1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,320 Speaker 1: But knowledge to work and grow your business with c 2 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: i T from transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: T dot com put Knowledge to Work. Hello and welcome 6 00:00:24,960 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: to another edition of The Odd LODs podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal, 7 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:32,479 Speaker 1: Managing editor of Bloomberg Markets, and I'm Tracy Alloway, Executive 8 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:37,160 Speaker 1: editor of Bloomberg Markets. Hey, Tracy, how's gone pretty good? 9 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: I think get kind of nervous when you ask me 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:41,680 Speaker 1: stuff like that. Oh yeah, I just thought, you know, 11 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: it's been a while. I wasn't on last week, so 12 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,479 Speaker 1: I wanted to catch up. That's true. That's true. You 13 00:00:46,520 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: were away. You missed Matt Levin and Space Robots, So 14 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: I'm sorry a little worried um that he did better 15 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: than me. So I'm kind of I'm trying. I haven't 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,160 Speaker 1: listened to it yet because I don't want to see 17 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: if he's better than me, you have to stuff it 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: up today. So Space Robot, So technology is pretty cool. Huh. Yeah, 19 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: it's impressive and it seems to make a lot of people, 20 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 1: potentially a lot of money. So, speaking of technology and 21 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:14,680 Speaker 1: making a lot of money. You know, another cool thing 22 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: you can do with technology is I feel like this 23 00:01:18,120 --> 00:01:20,800 Speaker 1: is a trick go on. You can you can catch 24 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: up with old friends that you haven't seen in twenty 25 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: years on Facebook. No way. And actually our guest today 26 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: is someone who I don't think I've seen probably in 27 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:36,679 Speaker 1: like twenty two or twenty three years. He's an old 28 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:42,040 Speaker 1: middle school friend of mine from when I lived in Juliet, Illinois, 29 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,560 Speaker 1: who which is a kind of a suburb of Chicago. 30 00:01:45,120 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: Is is this what odd thoughts has been reduced to? 31 00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: You're just bringing on your your school friends. It is, 32 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: but there's also it is so part of it is 33 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: just an excuse to catch up with an old friend, 34 00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: but we're also going to be talking about there's also 35 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: a relevant angle related to technology g because our guest 36 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: is a historian of technology at the Stevens Institute of 37 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: Technology in New Jersey, and he recently gave a great 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: speech called the Innovation Fetish, which is about why it's 39 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: so bad that we're obsessed with words like disruption and 40 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: innovation and why it's so perverse that we can't stop 41 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:27,959 Speaker 1: talking in this sort of nonsense language that we've all 42 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: constructed and come to accept. So those are words that 43 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: we see on almost every technology press release that comes 44 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,519 Speaker 1: our way, right, We we read them and see them unquestionably, 45 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: like no one ever talks about why are we talking 46 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,120 Speaker 1: about innovation so much? And are we really getting anywhere 47 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 1: by hammering home the importance of innovation and disruption and 48 00:02:51,720 --> 00:02:54,200 Speaker 1: entrepreneurship and all these things that we've just sort of 49 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: taken for granted are good and maybe there's a dark 50 00:02:58,600 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: side to our endless Uh focus on this language of technology? Oh? 51 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: I like this. I like where this is going. All right, 52 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 1: you might be forgiven for bringing your friends on. Wasn't 53 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: totally contrived? So with us is Leavin Soul. He's a professor, 54 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, at the Stevens Institute of Technology. Leah, 55 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: it's great to see you and thanks for joining us. 56 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 1: Thanks for having me here. Uh So your talk uh 57 00:03:23,560 --> 00:03:27,880 Speaker 1: the innovation fetish and your work focused on all these 58 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 1: all these buzzwords that we just mentioned. So tell us 59 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,639 Speaker 1: about your work and why is it important to focus 60 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: on the language, Uh, focus on these words? Right. So 61 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 1: I'm a historian of technology. My first book I just 62 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: wrote is on the history of auto regulation in the 63 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: United States. But for this project, what I've been looking 64 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 1: at is tracking word usage over time, and one surprising 65 00:03:52,640 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: fact you find is that the term technological innovation only 66 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: comes into use in about the ninth sixties, which, ironically, 67 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: if you read economists and economic historians like Robert Gordon, 68 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:12,240 Speaker 1: is about the time that really deep and meaningful technological innovation, 69 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 1: revolutionary innovation kind of came to an end in the 70 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: United States, right because we kind of hit the skids 71 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy and since then, with a couple of 72 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: brief exceptions, we have not gotten back to really deep 73 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: innovation and really meaningful economic growth immediately. So that's very 74 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: interesting and I want to talk about that. But the 75 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: first response that I think most people think is like, 76 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,400 Speaker 1: how can you say that we haven't seen much innovation 77 00:04:41,480 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 1: since the sixties and seventies. I mean, our world is 78 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: wildly different, largely thanks to information technology computers and phones 79 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,080 Speaker 1: and the Internet and all this. So this seems to 80 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,279 Speaker 1: be a contestable point right off the bat, that that 81 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,840 Speaker 1: was actually the high water mark for UH innovation as 82 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,960 Speaker 1: opposed to what many people would see is the very 83 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 1: the founding era of digital technologies and the Internet and 84 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: all these things, right, So how do you back up 85 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: that claim that that was sort of the peak? Right? 86 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:15,040 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that the argument Gordon would make 87 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: is that we see a period from about ninety four 88 00:05:18,279 --> 00:05:21,599 Speaker 1: to two thousand four where businesses are adopting email and 89 00:05:21,680 --> 00:05:25,480 Speaker 1: different internet technologies, and we see that in the economic 90 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: growth numbers, but we just don't. For all of the 91 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,840 Speaker 1: hype about innovation and disruption all these things, we actually 92 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: don't see that in our economic growth. So in the 93 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, did people suddenly start talking about technological innovation 94 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 1: or was it a gradual change or how did it 95 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: come about and why? So the way it happened was 96 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:53,599 Speaker 1: that economists, especially Robert Solo by the late nineteen fifties, 97 00:05:53,640 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: they they sort of had very good economic statistics and 98 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: they were realizing that tradition all explanations like changes in 99 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 1: capital and labor just weren't explaining the economic growth. So 100 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 1: then they hypothesized that that hidden thing was technological change. 101 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: So then amongst the economists and economic historians in the 102 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: sixties and seventies, you see in policymakers too, you see 103 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 1: more and more focus on innovation as something that we 104 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: should try to foster and encourage. So what's wrong with that? 105 00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: Because intuitively, it doesn't seem like there's anything wrong with 106 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: policies that promote science and promote the application of science 107 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:42,240 Speaker 1: to business models, um and the promotion of technologies that 108 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: will make us more efficient. So what is the downside 109 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,479 Speaker 1: to uh this rhetoric? I think there's two major downsides. 110 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: The first is that it's not clear that these policies 111 00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 1: or changes in our institutions are actually getting us that 112 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:01,040 Speaker 1: innovation right, So we can talk about it a lot, 113 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: but is it actually producing it? And the second part 114 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: is that this focus on innovation often leads us to 115 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: just ignore fundamentals like infrastructure and ordinary labor, because even 116 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: in a very innovative society, most people's labor is going 117 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 1: into things like just keeping the world going. So is 118 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: the implication here that because technological innovation sounds like a 119 00:07:29,760 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: sexier kind of topic, that that's why people tend to 120 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: focus on it more when it comes to economic growth. 121 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 1: Is that what we're saying? Yeah, I mean that's a 122 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,000 Speaker 1: big part of it. It taps into a much longer history, 123 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: which is a kind of fetish around invention. There's cults 124 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: of invention going all the way back to Edison and 125 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 1: Tesla and people like this. But since nineteen seventy or 126 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty, there really has been this kind of constant 127 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 1: focus on the sexy topic of innovation to the nicole 128 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: act of many other basic fundamental issues, even basic technological issues. 129 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: Is innovation good and should Let's say there were a 130 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: better way to achieve innovation besides talking about innovation in 131 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: your view? Is that worth pursuing? Is the issue? What 132 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: I'm trying to get at, is the issue with the 133 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:26,320 Speaker 1: language itself counterproductive? Or is there something more fundamental? Could 134 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: we achieve have higher rates of productivity and innovation by 135 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,440 Speaker 1: thinking about it in some different way? Right? I think 136 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 1: that there are smarter ways to do innovation policy, and 137 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,840 Speaker 1: I think that in general, innovation is often good. So 138 00:08:39,880 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: if we can find those ways to do those things, 139 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:45,120 Speaker 1: we should. But the second part then, is that there's 140 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,320 Speaker 1: a lot of things that we neglect when we just 141 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: focus on innovation. And why is it zero sum? So 142 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: walk us through how policy makers. You know, every state 143 00:08:56,920 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: wants to be have its own silicon valley and sort 144 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: of incubator programs for new startups, But why does that 145 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,240 Speaker 1: have to be zero sum. Why does the focus on 146 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 1: all these things necessarily detract from the labor of most people. 147 00:09:12,320 --> 00:09:16,119 Speaker 1: Would you say, maintain maintain the infrastructure, a building infrastructure? 148 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,680 Speaker 1: Why does it have to be one or the other. 149 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: Let me give you an example. So Senator uh Sam 150 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:27,679 Speaker 1: brown Back in Kansas followed traditional conservative economic thinking and 151 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: cutting taxes for the wealthy um in an attempt to 152 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: induce innovation in the state. Now, maybe we've seen some 153 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: job growth and innovation, but what he's ended up doing 154 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: is cutting the tax base, and for that reason, he's 155 00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: had to continually tip go into the transportation fund, which 156 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: means that kind of Kansas roads are falling apart. That 157 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: would be one example. Doesn't this just speak to the 158 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 1: fact that technology is often something that's about, you know, 159 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 1: a series of small discoveries and then maybe maybe you 160 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 1: hit a jackpot that's something really revolutionary in terms of technology. 161 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: I mean by pursuing technological innovation, everyone is essentially going 162 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:17,079 Speaker 1: after that jack pot, right and naturally if they don't 163 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: get the jackpot, then it might look like they've lost out. Um. 164 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: That sounds good to me. I'm not sure how that's 165 00:10:23,960 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: a counterexample to what I'm trying to say, is it 166 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: essentially if I'm you know, if I'm understanding the question, 167 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:37,440 Speaker 1: is it basically that if everyone is sort of pursuing 168 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:40,599 Speaker 1: technological innovation in its own right, and everyone wants to 169 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 1: be the next Mark Zuckerberg or the next Steve Jobs 170 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,839 Speaker 1: or the next whoever, then that guarantees that a lot 171 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 1: of people are just going to be major losers, and 172 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: a lot of people are going to have spent a 173 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: lot of money and human endeavor endeavor that gets us nowhere, right, 174 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: But one person is going to get the big payout, right, 175 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: like one person is going to invent the new Facebook. 176 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 1: That's the problem, right, That's that's part of the problem. 177 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:07,679 Speaker 1: And the other thing is I think if we look 178 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 1: at education, for instance, engineering education at the college level, 179 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 1: it often focuses on innovation. So it's making students think 180 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: to be a good person or a great person, you 181 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 1: have to be an innovator. And yet about eighty percent 182 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 1: of engineering labor just goes into maintenance and upkeep, like 183 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,520 Speaker 1: just totally ordinary stuff. And yes, to take care of 184 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: technological systems, introducing new things that introduce new efficiencies is important, 185 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:39,239 Speaker 1: we know that, but there's a more kind of fundamental 186 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 1: and basic way of thinking about things, which is caring 187 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 1: for things. And yes, new things will be a part 188 00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: of that overall process. So is this inevitable? I mean, 189 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,200 Speaker 1: in your view, this was a choice. This is a 190 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 1: value judgment that society has put on innovation, creating something 191 00:11:56,640 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: new versus maintaining something new, taking pride in keeping the 192 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: infrastructure of society, whether it's sort of physical infrastructure, technological infrastructure, 193 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: working for people. In your view, this is a value 194 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 1: choice that people have made. That's right. Yeah, I'm not 195 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: sure that they made it intentionally. I think these kind 196 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: of terms, especially very fattish terms, kind of seduce us, 197 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,920 Speaker 1: right because they seem nifty, and especially when people are 198 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: telling you that innovation is how we get all these 199 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: good things, both increases in quality of life and economic growth, 200 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: it's very natural to kind of go after that thing. 201 00:12:35,720 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: I want to take a quick word for a sponsor, 202 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,199 Speaker 1: but knowledge to work and grow your business with c 203 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: i T from transportation to healthcare to manufacturing. C i 204 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:50,400 Speaker 1: T offers commercial lending, leasing, and treasury management services for 205 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: small and middle market businesses. Learn more at c i 206 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:57,280 Speaker 1: T dot com. Put Knowledge to Work. Okay, and we're 207 00:12:57,320 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: back with Lee Vincel. He's a professor of technological history 208 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: at the Stevens Institute of Technology, and we are talking 209 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: about the innovation fetish and the counterproductivity of our obsession 210 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:16,280 Speaker 1: with words like innovation and entrepreneurship and disruption. Something that 211 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 1: I'm really interested in that I think maybe you can 212 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 1: speak to is you know, we've decided as a culture 213 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 1: and as a society that people who build a social 214 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: network and become a billionaire a few years later are 215 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: lauded to the moon. They're on the cover of magazines, 216 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 1: and everyone is told they have to hustle, and everyone 217 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: is told to go out and be the CEO of 218 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: their own their own brand. What what does that do for? Like? 219 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: Who wants to become a teacher in this culture, in 220 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: the culture that rewards sort of going out and scoring 221 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 1: big so fast. Who who would ever want to have 222 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,520 Speaker 1: like sort of like a simple profession like teaching school children? 223 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: Teaching children, Yeah, it seems wait, but it has to 224 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 1: be done. On the subway ride over here, I actually 225 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 1: saw an ad for people becoming teachers and one of 226 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: the taglines was that you could encourage children to be innovators, right, 227 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: so even even to get people into teacher jobs. The 228 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:19,320 Speaker 1: only way you can do it is through innovation. I saw. 229 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 1: I also saw someone right running for the local school 230 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: board in Maplewood, New Jersey where I lives, has the 231 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 1: word their name and it says creativity and innovation. Right. 232 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: So it's like the only point of our education system 233 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: has to be innovation at this point. So what's the 234 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: solution to this problem? Because, like the obvious one, I 235 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:46,920 Speaker 1: guess is um for governments or policy makers to put 236 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: out some sort of um disincentive program and say we're 237 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: not going to talk about innovation anymore. We want to 238 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 1: quash all the innovation, which sounds like a pr nightmare, right, 239 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: And I would not do that. Yeah, So what would 240 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: you do? All? Right, there's this is kind of tough 241 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: on one level. What we're trying to do is an 242 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: engender a conversation about this stuff. And what we find 243 00:15:11,920 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: is just as innovation appeals kind of on both sides 244 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: of the aisle to both political parties, we also see 245 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 1: this maintenance discussion appeal to both political parties. So after 246 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: we had this conference at Stephen's Institute of Technology, it 247 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: got covered by the American Conservative online magazine. So I mean, 248 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: one of the things is trying to just create a 249 00:15:34,640 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: conversation about that. But my co author and I Andy 250 00:15:37,920 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 1: Russell were kind of classic progressives, right, So our answer 251 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: would be to put more funding into infrastructure, which luckily 252 00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: more and more politicians are talking about, and then also 253 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: thinking about labor policy. So how can we encourage people 254 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 1: to be teachers when teaching jobs in the United States 255 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: pay so poorly, for instance, So sort of a spend 256 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,920 Speaker 1: more on it, spend more tax people, and spend more 257 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:06,320 Speaker 1: what about What do you think that would change the 258 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: culture around these things, because I mean I agree, like, yes, 259 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 1: economics would dictate if you offer teachers more money, you'll 260 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: get more people who want to be teachers. But you still, 261 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: I feel, my gut would be that you still have 262 00:16:20,320 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: this issue of no one is celebrating teachers and that 263 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: the culture is still encouraging everyone to be a Mark 264 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg or a Steve Jobs or an Elon musk Um, 265 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: and that you still don't have like culturally, that's that's 266 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,680 Speaker 1: not a thrilling thing for people. Yeah, I mean, you know, 267 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: I can talk about like a public information campaign around maintenance, 268 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,120 Speaker 1: but I'm not gonna I'm not sure how much that 269 00:16:48,160 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: actually does. I mean, I think ultimately we have to 270 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 1: start in the organizations we work in right and recognizing 271 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 1: those people who are doing all the crucial work to 272 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 1: just keep things going around us. I wanna go back 273 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: real quickly, because once when I was watching your talk 274 00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 1: and thinking about this idea that this language around innovation 275 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:13,200 Speaker 1: kind of shot up around the time productivity started to plateau. 276 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: It's interesting thinking about going back to you know, say, 277 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: like the inventors like Edison or Tesla, or the people 278 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,880 Speaker 1: invented the uh, the steam engine. What were people talking 279 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: about back then? Were people talking about we need to 280 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:31,600 Speaker 1: encourage innovation? Like what was the culture around in those 281 00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 1: eras that got them really excited about inventing. I think 282 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,840 Speaker 1: they were excited about the technologies themselves. They are enthusiasts, 283 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: and there was new technology on the scene. It seemed 284 00:17:43,280 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: like magic, you know, I mean, the light bulb is 285 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 1: a piece of magic, and so they were enthusiasts for that. 286 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,199 Speaker 1: I don't think anyone had any sense that this was 287 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: going to necessarily lead to economic growth at that time. 288 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: That just wasn't a part of the way they're thinking. 289 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: Was there any sort of rhetoric around the cult of invention, 290 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: Like when did that spring up? Yeah? So that you 291 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 1: know it, it develops throughout the twentie centuries. By the 292 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 1: twenties and thirties, corporations are creating things like the House 293 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,080 Speaker 1: of Magic that was g e and so you you 294 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: started to see more and more encouragement of getting young 295 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: people to think about technology and engineering. And then of 296 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,840 Speaker 1: course in the fifties, you know, this starts stuff starts 297 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: to be tied really connect closely with the Cold War 298 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: and like beating the Russians and things like that. I mean, 299 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 1: part of what I deal with in my written work 300 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:37,960 Speaker 1: is how in the United States innovation is often tied 301 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 1: to fear of other people. Right, So, and you know, 302 00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: we can think of the Cold War and science and 303 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: technology and the Russians. But then in the eighties, innovation 304 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,919 Speaker 1: is really focused on the Japanese as a threat and 305 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 1: as an economic threat, and of course by the nineties 306 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: and two thousands then that switches to the Chinese and 307 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: it's all about the United States place in the global 308 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: economic system. So despite Silicon Valleys a sort of rhetoric 309 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:09,919 Speaker 1: about technology bringing everyone together, there's actually deep rooted relationship 310 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: to fear of others that's quite ironic. So I have 311 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 1: a maybe it's a stupid question, but if we think 312 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,119 Speaker 1: that part of this problem has to do with the 313 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: language itself and the use of terms like disruption and innovation, 314 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:32,120 Speaker 1: could we solve the problem by just using other words 315 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: like instead of technological innovation, could we say something more boring, 316 00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 1: like I don't know, mechanical advancement. Could we call like 317 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: Mark Zuckerberg the the I T guy that like got 318 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: lucky with that work. I mean that would work for me, Yeah, 319 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: I know it would work for others. Um, I mean, 320 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: you know, think about disruption. So people are still using 321 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: the word disruption a lot, and yet social scientists over 322 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,440 Speaker 1: the last couple of years have really undermined Clayton Christensen's 323 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:04,920 Speaker 1: notion of disruption and show that it happens far less 324 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: frequently than he assumed, and that it's far less important 325 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 1: for the overall economy than he said. And that's not 326 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: leaking into the broader community of users, right. I've noticed 327 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:20,440 Speaker 1: that with them things like disruption and stuff like that, 328 00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: and the disruptive innovation, that the theory that that's important 329 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 1: they seems to be kind of unfalsifiable because every time 330 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,560 Speaker 1: there's some counterexample, you're like, oh no, you don't really 331 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: get the theory that actually like And so it's sort 332 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: of hard to pin down what that really means. But 333 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: if you use his term, I think he had like 334 00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 1: ninety cases that he thought were case of disruption innovation. 335 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 1: When economists re analyze that data, they found that only 336 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: like seven cases of his ninety cases actually fit. What 337 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: is it? What is his definition and why does why 338 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 1: do most examples failed to achieve it? I'm not sure 339 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: in that study what definition they were working with, right, 340 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that classic definition of is the 341 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: introduction of a new process or technology that undermines a 342 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,520 Speaker 1: traditional industry. One thing I saw a stat last night. 343 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: I think it was just on Twitter, And so this 344 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: is like the worst kind of like journalism or punditry, 345 00:21:16,280 --> 00:21:18,720 Speaker 1: because I'm just mindlessly repeating something I saw it better. 346 00:21:19,280 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: But that something like the percentage of output in the 347 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: US economy that's done by like the top ten companies 348 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 1: is significantly bigger than it was ten or twenty years ago, 349 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: which sort of undermines this idea that technology is creating 350 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: this world. Really, incumbents are always collapsing in fact, you 351 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,880 Speaker 1: look at the economic landscape and it seems to be 352 00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:49,719 Speaker 1: dominated by incumbents that are harder and harder to remove 353 00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: from their perch or even look at something like a 354 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 1: lot of people have talked about this that if you 355 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: look at say the app store on your iPhone, the 356 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: top twenty five apps, almost everyone is either from Facebook, 357 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: Google or Amazon. There's actually and most the apps have 358 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 1: like one download or zero down right, and there's actually 359 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: very little churn of who's who's leading at the very top. Well, 360 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,720 Speaker 1: I mean, I think that this part of what we're 361 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 1: trying to do with our Maintainers project. We're having the 362 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: second conference in April at Stevens, because we're just trying 363 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: to find more realistic and grounded ways of thinking about 364 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 1: the economy and technology. Right, So the kind of factoid 365 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 1: you just threw out there is exactly the kind of 366 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,600 Speaker 1: thing we would point to and say, look at where 367 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 1: rhetoric is pushing us and thinking about the economy, and 368 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: then look at how the things are actually playing out 369 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 1: on the ground. So, in a sort of conclusion, what 370 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,159 Speaker 1: do you let's talk about some goals. I mean, you 371 00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: mentioned that like exploring the gap between our rhetoric and 372 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 1: what's actually happening. But what are a few things that 373 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:58,320 Speaker 1: you'd like everyone to be thinking about and uh going 374 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: forward with this discussion because I think, ink, you know, 375 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,000 Speaker 1: this is so novel, this idea to question the cult 376 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,159 Speaker 1: of this that at this point you just want to 377 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: have the discussion about it. But what are some big 378 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 1: things that you'd really like people to be thinking about 379 00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: specifically to reground the discussion in a more in a 380 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: productive way. I mean, so right, I mean, I think 381 00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: the goal is to get people to think about what 382 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,800 Speaker 1: technology is and what what it's doing in their lives. 383 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,919 Speaker 1: So most of the technologies around us are very old, 384 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: you know. We can think of like box fans, which 385 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 1: have been around for a century and haven't changed. I 386 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: assembled a fan, uh the other day, and I was 387 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,600 Speaker 1: pretty proud of myself because I'm not much of an assembler. 388 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: But I actually say so, I just want I just 389 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,880 Speaker 1: want to get that in there for the record. So 390 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:46,040 Speaker 1: I think it's about thinking thinking about technology in a 391 00:23:46,080 --> 00:23:48,800 Speaker 1: grounded way, remember reminding ourselves what it is, and then 392 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: reminding ourselves that what most people do in our society 393 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: is just keep this world going, feeding ourselves, feeding each other, 394 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: making sure things don't fall down on us. And yes, 395 00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: innovation is important for the technological world around us, but 396 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: it doesn't play as big of a role as kind 397 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: of hypemongers want us to believe. Well, leave Insel, Professor 398 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 1: at the Steven's Institute of Technology. Thank you very much 399 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: for coming in. Thank you for having me forward to 400 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,600 Speaker 1: your conferences coming up next spring. Yeah, that's right. What's 401 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,119 Speaker 1: it called the maintainers too? Great? Well, we'll check it 402 00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: out and um maybe we'll maybe I'll come down for it. 403 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: That sounds to send someone down and uh again, thank 404 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 1: you very much for coming in. Thank you very much 405 00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: for having me. Uh so, Tracy, do you think I 406 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: totally abused my position by having one of my just 407 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 1: bringing one of my old middle school friends in. Yeah. Nepotism. 408 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: Nepotism right here. No, that that was totally interesting and 409 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 1: well worth a discussion and very as you said, very 410 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 1: very counterintuitive to the way that most people think about technology. Um, 411 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,520 Speaker 1: but I expect it it might not be forever. Right. 412 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: You are seeing more people talking about the potential negative 413 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: effects of rapid technological change. Um, it's impact on productivity 414 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, and also deflation. So who knows maybe 415 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: more people will come around to this view in the future. Yeah. 416 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,639 Speaker 1: And one thing that you said, you said it's not intuitive, 417 00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,439 Speaker 1: and I agree. But you think back to even the 418 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 1: people that we celebrate in sort of the era of innovation, 419 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 1: like after the sixties when we first started talking about it. 420 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know exactly what was in Mark 421 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,679 Speaker 1: Zuckerberg's head when he founded Facebook, but I doubt it 422 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: was him saying, oh, I want to be an innovator 423 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: and I want to be uh, I want to innovate. 424 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:47,720 Speaker 1: It was like, oh, I want to create this cool 425 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:52,320 Speaker 1: thing to uh, you know, meet people at my college 426 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 1: or uh, meet girls. I think it was specifically where 427 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:01,400 Speaker 1: Steve Jobs wanted to simplified a phone whatever it is. 428 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: It does. None of these people that we revere as 429 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 1: great innovators probably were really excited about innovation itself as 430 00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: a end. It was they were excited about some project 431 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: they were working on, and they were not the product 432 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,679 Speaker 1: of you know, I want to I want to be 433 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 1: an innovator. I totally agree with that, But do you think, like, 434 00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: were they excited about being maintainers like to use these 435 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,960 Speaker 1: were Like, I don't think that was it either. I 436 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 1: think we have to find culturally maybe a middle ground 437 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,560 Speaker 1: between innovation and maintenance. No, I think that's right. They 438 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,800 Speaker 1: none of those folks seem like they wanted to be maintainers. 439 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:44,120 Speaker 1: But it would be nice, as you say, if there 440 00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:46,080 Speaker 1: if we could have a world for both where we 441 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 1: obviously we celebrate the people who make inventions that change 442 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: our lives and the sort of the energy that that takes, 443 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: while also recognizing that most of the good things we 444 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: have in life are the product of people were entirelessly 445 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: to maintain our systems in in functional order. I like that. 446 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 1: That's well said. I mean I will just one last 447 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,119 Speaker 1: thing I will say the next time, next time we 448 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,399 Speaker 1: get a press release that contains both the words innovation 449 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,880 Speaker 1: and disruption, I'm going to email a link to this podcast. Well. 450 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,199 Speaker 1: On that note, this has been another edition of the 451 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:24,560 Speaker 1: Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me 452 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 1: on Twitter at The Stalwart. I'm Tracy Alloway. I'm on 453 00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: Twitter at Tracy Alloway. You can follow thee at sts 454 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: Underscore News. Thanks for listening. But knowledge to work and 455 00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: grow your business with c i T. From transportation to 456 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: healthcare to manufacturing. C i T offers commercial lending, leasing, 457 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,359 Speaker 1: and treasury management services for small and middle market businesses. 458 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: Learn more at c I T dot com Put knowledge 459 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:57,680 Speaker 1: to work.