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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside

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Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller. Every business day we bring

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Speaker 1: you interviews from CEOs, market pros, and Bloomberg experts, along

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Speaker 1: with essential market moving news. Find the Bloomberg Markets podcast

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Speaker 1: called Apple Podcast or wherever you listen to podcasts, and

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Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com Slash Podcast. Paul Matt Miller is

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Speaker 1: going to be really bummed he's not here today because

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Speaker 1: I know for a fact that he is a big

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Speaker 1: Call of Duty Slash video game fan, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about video games. Now. Joining us as Adrian Montgomery.

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Speaker 1: He is CEO of Enthusiast Gaming, which is a gaming

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Speaker 1: company that is based in Toronto, Canada. Adrian, it's great

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Speaker 1: to talk to you, and I just want to talk

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Speaker 1: about the video gaming industry broadly because clearly it got

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Speaker 1: a big boost during the pandemic because, let's face it,

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Speaker 1: over the last year, there wasn't much else better to

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Speaker 1: do than sit on your couch and play video games.

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Speaker 1: Right now that the world is reopening and you can

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Speaker 1: go out to bars, you can travel, are we about

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Speaker 1: to see a significant pullback in demand? Uh? The short

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Speaker 1: answer to that question is no. Uh. And the good

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Speaker 1: news for people like me and companies like Enthusiast Gaming

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Speaker 1: is you needn't um believe me. Just ask any parents.

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Speaker 1: Ask any parents if their children's love of their smartphone

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Speaker 1: and love of their video games has anything to do

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Speaker 1: with the weather or anything to do with the pandemic,

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Speaker 1: And the answer is is ten times that attend. No.

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Speaker 1: This is a visceral connection that young people have with

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Speaker 1: video games. Um. It is their favorite sport, it is

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Speaker 1: their favorite pastime. It is how they connect with their friends,

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Speaker 1: it is how they spend their money, it's how they

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Speaker 1: spend their parents money. So um, yes, we saw a

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Speaker 1: surge during the pandemic, but but that is not going

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Speaker 1: to going to claw backwards. Adrian, give us a sense

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Speaker 1: of kind of the future as you see it of

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Speaker 1: video games, whether it's you know, the mobility of it,

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Speaker 1: kind of the platform agnostic kind of how do you

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Speaker 1: think about that? Well, first of all, the thing that

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Speaker 1: needs to be understood among people who perhaps didn't grow

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Speaker 1: up with video games is that video games is the

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Speaker 1: new social network. Yeah, you, you and me both video

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Speaker 1: games is the new social network. Young people are staying

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Speaker 1: in touch, making new friends, my CFO. He had two

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Speaker 1: people at his wedding last year he only ever met

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Speaker 1: over the Xbox console. This is this is real, This

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Speaker 1: is this is and and try telling him those relationships

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Speaker 1: aren't worthy of a wedding invitation. Um, this is how

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Speaker 1: people connect with each other. And so, as you know,

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Speaker 1: three out of four gen zears don't watch television, they

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Speaker 1: don't listen to the radio, they don't read things called newspapers.

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Speaker 1: But they they watch video games and they congregate in

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Speaker 1: communities to discuss them. And so as we move forward,

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Speaker 1: video games will be the nexus for fashion, for music,

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Speaker 1: for pop culture. Um, they're going to be pervasive for politics.

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Speaker 1: Adrian certainly m our company Enthusiast Gaming played UM an

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Speaker 1: interesting role with the Biden Harris campaign in the fall

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Speaker 1: of two thousand and twenty. Um, they had aggressively targeted

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Speaker 1: the gen Z vote. Um. Alongside them, you had you know,

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Speaker 1: Congresswoman AOC gaining lots of traction and attention by playing

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Speaker 1: video games with famous gamers. The Biden campaign took took

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Speaker 1: ads out in Animal Crossing and yes, seventy two hours

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Speaker 1: before the vote. Believe it or not, the Biden campaign

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Speaker 1: did a customized map in the game of Fortnite four

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Speaker 1: years ago, if you had extra money to burn for

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Speaker 1: four days before a vote, you'd take out an hour

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Speaker 1: of primetime on NBC. This time, they took over a

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Speaker 1: map in Fortnite, and I think that just shows you, um,

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Speaker 1: where this is going. So, Adrian, I'm looking at a

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Speaker 1: chart of your stock and again the symbol for your

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Speaker 1: company e g l X is the ticker kind of

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Speaker 1: over the trillion, twelve months, not much going on until

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Speaker 1: November and then it goes from you know, roughly a

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Speaker 1: dollar up to eight. Did you guys get caught up

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Speaker 1: in that meme trading kind of frenzy? I don't think so. Um, certainly,

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Speaker 1: much to artist's appointment, we don't seem to have a

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Speaker 1: whole lot of followers yet in those US based reddit forums,

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Speaker 1: like like the other memes stocks do. I think people

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Speaker 1: we were telling people for the longest time we have

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Speaker 1: three hundred million monthly visitors to our platform, um, and

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Speaker 1: I think at some point that started to register and

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Speaker 1: people started to understand the power and the rarity of

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Speaker 1: our platform. And then shortly thereafter, Enthusiast Gaming was added

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Speaker 1: to the list of the calm score one hundred, which

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Speaker 1: is the list of the hundred largest Internet properties in America.

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Speaker 1: And alongside Twitch, which is owned by Amazon, as you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's the only gaming platform to be on that list.

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Speaker 1: So I think people kind of woke up and said,

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Speaker 1: maybe what these guys are telling us is is the

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Speaker 1: real deal. And of course last week you had that

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Speaker 1: share offering eight million shares price a little lower than

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Speaker 1: where your stockrustrating at the time. Do you plan to

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Speaker 1: continue to raise capital or issue shares in that way

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Speaker 1: going forward? Yeah, we see in front of us, we

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Speaker 1: see an incredible opportunity to aggregate and consolidate more and

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Speaker 1: more of these fan communities, the digital fan communities um

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Speaker 1: AND and fan communities in all shapes and sizes are

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Speaker 1: are going to be, in our opinion, are going to

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Speaker 1: be more valuable. Uh, certainly as as third party data

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Speaker 1: becomes harder and harder to access and privacy revolution uh

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Speaker 1: sweeps the Internet. And so we want to aggregate as

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Speaker 1: many of these fan communities and in many ways were

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Speaker 1: looked at because we're a gaming company as as an

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Speaker 1: acquirer of choice. So we want to press that advantage

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Speaker 1: um AND and continual access to capital from great shareholders.

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Speaker 1: Helps us do that, Adrian, give us a sense for

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Speaker 1: people don't know kind of how you guys generate revenue.

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Speaker 1: Is it advertising as it events? Is I know e

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Speaker 1: sports are going part of the business. Give us a

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Speaker 1: sense of how you guys at your company generate revenue. Sure. Well, again,

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Speaker 1: very difficult. Corporate America of the corporate world is pulling

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Speaker 1: their hair out trying to figure out how to get

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Speaker 1: in front of gen Z's and how to get gen

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Speaker 1: zs to pay attention to them. So when you when

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Speaker 1: you reach three million of them, sixty million in the

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Speaker 1: US alone. UM. We we sell a lot of advertising,

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Speaker 1: a lot of digital advertising UM. And we were encouraged

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Speaker 1: today to read in the journal that that's expected to

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Speaker 1: increase this year. So so that's a good sign. But

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Speaker 1: we sell a lot of advertising UM. And the other thing,

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Speaker 1: we're starting to sell more and more and more of

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Speaker 1: his subscriptions and freemium content. UM. We've built a business

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Speaker 1: around avid video gamers, and avid gamers will pay extra

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Speaker 1: for extra content, and so these premium offerings, we've seen

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Speaker 1: our subscribers double year over year UH, and we're looking

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Speaker 1: at more and more subscription packages to offer UH content

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Speaker 1: licensing is starting to become a significant growth area for us.

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Speaker 1: It seems every O T T platform in the world

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Speaker 1: wants more and more gaming content. So we're putting our

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Speaker 1: channel channels on SAM some of the smart TVs UM

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Speaker 1: and then we're going to migrate to e commerce and

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Speaker 1: social networking and all those sorts of things. Lots of

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Speaker 1: areas to grow. It's a fast growing segment of consumer

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Speaker 1: spending for Shore. Adrian Montgomery, CEO of Enthusiast Gaming, they

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Speaker 1: have the largest gaming media platform in North America. This

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Speaker 1: is Bloomberg. Let's dive into the high yield market. Ken Monahan,

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Speaker 1: He's co had a global high yield for a MUNDI

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Speaker 1: about two trillion dollars in assets under management. So they

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Speaker 1: do a treat or too, I think every day. Ken,

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for joining us here. Looking at the

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Speaker 1: high old market, it's been a risk on market for

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Speaker 1: a long time. Is there any juice left there? Or

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Speaker 1: am I just clipping coupons on my high yield piece

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Speaker 1: of paper? You know, Paul, it's a good question. I

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Speaker 1: think the answer is you're right. Is it has been

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Speaker 1: a risk on market for a year plus now, after

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Speaker 1: obviously a big fade in uh In in March of

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Speaker 1: last year. UM, so we're up quite substantially and spreads

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Speaker 1: her back to pretty close to tight levels. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: I think we think they can get a little tighter

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Speaker 1: from here, not dramatically, um, but they can still get

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Speaker 1: a little tighter from where they are UM. And I

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Speaker 1: think that there's a couple of reasons for that. In particular,

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Speaker 1: if you have to recognize that the marketplaces, even over

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Speaker 1: the last eighteen months, has become increasingly double B centric.

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Speaker 1: A lot of that came from downgrades, but the quality

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Speaker 1: of the markets improved, and that would argue that spreads

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Speaker 1: a little tighter, tighter than two basis points for high yield,

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Speaker 1: that that is something right there. But of worse, what

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Speaker 1: has driven spreads in part to be this tight from

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Speaker 1: where they blew out last March was the FED and

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Speaker 1: the fact that the FED said, hey, I got your back.

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Speaker 1: We're going to have this corporate credit facility that's unwinding. Now,

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Speaker 1: what's the impact of that. You know, I think that

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Speaker 1: the Fed's decision just stepped into the high yield market

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Speaker 1: was important at that point in time and obviously provided

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Speaker 1: a flora not only for high yield but for other

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Speaker 1: asset classes at the same time. Um, So that was

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Speaker 1: critical at that juncture, but I don't think it's been

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Speaker 1: critical for the last hand, for the months or even quarters.

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Speaker 1: I think that the economy is momentum on its own,

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Speaker 1: is supporting in the direction of spreads. So can again,

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Speaker 1: the FED has been supporting, you know, providing liquidity for

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Speaker 1: this marketplace, and I guess that's resulted in credit quality.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's been much better than I would have expected. Certainly,

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Speaker 1: you know, fifteen months into this pandemic, is it potentially

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Speaker 1: masking Is the FED support potentially masking credit quality issues

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Speaker 1: that the high market's going to have to deal with

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Speaker 1: at some point? You know, there's there's a there's an

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Speaker 1: ideal here there that's coming to marketplace that you kind

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Speaker 1: of raise your eyebrows at. Um. You can see that

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Speaker 1: there's maybe a little bit more coming to market and

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Speaker 1: triple cs, but it's on the margin. It's I would

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Speaker 1: tell you, by and large, most of the credit quality

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Speaker 1: of the things that have been coming to market are

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Speaker 1: pretty reasonable. Now, we could argue about pricing whether you're

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Speaker 1: getting paid for the risk, but in terms of the

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Speaker 1: credit risk itself, it's not all that it's not it's

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Speaker 1: not all that sour UM And the other thing I

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Speaker 1: think you need to look at is um and we've

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Speaker 1: had an explosion of issuance this year. We're running in

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Speaker 1: a record pace and a lot of that relates to refinancing.

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Speaker 1: So companies are making use of the low rates for

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Speaker 1: treasuries and then the low spreads for credit to to

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Speaker 1: refinance their debt, even refinancing their term loans. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: just borrow because it's cheap to do so. So why not,

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Speaker 1: right exactly, you were talking about triple cs there in

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Speaker 1: the issue as we've seen, but we've also seen outperformance

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Speaker 1: in that risky is debt. What do you chalk that

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Speaker 1: up to? Way, I like to think if you look

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Speaker 1: at it was obviously on its on its rear end

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Speaker 1: last year and particular in the first quarter and to

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Speaker 1: a certain extent in the second quarter as well, so

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Speaker 1: I think it's a recovery from that. In addition, I

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Speaker 1: think that there's been a level of of cleansing that's

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Speaker 1: taken place in the triple V space, particularly if you

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Speaker 1: look at energy um SO, a lot of the more

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Speaker 1: problematic companies in the energy sector UM filed last year

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Speaker 1: and I think so that cleansing process really allowed spreads

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Speaker 1: to tighten and gave the triple sea markets winded. It's

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Speaker 1: back can talk to us about the funds flows into

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Speaker 1: the high yield space. Our investors still keen that they

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Speaker 1: can get some return in hiotas or is money going

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Speaker 1: perhaps even farther out on the re spectrum. Well, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's interesting to look at because if you look at

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Speaker 1: the high yield marketplace, you would see then as it

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Speaker 1: relates to mutual funds, which is let's say about a

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Speaker 1: quarter of the market high yield funds, whether you're looking

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Speaker 1: at actively managed ones which we're focused on, or ets,

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Speaker 1: there's been outflows, um, not in warm as outflows, but

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Speaker 1: there's been outlaws pretty much eaching every week this year.

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Speaker 1: Um and uh it amounts to not insignificant amount. But

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Speaker 1: I would argue if you look what's happening on the

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Speaker 1: other side, is it's clear that there are other buyers

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Speaker 1: in the market. So who's buying I think that their

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Speaker 1: crossover investors in particular that are coming in and that's

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Speaker 1: really been the big support of the market. And I

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Speaker 1: think the reason for that is if you look at

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Speaker 1: where triple bees are. They're trading at very tight levels.

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Speaker 1: And if you look at the spread relationship between triple

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Speaker 1: bes and double bes in particular, those are much closer

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Speaker 1: to historic averages than they are historic tights, and I

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Speaker 1: think that that's been very supportive of flows. Can we

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Speaker 1: only have about thirty seconds left, but if we get

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Speaker 1: a hawkish surprise from the Fed on Wednesday, what's the

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Speaker 1: read through to credit? Well, let's let's recognize that, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the on the high yill side, we're talking about

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Speaker 1: bonds with a duration that's half of that of an

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Speaker 1: investment grade, So does it not um the investment grade

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Speaker 1: market on its rear end? Potentially it has much more

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Speaker 1: negative impact though on i G. Than it does on

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Speaker 1: high yields. So that I think that that's our viue

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Speaker 1: as to what moment if that in fact happens. That's

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Speaker 1: very ratrically all right, Ken, Thanks, We appreciate you coming

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Speaker 1: on as always giving us the latest on the high

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Speaker 1: yield market. Ken Monahan, co head of Global high Yield

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Speaker 1: at a mundy U s Uh, that's interesting question because

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Speaker 1: we're gonna have you know, is a market you think

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Speaker 1: expecting anything like that? It's not priced for it right now,

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at a ten year yield at one point

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Speaker 1: for eight percent. That to me looks like it's expecting

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Speaker 1: a devish. That's right, right, that would be consistent what

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Speaker 1: I guess the rhetoric we're certainly getting from the FED historically. Well,

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Speaker 1: during the pandemic, it just seems like we're all buying

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Speaker 1: more online Amazon boxes. As far as the hi can see.

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Speaker 1: You see the Amazon Prime trucks all over the place. Um,

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Speaker 1: but that raises the issue not just for Amazon, but

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Speaker 1: for all e tailing, and that's counterfeit. It's been big

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Speaker 1: in the luxury market. What's happened here during the pandemic?

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Speaker 1: Ronya set Home, she's managing partner I've set Home Law Group.

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Speaker 1: She joins us here. Ronnie, thanks so much for joining us, UM,

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Speaker 1: talk to us about counterfeit luxury goods. I know it's

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Speaker 1: always been an issue for e commerce. Kind of where

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Speaker 1: are we today? First? Thank you so much for having

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Speaker 1: me on the show today. Well, the luxury space is

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Speaker 1: quite fascinating when it comes to counterfeiting, particularly on Amazon.

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Speaker 1: And what I find of particular interest is that the

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Speaker 1: counterfeit items on Amazon are sometimes double the M S

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Speaker 1: R P. In the store. So I just think that

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Speaker 1: UH is very fascinating and someone should study why individuals

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Speaker 1: are purchasing items for more money on Amazon. Is it

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Speaker 1: just convenience or is it something else? I have no idea. Well,

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Speaker 1: I Ranya must summit. I am a convenience shopper and

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Speaker 1: I probably get six Amazon packages a week. How would

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Speaker 1: I know if I'm buying something counterfeit? That is a

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Speaker 1: great question. So there are two things that consumers can do.

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Speaker 1: And I do purchase some items on Amazon, but not

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Speaker 1: all items on Amazon. And this is what I do.

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Speaker 1: Whether I want to buy a luxury good or I

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Speaker 1: want to buy a consumer good like christ tooth taste

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Speaker 1: or whichever tooth taste you like. The first thing I

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Speaker 1: do is determine whether or not those items are actually

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Speaker 1: for sale on the Amazon site. UM with the permission

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Speaker 1: of the brand. At the bottom of several UM brand

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Speaker 1: name websites, there's something called stockists or find us, and

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Speaker 1: it'll lift it out for you. So, for example, HP,

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Speaker 1: very well known brand, if you go to the HV website,

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Speaker 1: it does tell you that there are real Amazon products,

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Speaker 1: real products of Amazon Amazon, and that might give you

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Speaker 1: some comfort, and it should but the biggest problem them

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Speaker 1: with buying anything on Amazon is that if it is

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Speaker 1: fulfilled by Amazon, it means that the legitimate product is

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Speaker 1: sitting in a warehouse with fake products, and you don't

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Speaker 1: know which product you're going to get. Even worse, when

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Speaker 1: you see, uh the reviews for the product, it's for

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Speaker 1: the product, not for the product from this particular seller.

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Speaker 1: So consumers are at a disadvantage. What I customarily tell

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Speaker 1: people is, first check the price doesn't make sense in

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Speaker 1: comparison to the brand name that you know. Secondarily, you know,

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Speaker 1: check the reviews. If everyone loves the review and it's

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Speaker 1: thousands of people, you're probably buying an authentic product. And

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Speaker 1: then third you know, ask yourself, does it make sense

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Speaker 1: that this product would be on Amazon? So run you.

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Speaker 1: When someone finds themselves the victim of counterfeit, what recourse

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Speaker 1: do they have to say Amazon? Well, Amazon does have

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Speaker 1: a very generous refund policy, and I think that's what

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Speaker 1: they've been hanging their hat on as that term is

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Speaker 1: used to them. I think, again, this is just an

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Speaker 1: educated guess. If you can get a refund, the really

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Speaker 1: really isn't that much of an issue. But the problem

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Speaker 1: is that some of the items that you're purchasing, not

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Speaker 1: the luxury ones, but the consumer good products. Some of

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Speaker 1: them can harm you, and the refund may not be enough,

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Speaker 1: you know, depending on what it is you're suffering from

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Speaker 1: the purchase of the counterfeit good So it's just refunding

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Speaker 1: isn't enough. How can Amazon get a better handle on this?

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Speaker 1: What do they need to do? I think it would

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Speaker 1: be a very helpful if there was an easy way

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Speaker 1: for consumers to report UH fake goods or counterfeit goods

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Speaker 1: to Amazon. Right now, they are listening to the brands,

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Speaker 1: which means you would have to call the brand and

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Speaker 1: you'd have to tell the brand as a consumer, oh,

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Speaker 1: I purchased a fraudulent item from Ammazon, and then they

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Speaker 1: need to investigate, and then the brand needs to work

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Speaker 1: with Amazon. That UH takes a lot of effort. It

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Speaker 1: would be great if there was a mechanism for consumers

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Speaker 1: to go directly to Amazon and have their voice heard. That's,

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Speaker 1: you know, the first thing. The second thing would be

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Speaker 1: UH allow us to purchase items that are not just

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Speaker 1: fulfilled by Amazon. So we know if ABC seller is

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Speaker 1: selling this, and we've had you know, good experience with

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Speaker 1: ABC seller, we know, we're getting ABC sellers product as

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Speaker 1: opposed to a random product in the warehouse. So ron

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Speaker 1: you just give us a sense of Like on the

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Speaker 1: luxury side, I'm always shocked at people would buy a

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Speaker 1: luxury item, you know, worth thousands or tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of dollars without actually seeing it. But is this a

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Speaker 1: growing part of e commerce? I think that it is,

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Speaker 1: And I think what's happening is that some of the

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Speaker 1: luxury brands are so well known that the consumer likely

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Speaker 1: already saw the product at some point in time, and

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Speaker 1: they remember it and they're still pining for it, and

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Speaker 1: then there it is on Amazon and they purchase it.

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Speaker 1: There's no need to to look any further. Fascinating story, Ronna,

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Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us. Really appreciate that this

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Speaker 1: is a I guess a big issue, Kaylene. People spend

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Speaker 1: more and more time online shopping online, and you know

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Speaker 1: online has just grown dramatically over the past fifteen months,

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Speaker 1: kind of pool maybe three years of growth forward that

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Speaker 1: this can be a bigger issue. Yeah. Now I'm going

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Speaker 1: to go home and check all the products on Amazon

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Speaker 1: over the last six months or so exactly, Ronne said,

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Speaker 1: Home managing partner for said, Home Wall Group joining us there,

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Speaker 1: and we appreciate that. Again, Uh, we've seen this at

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Speaker 1: you know, the e commerce traffic just skyrocket and as

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Speaker 1: everybody when they were forced to stay at home, buying

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Speaker 1: more and more uh products, different types of products than

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Speaker 1: perhaps they were comfortable buying in the past, all because

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Speaker 1: of the pandemic, but a big change to retail. We'll

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Speaker 1: have more coming up. This is Bloomberg when the pandemic hit.

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Speaker 1: One of the areas of the economy that was hit,

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Speaker 1: you know, probably just so hard and so brutally was

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Speaker 1: the real estate market what we had. Obviously, if we

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Speaker 1: can all remember back, people leaving cities looking for the burbs,

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Speaker 1: looking for more room, uh, looking just to get away

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Speaker 1: from the congestion and the uh, you know, the density

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Speaker 1: of the cities. The question is how long term uh

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Speaker 1: is that. Let's check in with Brad Dillman. He's a

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Speaker 1: chief economist for the real estate firm Courtland. Brad, thanks

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Speaker 1: so much for joining us here. Again here in New

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Speaker 1: York City, we saw it firsthand, people leaving uh the

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Speaker 1: city for the suburbs. Rents plunged. If you want to

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Speaker 1: get an apartment in the city, it was a good time, uh,

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Speaker 1: to be a renter. Give us a sense of how

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Speaker 1: you think this market is going to play out as

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Speaker 1: we come out to the other side of this pandemic. Yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 1: and I'm glad to be here. You know. I think

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Speaker 1: we need to first recognize that this is a trend

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Speaker 1: that was occurring prior to the pandemic. The pandemic, of course,

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Speaker 1: accentuated it. It is something that we see across markets.

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Speaker 1: We see a migration from more expensive markets too cheaper

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Speaker 1: metropolitan areas, and then also within these markets from the

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Speaker 1: core out to the geographic periphery. So in many ways,

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Speaker 1: it's trends been underway since two thousand twelve. If you

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Speaker 1: look at pricing, it really is kind of compressing across

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Speaker 1: the spectrum in some ways. And I mean that between

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Speaker 1: markets and also within markets. So when we look ahead,

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Speaker 1: some people would say, hey, you know, maybe this is

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Speaker 1: gonna reverse. People are going to come back into the city.

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Speaker 1: The reality is there doesn't seem to be that much supply.

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Speaker 1: The bulk of multifamily supply, as an example, is in

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Speaker 1: the urban core. But if you look at it in

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Speaker 1: terms of units, it's really not enough to really move

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Speaker 1: the needle in an under house market. Again, You've got

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Speaker 1: estimates that the US is under built to the tune

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Speaker 1: of about a million housing units are more? Are we

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Speaker 1: going to see that supply and demand gap narrow at

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Speaker 1: any point? I think we will if we were to.

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Speaker 1: If we look at our gauges of of cumulative under

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Speaker 1: supply right now, it does look like we hit peak

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Speaker 1: under supply a few years ago. And then as we

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Speaker 1: see these excellent prints and things like housing starts, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, particularly on the single family side, that this

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Speaker 1: country's housing situation and will slowly right size from a

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Speaker 1: supply demand perspective. You know. One of the things Brad,

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Speaker 1: that I think I've learned over the last several years,

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Speaker 1: and we talked to folks in the home business, is yes,

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Speaker 1: new homes are getting built, but they're not getting built

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Speaker 1: for the entry buyer, the first time buyer, and that's

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Speaker 1: really where the supply issues are. Is that changing at

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Speaker 1: all or a builders still going for them the higher

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Speaker 1: margin McMansion. Well, builders are always going to switch their strategies,

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Speaker 1: you know, based on on short term fluctuations. Believe it

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Speaker 1: or not. They are actually little more nimble than we

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Speaker 1: would think. I think if We're looking at millennials, for example,

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Speaker 1: and just the age that they already are with the

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Speaker 1: vast bulk over thirty. Um, you know, the buyer the

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Speaker 1: the home builders are going to have to shift their

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Speaker 1: strategy at different times based on where where not only

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Speaker 1: costs are coming in, but also where mortgage rates are

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Speaker 1: going for where and when these millennials are able to buy.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if I would call it make

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Speaker 1: a systematic call on that kind of shift. I do

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Speaker 1: think you look at smaller oscillations that define that kind

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Speaker 1: of uh strategy on the part of homebuilders. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: in here guiltily raising my hand as a millennial who

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Speaker 1: is nowhere close to buying my first home. So how

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Speaker 1: if I'm a builder, how would you play me? Do

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Speaker 1: I need to build for renters? So you do have

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00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: home builders building four renters. This was really an opportunity

430
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: that emerged called it five six years ago, but really

431
00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 1: only got steam in the last two years. And uh,

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00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:23,919
Speaker 1: I do think there's a strategy there for home builders.

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00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:25,720
Speaker 1: But I think what they're gonna find is that rather

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00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 1: than building single filming attached you're gonna slowly actually migrate

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00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 1: more towards a traditional multi family structure. That's to say,

436
00:23:32,359 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: something like a town home style community where you can

437
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: fit more housing units onto the same into the same

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00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 1: geographic area of the community. I do think there's a

439
00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:42,679
Speaker 1: strategy there. I think we're going to see more of it.

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00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:44,919
Speaker 1: At the same time, when you have really low mortgage

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00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: rates like we do now, we've had very low mortgage

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00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: rates the last two years. It's priced off of a

443
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,400
Speaker 1: ten year Treasury rate that's negative and real terms, there

444
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,080
Speaker 1: is the occasional opportunity to deliver in scale to first

445
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: time home buyers or just you know, new buyers in general.

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00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: You know, out here in the New York metro market,

447
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 1: the story is Florida, Florida, Florida. It seems like everybody

448
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 1: is leaving for Florida. What are some of the other

449
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: I guess hot areas of the country that you're seeing

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00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: in terms of demand both for rentals and ownership. Yeah,

451
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: Florida flags well for US UM also. But you know,

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00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 1: an area that's been a little bit overlooked has actually

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00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 1: been the Northwest, and not just the Seattle Cascadia, but

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00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: really the peripheral northwest Idaho. So you've got Spokane, Washington,

455
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 1: and Eastern Washington, You've got Boise. These are markets that

456
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,200
Speaker 1: are looking really attractive right now. So I think we're

457
00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: gonna see a little bit more focused on that area.

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00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: I do know that there's some smaller homebuilders really focusing

459
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:40,919
Speaker 1: on places like Cort Lane. Uh. And of course these

460
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,399
Speaker 1: areas are supported by excellent migration out of California. But

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00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 1: if we get that migration and more people are going there,

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00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: how long is the cost of living that makes it

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00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 1: so attractive actually going to stay relatively lower. That's exactly

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00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 1: the point. It really is converging very quickly. If you're

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00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: a local in those markets. This is in many respects

466
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: that does us or four years as people bring kind

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00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,440
Speaker 1: of California purchasing power, you know to Boise, Idaho, it's

468
00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 1: a it's a bit tough tough if you've been, you know,

469
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: living and working in Boise on a Boise income and

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00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: saving a Boise rates. So we don't know. I think

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00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 1: that the clearest indication that we do have is just

472
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,560
Speaker 1: how long it's going to take to right size the

473
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 1: overall supply environment in this country. If we're undersupplied by

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00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,119
Speaker 1: about a million units, that's my estimate. There's other estimates

475
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,040
Speaker 1: out there. It's going to take about four or five

476
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,360
Speaker 1: years to right size the overall market, and until that happens,

477
00:25:29,520 --> 00:25:31,480
Speaker 1: you're gonna see a continued flight of people to the

478
00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 1: periphery until such times that things like you know, energy

479
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:36,920
Speaker 1: shocks or things like this drive them back into the

480
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: city when commute to become too arduous. But if we

481
00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: can see right now, commute truly aren't the issue, as

482
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 1: people can work from home more and that kind of

483
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,880
Speaker 1: trend is only going to support movement to the periphery.

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00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 1: All right, Bratt, thanks so much for joining us to

485
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 1: really appreciate getting your perspective on the residential real estate market. Renters, buyers, worthy,

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00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: growth is um and you know, interesting to see how

487
00:25:58,160 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 1: this plays out as would come out on the other

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00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 1: side of this pandemic. Uh, what will the market look like?

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00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 1: And Uh, it's gonna be interest to see which markets

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00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: do well and which lag Brad Delman, he's a chief

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00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 1: economist for Courtland giving us an update there. This is Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can

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00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: subscribe and listen to interviews with Apple Podcasts or whatever

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00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: podcast platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller I'm on Twitter

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00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: at Matt Miller three. Put on fall Sweeney I'm on

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00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 1: Twitter at pt Sweeney Before the podcast. You can always

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00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio