an explosion. But we got to keep

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Speaker 1: in mind the dad, Michael Coburger, has spent his whole

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Speaker 1: life trying to prop up support help Brian Coburger, so

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Speaker 1: he knew it was like walking through a minefield. Anything

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Speaker 1: could make him explode. And when Coburger insisted on this

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Speaker 1: secuitous route, which took hours and hours longer than I

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Speaker 1: direct route. He went, okay, fine, you're the boss. Those

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Speaker 1: are the words the father used to Coburger.

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Speaker 8: Well, sure, because Nancy, the last thing he was going

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Speaker 8: to do was confront this guy. Because I have to

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Speaker 8: wonder if the father, if the father knew all of this.

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Speaker 8: Was the father a little bit terrified of what could

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Speaker 8: set Brian off, and possibly was the father's life in

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Speaker 8: danger at the point, because apparently Brian was agitated at

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Speaker 8: this time. I wonder if the circuitous route had anything

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Speaker 8: to do with some sort of OCD kind of disorder

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Speaker 8: that this guy has.

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Speaker 1: Howard bloom You also described Brian Koberger his Heroin habit,

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Speaker 1: how he got into Heroin and when he managed to

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Speaker 1: kick Heroin after his father turned him in for stealing

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Speaker 1: the sister's phone and he had to go into some

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Speaker 1: sort of a rehabit treatment to get his life straight.

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Speaker 1: He kicked Heroin and decided his body was a temple,

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Speaker 1: and that is when he became a vegetarian. And I

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Speaker 1: had wondered where that started, because now he's demanding certain

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Speaker 1: types of meals behind bars and he's getting them. And

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Speaker 1: I remember an anecdote where the family couldn't cook with

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Speaker 1: certain pots and pants because they had once cooked meat.

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Speaker 3: I'm working up to it.

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Speaker 1: You revealed that Coburger had two types of plasticery after

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Speaker 1: he loses one hundred pounds.

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Speaker 3: What were they?

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Speaker 4: Brian Coberg is intent and this is the admirable part

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Speaker 4: of him. He's trying to reinvent himself. He comes out

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Speaker 4: of this depressing, hard scrabble existence, a family with two bankruptcies.

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Speaker 4: He's going to hard scrabble high school. His father is

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Speaker 4: a janitor at the high school. He's sort of embarrassed

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Speaker 4: by that. He becomes a heroin addict and yet, to

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Speaker 4: his credit, he works himself out of this. He then

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Speaker 4: wants to he's trying to approach girls at high school.

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Speaker 4: They're ignoring him. He loses the weight and he still

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Speaker 4: has this sort of flesh that's going over his midsection,

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Speaker 4: and it's just not the sort of guy he wants

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Speaker 4: to be. He wants to be a player, he wants

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Speaker 4: to be one of the cool guys, and he thinks,

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Speaker 4: so he has this surgery. These two surgeries are covered

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Speaker 4: by insurance, and he reinvents himself. He's in good shape,

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Speaker 4: as you can see him in the photographs. He works out,

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Speaker 4: he does martial arts, and he still tries to become

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Speaker 4: the man he wants to be.

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Speaker 3: The plastic surgeries.

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Speaker 4: He has these two plastic surgeries to get over his midsection.

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Speaker 4: So there's not this sort of envelope.

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Speaker 1: Powered you're so polite, Okay, you outline it in your book.

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Speaker 1: He had two surgeries, one of them being an abdominoplasty

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Speaker 1: and the other you know what they're long. Let me

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Speaker 1: rephrase list. You described two plastic surgeries that Brian Koberger has.

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Speaker 1: Both of them, I believe were a were related to

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Speaker 1: removing flaps of skin left over from the one hundred

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Speaker 1: plus pound weight loss, a flap of skin and tissue

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Speaker 1: that went down over his private parts and his lower stomach.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to get rid of that, and when he

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Speaker 1: did get rid of that through plastic surgery, he had

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Speaker 1: a serious body is the.

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Speaker 3: Way I take it from your book is that what happened.

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Speaker 4: That's exactly what happened. He had this vision that he

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Speaker 4: would become a new Brian Coburger, and the tragedy is

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Speaker 4: he almost succeeded. He gets out to Washington State a

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Speaker 4: new man and he's trying to live a new life,

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Speaker 4: and yet he's pulled back in to what he always is.

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Speaker 4: To his ass and side believe.

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Speaker 6: Brian Coberger allegedly enters the home and walks past the

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Speaker 6: first rooms he sees coming into the Moscow, Idaho house,

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Speaker 6: and goes straight up a narrow staircase and turns directly

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Speaker 6: into the room of his target, Madison Mogan. Author Howard

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Speaker 6: Bloom says investigators believe Matti Mogan is the target and

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Speaker 6: her best friend Kaylegan's office is killed because she's in

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Speaker 6: the room with Mogan.

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Speaker 2: Did Brian Cooberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new

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Speaker 2: book suggests family knew more than they ever let on

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Speaker 2: about their troubled son. Author Howard Bloom tells us more.

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Speaker 1: Guys joining me is the author Howard Bloom, author of

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Speaker 1: When the Night Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho

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Speaker 1: student murders.

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Speaker 3: Howard Bloom has gone where many have.

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Speaker 1: Not tediously investigating everything about this case, and the book

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Speaker 1: is full of revelations. We were just describing how Coberger's

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Speaker 1: own family thought at the get go, before he was

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Speaker 1: ever named a suspect or even a pay person. Of

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Speaker 1: interest that he committed the quadruple murders. And in this vein,

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Speaker 1: can you imagine Coburger's father, so proud of his son

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Speaker 1: getting his PhD, flies out to Washington to drive Coburger

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Speaker 1: back home to the Poconos area for Thanksgiving. And he's

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Speaker 1: sitting there for all these hours in this white Elantra,

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Speaker 1: which of course he knows has been named in the case,

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Speaker 1: and looking over at his son who was acting more

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Speaker 1: and more. Alla tile, But I want to move on

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Speaker 1: to the next point.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 6: In a shocking revelation, author Howard Bloom claims Brian Coberger

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Speaker 6: is not a random spree killer. He had one target

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Speaker 6: in mind the night he allegedly killed four college students

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Speaker 6: in their home off campus in Moscow, Idaho. Bloom says

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Speaker 6: investigators believe in a non targeted attack, the killer would

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Speaker 6: have stopped at the first door inside the house. It

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Speaker 6: would have been instinctive to go into the first rooms

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Speaker 6: after gaining entry, But that isn't what happened. Investigators point

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Speaker 6: to the two surviving roommates, Dylan Mortensen and Bethany Funk,

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Speaker 6: as proof Coburger is after a specific target.

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Speaker 1: You know, you really back your theory up with a

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Speaker 1: lot of facts and the way they're laid out it

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Speaker 1: makes perfect sense.

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Speaker 3: But all along it has been believed, it has been.

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Speaker 1: Accepted that Killy Goldsolves was the target, the original target,

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Speaker 1: and the others were just collateral damage.

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Speaker 4: But you say no, why, Well, at this point, Haley

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Speaker 4: is not even living in the house, She's living up

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Speaker 4: north with her family. She's going to graduate at the

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Speaker 4: end of the termined in December, and Brian really wouldn't

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Speaker 4: have come in contact with her necessarily. But he did

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Speaker 4: go to the Mad Greek restaurant in downtown Moscow. It

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Speaker 4: sort of vegan food which he liked, which he would

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Speaker 4: adhere to strictly, and Maddie was a waitress there. And

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Speaker 4: my belief is that they encountered one another in the

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Speaker 4: restaurant or any words said, did they have a conversation.

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Speaker 4: I don't think that was necessary. You know, both the

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Speaker 4: prosecution and the defense have said for the record that

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Speaker 4: there was no interaction between Brian Coburger and any of

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Speaker 4: the victims. They did not follow any of them on

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Speaker 4: social media to their knowledge, never had any real conversations

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Speaker 4: with them. But Brian was a man whose life was

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Speaker 4: sort of determined by obsessions determined such as being a

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Speaker 4: dick it to heroin such as losing one hundred pounds,

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Speaker 4: which as deciding to become the best student after being

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Speaker 4: a mediocre student. And I think once he saw Maddie

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Speaker 4: for whatever reasons, I mean, she's an attractive, blonde woman, charming, bibacious,

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Speaker 4: at juliant, he becomes interested in her, and I think

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Speaker 4: his fixation he would see the parties he would be

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Speaker 4: I believe, on the periphery of events, as parties were

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Speaker 4: hosted at this house on King Road, a party house,

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Speaker 4: and he would look at that and he felt it

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Speaker 4: was in some ways a constant rebuke to the life

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Speaker 4: that he was leading and the life he wanted to live.

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Speaker 4: He could never be a part of that, and he decided,

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Speaker 4: in his rage, in his mania, I believe, to do

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Speaker 4: something about it. And when he entered the house that night,

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Speaker 4: and he goes in through the kitchen, he passes two bedrooms,

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Speaker 4: the bedroom where Xana is with Ethan and also the

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Speaker 4: bedroom where Dylaan is. He doesn't stop. He goes up

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Speaker 4: up a flight, which isn't your natural inclination, into Maddie's

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Speaker 4: room and he finds her, but he's surprised to see

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Speaker 4: that Kaylee is there. He had no idea that as

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Speaker 4: she's sleeping over that she's staying for the weekend, she'd

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Speaker 4: come to town to show up at her new car.

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Speaker 4: She's just gotten a used range Rover, and she was

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Speaker 4: very proud of it and excited by it, and she

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Speaker 4: wanted to share that with her friends. And he discovers

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Speaker 4: Maddie and then kills her. Caylee fights back, climbs out

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Speaker 4: of the bed, just pressed against the wall, and he

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Speaker 4: kills her, and Hayley is collateral damage when he goes downstairs.

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Speaker 4: The two other victims are collateral damage too.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace joining me is a now

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Speaker 1: same professor of forensics Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville

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Speaker 1: State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon,

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Speaker 1: a star of a hit series Body Bags with Joe

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Speaker 1: Scott Morgan. But for my purposes, and most importantly, he

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Speaker 1: is a quote death investigator who has investigated.

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Speaker 3: Over one thousand deaths. Joe Scott Morgan, you and I.

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Speaker 1: Have gone over the evidence, both on air and off,

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Speaker 1: trying to determine who was the target. First of all,

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter who was the target, because they were.

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Speaker 3: All for murdered.

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Speaker 1: But the reason we were looking for this needle in

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Speaker 1: a haystack is to determine if we knew the target,

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Speaker 1: we could better figure out who was the perpetrator.

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Speaker 8: Right.

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Speaker 1: So you're hearing what Howard Bloom outlines in his chapter fifteen,

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Speaker 1: and I think this may be dispositive from your point

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Speaker 1: of view. The attacks on ghost solves versus Maddy Mogan.

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Speaker 1: They are very revealing.

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Speaker 9: Explain the very revealing because of the level of violence

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Speaker 9: I think that's involved here. You've got these two victims

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Speaker 9: that are contained in that bedroom up there. And I

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Speaker 9: got to tell you, based upon what Howard is saying,

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Speaker 9: the idea that this individual Coburger allegedly knew where to

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Speaker 9: go in this house, because as you well know, you

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Speaker 9: stood outside that house, Nancy, it's a very confusing layout.

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Speaker 9: You would have to have specific knowledge of where her

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Speaker 9: room would be at that particular time. Now, the fact

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Speaker 9: that there was another occupant in there, maybe that's the

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Speaker 9: case and he was surprised by that, But it goes

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Speaker 9: to this idea of I would like to try to

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Speaker 9: understand if he had scoped this place out for a

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Speaker 9: particular period of time. Also, this kind of dovetails with

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Speaker 9: what Howard had said as well, that he saw parties

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Speaker 9: going on and that this is kind of a projection

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Speaker 9: he understands the life in there. There was a real

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Speaker 9: chilling video that came up, I don't know about a

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Speaker 9: year ago. I don't know if you guys recall this,

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Speaker 9: of them the occupants of that house, actually giving internal

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Speaker 9: views of that in a TikTok video. It made my

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Speaker 9: skin crawl as a dad and as a college professor,

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Speaker 9: because the individual that's seeing this can see the layout

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Speaker 9: inside of that, inside of that structure, which I think

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Speaker 9: that we can all agree is kind of peculiar, to

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Speaker 9: say the very least.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you can't have it both ways, Joe Scott Morgan

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Speaker 1: or you Howard Bloom, do I dare to call you

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Speaker 1: on the carpet after you've.

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Speaker 3: Literally written the book we can't have.

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Speaker 1: He's full of rage and goes after these girls because

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Speaker 1: he can't have them. He can't have the party life,

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Speaker 1: the popularity, the thing he's been seeking since he lost

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Speaker 1: that one hundred pounds and had those two plastic surgeries.

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Speaker 1: It's not happening for him. You can't have the rage.

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Speaker 1: Plus and I really like the way you laid this

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Speaker 1: out and trying to Ah, here we go. Near the

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Speaker 1: beginning of your book, you talk about Brian Coburger delving

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Speaker 1: into quote the criminal mind and will be a quote scientist.

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Speaker 3: Exploring why criminals do what they do.

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Speaker 1: It's been kicked around that his motive, not that the

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Speaker 1: state needs to prove a motive.

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Speaker 3: They don't, but jury's like to hear it.

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Speaker 1: So practically speaking, you better hand one over on a

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Speaker 1: silver platter on top of the Christmas tree.

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Speaker 3: You can't have him full of rage and.

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Speaker 1: Methodically trying to carry out the perfect murder and get

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Speaker 1: away with it very calmly and methodically.

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Speaker 3: So which one is it? What about it? Bloom?

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Speaker 4: He was filled with mania, which is not the same

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Speaker 4: thing as rage, And you're trying to understand make a

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Speaker 4: rational explanation for completely irrational acts. What Brian Coberger tried

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Speaker 4: to do that night is to commit I believe the

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Speaker 4: perfect crime. I believe he wanted to get Maddie, he

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Speaker 4: wanted to kill her, and then once he gets into

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Speaker 4: the house, once he finds another girl there, all his

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Speaker 4: plans fall apart. That's why he leaves the knife sheet behind.

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Speaker 4: He did think things out. As the police well know,

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Speaker 4: there wasn't any blood, a trail of blood left by

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Speaker 4: the perpetrator in the house. All they had was the

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Speaker 4: touch DNA on the knife sheet. There was no trail

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Speaker 4: of blood going up the hill or where a car

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Speaker 4: was parked. He To this day they have not found

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Speaker 4: the murder weapon. To this day, they have not found

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Speaker 4: any clothes covered with blood from that house. And the

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Speaker 4: house was filled with blood. We've all seen the pictures

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Speaker 4: of the rivulets of blood leaking out from the foundation

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Speaker 4: of the house. So he did have some planning. He

437
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 4: knew enough. He thought to turn off his phone from

438
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,119
Speaker 4: two forty seven to four forty eight for those two

439
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 4: hours when the murders were taking place, and he was

440
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 4: getting me say hey, hey.

441
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: Hey, hey, hey, Howard Bloom, you're the fire hydrant. You're

442
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 1: giving me the information faster than I can take it in.

443
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 1: I can't drink from a fire hydrant. You've got to

444
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: give it to me teaspoon by teaspoon. And I'm telling

445
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:19,879
Speaker 1: you this book amazing. But Brian C. Stewart joining me,

446
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,119
Speaker 1: high profile lawyer joining us who practices in this jurisdiction

447
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: as well as in Utah.

448
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,399
Speaker 3: Brian, I hear what Howard is saying, I hear.

449
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,720
Speaker 1: What Joe Scott Morgan is saying, and I've got to agree,

450
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: I empathize.

451
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 3: I get both the theories.

452
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 1: The reality is the state never has to prove a motive,

453
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 1: but your ours want to hear a motive. So do

454
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,560
Speaker 1: you believe that in this case Josey's trial, which it is,

455
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: despite the defense dragging their feet and dragging.

456
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 3: The judge along with them, he's going along with it.

457
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 1: Do you believe the state has to pick a theory

458
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: as to motive because these two were not consistent, or

459
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: are they rage versus method?

460
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 10: Well, motive can be an important part of the circumstantial

461
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 10: evidence that leads a jury to understand why a perpetrator

462
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 10: commits a crime, But as you said, it's not necessary

463
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 10: to prove that they committed the crime. Here, you know

464
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 10: where Brian Colberger seems like somebody who's studying criminal justice

465
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 10: and perhaps sees himself as the smartest person in the

466
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 10: room or a narcissist. His motivation may be to commit

467
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 10: the perfect crime, and he would know that choosing someone

468
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 10: in another city who he doesn't have a relationship with

469
00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:42,359
Speaker 10: would create a lot of distance between him and the

470
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 10: potential victim. That's the first thing that police look for

471
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,359
Speaker 10: his relationships.

472
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 4: In a murder.

473
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 10: And he might have chosen Maddie as someone who's young

474
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 10: and blond and beautiful and might get him a lot

475
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 10: of notoriety as he evades justice. And so if that's

476
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 10: his motivation, that could certainly be the reason why he

477
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 10: chose somebody and doesn't have necessarily rage for Maddie, but

478
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 10: has raged for the system, or mania, as Harold says,

479
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 10: to beat the system.

480
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,840
Speaker 2: What happened the Fateful Night of the University of Idaho

481
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: for Murderous New Theories revealed in a special episode with

482
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 2: author Howard Bloom.

483
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 3: And joining us.

484
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 1: Howard Bloom has meticulously investigated so many facts of the

485
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:35,360
Speaker 1: case that we didn't know about, including Coburger's past, how

486
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: he lost one hundred pounds and had two different plastic

487
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: surgeries to remove a flap of skin from his stomach

488
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: that went down over his genitals.

489
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:49,360
Speaker 3: He didn't want that look.

490
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: He lost one hundred pounds on his own, had two

491
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: plastic surgeries to reinvent himself as a modern day Adonis.

492
00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: But according to his friends what I'm reading when the

493
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: Night comes falling. His friends didn't like how that transformation

494
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: changed his personality. He became, I know it all, very

495
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: aggressive and that was born out at Washington State University.

496
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 3: He treated his friends in high school that way. After

497
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: he got his new.

498
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: Look, he became in his mind the it guy, but

499
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 1: somehow he couldn't pull it off. What if anything, did

500
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: that have to do with the murders of four beautiful

501
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: University Idaho's students. Okay, you know, to this old panel,

502
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: including Howard Bloom joining us, I've got to have more

503
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 1: than what Joe Scott Morgan is telling me that the

504
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: attack on Kelly was much more savage than the attack

505
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 1: on Matty Mogan. Why all four of them were brutally

506
00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:59,920
Speaker 1: stabbed dead? I need to know who is my target?

507
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: And in this book Bloom describes a blood trail. He

508
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: also describes the blood literally leaking down the outside of

509
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 1: the house, which I observed when I went to Idaho.

510
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 3: But that's it.

511
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the blood evidence, Howard Bloom, What about

512
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:23,640
Speaker 1: the blood evidence convinces you as to who the real

513
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 1: target was?

514
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 4: Well, one point that you've just made about the wounds

515
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 4: on Kayley being so severe. Kaylee brought back. She was

516
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 4: not She was originally in the bed with Maddie. She

517
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 4: gets up from the bed, the room is very narrow.

518
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,040
Speaker 4: She tries to get towards the wall, but she's trapped

519
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 4: by Coburger and she's fighting back, and she is not

520
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 4: dying easily. It's a very violent death. And he's enraged

521
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: that he even has. I believe that he had to

522
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 4: encounter her. He did not expect her, and to find

523
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 4: this woman fighting back like a tiger is putting him

524
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 4: in his mania, is exacerbating the situation. He thought he

525
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,959
Speaker 4: would go in there and kill Maddie, who was her

526
00:31:14,040 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 4: presence rebuked him. I think that's what was going on

527
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 4: that night in that house, Nancy.

528
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 7: So there's a couple of things that you know from

529
00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 7: my think thought process in this one is you know

530
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 7: that Evening Colberger he's he's I don't think he's manic, depressive,

531
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,880
Speaker 7: or in a manic state in any way, shape or form.

532
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 7: My personal opinion, I think he's very organized. He selected

533
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 7: his target set on purpose. And the reason I feel

534
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 7: that way, there's a couple of things. One is both

535
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 7: Madison and Kayley, they're attached it to him from you know,

536
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 7: elementary school they go through, they select the same college,

537
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 7: they have the same kind of birthday party together. They're

538
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 7: in the exact same house. And that evening, when Coberger

539
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 7: pulls up, if he's our guy, he's got to see

540
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 7: her car. He's got to know, based on the surveillance

541
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 7: that he's been doing, that she potentially could be there

542
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 7: as well.

543
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 4: And so we have to now ask ourselves.

544
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, I disagree.

545
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,840
Speaker 1: I disagree because I don't know that Coburger knew about

546
00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 1: her new car, Arrange Rover that was new and well,

547
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: I mean it's he used vehicle.

548
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 4: At this point, Kelly is not really living in the house.

549
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 4: She's living at Court Dealine. She just comes in for

550
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 4: that weekend and he didn't know that. He didn't expect it.

551
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 4: And when he's circling the house, he's I believe he's

552
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 4: not really doing that night three times he comes and goes.

553
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 4: I believe he's not doing surveillance. I believe he's trying

554
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 4: to find the will inside himself to turn off the motor,

555
00:32:57,760 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: to stop the car, to climb downill and omit this crime.

556
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 4: Each time he circles the house, it's not to see

557
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 4: what's going on. He doesn't even really notice the cars.

558
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:11,200
Speaker 4: But it's really an internal battle he's fighting. If you

559
00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 4: had seen the cars, if you'd even seen the door

560
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 4: dash delivery, there was a DoorDash delivery at four am,

561
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 4: he might have reconsidered it. He was locked in, Howard.

562
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,959
Speaker 1: Hold On, Howard Bloom, Howard Bloom, you were taking our

563
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 1: program down a big path. Now I guess you're joining

564
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: us from Manhattan that you have never been down a

565
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 1: pig path.

566
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 3: But what a big path is.

567
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: It's certainly not a direct line or goes in any

568
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 1: organized manner. It just goes all over the place. But

569
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: you know what, Howard Bloom, that's the way an investigation is.

570
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 1: When I would sit around a table talking with investigators

571
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: and witnesses other das one topic leads to another topic,

572
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: leads to another topic, and it's hard to marshal your evidence,

573
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: which you did a great job in your book doing.

574
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 3: But guys, he brought up another thing, brought up.

575
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:06,719
Speaker 1: Bloom brought up that cobroker circles the house three times.

576
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: And yes, I'm going to get to that store clerk, who,

577
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 1: in my mind, helped crack this case. Who you say

578
00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,399
Speaker 1: wants to remain anonymous, and I don't blame her. Long

579
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: story short, how did you confirm, Howard Bloom that a

580
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: white Elantra, our car similar to a white Elantra circled

581
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: the King wrote address three times leading up to the

582
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: quadruple murder. How did you confirm that?

583
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 4: Well, part of it is in court documents and the

584
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 4: public affidavits. But I also spoke with the gas station

585
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 4: attendant who gave the surveillance video to the police too,

586
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 4: So a lot of that is public record. What is

587
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 4: not public record, clearly, is what was in the driver's

588
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 4: mind at that time as he was circling. Something. You

589
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 4: have to remember, in all of the surveillance videos, there's

590
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 4: not photograph of the license plate of the car. There's

591
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 4: not one photograph of the driver. You can't see who

592
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:08,880
Speaker 4: it is holding the steering wheel. The FBI has tried

593
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 4: everything to try to pull a picture from inside the

594
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 4: car of who was driving that night, and they couldn't.

595
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,800
Speaker 4: So Coburger, I believe, was the man in that Hondai

596
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 4: a Lantra, and he was trying to find the will

597
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 4: to cross over into the man who was thinking about

598
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 4: this horrific crime to becoming the sort of man who

599
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,760
Speaker 4: could commit it. And it was a difficult, difficult journey

600
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,360
Speaker 4: he was taking internally that.

601
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: Night, families of the slain Idaho four victims await justice.

602
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,360
Speaker 2: As a judge, that's a date for trial.

603
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that judge, many argue, is cow telling to

604
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: the defense. When are these families going to get justice?

605
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: That's a whole other can of worms with me. Howard Bloom,

606
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: the author of an incredible new book, When the Night

607
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 1: Comes Falling, a Requiem for the Idaho Student Murders. Okay,

608
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 1: all hands on deck to analyze what Howard Bloom was

609
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: telling us. Now, Howard Bloom, you crossed over into the

610
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 1: gas station video, which is later when I believe Coburger's

611
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,200
Speaker 1: leaving the scene. I going to go back to you

612
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: stating in your book that you believe Coburger, a white

613
00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 1: Elantra circles the crime scene three times that we know

614
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: of before the murders occur.

615
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 3: Now, not the gas station video you are telling me

616
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:33,240
Speaker 3: that's caught on video?

617
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,320
Speaker 1: Is it as you described at the end near the

618
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 1: end of chapter twenty, A guy who owns a rental complex,

619
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,959
Speaker 1: I think three apartments a rental complex nearby, and he's

620
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: got a camera on top of the rental complex looking down.

621
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: Did his video catch the launtra circling three times before

622
00:36:58,080 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: the murders.

623
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 4: Yes, and in this video too, they still can't make

624
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 4: out a license plate. They still can't make out in

625
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 4: the darkness the driver, but they are able to make

626
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 4: out the car. When the FBI in Quantico is trying

627
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 4: to figure out from these videos what kind of car is,

628
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 4: they try three different times until they finally come up

629
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,760
Speaker 4: with a Hondai Elanka from twenty eleven to twenty fifteen.

630
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 4: At first they thought it was just twenty eleven to

631
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 4: twenty thirteen. And that's one of the reasons why Brian

632
00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 4: Colberger takes so long to find him, because they were

633
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 4: the authorities in Washington State were really looking for the

634
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 4: wrong car.

635
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,960
Speaker 3: Hey, just got Morgan, and everybody jump in.

636
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: I'm going to circle back to you, Brian Stewart about

637
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 1: MENSREA about intent.

638
00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 3: Is it even needed?

639
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: Do we need explicit intent or is it implicit by

640
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 1: the number of the killings that we have murder ones,

641
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:54,759
Speaker 1: of course we do. But I want to talk to

642
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: you about the legal theory before that just got Morgan.

643
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: You hear Howard Bloom describing three times he circled that

644
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: we know of, and it's caught, I believe on the

645
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: top of that rental facility. There's a camera up on

646
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,480
Speaker 1: the roofs and I looked everywhere when I was out there,

647
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, I went very slowly, and it was

648
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:19,279
Speaker 1: slippery and icy, and I fell more than once. I

649
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: looked all the way up and down the street for

650
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: surveillance videos.

651
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 3: It's very narrow. I've told you this story.

652
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: I could sit on one side of the street, look

653
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:31,840
Speaker 1: into the kitchen window across the street and tell you

654
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: what kind of liquid soap they had sitting on their

655
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 1: sink at the kitchen window.

656
00:38:37,280 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 3: It's that close. I did not see the overhead surveillance

657
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 3: camera on that rental. It's on the roof. It's incredible.

658
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: Now he was talking about the FBI tried everything to

659
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: enhance the tag and the driver.

660
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 3: How how what do they do to anhants.

661
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,360
Speaker 9: They're washing this thing through various programs that they have

662
00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 9: Nancy in order to try to and down the image

663
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:06,080
Speaker 9: because it's I'm sure that it's very granulated, particularly given

664
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 9: the nighttime status of this where you're not going to

665
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 9: be able to pick up you know, without some kind

666
00:39:12,040 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 9: of light enhancement like an infrared or something like this

667
00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:17,719
Speaker 9: that'll be able to give you finer detail. So it's

668
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 9: going to be greatly compromised. And look, you know, you

669
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 9: have to think about the house itself. This house is

670
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 9: kind of shaded in darkness from the rear. You're not

671
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:29,319
Speaker 9: going to see a lot there. There's not a lot.

672
00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:31,399
Speaker 9: It's not like being in a huge city where you've

673
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,759
Speaker 9: got street lights that are all over the place that'll

674
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 9: be illuminating this environment. So it's going to be a

675
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 9: tough ask if you're thinking about attempting to get an

676
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 9: image that's capturable so that they can do what they

677
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 9: need to do in order to identify this individual.

678
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,360
Speaker 3: Okay, Ted Scott, just please stop. You know what I

679
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 3: can see.

680
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: I can see a tiny little crater on the moon,

681
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: but I can't get the tag number or the visage

682
00:39:58,640 --> 00:39:59,959
Speaker 1: of Coburger's fail.

683
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 9: Why because these houses don't have the Hubble telescope on them.

684
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 3: Nobody likes it, smart alec or I know what all,

685
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 3: Joe Scott.

686
00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 9: Well, you're the cameras that you're talking about. They're not

687
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,560
Speaker 9: the highest of quality. I mean, look, I mean here

688
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 9: turned out every single day, they're in shops all over

689
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 9: the place. It doesn't mean that it's going to be

690
00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:19,280
Speaker 9: a great quality.

691
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: Did Brian Koberger's parents suspect their son? An explosive new

692
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: book suggests family knew more than they ever let on

693
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 2: about their troubled son.

694
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 3: Howard Bloom.

695
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: His book is so talk full of evidence and facts

696
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 1: supporting what many of us have been thinking and pondering,

697
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 1: and so much more.

698
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 3: When the night comes falling my Howard Bloom.

699
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,000
Speaker 1: Howard, we were just talking to Joe Scott Morgan about

700
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,440
Speaker 1: why the FBI could not enhance.

701
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 3: That video better than it did? I get it, But

702
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 3: I heard you saying something in the background.

703
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 9: What was that?

704
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 4: Well, not only couldn't they enhance the video, the FBI

705
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 4: has this program developed really for anti terrorism activities, and

706
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,759
Speaker 4: they tried three different times to analyze the car, and

707
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 4: they got three different years. Originally they had the car

708
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,800
Speaker 4: was not a HONDEI a Lantra. They made a Nissan CenTra,

709
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:18,400
Speaker 4: and then finally there was a twenty eleven, and then

710
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 4: it's twenty thirteen, and then they finally played at the

711
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 4: end said twenty eleven to twenty fifteen. I can assure

712
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 4: you the FBI's fumblings will come up in court. I'm

713
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 4: sure the fence will raise this and try to impugne

714
00:41:31,760 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 4: the identification of the car.

715
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,440
Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, Wait a minute, Wait a minute,

716
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: the FBI fumbling, I don't see them fumbling here.

717
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 3: What do you mean by that?

718
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,680
Speaker 4: Well, fumbling in the sense that their technology was just

719
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 4: not up to snuff and they gave declarations. The first

720
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 4: original be on the lookout notice was not for a

721
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 4: twenty to fifteen HONDEI Alantra. It was for a twenty

722
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 4: eleven Honde Alundra.

723
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 3: How old on.

724
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: Howard Bloom you mentioned a detail, and I'm not sure

725
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 1: if you thought I was just going to ignore it

726
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:07,240
Speaker 1: or didn't catch it, But you said the FBI.

727
00:42:09,120 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 3: Was trying to enhance. They tried it three times, I

728
00:42:11,560 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 3: believe you said.

729
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: But are you referring to the type of video surveillance

730
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:24,680
Speaker 1: that was ultimately introduced in the Kyle Rittenhouse case, where

731
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: we had satellite surveillance from nearly nine thousand seat in

732
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: the air to figure out what really happened and there

733
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 1: was video. Did the FBI go to the extent of

734
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,839
Speaker 1: grabbing SAT video This was much more rudimentary.

735
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 4: What they had was the surveillance photograph and they tried

736
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 4: to enhance it. These were grainy photographs, and they thought

737
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 4: they run them through this machine, this process, this computer

738
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 4: program that was developed at vast expense by the Department

739
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,279
Speaker 4: of Defense and Homeland Security, originally for terrorism activities, and

740
00:43:04,360 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 4: they thought they could get the identity of the car,

741
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 4: and then they passed it out in their original be

742
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:13,200
Speaker 4: on the lookout at the Moscow police sent nationwide for

743
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 4: a twenty eleven to twenty thirteen Conde Alandra. That was

744
00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 4: a mistake. That wasn't the year of the car they

745
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 4: ultimately decided was Coberg.

746
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, New and very disturbing details

747
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: emerging surrounding the Brian Coberger quadruple murder case and Nancy Grace.

748
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us.

749
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,720
Speaker 2: What happened the Fateful Night of the University of Idaho

750
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: for murders. New theories revealed in a special episode with

751
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 2: author Howard Bloom.

752
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us with us, Author Howard

753
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: Bloom has just come out with an incredible book full

754
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:08,800
Speaker 1: chock full of not only theories, but facts supporting the theory.

755
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: Supporting the hypothesis of the prosecution that Brian Coberg in

756
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:19,880
Speaker 1: fact murdered four young University Idaho's students, Howard Bloom, You

757
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:25,560
Speaker 1: describe in depth what happens with the two surviving roommates,

758
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 1: Dylan and Bethany Listen in the early.

759
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,560
Speaker 6: Morning hours between four am and four thirty AM. Dylan

760
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 6: Mortensen says she calls out to her friends, who she

761
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 6: thinks are being too loud. After hearing more loud noises,

762
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 6: Mortenson again tells her roommates to calm down, she's trying

763
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 6: to sleep. She turns and locks her door. Hearing loud

764
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 6: noises again, Mortensen opens the door and sees Brian Coberger

765
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 6: allegedly and believing him to be a partygoer who is leaving,

766
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:52,280
Speaker 6: says nothing, shuts and locks her door again.

767
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 1: The girl that lived, according to prosecutors, Brian Coburger went

768
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: into the home on King Road with a mission.

769
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 3: To commit the perfect murder.

770
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 1: Could he actually commit mass murder and not leave a

771
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 1: trace behind? And what about the two that lived? Dylan

772
00:45:16,800 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 1: Mortenson and Bethany Funk.

773
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 3: Listen.

774
00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 6: Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk are both home while their

775
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 6: friends are murdered upstairs, and they are left unharmed. Sources

776
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,840
Speaker 6: to ABC News and author Howard Bloom that Mortenson and

777
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:32,919
Speaker 6: Funk were using their cell phones to communicate before, during,

778
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 6: and after the murders. Many have wondered, since Mortenson and

779
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 6: Funk were both in the home and on their cell

780
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 6: phones when the murders are taking place, why is there

781
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 6: an eight hour delay before police are called in. Why

782
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 6: were other friends called before police?

783
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 1: Howard Bloom joining us with an all star panel, and guys,

784
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:52,959
Speaker 1: remember we're not having high tea at Windsor Castle. Jump

785
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 1: in with your own theories and questions. The state could

786
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: use them, Howard Bloom. I'm curious as well, and you

787
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 1: devote a lot of time to this in your book

788
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: when the night comes falling about the delay on Dylan

789
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 1: Mortenson's part, she actually sees the killer leaving the home.

790
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 1: There's a serious delay and during that time a lot

791
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: of evidence could and.

792
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 3: Most likely was lost.

793
00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:30,279
Speaker 1: Question to you you described the police grappling with that's

794
00:46:30,320 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 1: seven to eight hour delay.

795
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 4: Describe that the police are dumbfounded. They can't understand how

796
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 4: this girl could see a killer in the house and

797
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:46,960
Speaker 4: do nothing about it. Her behavior is irrational, and I

798
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 4: think vote ultimately, the police and I have concluded that

799
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 4: a rational explanation is impossible. I think she was locked

800
00:46:56,160 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 4: in a state of terror. I also believe Cobert has

801
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 4: he descended and passed her on his way out of

802
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 4: the house, was locked in his own state of mania.

803
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,920
Speaker 4: He was surrounded by his own armory of hate, if

804
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 4: you will. If Dylan had spoken out, if she had

805
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 4: tried to penetrate the moment that he was locked in,

806
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 4: I think she would have died. I think she would

807
00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:24,439
Speaker 4: have become another victim her terror. Her silence saved her life.

808
00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 1: You know, I haven't really thought about it in the

809
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: way that you just stated it, which is chilling. Justcott

810
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,800
Speaker 1: Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, Jacksonville State University, author on

811
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of a hit.

812
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 3: Series Body Bags podcast.

813
00:47:42,480 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: We've gone round and round about Dylan Mortenson, more so

814
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: than Bethany, because Bethany, while there, did not see the

815
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 1: perpetrator leaving. That's why more focus has been on Dylan Mortenson.

816
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,640
Speaker 1: What do you make of what Howard Bloom just said.

817
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 3: I agree with him. If she had uttered a sound,

818
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 3: she would be dead. Right now.

819
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 9: I agree. Here's my perspective. I think that there's an

820
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,439
Speaker 9: element to this where Coburger, if he did in fact

821
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:19,600
Speaker 9: commit these crimes, was in such an exhausted state he

822
00:48:19,760 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 9: has tunnel vision at this point in time. He's trying

823
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,160
Speaker 9: to clear himself of the scene. Think about all of

824
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:29,799
Speaker 9: the energy that he has expended at this point in time,

825
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:33,120
Speaker 9: starting on that top floor where there's just a slaughter

826
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 9: that has taken place allegedly at his own hands, and

827
00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 9: then to be surprised by the other two residents on

828
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 9: this floor, with Zana and Ethan, he has to encounter

829
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 9: them and make his way past them. I don't know

830
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,640
Speaker 9: that people, and I hope people never do, understand the

831
00:48:51,760 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 9: amount of energy that would go in to try to

832
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 9: commit this kind of heinous crime, and so he's locked in.

833
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,960
Speaker 9: I think that probably she had in fact spoken, she

834
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,520
Speaker 9: would have just become an obstacle to him that he's

835
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 9: trying to defeat to make his way to that door

836
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,399
Speaker 9: so he can get out and get in that car

837
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 9: and leave.

838
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 1: Much the way, according to Howard Bloom Kelley Gonsolvis became

839
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: let me just see an impediment because of the ferocity

840
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 1: of the attack on Kelly Gonsoves and her father said

841
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 1: that he believed Kelly was the target. Now Bloom is

842
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 1: saying Maddie was the target and Kelly was in the way,

843
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,800
Speaker 1: So that supports what you're saying. But I want to

844
00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: follow up with doctor Angela Arnold.

845
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 3: I want you to hear this. Howard Bloom and Brian.

846
00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:49,200
Speaker 1: Stewart, you often have to go to state of mind

847
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,560
Speaker 1: as a trial lawyer. Doctor Angela Arnold is with US

848
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find

849
00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 1: her at angela Arnold MD dot com. Doctor Angie, analyze

850
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 1: what we've just heard. How or could I use that

851
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: at trial to explain to this jury why Dylan Mortenson

852
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: did nothing. Now I have defended Dylan Mortenson from the

853
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:18,200
Speaker 1: get go. Dylan Mortenson is a crime victim. Let's not

854
00:50:18,280 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: forget that before everybody heaps on what she did wrong. Okay,

855
00:50:23,239 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 1: she did nothing wrong. She had been out like many

856
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: many thousands of vandals. That's the college mascot, drinking and

857
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: having a good time. There was a football game that weekend.

858
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: She comes home, it's really late at nine, around four am.

859
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 1: She's been partying. She hears a noise, she hears the dog,

860
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: she hears her roommates saying something, and she gets up

861
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: in that state of mind, How does she know who

862
00:50:57,239 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 1: he was, that he was a killer?

863
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:00,719
Speaker 3: How does she know he.

864
00:51:00,920 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 1: Wasn't just someone visiting and leaving. People were ordering food,

865
00:51:05,360 --> 00:51:07,680
Speaker 1: people were going to sleep. They've been partying all night long.

866
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: It's four in the morning. Is that why she didn't

867
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: call nine one one? Now the crux the rub is

868
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 1: going to be what's in the cell phone communications between

869
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:26,439
Speaker 1: Bethany and Dylan. But can you think of, as a psychiatrist,

870
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: a rational explanation as to why Dylan did not call

871
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:31,880
Speaker 1: nine one one?

872
00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 8: Yes, I can, Nancy, because these are let's just remember,

873
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 8: these are kids that are in college. They're partying, it's

874
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,680
Speaker 8: close to the end of the semester. Would anyone in

875
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 8: their right mind think, oh my god, there's a killer

876
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 8: in the house and my friends have been killed. I

877
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 8: am sure that didn't even enter their minds. There was noise,

878
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 8: Apparently there was always a lot of coming and going

879
00:51:57,239 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 8: from this house because they're just kids in calling having

880
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:04,560
Speaker 8: a good time, right, that was the culture there. So

881
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 8: she did nothing wrong. I have a feeling that with

882
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 8: all of the communication back and forth and everything. She

883
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 8: had no idea who he was. He wasn't, She didn't

884
00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 8: recognize him. He was just somebody walking through the house.

885
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 8: And she was probably a little bit scared because of

886
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:25,640
Speaker 8: the noise that she had heard.

887
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,279
Speaker 3: She was a little bit shocked. I don't know.

888
00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: I don't know about her being scared, because if she

889
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: was scared, she would have called nine one one.

890
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 3: I think she was a little bit drunk, and maybe.

891
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,759
Speaker 8: She was Nancy, And so if she was, it's not

892
00:52:39,920 --> 00:52:41,320
Speaker 8: like she was out driving and drinking.

893
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 10: She was in her home.

894
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 8: He drink, slow down, sleeping it.

895
00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:50,359
Speaker 1: Off, Slow down, Nollie, you're preaching to the choir right now.

896
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 1: I'm on Dylan's side on this. Back to Howard Bloom, Yes,

897
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: I can explain away why she didn't call nine one one,

898
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: But what do we know about her communications with Bethany

899
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: during that time, the other roommate. Does it prove she

900
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: did know an attack was occurring, or does it prove

901
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: the contrary You.

902
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 4: Are raising One of the great mysteries of this case.

903
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 4: All I have been able to find out is that

904
00:53:22,440 --> 00:53:26,760
Speaker 4: testimony about those texts were given to the grand jury.

905
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 4: The grand jury heard about it. The grand jury reviewed

906
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 4: some of those tests. What they said, I'd be dishonest

907
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 4: if I said I knew. My feeling is, though, that

908
00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 4: Dylan and Bethany are both victims. Their lives are changed

909
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 4: forever by these events, and we keep on looking for

910
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 4: a rational explanation for Dylan's behavior. It wasn't irrational night.

911
00:53:55,719 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 1: I think I know something. I think I can do

912
00:53:58,160 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: something Howard Bloom and be proving very wrong come trial time.

913
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 1: But let me go to a trial strategist on this.

914
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 3: Brian C.

915
00:54:07,960 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: Stewart, veteran trial lawyer who's joining us from this jurisdiction

916
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: in Idaho. He practices there in Utah. Brian, you've tried

917
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 1: a lot of cases, and if you want to win

918
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: a case, you marshal your evidence. You have a plan

919
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:27,919
Speaker 1: what you're going I recall when I would write out yes,

920
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 1: I would write out every question verbatim for every witness.

921
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 1: Of course, you know you have a plan when you

922
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: go into a fight, but when you get a punch

923
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,279
Speaker 1: in the nose, the plan goes to hey, right, so

924
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: you have a plan. Let's think about these communications, the

925
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:51,879
Speaker 1: communications between Dylan and Bethany. We know they were communicating

926
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 1: by phone. Thanks to Howard Bloom, we now know those

927
00:54:55,480 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: are not phone calls. They were texts. Those texts were

928
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: given to the grand jury who indicted Coburger.

929
00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 3: Think this through.

930
00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 1: I have a strong suspicion, a deduction that those texts

931
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:12,640
Speaker 1: were about what is the noise?

932
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:13,919
Speaker 3: Did you hear the dog?

933
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 1: What's going on? Are they still awake? Blah blah blah,

934
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 1: Because Brian C.

935
00:55:21,080 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 3: Stewart, if those texts were about, oh.

936
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 1: My star, somebody's in the house. Did you hear a scream?

937
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:32,600
Speaker 1: I thought I heard a fight and text to that genre.

938
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 1: I believe those texts would have been used as establishing

939
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:42,120
Speaker 1: a timeline. We would have heard about the nature of

940
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: those texts if they were probative, in other words, if

941
00:55:45,680 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: they proved anything.

942
00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 10: I think that's right. We would have heard more about them.

943
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:52,320
Speaker 10: They would have given us more information about what the

944
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 10: girls experienced during that period. But to me, the fact

945
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 10: that they were locked inside their rooms and sending texts

946
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 10: rather than talking or going to find each other tells

947
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 10: me that they were still in fear and didn't believe they.

948
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:12,600
Speaker 3: Wait a minute, Brian, I don't know if you know that.

949
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: My ninety two year old mother lives with us, and

950
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: my husband just gave me the greatest gift ever. I

951
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:22,920
Speaker 1: don't like jewelry, fancy cars or clothes, don't even say fur.

952
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 3: He gave me I Granny cam.

953
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 8: I love it.

954
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,719
Speaker 3: I can see what Granny is doing at night. Has

955
00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 3: she fallen on the floor? Is she wandering around aimlessly?

956
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 1: Do I need to go get out of bed at

957
00:56:37,440 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: three am and go check on her like I did

958
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 1: the first eight years she lived with us?

959
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 3: How easy is it to text?

960
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 1: Why do you want to get up when you're wearing

961
00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: nothing but a T shirt, go out in the hall,

962
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 1: knock on your roommate's door and.

963
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:53,759
Speaker 3: Go, hey, wake up. I've got a question.

964
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 1: What's going on up there? Technical term? I don't know

965
00:56:57,080 --> 00:56:58,439
Speaker 1: if you've got it in Idaho, in Utah?

966
00:56:58,880 --> 00:56:59,279
Speaker 4: B s.

967
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: Of course, what's their texting? I text back and forth

968
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: with the twins. We're in there there in the back

969
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: of the house, right, that's not I don't find that

970
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 1: disturbing at all at all, Brian, I don't either.

971
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 10: But if they had heard some struggle, if they had

972
00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 10: heard any screaming, it would make entire sense to me

973
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 10: that they would lay low and be paralyzed by fear

974
00:57:19,720 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 10: during those hours.

975
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: Okay, Chris mcdonnaugh joining me, Director Cold casese Foundation, former

976
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: homicide detective, star of the Interview Room on YouTube where

977
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 1: I found him, Chris mcdonnaugh, haven't we both agreed that

978
00:57:34,680 --> 00:57:39,600
Speaker 1: these two roommates, Dylan and Bethany, they were the lowman

979
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: on the.

980
00:57:39,840 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 3: Totem pole in that they got the bottom of bedrooms.

981
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: And the house looks very different from the front than

982
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 1: it does on the side than it does from the back.

983
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: In the front of the house, Chris McDonough as Howard

984
00:57:55,200 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 1: Bloom so vividly lays out in his book, whoever has

985
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 1: to live down there, you can't keep the light out

986
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:07,919
Speaker 1: even if you use darkened curtains. Every time a cart

987
00:58:08,040 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 1: pulls up in that driveway that parking area, and a

988
00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: lot of people do because.

989
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 3: It's a very steep and narrow road.

990
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,760
Speaker 1: It's one of the only places to turn around and

991
00:58:18,880 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: go back down the descent of the hill. This house

992
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:25,640
Speaker 1: is near the top of a hill and people are

993
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: turning around and pulling in. It's a party house. Every

994
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,600
Speaker 1: house around it as a party house. Constant traffic. So

995
00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: the lowman on the tone pole gets these two bedrooms

996
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: and that would be Dylan and Bethany eir Ago. Therefore,

997
00:58:42,840 --> 00:58:48,400
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough, they keep their doors locked and their curtains

998
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: pulled almost all the time. That is an entry point

999
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 1: to get to the other floors. So people visiting the

1000
00:58:56,760 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 1: second third floor residents often come through that door, So

1001
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: they keep their doors locked, Chris McDonough and their curtains closed.

1002
00:59:04,720 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 1: And that's why, and Bloom lays it out in his book,

1003
00:59:07,960 --> 00:59:09,200
Speaker 1: that's why the doors were locked.

1004
00:59:09,280 --> 00:59:12,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, you're correct, Nancy. I would agree with you that,

1005
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,840
Speaker 7: you know, the point of entry, would you know, for

1006
00:59:17,160 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 7: an individual like this who has taken so much time

1007
00:59:20,680 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 7: to you know, plan this out, potentially to come through

1008
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 7: that front door, you know, just doesn't make sense. The

1009
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 7: back point of entry would make much more sense, which

1010
00:59:30,880 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 7: also brings us to you know, the communication thought processing.

1011
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:38,880
Speaker 7: If I can comment on that for a moment. You know, today,

1012
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 7: you know, these this generation just communicates via text. Remember

1013
00:59:45,360 --> 00:59:50,360
Speaker 7: up until four o'clock, four am, they're still getting people

1014
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 7: knocking on that door. I eat the food delivery, et cetera.

1015
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:57,560
Speaker 7: So it it wouldn't surprise me one iota if at

1016
00:59:57,640 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 7: some point when these texts are revealed that they're communicating

1017
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,440
Speaker 7: with each other, they're trying to communicate with their roommates,

1018
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 7: and quite frankly, when it goes quiet and Coburger comes

1019
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 7: down those stairs, they may have even been thinking the

1020
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,280
Speaker 7: party's over, this is the last guy out, and they

1021
01:00:13,360 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 7: may have even gone back to bed, and so that

1022
01:00:17,200 --> 01:00:19,560
Speaker 7: end of it, Shelf the fear factor could play into this,

1023
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:23,560
Speaker 7: or quite frankly, like you mentioned earlier, maybe there's alcohol

1024
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 7: on board and they're just exhausted. They're just they're just

1025
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:30,439
Speaker 7: college students. They're going back to sleep, and that would

1026
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 7: account for the delay.

1027
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:33,760
Speaker 1: And much has been made to the fact that Coburger

1028
01:00:33,920 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: was wearing a mask. Why would she have not been

1029
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:39,400
Speaker 1: suspicious of that? Do I have to say COVID?

1030
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:43,120
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, and that and that does you know, play

1031
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 7: play into this?

1032
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 1: Now, early on we heard Kelly Gonsolvas's parents speaking out

1033
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 1: stating she was the target, and I understand that because

1034
01:00:53,400 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: her wounds were so much more heinous than Maddie's. But

1035
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 1: according to this new bombs She'll theory, Maddie was in

1036
01:01:01,920 --> 01:01:07,000
Speaker 1: fact the target. Also, we are learning from Howard Bloom's

1037
01:01:07,080 --> 01:01:10,600
Speaker 1: new book When the Night Comes Falling, that there is

1038
01:01:10,960 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: blood evidence that Ethan Chapin jumped up and confronted Brian

1039
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:27,280
Speaker 1: Coburger to protect his sweetheart, Xenna Kernodle to Howard Bloom,

1040
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: I know that you have researched this so much that

1041
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 1: it's may have become, you know, sop to you, but

1042
01:01:34,320 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 1: to us, the revelations that you make in your book

1043
01:01:37,920 --> 01:01:43,040
Speaker 1: are let me just say, illuminating. Tell me the facts

1044
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,400
Speaker 1: that support your theory that Ethan was stabbed as he

1045
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 1: was trying to protect Xena, and that after he attacked Ethan,

1046
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 1: he goes and says, don't worry, I'm here to help

1047
01:01:56,240 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 1: you to Xena and then kills her. Fact support your theory.

1048
01:02:01,440 --> 01:02:06,200
Speaker 4: Ethan coming up to confront Coburger is with testimony that

1049
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:09,920
Speaker 4: was made to the grand jury. There's also evidence in

1050
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:12,600
Speaker 4: the coroner's report that was shared at the grand jury

1051
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 4: that he was killed with a one massive cut to

1052
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 4: his neck that caught his jugular vein. Has to Xana

1053
01:02:22,360 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 4: speaking out first saying there's someone here, and then the

1054
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 4: assailants saying I don't worry, I've come to help you.

1055
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:35,680
Speaker 4: That's in the police documents. I think that's arguably one

1056
01:02:35,680 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 4: of the most chilling parts of this entire night, the

1057
01:02:39,160 --> 01:02:43,280
Speaker 4: suspect approaching Zanna and saying, don't worry, I've come to

1058
01:02:43,360 --> 01:02:49,360
Speaker 4: help you. I think that shows his maliciousness, his total

1059
01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:54,200
Speaker 4: commitment uh to the crime and to taking this victim

1060
01:02:54,640 --> 01:02:58,240
Speaker 4: and to making sure that anyone who encounters him is

1061
01:02:58,320 --> 01:02:59,080
Speaker 4: not going to live.

1062
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 1: You go into each of the victims' backgrounds painstakingly, and

1063
01:03:06,760 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 1: Xenna had an upsetting background as a child. Both of

1064
01:03:11,280 --> 01:03:13,560
Speaker 1: her parents had been in and out of jail.

1065
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:15,240
Speaker 3: And what does she do?

1066
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:20,919
Speaker 1: She survives, She works harder and harder and harder. She's

1067
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:26,320
Speaker 1: taken in by her aunt, and she is victorious against

1068
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:34,000
Speaker 1: all odds. And I am just imagining, imagining Joe Scott Morgan,

1069
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,120
Speaker 1: her lying there in bed with her sweetheart Ethan. And

1070
01:03:39,760 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 1: you know, I think you were with us at some

1071
01:03:42,880 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 1: point at crime Con before last, Joe Scott, when I

1072
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:52,440
Speaker 1: finally got to meet Ethan's mom, who is just amazing. No,

1073
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:54,720
Speaker 1: you were not with us, but then later when you

1074
01:03:54,840 --> 01:03:59,160
Speaker 1: were speaking, she stood up and started talking and during

1075
01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:07,400
Speaker 1: your address, and what a woman, the strength that mom had.

1076
01:04:07,520 --> 01:04:11,280
Speaker 1: She just just remembering her and what she said to

1077
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:15,160
Speaker 1: me at Crime Con still strikes me to this day.

1078
01:04:16,160 --> 01:04:17,640
Speaker 3: To you, Jo Scott.

1079
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:21,320
Speaker 1: Regarding the evidence, the blood spatter, the blood trail, the

1080
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 1: blood transfers, and what Howard Bloom is saying. I want

1081
01:04:26,440 --> 01:04:29,520
Speaker 1: to merge those because if I were telling this to

1082
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:32,320
Speaker 1: a jury, I would have to I would have to

1083
01:04:32,360 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 1: describe what Howard Bloom says about how Coburger comes into

1084
01:04:37,280 --> 01:04:41,720
Speaker 1: the room and he is confronted by Ethan to protect

1085
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:48,160
Speaker 1: his sweetheart Xanna. Ethan is murdered by a slicing stab

1086
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:54,800
Speaker 1: to the juggler, and then the killer as Ethan crumples

1087
01:04:54,840 --> 01:05:01,680
Speaker 1: to the ground, moves forward to his next target, Xanna Kernodle,

1088
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: and she's afraid, and he says, don't worry.

1089
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:13,880
Speaker 3: I'm here to help you explain how I can prove

1090
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:15,600
Speaker 3: this at trial.

1091
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:19,480
Speaker 9: I think that when you think about progression, we talk

1092
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 9: about in forensics, a commingling of evidence. And from the

1093
01:05:23,640 --> 01:05:27,040
Speaker 9: start with this case, and you're you know, you're trying

1094
01:05:27,080 --> 01:05:31,040
Speaker 9: to tie tie in the timeline, you're going to have

1095
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:34,200
Speaker 9: commingled blood evidence that you're going to find at the scene.

1096
01:05:34,240 --> 01:05:35,840
Speaker 9: And what I mean by that, Nancy, is that the

1097
01:05:35,920 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 9: two victims upstairs, if they were in fact the first

1098
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:43,680
Speaker 9: he Coburger allegedly would have had blood evidence on him,

1099
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 9: and not just on him, but also this weapon. As

1100
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 9: he's advancing into the Xana's room, he's already taken Ethan's

1101
01:05:51,160 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 9: life with the slice to the throat. He's going to

1102
01:05:54,360 --> 01:05:58,120
Speaker 9: advance on her. We know that there's very specific contact

1103
01:05:58,240 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 9: between the portrayer and Xana. She fought back as well, Nancy.

1104
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 9: We have indication that at least through one report, that

1105
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:10,480
Speaker 9: she had a defensive wound on her hand that actually

1106
01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 9: went down to the level of the tendons. That means

1107
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 9: that more than likely, more than likely, she probably grabbed

1108
01:06:16,800 --> 01:06:19,760
Speaker 9: hold of this blade as and then it's withdrawn and

1109
01:06:19,880 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 9: it slices through the palm of her hand. And we

1110
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:26,440
Speaker 9: have to think about this scientifically. It's hard to dismiss

1111
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:28,800
Speaker 9: the emotion, but you have to think about it as

1112
01:06:28,840 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 9: far as the progression if you want to try to

1113
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:33,480
Speaker 9: zero in on this and get an idea as to

1114
01:06:33,600 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 9: the order of these events. I think probably the biggest

1115
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:39,560
Speaker 9: thing that this jury is going to see in this

1116
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,600
Speaker 9: case when they see these crime scene images, Nancy, is

1117
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,680
Speaker 9: that both of these locations, both of these rooms are

1118
01:06:45,720 --> 01:06:48,000
Speaker 9: going to be bathed in a lot of blood evidence.

1119
01:06:48,120 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 9: The big question is how did he clear that house

1120
01:06:51,640 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 9: without transferring a bunch of blood evidence to either other

1121
01:06:55,280 --> 01:06:58,160
Speaker 9: locations in that house or certainly within the confines of

1122
01:06:58,240 --> 01:06:58,560
Speaker 9: that car.

1123
01:06:58,680 --> 01:06:59,120
Speaker 7: How did he.

1124
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 9: Escape that without having blood all over the place at

1125
01:07:02,800 --> 01:07:05,560
Speaker 9: his apartment for instance, That remains to be seen.

1126
01:07:07,280 --> 01:07:08,000
Speaker 3: You know, Bryan C.

1127
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:12,720
Speaker 1: Stewart joining US veteran tryal lawyer, managing partner at Parker

1128
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: and Maconcole. He practices in this jurisdiction, Idaho and Utah.

1129
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 1: You know, the defense is really going to have a

1130
01:07:20,920 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: heck of a time because the predatory nature of what

1131
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: was said to Xanna. Think about it, Think about it.

1132
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 1: I would lay it out for a jury, just as

1133
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 1: I believe it happened. Coburger walks into that dark room.

1134
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:44,200
Speaker 1: Ethan jumps up from the bed. He approaches Coburger to

1135
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,680
Speaker 1: protect his sweetheart Xanaker Nodle, who's still lying in the bed.

1136
01:07:48,600 --> 01:07:52,760
Speaker 1: He's immediately sliced across a jugular and falls to his death.

1137
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:54,640
Speaker 3: Right here.

1138
01:07:55,680 --> 01:08:02,040
Speaker 1: He then advances on Xanna, who's lying in bed, and

1139
01:08:02,240 --> 01:08:06,680
Speaker 1: he says the deceiving words.

1140
01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:12,840
Speaker 3: Don't worry, I'm here to help you, before he murders her.

1141
01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:17,679
Speaker 3: He is well within his wits.

1142
01:08:18,240 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 1: He is prepossessed of mind, and he has the wherewithal

1143
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 1: to lie and deceive Xanna. The predatory nature of his

1144
01:08:31,080 --> 01:08:38,719
Speaker 1: advancing silently towards Xana Kernodle is bowed chilling.

1145
01:08:39,600 --> 01:08:42,840
Speaker 10: I think the evidence clearly shows that he was clear

1146
01:08:42,920 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 10: minded and intentional about everything that he did that night.

1147
01:08:47,160 --> 01:08:50,360
Speaker 10: And you know, while we have to prove mensrea or

1148
01:08:50,360 --> 01:08:53,600
Speaker 10: a mental component in order to get a conviction, that

1149
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:57,360
Speaker 10: doesn't necessarily include the motive or motivation.

1150
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 4: For why he did the crimes.

1151
01:08:58,960 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 10: The mensrea would would mean that they have to prove

1152
01:09:02,320 --> 01:09:05,080
Speaker 10: that he intended the actions that he did, which he

1153
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 10: clearly did, and then that he intended to take those lives.

1154
01:09:09,360 --> 01:09:14,080
Speaker 10: And it's impossible from the evidence that's available to say

1155
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 10: that he didn't intend to stab them, that he didn't

1156
01:09:16,600 --> 01:09:19,719
Speaker 10: intend to take their lives, and it and it should

1157
01:09:19,760 --> 01:09:24,240
Speaker 10: be chilling, bone chilling, and to understand the ruthlessness of

1158
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,680
Speaker 10: his of his actions. You know it?

1159
01:09:26,800 --> 01:09:27,639
Speaker 7: How y'all do it today?

1160
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:29,160
Speaker 9: Good?

1161
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:31,599
Speaker 11: Good? Take look your driver's lines into real quick if

1162
01:09:31,600 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 11: I could.

1163
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:33,640
Speaker 4: So.

1164
01:09:33,800 --> 01:09:35,040
Speaker 11: He's right up on that man.

1165
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:38,679
Speaker 12: Man, you right up on the back end of that man.

1166
01:09:39,000 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 7: Old you ever for tailgating?

1167
01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 4: Is this your car?

1168
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 2: Okay?

1169
01:09:44,120 --> 01:09:44,360
Speaker 11: Cool.

1170
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:45,639
Speaker 7: Where are you headed?

1171
01:09:46,600 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 10: Well, we coming from w s U.

1172
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:54,240
Speaker 3: Where are you headed?

1173
01:09:55,320 --> 01:09:57,960
Speaker 1: He later says, we're going for tie food and the

1174
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 1: Dad's like, what uh you are seeing bodycam video when

1175
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:08,040
Speaker 1: a Hancock County, Indiana Sheriff's department bodycam when they pull

1176
01:10:08,400 --> 01:10:10,559
Speaker 1: them over and ask to see.

1177
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 3: Coburger's driver's license.

1178
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:16,559
Speaker 1: Now, it was arguing back and forth, and I claimed

1179
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,840
Speaker 1: vehemently that this was no coincidence because there were two

1180
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:26,280
Speaker 1: pullovers by local l E law enforcement in one shrip pome,

1181
01:10:27,000 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 1: When does that happen? How often do you get pulled over?

1182
01:10:30,080 --> 01:10:33,599
Speaker 1: I rarely get pulled over. So you get pulled over

1183
01:10:33,720 --> 01:10:36,439
Speaker 1: twice and you never even get a ticket. Oh no,

1184
01:10:36,880 --> 01:10:38,520
Speaker 1: that's stunt. To high heaven.

1185
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 3: With me right now.

1186
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,200
Speaker 1: Howard Bloom, author of a brand new book, When the

1187
01:10:44,320 --> 01:10:47,360
Speaker 1: Night Comes Falling a requiem for the Ito student murders,

1188
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:52,160
Speaker 1: which is amazing, and in his book he outlines how

1189
01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:59,280
Speaker 1: these two pullovers nearly costs the FBI their investigation, or

1190
01:10:59,479 --> 01:11:00,800
Speaker 1: so they thought.

1191
01:11:01,120 --> 01:11:03,040
Speaker 3: Take a listen to more of the pullover.

1192
01:11:03,920 --> 01:11:04,880
Speaker 12: What's WSU?

1193
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:13,200
Speaker 4: Yeahs that is why he married.

1194
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:17,679
Speaker 11: Sure, Okay, I have a hard time hearing you because

1195
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 11: of the traffic. So you're coming from watching the State

1196
01:11:20,400 --> 01:11:22,920
Speaker 11: University and you're going where.

1197
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, we're a little fight.

1198
01:11:30,520 --> 01:11:34,120
Speaker 3: You much about how to Howard Bloom.

1199
01:11:34,160 --> 01:11:38,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna circle back to the fact that, unasked, he

1200
01:11:38,400 --> 01:11:40,840
Speaker 1: starts talking about swat teams swarming the area.

1201
01:11:41,720 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 3: Methink thou dost protest too much?

1202
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:49,519
Speaker 1: In the immortal words of William Shakespeare, nobody asked, nobody asked.

1203
01:11:49,960 --> 01:11:50,679
Speaker 3: Yet he's dead.

1204
01:11:51,160 --> 01:11:55,360
Speaker 1: He's just regurgitating, vomiting the information when nobody asked. But

1205
01:11:55,600 --> 01:11:57,559
Speaker 1: I want to circle back to the so called hat

1206
01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:02,559
Speaker 1: box operation that you describe so well in your book

1207
01:12:02,840 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 1: When the Night Comes Falling. Explain and why did the FBI,

1208
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:11,240
Speaker 1: who absolutely was following Coburger as seeing his dad across

1209
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:15,360
Speaker 1: the country, thought that their entire operation they go up

1210
01:12:15,400 --> 01:12:15,960
Speaker 1: in flames.

1211
01:12:16,080 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 4: Well, as you point out, the FBI decided that Coburger

1212
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 4: was a person of interest. They decided this earlier, before

1213
01:12:24,520 --> 01:12:27,360
Speaker 4: they even told the Moscow Task Force. They kept this

1214
01:12:27,520 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 4: to themselves for either one of two reasons. The first

1215
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:34,760
Speaker 4: reason was that it was the identification was based on

1216
01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:39,240
Speaker 4: the genealogy genetics, investigative genetic genealogy, and they thought that

1217
01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:43,639
Speaker 4: wouldn't hold up in court, or a much more cynical

1218
01:12:43,920 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 4: explanation would be that the FBI didn't want to share

1219
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 4: the credit for Coburg's arrest with anyone else, So they

1220
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:53,479
Speaker 4: go off and follow him, and they have cars, they

1221
01:12:53,560 --> 01:12:56,160
Speaker 4: have a plane in the air that's following his route,

1222
01:12:56,400 --> 01:13:01,160
Speaker 4: and suddenly they see Coburger being stopped, and they don't

1223
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:03,320
Speaker 4: know what's going on, and they don't know what to do.

1224
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 4: Had a they think a local cop, a local sheriff

1225
01:13:07,479 --> 01:13:10,920
Speaker 4: had seen the be on the lookout for notice and

1226
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:15,439
Speaker 4: swooped in on this Hondai elantra. Or they're also wondering

1227
01:13:16,080 --> 01:13:19,719
Speaker 4: how is Coburger going to react he is a suspect

1228
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:22,519
Speaker 4: in a quadruple homicide. Is he going to get on

1229
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:24,640
Speaker 4: the you know, put his foot on the accelerator and

1230
01:13:24,760 --> 01:13:28,680
Speaker 4: tear out, or perhaps he's going to shoot anything as

1231
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 4: possible of the officer who's coming in to give him

1232
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:36,560
Speaker 4: this traffic ticket. The FBI decides to stand back and

1233
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:41,599
Speaker 4: see what happens. To their great relief, Coburger is allowed

1234
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:43,800
Speaker 4: to go through, and they figure, well, this is just

1235
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:47,600
Speaker 4: a traffic stop of some kind. Then nine minutes.

1236
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:51,920
Speaker 1: Later, it's almost laughable, howard, because the FBI actually has

1237
01:13:51,960 --> 01:13:55,920
Speaker 1: a bird in the air watching. They see one pull

1238
01:13:56,040 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 1: over by the Hancott Kenny Sheriffs, and Coburger goes on

1239
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:01,519
Speaker 1: his way.

1240
01:14:01,520 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 3: And then there's another pullover.

1241
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 2: Don't you know.

1242
01:14:04,000 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 3: They're like, what is happening down there?

1243
01:14:07,960 --> 01:14:12,960
Speaker 1: Why are they pulling over our quadruple murders suspect. I'm

1244
01:14:13,000 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 1: sure they were just and they couldn't say anything. And

1245
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:19,880
Speaker 1: they're watching from a bird, right, yes, I.

1246
01:14:19,920 --> 01:14:22,040
Speaker 4: Have a session. They're flying overhead. You know, it's a

1247
01:14:22,120 --> 01:14:25,160
Speaker 4: hawk waiting to swoop down in case anything happens. In effect,

1248
01:14:26,080 --> 01:14:28,080
Speaker 4: and they've been building this case for six weeks and

1249
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:30,559
Speaker 4: they're finally getting closer and they think the whole case

1250
01:14:30,640 --> 01:14:34,000
Speaker 4: is going to be blown apart before they've connected all

1251
01:14:34,200 --> 01:14:37,759
Speaker 4: the dots, and they are filled with a sense of panic.

1252
01:14:38,479 --> 01:14:40,000
Speaker 4: But discipline here what Howard?

1253
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:43,160
Speaker 1: They were right and this is no offense to Indiana

1254
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:46,920
Speaker 1: at all. But I understand where the FBI is coming from,

1255
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:48,400
Speaker 1: and you know how much I hate the fans. But

1256
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:51,920
Speaker 1: that said Chris mcdonnald joining me, director Cole Case Foundation,

1257
01:14:52,280 --> 01:14:57,439
Speaker 1: former homicide detective, and start of the interview room on YouTube. Chris,

1258
01:14:58,280 --> 01:15:03,040
Speaker 1: if they had stopped Coburger and he nutted up and

1259
01:15:03,160 --> 01:15:06,280
Speaker 1: they arrested him or sped off. Anything could have happened

1260
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 1: because we can't we can't predict what Coburger is going

1261
01:15:09,160 --> 01:15:09,320
Speaker 1: to do.

1262
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:11,560
Speaker 3: Just like his father, he had no idea what his

1263
01:15:11,640 --> 01:15:12,160
Speaker 3: son might do.

1264
01:15:12,760 --> 01:15:16,360
Speaker 1: We would never have gotten the evidence that we got

1265
01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:19,960
Speaker 1: when they finally got home to the Pocono area, remember

1266
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:21,280
Speaker 1: they were surveilled.

1267
01:15:21,400 --> 01:15:23,679
Speaker 3: They went in finally or in the early morning hours,

1268
01:15:23,720 --> 01:15:24,680
Speaker 3: they catch him, I.

1269
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:28,160
Speaker 1: Think, in his shorts or underwear, wearing plastic gloves and

1270
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:32,120
Speaker 1: separating his trash from everybody else's trash, and they see

1271
01:15:32,240 --> 01:15:36,680
Speaker 1: him go throwing trash in the neighbor's receptacle. None of

1272
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:42,120
Speaker 1: that would have happened if local authorities had arrested Coburger

1273
01:15:42,439 --> 01:15:46,680
Speaker 1: for a traffic violation, or if Coburger spun out and

1274
01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:48,800
Speaker 1: brought about his own arrest.

1275
01:15:49,200 --> 01:15:50,839
Speaker 3: So I understand why they were worried.

1276
01:15:51,320 --> 01:15:54,880
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, And not only that. If you remember this

1277
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:58,160
Speaker 7: offshoers leaning in, So if he would have seen anything

1278
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,200
Speaker 7: in plane view, you know what Doc Morgan was talking about,

1279
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:04,280
Speaker 7: you know, any blood transfer or anything like that. Well,

1280
01:16:04,320 --> 01:16:06,280
Speaker 7: the clock starts ticking right then and there. If this

1281
01:16:06,439 --> 01:16:11,080
Speaker 7: officer starts diving into this traffic stop that you may

1282
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:14,600
Speaker 7: have this fugitive task for surveillance team, you know, overhead

1283
01:16:14,720 --> 01:16:17,679
Speaker 7: and behind them going hey, what the heck is going

1284
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,720
Speaker 7: on here? So and quite frankly, I hate to say it,

1285
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 7: but I've seen this as well as many others numerous

1286
01:16:24,400 --> 01:16:27,240
Speaker 7: at times where you know, this thing could have gone

1287
01:16:27,320 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 7: south really fast, but fortunately they cut them loose and

1288
01:16:31,560 --> 01:16:33,519
Speaker 7: they were able to connect those dots later.

1289
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:45,679
Speaker 12: On Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, what do you say.

1290
01:16:45,520 --> 01:16:48,720
Speaker 7: About some black team there together shooting.

1291
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 9: Where the.

1292
01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:07,799
Speaker 4: Interesting all. It's horrifying because he's the universe.

1293
01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:13,360
Speaker 3: I want to tell you, sure y'all talk about volunteering.

1294
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 1: That's Coberger talking about the SWAT team as it related

1295
01:17:16,000 --> 01:17:18,240
Speaker 1: to a different homicide.

1296
01:17:18,560 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 3: But as you can see, he's going on and on.

1297
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:25,840
Speaker 1: And on about murders and swat teams that he wasn't

1298
01:17:25,920 --> 01:17:26,479
Speaker 1: asked about.

1299
01:17:26,800 --> 01:17:29,000
Speaker 3: And let's listen to more. Listen to the body cam

1300
01:17:29,400 --> 01:17:30,320
Speaker 3: so here, y'all.

1301
01:17:30,160 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 4: Work at the university there, actually work there?

1302
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:46,479
Speaker 11: Okay, okay, yeah, I hadn't heard about that incident just

1303
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:47,519
Speaker 11: yesterday or how many?

1304
01:17:50,320 --> 01:17:54,840
Speaker 9: About an hour to get involved the stops, I want to.

1305
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:57,520
Speaker 7: Not show this sutions if they could shoot somebody.

1306
01:17:57,439 --> 01:17:59,400
Speaker 4: They say, And then you don't know about that.

1307
01:17:59,520 --> 01:18:03,600
Speaker 3: Actually, it's really hard to hear it.

1308
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:06,479
Speaker 1: Remember that side body cam that Ellie is wearing on

1309
01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:11,120
Speaker 1: their shoulder, and you hear the deputy saying interesting, interesting,

1310
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:16,040
Speaker 1: and you hear Coburger's father, Michael say, well, it's horrifying.

1311
01:18:17,160 --> 01:18:20,760
Speaker 1: So Coburger knew very well how his father would view

1312
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 1: a murder, much less a quadruple murder.

1313
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:28,120
Speaker 3: So while the FBI and their bird in the air.

1314
01:18:28,040 --> 01:18:33,519
Speaker 1: The helicopter at SAYSNA is watching, two times police pull

1315
01:18:33,680 --> 01:18:37,639
Speaker 1: over Coburger route home. Howard Bloom in his book When

1316
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:40,680
Speaker 1: the Night Comes Falling, describes a quote hat box operation.

1317
01:18:41,640 --> 01:18:43,280
Speaker 1: Only if you're in law enforcement, would you know what

1318
01:18:43,400 --> 01:18:43,880
Speaker 1: that means?

1319
01:18:44,000 --> 01:18:45,000
Speaker 3: What does that mean?

1320
01:18:45,160 --> 01:18:45,840
Speaker 9: And what is it?

1321
01:18:46,120 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 3: How does it relate to Coburger?

1322
01:18:48,360 --> 01:18:51,479
Speaker 4: The hat box operation goes back to the days of

1323
01:18:51,760 --> 01:18:54,480
Speaker 4: the g men, when the FBI used to wear fedoras

1324
01:18:54,680 --> 01:18:57,000
Speaker 4: and they would trail people on the street. They'd have

1325
01:18:57,080 --> 01:19:00,479
Speaker 4: the fedoras over their brill cream hat. Well, there's the balanced.

1326
01:19:00,520 --> 01:19:05,000
Speaker 4: Techniques have changed. They now have cars, unmarked cars, planes

1327
01:19:05,080 --> 01:19:08,559
Speaker 4: and even electronic devices. But the term stays. It means

1328
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:11,240
Speaker 4: you're going to follow this guy it's a complete operation.

1329
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:13,519
Speaker 4: You're not going to lose sight of him. The irony

1330
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:17,040
Speaker 4: is the FBI loses Coburger for a while. They don't

1331
01:19:17,040 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 4: pick him up until a couple of hours later because

1332
01:19:19,800 --> 01:19:22,639
Speaker 4: he's taken a different route than the one they expected,

1333
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:24,840
Speaker 4: and they pick him up through a license plate reader

1334
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:27,800
Speaker 4: in Loma, Colorado, and then they stay on him.

1335
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 3: And it really befuddles me.

1336
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:32,880
Speaker 1: Why in the last minute, after all of his father's

1337
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,960
Speaker 1: research about the best route home it was a long drive,

1338
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 1: he Coburger comes up with a very roundabout, circuitous route home.

1339
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:46,519
Speaker 1: It takes hours longer than necessary, and his father is

1340
01:19:46,760 --> 01:19:51,479
Speaker 1: so walking on eggsheels around his son Coburger that he goes, Okay,

1341
01:19:51,680 --> 01:19:53,880
Speaker 1: you're the boss, Fine, we'll go your way, even though

1342
01:19:53,960 --> 01:19:56,599
Speaker 1: it made no sense and that was not the route

1343
01:19:56,640 --> 01:20:01,479
Speaker 1: the FBI was expecting, and they lose co reminds me

1344
01:20:01,560 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 1: of the securitiest route. I believe he took the night

1345
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:07,320
Speaker 1: after the murders to get back home. Oh my stars,

1346
01:20:07,400 --> 01:20:09,519
Speaker 1: we've got all the digital evidence to get.

1347
01:20:09,400 --> 01:20:12,240
Speaker 3: To the turning the phone off, the turning the phone on, the.

1348
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:15,800
Speaker 1: Cell phone towers, and it's really interesting speaking of that,

1349
01:20:16,479 --> 01:20:22,479
Speaker 1: Howard into your book, you talk about a pitch that

1350
01:20:23,160 --> 01:20:26,360
Speaker 1: Coburger makes to the local PD trying to get a

1351
01:20:26,560 --> 01:20:30,640
Speaker 1: job and internship, and you quote what he says in

1352
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 1: his pitch, and I found it really interesting how he

1353
01:20:35,479 --> 01:20:42,400
Speaker 1: would help rural police departments better analyze sell and digital

1354
01:20:42,640 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 1: data to incorporate it into cases and prosecutions, which tells me,

1355
01:20:50,360 --> 01:20:52,040
Speaker 1: of course, he didn't get the job, by the way,

1356
01:20:52,520 --> 01:20:57,920
Speaker 1: but it tells me how intricately familiar he is with

1357
01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:04,439
Speaker 1: digital evidence and supports the theory that he intentionally turned

1358
01:21:04,479 --> 01:21:08,280
Speaker 1: off his phone when he left the King wrote address

1359
01:21:08,320 --> 01:21:10,840
Speaker 1: and when he went into the King wrote address yes.

1360
01:21:10,840 --> 01:21:10,920
Speaker 10: No.

1361
01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 4: Very much so. Also that short note he writes reflects

1362
01:21:16,439 --> 01:21:20,519
Speaker 4: his arrogance, this sort of condescending attitude. Is he the

1363
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:24,919
Speaker 4: criminology doctoral candidate. He knows more than the local police.

1364
01:21:25,280 --> 01:21:28,320
Speaker 4: The irony is that within months that would be used

1365
01:21:28,360 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 4: against him, the evidence that they had compiled from cell

1366
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:33,400
Speaker 4: phones and cell phone towered data.

1367
01:21:34,040 --> 01:21:40,640
Speaker 1: Howard you reveal a receipt that was found regarding a

1368
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:43,200
Speaker 1: purchase of a uniform at Walmart.

1369
01:21:43,680 --> 01:21:45,520
Speaker 3: How does that play into this investigation?

1370
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 4: Well, Coberger has a blue Dicky's work uniform and worked

1371
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:52,439
Speaker 4: out for a one piece sort of body suit that

1372
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:56,880
Speaker 4: he bought, and police are now theorizing that he wore

1373
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:59,559
Speaker 4: that suit on the night of the killings. That's how

1374
01:21:59,600 --> 01:22:03,120
Speaker 4: he was able to escape without any bloodstains on his

1375
01:22:03,280 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 4: car whatever. Before he got into the car, he removed

1376
01:22:06,120 --> 01:22:09,639
Speaker 4: the suit put it into a plastic bag, garbage bag,

1377
01:22:09,720 --> 01:22:13,040
Speaker 4: they theorized, and that it also explains that long route

1378
01:22:13,080 --> 01:22:16,960
Speaker 4: home that you've mentioned previously. He found a place to

1379
01:22:17,120 --> 01:22:21,000
Speaker 4: dispose of this Dickie's worksuit that was covered in blood,

1380
01:22:21,200 --> 01:22:22,679
Speaker 4: and also the murder weapon.

1381
01:22:22,520 --> 01:22:24,639
Speaker 3: You refer to a Dickie's work suit.

1382
01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:29,080
Speaker 1: I believe it was purchased at Walmart, and that would

1383
01:22:29,120 --> 01:22:33,040
Speaker 1: explain not only why his clothes were not covered in blood,

1384
01:22:33,439 --> 01:22:36,280
Speaker 1: but the Dickie's work suit, I think is a jumper

1385
01:22:36,520 --> 01:22:38,800
Speaker 1: that you put on over your clothes if you wish,

1386
01:22:39,600 --> 01:22:43,080
Speaker 1: and that was never recovered. But to the receipt, Did

1387
01:22:43,120 --> 01:22:45,840
Speaker 1: the receipt reveal when the uniform was purchased?

1388
01:22:46,040 --> 01:22:48,719
Speaker 4: It was purchased, the best I've been able to ascertain,

1389
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:51,120
Speaker 4: I'm sure they have the exact date. I was it

1390
01:22:51,280 --> 01:22:54,280
Speaker 4: was purchased within a month of the murders. That's what

1391
01:22:54,439 --> 01:22:56,719
Speaker 4: I was told. I don't have the exact date.

1392
01:22:56,920 --> 01:23:02,200
Speaker 3: So not any time that he was working in systems.

1393
01:23:02,400 --> 01:23:04,320
Speaker 1: Remember he had a job where he was kind of

1394
01:23:04,479 --> 01:23:08,240
Speaker 1: like a repair guy way back when this suit, this

1395
01:23:08,400 --> 01:23:12,240
Speaker 1: Dickey's work suit was purchased just before the murders. And

1396
01:23:12,320 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 1: another thing, you go into great detail about the complaints

1397
01:23:17,520 --> 01:23:22,440
Speaker 1: filed against him at Washington State University by female students,

1398
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:24,240
Speaker 1: and it went on and on and on.

1399
01:23:24,439 --> 01:23:25,760
Speaker 3: It wasn't an overnight thing.

1400
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:29,920
Speaker 1: The faculty, the administration there went to great pains to

1401
01:23:30,439 --> 01:23:34,400
Speaker 1: document what was stated and to give him a chance

1402
01:23:34,520 --> 01:23:39,000
Speaker 1: to explain it. But you describe Howard the whole way home,

1403
01:23:39,520 --> 01:23:44,960
Speaker 1: how Coburger was seething about what had been said about

1404
01:23:45,040 --> 01:23:48,880
Speaker 1: him by these female students, and more important, how he

1405
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:51,679
Speaker 1: was going to beat the rap and how they could

1406
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:53,040
Speaker 1: not fire him.

1407
01:23:53,520 --> 01:23:54,840
Speaker 3: He was going to fight back.

1408
01:23:55,200 --> 01:23:57,439
Speaker 1: Little did he know they had already sent an email

1409
01:23:57,560 --> 01:24:00,799
Speaker 1: telling him it's over, or sent him a lets telling him.

1410
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:04,320
Speaker 3: It was all over. But that seething that you describe

1411
01:24:04,360 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 3: in your book was riveting.

1412
01:24:09,000 --> 01:24:11,880
Speaker 4: Yes, when he takes this trip across country with his father,

1413
01:24:12,320 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 4: he's filled with rage. At the same time, I believe

1414
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:18,120
Speaker 4: he thought he was going to be able to return

1415
01:24:18,200 --> 01:24:22,000
Speaker 4: to Washington State after the Christmas break and he would

1416
01:24:22,080 --> 01:24:24,880
Speaker 4: start teaching again. He thought if there were charges up

1417
01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:26,760
Speaker 4: against him, he could talk his way out of it.

1418
01:24:27,000 --> 01:24:29,120
Speaker 4: That's what he kept on telling his father. I can

1419
01:24:29,200 --> 01:24:31,960
Speaker 4: beat this. They can fire me without my having a hearing,

1420
01:24:32,280 --> 01:24:34,200
Speaker 4: and I can act in my own as my own

1421
01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:38,200
Speaker 4: defense attorney, and I can convince him that I should

1422
01:24:38,280 --> 01:24:41,519
Speaker 4: not be fired. He needed this job. This job, this

1423
01:24:41,640 --> 01:24:44,439
Speaker 4: teaching assistant, paid for his twenty nine thousand dollars a

1424
01:24:44,600 --> 01:24:46,240
Speaker 4: year or so tuition and board.

1425
01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:48,800
Speaker 1: You know, I looked at your sources at the end

1426
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:52,600
Speaker 1: of your book, and I don't see the sources for

1427
01:24:53,160 --> 01:24:57,639
Speaker 1: what was said in that car, his seething anger about

1428
01:24:57,720 --> 01:25:01,680
Speaker 1: these women. How dare they complain about him? Are you

1429
01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:04,679
Speaker 1: keeping many of your sources secret?

1430
01:25:05,439 --> 01:25:08,720
Speaker 4: Well, I've made arrangements with the people I spoke to

1431
01:25:08,840 --> 01:25:11,720
Speaker 4: that I cannot reveal their names. What I did do

1432
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:14,320
Speaker 4: is pretty much when I started into this is what

1433
01:25:14,439 --> 01:25:19,400
Speaker 4: the FBI did. They built a family tree of genetic clusters,

1434
01:25:19,600 --> 01:25:22,280
Speaker 4: and so they worked their way to Brian Coburger. I

1435
01:25:22,400 --> 01:25:26,759
Speaker 4: did the reverse. I went after the relatives of people

1436
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 4: who were related to the Coburger family. I kept on

1437
01:25:30,680 --> 01:25:33,680
Speaker 4: knocking on doors, reaching out to them, until I got

1438
01:25:34,160 --> 01:25:37,200
Speaker 4: some of them who were in conversations with the Coburgers

1439
01:25:37,479 --> 01:25:40,800
Speaker 4: to talk to me, and that was my primary sources. Also,

1440
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:44,000
Speaker 4: there were people in the town who had also spoken

1441
01:25:44,760 --> 01:25:48,480
Speaker 4: to them, in the whole Strausburg all Brightesville area of Pennsylvania.

1442
01:25:49,080 --> 01:25:52,679
Speaker 1: In his book, Howard Bloom describes at the very beginning

1443
01:25:53,400 --> 01:25:59,439
Speaker 1: the austere room where the murder case was worked at

1444
01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:05,439
Speaker 1: police and he says law enforcement divided their facts, marshaled

1445
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:11,920
Speaker 1: their evidence into two categories, empirical and rhetorical. Empirical the

1446
01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:18,439
Speaker 1: hard evidence. Rhetorical the why. And that's what we are

1447
01:26:18,600 --> 01:26:24,240
Speaker 1: doing tonight again, Howard Bloom. Thank you for your book

1448
01:26:24,680 --> 01:26:28,280
Speaker 1: and for joining us again to part two of the analysis,

1449
01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:31,800
Speaker 1: and we barely scratch the surface the analysis of what

1450
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 1: you have learned about the Coburger investigation. Thank you to

1451
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:40,000
Speaker 1: our other expert witnesses, but especially to you for joining

1452
01:26:40,120 --> 01:26:43,479
Speaker 1: us as we seek justice in our own way.

1453
01:26:43,880 --> 01:26:44,559
Speaker 3: Goodbye, friend,