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Speaker 1: Call zone media.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everybody.

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Speaker 3: Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let you know

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Speaker 3: this is a compilation episode. So every episode of the

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Speaker 3: week that just happened is here in one convenient and

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Speaker 3: with somewhat less ads package for you to listen to

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Speaker 3: in a long stretch if you want. If you've been

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Speaker 3: listening to the episodes every day this week, there's going

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Speaker 3: to be nothing new here for you, but you can

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Speaker 3: make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: We live now in a world defined by the near

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Speaker 2: total victory of the capitalist class. Their wildest fantasies are

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Speaker 2: inflicted upon us all. They burn the earth we live

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Speaker 2: on and poison the air we breathe to create their

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Speaker 2: hideous mechanical god. While the human personification of the housing

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Speaker 2: bubble orders wars and ethnic cleansings from his garish golden palace.

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Speaker 2: An age in which the words the genocide cannot unreasonably

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Speaker 2: be answered with the question which one demands an explanation.

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Speaker 2: And here I have a partial one. The capitalists, the bourgeoisie,

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Speaker 2: the people who make their money by owning things and

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Speaker 2: stealing the labor of those who work for them have

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Speaker 2: been allowed to rule the world. To ask how this

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Speaker 2: came to be is to ask another question. How did

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Speaker 2: the greatest enemy of the international workers' movement come to

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Speaker 2: be so totally destroyed? This is It Could Happen Here.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Mio Wong, and that, today, is our task.

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Speaker 2: To chart, at least in part, the decline and fall

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Speaker 2: of the international workers' movement. It is easy to forget

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Speaker 2: that the workers' movement once seemed to be the inevitable

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Speaker 2: protagonists of history. As the anthropologist David Graeber remarks, the

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Speaker 2: ruling class in Chicago in the late 1800s were so

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Speaker 2: sure of the coming revolution, they built their mansions on

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Speaker 2: a road to the nearest military base. That revolution, obviously,

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Speaker 2: never came. So what, precisely, went so wrong? To answer

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Speaker 2: this question, We follow the unraveling of two threads that

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Speaker 2: together wove the fabric of the workers' movement. The first

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Speaker 2: thread is that of assembly. Before anything could be accomplished,

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Speaker 2: it was necessary to create the image of, and then

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Speaker 2: the organized reality of, the collective worker. It was necessary

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Speaker 2: to assemble the movement, to gather the working class together

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Speaker 2: from among its thousand nations and thousand tongues, and forge

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Speaker 2: an identity and then a movement that could change the

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Speaker 2: state of things. This alone was a Herculean task. As

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Speaker 2: the journal Endnotes points out, class was perhaps the least

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Speaker 2: immediate form of collective identification. Sure, class could be argued

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Speaker 2: to exist on an objective sociological level, defined by one's

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Speaker 2: relationship to the means of production. But it does not

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Speaker 2: cause people... to speak the same language. In this way,

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Speaker 2: it was easier to adopt other identities, nationality, race, gender,

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Speaker 2: even more localized ethnic backgrounds, than it was to believe

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Speaker 2: oneself to be part of a single united working class.

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Speaker 2: And so this became a great task of the workers' movement,

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Speaker 2: to create an identity capable of displacing or at least joining,

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Speaker 2: other forms of identification, which would then allow collective action.

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Speaker 2: But once this identity existed, the movement still had to act.

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Speaker 2: And here arose the second problem. What was the workers'

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Speaker 2: movement to do once it actually assembled? And this is

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Speaker 2: no simple question. It is, in fact, one of the

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Speaker 2: questions by which the movement came to be divided against itself.

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Speaker 2: And once that division happened, it became easier to attack

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Speaker 2: the material basis of the formation of the movement itself,

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Speaker 2: to destroy the conditions that made the first phase of

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Speaker 2: assembling the collective worker possible. And that is how they

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Speaker 2: did it, how the ruling class maintained its power even

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Speaker 2: with vast swaths of the world nominally arrayed against them.

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Speaker 2: They first helped the workers' movement divide itself and began

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Speaker 2: to exterminate each other, And then, in the world that

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Speaker 2: conflict created, they, and the process and unfolding of capitalist

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Speaker 2: history itself, began to unravel the movement at its core,

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Speaker 2: to destroy its ability to form the collective identity necessary

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Speaker 2: to even make those mistakes in the first place. So

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Speaker 2: let us begin then, perhaps counterintuitively, with action, for it

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Speaker 2: was here that the workers' movement first began to unravel.

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Speaker 2: This unraveling began, perhaps paradoxically, in what seemed to be

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Speaker 2: the moment of their great triumph. By the end of

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Speaker 2: the 1800s, the movement had, in certain places, accomplished the

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Speaker 2: seemingly impossible. They had, in fact, managed to assemble, in

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Speaker 2: various forms, a great collective worker. It was an age

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Speaker 2: of confidence, full of the certainty of inevitable, historically ordained victory.

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Speaker 2: of a sense that history inexorably unfolded towards the victory

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Speaker 2: of the working class. Even in the wake of its

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Speaker 2: defeat in the crushing of the Paris Commune, it had

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Speaker 2: assembled veritable states within a state in places like Germany,

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Speaker 2: with the great social democratic parties and emerging unions, built

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Speaker 2: a massive network of cooperative mutual aid. These institutions seemed

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Speaker 2: to be the shell of the new world being birthed

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Speaker 2: in the ashes of the old. And that world seemed

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Speaker 2: to hold great promise. It was a world in which

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Speaker 2: workers administered the schools and daycares and welfare programs themselves,

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Speaker 2: in which they made decisions collectively and democratically. But the

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Speaker 2: movement quickly faced a series of questions of what fundamentally

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Speaker 2: it was going to be. That question Who should actually

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Speaker 2: control the means of production? And moreover, what does control

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Speaker 2: actually mean would haunt the movement for its entire history?

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Speaker 2: This question, as we have somewhat already stated, was really

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Speaker 2: two questions. The first, who should legally and socially own

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Speaker 2: the means of production? Which is to say the tools,

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Speaker 2: the factories, everything used to produce things. And thus, who

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Speaker 2: should be able to divide the results of that production?

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Speaker 2: Should the capitalist own the factories and divide its proceeds

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Speaker 2: how he sees fit? Should the state own the factory

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Speaker 2: and do likewise? Should the workers own the factory directly?

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Speaker 2: Should ownership itself be abolished? This is the classical form

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Speaker 2: of what was known in the 1800s as the social question.

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Speaker 2: It is the conflict that is passed down through the

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Speaker 2: generations as the great conflict between capitalism and socialism. The

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Speaker 2: question of who would own the means of production. But

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Speaker 2: there was always another conflict lurking just beneath the surface.

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Speaker 2: How would production actually be organized? Who was making the

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Speaker 2: decisions about how a paper mill is run? Are those

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Speaker 2: decisions made by a boss? or realistically a series of bosses,

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Speaker 2: but we are operating here in a series of abstractions.

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Speaker 2: Is it a boss who answers to the capitalist owner

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Speaker 2: of the company? Is it a different boss who answers

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Speaker 2: to the state? Would workers make decisions collectively? And if so, how?

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Speaker 2: Would they elect their own bosses? Would they vote on

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Speaker 2: their decisions together? Would they begin to form consensus about

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Speaker 2: what should be done and how? This question is significantly

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Speaker 2: less explored, but is perhaps just as crucial as the first.

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Speaker 2: It is not hard to tell why this question is ignored.

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Speaker 2: Liberal democratic capitalists, fascists, social democrats, and Bolsheviks alike would

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Speaker 2: come to the same conclusion. One man rule in the factory.

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Speaker 2: The boss tells you what to do, and you shut

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Speaker 2: up and listen. This was no mere rhetoric. The social

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Speaker 2: democratic parties went to war with their own bases, ripping

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Speaker 2: decision-making power on the Schottflur itself away from their unions,

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Speaker 2: and attempting to de-skill those workers, giving that power to

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Speaker 2: managers in the name of efficiency and better building a

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Speaker 2: collective worker. Endnotes has an account of the German Metalworkers

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Speaker 2: Union doing this precisely to their own metalworkers. but it

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Speaker 2: was a broad and general process. The Bolsheviks, who had

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Speaker 2: once come to power under the slogan, and I cannot

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Speaker 2: emphasize this enough, quote, all power to the Soviets, that

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Speaker 2: is to say, all power to the workers' councils, would,

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Speaker 2: one year after their reformation, be singing a rather different tune. Here,

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Speaker 2: as I have quoted before in this show, is one

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Speaker 2: with Vladimir Lenin, writing in Pravda a few months after

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Speaker 2: the October Revolution, in a piece called The Immediate Tasks

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Speaker 2: of the Soviet Government. Quote, Unquestioning submission to a single

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Speaker 2: will is absolutely necessary for the success of labor processes

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Speaker 2: that are based on large-scale machine industry. Today, the revolution

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Speaker 2: demands in the interest of socialism that the masses unquestioningly

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Speaker 2: obey the single will of the leaders of the labor process.

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Speaker 2: Quote-unquote Soviet rule in the factories, then, would be the

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Speaker 2: same as capitalist, fascist, or social democratic rule. It would

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Speaker 2: be unquestioning submission to a single will of the leaders

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Speaker 2: of the labor process. Thus, the nominally socialist state itself

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Speaker 2: would come to be comprised of a nightmare combination of forwardism, dictatorship,

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Speaker 2: and bureaucracy. These decisions in the shop floor had social

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Speaker 2: consequences as well. Bureaucracy and dictatorship would characterize all aspects

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Speaker 2: of life in such societies. The welfare state, whether implemented

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Speaker 2: by the Soviets or the Social Democrats, would be carried

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Speaker 2: out not by the democratic organization of workers, but by

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Speaker 2: the centralized bureaucratic state. The bureaucratic welfare state, as the

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Speaker 2: anthropologist David Graeber points out in his book The Utopia

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Speaker 2: of Rules, was perhaps first implemented by arch-conservative Otto von

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Speaker 2: Bismarck as a very explicit way to buy off the

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Speaker 2: working class. Bismarck himself said of his efforts, quote, My

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Speaker 2: idea was to bribe the working class, or shall I say,

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Speaker 2: to win them over, to regard the state as a

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Speaker 2: social institution existing for their sake and interested in their welfare.

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Speaker 2: This bureaucracy, the state that Bismarck produced in order to

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Speaker 2: crush the workers' movement, increasingly became synonymous with socialism itself.

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Speaker 2: Marx had infamously foretold, that it would be the bourgeoisie

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Speaker 2: who produced their own gravediggers. In reality, it was the workers'

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Speaker 2: movement that worked tirelessly to produce their own destruction. The

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Speaker 2: war of one-man rule in the factory, the clash between

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Speaker 2: democracy and dictatorship on the shop floor, would become a

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Speaker 2: key element of destroying the identity of the class itself.

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Speaker 2: And it is to this identity that we need now turn.

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Speaker 2: What is a worker? What was the workers' movement itself? This,

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Speaker 2: after the break. So let us now turn to the

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Speaker 2: mythical collective worker. This was the workers' movement's interpretation of

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Speaker 2: what Marx described as the class for itself. For Marx,

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Speaker 2: the class existed, so to speak, in two forms. In itself,

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Speaker 2: which is to say that there were, objectively in the world,

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Speaker 2: a class of people whose survival was dependent on selling

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Speaker 2: their own labor. That was the class in itself. But

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Speaker 2: to become the class for itself, that class would have

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Speaker 2: to realize this. It would have to create an identity.

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Speaker 2: Although Marx would never have put it in this terms,

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Speaker 2: as Endnooth points out, It would have to create a

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Speaker 2: class that was capable of recognizing that it was, in fact,

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Speaker 2: a class, and then begin to act in its own interests, which,

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Speaker 2: for Marx, although increasingly not for his successors, was to

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Speaker 2: abolish the class system itself. But what did this identity,

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Speaker 2: once it came to be forged, actually look like? From

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Speaker 2: the journal I'd notes, quote, Supporting workers' claims to respectability

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Speaker 2: was a vision of their destiny, with five tenets. 1.

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Speaker 2: Workers were building a new world with their own hands. 2.

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Speaker 2: In this new world, workers were the only social group

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Speaker 2: that was expanding, whereas all other groups were contracting, including

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Speaker 2: the bourgeoisie. 3. Workers were not only becoming the majority

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Speaker 2: of the population, they were also becoming a compact mass.

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Speaker 2: The collective worker, who was being drilled in the factory

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Speaker 2: to act in concert with the machines. 4. They were

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Speaker 2: thus the only group capable of managing the new world

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Speaker 2: in accordance with its innermost logic. Neither a hierarchy of

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Speaker 2: order-givers and order-takers, nor the irrationality of market fluctuations, but

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Speaker 2: rather an even more finely-grained division of labor. 5. Workers

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Speaker 2: were proving this vision to be true, since the class

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Speaker 2: was realizing— what it was in a conquest of power,

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Speaker 2: the achievement of which would make it possible to abolish

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Speaker 2: class society and thus bring man's prehistory to a close.

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Speaker 2: These beliefs were at the core of the new identity

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Speaker 2: of the collective worker, a worker being forged every day

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Speaker 2: in the factories, drilled to work together by their constant

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Speaker 2: labor on the assembly line. They were the builders of

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Speaker 2: the new world, and they were its inheritors. But this identity,

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Speaker 2: and the beliefs underlying it, just as all others, had

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Speaker 2: to be constructed, and it had to be assiduously maintained.

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Speaker 2: If the underlying assumptions beneath it proved to be untrue

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Speaker 2: or were challenged by other revelations, everything would begin to

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Speaker 2: fall apart. and even during its opening phases during the

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Speaker 2: nominal triumph of the movement. That identity was already being undermined.

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Speaker 2: From Endnotes again, quote, Socialists and communists did not see

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Speaker 2: that it was only insofar as workers had a hand

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Speaker 2: in determining how production took place that they were able

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Speaker 2: to identify with their work as what defined who they

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Speaker 2: really were. Once that right and its corresponding experience disappeared,

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Speaker 2: so did the workers' identity. Here, we see two crucial

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Speaker 2: elements of this identity threatened simultaneously. Workers in a workplace

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Speaker 2: need to be able to control and make decisions in

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Speaker 2: their workplace. And secondly, on an even more basic level,

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Speaker 2: there had to be large-scale workplaces to begin with. The workers' movement,

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Speaker 2: although with the assistance of the capitalists, was, by the

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Speaker 2: midpoint of the 20th century, well on their way towards

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Speaker 2: extinguishing the ability of workers to have control over their workplaces.

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Speaker 2: And the capitalist class had its sights on the second element,

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Speaker 2: there being a large-scale collective workplace at all. And yet,

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Speaker 2: the identity of the collective worker faced other problems. There were,

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Speaker 2: in fact, other identities. And these identities, in some cases,

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Speaker 2: proved to be more real than that of the collective worker.

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Speaker 2: As Endnotes and eventually even the most assiduous Marxists were

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Speaker 2: forced to acknowledge, the collective worker, though it should not

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Speaker 2: inherently have been, came to be a quote-unquote respectable man.

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Speaker 2: And that he was a man, despite the attempts, both

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Speaker 2: nominal and real, of the workers' movement to fight for

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Speaker 2: the rights of women and the rights of people of

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Speaker 2: other genders, stood until the workers' movement's death. This, obviously,

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Speaker 2: is a problem. I need not mention, obviously, what percentage

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Speaker 2: of the population is not, in fact, male. But there

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Speaker 2: is another crisis here, one which the workers' movement would

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Speaker 2: fail to engage in, or rather, its attempts to engage

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Speaker 2: here were insufficient to the necessary task. Now, in the

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Speaker 2: old Marxist schema, there was production, the production of things.

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Speaker 2: Under the capitalist context, the production of commodities to be

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Speaker 2: sold on the market. But there was also reproduction, social reproduction.

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Speaker 2: This was was another form of labor in which workers

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Speaker 2: are produced and maintained in extremely literal senses of the term.

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Speaker 2: We are speaking here of having and raising children, of

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Speaker 2: making food and washing clothes, of cleaning and doing dishes,

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Speaker 2: of the forms of labor that create and sustain life.

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Speaker 2: And we are speaking of forms of labor that the

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Speaker 2: male collective worker broadly describes to be somewhat crude, did

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Speaker 2: not give a shit about. It was able to not

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Speaker 2: give a shit about it because it could assume that

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Speaker 2: that labor would be done by someone else, by classes

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Speaker 2: and genders of people who were excluded from the collective worker,

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Speaker 2: or in into it only selectively. For there are, to

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Speaker 2: take the name of a movement, no wages for housework.

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Speaker 2: This form of production, this form of labor, this social

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Speaker 2: reproduction that makes life and the world possible, that is

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Speaker 2: as much a core of the production and reproduction of capital,

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Speaker 2: as the production of commodities itself, was never remunerated as such.

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Speaker 2: This was as true in socialist period China, where women

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Speaker 2: were not given work points for the domestic labor they

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Speaker 2: did at home, as it was in the capitalist United States,

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Speaker 2: where women were likewise not paid for the domestic labor

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Speaker 2: that they did at home. These tasks were primarily done,

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Speaker 2: of course, by women. And this was a sphere into

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Speaker 2: which the capitalists would make a series of attacks by

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Speaker 2: relying on the inattention and ability to divide the class

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Speaker 2: that were twin characteristics of the sphere of domestic reproduction.

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Speaker 2: When neoliberalism came, it came with Reagan-era anti-feminism and homophobia.

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Speaker 2: It came with the one-child policy in China. It came,

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Speaker 2: in other words... with massive expansions of the control of

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Speaker 2: the bourgeoisie into the process of domestic reproduction. And there

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Speaker 2: were other problems, of course. The process of domestic reproduction

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Speaker 2: does not produce, for capital, an unmarked worker. What do

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Speaker 2: I mean by unmarked? To take a non-specific example, I, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: do not simply get to be a worker. I am

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Speaker 2: a An Asian trans woman with all of the associated

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Speaker 2: violences that those identities imply in a world such as this.

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Speaker 2: And this too was a work of production. Just as

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Speaker 2: the workers' movement had to assiduously maintain its identity as

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Speaker 2: the worker, so other sectors assiduously worked to produce women

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Speaker 2: through constant disciplining violence. the totality of the social processes

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Speaker 2: at play, were also busy producing race, even being allowed

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Speaker 2: to access the proletariat itself, being able to reach the

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Speaker 2: status of an exploited wage laborer and not a debt peon,

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Speaker 2: a sharecropper, or a slave, or someone simply exterminated altogether.

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Speaker 2: This was the process of the production of race. It

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Speaker 2: too complicated the simple collective worker, for even joining the

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Speaker 2: exploited working class itself became a privilege. The suffering of

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Speaker 2: the mere white proletarian was freedom to someone who had

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Speaker 2: been enslaved. And in these distinctions, in these gradations of violence,

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Speaker 2: in the structural and systemic racism of societies across the world, here,

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Speaker 2: The constituent elements of the collective worker had other interests.

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Speaker 2: White workers in the US, instead of attempting to abolish

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Speaker 2: their class, could reap material rewards by working with their

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Speaker 2: employers to maintain segregation. So too could workers reap the

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Speaker 2: rewards of nationalism. For there were, at least to some extent,

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Speaker 2: real benefits to be found in imperialism and settler colonialism. Indeed,

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Speaker 2: many working class theorists in the 1800s in the US,

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Speaker 2: a time in which the contradictions between class and settler

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Speaker 2: identity were perhaps at their most stark, believed that the

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Speaker 2: class problems of Europe could be solved in America by

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Speaker 2: simply continuing to steal land from indigenous people and giving

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Speaker 2: it to workers. This violence would be replicated by the

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Speaker 2: socialist states of various stripes. from the Indonesian conquest of

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Speaker 2: West Papua under Sukarno, to the settler colonial occupations of

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Speaker 2: Tibet and Xinjiang, to, and I did once attempt to

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Speaker 2: write a list of all of these and simply could

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Speaker 2: not list all of them, the participation of socialist parties

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Speaker 2: and their unions in effectively every act of colonialism that

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Speaker 2: Europe has ever done. There were good factory jobs in

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Speaker 2: building the bombs that fell over Vietnam. replete with union

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Speaker 2: benefits and healthcare. Just as the social democratic parties of

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Speaker 2: the 1910s had succumbed to nationalism and backed their respective

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Speaker 2: countries in slaughtering each other in World War I, so

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Speaker 2: too would workers back their nations in a path of

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Speaker 2: untrammeled butchery leading right to Bosnia. The workers of the

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Speaker 2: world were slaughtering each other. And yet another question would

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Speaker 2: come to haunt the movement. Would these workers even remain workers?

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Speaker 2: It began, as we have discussed ad nauseum, to distribute

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Speaker 2: production across massive supply lines, using massive containerized ships to

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Speaker 2: produce parts in one country and ship those parts to another,

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Speaker 2: pitting workers of every country against each other. in a

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Speaker 2: fight for a rapidly decreasing number of jobs. The great

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Speaker 2: urban factories that had been at the core of the

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Speaker 2: formation of the workers' movement's identity and ability to reproduce

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Speaker 2: itself were likewise replaced by smaller, decentralized rural factories built

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Speaker 2: further from each other to make it more and more

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Speaker 2: difficult for any kind of collective identity to emerge. Worse still,

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Speaker 2: the shift to massive supply chains was accompanied by the

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Speaker 2: transformation of large parts of the working class into contractors

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Speaker 2: or small business owners, lodged in various positions up and

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Speaker 2: down the supply chain. The supply chain would still be

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Speaker 2: controlled by massive corporations, but crucially, it would no longer

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Speaker 2: own the various stages. Instead, portions of what were once

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Speaker 2: workers would become the nominal owners tiny shops that made

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Speaker 2: one part of a process that would eventually become a

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Speaker 2: larger product. Every step meticulously and rigorously controlled by a corporation,

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Speaker 2: but not owned by them. In this way, Nike, as

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Speaker 2: Anna Singh points out in her famous work, Supply Chains

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Speaker 2: and the Human Condition, does not really actually produce shoes.

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Speaker 2: It simply buys them by setting up a massive production

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Speaker 2: process across a sprawling supply chain, each of which is

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Speaker 2: run by nominally independent companies that are forced to act

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Speaker 2: as contractors. This is offered up as freedom, as encouragement

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Speaker 2: of workers to abandon their identity as a collective worker

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Speaker 2: and become business owners themselves. This shift would have a

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Speaker 2: massive impact on both the ability of the worker to

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Speaker 2: form a collective identity, and also on the possibility of

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Speaker 2: struggle itself. For this shift would displace the site of

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Speaker 2: struggle from shop floors owned directly by corporations themselves to

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Speaker 2: shop floors owned by petty producers who would once simply

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Speaker 2: have been workers, thus neatly dividing the working class against itself,

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Speaker 2: while denying these new nominal small business owners the capital

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Speaker 2: necessary to even accede to the demands of their workers themselves.

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Speaker 2: The old class basis of social democracy and the core

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Speaker 2: of the old workers' movement was thus shattered in a

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Speaker 2: single stroke. The combination of the freedom of movement of

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Speaker 2: capital and the unfreedom of movement of labor, as we

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Speaker 2: have seen so horrifically in the deportation ethnic cleansing sweeping

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Speaker 2: the United States, alongside the class-shattering effects of supply chain

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Speaker 2: management and the transformation of the working class. into managers themselves,

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Speaker 2: fundamentally shifted the terrain of global class struggle. They would

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Speaker 2: in time become the emergence of the service economy. They

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Speaker 2: would herald the collapse of the industrial proletariat, the mass

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Speaker 2: expulsion of workers from the labor process altogether. In a word,

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Speaker 2: the conditions of modernity. But the effect was the same.

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Speaker 2: Where once at least some workers were able to claim

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Speaker 2: their part of the identity of the collective worker. Now,

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Speaker 2: we face the near total atomization of most of the

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Speaker 2: world's population. And yet, for all of the bourgeoisie's power,

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Speaker 2: for all that it appeared that their victory was final,

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Speaker 2: that history was over, and that liberal democratic capitalism had

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Speaker 2: triumphed over the world forever, on the very day that

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Speaker 2: NAFTA The crowning achievement. of the bourgeoisie in North America,

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Speaker 2: came into effect, something else happened. For to misquote a

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Speaker 2: Langston Hughes poem, in the 1990s, it was not Lenin

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Speaker 2: who walked across the world. It was Zapata. And so,

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Speaker 2: to borrow the words of the great poet, Zapata walked

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Speaker 2: around the world. Black, brown, and white receive him. Language

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Speaker 2: is no barrier. The strangest tongues believe him. Zapata walks

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Speaker 2: around the world. The sun sets like a scar between

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Speaker 2: the darkness and the dawn. There rises a red star.

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Speaker 2: This is Ikarapanheep.

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Speaker 4: At the moment, there's a great deal of discussion about

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Speaker 4: alternative currencies, specifically cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin and Ethereum. But there

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Speaker 4: is another form of alternative currency, one that is largely overlooked.

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Speaker 4: I'm talking about local currencies, money that's created and distributed

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Speaker 4: by a local community. Back in the 19th century, banks

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Speaker 4: in America often printed their own currency backed by gold

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Speaker 4: and silver, and the U.S. Treasury was not involved. The

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Speaker 4: practice started back in pre-revolutionary times when the British did

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Speaker 4: not mint enough silver and copper coins for the colonies.

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00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:12,900
Speaker 4: To keep the local economies going, banks printed up paper

401
00:31:12,940 --> 00:31:16,130
Speaker 4: bills to be used for goods and services and to

402
00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:20,610
Speaker 4: pay back debts. After the American Revolution, in the 1800s,

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00:31:20,690 --> 00:31:23,570
Speaker 4: commercial banks in the U.S. began to issue their own

404
00:31:23,790 --> 00:31:27,260
Speaker 4: local money in exchange for gold deposits. The dollar bills

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00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: printed by the banks did not travel far since they

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00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 4: could only be redeemed at those same local banks. Trouble

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00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:37,420
Speaker 4: arose during the Civil War, when the federal government began

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Speaker 4: to print its own dollar bills. Those initial dollars, called greenbacks,

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00:31:42,260 --> 00:31:45,850
Speaker 4: became a common target for counterfeiters. And thus, in the

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Speaker 4: years just after the Civil War, it's estimated that one-third

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Speaker 4: of paper money circulating in the U.S. was counterfeit. The

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Speaker 4: chaos created by so much phony money in the U.S.

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Speaker 4: led to the creation of the Secret Service. Before they

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Speaker 4: protected the president, Secret Service agents' first order of business

415
00:32:05,550 --> 00:32:09,610
Speaker 4: was protecting the American money supply. Then came the Federal

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Speaker 4: Reserve Act of 1913. That legislation changed the whole monetary

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Speaker 4: picture when it created centralized banking in the United States.

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Speaker 4: That same act also made the U.S.

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Speaker 5: Treasury.

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00:32:21,670 --> 00:32:25,690
Speaker 4: the sole legal provider of dollar bills. With its passage,

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00:32:25,790 --> 00:32:29,270
Speaker 4: local banks stopped printing their own money. There were no

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Speaker 4: more local currencies. The question we consider today is, what

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Speaker 4: if we went back to that old model of local currencies?

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Speaker 4: It's totally possible, and it's not illegal, as long as

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00:32:41,490 --> 00:32:45,470
Speaker 4: the money you print isn't dollar bills. Most importantly, this

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00:32:45,570 --> 00:32:49,070
Speaker 4: movement is already happening. Right now, there are communities all

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00:32:49,110 --> 00:32:52,170
Speaker 4: across the country that print their own money. And this

428
00:32:52,210 --> 00:32:54,630
Speaker 4: keeps more of their money in the hands of the

429
00:32:54,710 --> 00:32:58,970
Speaker 4: citizens of that community. So, would you like to learn

430
00:32:58,990 --> 00:33:01,540
Speaker 4: how to print your own money? Not only is it

431
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,940
Speaker 4: legal to make your own money, it's surprisingly easy. And

432
00:33:04,980 --> 00:33:08,340
Speaker 4: there are multiple ways to do it. For instance, in

433
00:33:08,340 --> 00:33:11,790
Speaker 4: 1989 in Great Barrington, Massachusetts, the owner of a restaurant

434
00:33:11,810 --> 00:33:16,170
Speaker 4: called The Deli needed capital to finance a relocation. And

435
00:33:16,230 --> 00:33:20,440
Speaker 4: so he issued deli dollars. For customers who traded $ 8

436
00:33:19,980 --> 00:33:24,100
Speaker 4: of American cash, they received $ 10 deli dollars, which could

437
00:33:24,140 --> 00:33:27,900
Speaker 4: be used at the new location to buy $ 10 worth

438
00:33:27,980 --> 00:33:32,100
Speaker 4: of deli food. The deli dollars were essentially a gift certificate.

439
00:33:32,860 --> 00:33:35,510
Speaker 4: Over in Ithaca, New York, a man named Paul Glover

440
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:39,990
Speaker 4: offered local folks paper notes called hours. They were worth

441
00:33:40,070 --> 00:33:43,230
Speaker 4: the average hourly wage in their small town, which at

442
00:33:43,250 --> 00:33:46,690
Speaker 4: the time was $ 10. 00. Folks in Ithaca could trade those

443
00:33:46,730 --> 00:33:50,170
Speaker 4: paper notes for goods and services in the community. In

444
00:33:50,290 --> 00:33:53,130
Speaker 4: both cases, paper notes were printed up and the new

445
00:33:53,210 --> 00:33:56,230
Speaker 4: money had a specific value in terms of the U.S.

446
00:33:56,300 --> 00:33:56,650
Speaker 5: Dollar.

447
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:00,460
Speaker 4: You can do the same thing. Design some paper notes,

448
00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:03,660
Speaker 4: print them up. Once you make the physical cash, you

449
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:07,180
Speaker 4: invite people to exchange dollar bills for your new notes.

450
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,710
Speaker 4: And then folks can trade your new money for goods, services, debts,

451
00:34:12,170 --> 00:34:15,660
Speaker 4: all the same things that you can do with dollar bills. Now,

452
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 4: it does work better if you can get a local

453
00:34:18,140 --> 00:34:20,700
Speaker 4: bank to help out with the exchange of U.S. cash

454
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,320
Speaker 4: for your new money. If the bank is willing to

455
00:34:23,540 --> 00:34:27,020
Speaker 4: act as the exchange point for the real U.S. treasury-backed

456
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,460
Speaker 4: currency for your new money, it helps your local currency

457
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,220
Speaker 4: to earn trust in the community and for you to

458
00:34:33,390 --> 00:34:36,810
Speaker 4: handle the accounting. That's how easy it is to start

459
00:34:36,850 --> 00:34:39,470
Speaker 4: printing your own money. It feels like this should be illegal,

460
00:34:39,570 --> 00:34:42,629
Speaker 4: but again, it's totally legal to make your own dollar bills.

461
00:34:43,090 --> 00:34:46,450
Speaker 4: as long as what you print up isn't mistaken for U.S.

462
00:34:46,489 --> 00:34:46,910
Speaker 2: Dollars.

463
00:34:47,570 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 4: That's what keeps your new money from being considered counterfeit cash.

464
00:34:52,000 --> 00:34:55,500
Speaker 4: As an investigative journalist and podcast host, I've long been

465
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 4: curious about the idea of making your own money. So,

466
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,740
Speaker 4: doing what I do best, I tracked down an expert,

467
00:35:01,860 --> 00:35:04,910
Speaker 4: a person whose job it is to administer a local currency,

468
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,370
Speaker 4: and asked him everything you'd want to know about printing

469
00:35:08,390 --> 00:35:12,170
Speaker 4: your own money. The benefits, the challenges, the practical legalities.

470
00:35:12,290 --> 00:35:15,650
Speaker 4: And I asked about the financial freedom that comes from

471
00:35:15,750 --> 00:35:19,010
Speaker 4: creating a local currency. We'll get into all of that

472
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:23,020
Speaker 4: in this episode. I'm Zarin Burnett from the podcast Ridiculous

473
00:35:23,060 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 4: Crime and Very Special Episodes, and I'm the guest host

474
00:35:26,540 --> 00:35:30,239
Speaker 4: for today's episode of It Could Happen Here, How to

475
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:36,910
Speaker 4: Print Your Own Money, the Case for Local Currencies. The

476
00:35:36,969 --> 00:35:40,060
Speaker 4: idea of local currencies has always intrigued me. You see,

477
00:35:40,140 --> 00:35:43,860
Speaker 4: back in 2010, in my hometown of Davis, California, a

478
00:35:43,910 --> 00:35:47,030
Speaker 4: guy named Nick Berry created what were called Davis Dollars.

479
00:35:47,530 --> 00:35:50,590
Speaker 4: They were a local currency meant to benefit the economy

480
00:35:50,670 --> 00:35:53,770
Speaker 4: of the small college town. Berry's goal was to create

481
00:35:53,790 --> 00:35:56,649
Speaker 4: a way for the community to have greater control over

482
00:35:56,770 --> 00:35:59,609
Speaker 4: how money flowed in and out of the town's economy.

483
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,259
Speaker 4: Davis Dollars promised to keep more money in the hands

484
00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:07,580
Speaker 4: of its citizens and small business owners. The idea was well-intended.

485
00:36:08,070 --> 00:36:11,609
Speaker 4: But the adoption of the alternative paper currency was not

486
00:36:11,650 --> 00:36:13,009
Speaker 4: what you would call robust.

487
00:36:13,590 --> 00:36:16,670
Speaker 6: Yeah, it was, you know, and I won't say a

488
00:36:16,730 --> 00:36:18,830
Speaker 6: big deal. I mean, it's in the local paper a

489
00:36:18,890 --> 00:36:22,149
Speaker 6: couple of times. So it got good play. I don't

490
00:36:22,190 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 6: know if the TV stations in Sacramento did a piece

491
00:36:25,260 --> 00:36:28,060
Speaker 6: on it. They probably did do a piece or two.

492
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,859
Speaker 6: If somebody got a hold of them, they probably didn't

493
00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 6: find it on their own. But yeah, the rollout was,

494
00:36:34,060 --> 00:36:36,460
Speaker 6: you know, I think most people knew about it.

495
00:36:37,460 --> 00:36:40,990
Speaker 4: That's Bob Dunning. You could call him the voice of Davis.

496
00:36:41,450 --> 00:36:44,030
Speaker 4: For 54 years, he was a columnist for the Davis

497
00:36:44,070 --> 00:36:47,670
Speaker 4: Enterprise newspaper. As such, he reported on what all was

498
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:51,310
Speaker 4: newsworthy in our sleepy college town. And now, keeping with

499
00:36:51,350 --> 00:36:54,089
Speaker 4: the times, Dunning has his own newsletter in which he

500
00:36:54,140 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 4: continues to comment on what he's lovingly dubbed the People's

501
00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:02,060
Speaker 4: Republic of Davis. As the respected chronicler of our town, naturally,

502
00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:05,770
Speaker 4: Dunning has some thoughts about Davis Dollars. although he can't

503
00:37:05,810 --> 00:37:08,140
Speaker 4: remember ever writing about the alternative currency.

504
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 6: Not unless they paid me.

505
00:37:09,660 --> 00:37:16,260
Speaker 7: You know, I don't think I did. I may have

506
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:21,049
Speaker 7: made passing reference, like, well, I better pull out my

507
00:37:21,070 --> 00:37:25,469
Speaker 7: Davis dollars and go buy a snow cone at the

508
00:37:25,670 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 7: Little League game or something. So only in passing reference

509
00:37:30,100 --> 00:37:31,299
Speaker 7: because I like the alliteration.

510
00:37:32,690 --> 00:37:35,820
Speaker 4: When asked if he remembers ever spending one or if

511
00:37:35,860 --> 00:37:39,340
Speaker 4: he ever saw an actual Davis dollar, Dunning recalled.

512
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 6: Oh man, making a Christmas stocking. I don't think I

513
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 6: actually saw one.

514
00:37:48,780 --> 00:37:52,150
Speaker 4: While Davis dollars may have failed to capture the imagination

515
00:37:52,170 --> 00:37:55,390
Speaker 4: of the townsfolk and students of Davis, this had less

516
00:37:55,410 --> 00:37:58,190
Speaker 4: to do with the promise of a local currency and

517
00:37:58,230 --> 00:38:01,420
Speaker 4: more to do with the timing. Davis Dollars was launched

518
00:38:01,460 --> 00:38:04,380
Speaker 4: in 2010. At that same time, the world was still

519
00:38:04,530 --> 00:38:07,469
Speaker 4: mired in the economic downturn of the financial meltdown of

520
00:38:07,469 --> 00:38:12,010
Speaker 4: 2008 and 2009, which meant folks weren't looking for novel

521
00:38:12,110 --> 00:38:14,810
Speaker 4: new ways to spend money. They were looking for ways

522
00:38:14,870 --> 00:38:18,270
Speaker 4: to save the money they still had. Basically, it was

523
00:38:18,290 --> 00:38:20,730
Speaker 4: a rough time to launch a new form of money.

524
00:38:21,330 --> 00:38:21,770
Speaker 5: Absolutely.

525
00:38:21,790 --> 00:38:23,390
Speaker 6: It's the worst time to do anything.

526
00:38:24,070 --> 00:38:25,609
Speaker 2: We hear it with COVID now.

527
00:38:26,350 --> 00:38:28,090
Speaker 6: Everything changed with COVID, and it did.

528
00:38:29,440 --> 00:38:32,259
Speaker 4: Despite its poor timing, Dunning does agree that, as an

529
00:38:32,300 --> 00:38:35,620
Speaker 4: alternative currency, Davis dollars... Sounds like a good idea.

530
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:40,100
Speaker 6: Sounds like a clever idea. But so many small businesses

531
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 6: are on such a margin. So I think that hurt

532
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:49,590
Speaker 6: it a little bit. And so carrying a Davis dollar

533
00:38:49,630 --> 00:38:53,870
Speaker 6: that you could only spend in downtown Davis, you couldn't

534
00:38:53,890 --> 00:38:57,610
Speaker 6: go anyplace else with it. And even some merchants were...

535
00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,900
Speaker 6: reluctant to be part of the program, I think it

536
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 6: was ultimately doomed.

537
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 4: The failure of Davis dollars to win over the people

538
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,300
Speaker 4: is less of a critique of the potential of local

539
00:39:09,380 --> 00:39:13,799
Speaker 4: currencies and instead a real world example of the challenges

540
00:39:13,860 --> 00:39:16,460
Speaker 4: a community faces when they decide to make.

541
00:39:16,330 --> 00:39:16,910
Speaker 2: Their own money.

542
00:39:16,930 --> 00:39:20,750
Speaker 4: If you plan to launch an alternative currency, timing and

543
00:39:20,790 --> 00:39:24,290
Speaker 4: practicality are key. It needs to serve a real need.

544
00:39:24,690 --> 00:39:29,550
Speaker 4: It can't just be theoretically attractive. To investigate a far

545
00:39:29,610 --> 00:39:33,300
Speaker 4: more significant real-world example of a local currency, we spoke

546
00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:34,580
Speaker 4: with Peter LaRochelle.

547
00:39:35,380 --> 00:39:38,980
Speaker 8: So I work at the Schumacher Center. We're a non-profit

548
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:45,290
Speaker 8: think-and-do tank based out of Egremont, Massachusetts. So my primary

549
00:39:45,590 --> 00:39:49,150
Speaker 8: responsibility with the Schumacher Center is to administer our local

550
00:39:49,210 --> 00:39:50,130
Speaker 8: currency program.

551
00:39:50,830 --> 00:39:53,230
Speaker 4: To walk us through the hows and whys of printing

552
00:39:53,270 --> 00:39:56,549
Speaker 4: your own money, Peter LaRochelle is here to discuss the

553
00:39:56,590 --> 00:40:00,029
Speaker 4: vast potential and the practical realities of making your own money.

554
00:40:00,570 --> 00:40:03,069
Speaker 4: Who better to explain the value of printing your own

555
00:40:03,110 --> 00:40:06,050
Speaker 4: money than someone whose job it is to do just that?

556
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,299
Speaker 4: The local currency he administers is called.

557
00:40:09,219 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 8: Berkshires, which is an on-the-ground example of a local currency

558
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,860
Speaker 8: right here in the Berkshire region that the Schumacher Center

559
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:16,500
Speaker 8: helped found.

560
00:40:17,140 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 4: For the tourist-driven economy of the Berkshires region of western Massachusetts,

561
00:40:21,420 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 4: a local currency was a savvy way to keep more

562
00:40:24,020 --> 00:40:26,780
Speaker 4: of their economic power in the area rather than seeing

563
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,940
Speaker 4: money flow in and then quickly flow right back out.

564
00:40:30,580 --> 00:40:34,340
Speaker 4: The Berkshires program was started back in 2006, and 20

565
00:40:34,340 --> 00:40:37,509
Speaker 4: years later, it's still going strong. The credit for that

566
00:40:37,570 --> 00:40:40,690
Speaker 4: belongs to the Schumacher Center for a New Economics, which

567
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:44,530
Speaker 4: was founded by E.F. Schumacher back in 1980. The think

568
00:40:44,670 --> 00:40:48,049
Speaker 4: and do tank, as Peter LaRochelle called it, advocates for

569
00:40:48,170 --> 00:40:50,990
Speaker 4: a new form of economics. It's right there in the name.

570
00:40:51,610 --> 00:40:54,670
Speaker 4: Its founder, E.F. Schumacher, believed in something he called, quote,

571
00:40:55,050 --> 00:41:00,030
Speaker 4: an economy of permanence. According to the Schumacher Center's website, quote,

572
00:41:00,610 --> 00:41:04,010
Speaker 4: in today's global economy, national currencies have had the effect

573
00:41:04,110 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 4: of centralizing ownership of wealth, and of widening the gap

574
00:41:07,660 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 4: between rich and poor, all the while undermining local communities,

575
00:41:11,580 --> 00:41:16,950
Speaker 4: devastating indigenous peoples, and polluting the environment. Standing in opposition

576
00:41:16,989 --> 00:41:20,009
Speaker 4: to this global trend is the Schumacher Center. And a

577
00:41:20,070 --> 00:41:23,390
Speaker 4: key tool to bring more economic power and independence to

578
00:41:23,430 --> 00:41:28,990
Speaker 4: communities is a local currency. As their website argues, Decentralized

579
00:41:29,090 --> 00:41:33,230
Speaker 4: regional currencies are an important counterforce working to redistribute wealth

580
00:41:33,270 --> 00:41:37,880
Speaker 4: more broadly while supporting unique regional identities, cultures, and communities.

581
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:40,359
Speaker 4: Back to Peter LaRochelle.

582
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,300
Speaker 8: I think people want to feel like they have a

583
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,540
Speaker 8: say in the systems that dictate their lives. All of

584
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 8: the Schumacher Center's projects that they've helped found and they

585
00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:55,320
Speaker 8: support are democratic, people-based projects that are run by non-profits

586
00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,780
Speaker 8: that are members of the community that run these projects,

587
00:41:59,680 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 8: whether it's local currencies or community land trusts or any

588
00:42:03,430 --> 00:42:06,770
Speaker 8: other project. The idea of really is that people should

589
00:42:06,790 --> 00:42:08,390
Speaker 8: be able to have a say in the communities they

590
00:42:08,430 --> 00:42:08,690
Speaker 8: live in.

591
00:42:09,320 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 4: I know this may sound like some weird libertarian crypto nonsense,

592
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,260
Speaker 4: but as we'll explain, it is a totally different thing.

593
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,700
Speaker 4: And to that point, Peter LaRochelle would like to assure

594
00:42:19,820 --> 00:42:23,740
Speaker 4: you that the Schumacher Center is very much a capitalist idea.

595
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,210
Speaker 8: I think the way Berkshires is structured should reflect capitalism

596
00:42:28,310 --> 00:42:32,390
Speaker 8: at its best. We absolutely believe in for-profit enterprise capitalism.

597
00:42:32,620 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 8: private ownership of businesses. And we believe that when it's

598
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:37,460
Speaker 8: done right, that's what makes a community thrive.

599
00:42:48,730 --> 00:42:52,589
Speaker 4: What the Berkshires program seeks to disrupt is the concentration

600
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 4: of wealth. The trouble with centralized wealth is that it's

601
00:42:55,620 --> 00:42:58,980
Speaker 4: typically controlled by people with no connection to a local community.

602
00:42:59,530 --> 00:43:02,270
Speaker 4: That's why the Berkshires program acts as a bulwark against

603
00:43:02,310 --> 00:43:04,590
Speaker 4: the conglomeration of businesses that.

604
00:43:04,810 --> 00:43:06,989
Speaker 8: Only speak to the values of shareholders who want to

605
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:10,430
Speaker 8: see more and more and more profits over time.

606
00:43:10,489 --> 00:43:14,009
Speaker 4: Local currency is a tool created to minimize the outsized

607
00:43:14,130 --> 00:43:18,930
Speaker 4: power of billionaires, private equity and stockholder-focused banking interests. Because

608
00:43:18,969 --> 00:43:21,950
Speaker 4: quite simply put, their monetary interests.

609
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 5: Are often what sucks the life out of communities.

610
00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:28,810
Speaker 4: In stark contrast to that dynamic, a local currency becomes

611
00:43:28,910 --> 00:43:31,670
Speaker 4: a means for a community to tend to their own

612
00:43:31,810 --> 00:43:34,680
Speaker 4: economic garden, so to speak. And that's why, as an

613
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:38,980
Speaker 4: alternative currency, it's meant to work in conjunction with the U.S. Treasury,

614
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,779
Speaker 4: not as a means to replace it. Or, as Peter

615
00:43:42,820 --> 00:43:43,819
Speaker 4: LaRochelle puts it.

616
00:43:44,340 --> 00:43:48,779
Speaker 8: Businesses are taking Berkshires the same way they would regular U.S. dollars,

617
00:43:48,860 --> 00:43:51,250
Speaker 8: and they do it to make a profit. So I

618
00:43:51,270 --> 00:43:55,609
Speaker 8: don't think there's anything so dissimilar about Berkshires compared to

619
00:43:55,930 --> 00:43:58,950
Speaker 8: regular capitalist systems. Other than that, we're prioritizing the little

620
00:43:58,969 --> 00:44:04,529
Speaker 8: guys and individual communities and really a thriving capitalist business

621
00:44:04,570 --> 00:44:09,239
Speaker 8: scene on your main streets and business corridors that are

622
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:13,700
Speaker 8: supported by a ton of different people and small businesses

623
00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 8: that fill in all the niche needs in their communities.

624
00:44:17,260 --> 00:44:20,420
Speaker 4: The Schumacher Center defines a local currency as.

625
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:24,660
Speaker 8: An umbrella term for... any sort of currency that is

626
00:44:25,180 --> 00:44:30,930
Speaker 8: place-based and intended to build a more sustainable or resilient

627
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:34,810
Speaker 8: local economy. So those are two key aspects to it.

628
00:44:35,090 --> 00:44:38,270
Speaker 8: And I can think of examples that make this distinction clear.

629
00:44:38,290 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 8: For example, a currency might be place-based, but if it's

630
00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 8: not intended to build a sustainable local economy, we don't

631
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:45,860
Speaker 8: call it a local currency.

632
00:44:46,810 --> 00:44:50,650
Speaker 4: Ultimately, this is what separates a local currency from, say,

633
00:44:50,750 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 4: a cryptocurrency, which technically is another form of alternative currency.

634
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,740
Speaker 4: As Peter LaRochelle explains, this distinction was made clear during.

635
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:05,960
Speaker 8: The crypto craze of the early 2020s, one such cryptocurrency

636
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:10,210
Speaker 8: was called MiamiCoin. It was place-based in that when people.

637
00:45:10,010 --> 00:45:11,430
Speaker 5: Mined the MiamiCoin.

638
00:45:11,989 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 8: Some percentage of the value that was created went to

639
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 8: a wallet owned by the city of Miami. So in

640
00:45:18,640 --> 00:45:21,100
Speaker 8: a way, it produced wealth for the city of Miami.

641
00:45:21,140 --> 00:45:22,140
Speaker 8: It's place-based.

642
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 5: It's in the name MiamiCoin.

643
00:45:23,969 --> 00:45:27,350
Speaker 8: But it's certainly not about creating a sustainable or resilient

644
00:45:27,390 --> 00:45:28,130
Speaker 8: local economy.

645
00:45:28,430 --> 00:45:29,550
Speaker 5: It was speculative.

646
00:45:29,630 --> 00:45:32,450
Speaker 8: It didn't really even represent a real currency in that

647
00:45:32,489 --> 00:45:36,270
Speaker 8: it couldn't be used to purchase goods or services within

648
00:45:36,290 --> 00:45:38,780
Speaker 8: Miami or within any other region.

649
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 5: It was purely speculative money.

650
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,500
Speaker 4: Another form of alternative currency, one that is quite different

651
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:48,120
Speaker 4: from crypto, is the far older concept of scrip, or

652
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:51,700
Speaker 4: company dollars. For example, in coal country, there used to

653
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:54,219
Speaker 4: be company towns, and for their local money, they had

654
00:45:54,260 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 4: something called scrip. It was a form of currency that

655
00:45:56,980 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 4: coal workers and their families could use to buy things

656
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 4: from the company's store, which, as Peter LaRochelle points out, that's.

657
00:46:04,420 --> 00:46:07,480
Speaker 8: A place-based currency, but it is not about building a

658
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,210
Speaker 8: sustainable community or community economy. We would never refer to

659
00:46:11,250 --> 00:46:13,350
Speaker 8: that kind of thing as a local currency, and certainly

660
00:46:13,390 --> 00:46:15,390
Speaker 8: we would never try to model a system after that.

661
00:46:16,060 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 4: Conversely, what the Berkshires program is designed to do is

662
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:22,700
Speaker 4: to give their community more control of their local economics.

663
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,780
Speaker 4: You see, a Berkshire is seen as a form of power,

664
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,440
Speaker 4: handing the power of a dollar back to the people

665
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 4: rather than handing that power over to the banks.

666
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 8: Well, what comes to mind when I think of money

667
00:46:35,820 --> 00:46:39,149
Speaker 8: having power is the ability for money to create more money.

668
00:46:39,900 --> 00:46:44,580
Speaker 8: where you take your money and you store it in.

669
00:46:43,620 --> 00:46:46,530
Speaker 5: Some investment account off in the middle of nowhere.

670
00:46:46,870 --> 00:46:50,049
Speaker 8: And once you generate enough money, you can just keep

671
00:46:50,090 --> 00:46:53,890
Speaker 8: generating more and more and more. Berkshires does not work

672
00:46:53,950 --> 00:46:57,340
Speaker 8: like that. Berkshires is power. It's power on an individual

673
00:46:57,380 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 8: level to shape your community. So money, the power in

674
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 8: money is not about who you can influence or how

675
00:47:04,120 --> 00:47:06,819
Speaker 8: much wealth you can generate for your own personal gain.

676
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,500
Speaker 8: The power behind Berkshires is more about where you're spending

677
00:47:10,540 --> 00:47:13,450
Speaker 8: your money and what kind of money you're spending. How

678
00:47:13,489 --> 00:47:15,210
Speaker 8: does that impact the people around you?

679
00:47:15,250 --> 00:47:16,530
Speaker 5: How does that impact your community?

680
00:47:17,010 --> 00:47:21,630
Speaker 8: And that's, in a way, something that feels lost in

681
00:47:21,670 --> 00:47:25,470
Speaker 8: traditional currency. People don't think twice about where it goes,

682
00:47:26,010 --> 00:47:28,700
Speaker 8: where it came from, or who it's supporting.

683
00:47:29,540 --> 00:47:33,100
Speaker 4: Whereas with Berkshires, their local currency makes that same power

684
00:47:33,140 --> 00:47:36,620
Speaker 4: of money manifest and highly visible for the local community.

685
00:47:36,930 --> 00:47:39,310
Speaker 4: They know where their money is going and what good

686
00:47:39,350 --> 00:47:40,890
Speaker 4: it's doing for their community.

687
00:47:41,330 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 8: Berkshires are place-based and they bring it back to those

688
00:47:44,219 --> 00:47:47,899
Speaker 8: values of supporting a local economy and local resources for

689
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 8: local needs. So I think that it flips power on

690
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:54,580
Speaker 8: its head by making people think not what money can

691
00:47:54,620 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 8: do for yourself and what kind of wealth you can

692
00:47:57,420 --> 00:48:01,569
Speaker 8: generate for yourself and where you can store your money.

693
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:05,000
Speaker 8: to be able to influence the right people, but rather

694
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:08,779
Speaker 8: it's about empowering you and your fellow community members to

695
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:11,020
Speaker 8: shape the kind of community you want to see.

696
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:14,880
Speaker 4: Since money is a form of power, a local currency

697
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,430
Speaker 4: is a way to take some of your power back.

698
00:48:18,010 --> 00:48:20,650
Speaker 4: While local currencies may come off like some brand new

699
00:48:20,750 --> 00:48:24,170
Speaker 4: idea like crypto, and while its advocates may pitch it

700
00:48:24,230 --> 00:48:26,870
Speaker 4: as the sort of economic idea that Bernie bros could

701
00:48:26,910 --> 00:48:30,469
Speaker 4: get behind and that aging hippies could equally love, A

702
00:48:30,510 --> 00:48:33,980
Speaker 4: local currency is primarily a means for community members of

703
00:48:34,060 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 4: all ages and walks of life to more meaningfully engage

704
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,500
Speaker 4: in the economic life in their cities, towns, and hamlets.

705
00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 4: And as the local currencies of the 18th and 19th

706
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:48,620
Speaker 4: centuries prove, this idea is not new. Also, it's not

707
00:48:48,780 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 4: unique to the United States. During the Great Depression over

708
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:55,820
Speaker 4: in Austria, a small town called Virgel was having a

709
00:48:55,860 --> 00:49:00,520
Speaker 4: tough time. Unemployment was rampant, debts were skyrocketing, and infrastructure

710
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 4: was falling apart. The town desperately needed money to combat

711
00:49:04,100 --> 00:49:07,700
Speaker 4: all three issues, so they introduced a local currency called

712
00:49:08,110 --> 00:49:13,470
Speaker 4: labor certificates. That Hail Mary economic act saved the town.

713
00:49:13,950 --> 00:49:15,989
Speaker 4: Unemployment fell by 25%, at the same time that it

714
00:49:16,010 --> 00:49:21,950
Speaker 4: was rising by 19% across the rest of Austria. The

715
00:49:22,010 --> 00:49:25,150
Speaker 4: secret to their success was that this new form of

716
00:49:25,250 --> 00:49:28,950
Speaker 4: money stayed in their town as it circulated. Thus, their

717
00:49:29,110 --> 00:49:33,220
Speaker 4: introduction of this local currency blunted the devastating impacts of

718
00:49:33,260 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 4: their Great Depression. This unexpected success became known as the

719
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,660
Speaker 4: Miracle of Wörgl. Unfortunately, when the town's mayor shared stories

720
00:49:42,700 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 4: of their success at a meeting of 170 other mayors,

721
00:49:47,050 --> 00:49:49,730
Speaker 4: the Central Bank of Austria caught wind of it and

722
00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:53,690
Speaker 4: outlawed their local currency. Guess they saw this local currency

723
00:49:53,770 --> 00:49:56,390
Speaker 4: as too much of a threat for their business model

724
00:49:56,469 --> 00:50:01,350
Speaker 4: of debt and centralized banking. More recently, in 1972, a

725
00:50:01,370 --> 00:50:05,859
Speaker 4: man named Ralph Borsotti created a local alternative currency experiment

726
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,720
Speaker 4: in Exeter, New Hampshire, called The Constant. It was called

727
00:50:09,860 --> 00:50:13,259
Speaker 4: the constant because it was a citizen-issued currency backed by

728
00:50:13,300 --> 00:50:16,580
Speaker 4: an index of world commodities to give the local currency

729
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 4: real purchasing power and to keep that purchasing power constant

730
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:24,489
Speaker 4: as the years went on. Unfortunately, due to the ill

731
00:50:24,530 --> 00:50:28,210
Speaker 4: health of Ralph Borsotti, his experiment with local currencies had

732
00:50:28,270 --> 00:50:32,430
Speaker 4: to be discontinued. However, the spirit of this idea remained vital,

733
00:50:32,590 --> 00:50:36,030
Speaker 4: particularly in the New England area where the Berkshires program

734
00:50:36,070 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 4: would come to be decades later. Meanwhile, overseas, particularly in Europe,

735
00:50:41,540 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 4: the idea of a local currency remained quite popular. In 2015,

736
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 4: it was estimated that there were nearly 400 local currencies

737
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:52,219
Speaker 4: circulating in Spain. And in the UK, there's a local

738
00:50:52,260 --> 00:50:56,240
Speaker 4: currency called the Brixton Pound. Here on the west coast

739
00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:58,590
Speaker 4: of the United States, where I live, we've seen a

740
00:50:58,770 --> 00:51:02,410
Speaker 4: number of local currencies over the years. There's the aforementioned

741
00:51:02,450 --> 00:51:05,350
Speaker 4: Davis Dollars from my hometown. And down in the area

742
00:51:05,390 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 4: of California near Yosemite National Park, there's a local currency

743
00:51:09,260 --> 00:51:12,420
Speaker 4: called the North Fork Share, which is similar to the

744
00:51:12,500 --> 00:51:16,080
Speaker 4: Berkshire Notes. Up in Oregon, back during the Great Depression,

745
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,379
Speaker 4: the town of North Bend saved their local economy by

746
00:51:19,460 --> 00:51:24,430
Speaker 4: minting wood-based coins called Myrtlewood money. Around that same time,

747
00:51:24,489 --> 00:51:27,569
Speaker 4: in the town of Hepner, Oregon, locals created their own

748
00:51:27,630 --> 00:51:32,050
Speaker 4: local currency printed on sheepskin. But once the Great Depression passed,

749
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:36,460
Speaker 4: those local currencies were no longer necessary. At the present moment,

750
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 4: our economy may not be as bad as the Great Depression,

751
00:51:39,940 --> 00:51:42,610
Speaker 4: but the power of a local currency to protect the

752
00:51:42,640 --> 00:51:47,170
Speaker 4: local community remains the same. As Peter LaRochelle points.

753
00:51:47,030 --> 00:51:51,450
Speaker 8: Out, The values that are guiding systems like Berkshires honestly

754
00:51:51,770 --> 00:51:54,469
Speaker 8: often feel amplified in the modern age, where people are

755
00:51:54,870 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 8: starting to recognize the disconnect that they feel through modern systems,

756
00:51:58,500 --> 00:52:02,730
Speaker 8: whether that's digitally or a more globalized economy, when their

757
00:52:02,770 --> 00:52:07,110
Speaker 8: communities don't have identity. I mean, there's almost a romanticization

758
00:52:07,230 --> 00:52:09,089
Speaker 8: of the past right now. I'm seeing a lot in

759
00:52:09,130 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 8: the urbanist field. It's very trendy right now, but it's

760
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 8: because people are looking back at a time where they

761
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:22,140
Speaker 8: felt like communities had real identity and individuality and strength

762
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:26,049
Speaker 8: of their own. And people want to see a future

763
00:52:26,090 --> 00:52:29,130
Speaker 8: like that. And I don't think there are many tools

764
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:32,510
Speaker 8: quite as unique as a local currency to inspire people

765
00:52:32,870 --> 00:52:35,370
Speaker 8: and create that hope and make people feel like the

766
00:52:35,410 --> 00:52:37,200
Speaker 8: direction of their community is in their hands.

767
00:52:38,020 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 4: In order for a local community to grab hold of

768
00:52:40,780 --> 00:52:43,900
Speaker 4: the wheel and steer their community through the rough economic

769
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:47,700
Speaker 4: seas ahead, La Rochelle believes that a local currency is

770
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,500
Speaker 4: one of the greatest tools available.

771
00:52:49,860 --> 00:52:51,930
Speaker 8: That's the beauty of a local currency is that we're

772
00:52:51,969 --> 00:52:56,550
Speaker 8: not talking about big systems changing. On the individual level,

773
00:52:56,590 --> 00:53:00,720
Speaker 8: we're just talking about where is your money going? Create

774
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,759
Speaker 8: a system, small nonprofit can oversee it. That takes some work.

775
00:53:04,860 --> 00:53:07,620
Speaker 8: But on the individual level, you're creating change in your

776
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:10,520
Speaker 8: community just with where you spend your dollar and what

777
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 8: kind of dollar you're using, which is something that I

778
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 8: think a lot of people can latch on to. You know,

779
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:17,180
Speaker 8: like I said, I think I'm seeing a lot of

780
00:53:17,520 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 8: movement within this country for people to do things more

781
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:24,969
Speaker 8: on a community level, on a face-to-face basis. And on

782
00:53:25,010 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 8: a human scale, really. And that's where local currencies shine.

783
00:53:28,580 --> 00:53:31,259
Speaker 8: It's human scale. It's about a region. It's not about

784
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 8: growth for the sake of growth.

785
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,660
Speaker 4: As a thriving example of a local currency, the Berkshires

786
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 4: program has enjoyed 20 years of success. The simple reason

787
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 4: for its success is that it works well as a

788
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:46,240
Speaker 4: form of money. Let's check the numbers. There are currently

789
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:52,270
Speaker 4: 111,000 Berkshires in circulation. there are more than 300 local

790
00:53:52,330 --> 00:53:55,910
Speaker 4: businesses that accept Berkshires as a form of payment. Here's

791
00:53:55,950 --> 00:53:58,719
Speaker 4: Peter LaRochelle to explain how it all works on the

792
00:53:58,780 --> 00:53:59,380
Speaker 4: local level.

793
00:53:59,960 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 5: So Berkshires are exchanged on par with U.S.

794
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:02,440
Speaker 2: Dollars.

795
00:54:02,460 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 8: So it's $ 1 for one Berkshire. There's no secret reason

796
00:54:07,340 --> 00:54:10,100
Speaker 8: to use Berkshires beyond supporting your local economy.

797
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,990
Speaker 4: So let's say you want to spend a Berkshire. How

798
00:54:14,030 --> 00:54:15,189
Speaker 4: exactly does that work?

799
00:54:15,810 --> 00:54:18,839
Speaker 8: The way Berkshires work, is anyone in the community can

800
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:21,980
Speaker 8: walk into one of our exchange points, which happen to

801
00:54:22,020 --> 00:54:25,529
Speaker 8: be community banks. People walk into the bank, go up

802
00:54:25,570 --> 00:54:27,930
Speaker 8: to the teller, and just do a transaction like they

803
00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:30,629
Speaker 8: would any other time they walk into a bank. They

804
00:54:30,710 --> 00:54:33,290
Speaker 8: ask for the teller to exchange U.S. dollars for Berkshires.

805
00:54:33,850 --> 00:54:37,210
Speaker 8: They do it pretty seamlessly. And once they have Berkshires,

806
00:54:37,250 --> 00:54:39,049
Speaker 8: they can spend them at any business that's willing to

807
00:54:39,090 --> 00:54:39,410
Speaker 8: take them.

808
00:54:40,510 --> 00:54:43,060
Speaker 4: When you use a Berkshire to buy something or to

809
00:54:43,200 --> 00:54:47,430
Speaker 4: pay for a service, It's designed to be a painless exchange.

810
00:54:47,650 --> 00:54:50,670
Speaker 4: There's no weird or wonky extra math to do since

811
00:54:50,770 --> 00:54:52,029
Speaker 4: a Berkshire has.

812
00:54:51,989 --> 00:54:53,250
Speaker 5: The same value as U.S.

813
00:54:53,290 --> 00:54:53,610
Speaker 6: Dollars.

814
00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:56,589
Speaker 8: So an item that costs $ 10 would cost 10 Berkshires.

815
00:54:56,969 --> 00:54:59,640
Speaker 8: Consumers can spend with that business in Berkshires, get their

816
00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:01,360
Speaker 8: change in Berkshires or U.S.

817
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:02,180
Speaker 9: Dollars.

818
00:55:02,620 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 8: Note that we do not have coins because it's against

819
00:55:05,780 --> 00:55:08,610
Speaker 8: the law, but you are allowed to have paper notes.

820
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:10,890
Speaker 8: So if people need change in coins, they just get

821
00:55:11,050 --> 00:55:11,870
Speaker 8: regular U.S.

822
00:55:11,910 --> 00:55:14,739
Speaker 5: Coinage. And then when the business receives that Berkshire, they

823
00:55:14,760 --> 00:55:15,360
Speaker 5: have two options.

824
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 8: They can bring it back to the bank or they

825
00:55:17,180 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 8: can go and spend it elsewhere in the community at

826
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:21,920
Speaker 8: other businesses that are willing to accept Berkshires.

827
00:55:22,780 --> 00:55:25,759
Speaker 4: Now, what happens when that business wants to exchange a

828
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 4: Berkshire and convert it back into U.S.

829
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:28,880
Speaker 9: Dollars?

830
00:55:29,700 --> 00:55:31,060
Speaker 4: Is that equally painless?

831
00:55:31,540 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 8: So business could take it back to the bank and

832
00:55:33,880 --> 00:55:36,900
Speaker 8: then they would have freedom with their U.S. dollars to

833
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,469
Speaker 8: spend that money wherever they want. So that's probably the

834
00:55:39,550 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 8: easiest decision.

835
00:55:40,969 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 4: There is a one-time transaction fee to convert a Berkshire

836
00:55:44,700 --> 00:55:48,600
Speaker 4: back into U.S. dollars, but that cost is exceedingly low.

837
00:55:48,940 --> 00:55:52,960
Speaker 8: We do have a 1.5% reverse exchange fee. So when

838
00:55:52,980 --> 00:55:55,180
Speaker 8: you're obtaining Berkshires, there's no fee. But if you're trading

839
00:55:55,219 --> 00:55:59,290
Speaker 8: Berkshires back for cash, there is that 1.5% exchange fee.

840
00:55:59,710 --> 00:56:02,870
Speaker 8: So that's lower than what businesses are used to, whether

841
00:56:02,890 --> 00:56:06,690
Speaker 8: that's with credit cards or with mobile payment platforms like

842
00:56:06,750 --> 00:56:10,150
Speaker 8: Venmo when they cash out. So it's not this massive

843
00:56:10,190 --> 00:56:12,910
Speaker 8: barrier to participating in Berkshires, but it's a number that's

844
00:56:12,969 --> 00:56:15,950
Speaker 8: high enough to make them think, maybe I would just

845
00:56:15,969 --> 00:56:18,500
Speaker 8: be better spending them in the community rather than bringing

846
00:56:18,540 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 8: it to the bank.

847
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 4: In other words, that 1.5% fee to convert a Berkshire

848
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:26,660
Speaker 4: back into a dollar is meant to encourage a community

849
00:56:26,719 --> 00:56:30,290
Speaker 4: member or a business to continue circulating the Berkshire in

850
00:56:30,330 --> 00:56:33,250
Speaker 4: the local economy for other goods or services.

851
00:56:33,870 --> 00:56:36,190
Speaker 8: And the reason that we support that is because we

852
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:38,569
Speaker 8: know when they're not bringing the Berkshires back to the bank,

853
00:56:38,610 --> 00:56:40,750
Speaker 8: that money has to stay in the community and it

854
00:56:40,790 --> 00:56:45,010
Speaker 8: stays within that tight network of local businesses that decide

855
00:56:45,030 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 8: to take Berkshires. And it also encourages new businesses to

856
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:52,940
Speaker 8: sign on because maybe when business gets some good that

857
00:56:52,980 --> 00:56:55,300
Speaker 8: they're selling, they do get locally and they say, I

858
00:56:55,840 --> 00:56:58,500
Speaker 8: have all these Berkshires, would you be willing to accept them?

859
00:56:58,540 --> 00:57:00,660
Speaker 5: And then you get more people on board that way.

860
00:57:01,310 --> 00:57:04,310
Speaker 8: So that's as simple as it gets. We call that

861
00:57:04,390 --> 00:57:08,050
Speaker 8: recirculation of Berkshires the local multiplier effect.

862
00:57:08,910 --> 00:57:12,779
Speaker 4: This local multiplier effect is another major reason for the

863
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:16,560
Speaker 4: success of Berkshires. A local currency holds the power to

864
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 4: generate two to four times more local economic impact than, say,

865
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 4: traditional money that gets spent at some big box store.

866
00:57:25,260 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 8: Study after study will show that spending your money at independent, small,

867
00:57:31,820 --> 00:57:38,070
Speaker 8: locally-based businesses will generate considerably higher proportion of downstream economic

868
00:57:38,130 --> 00:57:41,070
Speaker 8: effects within that local economy.

869
00:57:41,810 --> 00:57:44,790
Speaker 4: By keeping their dollars in their local economy, thanks to

870
00:57:44,830 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 4: their local currency, the people of the Berkshires region strengthen

871
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:51,440
Speaker 4: their local businesses and protect the area from economic troubles

872
00:57:51,760 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 4: that are wrecking shop in the larger economy.

873
00:57:54,100 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 8: That's really the selling point for Berkshires. So on your end,

874
00:57:58,310 --> 00:58:01,250
Speaker 8: You bought a $ 5 item for $ 5 or five Berkshires,

875
00:58:01,350 --> 00:58:04,610
Speaker 8: but your purchase has a little bit more power within

876
00:58:04,630 --> 00:58:07,970
Speaker 8: your community. So you feel more empowered as a consumer

877
00:58:08,030 --> 00:58:10,860
Speaker 8: to create local economic development.

878
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,740
Speaker 4: This is also the key distinction for a Berkshire versus, say,

879
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:16,940
Speaker 4: Bitcoin or other crypto coins.

880
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:21,120
Speaker 8: A local currency is place-based and it's meant to build

881
00:58:21,140 --> 00:58:25,470
Speaker 8: a sustainable local economy. So a cryptocurrency... Could be either

882
00:58:25,550 --> 00:58:32,100
Speaker 8: one of those things. But in general, cryptocurrencies are speculative. Bitcoin, Dogecoin, MiamiCoin,

883
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,800
Speaker 8: which we mentioned earlier, those are speculative. The purpose of

884
00:58:35,280 --> 00:58:39,640
Speaker 8: cryptocurrencies is not to invest in your community, even in

885
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 8: large geographic areas. It's about personal financial gain. And often

886
00:58:45,060 --> 00:58:47,220
Speaker 8: they're not even treated as currencies. They're not used to

887
00:58:47,300 --> 00:58:50,910
Speaker 8: exchange goods. They're used to hold and then sell when

888
00:58:50,950 --> 00:58:53,100
Speaker 8: more people buy them and the price goes up.

889
00:58:54,130 --> 00:58:57,430
Speaker 4: Which raises an interesting question. Could a local currency like

890
00:58:57,490 --> 00:59:02,140
Speaker 4: Berkshires issue its own cryptocurrency, one that is specifically designed

891
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:04,220
Speaker 4: for the same local community usage?

892
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:08,690
Speaker 8: We did have a digital currency in a beta form

893
00:59:09,290 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 8: in mid to late 2000s.

894
00:59:10,870 --> 00:59:12,990
Speaker 5: 2022. There were a lot of benefits to the app.

895
00:59:13,010 --> 00:59:15,260
Speaker 8: We were bringing in a lot of new businesses that

896
00:59:15,300 --> 00:59:17,380
Speaker 8: didn't really want to deal with the paper currency, but

897
00:59:17,420 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 8: were happy to deal with a more frictionless platform. We

898
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:22,760
Speaker 8: saw a lot of people get excited over the fact

899
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:25,820
Speaker 8: that they could use Berkshires without always having to walk

900
00:59:25,860 --> 00:59:27,660
Speaker 8: into a bank. It was as easy as taking out

901
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:29,180
Speaker 8: their phone and scanning.

902
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,370
Speaker 5: A QR code. But there were many things that needed to.

903
00:59:31,350 --> 00:59:34,230
Speaker 8: Be fixed within the app and sort of systemic things

904
00:59:34,290 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 8: that made it not sustainable at that time, including the

905
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:40,900
Speaker 8: cost of maintaining the app. So we do want to

906
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:45,240
Speaker 8: restart a mobile payment platform with Berkshares and other digital

907
00:59:45,260 --> 00:59:47,620
Speaker 8: ways to use them. But we only want to do

908
00:59:47,660 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 8: it if we're doing it exactly right. We don't want

909
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:54,010
Speaker 8: to roll out a product that is not meeting the

910
00:59:54,050 --> 00:59:55,010
Speaker 8: needs in the community.

911
00:59:55,930 --> 00:59:59,700
Speaker 4: This leads to another key question. These days, who is

912
00:59:59,740 --> 01:00:03,620
Speaker 4: still using paper money for their purchases? Well, we already

913
01:00:03,660 --> 01:00:06,820
Speaker 4: know the answer to that, older generations. So does that

914
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 4: limit the impact of Berkshires if younger people are less

915
01:00:09,940 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 4: likely to use cash as a form of money?

916
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,660
Speaker 8: Speaking to generational gaps, in general, we find that Berkshires

917
01:00:15,700 --> 01:00:19,200
Speaker 8: are used more often in older populations, people who are

918
01:00:19,600 --> 01:00:23,180
Speaker 8: more familiar with The nature of walking into a bank

919
01:00:23,540 --> 01:00:26,340
Speaker 8: or even just using physical currency and keeping that on

920
01:00:26,380 --> 01:00:29,740
Speaker 8: their person at all times, that is admittedly getting a

921
01:00:29,780 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 8: bit antiquated, especially ever since early 2020s where it seems

922
01:00:34,300 --> 01:00:38,070
Speaker 8: like every sort of digital platform, whether it's payment or

923
01:00:38,150 --> 01:00:42,430
Speaker 8: even doing business digitally by purchasing things online, we find

924
01:00:42,470 --> 01:00:45,790
Speaker 8: that younger people are using those platforms more often and

925
01:00:46,210 --> 01:00:48,189
Speaker 8: many of them have never even walked into a bank

926
01:00:48,510 --> 01:00:50,800
Speaker 8: in their whole lives. So that's where we start to

927
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:53,390
Speaker 8: see a generational gap where there's a lot of friction

928
01:00:53,450 --> 01:00:56,430
Speaker 8: for a young person to use Berkshires because doing those

929
01:00:56,490 --> 01:00:59,790
Speaker 8: kinds of things are not part of their daily life.

930
01:00:59,870 --> 01:01:00,660
Speaker 5: They're not used to it.

931
01:01:11,820 --> 01:01:13,980
Speaker 4: While young folks aren't as likely to step into a

932
01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:17,260
Speaker 4: bank to exchange dollars for Berkshires, They do tend to

933
01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,000
Speaker 4: notice them when someone else spends them in a local business.

934
01:01:20,460 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 4: The reason is immediate. It's the artwork that colors a

935
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:27,810
Speaker 4: Berkshire note. On each denomination of Berkshires, there's a different

936
01:01:27,850 --> 01:01:30,730
Speaker 4: local hero who's celebrated, both for their value to the

937
01:01:30,770 --> 01:01:34,830
Speaker 4: community and to our American culture writ large. For instance,

938
01:01:34,970 --> 01:01:38,450
Speaker 4: on the $ 50 Berkshire note, you find a portrait.

939
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 8: Of Norman Rockwell, a legendary artist. whose artwork itself I

940
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 8: think fits a lot of the themes of Berkshires. It's

941
01:01:48,020 --> 01:01:52,180
Speaker 8: inclusive of everyone. There's no sector of American life that

942
01:01:52,220 --> 01:01:56,230
Speaker 8: hasn't been touched by Norman Rockwell's artwork in some form

943
01:01:56,330 --> 01:01:59,210
Speaker 8: or no kind of person who hasn't been represented in

944
01:01:59,250 --> 01:02:02,530
Speaker 8: some form. So Norman Rockwell is natural for including on

945
01:02:02,550 --> 01:02:05,030
Speaker 8: the Berkshires in that sense, but also Norman Rockwell has

946
01:02:05,090 --> 01:02:08,020
Speaker 8: a long history in the Berkshires. Hundreds and hundreds of

947
01:02:08,080 --> 01:02:12,090
Speaker 8: his paintings were made at his studio in Stockbridge, Massachusetts,

948
01:02:12,110 --> 01:02:14,490
Speaker 8: which is in Berkshire County, just north of Great Barrington.

949
01:02:14,990 --> 01:02:19,910
Speaker 8: The Norman Rockwell Museum is in Stockbridge, and his legacy

950
01:02:19,950 --> 01:02:24,340
Speaker 8: plays a really foundational role in Berkshire history. And people

951
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 8: often drive down through Stockbridge or even other Berkshire towns

952
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:31,400
Speaker 8: and say, wow, this town looks like it's straight out

953
01:02:31,420 --> 01:02:33,970
Speaker 8: of a Norman Rockwell painting. And at least in the

954
01:02:34,010 --> 01:02:36,830
Speaker 8: town of Stockbridge, that's because it is directly out of

955
01:02:36,870 --> 01:02:39,930
Speaker 8: a Norman Rockwell painting. So we honor that history by

956
01:02:39,970 --> 01:02:42,770
Speaker 8: featuring him on the $ 50 Berkshire and, of course, also

957
01:02:43,290 --> 01:02:46,450
Speaker 8: honor the themes of his artwork as well, which often

958
01:02:46,530 --> 01:02:52,570
Speaker 8: centered on small town life and the beauty of personal

959
01:02:52,610 --> 01:02:54,340
Speaker 8: relationships at the local level.

960
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:58,500
Speaker 4: For the $ 20 Berkshire note, the Schumacher Center opted to

961
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:02,260
Speaker 4: celebrate another famous son of New England, who's also another

962
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 4: world-famous American.

963
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:09,180
Speaker 8: We feature Herman Melville, author of Moby Dick. Herman Melville

964
01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:13,010
Speaker 8: did not grow up in Berkshire County, but he eventually

965
01:03:13,180 --> 01:03:17,770
Speaker 8: moved here because he found inspiration in the natural landscape

966
01:03:17,950 --> 01:03:21,330
Speaker 8: of the Berkshires. He settled down at Arrowhead, or what

967
01:03:21,390 --> 01:03:24,750
Speaker 8: is now Arrowhead in Pittsfield, which at this point is

968
01:03:25,010 --> 01:03:29,310
Speaker 8: a museum. But at Arrowhead, that was his workplace. And

969
01:03:29,810 --> 01:03:32,490
Speaker 8: In fact, one of my favorite hiking spots in Berkshire

970
01:03:32,510 --> 01:03:36,450
Speaker 8: County at Monument Mountain in Great Barrington, Herman Melville frequented

971
01:03:36,850 --> 01:03:41,070
Speaker 8: Monument Mountain to gain inspiration for his writings. And I

972
01:03:41,110 --> 01:03:44,170
Speaker 8: think that's really cool that Herman Melville found that same

973
01:03:44,230 --> 01:03:47,730
Speaker 8: inspiration in the Berkshire landscape that so many people who

974
01:03:47,770 --> 01:03:51,130
Speaker 8: come here every day feel. So we honor his history

975
01:03:51,170 --> 01:03:53,090
Speaker 8: and the Berkshires on the $ 20 Berkshire.

976
01:03:54,250 --> 01:03:57,570
Speaker 4: As for the $ 10 Berkshire note, it celebrates a hero

977
01:03:57,640 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 4: of the local agriculture movement. If you've ever taken part

978
01:04:00,620 --> 01:04:04,220
Speaker 4: in community-supported agriculture, if you've ever signed up to receive

979
01:04:04,300 --> 01:04:07,900
Speaker 4: a CSA box of fresh produce, you have Robin Van

980
01:04:08,020 --> 01:04:08,760
Speaker 4: En to thank.

981
01:04:09,300 --> 01:04:13,640
Speaker 8: Robin Van En founded the first community-supported agriculture project in

982
01:04:14,280 --> 01:04:17,430
Speaker 8: North America. Her work created a movement out of it.

983
01:04:18,300 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 8: You know, now we find hundreds and hundreds of farms

984
01:04:20,600 --> 01:04:23,940
Speaker 8: across the country using a CSA model to raise money

985
01:04:23,980 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 8: before the growing season and lock in capital. And instead

986
01:04:27,980 --> 01:04:32,150
Speaker 8: of having to pay it back with loans with ridiculous

987
01:04:32,190 --> 01:04:36,050
Speaker 8: interest rates, they just pay back that money with really

988
01:04:36,090 --> 01:04:39,470
Speaker 8: delicious food that they grow. We, of course, honor that

989
01:04:39,530 --> 01:04:43,160
Speaker 8: history because it's so related to our mission of community

990
01:04:43,180 --> 01:04:47,980
Speaker 8: supported industry more broadly. Community supported agriculture would fall into

991
01:04:48,020 --> 01:04:51,900
Speaker 8: that umbrella. So she's on the $ 10 Berkshire. Notably, her

992
01:04:52,460 --> 01:04:56,440
Speaker 8: CSA farm was located in Berkshire County. It was in

993
01:04:56,460 --> 01:04:57,380
Speaker 8: the town of Egremont.

994
01:04:57,420 --> 01:04:58,060
Speaker 5: It still exists.

995
01:04:58,100 --> 01:05:01,910
Speaker 8: Robin Van End passed away unexpectedly at a pretty young age,

996
01:05:02,310 --> 01:05:05,790
Speaker 8: but the farm still has a thriving CSA program. It's

997
01:05:05,870 --> 01:05:08,510
Speaker 8: on community land trust land. So there's a lot of

998
01:05:08,810 --> 01:05:11,650
Speaker 8: connections with her legacy and the Schumacher Center.

999
01:05:12,710 --> 01:05:16,110
Speaker 4: Next up, we have the $ 5 Berkshire note, which features

1000
01:05:16,130 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 4: a local artist portrait of W.E.B.

1001
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,860
Speaker 8: Du Bois, which is actually, I think, a really inspiring

1002
01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 8: story out of the Berkshires organization.

1003
01:05:24,940 --> 01:05:25,700
Speaker 5: W.E.B.

1004
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:29,060
Speaker 8: Du Bois has really become the face of the town

1005
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,660
Speaker 8: of Great Barrington and has been recognized as the son

1006
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,250
Speaker 8: of the town. You'll find throughout Great Barrington, there are

1007
01:05:34,430 --> 01:05:39,380
Speaker 8: all sorts of murals and landmarks and historical sites that

1008
01:05:39,660 --> 01:05:42,610
Speaker 8: recount his history and are dedicated to him, you know,

1009
01:05:42,660 --> 01:05:47,110
Speaker 8: murals that include his face. The middle school actually has

1010
01:05:47,170 --> 01:05:51,310
Speaker 8: been renamed to W.E.B. Du Bois Regional Middle School. And

1011
01:05:51,490 --> 01:05:53,870
Speaker 8: it feels like every month there's some new project in

1012
01:05:53,910 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 8: town to further honor and educate people on his history. Recently,

1013
01:05:59,000 --> 01:06:02,000
Speaker 8: a statue of W.E.B. Du Bois was added outside the

1014
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:06,250
Speaker 8: Great Barrington Library, Mason Library. So in general, the town

1015
01:06:06,270 --> 01:06:08,830
Speaker 8: has taken on a much more active role in honoring

1016
01:06:08,870 --> 01:06:11,330
Speaker 8: his history, but Berkshire's has been doing that for a

1017
01:06:11,350 --> 01:06:14,150
Speaker 8: long time. So we're glad to have played a role.

1018
01:06:14,330 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 8: We hope that we played a role in changing that

1019
01:06:17,340 --> 01:06:20,980
Speaker 8: perception and getting the town to more actively celebrate his history.

1020
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:25,660
Speaker 4: And lastly, for the $ 1 Berkshire note, rather than celebrate

1021
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:29,740
Speaker 4: an individual, the Schumacher Center opted to celebrate a whole community.

1022
01:06:30,300 --> 01:06:33,230
Speaker 8: It's the only Berkshire that doesn't feature a specific individual,

1023
01:06:33,690 --> 01:06:37,890
Speaker 8: but it does feature a Stockbridge Mohican. The Mohicans were

1024
01:06:38,350 --> 01:06:43,450
Speaker 8: not actually native to the Berkshire region, but they were

1025
01:06:43,510 --> 01:06:47,730
Speaker 8: pushed over here during colonial times. And I think it's

1026
01:06:47,750 --> 01:06:51,710
Speaker 8: an interesting story because nowadays they actually look back to

1027
01:06:51,730 --> 01:06:54,740
Speaker 8: the Berkshires as their homeland in a way, even though

1028
01:06:54,780 --> 01:06:57,020
Speaker 8: it wasn't necessarily where they.

1029
01:06:56,960 --> 01:06:58,320
Speaker 5: All came from originally.

1030
01:06:58,910 --> 01:07:03,700
Speaker 8: But the Mohicans were one of the only Native American

1031
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:09,240
Speaker 8: tribes that fought alongside the revolutionaries in the Revolutionary War.

1032
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 8: But of course, they were pushed out of the Berkshire

1033
01:07:14,020 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 8: region eventually. But there is still an active presence with

1034
01:07:19,260 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 8: some local groups to maintain their history in the Berkshires.

1035
01:07:22,800 --> 01:07:25,160
Speaker 8: And we hope that Berkshires is one small part in

1036
01:07:25,200 --> 01:07:28,140
Speaker 8: doing that to remind people of the people that were

1037
01:07:28,160 --> 01:07:28,880
Speaker 8: here before us.

1038
01:07:31,140 --> 01:07:34,540
Speaker 4: Due to the 20-year success story of the Berkshires program,

1039
01:07:34,980 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 4: other communities across the country and around the world often

1040
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:41,090
Speaker 4: approach the Schumacher Center for help to design, create, and

1041
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:43,030
Speaker 4: distribute their own local currency.

1042
01:07:43,370 --> 01:07:46,770
Speaker 8: We are kind of that go-to institution for people that

1043
01:07:46,830 --> 01:07:49,390
Speaker 8: want to learn how to start their own currencies or

1044
01:07:49,950 --> 01:07:54,860
Speaker 8: other similar systems. And the number one challenge that I

1045
01:07:54,890 --> 01:07:58,460
Speaker 8: bring up to them, challenge, but also what we see

1046
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:01,480
Speaker 8: is the most important thing for obtaining success with a

1047
01:08:01,520 --> 01:08:04,919
Speaker 8: local currency in the United States, would be working with

1048
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 8: community banks. Berkshires is very unique in that we do

1049
01:08:09,880 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 8: not exchange currency ourselves. You don't walk into a Berkshires

1050
01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 8: office and trade in dollars for Berkshires. You walk into

1051
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:20,260
Speaker 8: a community bank. In general, when you're working with a

1052
01:08:20,300 --> 01:08:24,520
Speaker 8: small community bank, they have all the infrastructure needed to

1053
01:08:24,590 --> 01:08:26,269
Speaker 8: account for a currency.

1054
01:08:27,030 --> 01:08:29,970
Speaker 4: This is equally key for the success of a local currency,

1055
01:08:30,030 --> 01:08:32,970
Speaker 4: since it is money, and it's important that people have

1056
01:08:33,110 --> 01:08:35,429
Speaker 4: full faith and trust in their money.

1057
01:08:35,890 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 8: To build trust in that system, you can't tell people,

1058
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:41,320
Speaker 8: I'm keeping track of how much money is where, and

1059
01:08:41,380 --> 01:08:43,340
Speaker 8: I'll be able to make sure you can always trade

1060
01:08:43,380 --> 01:08:45,660
Speaker 8: your money back in. That's not going to build trust.

1061
01:08:45,720 --> 01:08:47,559
Speaker 8: But when you're doing it through an institution like a bank,

1062
01:08:47,979 --> 01:08:50,780
Speaker 8: that has the resources to just manage Berkshires like they

1063
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,780
Speaker 8: do any other account. So it's not a crazy load

1064
01:08:53,820 --> 01:08:56,610
Speaker 8: on their part. That's how a system like Berkshires can

1065
01:08:56,650 --> 01:08:57,950
Speaker 8: thrive for so many years.

1066
01:08:58,910 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 4: If this sounds good to your ears, and if you'd

1067
01:09:00,960 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 4: like to see something like this in your local community,

1068
01:09:03,620 --> 01:09:06,860
Speaker 4: Peter LaRochelle has a few recommendations for how to make

1069
01:09:06,900 --> 01:09:07,299
Speaker 4: it happen.

1070
01:09:07,720 --> 01:09:09,740
Speaker 8: So if you're looking to start a local currency in

1071
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,469
Speaker 8: the United States, the challenge that you're going to have

1072
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:16,130
Speaker 8: to face, but also probably gives you the best opportunity

1073
01:09:16,170 --> 01:09:20,170
Speaker 8: for long-term success, is finding a banking institutions that you

1074
01:09:20,210 --> 01:09:22,830
Speaker 8: can work with and work out of that share your mission.

1075
01:09:23,250 --> 01:09:24,790
Speaker 8: You're not going to be able to work out of

1076
01:09:24,810 --> 01:09:25,729
Speaker 8: the Bank of America.

1077
01:09:26,830 --> 01:09:29,889
Speaker 4: This should surprise no one. Much like the Austrian local

1078
01:09:29,930 --> 01:09:32,460
Speaker 4: currency that saved a town but was outlawed when the

1079
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:35,840
Speaker 4: central bank heard about its success, in today's banking world,

1080
01:09:35,939 --> 01:09:40,040
Speaker 4: a major transnational bank like Bank of America has similar

1081
01:09:40,100 --> 01:09:42,800
Speaker 4: reasons to not want to see the success of a

1082
01:09:42,860 --> 01:09:47,150
Speaker 4: local currency. it offers direct competition for their bottom line,

1083
01:09:47,290 --> 01:09:50,630
Speaker 4: which is what matters most to big banks. Back to

1084
01:09:50,650 --> 01:09:51,550
Speaker 4: Peter LaRochelle.

1085
01:09:52,110 --> 01:09:54,010
Speaker 8: I say that all the time. If those are the

1086
01:09:54,030 --> 01:09:56,190
Speaker 8: only banks in your community, you might have to explore

1087
01:09:56,229 --> 01:09:59,180
Speaker 8: other options because they don't want to get involved with

1088
01:09:59,260 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 8: initiatives like this. You have to work with the kinds

1089
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:03,660
Speaker 8: of banks that share your mission. And you can work

1090
01:10:03,700 --> 01:10:06,640
Speaker 8: through a credit union, perhaps. Or in the Northeast, we

1091
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:09,940
Speaker 8: have mutual banks that operate similarly to a credit union,

1092
01:10:10,020 --> 01:10:13,969
Speaker 8: but Still, they're the small community-focused banks that actually have

1093
01:10:14,090 --> 01:10:17,490
Speaker 8: ownership within the community. So they're more likely to sign

1094
01:10:17,590 --> 01:10:20,350
Speaker 8: on on an initiative like this. And since they share

1095
01:10:20,370 --> 01:10:23,389
Speaker 8: your mission of local economic development, that's also an easy sell.

1096
01:10:25,010 --> 01:10:29,060
Speaker 4: Norman Rockwell, who was mentioned earlier, celebrated small-town life and

1097
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:33,260
Speaker 4: a local-based idea of Americana. And as such, his work

1098
01:10:33,360 --> 01:10:36,120
Speaker 4: serves as a reminder of the importance of embracing a

1099
01:10:36,200 --> 01:10:39,230
Speaker 4: local identity and as a point not just of pride

1100
01:10:39,270 --> 01:10:42,530
Speaker 4: of place, but as a source of community power in

1101
01:10:42,630 --> 01:10:46,490
Speaker 4: order to survive those storms that blow in from faraway

1102
01:10:46,550 --> 01:10:51,900
Speaker 4: places and threaten a community. Norman Rockwell serves as a

1103
01:10:51,939 --> 01:10:55,180
Speaker 4: beautiful reminder of the past and also what lessons we

1104
01:10:55,220 --> 01:10:56,600
Speaker 4: can pull from our history.

1105
01:10:57,540 --> 01:11:00,000
Speaker 8: The people that we feature on the Berkshires, like Norman

1106
01:11:00,040 --> 01:11:03,500
Speaker 8: Rockwell or W.E.B. Du Bois, these are people who everyone

1107
01:11:03,540 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 8: in a community can rally behind and can share something with.

1108
01:11:07,740 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 8: We're speaking to shared values that I think Americans across

1109
01:11:11,360 --> 01:11:17,429
Speaker 8: the political spectrum, Americans across generations that they share. People

1110
01:11:17,510 --> 01:11:22,910
Speaker 8: want to see a vibrant, thriving local economy within their community.

1111
01:11:23,330 --> 01:11:27,110
Speaker 8: And that's what we are ultimately looking for. And what's

1112
01:11:27,150 --> 01:11:31,010
Speaker 8: more American than teaming up with neighbors from any background,

1113
01:11:31,530 --> 01:11:36,030
Speaker 8: from all identities to identify shared values and Do work

1114
01:11:36,070 --> 01:11:39,130
Speaker 8: together to achieve that community and vision that.

1115
01:11:39,070 --> 01:11:42,270
Speaker 5: You want to see. That's the American dream in a nutshell.

1116
01:11:53,430 --> 01:11:57,050
Speaker 10: If money makes the world go round, delivery workers make

1117
01:11:57,150 --> 01:12:00,840
Speaker 10: New York City go round. From delivering morning coffee to

1118
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:05,299
Speaker 10: sweet green bowl slop or midnight Taco Bell, food delivery

1119
01:12:05,340 --> 01:12:10,540
Speaker 10: workers shuttle snacks and treats 24-7 via bicycle and scooter,

1120
01:12:11,300 --> 01:12:15,839
Speaker 10: while a network of last-mile couriers fill my apartment lobby

1121
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:20,300
Speaker 10: with Amazon packages. Seriously, one of my new, more well-off

1122
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 10: neighbors must, like, never go to the store. They get

1123
01:12:24,810 --> 01:12:28,290
Speaker 10: every single thing delivered. I'm talking almost 10 Amazon packages

1124
01:12:28,310 --> 01:12:32,870
Speaker 10: a day for the same person. But there's an odd

1125
01:12:32,910 --> 01:12:37,780
Speaker 10: little quirk. with how Amazon transports orders from the fulfillment

1126
01:12:37,820 --> 01:12:43,179
Speaker 10: center to your doorstep, in that they don't. The worker

1127
01:12:43,240 --> 01:12:47,480
Speaker 10: delivering your Amazon package may be wearing an Amazon vest,

1128
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:50,340
Speaker 10: driving an Amazon van, and peeing in a water bottle

1129
01:12:50,360 --> 01:12:52,920
Speaker 10: so they don't fall behind on a delivery route scheduled

1130
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:58,950
Speaker 10: by Amazon, but technically, that worker is not employed by Amazon.

1131
01:12:59,770 --> 01:13:04,650
Speaker 10: They work for a subcontractor, which Amazon calls a delivery

1132
01:13:04,770 --> 01:13:07,590
Speaker 10: service partner or a DSP.

1133
01:13:08,450 --> 01:13:10,470
Speaker 2: Why might that be? Picture this.

1134
01:13:11,290 --> 01:13:15,300
Speaker 10: A hurricane is rolling into town, but Amazon still needs

1135
01:13:15,340 --> 01:13:19,060
Speaker 10: to deliver those prime two-day orders. While drivers are in

1136
01:13:19,100 --> 01:13:22,000
Speaker 10: the middle of their route, the storm suddenly gets worse,

1137
01:13:22,580 --> 01:13:26,350
Speaker 10: and a driver gets into a bad accident. Because that

1138
01:13:26,430 --> 01:13:32,430
Speaker 10: driver is technically employed by a subcontractor, Amazon isn't responsible

1139
01:13:32,590 --> 01:13:35,810
Speaker 10: for the well-being of the worker and can't be held

1140
01:13:35,910 --> 01:13:41,190
Speaker 10: liable for any damages. Then let's say those drivers unionize

1141
01:13:41,450 --> 01:13:46,370
Speaker 10: due to dangerous working conditions. Rather than negotiate with the union,

1142
01:13:47,229 --> 01:13:52,110
Speaker 10: Amazon can just terminate their contract with the delivery service partner.

1143
01:13:53,590 --> 01:13:56,889
Speaker 10: I'm Garrison Davis, and this is It Could Happen Here.

1144
01:13:57,680 --> 01:14:00,809
Speaker 10: And this is one of those this is already happening

1145
01:14:00,910 --> 01:14:05,010
Speaker 10: type stories, and actually has been for some time, but

1146
01:14:05,050 --> 01:14:09,330
Speaker 10: now people are organizing to do something about it. About

1147
01:14:09,350 --> 01:14:12,890
Speaker 10: a year ago, the Teamsters teamed up with Democratic Socialist

1148
01:14:13,010 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 10: New York City Councilmember Tiffany Caban to introduce Bill 0518-2026,

1149
01:14:20,410 --> 01:14:25,440
Speaker 10: also known as the Delivery Protection Act, which, among other things,

1150
01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:31,050
Speaker 10: would require companies like Amazon to to actually employ the

1151
01:14:31,090 --> 01:14:35,689
Speaker 10: drivers and warehouse workers who handle the so-called last mile

1152
01:14:35,910 --> 01:14:39,830
Speaker 10: of delivery, getting your package from the local warehouse to

1153
01:14:39,930 --> 01:14:44,479
Speaker 10: your doorstep. The bill was reintroduced this past February, and

1154
01:14:44,740 --> 01:14:47,059
Speaker 10: for the past few months, the New York City chapter

1155
01:14:47,220 --> 01:14:51,099
Speaker 10: of the Democratic Socialists of America have been organizing to

1156
01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:53,179
Speaker 10: push the bill over the finish line.

1157
01:14:53,850 --> 01:14:56,630
Speaker 11: My name's Matt Maresca. Olivia and I are both on

1158
01:14:56,650 --> 01:15:00,710
Speaker 11: the Labor Working Group Organizing Committee for NYC DSA. I

1159
01:15:00,710 --> 01:15:05,030
Speaker 11: am the Legislative Coordinator, the Labor Legislative Coordinator for the group.

1160
01:15:05,590 --> 01:15:09,950
Speaker 12: I'm Olivia, and I serve on both the Labor Working

1161
01:15:09,970 --> 01:15:13,230
Speaker 12: Group Organizing Committee, as well as the Steering Committee for

1162
01:15:13,250 --> 01:15:14,250
Speaker 12: the entire chapter.

1163
01:15:15,170 --> 01:15:18,470
Speaker 11: Currently, anyone you see delivering packages in New York City

1164
01:15:18,750 --> 01:15:21,890
Speaker 11: to you, to your apartment building, to your house, wearing

1165
01:15:21,910 --> 01:15:24,410
Speaker 11: the Amazon vest with the Amazon truck, all of those

1166
01:15:24,470 --> 01:15:28,010
Speaker 11: people are subcontractors. They work out of what are called

1167
01:15:28,030 --> 01:15:32,670
Speaker 11: delivery service providers or DSPs. And these, again, kind of

1168
01:15:32,689 --> 01:15:35,850
Speaker 11: basic subcontractors. But the problem with that model is that

1169
01:15:36,210 --> 01:15:39,140
Speaker 11: Amazon does that to avoid all accountability either to their

1170
01:15:39,180 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 11: workers or to the city. So anytime that workers express

1171
01:15:44,140 --> 01:15:48,500
Speaker 11: dissatisfaction with the working conditions or seem like they're organizing

1172
01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:53,269
Speaker 11: because of those conditions, or if the city is noticing

1173
01:15:53,310 --> 01:15:57,050
Speaker 11: that one of these DSPs is causing way more incidents

1174
01:15:57,250 --> 01:16:00,530
Speaker 11: on the road than other providers of delivery. Anything like

1175
01:16:00,570 --> 01:16:02,979
Speaker 11: that happens and they start, people start looking into one

1176
01:16:03,020 --> 01:16:06,420
Speaker 11: of these DSPs, Amazon will just cut their contract with

1177
01:16:06,460 --> 01:16:09,500
Speaker 11: the subcontractor and say, you know, that wasn't us. That was,

1178
01:16:09,520 --> 01:16:13,500
Speaker 11: you know, Matt Maresca LLC or Garrison Davis LLC. Nothing

1179
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:15,860
Speaker 11: to do with me. You know, it sounds silly, but

1180
01:16:15,900 --> 01:16:18,419
Speaker 11: it's actually pretty strong legal defense, apparently.

1181
01:16:19,160 --> 01:16:22,990
Speaker 10: The Delivery Protection Act seeks to change all that. The

1182
01:16:23,030 --> 01:16:27,379
Speaker 10: bill would require last-mile delivery facilities to obtain a license

1183
01:16:27,460 --> 01:16:30,820
Speaker 10: from the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection and establish

1184
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:35,260
Speaker 10: minimum safety, training, and worker protection standards. But the big

1185
01:16:35,340 --> 01:16:38,680
Speaker 10: thing this bill would do is force Amazon and other

1186
01:16:38,760 --> 01:16:44,300
Speaker 10: companies that use third-party contractors to directly employ their delivery

1187
01:16:44,500 --> 01:16:48,840
Speaker 10: and warehouse workers. According to the office of Mayor Zoran Mamdani,

1188
01:16:49,340 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 10: the Delivery Protection Act would give the city the tools

1189
01:16:52,100 --> 01:16:56,540
Speaker 10: to regulate last-mile operations and ensure major companies like Amazon

1190
01:16:56,939 --> 01:17:00,550
Speaker 10: are responsible for their workers and the consequences of the

1191
01:17:00,600 --> 01:17:01,990
Speaker 10: business decisions they make.

1192
01:17:02,510 --> 01:17:05,830
Speaker 11: So what this bill does is mandate that any package

1193
01:17:05,850 --> 01:17:09,689
Speaker 11: delivery service from Amazon or another large logistical company coming

1194
01:17:09,729 --> 01:17:12,680
Speaker 11: into New York City has to directly employ its drivers.

1195
01:17:12,900 --> 01:17:15,700
Speaker 11: So that means all of these drivers now in those vests,

1196
01:17:15,860 --> 01:17:19,470
Speaker 11: in those Amazon trucks, need to be directly employed by Amazon,

1197
01:17:19,590 --> 01:17:23,490
Speaker 11: which means that Amazon is both directly responsible for any

1198
01:17:23,530 --> 01:17:25,970
Speaker 11: problems they cause on the road or their emissions or

1199
01:17:26,010 --> 01:17:28,450
Speaker 11: things like that, and also means that if their workers

1200
01:17:28,490 --> 01:17:32,090
Speaker 11: start organizing, Amazon can't just cut them all and replace

1201
01:17:32,110 --> 01:17:34,970
Speaker 11: them with different people nearly as easily. So beyond that,

1202
01:17:35,010 --> 01:17:37,090
Speaker 11: that's the main bulk of it. It also does give

1203
01:17:37,130 --> 01:17:41,540
Speaker 11: workers extra protections for expressing their organizing rights on the job.

1204
01:17:41,580 --> 01:17:43,300
Speaker 11: So it gets close to giving them what we might

1205
01:17:43,340 --> 01:17:45,700
Speaker 11: call just cause protections on the job, although it's not

1206
01:17:45,740 --> 01:17:48,300
Speaker 11: quite that strong. But that means it's much harder for

1207
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:50,460
Speaker 11: them to be fired for speaking up. And then it

1208
01:17:50,560 --> 01:17:54,960
Speaker 11: also allows for independent safety inspectors to go into these

1209
01:17:55,020 --> 01:17:58,400
Speaker 11: warehouses and provide the education needed to make sure the

1210
01:17:58,430 --> 01:18:00,400
Speaker 11: drivers are safe. And also New Yorkers are safe when

1211
01:18:00,430 --> 01:18:04,110
Speaker 11: they're delivering their packages. So it's really a holistic bill

1212
01:18:04,170 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 11: to regulate Amazon in the city. And especially make sure

1213
01:18:07,260 --> 01:18:09,729
Speaker 11: that the workers are protected and have their rights to

1214
01:18:09,780 --> 01:18:11,010
Speaker 11: organize protected.

1215
01:18:12,110 --> 01:18:16,809
Speaker 10: And that protection is really important. Because right now, if

1216
01:18:16,830 --> 01:18:19,809
Speaker 10: a delivery driver gets hurt or gets into an accident,

1217
01:18:20,310 --> 01:18:24,950
Speaker 10: because those drivers technically work for a, quote, third party,

1218
01:18:25,510 --> 01:18:30,140
Speaker 10: Amazon can't be held liable, even when it's Amazon who orders, quote,

1219
01:18:30,260 --> 01:18:35,420
Speaker 10: delivery service partners to send out drivers in dangerous weather conditions.

1220
01:18:36,260 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 10: A Bloomberg investigation from earlier this year detailed a series

1221
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:44,850
Speaker 10: of such incidents with a delivery service partner in Southern California.

1222
01:18:45,570 --> 01:18:51,480
Speaker 10: In summer of 2022, Amazon complained to the DSP that

1223
01:18:51,580 --> 01:18:56,840
Speaker 10: drivers were falling behind on their schedule while temperatures reached

1224
01:18:56,840 --> 01:19:01,929
Speaker 10: 107 degrees. The DSP manager told an Amazon rep that

1225
01:19:02,410 --> 01:19:06,610
Speaker 10: Amazon failed to apply their own policy on easing workloads

1226
01:19:06,830 --> 01:19:10,490
Speaker 10: during extreme heat and But the Amazon rep responded by

1227
01:19:10,939 --> 01:19:13,880
Speaker 10: saying it was too late to change the day's delivery assignments,

1228
01:19:14,460 --> 01:19:18,060
Speaker 10: and the manager would need a written affidavit to prove

1229
01:19:18,620 --> 01:19:22,820
Speaker 10: that workers were too sick to perform. And Amazon threatened

1230
01:19:22,880 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 10: breach of contract if packages were delayed. Later that winter,

1231
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:33,070
Speaker 10: during a historic storm, an Amazon rep told this DSP that, quote,

1232
01:19:33,590 --> 01:19:36,270
Speaker 10: delivery must be attempted despite.

1233
01:19:37,340 --> 01:19:42,260
Speaker 10: Flash flooding, road closures, and grounded flights. So drivers were

1234
01:19:42,320 --> 01:19:47,400
Speaker 10: dispatched out of fear that Amazon might terminate their DSP contract.

1235
01:19:48,000 --> 01:19:51,710
Speaker 10: But then a few months later, their contract was cut

1236
01:19:51,910 --> 01:19:56,870
Speaker 10: anyway after the workers tried to form a union. And

1237
01:19:56,930 --> 01:20:01,310
Speaker 10: this is not an isolated incident. Per Bloomberg, the Teamsters

1238
01:20:01,390 --> 01:20:04,680
Speaker 10: have filed complaints with the National Labor Relations Board and

1239
01:20:05,210 --> 01:20:10,220
Speaker 10: accusing Amazon of terminating contracts with several DSPs because the

1240
01:20:10,280 --> 01:20:15,620
Speaker 10: workers unionized. Just a few weeks before the Delivery Protection

1241
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:21,580
Speaker 10: Act was introduced last year, Amazon fired over 150 unionized

1242
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:26,250
Speaker 10: delivery drivers in Queens by cutting ties with the third-party

1243
01:20:26,310 --> 01:20:33,560
Speaker 10: delivery service partner. Even calling DSPs, quote, third-parties is misleading,

1244
01:20:33,800 --> 01:20:37,840
Speaker 10: because they don't operate as such. Everything about how they

1245
01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:43,540
Speaker 10: run is controlled by Amazon. Through a FOIA request, Bloomberg

1246
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:46,900
Speaker 10: was able to obtain thousands of pages of confidential Amazon

1247
01:20:46,939 --> 01:20:52,010
Speaker 10: records related to an NLRB case against Amazon for firing

1248
01:20:52,050 --> 01:20:56,469
Speaker 10: that DSP in California after its workers unionized. A case,

1249
01:20:56,530 --> 01:20:59,469
Speaker 10: by the way, that was settled in favor of Amazon

1250
01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:05,360
Speaker 10: after Trump appointed a former Amazon lawyer to serve as

1251
01:21:05,479 --> 01:21:10,680
Speaker 10: National Labor Relations Board General Counsel. But that's another episode.

1252
01:21:11,650 --> 01:21:17,710
Speaker 10: Per Bloomberg, these confidential company documents, quote, lay bare Amazon's

1253
01:21:17,890 --> 01:21:23,930
Speaker 10: intimate and intensive regulation of workers it insists aren't its employees,

1254
01:21:24,530 --> 01:21:28,570
Speaker 10: including governing which drivers DSPs can hire, when they work,

1255
01:21:28,990 --> 01:21:32,450
Speaker 10: what they wear, what they say, how they smell, and

1256
01:21:32,530 --> 01:21:37,540
Speaker 10: much more. Amazon requires that DSPs make drivers sign non-disclosure

1257
01:21:37,580 --> 01:21:41,700
Speaker 10: agreements and take drug tests when an Amazon rep deems appropriate.

1258
01:21:42,500 --> 01:21:46,380
Speaker 10: On the job, drivers are required to wear Amazon polos

1259
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:50,310
Speaker 10: and Amazon pants or shorts with the options of an

1260
01:21:50,410 --> 01:21:54,229
Speaker 10: Amazon hat, never to be worn backward, and an Amazon coat.

1261
01:21:55,170 --> 01:22:00,600
Speaker 10: Amazon also requires that drivers be, quote, neat and clean, including, quote,

1262
01:22:01,140 --> 01:22:06,450
Speaker 10: prevention of unpleasant breath or body odor, modest perfume slash cologne,

1263
01:22:06,890 --> 01:22:11,850
Speaker 10: and clean teeth, face slash ears, fingernails and hair, unquote.

1264
01:22:12,550 --> 01:22:16,610
Speaker 10: If Amazon isn't satisfied with a particular driver, it can, quote,

1265
01:22:16,910 --> 01:22:22,850
Speaker 10: deactivate them, unilaterally terminating their authorization to deliver its packages.

1266
01:22:23,770 --> 01:22:27,870
Speaker 10: According to company records, Amazon also formulates performance rankings of

1267
01:22:27,930 --> 01:22:33,129
Speaker 10: DSP drivers and creates leaderboards for each DSP owner, ranking

1268
01:22:33,290 --> 01:22:38,620
Speaker 10: each of their staff. Amazon's systems also use bright yellow, orange,

1269
01:22:38,780 --> 01:22:42,560
Speaker 10: or red to mark, quote, areas where a driver has

1270
01:22:42,620 --> 01:22:48,680
Speaker 10: spent excessive amounts of time. Amazon also controls AI-powered cameras

1271
01:22:48,860 --> 01:22:52,670
Speaker 10: in drivers' vans, which are supposed to flag unsafe driving.

1272
01:22:53,270 --> 01:22:56,470
Speaker 10: Drivers say, quote, the cameras can tag them with undue

1273
01:22:56,510 --> 01:23:01,990
Speaker 10: infractions for yawning or drinking water or just having breasts

1274
01:23:02,189 --> 01:23:07,729
Speaker 10: that obscure their seatbelt, unquote. And because of the high

1275
01:23:07,770 --> 01:23:12,070
Speaker 10: delivery quotas, drivers are still routinely forced to pee in

1276
01:23:12,130 --> 01:23:15,750
Speaker 10: bottles to meet their assigned deliveries. And due to these

1277
01:23:15,890 --> 01:23:20,429
Speaker 10: new AI-powered cameras, some drivers are forced to move around

1278
01:23:20,510 --> 01:23:24,820
Speaker 10: Amazon boxes to block the cameras from seeing their genitals

1279
01:23:24,939 --> 01:23:28,880
Speaker 10: before peeing. Amazon also has the live location of all

1280
01:23:28,900 --> 01:23:32,330
Speaker 10: of their drivers, and if something goes wrong, those drivers

1281
01:23:32,370 --> 01:23:37,110
Speaker 10: are supposed to call a hotline operated by Amazon, not

1282
01:23:37,130 --> 01:23:42,450
Speaker 10: the delivery service provider. Amazon offers DSPs templates for job

1283
01:23:42,490 --> 01:23:46,290
Speaker 10: listings and has to approve each new hire, who is

1284
01:23:46,470 --> 01:23:51,680
Speaker 10: then required to attend a multi-day training program also facilitated

1285
01:23:51,700 --> 01:23:56,600
Speaker 10: by by Amazon. According to these internal company documents, Amazon

1286
01:23:56,660 --> 01:24:00,850
Speaker 10: outlines seven steps drivers must follow for a successful delivery

1287
01:24:01,560 --> 01:24:06,210
Speaker 10: and instructs drivers to, quote, help validate the customer's investment

1288
01:24:06,310 --> 01:24:10,950
Speaker 10: by greeting them with a smile, being enthusiastic, and thanking

1289
01:24:10,990 --> 01:24:17,050
Speaker 10: the customer for choosing Amazon, unquote. And again, Amazon insists

1290
01:24:17,189 --> 01:24:21,490
Speaker 10: that these drivers do not, in fact, work for Amazon.

1291
01:24:22,260 --> 01:24:26,960
Speaker 10: even though Amazon tells these DSPs that these drivers, quote,

1292
01:24:27,580 --> 01:24:33,750
Speaker 10: represent Amazon to our customers. Bloomberg interviewed a dozen drivers

1293
01:24:33,790 --> 01:24:40,450
Speaker 10: from various DSPs who described these subcontractors as essentially shell

1294
01:24:40,530 --> 01:24:46,090
Speaker 10: companies that, quote, force Amazon's extreme rules, constant surveillance, and

1295
01:24:46,189 --> 01:24:50,320
Speaker 10: grueling quotas that in some urban areas can reach 30

1296
01:24:50,320 --> 01:24:54,890
Speaker 10: stops an hour. One says her DSP manager suggested a

1297
01:24:54,970 --> 01:24:57,750
Speaker 10: funnel that she could use to pee into a bottle

1298
01:24:57,850 --> 01:25:01,299
Speaker 10: in her van. Others say their managers told them they

1299
01:25:01,340 --> 01:25:05,600
Speaker 10: must precisely follow any route Amazon software lays out for them,

1300
01:25:06,300 --> 01:25:09,620
Speaker 10: even if it makes no sense, to help the algorithm learn.

1301
01:25:10,320 --> 01:25:17,170
Speaker 10: Amazon says that such characterizations are, quote, false. Algorithmic management

1302
01:25:17,410 --> 01:25:20,850
Speaker 10: is a big part of this model. how else could

1303
01:25:21,030 --> 01:25:26,110
Speaker 10: Amazon manage hundreds of thousands of drivers across thousands of

1304
01:25:26,130 --> 01:25:32,820
Speaker 10: allegedly independent subcontractors? Amazon plugs all the surveillance data from

1305
01:25:32,900 --> 01:25:37,240
Speaker 10: location tracking, delivery metrics, and live cameras into an AI

1306
01:25:37,340 --> 01:25:42,939
Speaker 10: which creates evolving minimum efficiency standards to apply to all

1307
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:47,970
Speaker 10: workers like a form of digital tailorism. Contrast that with

1308
01:25:48,630 --> 01:25:53,210
Speaker 10: the Teamsters UPS union, who, in their last contract, banned

1309
01:25:53,530 --> 01:25:59,979
Speaker 10: inward-facing surveillance cameras and prohibited UPS from disciplining drivers solely

1310
01:26:00,040 --> 01:26:05,860
Speaker 10: based on GPS data, algorithmic metrics, or surveillance technology. Meaning,

1311
01:26:06,360 --> 01:26:10,880
Speaker 10: workers can't get punished just for falling below an algorithmically

1312
01:26:11,000 --> 01:26:14,510
Speaker 10: projected quota. And if they do, they can file a grievance.

1313
01:26:15,189 --> 01:26:22,470
Speaker 10: But essentially, this subcontracted last-mile DSP model allows Amazon to

1314
01:26:22,910 --> 01:26:27,520
Speaker 10: maximize delivery speed without having to worry about the workers'

1315
01:26:27,620 --> 01:26:31,260
Speaker 10: well-being and the safety of both the drivers themselves and

1316
01:26:31,300 --> 01:26:35,599
Speaker 10: the neighborhoods on the delivery routes. Amazon gets to pass

1317
01:26:35,640 --> 01:26:41,740
Speaker 10: the buck to these, quote, third-party subcontractors. This whole last-mile

1318
01:26:41,820 --> 01:26:45,910
Speaker 10: scheme is just a method to evade accountability and for

1319
01:26:46,070 --> 01:26:49,969
Speaker 10: underpaying workers while forcing them to work at an excruciating

1320
01:26:50,030 --> 01:27:06,979
Speaker 10: pace in unsafe conditions. There are thousands of DSP subcontractors

1321
01:27:07,080 --> 01:27:10,809
Speaker 10: with hundreds of thousands of drivers who delivering your Amazon

1322
01:27:10,830 --> 01:27:14,320
Speaker 10: packages all across the country. In the past few years,

1323
01:27:14,860 --> 01:27:19,420
Speaker 10: last mile delivery facilities have rapidly expanded in New York City.

1324
01:27:20,320 --> 01:27:25,010
Speaker 10: Since 2017, 18 such facilities have opened across New York City,

1325
01:27:25,010 --> 01:27:28,990
Speaker 10: 11 of them since 2020, driven by the pandemic era

1326
01:27:29,210 --> 01:27:34,890
Speaker 10: e-commerce boom. In 2017, about 1.1 million packages were delivered

1327
01:27:35,130 --> 01:27:39,480
Speaker 10: every day in the city. By 2024, That number more

1328
01:27:39,520 --> 01:27:44,340
Speaker 10: than doubled to 2.5 million packages per day, indicating that

1329
01:27:44,640 --> 01:27:48,220
Speaker 10: nearly a third of New Yorkers receive packages on a

1330
01:27:48,300 --> 01:27:52,870
Speaker 10: daily basis. According to a report by the city controller,

1331
01:27:53,790 --> 01:27:59,950
Speaker 10: between 2022 and 2024, more than 2,000 severe workplace injuries

1332
01:28:00,110 --> 01:28:04,280
Speaker 10: at last-mile facilities were reported to OSHA. The injury rate

1333
01:28:04,439 --> 01:28:09,110
Speaker 10: at Amazon DSPs was nearly five times higher than the

1334
01:28:09,189 --> 01:28:14,710
Speaker 10: national average. And after these last mile facilities opened, surrounding

1335
01:28:14,810 --> 01:28:21,010
Speaker 10: areas saw a 137% rise in truck injury crashes. Currently,

1336
01:28:21,030 --> 01:28:26,290
Speaker 10: there are seven ongoing investigations into these third-party last mile

1337
01:28:26,330 --> 01:28:31,040
Speaker 10: facilities by the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection. According

1338
01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:34,160
Speaker 10: to the Teamsters, who have been fighting to organize Amazon

1339
01:28:34,200 --> 01:28:37,530
Speaker 10: workers in New York City for years, if the Delivery

1340
01:28:37,570 --> 01:28:40,910
Speaker 10: Protection Act gets passed, New York will would become the

1341
01:28:41,060 --> 01:28:46,460
Speaker 10: first city to outlaw this exploitative subcontractor model and require

1342
01:28:46,520 --> 01:28:51,320
Speaker 10: companies like Amazon directly employ and therefore be responsible for

1343
01:28:51,860 --> 01:28:56,590
Speaker 10: their last mile delivery workers. And this past summer, the

1344
01:28:56,689 --> 01:29:00,210
Speaker 10: NYC DSA Labor Working Group has been working with the

1345
01:29:00,270 --> 01:29:04,599
Speaker 10: Teamsters to pressure the city council into passing this bill.

1346
01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:08,840
Speaker 10: How long has the Delivery Protection Act been something that

1347
01:29:08,860 --> 01:29:11,580
Speaker 10: the organization has been focused on organizing for?

1348
01:29:12,200 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 11: So we decided it should be a priority in the spring.

1349
01:29:15,420 --> 01:29:19,420
Speaker 11: Our term on leadership started in January, and we did

1350
01:29:19,460 --> 01:29:22,599
Speaker 11: a process of looking through city and state bills that

1351
01:29:22,650 --> 01:29:24,630
Speaker 11: we wanted to work on. It really has gone to

1352
01:29:24,689 --> 01:29:27,810
Speaker 11: high gear over the summer, though. when we knew that

1353
01:29:28,030 --> 01:29:30,330
Speaker 11: our allies in the labor movement were looking to push

1354
01:29:30,390 --> 01:29:33,710
Speaker 11: this for a vote in the fall. So we really

1355
01:29:33,830 --> 01:29:37,769
Speaker 11: started our kickoff in July. And then we've been canvassing

1356
01:29:37,800 --> 01:29:41,340
Speaker 11: a bunch of different districts throughout the city since the

1357
01:29:41,360 --> 01:29:43,580
Speaker 11: start of August. And it's been going ever since.

1358
01:29:44,300 --> 01:29:44,680
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1359
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:47,500
Speaker 12: And I should just note, you know, that's when we

1360
01:29:47,540 --> 01:29:51,059
Speaker 12: kicked into high gear. But of course, Tiffany Caban, our

1361
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,390
Speaker 12: socialist in office and the city council has been working

1362
01:29:54,400 --> 01:30:00,250
Speaker 12: closely With the Amazon Teamsters and the workers, these Amazon

1363
01:30:00,270 --> 01:30:04,090
Speaker 12: locations for quite a while, and the team that helped

1364
01:30:04,110 --> 01:30:06,550
Speaker 12: draft the legislation and move it and introduce it in

1365
01:30:06,570 --> 01:30:09,130
Speaker 12: city halls, and we've been working on it for a

1366
01:30:09,370 --> 01:30:12,460
Speaker 12: lot longer. So we're building on a really strong foundation.

1367
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:16,780
Speaker 10: What has the organizing around this bill looked like on

1368
01:30:16,800 --> 01:30:20,219
Speaker 10: the ground and also in the digital sphere?

1369
01:30:21,020 --> 01:30:22,880
Speaker 11: On our end, so as the labor working group, we've

1370
01:30:22,920 --> 01:30:27,290
Speaker 11: really been focused on a large-scale canvassing operation for the bill.

1371
01:30:27,430 --> 01:30:31,500
Speaker 11: So we've been having canvases every two weeks. Started in

1372
01:30:31,580 --> 01:30:36,800
Speaker 11: a council district of Rita Joseph in Flatbush. We printed

1373
01:30:36,840 --> 01:30:39,580
Speaker 11: a lot of literature with her face on it, demanding

1374
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:42,720
Speaker 11: that she get onto the bill. And she immediately got on.

1375
01:30:42,820 --> 01:30:46,120
Speaker 11: So I have about 4,000 pieces of literature that I

1376
01:30:46,140 --> 01:30:48,000
Speaker 11: can no longer use, which is a good.

1377
01:30:47,900 --> 01:30:48,760
Speaker 2: Problem to have.

1378
01:30:49,560 --> 01:30:51,230
Speaker 11: Since then, we made new lit that doesn't have anyone's

1379
01:30:51,240 --> 01:30:53,830
Speaker 11: face on it because we've been flipping more council members.

1380
01:30:53,870 --> 01:30:58,810
Speaker 11: So we did Three rounds of canvassing for four different

1381
01:30:58,820 --> 01:31:00,570
Speaker 11: city council members who are also not on the bill.

1382
01:31:01,110 --> 01:31:04,830
Speaker 11: We're going to canvass in Speaker Julie Menden's district because

1383
01:31:05,110 --> 01:31:07,350
Speaker 11: right now we actually already have a super majority on

1384
01:31:07,390 --> 01:31:10,570
Speaker 11: the city council. So really the only thing standing in

1385
01:31:10,630 --> 01:31:13,350
Speaker 11: our way is getting the speaker to introduce it for

1386
01:31:13,390 --> 01:31:16,290
Speaker 11: a vote because she ultimately really controls what goes up

1387
01:31:16,310 --> 01:31:18,350
Speaker 11: to a vote, even if the bill already has a

1388
01:31:18,820 --> 01:31:21,520
Speaker 11: super majority. So that's the main thing we've been doing.

1389
01:31:21,580 --> 01:31:23,970
Speaker 11: But in addition to that, we've been working with a

1390
01:31:24,330 --> 01:31:28,509
Speaker 11: research team to look into the subcontractors that Amazon uses

1391
01:31:28,610 --> 01:31:32,530
Speaker 11: for these. They call them DSPs, delivery service providers, to

1392
01:31:32,600 --> 01:31:34,940
Speaker 11: get a feel for who actually owns and operates these

1393
01:31:34,979 --> 01:31:37,540
Speaker 11: and how safe they are for workers. And that's really

1394
01:31:37,560 --> 01:31:40,200
Speaker 11: been something we're working on closely with our Teamster partners.

1395
01:31:40,580 --> 01:31:42,940
Speaker 11: And we've also had a number of rallies and things

1396
01:31:43,000 --> 01:31:45,260
Speaker 11: as well at City Hall. So that's all really been

1397
01:31:45,280 --> 01:31:46,400
Speaker 11: in the last few months.

1398
01:31:47,320 --> 01:31:52,080
Speaker 10: It's not just Amazon who's using this last mile subcontractor model.

1399
01:31:52,870 --> 01:31:59,120
Speaker 10: FedEx also uses subcontractors called ground contracted service providers, and

1400
01:31:59,320 --> 01:32:01,720
Speaker 10: they too would be affected by the bill.

1401
01:32:02,400 --> 01:32:05,610
Speaker 12: Obviously, Amazon is the biggest company that would be affected

1402
01:32:05,729 --> 01:32:08,650
Speaker 12: by this, but it's not specifically targeted at Amazon. It's

1403
01:32:08,750 --> 01:32:12,010
Speaker 12: targeted at any business that is operating what's called a

1404
01:32:12,070 --> 01:32:15,929
Speaker 12: last mile delivery operation. In the city of New York.

1405
01:32:16,270 --> 01:32:19,890
Speaker 12: So there are other companies that would be affected. I believe,

1406
01:32:19,910 --> 01:32:23,809
Speaker 12: you know, Walmart also operates sometimes on this model. But,

1407
01:32:23,830 --> 01:32:26,229
Speaker 12: you know, Amazon is obviously by far the biggest. They

1408
01:32:26,250 --> 01:32:28,270
Speaker 12: have the biggest market share. So, of course, they're the

1409
01:32:28,390 --> 01:32:29,650
Speaker 12: ones who are most afraid of this.

1410
01:32:30,510 --> 01:32:34,600
Speaker 10: And afraid of it they are. As of August, Amazon

1411
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:39,200
Speaker 10: has spent at least $ 5 million lobbying against the Delivery

1412
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:44,360
Speaker 10: Protection Act. And according to DSA, that spending has only increased.

1413
01:32:44,830 --> 01:32:48,290
Speaker 12: You know, you asked about in the digital space, certainly

1414
01:32:48,370 --> 01:32:52,740
Speaker 12: our opponents have been hard at work in the digital space.

1415
01:32:53,260 --> 01:32:57,820
Speaker 12: Amazon dropped how much how much money, Matt? Like millions

1416
01:32:57,860 --> 01:32:58,459
Speaker 12: of dollars.

1417
01:32:58,600 --> 01:33:02,460
Speaker 11: It's at eight million now, I believe. Eight million dollars.

1418
01:33:02,920 --> 01:33:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1419
01:33:03,860 --> 01:33:07,920
Speaker 12: And it's not just Amazon. They got their friends in REBNY,

1420
01:33:08,100 --> 01:33:11,790
Speaker 12: the Real Estate Board of New York. to believe that

1421
01:33:11,830 --> 01:33:14,410
Speaker 12: this is also something that they should oppose. So they've

1422
01:33:14,479 --> 01:33:18,260
Speaker 12: been spending money against this, lobbying against this. And there

1423
01:33:18,300 --> 01:33:20,700
Speaker 12: are ads right now, there are digital ads, you know,

1424
01:33:20,760 --> 01:33:23,820
Speaker 12: trying to convince people that this bill is somehow going

1425
01:33:23,860 --> 01:33:29,280
Speaker 12: to be harmful to small businesses, which is ludicrous because,

1426
01:33:29,340 --> 01:33:32,280
Speaker 12: you know, Amazon is the biggest killers of small business.

1427
01:33:33,400 --> 01:33:36,380
Speaker 10: Some of that money has gone to a corporate lobbying

1428
01:33:36,420 --> 01:33:41,620
Speaker 10: group called the Five Bureau Jobs Campaign. who commissioned a

1429
01:33:41,680 --> 01:33:47,360
Speaker 10: study that miraculously concluded that the Delivery Protection Act would

1430
01:33:47,520 --> 01:33:55,200
Speaker 10: raise annual delivery costs for New York households by $ 664

1431
01:33:53,380 --> 01:33:59,090
Speaker 10: a year and threaten 10,000 city jobs. Amazon themselves told

1432
01:33:59,130 --> 01:34:02,570
Speaker 10: the city council that the Delivery Protection Act would prohibit

1433
01:34:02,610 --> 01:34:07,250
Speaker 10: their agreements with more than 40, quote, small businesses, that is,

1434
01:34:07,650 --> 01:34:14,050
Speaker 10: delivery service partners, and put over 5,000 jobs at risk. Now,

1435
01:34:14,210 --> 01:34:18,870
Speaker 10: the bill includes a retention clause requiring Amazon or whatever

1436
01:34:18,910 --> 01:34:23,430
Speaker 10: company to offer to rehire subcontracted drivers and warehouse workers

1437
01:34:23,950 --> 01:34:28,070
Speaker 10: who were previously employed through a DSP, before offering to

1438
01:34:28,110 --> 01:34:33,000
Speaker 10: hire any other workers as employees. Brendan Griffith, president of

1439
01:34:33,080 --> 01:34:37,300
Speaker 10: the New York City Central Labor Council, put it really well, quote,

1440
01:34:37,840 --> 01:34:41,460
Speaker 10: to be clear, When these companies raise the alarm of

1441
01:34:41,560 --> 01:34:46,240
Speaker 10: fewer jobs, higher prices, or service reductions, they are describing

1442
01:34:46,479 --> 01:34:50,940
Speaker 10: choices that they may make, not in the best interest

1443
01:34:51,040 --> 01:34:54,740
Speaker 10: of consumers and workers, but to protect their bottom line.

1444
01:34:55,460 --> 01:34:59,980
Speaker 10: And of course, any potential job loss would be the

1445
01:35:00,090 --> 01:35:04,800
Speaker 10: choice of Amazon, and not because of this bill. And

1446
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:09,139
Speaker 10: it's not like Amazon doesn't already regularly lay off these workers.

1447
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:14,229
Speaker 10: According to a Teamsters report, since 2018, Amazon has closed

1448
01:35:14,229 --> 01:35:18,490
Speaker 10: 35 DSPs in New York State, resulting in the loss

1449
01:35:18,550 --> 01:35:23,370
Speaker 10: of over 3,500 jobs. And that was without the bill,

1450
01:35:23,770 --> 01:35:28,389
Speaker 10: which would, of course, give those workers more protections. Remember,

1451
01:35:28,689 --> 01:35:34,389
Speaker 10: Amazon fired over 150 DSP drivers last year, in New

1452
01:35:34,430 --> 01:35:39,730
Speaker 10: York City after they unionized. The most insidious part of

1453
01:35:39,770 --> 01:35:45,990
Speaker 10: this delivery service partner subcontractor arrangement is how it allows

1454
01:35:46,220 --> 01:35:50,260
Speaker 10: Amazon to have this sort of workaround for union busting.

1455
01:35:50,939 --> 01:35:54,599
Speaker 10: When these last mile delivery workers attempt to unionize, rather

1456
01:35:54,640 --> 01:35:57,860
Speaker 10: than recognize or deal with the union, Amazon can just

1457
01:35:58,240 --> 01:36:02,470
Speaker 10: cut off the entire subcontractor, putting all those workers out

1458
01:36:02,490 --> 01:36:06,060
Speaker 10: of jobs, while Amazon can just switch to a new

1459
01:36:06,420 --> 01:36:12,930
Speaker 10: non-union subcontractor. And this is apparently legal because these workers

1460
01:36:13,250 --> 01:36:19,550
Speaker 10: aren't directly employed by Amazon. So in effect, it's illegal

1461
01:36:19,710 --> 01:36:24,389
Speaker 10: union busting without actually having to do illegal union busting.

1462
01:36:25,250 --> 01:36:28,080
Speaker 10: So you can see why this model is so attractive

1463
01:36:28,160 --> 01:36:33,340
Speaker 10: to these corporations. Because using these delivery subcontractors gives you

1464
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:38,460
Speaker 10: this little loophole to avoid negotiating with a union. And

1465
01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:41,099
Speaker 10: it's insane that they're able to get away with this.

1466
01:36:41,680 --> 01:36:44,910
Speaker 10: As much as they fearmonger about how if there's unions,

1467
01:36:45,290 --> 01:36:50,830
Speaker 10: deliveries will cost each household 600 more dollars, that doesn't

1468
01:36:51,010 --> 01:36:54,810
Speaker 10: seem to be the case for UPS, who is still

1469
01:36:54,850 --> 01:37:00,330
Speaker 10: profitable after its unionized delivery drivers secured pay raises in

1470
01:37:00,350 --> 01:37:06,200
Speaker 10: their 2023 contract. To quote the famously socialist outlet, The

1471
01:37:06,280 --> 01:37:10,960
Speaker 10: Wall Street Journal, quote, a large body of research has

1472
01:37:11,020 --> 01:37:15,300
Speaker 10: shown that when companies stop employing their own workers for

1473
01:37:15,360 --> 01:37:19,500
Speaker 10: tasks and instead push those jobs out to smaller firms

1474
01:37:19,640 --> 01:37:25,389
Speaker 10: or to freelancers, wages and other job protections tend to decline.

1475
01:37:25,930 --> 01:37:30,410
Speaker 10: The New York bill is, quote, very innovative, said Paul Osterman,

1476
01:37:30,890 --> 01:37:35,830
Speaker 10: a professor emeritus at MIT, and the author of Disposable Workers,

1477
01:37:36,479 --> 01:37:40,240
Speaker 10: a new book on the transformation of employment. His own

1478
01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:45,400
Speaker 10: surveys of work arrangements indicate about 12% of U.S. workers

1479
01:37:46,000 --> 01:37:51,880
Speaker 10: are contractors employed by intermediaries. So as I've already suggested,

1480
01:37:51,900 --> 01:37:57,630
Speaker 10: this model is a much bigger problem than just Amazon.

1481
01:37:58,770 --> 01:38:02,509
Speaker 10: Amazon has also threatened that if the Delivery Protection Act passes,

1482
01:38:03,450 --> 01:38:08,160
Speaker 10: it would force them to, quote, consider relocating delivery operations

1483
01:38:08,460 --> 01:38:13,340
Speaker 10: outside the city. Specifically, Amazon has threatened to move its

1484
01:38:13,479 --> 01:38:18,880
Speaker 10: distribution centers to New Jersey, which they say would extend

1485
01:38:18,979 --> 01:38:24,170
Speaker 10: delivery times for New York City residents. But then in August,

1486
01:38:24,810 --> 01:38:29,970
Speaker 10: New Jersey sued Amazon, alleging their use of last-mile contracts

1487
01:38:30,620 --> 01:38:34,400
Speaker 10: is illegal, with New Jersey claiming, per the Wall Street Journal, quote,

1488
01:38:34,960 --> 01:38:38,910
Speaker 10: the e-commerce giant illegally used its dominance over its package

1489
01:38:38,950 --> 01:38:43,530
Speaker 10: delivery network to suppress wages and working conditions for thousands

1490
01:38:43,630 --> 01:38:49,140
Speaker 10: of delivery drivers while preventing them from organizing. Amazon has

1491
01:38:49,200 --> 01:38:53,620
Speaker 10: said the complaint is, quote, not grounded in fact, unquote.

1492
01:38:54,500 --> 01:38:58,200
Speaker 10: So I think it's unlikely Amazon will actually move all

1493
01:38:58,240 --> 01:39:01,600
Speaker 10: of their facilities from New York City to New Jersey,

1494
01:39:01,620 --> 01:39:04,110
Speaker 10: because one, companies never actually move out of New York.

1495
01:39:04,610 --> 01:39:07,410
Speaker 10: And two, doesn't seem like they're going to have much

1496
01:39:07,550 --> 01:39:10,950
Speaker 10: more luck in New Jersey anyway, if the state is

1497
01:39:11,050 --> 01:39:15,430
Speaker 10: claiming the very same things that lawmakers have here in

1498
01:39:15,510 --> 01:39:18,750
Speaker 10: New York, which has prompted, quote, the Delivery Protection Act.

1499
01:39:19,810 --> 01:39:23,150
Speaker 10: But that's the type of propaganda that Amazon is running

1500
01:39:23,630 --> 01:39:26,630
Speaker 10: to try to push back on the bill. And we

1501
01:39:26,729 --> 01:39:31,080
Speaker 10: mentioned Amazon running ads, but they're not just running ads.

1502
01:39:31,660 --> 01:39:36,540
Speaker 10: Around July, I got sent this very oddly worded survey

1503
01:39:36,700 --> 01:39:41,760
Speaker 10: from Amazon with all these leading questions about like, would

1504
01:39:41,840 --> 01:39:45,580
Speaker 10: I support a bill that made my deliveries more expensive?

1505
01:39:46,150 --> 01:39:50,090
Speaker 10: take longer or force independent delivery drivers to work for

1506
01:39:50,130 --> 01:39:54,350
Speaker 10: big corporations. It had maybe like 10 to 15 of

1507
01:39:54,430 --> 01:39:58,360
Speaker 10: these questions that were all phrased very oddly so that

1508
01:39:58,400 --> 01:40:02,800
Speaker 10: they could engineer specific responses so that Amazon could have

1509
01:40:02,820 --> 01:40:06,180
Speaker 10: a survey that shows like X number of New Yorkers

1510
01:40:06,260 --> 01:40:08,990
Speaker 10: think this bill is a bad idea or think a

1511
01:40:09,050 --> 01:40:11,809
Speaker 10: bill that would do XYZ is a bad idea.

1512
01:40:11,830 --> 01:40:14,350
Speaker 11: You know, they've been sending those all over. People keep

1513
01:40:14,370 --> 01:40:16,800
Speaker 11: texting me. I got the survey, Matt, or sending me

1514
01:40:16,840 --> 01:40:20,100
Speaker 11: pictures of the mailers. But in reality, we're actually doing

1515
01:40:20,120 --> 01:40:22,650
Speaker 11: the work and knocking on, I think we've knocked over

1516
01:40:22,650 --> 01:40:26,490
Speaker 11: 9,000 doors now. And you actually talk to New Yorkers

1517
01:40:26,710 --> 01:40:30,110
Speaker 11: about the bill. It's extremely popular. Olivia and I have

1518
01:40:30,150 --> 01:40:33,490
Speaker 11: both done a lot of canvassing for electoral candidates, people

1519
01:40:33,530 --> 01:40:36,970
Speaker 11: like Mayor Mamdani. And it's a lot harder to go

1520
01:40:37,010 --> 01:40:39,550
Speaker 11: canvass for electoral candidates. There's a lot of people who

1521
01:40:39,570 --> 01:40:41,030
Speaker 11: tell you, get out of my face.

1522
01:40:41,510 --> 01:40:42,210
Speaker 2: But when you knock on.

1523
01:40:42,189 --> 01:40:43,950
Speaker 11: A door and say, this is a bill that's going

1524
01:40:43,979 --> 01:40:46,540
Speaker 11: to get Amazon under control, it's going to help these

1525
01:40:46,580 --> 01:40:51,500
Speaker 11: workers organize unions and protect their rights, people are immediately

1526
01:40:51,560 --> 01:40:53,800
Speaker 11: on board. Sometimes all you have to say is, this

1527
01:40:53,860 --> 01:40:56,720
Speaker 11: bill is about controlling Amazon. People are like, where do

1528
01:40:56,780 --> 01:40:59,510
Speaker 11: I sign? So New Yorkers in reality are really ready

1529
01:40:59,600 --> 01:41:03,070
Speaker 11: to find a way to rein this company in that's

1530
01:41:03,110 --> 01:41:05,269
Speaker 11: more and more controlling every aspect of their lives. So

1531
01:41:06,030 --> 01:41:10,500
Speaker 11: don't worry. The survey, notwithstanding, the bill... seems to be

1532
01:41:10,540 --> 01:41:13,429
Speaker 11: extremely popular when anyone actually learns what it does.

1533
01:41:24,800 --> 01:41:29,260
Speaker 10: Part of Amazon's fear around the Delivery Protection Act could

1534
01:41:29,280 --> 01:41:33,860
Speaker 10: also be due to the Mamdani administration's aggressive approach to

1535
01:41:33,979 --> 01:41:38,790
Speaker 10: enforcing worker protection's and cracking down on big corporations exploiting

1536
01:41:38,870 --> 01:41:43,950
Speaker 10: delivery workers. Last month, Mayor Mamdani and the Department of

1537
01:41:44,030 --> 01:41:52,040
Speaker 10: Consumer and Worker Protection announced a record $ 131. 5 million settlement

1538
01:41:52,560 --> 01:41:59,200
Speaker 10: from DoorDash for underpaying or even not paying their delivery workers.

1539
01:42:00,180 --> 01:42:04,240
Speaker 10: This is the largest labor enforcement action in New York

1540
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:11,520
Speaker 10: City history. the largest labor settlement in municipal history. Over

1541
01:42:11,520 --> 01:42:17,939
Speaker 10: $ 115 million will go directly to more than 260,000 workers

1542
01:42:18,380 --> 01:42:22,250
Speaker 10: who were denied the pay that they earned, with DoorDash

1543
01:42:22,390 --> 01:42:28,049
Speaker 10: paying an additional $ 16 million in civil penalties, including funding

1544
01:42:28,210 --> 01:42:32,830
Speaker 10: to build a city and worker-run wage theft monitoring tool

1545
01:42:33,330 --> 01:42:39,390
Speaker 10: to keep DoorDash accountable. Here's the deputy mayor for economic justice,

1546
01:42:39,689 --> 01:42:40,429
Speaker 10: Julie Su.

1547
01:42:40,870 --> 01:42:45,099
Speaker 13: DoorDash built a system that was quietly leaving out categories

1548
01:42:45,140 --> 01:42:49,120
Speaker 13: of trips and on-call time so the real amount of

1549
01:42:49,220 --> 01:42:55,059
Speaker 13: work by deliverystas wasn't counted. Worse, that practice was hidden

1550
01:42:55,120 --> 01:42:59,170
Speaker 13: from workers, making it almost impossible for them to know

1551
01:42:59,470 --> 01:43:00,630
Speaker 13: when they were underpaid.

1552
01:43:01,850 --> 01:43:04,340
Speaker 14: Some were paid late, some weren't paid at all.

1553
01:43:05,100 --> 01:43:09,200
Speaker 10: This historic settlement is not just the result of increased

1554
01:43:09,280 --> 01:43:12,479
Speaker 10: investment in the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection by

1555
01:43:12,580 --> 01:43:18,200
Speaker 10: Mayor Mamdani, but also the tireless work of deliveristas, advocates,

1556
01:43:18,520 --> 01:43:24,450
Speaker 10: and organizers at the Workers' Justice Project. Affected DoorDash workers

1557
01:43:25,090 --> 01:43:28,950
Speaker 10: don't even have to file a claim. The Department of

1558
01:43:29,070 --> 01:43:34,410
Speaker 10: Consumer and Worker Protection has already identified all individuals owed

1559
01:43:34,490 --> 01:43:39,010
Speaker 10: money through their analysis of DoorDash's records, and will reach

1560
01:43:39,070 --> 01:43:42,880
Speaker 10: out to workers later this month. The department poured through

1561
01:43:43,020 --> 01:43:47,160
Speaker 10: terabytes of pay data to discover the huge magnitude of

1562
01:43:47,220 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 10: wage theft and systemic violations of New York City's delivery

1563
01:43:51,220 --> 01:43:53,840
Speaker 10: worker laws, like the minimum pay rate.

1564
01:43:54,660 --> 01:43:58,460
Speaker 9: Now, two months ago, Tony Hsu, the CEO of DoorDash,

1565
01:43:58,880 --> 01:44:02,400
Speaker 9: gave business owners a piece of advice. A CEO, he said,

1566
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 9: has to take the greedy algorithm and keep going all

1567
01:44:07,220 --> 01:44:10,820
Speaker 9: the way to see if there is more. In computer science,

1568
01:44:10,880 --> 01:44:14,080
Speaker 9: a greedy algorithm is one that makes the most optimized,

1569
01:44:14,620 --> 01:44:19,610
Speaker 9: best short-term outcome choice at every step and never weighs

1570
01:44:19,830 --> 01:44:23,950
Speaker 9: the consequences. New York City and the tens of thousands

1571
01:44:23,990 --> 01:44:26,750
Speaker 9: of delivery workers who call our city home have reckoned

1572
01:44:26,790 --> 01:44:29,620
Speaker 9: with greed as a business model for far too long.

1573
01:44:30,570 --> 01:44:34,420
Speaker 9: For years, DoorDash failed to count every hour worked by

1574
01:44:34,460 --> 01:44:37,760
Speaker 9: delivery workers. This was not a rounding error or an

1575
01:44:37,939 --> 01:44:42,700
Speaker 9: accidental mistake. In 2023, when the city began enforcing a

1576
01:44:42,780 --> 01:44:47,220
Speaker 9: minimum pay rate for delivery workers, DoorDash left time out

1577
01:44:47,240 --> 01:44:50,960
Speaker 9: of the count. Time on canceled trips and trips that

1578
01:44:51,020 --> 01:44:55,800
Speaker 9: crossed city limits. Investigators at our incredible Department of Consumer

1579
01:44:55,820 --> 01:44:59,860
Speaker 9: and Worker Protection went through terabytes of DoorDash's own data.

1580
01:45:00,890 --> 01:45:07,470
Speaker 9: After analyzing 152 million payments and 110 million hours of work,

1581
01:45:08,070 --> 01:45:13,229
Speaker 9: they arrived at a staggering conclusion. DoorDash had underpaid more

1582
01:45:13,270 --> 01:45:18,900
Speaker 9: than 260,000 delivery workers across New York City between April

1583
01:45:18,979 --> 01:45:23,100
Speaker 9: of 2022 and June of 2026.

1584
01:45:23,540 --> 01:45:27,880
Speaker 10: According to the mayor's office, these workers will receive compensation

1585
01:45:27,960 --> 01:45:34,189
Speaker 10: calculated at approximately... 200% of the amount that they were underpaid.

1586
01:45:35,100 --> 01:45:38,860
Speaker 10: Just last year, DoorDash spent over a million dollars to

1587
01:45:38,900 --> 01:45:43,340
Speaker 10: prevent Mamdani from being elected, and now they must pay

1588
01:45:43,620 --> 01:45:51,850
Speaker 10: over $ 131 million. After Mayor Mamdani announced this settlement, DoorDash

1589
01:45:52,030 --> 01:45:58,670
Speaker 10: took to social media to post a Notes app-style apology, reading, quote,

1590
01:45:59,530 --> 01:46:04,750
Speaker 10: We messed up. Our mistakes meant some NYC dashers were

1591
01:46:04,870 --> 01:46:09,980
Speaker 10: underpaid or paid late. That's unacceptable, and we're deeply sorry

1592
01:46:10,040 --> 01:46:13,919
Speaker 10: to the dashers we let down. We've reached a settlement

1593
01:46:13,960 --> 01:46:16,019
Speaker 10: with the city of New York, and we will make

1594
01:46:16,080 --> 01:46:20,340
Speaker 10: this right by paying every impacted dasher the amounts they

1595
01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:20,940
Speaker 10: are owed.

1596
01:46:21,240 --> 01:46:21,860
Speaker 2: Unquote.

1597
01:46:22,490 --> 01:46:27,530
Speaker 10: Bitch, you stole over a hundred million dollars. That's a

1598
01:46:27,630 --> 01:46:34,500
Speaker 10: big oopsie. You didn't just let some dashers down. Per

1599
01:46:34,660 --> 01:46:39,940
Speaker 10: the mayor's office, quote, this enforcement action builds on the

1600
01:46:39,979 --> 01:46:45,570
Speaker 10: Mamdani administration's broader effort to vigorously enforce the laws that

1601
01:46:45,630 --> 01:46:50,189
Speaker 10: protect delivery workers. The administration has already secured more than

1602
01:46:50,189 --> 01:46:54,339
Speaker 10: $ 104 million in additional tips by cracking down on deceptive

1603
01:46:54,500 --> 01:47:01,460
Speaker 10: app design. and $ 725 million in increased wages for delivery

1604
01:47:01,500 --> 01:47:08,440
Speaker 10: workers since January, unquote. Mayor Mamdani ended the DoorDash announcement

1605
01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:11,500
Speaker 10: with a warning to other companies.

1606
01:47:12,120 --> 01:47:14,750
Speaker 9: And to any corporation that has built a business model

1607
01:47:15,150 --> 01:47:19,830
Speaker 9: on greedy algorithms and worker exploitation, consider this your notice.

1608
01:47:20,550 --> 01:47:23,410
Speaker 9: If you keep trying to rip off New Yorkers, we

1609
01:47:23,450 --> 01:47:26,600
Speaker 9: will be happy to make history again. This is New

1610
01:47:26,640 --> 01:47:30,680
Speaker 9: York City, where hard work pays and greed will cost you.

1611
01:47:31,240 --> 01:47:31,540
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1612
01:47:32,740 --> 01:47:37,960
Speaker 10: About a month earlier, on August 10th, Mehramdani publicly backed

1613
01:47:38,040 --> 01:47:42,160
Speaker 10: the Delivery Protection Act and made a slick little video

1614
01:47:42,220 --> 01:47:45,380
Speaker 10: explaining what it is and why it's important for workers.

1615
01:47:46,340 --> 01:47:47,440
Speaker 2: To quote the mayor.

1616
01:47:47,560 --> 01:47:52,950
Speaker 10: Quote, corporations like Amazon build billion-dollar business models that by

1617
01:47:53,110 --> 01:47:58,040
Speaker 10: insulating themselves from accountability through a system of exploitative subcontracting.

1618
01:47:58,840 --> 01:48:01,600
Speaker 10: As last mile delivery centers have exploded across New York,

1619
01:48:02,140 --> 01:48:06,400
Speaker 10: so too have traffic accidents and worker injuries. The Delivery

1620
01:48:06,439 --> 01:48:10,540
Speaker 10: Protection Act is a common sense regulation that protects delivery workers,

1621
01:48:10,700 --> 01:48:14,550
Speaker 10: safeguards the communities where these facilities operate, and ensures that

1622
01:48:14,610 --> 01:48:19,090
Speaker 10: the corporations benefiting from workers' labor are responsible for the

1623
01:48:19,130 --> 01:48:23,400
Speaker 10: consequences of of their business practices. New Yorkers should not

1624
01:48:23,439 --> 01:48:27,189
Speaker 10: be forced to subsidize corporate profits with less safe streets

1625
01:48:27,630 --> 01:48:31,469
Speaker 10: and more precarious jobs. The people that make these companies

1626
01:48:31,570 --> 01:48:36,250
Speaker 10: run deserve dignity, stability, and a safe workplace. It's time

1627
01:48:36,330 --> 01:48:40,170
Speaker 10: to end the subcontracting model that puts profits over people

1628
01:48:40,189 --> 01:48:44,110
Speaker 10: and build an economy that works for working New Yorkers.

1629
01:48:44,670 --> 01:48:47,250
Speaker 12: One of the best things we've had is we've had

1630
01:48:47,270 --> 01:48:51,089
Speaker 12: the support of the mayor. Mayor Zahra Mamdani and Deputy

1631
01:48:51,110 --> 01:48:55,300
Speaker 12: Mayor Julie Hsu come out really strongly in favor of

1632
01:48:55,360 --> 01:48:58,620
Speaker 12: the bill. There was like amazing press about that.

1633
01:48:58,660 --> 01:49:00,220
Speaker 1: So a lot of earned media around that.

1634
01:49:00,760 --> 01:49:04,100
Speaker 12: And a lot of our coalition members have also been

1635
01:49:04,140 --> 01:49:07,570
Speaker 12: hard at work doing a lot of additional research putting

1636
01:49:07,610 --> 01:49:10,769
Speaker 12: out really amazing press. In fact, just this week, there

1637
01:49:10,790 --> 01:49:13,570
Speaker 12: was a wonderful story that featured the work of our

1638
01:49:14,010 --> 01:49:18,390
Speaker 12: friends in Align. They did some really great research locating

1639
01:49:18,410 --> 01:49:21,979
Speaker 12: like all of the different traffic violations and parking violations

1640
01:49:22,500 --> 01:49:26,340
Speaker 12: Amazon has incurred. Because this bill isn't just a worker

1641
01:49:26,400 --> 01:49:29,580
Speaker 12: safety bill. This is a street safety bill and a

1642
01:49:29,660 --> 01:49:34,080
Speaker 12: climate bill. You know, Our SIO, Tiffany, loves to talk

1643
01:49:34,140 --> 01:49:38,980
Speaker 12: about how this last mile delivery sector is kind of

1644
01:49:39,000 --> 01:49:40,219
Speaker 12: like the Wild West.

1645
01:49:40,300 --> 01:49:41,719
Speaker 2: It's just exploded.

1646
01:49:42,560 --> 01:49:44,849
Speaker 12: And there really isn't a whole lot of rules of

1647
01:49:44,860 --> 01:49:47,790
Speaker 12: the road, of guidelines, of regulation. And so they're just

1648
01:49:47,890 --> 01:49:52,010
Speaker 12: kind of running roughshod. And this really uses the power

1649
01:49:52,229 --> 01:49:57,310
Speaker 12: of the city municipal legislation to really regulate in a

1650
01:49:57,350 --> 01:50:01,400
Speaker 12: very sensible way how these businesses should operate. for the

1651
01:50:01,420 --> 01:50:04,940
Speaker 12: safety of workers, for the safety of consumers, and for

1652
01:50:04,960 --> 01:50:06,320
Speaker 12: everybody out on the streets of the city.

1653
01:50:07,300 --> 01:50:11,700
Speaker 10: As Matt from DSA mentioned earlier this episode, after sending

1654
01:50:11,760 --> 01:50:15,240
Speaker 10: over 100 letters and knocking on thousands of doors, City

1655
01:50:15,260 --> 01:50:20,219
Speaker 10: Councilmember Rita Joseph in Flatbush almost immediately flipped and signed

1656
01:50:20,380 --> 01:50:23,320
Speaker 10: on to the bill this past August. But she's not

1657
01:50:23,350 --> 01:50:26,870
Speaker 10: the only one who's changed tune since DSA and the

1658
01:50:26,910 --> 01:50:29,810
Speaker 10: Teamsters upped their organizing this summer.

1659
01:50:30,250 --> 01:50:32,850
Speaker 11: We've had a big influence since we started the canvassing operation.

1660
01:50:33,050 --> 01:50:35,650
Speaker 11: I think in New York politics at this point, people

1661
01:50:35,689 --> 01:50:37,850
Speaker 11: know what it means when a bunch of people with

1662
01:50:37,870 --> 01:50:40,660
Speaker 11: DSA signs start showing up in your neighborhood and knocking doors.

1663
01:50:40,780 --> 01:50:43,680
Speaker 11: People get very freaked out very quickly, which is good

1664
01:50:43,860 --> 01:50:47,519
Speaker 11: for us. So like I said, when we knocked Rita

1665
01:50:47,560 --> 01:50:51,060
Speaker 11: Joseph's door, she decided to get onto the bill right away.

1666
01:50:51,090 --> 01:50:55,889
Speaker 11: We also then got another council member named Sean O'Gray

1667
01:50:56,110 --> 01:50:58,250
Speaker 11: to flip onto the bill as well, I think the

1668
01:50:58,290 --> 01:51:01,660
Speaker 11: same day. It was also right around when Mayor Mondani

1669
01:51:01,700 --> 01:51:03,929
Speaker 11: put his video out. So I'm sure for a lot

1670
01:51:03,939 --> 01:51:05,990
Speaker 11: of council members, it was really time to get on

1671
01:51:06,050 --> 01:51:10,110
Speaker 11: board time between us and the mayor. But then since then,

1672
01:51:10,130 --> 01:51:13,750
Speaker 11: we also were able to move council member Camilla Hanks

1673
01:51:14,570 --> 01:51:16,310
Speaker 11: onto the bill as well. And she's really important to

1674
01:51:16,350 --> 01:51:19,440
Speaker 11: get on because her district is actually on Staten Island

1675
01:51:19,960 --> 01:51:22,180
Speaker 11: and overlaps a lot of the Amazon organizing going on

1676
01:51:22,200 --> 01:51:24,160
Speaker 11: there that goes all the way back to the Amazon district.

1677
01:51:24,520 --> 01:51:27,270
Speaker 11: labor union and the ALU. So it was really important

1678
01:51:27,290 --> 01:51:29,330
Speaker 11: for us to make sure that Staten Island was part

1679
01:51:29,370 --> 01:51:31,190
Speaker 11: of our plans because those workers have been in the

1680
01:51:31,229 --> 01:51:34,229
Speaker 11: Amazon fight longer than anyone. And we're really proud of

1681
01:51:34,270 --> 01:51:36,070
Speaker 11: that one as well. So in total, in the last

1682
01:51:36,670 --> 01:51:38,510
Speaker 11: two and a half months, we flipped three people onto

1683
01:51:38,530 --> 01:51:41,810
Speaker 11: the bill. And we've also really developed a kind of

1684
01:51:41,890 --> 01:51:44,990
Speaker 11: citywide feeling that this bill is very, very important for workers' rights.

1685
01:51:45,070 --> 01:51:47,310
Speaker 11: And we really see more and more people talking about

1686
01:51:47,350 --> 01:51:48,930
Speaker 11: it now. And I think that that has a lot

1687
01:51:48,950 --> 01:51:50,530
Speaker 11: to do with the publicity we've given it over the

1688
01:51:50,550 --> 01:51:53,599
Speaker 11: last couple months. So You know, again, we already have

1689
01:51:53,620 --> 01:51:57,439
Speaker 11: a supermajority. Now it's really just all about getting Speaker

1690
01:51:57,479 --> 01:51:59,340
Speaker 11: Menon to actually put it for a vote. And if

1691
01:51:59,380 --> 01:52:02,010
Speaker 11: she does, we're extremely confident that it will pass.

1692
01:52:02,810 --> 01:52:06,309
Speaker 10: With a supermajority in city council, now the pressure is

1693
01:52:06,430 --> 01:52:09,250
Speaker 10: on Speaker Julie Menon to call the bill to a vote.

1694
01:52:09,950 --> 01:52:14,010
Speaker 10: Last Saturday, DSA canvassed Speaker Menon's district in the Upper

1695
01:52:14,090 --> 01:52:18,210
Speaker 10: East Side, and they plan to do another neighborhood canvas

1696
01:52:18,450 --> 01:52:19,410
Speaker 10: sometime next week.

1697
01:52:19,729 --> 01:52:22,860
Speaker 11: We want to get the bill passed. on November 12th.

1698
01:52:23,060 --> 01:52:25,690
Speaker 11: So that's the new deadline. So we're going to be

1699
01:52:25,700 --> 01:52:28,030
Speaker 11: doing more canvassing, hopefully having more rallies.

1700
01:52:28,850 --> 01:52:32,469
Speaker 10: DSA also has an online tool to help you send

1701
01:52:32,590 --> 01:52:36,710
Speaker 10: your city council member or Speaker Menon a letter expressing

1702
01:52:36,750 --> 01:52:39,630
Speaker 10: your support for the Delivery Protection Act.

1703
01:52:40,090 --> 01:52:41,809
Speaker 11: You can send a letter to your council member or

1704
01:52:41,850 --> 01:52:44,139
Speaker 11: to Speaker Menon. I think sending it to Speaker Menon

1705
01:52:44,150 --> 01:52:46,059
Speaker 11: at this point is the most important thing. So anyone

1706
01:52:46,100 --> 01:52:49,340
Speaker 11: who's a New York listener should definitely do that.

1707
01:52:50,040 --> 01:52:54,090
Speaker 10: In terms of rallies, DSA is planning a big last

1708
01:52:54,170 --> 01:52:58,350
Speaker 10: hurrah in support of this bill outside City Hall on

1709
01:52:58,550 --> 01:53:02,650
Speaker 10: October 22nd, which will be the last city council meeting

1710
01:53:02,770 --> 01:53:06,730
Speaker 10: before November when organizers intend for the bill to be

1711
01:53:06,850 --> 01:53:07,849
Speaker 10: brought to a vote.

1712
01:53:08,450 --> 01:53:11,139
Speaker 12: So we're going to have a big showing right outside

1713
01:53:11,160 --> 01:53:15,639
Speaker 12: City Hall on October 22nd to really demonstrate our power.

1714
01:53:16,520 --> 01:53:19,380
Speaker 12: and really put out the call out there for this

1715
01:53:19,420 --> 01:53:23,220
Speaker 12: bill to be agendized and brought to the floor for

1716
01:53:23,240 --> 01:53:25,019
Speaker 12: a vote on November 12th.

1717
01:53:25,500 --> 01:53:27,920
Speaker 11: Yeah, so if anyone wants to come out and canvas

1718
01:53:28,000 --> 01:53:31,140
Speaker 11: or come to a rally, this is really the final push,

1719
01:53:31,320 --> 01:53:34,500
Speaker 11: and we're feeling pretty confident that we need to end strong.

1720
01:53:35,700 --> 01:53:39,380
Speaker 10: The Delivery Protection Act could be the wedge that cracks

1721
01:53:39,620 --> 01:53:44,179
Speaker 10: open Amazon. By strengthening workers' ability to organize through closing

1722
01:53:44,240 --> 01:53:49,760
Speaker 10: the illegal union-busting loophole, and ensuring that corporations like Amazon

1723
01:53:49,820 --> 01:53:53,620
Speaker 10: or FedEx can no longer get away with using third-party

1724
01:53:53,680 --> 01:53:58,740
Speaker 10: shell companies to shield themselves from liability. Samuel Levin, the

1725
01:53:58,780 --> 01:54:02,300
Speaker 10: commissioner of the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection, put

1726
01:54:02,320 --> 01:54:07,070
Speaker 10: it plainly, quote, The Delivery Protection Act affirms a simple idea.

1727
01:54:07,689 --> 01:54:10,810
Speaker 10: Those who profit from our labor and public spaces are

1728
01:54:11,250 --> 01:54:14,850
Speaker 10: must also be responsible for the people and communities that

1729
01:54:14,950 --> 01:54:21,030
Speaker 10: make it possible, unquote. Chipping away at Amazon's vast network

1730
01:54:21,189 --> 01:54:26,630
Speaker 10: of delivery subcontractors could also have national ramifications. If the

1731
01:54:26,650 --> 01:54:29,670
Speaker 10: Delivery Protection Act passes in New York City, it could

1732
01:54:29,710 --> 01:54:33,170
Speaker 10: provide a template for other cities across the country to

1733
01:54:33,230 --> 01:54:37,250
Speaker 10: start to regulate Amazon to protect last mile delivery workers

1734
01:54:37,270 --> 01:54:43,050
Speaker 10: and and shut down the hyper-exploitative subcontractor model dominating huge

1735
01:54:43,240 --> 01:54:47,010
Speaker 10: sectors of our economy. And if we succeed here in

1736
01:54:47,050 --> 01:54:50,210
Speaker 10: New York, surely it can be done elsewhere.

1737
01:54:50,230 --> 01:54:52,910
Speaker 11: In New York State DSA, we really feel strongly that

1738
01:54:52,950 --> 01:54:56,970
Speaker 11: taking on Amazon is a really important existential battle for

1739
01:54:57,350 --> 01:55:00,210
Speaker 11: socialists and the labor movement. So we see this as

1740
01:55:00,230 --> 01:55:03,650
Speaker 11: really the first step in using the power we have

1741
01:55:03,670 --> 01:55:07,490
Speaker 11: in canvassing and the electoral arena, but also our ability

1742
01:55:07,510 --> 01:55:10,510
Speaker 11: to mass mobilize people to figure out a way to

1743
01:55:10,590 --> 01:55:13,680
Speaker 11: rein Amazon in and really help the labor movement take

1744
01:55:13,690 --> 01:55:17,820
Speaker 11: it on because it's more and more infiltrating every sector

1745
01:55:17,840 --> 01:55:20,420
Speaker 11: of the economy. They're going into entertainment. They are also

1746
01:55:20,480 --> 01:55:25,560
Speaker 11: going into groceries. They're going into web technologies and AI.

1747
01:55:25,620 --> 01:55:28,140
Speaker 11: They're really everywhere. Set to be the first company to

1748
01:55:28,160 --> 01:55:30,820
Speaker 11: make a trillion dollars in profit. And if we're going

1749
01:55:30,840 --> 01:55:34,620
Speaker 11: to have a socialist future in New York and in America,

1750
01:55:34,640 --> 01:55:38,710
Speaker 11: really anywhere, we need to be Amazon and get it

1751
01:55:38,790 --> 01:55:40,750
Speaker 11: organized in the same way that they had to organize

1752
01:55:41,250 --> 01:55:44,810
Speaker 11: steel or the auto industry in the 30s. The fight

1753
01:55:44,870 --> 01:55:47,250
Speaker 11: now really does have to go through Amazon if we're

1754
01:55:47,270 --> 01:55:49,670
Speaker 11: going to see the socialist future we're all fighting for.

1755
01:55:49,690 --> 01:55:52,480
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1756
01:55:52,810 --> 01:55:55,460
Speaker 12: And I would just add, you know, for me especially,

1757
01:55:55,480 --> 01:55:58,640
Speaker 12: and I think for a lot of DSA members, what

1758
01:55:58,680 --> 01:56:01,740
Speaker 12: makes the DSA difference isn't just, you know, that we

1759
01:56:01,920 --> 01:56:05,270
Speaker 12: are taking on a big corporation and the way that

1760
01:56:05,280 --> 01:56:09,810
Speaker 12: the legislation really empowers workers. It's how we campaign.

1761
01:56:09,930 --> 01:56:12,210
Speaker 5: It's literally the way in which we fight.

1762
01:56:12,810 --> 01:56:15,350
Speaker 12: We are doing it, as Matt said, using all of

1763
01:56:15,390 --> 01:56:18,070
Speaker 12: the same tools that helped us win the mayoralty and

1764
01:56:18,110 --> 01:56:21,970
Speaker 12: helped us win big in recent primaries. It's just literally

1765
01:56:22,030 --> 01:56:25,530
Speaker 12: the basics of organizing. We are just talking to people.

1766
01:56:26,190 --> 01:56:29,700
Speaker 12: And lo and behold, as Matt said, none of them

1767
01:56:29,740 --> 01:56:32,690
Speaker 12: like Amazon. They want it to be regulated. You know,

1768
01:56:32,710 --> 01:56:35,970
Speaker 12: that is the DSA difference. We organize people. We have

1769
01:56:36,490 --> 01:56:40,350
Speaker 12: member-led and worker-led campaigns. That is transformative.

1770
01:56:41,110 --> 01:56:43,950
Speaker 10: To keep up with the Delivery Protection Act, you can

1771
01:56:44,010 --> 01:56:50,510
Speaker 10: follow NYC DSA on Instagram or NYC DSA Labor. As mentioned,

1772
01:56:50,670 --> 01:56:54,370
Speaker 10: there will be a canvas in Julie Menon's district sometime

1773
01:56:54,430 --> 01:56:59,430
Speaker 10: next week and a, hopefully, final rally on October 22nd.

1774
01:57:11,020 --> 01:57:13,420
Speaker 14: Hello, everyone, and welcome to It Could Happen Here. My

1775
01:57:13,440 --> 01:57:16,410
Speaker 14: name is Dana Al-Kurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of

1776
01:57:16,450 --> 01:57:20,210
Speaker 14: Arab and Palestinian politics. Today, I'm talking with Yara Asi,

1777
01:57:20,310 --> 01:57:23,370
Speaker 14: who is a Palestinian scholar, author, and public health researcher

1778
01:57:23,910 --> 01:57:27,290
Speaker 14: studying how conflict, structural violence, and political systems shape health

1779
01:57:27,330 --> 01:57:30,600
Speaker 14: and human security. And she's also a non-resident fellow at

1780
01:57:30,620 --> 01:57:34,110
Speaker 14: the Arab Center Washington, where I'm also a non-resident fellow.

1781
01:57:34,430 --> 01:57:36,690
Speaker 14: And she's been doing a lot of excellent work highlighting

1782
01:57:36,750 --> 01:57:40,730
Speaker 14: the health impacts of Israeli policies and American policies in

1783
01:57:40,750 --> 01:57:43,770
Speaker 14: the Middle East generally, but also particularly in Israel-Palestine. So

1784
01:57:43,790 --> 01:57:46,419
Speaker 14: today we're going to talk about what are the health

1785
01:57:46,460 --> 01:57:49,140
Speaker 14: conditions in Gaza? I think that we have seen a

1786
01:57:49,280 --> 01:57:53,140
Speaker 14: lot of the spectacular violence. We understand and even the

1787
01:57:53,180 --> 01:57:57,160
Speaker 14: most unaware understand the degree to which Gaza has been devastated.

1788
01:57:57,630 --> 01:57:59,350
Speaker 14: But she breaks down for us what that looks like

1789
01:57:59,410 --> 01:58:01,960
Speaker 14: and what are the policies that are being used to

1790
01:58:02,460 --> 01:58:05,160
Speaker 14: attack Palestinian health in Gaza and in the West Bank

1791
01:58:05,620 --> 01:58:10,340
Speaker 14: and then what it means for the Palestinian people. to

1792
01:58:10,380 --> 01:58:14,890
Speaker 14: be so de-developed, not only economically, but at every sector,

1793
01:58:14,930 --> 01:58:19,030
Speaker 14: including the health sector. It's a very bleak episode. None

1794
01:58:19,050 --> 01:58:22,710
Speaker 14: of my episodes are good, but this one is particularly

1795
01:58:23,150 --> 01:58:26,730
Speaker 14: hard to listen to. There's also a mention of sexual violence.

1796
01:58:27,270 --> 01:58:29,220
Speaker 14: Not in detail, of course, but I do want to

1797
01:58:29,260 --> 01:58:32,580
Speaker 14: just put that out there for listeners as fair warning,

1798
01:58:33,000 --> 01:58:36,560
Speaker 14: because that is a very triggering conversation, regardless even if

1799
01:58:36,640 --> 01:58:40,760
Speaker 14: it is at the simplest level of detail. But without

1800
01:58:40,800 --> 01:58:45,810
Speaker 14: further ado, this is Yara about... health impacts of Israeli

1801
01:58:45,840 --> 01:58:47,300
Speaker 14: policy on the Palestinian people.

1802
01:58:47,760 --> 01:58:48,400
Speaker 6: Thank you for listening.

1803
01:58:51,500 --> 01:58:53,320
Speaker 14: Yoda, thank you so much for being on the show.

1804
01:58:54,240 --> 01:58:55,100
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

1805
01:58:55,520 --> 01:58:57,300
Speaker 14: So I want to start, we're going to talk both

1806
01:58:57,360 --> 01:58:59,480
Speaker 14: about Gaza and the West Bank, but I want to

1807
01:58:59,500 --> 01:59:02,580
Speaker 14: start with Gaza at the beginning here. Could you give

1808
01:59:02,640 --> 01:59:05,260
Speaker 14: us a rundown of what health conditions are like in

1809
01:59:05,300 --> 01:59:06,060
Speaker 14: Gaza right now?

1810
01:59:06,590 --> 01:59:07,430
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.

1811
01:59:07,470 --> 01:59:09,330
Speaker 15: You know, this has been obviously the focus of a

1812
01:59:09,390 --> 01:59:12,310
Speaker 15: lot of health research over the past three years since

1813
01:59:12,330 --> 01:59:14,790
Speaker 15: the beginning of the genocide. And for good reason, because

1814
01:59:14,850 --> 01:59:18,330
Speaker 15: it's kind of a microcosm of every possible public health

1815
01:59:19,010 --> 01:59:23,190
Speaker 15: disaster you could imagine in a single, very small, very

1816
01:59:23,250 --> 01:59:27,640
Speaker 15: populated setting. So just, you know, some some top line numbers.

1817
01:59:27,690 --> 01:59:31,720
Speaker 15: We know that at the very least, 74,000 Palestinians have

1818
01:59:31,780 --> 01:59:36,910
Speaker 15: been killed since October 7th. And epidemiological projections estimate that

1819
01:59:36,930 --> 01:59:40,230
Speaker 15: the number is likely much higher, especially when you add

1820
01:59:40,250 --> 01:59:44,680
Speaker 15: in all of those that have died from starvation, malnutrition

1821
01:59:45,280 --> 01:59:47,760
Speaker 15: or lack of access to health care because they had

1822
01:59:47,840 --> 01:59:51,680
Speaker 15: cancer or they needed a heart surgery or brain surgery

1823
01:59:51,720 --> 01:59:56,610
Speaker 15: or something. We know that at least 20,000, around 20,000

1824
01:59:56,610 --> 02:00:00,230
Speaker 15: people in Gaza, many of whom are children, require immediate

1825
02:00:00,270 --> 02:00:03,070
Speaker 15: medical evacuations for some sort of procedure.

1826
02:00:03,600 --> 02:00:05,330
Speaker 1: Unrelated typically to trauma.

1827
02:00:05,350 --> 02:00:09,170
Speaker 15: We're talking a lot of cancer cases, high-risk pregnancies, complex

1828
02:00:09,210 --> 02:00:11,530
Speaker 15: surgeries that they can no longer get in the Gaza

1829
02:00:11,550 --> 02:00:16,010
Speaker 15: Strip because the healthcare system has been essentially decimated. As

1830
02:00:16,090 --> 02:00:20,220
Speaker 15: of this past month, there's also more than 100,000 injuries.

1831
02:00:20,300 --> 02:00:26,220
Speaker 15: Many of those are life-changing injuries, amputations, nerve damage, spinal damage,

1832
02:00:26,280 --> 02:00:31,160
Speaker 15: brain damage that will require lifelong rehabilitation. And the obvious

1833
02:00:31,220 --> 02:00:33,990
Speaker 15: question is, Who's going to do that and who's going

1834
02:00:34,030 --> 02:00:36,110
Speaker 15: to pay for that and what's going to happen to

1835
02:00:36,150 --> 02:00:40,510
Speaker 15: those people? Less than half of Gaza's hospitals are even

1836
02:00:40,590 --> 02:00:44,720
Speaker 15: partially functioning. So prior to the genocide, Gaza had about

1837
02:00:44,720 --> 02:00:48,780
Speaker 15: 36 hospitals, many of which offered a variety of services,

1838
02:00:48,840 --> 02:00:52,340
Speaker 15: but some of which were specialized, you know, cancer care,

1839
02:00:52,600 --> 02:00:56,420
Speaker 15: pediatric hospital. Now we're at a point where the hospitals

1840
02:00:56,480 --> 02:00:59,720
Speaker 15: that are even still open because so many were damaged,

1841
02:00:59,860 --> 02:01:03,770
Speaker 15: destroyed or just have no resources. are just basically able

1842
02:01:03,810 --> 02:01:09,190
Speaker 15: to do basic care, emergency care, triage, basic wound management.

1843
02:01:09,710 --> 02:01:13,750
Speaker 15: Israel is still restricting at the border medical supplies, you know,

1844
02:01:13,930 --> 02:01:18,780
Speaker 15: basic pharmaceuticals, medications, things that would be available in basically

1845
02:01:18,860 --> 02:01:22,160
Speaker 15: any other context on earth, even in low-income countries, are

1846
02:01:22,200 --> 02:01:25,640
Speaker 15: not available in the Gaza Strip. We know that 1,700

1847
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:28,510
Speaker 15: health workers and humanitarian workers have been killed in Gaza.

1848
02:01:29,020 --> 02:01:31,680
Speaker 15: many of whom were directly targeted, either in their homes

1849
02:01:31,780 --> 02:01:36,140
Speaker 15: or in aid convoys. And, you know, it's an environmental disaster.

1850
02:01:36,260 --> 02:01:39,300
Speaker 15: So there's sewage in the streets. There's lack of clean water.

1851
02:01:39,380 --> 02:01:40,720
Speaker 5: There's... Rats.

1852
02:01:41,140 --> 02:01:43,220
Speaker 1: Rats, yes. Fighting people in their tents.

1853
02:01:43,850 --> 02:01:46,330
Speaker 15: God knows what floating in the air that people are

1854
02:01:46,370 --> 02:01:50,470
Speaker 15: inhaling on a daily basis, including babies and children. So

1855
02:01:50,790 --> 02:01:53,930
Speaker 15: it is just as bad as we imagine. And, you know,

1856
02:01:54,210 --> 02:01:57,630
Speaker 15: we're about, what, a year now from this quote-unquote ceasefire situation.

1857
02:01:58,310 --> 02:02:02,030
Speaker 15: More than 1,400 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed since the,

1858
02:02:02,350 --> 02:02:03,590
Speaker 15: quote unquote, ceasefire.

1859
02:02:04,330 --> 02:02:05,110
Speaker 1: And others are.

1860
02:02:05,030 --> 02:02:08,710
Speaker 15: Dying in other completely inhumane ways, such as building collapse

1861
02:02:08,750 --> 02:02:12,090
Speaker 15: that we saw a couple of weeks ago. Because many people,

1862
02:02:12,170 --> 02:02:15,830
Speaker 15: to avoid the rats and the cold, because winter is coming,

1863
02:02:16,330 --> 02:02:19,550
Speaker 15: have just decided, I'm going to go back to a structure,

1864
02:02:19,830 --> 02:02:21,970
Speaker 15: even if it is half collapsed.

1865
02:02:21,990 --> 02:02:22,410
Speaker 6: Damaged.

1866
02:02:22,590 --> 02:02:23,930
Speaker 1: Damaged.

1867
02:02:23,950 --> 02:02:27,730
Speaker 15: And we're unfortunately seeing that Some of these structures are

1868
02:02:27,750 --> 02:02:31,530
Speaker 15: collapsing with people and families inside. So, you know, although

1869
02:02:31,590 --> 02:02:34,790
Speaker 15: the health crisis in Gaza has kind of disappeared from

1870
02:02:34,830 --> 02:02:39,130
Speaker 15: the news as soon as the ceasefire process started, the

1871
02:02:39,170 --> 02:02:41,839
Speaker 15: health catastrophe is just as bad and it is not

1872
02:02:41,880 --> 02:02:42,310
Speaker 15: getting better.

1873
02:02:42,810 --> 02:02:44,660
Speaker 14: You know, I get stuck on this question. It's like,

1874
02:02:45,080 --> 02:02:47,120
Speaker 14: like you said, what's going to happen to these people,

1875
02:02:47,260 --> 02:02:51,660
Speaker 14: even if the ceasefire stopped killing people, which, you know,

1876
02:02:51,680 --> 02:02:54,960
Speaker 14: like you said, there are still people dying. Like, we

1877
02:02:55,000 --> 02:02:59,490
Speaker 14: need something so... dramatic. And it shouldn't be the case

1878
02:02:59,530 --> 02:03:02,510
Speaker 14: that the rest of the world steps in to pay

1879
02:03:02,610 --> 02:03:07,880
Speaker 14: for Israel's crimes. Anyway, that's a whole other issue. But

1880
02:03:07,900 --> 02:03:10,100
Speaker 14: I want to highlight some of the work that you

1881
02:03:10,160 --> 02:03:13,340
Speaker 14: have been doing for the Arab Center Washington in particular.

1882
02:03:13,780 --> 02:03:15,420
Speaker 14: And I'll put all of these in the show notes

1883
02:03:15,480 --> 02:03:17,580
Speaker 14: as well. But you wrote a piece for the Arab

1884
02:03:17,600 --> 02:03:22,810
Speaker 14: Center Washington about medical evacuation and that Israel is controlling

1885
02:03:22,830 --> 02:03:24,530
Speaker 14: this process and using it as a tool of war.

1886
02:03:24,730 --> 02:03:27,580
Speaker 14: So could you break down this argument for us and

1887
02:03:27,620 --> 02:03:29,440
Speaker 14: describe it to listeners who may not be as familiar.

1888
02:03:29,460 --> 02:03:30,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.

1889
02:03:31,100 --> 02:03:34,090
Speaker 15: So due to the blockade in Gaza, we're talking the

1890
02:03:34,200 --> 02:03:38,690
Speaker 15: pre-2023 blockade, as well as the import restrictions in the

1891
02:03:38,750 --> 02:03:41,810
Speaker 15: West Bank that have kind of put a ceiling on

1892
02:03:41,850 --> 02:03:44,370
Speaker 15: what the local health systems are able to do. So

1893
02:03:44,850 --> 02:03:48,700
Speaker 15: certain medical equipment is banned by Israel from entering Gaza

1894
02:03:48,760 --> 02:03:52,420
Speaker 15: or the West Bank. And so the For decades, there

1895
02:03:52,460 --> 02:03:55,620
Speaker 15: has been a medical permit system that Palestinians have to

1896
02:03:55,660 --> 02:03:59,680
Speaker 15: apply to a permit, apply to Israel, mind you, receive

1897
02:03:59,720 --> 02:04:03,820
Speaker 15: permission from COGAT, paid for by the Palestinian Authority. So

1898
02:04:03,940 --> 02:04:07,620
Speaker 15: Israel is not paying for these medical evacuations. And they

1899
02:04:07,690 --> 02:04:11,150
Speaker 15: would leave the West Bank or Gaza to receive care,

1900
02:04:11,690 --> 02:04:16,070
Speaker 15: usually in East Jerusalem, sometimes in Israel, sometimes in neighboring

1901
02:04:16,110 --> 02:04:20,940
Speaker 15: countries like Jordan and Egypt. As of October 7th, Israel

1902
02:04:20,980 --> 02:04:24,490
Speaker 15: essentially closed that process that had existed. And this was

1903
02:04:24,570 --> 02:04:27,190
Speaker 15: an already broken process. And I could talk to you

1904
02:04:27,290 --> 02:04:30,550
Speaker 15: all day about that process before even all of the

1905
02:04:31,070 --> 02:04:35,630
Speaker 15: current situation. But what has happened is Israel is really

1906
02:04:35,710 --> 02:04:39,810
Speaker 15: tightly constricting who is able to leave the Gaza Strip,

1907
02:04:39,990 --> 02:04:42,030
Speaker 15: even to go to the West Bank, which is both

1908
02:04:42,190 --> 02:04:45,850
Speaker 15: occupied Palestinian territory and to receive the medical care that

1909
02:04:45,870 --> 02:04:48,130
Speaker 15: they need. I was just at an event last week

1910
02:04:48,210 --> 02:04:51,550
Speaker 15: where the CEO of Augusta Victoria Hospital, which is one

1911
02:04:51,570 --> 02:04:54,380
Speaker 15: of the main hospitals in the East Jerusalem Hospital Network,

1912
02:04:54,900 --> 02:04:59,200
Speaker 15: which is where many Palestinians go, especially for cancer care,

1913
02:04:59,700 --> 02:05:02,180
Speaker 15: he said he hasn't seen a single patient from Gaza

1914
02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:05,800
Speaker 15: since October 7th. The World Health Organization has a list of, again,

1915
02:05:05,840 --> 02:05:09,480
Speaker 15: approximately 20,000 cases of people that need to leave to

1916
02:05:09,520 --> 02:05:13,570
Speaker 15: receive care. And aside from the fact that Israel is

1917
02:05:13,790 --> 02:05:17,630
Speaker 15: often delaying approval of these permits, and anyone listening knows,

1918
02:05:17,710 --> 02:05:20,680
Speaker 15: when you have a health issue, you don't have infinite time.

1919
02:05:21,080 --> 02:05:25,000
Speaker 15: They're usually time-sensitive, especially if you're dealing with something like

1920
02:05:25,180 --> 02:05:28,960
Speaker 15: cancer or pregnancy, obviously very time-sensitive.

1921
02:05:29,440 --> 02:05:31,810
Speaker 1: If you delay... you're going to need.

1922
02:05:31,810 --> 02:05:34,950
Speaker 15: More care, greater care, and your prognosis is just worse.

1923
02:05:34,990 --> 02:05:37,770
Speaker 15: You're much more likely if you do have cancer. Wouldn't

1924
02:05:37,790 --> 02:05:40,520
Speaker 15: we rather treat it when you're stage one than when

1925
02:05:40,540 --> 02:05:43,060
Speaker 15: you're stage four and you're finally able to get the permit?

1926
02:05:43,120 --> 02:05:46,540
Speaker 15: So we are seeing people dying while waiting for these permits.

1927
02:05:47,420 --> 02:05:50,230
Speaker 15: We have heard reports that for some people who did

1928
02:05:50,310 --> 02:05:53,380
Speaker 15: manage to leave Gaza, to receive care, that they were

1929
02:05:53,560 --> 02:05:57,720
Speaker 15: being forced to sign forms that would basically not allow

1930
02:05:57,740 --> 02:05:59,740
Speaker 15: them back into Gaza. So yes, we will let you

1931
02:05:59,800 --> 02:06:02,339
Speaker 15: leave to get the care you need, but you can't return.

1932
02:06:03,100 --> 02:06:06,000
Speaker 15: And we're just seeing a blockage of this system. So

1933
02:06:06,040 --> 02:06:08,580
Speaker 15: there have been countries that have been willing to pay

1934
02:06:08,680 --> 02:06:13,820
Speaker 15: for and take these medical evacuees. But even in some

1935
02:06:13,860 --> 02:06:17,630
Speaker 15: of these recipient countries, we're talking dozens of cases, maybe

1936
02:06:17,710 --> 02:06:21,050
Speaker 15: hundreds in a few. We need thousands of cases here.

1937
02:06:21,680 --> 02:06:23,380
Speaker 15: And also at the same time, we need to think

1938
02:06:23,440 --> 02:06:25,880
Speaker 15: about what rebuilding the health system in Gaza looks like.

1939
02:06:25,940 --> 02:06:29,980
Speaker 15: So we don't need to engage in this medical permit

1940
02:06:30,020 --> 02:06:33,610
Speaker 15: system as broadly. Now that, I don't think we'll see

1941
02:06:33,630 --> 02:06:37,410
Speaker 15: that anytime soon. So Israel uses its control of the

1942
02:06:37,470 --> 02:06:42,270
Speaker 15: territories to affect health conditions inside, not just the health system,

1943
02:06:42,310 --> 02:06:45,270
Speaker 15: but also, as I said, sewage, lack of electricity, lack

1944
02:06:45,310 --> 02:06:49,270
Speaker 15: of nutritious food. Then it controls the process that Palestinians

1945
02:06:49,310 --> 02:06:51,840
Speaker 15: have to use to leave to get care, even if

1946
02:06:51,880 --> 02:06:53,780
Speaker 15: it is not Israel where they are going to get

1947
02:06:53,820 --> 02:06:56,100
Speaker 15: the care, even if Egypt is willing to accept them

1948
02:06:56,240 --> 02:06:57,900
Speaker 15: or Italy is willing to accept.

1949
02:06:57,660 --> 02:06:59,460
Speaker 1: Them or the UAE or whoever.

1950
02:07:00,320 --> 02:07:04,760
Speaker 15: Ultimately, this is an Israel permit process. And this has

1951
02:07:04,800 --> 02:07:08,540
Speaker 15: been a situation, again, since especially the blockade started in

1952
02:07:08,540 --> 02:07:11,940
Speaker 15: 2006 in Gaza. And we have long argued that this

1953
02:07:12,020 --> 02:07:14,540
Speaker 15: is unjust to put someone's.

1954
02:07:14,260 --> 02:07:16,700
Speaker 1: Health in the hands of an occupying power.

1955
02:07:17,400 --> 02:07:20,320
Speaker 15: And what we saw over the years was not just

1956
02:07:20,360 --> 02:07:23,180
Speaker 15: denials going up of the need for these permits.

1957
02:07:23,600 --> 02:07:26,330
Speaker 1: But delays such that people.

1958
02:07:26,130 --> 02:07:28,670
Speaker 15: Are missing appointments, people are not getting timely care, and

1959
02:07:28,690 --> 02:07:31,550
Speaker 15: people are dying while waiting for services. So This has

1960
02:07:31,590 --> 02:07:34,020
Speaker 15: long been a really unjust process. And now we're kind

1961
02:07:34,060 --> 02:07:39,400
Speaker 15: of seeing the inevitable outcome of not challenging that process,

1962
02:07:39,440 --> 02:07:43,200
Speaker 15: the impunity that Israel has had in controlling basically every

1963
02:07:43,380 --> 02:07:46,800
Speaker 15: aspect of Palestinian health. And now we have people who

1964
02:07:47,020 --> 02:07:49,540
Speaker 15: are dying while waiting for chemotherapy.

1965
02:07:49,770 --> 02:07:51,470
Speaker 1: It's really inhumane.

1966
02:07:51,490 --> 02:07:54,570
Speaker 14: I think at least some of us who follow this

1967
02:07:54,830 --> 02:07:58,770
Speaker 14: more closely, at this point, it's ridiculous how accustomed we

1968
02:07:58,810 --> 02:08:03,280
Speaker 14: have become to the news item that says, this person

1969
02:08:03,340 --> 02:08:05,320
Speaker 14: died at a checkpoint waiting to go to the hospital.

1970
02:08:05,720 --> 02:08:10,130
Speaker 14: But this on a massive scale, it's truly dystopian, the

1971
02:08:10,170 --> 02:08:15,110
Speaker 14: degree to which Palestinians have no control over any part

1972
02:08:15,410 --> 02:08:31,140
Speaker 14: of their lives. It's heartbreaking and dystopian. Also in December,

1973
02:08:31,610 --> 02:08:36,580
Speaker 14: you wrote about how Israel suspended 37 humanitarian groups, including

1974
02:08:36,820 --> 02:08:40,640
Speaker 14: the Norwegian Refugee Council, the IRC. And these groups provided

1975
02:08:40,720 --> 02:08:43,940
Speaker 14: more than half of Gaza's food assistance and supported the

1976
02:08:43,980 --> 02:08:47,780
Speaker 14: hospitals as well, if I understand correctly. So what justification

1977
02:08:47,820 --> 02:08:50,740
Speaker 14: did Israel give for suspending these humanitarian groups and what

1978
02:08:50,800 --> 02:08:51,660
Speaker 14: is really going on here?

1979
02:08:52,120 --> 02:08:54,880
Speaker 15: So Israel has used the same justification that it has

1980
02:08:55,040 --> 02:08:57,660
Speaker 15: used basically for every restriction that it has placed on

1981
02:08:57,700 --> 02:09:03,820
Speaker 15: Palestinian life, which is this kind of blanket, unquestionable, 100% urgent,

1982
02:09:03,900 --> 02:09:08,690
Speaker 15: necessary security needs. So all of this, the checkpoints, the

1983
02:09:08,730 --> 02:09:14,370
Speaker 15: permit system, the incarceration of Palestinians, the, I mean, all

1984
02:09:14,390 --> 02:09:18,030
Speaker 15: of it, this whole system is justified by Israel again

1985
02:09:18,090 --> 02:09:20,470
Speaker 15: and its allies as this kind of, we need this

1986
02:09:20,530 --> 02:09:24,000
Speaker 15: for security. And so we have seen that with humanitarian

1987
02:09:24,040 --> 02:09:27,080
Speaker 15: organizations as well. Now, I won't get too into the

1988
02:09:27,360 --> 02:09:31,310
Speaker 15: preamble of this, but even before this new registration rules

1989
02:09:31,350 --> 02:09:35,890
Speaker 15: for humanitarian organizations, Israel has been working very hard to

1990
02:09:36,010 --> 02:09:40,410
Speaker 15: whittle away the power and access that humanitarian organizations have,

1991
02:09:40,510 --> 02:09:43,690
Speaker 15: perhaps most notably to your audience in UNRWA, which it

1992
02:09:43,710 --> 02:09:49,410
Speaker 15: has been discrediting, delegitimizing for decades. Because UNRWA is, for

1993
02:09:49,470 --> 02:09:52,440
Speaker 15: all its flaws, an organization that does recognize the rights

1994
02:09:52,530 --> 02:09:57,180
Speaker 15: of Palestinians to return to their homeland. And so Israel

1995
02:09:57,280 --> 02:10:01,880
Speaker 15: kind of placed all these accusations on UNRWA that members

1996
02:10:01,940 --> 02:10:05,650
Speaker 15: were aligned with October 7th or participated in October 7th.

1997
02:10:06,340 --> 02:10:09,100
Speaker 15: It caused a lot of countries to cut funding. Now,

1998
02:10:09,240 --> 02:10:13,750
Speaker 15: independent investigations have since found that Of course, these accusations

1999
02:10:13,810 --> 02:10:17,280
Speaker 15: were completely unfounded in most cases, and at the very

2000
02:10:17,400 --> 02:10:22,040
Speaker 15: least did not justify kind of dismantling the entire organization.

2001
02:10:22,720 --> 02:10:26,260
Speaker 15: But as it has happened many times, nothing really was done.

2002
02:10:26,360 --> 02:10:28,440
Speaker 15: I mean, this kind of happens. People say, well, gee,

2003
02:10:28,460 --> 02:10:31,020
Speaker 15: that's not fair. And then everyone just kind of moves on.

2004
02:10:31,510 --> 02:10:35,430
Speaker 15: So the inevitable has happened, which is now Israel, again,

2005
02:10:35,450 --> 02:10:38,650
Speaker 15: an occupying power, which is not in debate, according to

2006
02:10:38,690 --> 02:10:43,760
Speaker 15: international law. is trying to impose new restrictions on humanitarian

2007
02:10:43,820 --> 02:10:47,420
Speaker 15: organizations who are working, particularly in the Gaza Strip. And

2008
02:10:47,580 --> 02:10:50,900
Speaker 15: part of what they are requiring is the name and

2009
02:10:51,040 --> 02:10:55,940
Speaker 15: address of every local worker that works at these agencies. Now,

2010
02:10:56,140 --> 02:10:58,990
Speaker 15: let's think for two seconds about why these agencies may

2011
02:10:59,050 --> 02:11:02,110
Speaker 15: not want to engage in that. Humanitarian and health workers

2012
02:11:02,390 --> 02:11:05,770
Speaker 15: have been killed in their homes by bombs with their

2013
02:11:05,830 --> 02:11:09,910
Speaker 15: families there. Aid convoys that have been clearly marked. I

2014
02:11:09,930 --> 02:11:12,550
Speaker 15: probably your audience is very familiar with the World Central

2015
02:11:12,590 --> 02:11:16,630
Speaker 15: Kitchen convoy and that kind of infamous image of this

2016
02:11:16,750 --> 02:11:19,550
Speaker 15: van with the logo on it with a bomb right

2017
02:11:19,590 --> 02:11:23,130
Speaker 15: next to it. And so many of these organizations said,

2018
02:11:23,350 --> 02:11:24,970
Speaker 15: we're not going to be able to do that.

2019
02:11:25,010 --> 02:11:25,830
Speaker 1: We're not going to do that.

2020
02:11:25,890 --> 02:11:28,510
Speaker 15: But we're essentially you're asking us to give you all

2021
02:11:28,550 --> 02:11:30,030
Speaker 15: the personal information of our staff.

2022
02:11:31,300 --> 02:11:33,280
Speaker 1: Now, Israel had initially said, if.

2023
02:11:33,260 --> 02:11:35,540
Speaker 15: You don't comply with these by March, at the time

2024
02:11:35,560 --> 02:11:38,260
Speaker 15: that I wrote that piece, then they would be deregistered.

2025
02:11:38,700 --> 02:11:41,980
Speaker 15: We've since seen many organizations come out and say that

2026
02:11:42,010 --> 02:11:43,630
Speaker 15: they would not participate.

2027
02:11:43,730 --> 02:11:44,470
Speaker 1: Some have.

2028
02:11:44,830 --> 02:11:48,390
Speaker 15: So we have seen some compliance by some organizations. And

2029
02:11:48,430 --> 02:11:51,250
Speaker 15: of course, their argument is always, well, we need access.

2030
02:11:51,290 --> 02:11:52,930
Speaker 15: And this is what we have to do for the access.

2031
02:11:53,430 --> 02:11:56,910
Speaker 15: So we have seen some delays in Israel's courts as

2032
02:11:56,970 --> 02:12:01,500
Speaker 15: to actual implementation of this. And organizations like UNRWA and.

2033
02:12:01,520 --> 02:12:03,900
Speaker 1: Others that have a heavy local.

2034
02:12:03,620 --> 02:12:07,840
Speaker 15: Palestinian staff presence on the ground, they don't need internationals

2035
02:12:07,880 --> 02:12:10,900
Speaker 15: to get entry permits, which Israel is blocking. And we've

2036
02:12:10,940 --> 02:12:15,120
Speaker 15: seen this increase in recent months. Basically, foreigners of all types,

2037
02:12:15,200 --> 02:12:19,030
Speaker 15: including foreign ministers who are trying to enter the West Bank,

2038
02:12:19,150 --> 02:12:22,650
Speaker 15: let alone Gaza, are being turned away. But we have

2039
02:12:22,750 --> 02:12:27,800
Speaker 15: seen those organizations are still functional to some level, but

2040
02:12:27,840 --> 02:12:30,880
Speaker 15: I have heard whispers and, you know, people are very,

2041
02:12:30,940 --> 02:12:33,310
Speaker 15: very concerned about what this means for the future of

2042
02:12:33,350 --> 02:12:36,410
Speaker 15: these organizations as it relates to their work with Palestinians.

2043
02:12:36,850 --> 02:12:39,270
Speaker 15: Local staff need to be paid. They need to be

2044
02:12:39,330 --> 02:12:41,890
Speaker 15: sure that they're safe. They need to have the equipment

2045
02:12:41,930 --> 02:12:45,220
Speaker 15: and resources that they need to help people. And so, again,

2046
02:12:45,240 --> 02:12:50,650
Speaker 15: Israel creates rules and then basically says, you have to

2047
02:12:50,690 --> 02:12:52,890
Speaker 15: submit to these rules or you won't be able to

2048
02:12:52,910 --> 02:12:56,030
Speaker 15: do what you need to do, what you're tasked to do,

2049
02:12:56,550 --> 02:12:59,630
Speaker 15: and what you had previously been permitted to do. Again,

2050
02:12:59,650 --> 02:13:03,440
Speaker 15: the rules themselves are unquestioned. Again, we saw some condemnations

2051
02:13:03,490 --> 02:13:06,820
Speaker 15: of this, but primarily from the humanitarian organizations themselves, we

2052
02:13:06,840 --> 02:13:09,920
Speaker 15: saw quite a strong statement early on signed by many

2053
02:13:09,960 --> 02:13:10,540
Speaker 15: of them that.

2054
02:13:10,460 --> 02:13:12,460
Speaker 1: Said, this is completely unacceptable.

2055
02:13:13,260 --> 02:13:16,880
Speaker 15: But unfortunately, the global powers and the funders of these

2056
02:13:16,960 --> 02:13:19,740
Speaker 15: organizations have not meaningfully pushed back on this. Now, we're

2057
02:13:19,780 --> 02:13:22,210
Speaker 15: seeing a lot of upheaval, and I won't go too

2058
02:13:22,250 --> 02:13:25,690
Speaker 15: much into this, in the Israeli Supreme Court. And of course,

2059
02:13:25,790 --> 02:13:27,910
Speaker 15: Israel has elections coming up. So a lot of these

2060
02:13:27,970 --> 02:13:30,450
Speaker 15: processes have been kind of delayed and put on hold.

2061
02:13:31,010 --> 02:13:35,330
Speaker 15: So we're really interested, to say the least, as to

2062
02:13:35,410 --> 02:13:38,730
Speaker 15: how a lot of this unfolds after Israel's elections.

2063
02:13:39,330 --> 02:13:41,350
Speaker 14: Correct me if I'm wrong with this, because obviously this

2064
02:13:41,410 --> 02:13:43,370
Speaker 14: is not my area of expertise, but I was at

2065
02:13:43,390 --> 02:13:47,570
Speaker 14: a meeting with the commissioner general of UNRWA recently. I mean,

2066
02:13:47,590 --> 02:13:50,070
Speaker 14: let me, before I ask the question, also tell the

2067
02:13:50,090 --> 02:13:51,990
Speaker 14: listeners without bearing the lead, the reason they want to

2068
02:13:52,010 --> 02:13:54,930
Speaker 14: dismantle UNRWA is because it keeps alive this, or they

2069
02:13:54,970 --> 02:13:56,530
Speaker 14: think it keeps alive this issue of the right of

2070
02:13:56,570 --> 02:13:59,270
Speaker 14: return as if like that is a right that can

2071
02:13:59,950 --> 02:14:04,470
Speaker 14: disappear if UNRWA disappears. Now that said, UNRWA has been

2072
02:14:04,510 --> 02:14:07,220
Speaker 14: under attack. And like you said, they've attempted to dismantle

2073
02:14:07,230 --> 02:14:10,060
Speaker 14: it in a variety of ways, but Based on what

2074
02:14:10,100 --> 02:14:14,660
Speaker 14: I heard at that meeting, UNRWA does comply with the

2075
02:14:14,680 --> 02:14:19,600
Speaker 14: state of Israel. UNRWA does provide lists and fires people

2076
02:14:19,660 --> 02:14:23,020
Speaker 14: based on Israeli suspicions. And at least this is what

2077
02:14:23,540 --> 02:14:26,140
Speaker 14: I got out of that meeting. Maybe I misunderstood the

2078
02:14:26,180 --> 02:14:27,200
Speaker 14: degree of coordination.

2079
02:14:27,600 --> 02:14:27,860
Speaker 11: Yes.

2080
02:14:28,160 --> 02:14:30,610
Speaker 1: So we could have a whole other episode, right? About critique.

2081
02:14:30,630 --> 02:14:31,390
Speaker 2: About UNRWA.

2082
02:14:31,410 --> 02:14:32,010
Speaker 14: Yeah.

2083
02:14:32,190 --> 02:14:36,270
Speaker 15: And that would be a whole interesting conversation. But UNRWA has,

2084
02:14:36,510 --> 02:14:40,900
Speaker 15: rightfully so, been critiqued by Palestinians. So when you look

2085
02:14:40,920 --> 02:14:45,840
Speaker 15: at camps and they're really underdeveloped, overcrowded, very, you know, dusty,

2086
02:14:46,080 --> 02:14:50,190
Speaker 15: very thin streets. And then you look at the UNRWA school, big, shiny,

2087
02:14:50,690 --> 02:14:53,350
Speaker 15: the foreign staff that are coming in to overlook these

2088
02:14:53,410 --> 02:14:56,890
Speaker 15: schools and hospitals are paid much higher salaries than the

2089
02:14:56,930 --> 02:15:01,630
Speaker 15: Palestinian staff. There's a whole host of arguments about UNRWA.

2090
02:15:02,010 --> 02:15:04,760
Speaker 15: And it's important to remember that when UNRWA kind of

2091
02:15:04,800 --> 02:15:07,740
Speaker 15: was founded in the late 1940s to deal with this

2092
02:15:08,370 --> 02:15:13,430
Speaker 15: new and expectedly short-term Palestinian refugee problem. At the same time,

2093
02:15:13,490 --> 02:15:16,140
Speaker 15: there was another, you know, kind of strain that was

2094
02:15:16,180 --> 02:15:18,920
Speaker 15: meant to deal with the political side. So Uderwa was

2095
02:15:19,040 --> 02:15:21,660
Speaker 15: never meant to be a political actor. It was only

2096
02:15:21,740 --> 02:15:24,580
Speaker 15: meant to kind of provide relief in these new camps

2097
02:15:24,620 --> 02:15:28,000
Speaker 15: that had sprung up that went from tents to buildings

2098
02:15:28,100 --> 02:15:31,640
Speaker 15: to basically towns. And so in some ways, they are

2099
02:15:31,760 --> 02:15:34,480
Speaker 15: critiqued for something that is not their mandate. They are

2100
02:15:34,590 --> 02:15:39,000
Speaker 15: a relief organization. And so as long as Palestinian refugees

2101
02:15:39,040 --> 02:15:41,510
Speaker 15: need relief, their argument is, we're going to give the relief.

2102
02:15:42,100 --> 02:15:43,830
Speaker 1: Someone else needs to work out the political side.

2103
02:15:44,330 --> 02:15:47,370
Speaker 15: And we can argue about how that relief and how

2104
02:15:47,430 --> 02:15:51,910
Speaker 15: humanitarian ecosystem as a whole has kind of enabled Israel's

2105
02:15:52,050 --> 02:15:54,910
Speaker 15: actions and made it so that Israel does not have

2106
02:15:54,950 --> 02:15:57,890
Speaker 15: to comply with its obligations as an occupying power to

2107
02:15:57,930 --> 02:16:02,370
Speaker 15: provide food, to provide medicine, to not transfer populations, for example,

2108
02:16:02,470 --> 02:16:05,930
Speaker 15: from occupied territory to Israeli jails. We can have a

2109
02:16:05,970 --> 02:16:11,130
Speaker 15: conversation about that. And UNRWA is very publicly, I would

2110
02:16:11,170 --> 02:16:13,940
Speaker 15: say conservative when it comes to critiquing the Israeli government.

2111
02:16:14,000 --> 02:16:17,120
Speaker 15: So when you look at recent statements from organizations like Oxfam,

2112
02:16:17,610 --> 02:16:22,010
Speaker 15: Or even MSF, which typically really prioritized neutrality. Even they

2113
02:16:22,070 --> 02:16:24,290
Speaker 15: have been really willing to say now, you know, they've

2114
02:16:24,390 --> 02:16:25,750
Speaker 15: used words like genocide.

2115
02:16:25,790 --> 02:16:26,589
Speaker 14: This is ridiculous.

2116
02:16:26,950 --> 02:16:29,850
Speaker 1: Yes, this is ridiculous. This is a complete affront to

2117
02:16:29,890 --> 02:16:34,010
Speaker 1: the entire infrastructure of humanitarianism as we developed it after

2118
02:16:34,030 --> 02:16:36,170
Speaker 1: World War II. UNRWA is much.

2119
02:16:36,070 --> 02:16:39,110
Speaker 15: More conservative with its statements. And again, it claims that

2120
02:16:39,410 --> 02:16:43,410
Speaker 15: its priority is access. It is the biggest service provider

2121
02:16:43,470 --> 02:16:45,900
Speaker 15: for health and education in the Gaza Strip, and it

2122
02:16:46,000 --> 02:16:48,180
Speaker 15: is one of the biggest in the West Bank. So,

2123
02:16:48,780 --> 02:16:51,439
Speaker 15: you know, it's this kind of catch-22 that the Palestinians

2124
02:16:51,459 --> 02:16:54,699
Speaker 15: that depend on those services are in. Now, as far

2125
02:16:54,780 --> 02:16:57,740
Speaker 15: as I know, because UNRWA is in the UN system,

2126
02:16:57,780 --> 02:17:00,020
Speaker 15: their argument is that they do not have to be

2127
02:17:00,080 --> 02:17:03,160
Speaker 15: subject to the same restrictions that Israel would place on

2128
02:17:03,180 --> 02:17:09,630
Speaker 15: non-UN humanitarian organizations. And recently we've seen other Israeli activities

2129
02:17:09,690 --> 02:17:12,810
Speaker 15: such as they bulldozed the UNRWA headquarters in East Jerusalem.

2130
02:17:12,850 --> 02:17:14,150
Speaker 1: Like they are trying.

2131
02:17:14,400 --> 02:17:18,620
Speaker 15: Both bureaucratically, administratively and physically to kind of remove this entity.

2132
02:17:19,140 --> 02:17:21,629
Speaker 15: But as far as I know, and things change very

2133
02:17:21,670 --> 02:17:24,310
Speaker 15: quickly on this, they did not comply with the new

2134
02:17:24,390 --> 02:17:30,440
Speaker 15: registration details. That said, they did really internalize these accusations

2135
02:17:30,480 --> 02:17:32,740
Speaker 15: that Israel had levied against them after October 7th.

2136
02:17:32,760 --> 02:17:34,120
Speaker 1: They did fire some staff.

2137
02:17:34,860 --> 02:17:38,170
Speaker 15: They, in the opinion of many, did not forcefully defend

2138
02:17:38,230 --> 02:17:40,869
Speaker 15: their staff as much as they could have. And when

2139
02:17:40,890 --> 02:17:45,320
Speaker 15: you talk to people that work with or work in UNRWA, again,

2140
02:17:45,379 --> 02:17:47,850
Speaker 15: they say, we are just trying to get through this

2141
02:17:47,930 --> 02:17:51,470
Speaker 15: period and maintain as much of an infrastructure as we can.

2142
02:17:51,490 --> 02:17:53,970
Speaker 15: And they have been through ups and downs before. I

2143
02:17:54,140 --> 02:17:56,060
Speaker 15: don't know if they've been through downs that are this

2144
02:17:56,140 --> 02:17:59,880
Speaker 15: down at any point. You know, the past, especially since

2145
02:17:59,900 --> 02:18:04,340
Speaker 15: the first Trump administration, we've seen really targeted attacks against UNRWA,

2146
02:18:04,379 --> 02:18:09,330
Speaker 15: which the Biden administration continues. But yes, it is undoubtedly

2147
02:18:09,350 --> 02:18:14,129
Speaker 15: UNRWA is not as vocal in terms of defending its staff,

2148
02:18:14,270 --> 02:18:18,730
Speaker 15: in terms of making political proclamations, in terms of, you know,

2149
02:18:18,810 --> 02:18:21,230
Speaker 15: just what we would kind of hope that one of

2150
02:18:21,270 --> 02:18:25,070
Speaker 15: the primary actors that is tasked with protecting a very

2151
02:18:25,129 --> 02:18:26,750
Speaker 15: vulnerable population would do.

2152
02:18:26,770 --> 02:18:28,400
Speaker 14: I mean, defending its own mandate.

2153
02:18:28,770 --> 02:18:28,980
Speaker 11: Right.

2154
02:18:29,010 --> 02:18:30,010
Speaker 1: Defending its own mandate.

2155
02:18:30,090 --> 02:18:30,300
Speaker 11: Right.

2156
02:18:30,350 --> 02:18:31,300
Speaker 1: To provide relief.

2157
02:18:31,660 --> 02:18:34,869
Speaker 15: And it's kind of constantly and so much of the

2158
02:18:34,910 --> 02:18:38,450
Speaker 15: international community is kind of constantly playing by Israel's rules.

2159
02:18:38,930 --> 02:18:42,070
Speaker 15: Israel makes an accusation, makes a rule. And instead of

2160
02:18:42,129 --> 02:18:45,550
Speaker 15: being like that accusation is insane or this rule is

2161
02:18:45,610 --> 02:18:48,350
Speaker 15: based in nothing, people just start arguing about, well, how

2162
02:18:48,390 --> 02:18:49,930
Speaker 15: can we get against that rule or how do we

2163
02:18:49,970 --> 02:18:51,630
Speaker 15: defend against that accusation?

2164
02:18:52,110 --> 02:18:54,630
Speaker 1: And this has been the playbook for a really long time.

2165
02:18:54,690 --> 02:18:57,660
Speaker 15: I think UNRWA has not been very effective in defending

2166
02:18:57,720 --> 02:19:01,110
Speaker 15: against that. Again, I think they would probably argue that's

2167
02:19:01,150 --> 02:19:03,010
Speaker 15: not what we're supposed to do. There's supposed to be

2168
02:19:03,270 --> 02:19:06,879
Speaker 15: political entities that defend against that. And we have seen

2169
02:19:06,980 --> 02:19:10,340
Speaker 15: some of the funders that pulled funding initially after October

2170
02:19:10,640 --> 02:19:14,630
Speaker 15: 7th have reinstated funding. That said, Unruwa is in a

2171
02:19:14,690 --> 02:19:19,109
Speaker 15: very precarious position. And I and others are really interested

2172
02:19:19,270 --> 02:19:22,770
Speaker 15: in seeing in five years, what will Unruwa look like?

2173
02:19:23,090 --> 02:19:25,800
Speaker 15: Will it be an organization kind of in name only?

2174
02:19:26,320 --> 02:19:28,860
Speaker 15: You know, there's so much uncertainty, I think, coming up.

2175
02:19:28,959 --> 02:19:31,360
Speaker 15: And they're a huge part of that. Because if their

2176
02:19:31,420 --> 02:19:35,620
Speaker 15: services go, we suddenly have hundreds of thousands of people

2177
02:19:35,660 --> 02:19:40,110
Speaker 15: with no school, no hospital, no clinics. And a lot

2178
02:19:40,129 --> 02:19:42,770
Speaker 15: of Palestinians that work for UNRWA with no jobs and

2179
02:19:42,830 --> 02:19:47,610
Speaker 15: no salary and to contribute to the already insane unemployment

2180
02:19:47,650 --> 02:19:50,490
Speaker 15: rate and, you know, kind of economic doom spiral that

2181
02:19:50,530 --> 02:19:51,310
Speaker 15: the West Bank and.

2182
02:19:51,230 --> 02:19:52,250
Speaker 1: Gaza are in right now.

2183
02:19:52,350 --> 02:19:56,810
Speaker 15: So it's a really complicated, nuanced issue. And there's just

2184
02:19:56,890 --> 02:19:59,820
Speaker 15: so much uncertainty. I couldn't even begin to speculate on

2185
02:19:59,850 --> 02:20:00,760
Speaker 15: what comes next.

2186
02:20:01,180 --> 02:20:02,660
Speaker 14: Yeah, like you said, there's so much to talk about

2187
02:20:02,700 --> 02:20:04,580
Speaker 14: on that topic and on.

2188
02:20:04,280 --> 02:20:05,020
Speaker 2: Gaza as a whole.

2189
02:20:05,040 --> 02:20:11,070
Speaker 14: I just felt like despite how much they comply. There's

2190
02:20:11,110 --> 02:20:11,610
Speaker 14: no winning.

2191
02:20:11,890 --> 02:20:12,269
Speaker 11: No winning.

2192
02:20:12,490 --> 02:20:12,870
Speaker 2: That's it.

2193
02:20:13,430 --> 02:20:14,310
Speaker 1: That's the main takeaway.

2194
02:20:14,650 --> 02:20:14,830
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2195
02:20:14,930 --> 02:20:17,869
Speaker 14: Israel isn't trying to cooperate, obviously.

2196
02:20:18,650 --> 02:20:18,890
Speaker 5: Right.

2197
02:20:19,150 --> 02:20:19,330
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2198
02:20:19,810 --> 02:20:21,050
Speaker 14: So let's move on to the West Bank now.

2199
02:20:21,310 --> 02:20:21,529
Speaker 10: Sure.

2200
02:20:21,770 --> 02:20:23,840
Speaker 14: I've talked in a recent episode about how the West

2201
02:20:23,860 --> 02:20:26,260
Speaker 14: Bank is being ethnically cleansed. So listeners can refer to

2202
02:20:26,300 --> 02:20:29,160
Speaker 14: that episode if they want more info. But in July,

2203
02:20:29,200 --> 02:20:31,539
Speaker 14: you wrote for the Arab Center Washington about specifically the

2204
02:20:31,600 --> 02:20:35,120
Speaker 14: use of sexual violence in both territories. But since we're

2205
02:20:35,140 --> 02:20:37,760
Speaker 14: talking about the West Bank, How is sexual violence being

2206
02:20:37,920 --> 02:20:39,869
Speaker 14: used in the West Bank right now? How is the

2207
02:20:39,890 --> 02:20:42,369
Speaker 14: threat being used and by whom? And what is it accomplishing?

2208
02:20:43,190 --> 02:20:46,510
Speaker 15: Yeah, this is a tough topic, you know, and that

2209
02:20:46,530 --> 02:20:49,300
Speaker 15: was a really tough piece to write just because I

2210
02:20:50,260 --> 02:20:55,090
Speaker 15: think part of what we as kind of Palestine-focused scholars

2211
02:20:55,350 --> 02:20:58,650
Speaker 15: or people, even just observers of the situation, there are

2212
02:20:58,750 --> 02:21:03,310
Speaker 15: just so many pieces and mechanisms of displacement and ethnic

2213
02:21:03,330 --> 02:21:06,310
Speaker 15: cleansing utilized by Israel. So my primary lens that I

2214
02:21:06,390 --> 02:21:09,070
Speaker 15: use to look at that is degradation, de-development, and destruction

2215
02:21:09,090 --> 02:21:13,550
Speaker 15: of the health system. But I think what we've seen,

2216
02:21:14,350 --> 02:21:17,190
Speaker 15: especially since October 7th and all of these accounts that

2217
02:21:17,209 --> 02:21:20,529
Speaker 15: are coming out of Israeli prisons, is that sexual violence

2218
02:21:20,770 --> 02:21:24,150
Speaker 15: is wielded as a tool of essentially abuse and torture,

2219
02:21:24,230 --> 02:21:28,650
Speaker 15: primarily of Palestinian prisoners. Now, as early as the Nekba,

2220
02:21:28,810 --> 02:21:32,459
Speaker 15: there were reports in villages that were being kind of

2221
02:21:32,760 --> 02:21:36,180
Speaker 15: raided by Zionist militias of sexual violence of women and

2222
02:21:36,220 --> 02:21:39,160
Speaker 15: girls as a way to kind of show power. I mean,

2223
02:21:39,180 --> 02:21:42,600
Speaker 15: that's really the core of sexual violence. It is a

2224
02:21:42,620 --> 02:21:46,470
Speaker 15: way to show power. It is a way to induce powerlessness.

2225
02:21:47,200 --> 02:21:49,200
Speaker 15: It is a way to say, I can do this

2226
02:21:49,280 --> 02:21:49,840
Speaker 15: to you.

2227
02:21:49,700 --> 02:21:51,280
Speaker 1: And there's nothing you can do about it. And I'm

2228
02:21:51,300 --> 02:21:52,260
Speaker 1: going to do it publicly.

2229
02:21:52,379 --> 02:21:55,039
Speaker 15: And so there are many reports from the Nakba and

2230
02:21:55,500 --> 02:21:59,820
Speaker 15: the years afterwards that indicated that sexual.

2231
02:21:59,180 --> 02:22:00,500
Speaker 1: Violence was being used.

2232
02:22:00,660 --> 02:22:03,160
Speaker 15: And then the women, in some cases, were being paraded

2233
02:22:03,220 --> 02:22:06,740
Speaker 15: around Jerusalem as kind of a warning to other Palestinians.

2234
02:22:07,300 --> 02:22:10,600
Speaker 15: So it's been a part of this ecosystem, you know,

2235
02:22:10,720 --> 02:22:13,190
Speaker 15: for almost a century. So what we've seen lately is

2236
02:22:14,050 --> 02:22:19,250
Speaker 15: is many Palestinian prisoners, male and female, have reported sexual

2237
02:22:19,290 --> 02:22:24,310
Speaker 15: violence under Israeli guards. There have been, in fact, there was,

2238
02:22:24,470 --> 02:22:27,490
Speaker 15: I'm sure your audience is familiar with that famous video from,

2239
02:22:27,570 --> 02:22:30,770
Speaker 15: I believe, the State Timon prison of a Palestinian male

2240
02:22:30,850 --> 02:22:33,010
Speaker 15: prisoner who was being sexually assaulted.

2241
02:22:33,730 --> 02:22:37,600
Speaker 1: He needed medical care for his injuries. And there have

2242
02:22:37,660 --> 02:22:38,340
Speaker 1: been many.

2243
02:22:38,220 --> 02:22:41,880
Speaker 15: Reports that along with other forms of torture and medical neglect,

2244
02:22:41,959 --> 02:22:45,760
Speaker 15: so lack of clean food, lack of showers, lack of bathrooms,

2245
02:22:45,860 --> 02:22:49,590
Speaker 15: lack of care for medical needs, that sexual abuse and

2246
02:22:49,650 --> 02:22:55,190
Speaker 15: violence have been used against Palestinian prisoners. This includes stripping

2247
02:22:55,230 --> 02:23:00,220
Speaker 15: people publicly, including women. This includes sexual assault in some cases.

2248
02:23:00,820 --> 02:23:01,940
Speaker 1: Sometimes it includes violence.

2249
02:23:02,190 --> 02:23:05,900
Speaker 15: Threatening sexual assault upon people's families that are back home

2250
02:23:05,980 --> 02:23:09,560
Speaker 15: if they don't collaborate or cooperate or give information.

2251
02:23:09,600 --> 02:23:12,180
Speaker 1: You know, it's all used as a form of torture.

2252
02:23:13,020 --> 02:23:16,920
Speaker 15: And this is a very difficult issue to discuss throughout

2253
02:23:16,970 --> 02:23:21,189
Speaker 15: the Middle East. We have, unfortunately, very little good comprehensive

2254
02:23:21,230 --> 02:23:23,949
Speaker 15: data on incidents of sexual violence and assault. Much of

2255
02:23:23,990 --> 02:23:28,160
Speaker 15: this comes from firsthand testimonies of those who have experienced it.

2256
02:23:28,230 --> 02:23:31,850
Speaker 15: But there has been an undeniable increase in those reports

2257
02:23:32,220 --> 02:23:36,320
Speaker 15: I mean, Israel has imprisoned thousands of Palestinians just since

2258
02:23:36,379 --> 02:23:39,760
Speaker 15: October 7th, many of whom, no charge, you know, kind

2259
02:23:39,780 --> 02:23:44,940
Speaker 15: of under administrative detention. And there is no access to

2260
02:23:44,959 --> 02:23:47,680
Speaker 15: these prisoners by the Red Cross or others. Sometimes they

2261
02:23:47,700 --> 02:23:50,160
Speaker 15: won't even allow their lawyers or their families to talk

2262
02:23:50,200 --> 02:23:52,250
Speaker 15: to them. So all of this is kind of happening

2263
02:23:52,390 --> 02:23:57,129
Speaker 15: in secret. And it's those lucky prisoners who are released

2264
02:23:57,150 --> 02:23:59,770
Speaker 15: or have some contact with the outside world that are

2265
02:23:59,890 --> 02:24:02,720
Speaker 15: able to kind of tell people what is happening. And

2266
02:24:02,780 --> 02:24:08,039
Speaker 15: so we've seen this increased brazenness with Israeli soldiers. They

2267
02:24:08,080 --> 02:24:11,960
Speaker 15: are kind of even boasting about their crimes online, posting videos,

2268
02:24:12,440 --> 02:24:17,080
Speaker 15: posting pictures, posting what they see as kind of funny

2269
02:24:17,120 --> 02:24:19,600
Speaker 15: stories about how they're treating Palestinian prisoners.

2270
02:24:19,680 --> 02:24:20,520
Speaker 1: And we're seeing.

2271
02:24:20,300 --> 02:24:23,200
Speaker 15: Sexual violence reported by them as well. So it's not

2272
02:24:23,240 --> 02:24:26,920
Speaker 15: just the prisoners reporting this. The perpetrators are also saying, yeah,

2273
02:24:26,940 --> 02:24:27,420
Speaker 15: we're doing this.

2274
02:24:27,900 --> 02:24:28,980
Speaker 1: No one can do anything.

2275
02:24:29,459 --> 02:24:32,750
Speaker 15: I think much of that has gotten lost in the

2276
02:24:32,810 --> 02:24:35,970
Speaker 15: conversation of what's happened to Palestinians because, you know, there's

2277
02:24:36,090 --> 02:24:40,770
Speaker 15: so much overt things happening, you know, the destruction of Gaza,

2278
02:24:40,790 --> 02:24:44,140
Speaker 15: the genocide, the settler violence throughout the West Bank. But

2279
02:24:44,640 --> 02:24:48,320
Speaker 15: the settler violence has also taken a tone of including

2280
02:24:48,620 --> 02:24:52,640
Speaker 15: sexual violence and abuse. There was this story that I

2281
02:24:52,700 --> 02:24:55,580
Speaker 15: recount in the piece of a man who was sexually

2282
02:24:55,640 --> 02:24:58,790
Speaker 15: assaulted by settlers, then kind of paraded through his own village.

2283
02:24:58,950 --> 02:25:03,090
Speaker 15: So we are seeing this kind of tool of domination

2284
02:25:03,709 --> 02:25:09,030
Speaker 15: utilized more brazenly, more openly, more explicitly by both primarily

2285
02:25:09,110 --> 02:25:15,400
Speaker 15: Israeli prison guards and Israeli settlers. And again, the incentive

2286
02:25:15,420 --> 02:25:18,180
Speaker 15: structure is that you can do this and nothing is

2287
02:25:18,220 --> 02:25:21,459
Speaker 15: going to happen to you. And so in that kind

2288
02:25:21,520 --> 02:25:25,560
Speaker 15: of bubble of impunity, as we've warned about and many

2289
02:25:25,620 --> 02:25:28,860
Speaker 15: scholars have warned about and many observers and many Palestinians,

2290
02:25:29,340 --> 02:25:32,240
Speaker 15: the more you let them get away with crimes, even

2291
02:25:32,280 --> 02:25:36,160
Speaker 15: documented crimes, the more they are going to perpetuate these

2292
02:25:36,180 --> 02:25:39,340
Speaker 15: crimes and escalate when we're in the escalation phase right now.

2293
02:25:39,940 --> 02:25:42,949
Speaker 14: Yeah, there's this dynamic of like also even the threat

2294
02:25:43,030 --> 02:25:48,490
Speaker 14: of sexual violence is pushing Palestinian families to leave because

2295
02:25:48,510 --> 02:25:50,310
Speaker 14: they're worried about their children, they're worried about their.

2296
02:25:50,350 --> 02:25:50,950
Speaker 5: Exactly.

2297
02:25:51,110 --> 02:25:52,090
Speaker 6: So, yeah.

2298
02:25:52,610 --> 02:25:56,610
Speaker 15: It's really interesting because settler violence you know, it can

2299
02:25:56,650 --> 02:25:59,699
Speaker 15: come in several forms. It can be very explicit. They

2300
02:25:59,920 --> 02:26:03,720
Speaker 15: attack or threaten you. They attack your car. They kill

2301
02:26:03,740 --> 02:26:07,619
Speaker 15: your livestock. They burn your fields. They, you know, spread

2302
02:26:07,740 --> 02:26:09,180
Speaker 15: garbage on your crop.

2303
02:26:09,200 --> 02:26:09,940
Speaker 2: Skunk water.

2304
02:26:10,000 --> 02:26:10,390
Speaker 5: Exactly.

2305
02:26:10,410 --> 02:26:11,730
Speaker 1: There's a million mechanisms.

2306
02:26:12,350 --> 02:26:14,530
Speaker 15: And what we're seeing lately is that added to that

2307
02:26:14,590 --> 02:26:18,190
Speaker 15: list is either sexual violence or, as you said, the

2308
02:26:18,250 --> 02:26:21,170
Speaker 15: threat of sexual violence. And in that piece, I recount

2309
02:26:21,220 --> 02:26:24,090
Speaker 15: how some families said, That was the line for us.

2310
02:26:24,379 --> 02:26:26,560
Speaker 15: We were willing to stay. We were going to stay.

2311
02:26:26,580 --> 02:26:29,260
Speaker 15: We could deal with the physical attacks. But once it

2312
02:26:29,300 --> 02:26:32,339
Speaker 15: got to the point where I could no longer sleep

2313
02:26:32,500 --> 02:26:35,320
Speaker 15: because I was I felt feared for my mother or

2314
02:26:35,360 --> 02:26:38,600
Speaker 15: my daughter or my sister or, you know, people in

2315
02:26:38,640 --> 02:26:40,920
Speaker 15: my family at the risk of the sexual violence that

2316
02:26:40,940 --> 02:26:43,980
Speaker 15: was threatened, we had to go. And so you can

2317
02:26:44,100 --> 02:26:47,550
Speaker 15: see how it is a tool of the ethnic cleansing

2318
02:26:47,570 --> 02:26:50,330
Speaker 15: that you pointed out, because it is the way to

2319
02:26:50,510 --> 02:26:54,850
Speaker 15: without actually even doing anything. you know, enacting the violence,

2320
02:26:55,410 --> 02:26:58,689
Speaker 15: you can force people to leave their homes. And what

2321
02:26:58,730 --> 02:27:01,830
Speaker 15: happens after people leave their homes is settlers immediately take

2322
02:27:01,910 --> 02:27:02,610
Speaker 15: over that land.

2323
02:27:02,709 --> 02:27:04,470
Speaker 1: And we've seen that happen over and over again.

2324
02:27:04,890 --> 02:27:05,629
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2325
02:27:05,830 --> 02:27:08,820
Speaker 14: And it's not an empty threat because like you said,

2326
02:27:08,860 --> 02:27:10,699
Speaker 14: they get away with it. So if they did enact

2327
02:27:10,740 --> 02:27:14,440
Speaker 14: the violence, so like these Palestinian families are making... Rational choices.

2328
02:27:14,980 --> 02:27:18,940
Speaker 14: Rational choices, exactly. It's just such a hard topic.

2329
02:27:19,240 --> 02:27:20,260
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is.

2330
02:27:20,920 --> 02:27:23,940
Speaker 15: And just to note, we've barely even scratched the surface

2331
02:27:24,000 --> 02:27:29,470
Speaker 15: because we know that because of religious and cultural context,

2332
02:27:29,590 --> 02:27:34,150
Speaker 15: many people who experience this are simply too ashamed to share.

2333
02:27:34,170 --> 02:27:38,070
Speaker 15: They certainly won't report to a researcher or even a

2334
02:27:38,150 --> 02:27:40,680
Speaker 15: field worker, even if they're a local pal. and this

2335
02:27:40,720 --> 02:27:44,080
Speaker 15: happened to them. So undoubtedly this is happening to people

2336
02:27:44,180 --> 02:27:46,939
Speaker 15: and not being reported at a much wider scale than

2337
02:27:46,990 --> 02:27:48,670
Speaker 15: these publicly reported stories.

2338
02:27:49,010 --> 02:27:52,770
Speaker 14: Yeah, absolutely. I always think also like first intifada, second intifada,

2339
02:27:52,790 --> 02:27:57,550
Speaker 14: like sexual violence was used and they weaponized that shame.

2340
02:27:57,590 --> 02:27:58,900
Speaker 14: They weaponized that secrecy.

2341
02:27:58,920 --> 02:27:59,060
Speaker 16: Right.

2342
02:27:59,590 --> 02:28:01,589
Speaker 14: And now we're just seeing it at such a scale

2343
02:28:01,870 --> 02:28:05,750
Speaker 14: that there are some brave people who are bringing it

2344
02:28:05,770 --> 02:28:06,470
Speaker 14: to our attention.

2345
02:28:06,490 --> 02:28:07,750
Speaker 1: That's a great point.

2346
02:28:08,350 --> 02:28:12,720
Speaker 15: It's become so unavoidable and overt that people are even

2347
02:28:12,800 --> 02:28:16,480
Speaker 15: willing to kind of overlook or overcome that shame and stigma.

2348
02:28:16,520 --> 02:28:20,080
Speaker 15: Because I think one thing that Palestinians have been trying

2349
02:28:20,140 --> 02:28:23,520
Speaker 15: to say forever is, look what they're doing to us.

2350
02:28:24,100 --> 02:28:24,890
Speaker 1: Please just look.

2351
02:28:25,250 --> 02:28:28,860
Speaker 15: At least acknowledge that you see that it's happening. And

2352
02:28:29,100 --> 02:28:32,410
Speaker 15: there's been a million instances of that and a million different,

2353
02:28:33,050 --> 02:28:35,950
Speaker 15: you know, ways that Palestinians have tried to tell their story.

2354
02:28:36,090 --> 02:28:40,090
Speaker 1: And this is now, unfortunately, a horrific part of that story.

2355
02:28:51,160 --> 02:28:51,940
Speaker 2: Finally, for today.

2356
02:28:52,500 --> 02:28:53,680
Speaker 14: The publication Current History.

2357
02:28:53,810 --> 02:28:53,939
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2358
02:28:54,360 --> 02:28:57,090
Speaker 14: And an essay titled When Health is the Target, Violence,

2359
02:28:57,129 --> 02:29:01,490
Speaker 14: Restriction and Neglect in Palestine. You examine the systematic degradation

2360
02:29:01,510 --> 02:29:04,410
Speaker 14: of the health care infrastructure that's long been used, as

2361
02:29:04,430 --> 02:29:06,930
Speaker 14: we've been saying, like as a political and military tool

2362
02:29:06,990 --> 02:29:09,050
Speaker 14: against Palestinians. And you describe a lot of the tactics

2363
02:29:09,070 --> 02:29:10,990
Speaker 14: we just talked about. But could you explain to us

2364
02:29:11,030 --> 02:29:14,810
Speaker 14: specifically in this last part what de-development means and how

2365
02:29:14,870 --> 02:29:15,990
Speaker 14: Israel is pursuing that goal?

2366
02:29:16,990 --> 02:29:17,910
Speaker 1: Yes, definitely.

2367
02:29:18,330 --> 02:29:22,830
Speaker 15: And so de-development is kind of been, especially as it

2368
02:29:22,870 --> 02:29:27,460
Speaker 15: refers to specifically Palestinians, and especially in the Gaza Strip,

2369
02:29:27,500 --> 02:29:31,580
Speaker 15: was a term coined by political economist Sarah Roy, which

2370
02:29:31,640 --> 02:29:37,060
Speaker 15: described not an underdevelopment, which you would see with, you know,

2371
02:29:37,300 --> 02:29:40,490
Speaker 15: lack of money, lack of financial ability to build better things,

2372
02:29:40,570 --> 02:29:45,480
Speaker 15: to do more, but an active de-development, which basically placed

2373
02:29:45,600 --> 02:29:48,490
Speaker 15: a ceiling on the level of development that Palestinians had.

2374
02:29:48,570 --> 02:29:51,410
Speaker 15: So it wasn't suddenly about how much aid was coming

2375
02:29:51,530 --> 02:29:55,030
Speaker 15: in or how educated Palestinians are. Do you have the

2376
02:29:55,070 --> 02:29:57,470
Speaker 15: specialists that can do this or that? Do you have

2377
02:29:57,670 --> 02:30:00,920
Speaker 15: college educated people? As we know, Palestinians are among the

2378
02:30:00,959 --> 02:30:04,199
Speaker 15: most educated populations in the Middle East. Lack of skill

2379
02:30:04,220 --> 02:30:09,000
Speaker 15: was never an issue. But through primarily this system of

2380
02:30:09,400 --> 02:30:13,350
Speaker 15: movement restrictions, import restrictions, preventing the movement of people in

2381
02:30:13,390 --> 02:30:17,810
Speaker 15: and out of Palestinian territory, Israel has been able to de-develop.

2382
02:30:18,250 --> 02:30:19,230
Speaker 2: First, Dr.

2383
02:30:19,290 --> 02:30:23,300
Speaker 15: Roy referred to this in the Palestinian economy. So Palestinians

2384
02:30:23,400 --> 02:30:26,310
Speaker 15: used to have a you know, it was a small territory,

2385
02:30:26,330 --> 02:30:30,550
Speaker 15: but a relatively important role in, you know, importing olives

2386
02:30:30,650 --> 02:30:34,530
Speaker 15: and olive oil and olive soap. Gaza had its strawberries,

2387
02:30:34,570 --> 02:30:37,880
Speaker 15: you know, Jaffa had its oranges. It was a country,

2388
02:30:38,090 --> 02:30:41,860
Speaker 15: it was a place, I suppose, that was active in

2389
02:30:41,920 --> 02:30:44,040
Speaker 15: terms of a global market.

2390
02:30:44,860 --> 02:30:46,580
Speaker 1: And through first.

2391
02:30:46,360 --> 02:30:48,760
Speaker 15: The Nekba and the establishment of the state of Israel,

2392
02:30:48,800 --> 02:30:52,460
Speaker 15: but especially through the occupation of And then, of course,

2393
02:30:52,540 --> 02:30:56,539
Speaker 15: through the economic restrictions of Oslo, Israel has been able

2394
02:30:56,580 --> 02:31:01,220
Speaker 15: to essentially, with a metaphorical dial, control how the Palestinian

2395
02:31:01,260 --> 02:31:06,310
Speaker 15: economy could grow. And by preventing, you know, collecting taxes,

2396
02:31:06,410 --> 02:31:10,870
Speaker 15: withholding taxes, preventing import of goods. So, you know, you

2397
02:31:10,910 --> 02:31:13,200
Speaker 15: want to be an entrepreneur now. How are you going

2398
02:31:13,240 --> 02:31:15,860
Speaker 15: to import the goods that you're going to sell? How

2399
02:31:15,879 --> 02:31:18,099
Speaker 15: are you going to export the goods that you create?

2400
02:31:18,540 --> 02:31:21,860
Speaker 15: And we started seeing this across sectors, the agricultural sector.

2401
02:31:22,220 --> 02:31:25,440
Speaker 15: Palestinians couldn't import the fertilizer and the seeds that they needed.

2402
02:31:26,000 --> 02:31:29,000
Speaker 15: They were, you know, the land was getting smaller and smaller.

2403
02:31:29,120 --> 02:31:32,520
Speaker 15: So what we're seeing in the Palestinian health care system

2404
02:31:32,800 --> 02:31:37,019
Speaker 15: is this same de-development phenomenon. How it's enacted in the

2405
02:31:37,060 --> 02:31:41,620
Speaker 15: health sector is in a multitude of ways. So they

2406
02:31:41,740 --> 02:31:46,820
Speaker 15: prevent literal building materials from entering the territories, particularly Gaza.

2407
02:31:46,840 --> 02:31:50,340
Speaker 15: I mean, we're talking cement, we're talking wires, pipes. They

2408
02:31:50,379 --> 02:31:54,120
Speaker 15: prevent import of those materials that would build the infrastructure

2409
02:31:54,170 --> 02:31:57,080
Speaker 15: that we need. But of course, infrastructure is not all

2410
02:31:57,100 --> 02:32:00,490
Speaker 15: the health system needs. You need educated staff and providers.

2411
02:32:00,990 --> 02:32:03,950
Speaker 15: They have limited the types, especially in the Gaza Strip,

2412
02:32:04,010 --> 02:32:07,670
Speaker 15: of specialties that medical schools can teach because they simply

2413
02:32:07,709 --> 02:32:09,570
Speaker 15: don't have the equipment or they don't have the staff

2414
02:32:10,160 --> 02:32:12,600
Speaker 15: Then they prevent Palestinians from being able to leave to

2415
02:32:12,640 --> 02:32:14,980
Speaker 15: get that training and then return to the Gaza Strip.

2416
02:32:15,000 --> 02:32:19,140
Speaker 15: So part of what has been so horrific to witness

2417
02:32:19,200 --> 02:32:21,689
Speaker 15: in Gaza is not just the killing of health workers,

2418
02:32:21,750 --> 02:32:26,949
Speaker 15: but so many of them who had experience, who were specialists,

2419
02:32:27,290 --> 02:32:31,050
Speaker 15: who had gotten training in Switzerland or Saudi Arabia or somewhere,

2420
02:32:31,150 --> 02:32:33,970
Speaker 15: come back to Gaza. Now what we're seeing in Gaza

2421
02:32:34,050 --> 02:32:36,390
Speaker 15: is of the remaining health care system, a lot of

2422
02:32:36,450 --> 02:32:38,250
Speaker 15: it is new graduates or trainees.

2423
02:32:39,040 --> 02:32:39,699
Speaker 1: You have lost.

2424
02:32:40,080 --> 02:32:44,980
Speaker 15: decades upon decades of experience, of wisdom, heads of departments,

2425
02:32:45,459 --> 02:32:47,820
Speaker 15: deans of medical schools, you know, these people that kind

2426
02:32:47,860 --> 02:32:51,560
Speaker 15: of had the infrastructural knowledge and know-how and knew how

2427
02:32:51,580 --> 02:32:54,120
Speaker 15: to make things work and knew how to connect people together.

2428
02:32:54,780 --> 02:32:58,080
Speaker 15: You strip all that away, you have a quote-unquote health system,

2429
02:32:58,490 --> 02:33:00,190
Speaker 15: but it's very limited in what it can do. In

2430
02:33:01,050 --> 02:33:04,350
Speaker 15: the Gaza Strip, you had limitations on import of PET

2431
02:33:04,390 --> 02:33:07,580
Speaker 15: scanners and CT scanners and because of the argument that

2432
02:33:07,620 --> 02:33:11,800
Speaker 15: Hamas could use materials from that equipment to dot, dot, dot,

2433
02:33:12,100 --> 02:33:13,240
Speaker 15: security risk, right?

2434
02:33:13,320 --> 02:33:14,100
Speaker 1: Don't ask questions.

2435
02:33:14,730 --> 02:33:18,070
Speaker 15: We've seen a limited amount of import in the West Bank.

2436
02:33:18,670 --> 02:33:21,449
Speaker 15: In the West Bank, we also see destruction of ambulances.

2437
02:33:21,550 --> 02:33:22,730
Speaker 1: Attacks on paramedics.

2438
02:33:22,810 --> 02:33:26,450
Speaker 15: Paramedics of the Palestinian Red Crescent are now wearing bulletproof vests.

2439
02:33:27,050 --> 02:33:30,110
Speaker 15: We're seeing, as you noted, ambulances and other people stopped

2440
02:33:30,170 --> 02:33:33,590
Speaker 15: at checkpoints. There have been hundreds of births by birthing

2441
02:33:33,640 --> 02:33:36,180
Speaker 15: mothers at checkpoints who were on their way to the hospital.

2442
02:33:36,900 --> 02:33:39,520
Speaker 15: I include as part of the de-development of the health sector,

2443
02:33:39,560 --> 02:33:43,900
Speaker 15: the kind of environmental degradation. So health includes your.

2444
02:33:43,780 --> 02:33:46,310
Speaker 1: Ability to eat good, nutritious, clean food.

2445
02:33:46,790 --> 02:33:49,190
Speaker 15: It includes your ability to drink water. You know, the

2446
02:33:49,209 --> 02:33:52,990
Speaker 15: West Bank is under significant water restrictions at all times, essentially.

2447
02:33:53,050 --> 02:33:55,390
Speaker 15: And in the Gaza Strip, there's very little clean water,

2448
02:33:55,629 --> 02:33:58,769
Speaker 15: even prior to the genocide. It's something like 95% of

2449
02:33:58,800 --> 02:34:01,860
Speaker 15: the water was non-potable and had to go through different

2450
02:34:01,940 --> 02:34:05,990
Speaker 15: treatment facilities. You know, sewage in the streets, lack of

2451
02:34:06,070 --> 02:34:08,470
Speaker 15: public services. I mean, I could really go on and on.

2452
02:34:08,590 --> 02:34:14,090
Speaker 15: So through its system of deprivation and restriction, Israel has

2453
02:34:14,209 --> 02:34:18,930
Speaker 15: essentially created a health care system that is never operating

2454
02:34:18,980 --> 02:34:21,860
Speaker 15: at 100 percent. So even when the WHO talks about

2455
02:34:21,980 --> 02:34:25,900
Speaker 15: fully functional Palestinian hospitals, there was still so much they

2456
02:34:25,940 --> 02:34:29,700
Speaker 15: could not do that their colleagues in Jordan or Lebanon

2457
02:34:29,800 --> 02:34:33,119
Speaker 15: or Syria or any other country, even in the region,

2458
02:34:33,400 --> 02:34:36,280
Speaker 15: can do simply because they can get the tools, they

2459
02:34:36,310 --> 02:34:39,030
Speaker 15: can get the specialists, they can get the skills. It's

2460
02:34:39,090 --> 02:34:41,930
Speaker 15: not a matter of, again, more money. We don't need

2461
02:34:42,070 --> 02:34:46,990
Speaker 15: more humanitarian agencies on the ground. It's Israeli restrictions that

2462
02:34:47,030 --> 02:34:50,910
Speaker 15: are purposefully kind of creating this environment where there is

2463
02:34:50,950 --> 02:34:53,070
Speaker 15: a ceiling to how well the health system can do.

2464
02:34:53,190 --> 02:34:56,300
Speaker 15: And so the kind of pressure valve for that was

2465
02:34:56,320 --> 02:34:59,840
Speaker 15: the medical permits. So a huge part of the Palestinian

2466
02:34:59,860 --> 02:35:03,970
Speaker 15: Authority's budget towards the health ministry was paying for Palestinians

2467
02:35:04,090 --> 02:35:08,010
Speaker 15: to leave Palestine and in some cases get care in Israel.

2468
02:35:08,390 --> 02:35:11,150
Speaker 1: So, I mean, think about the logic of that.

2469
02:35:11,209 --> 02:35:14,610
Speaker 15: You have a struggling health system and sometimes your best

2470
02:35:14,750 --> 02:35:16,630
Speaker 15: option for patients is to.

2471
02:35:16,750 --> 02:35:18,970
Speaker 14: Pay your occupier. Exactly.

2472
02:35:19,050 --> 02:35:22,580
Speaker 1: Pay the occupying power. or pay the Jordanians.

2473
02:35:22,600 --> 02:35:26,220
Speaker 15: You know, Jordan has an entire corridor for Palestinian patients

2474
02:35:26,280 --> 02:35:29,500
Speaker 15: because it takes so many of them. Similar, Egypt has

2475
02:35:29,680 --> 02:35:33,869
Speaker 15: specific hospitals that are well-known for taking Palestinian patients. Much

2476
02:35:33,910 --> 02:35:36,789
Speaker 15: of the East Jerusalem Hospital Network, which used to be

2477
02:35:36,830 --> 02:35:39,990
Speaker 15: the heart, the beating heart of the Palestinian healthcare system,

2478
02:35:40,590 --> 02:35:44,410
Speaker 15: was severed from the West Bank, especially after the second intifada.

2479
02:35:44,770 --> 02:35:46,880
Speaker 1: And now Palestinians, even that live in.

2480
02:35:46,920 --> 02:35:50,940
Speaker 15: Ramallah or Bethlehem that are, what, 45 minutes away, it

2481
02:35:51,480 --> 02:35:54,160
Speaker 15: takes weeks or months of waiting to get a permit.

2482
02:35:54,340 --> 02:35:55,920
Speaker 1: And then it's not just you that needs a permit.

2483
02:35:55,959 --> 02:35:57,270
Speaker 1: Let's say you're sick.

2484
02:35:57,550 --> 02:35:59,990
Speaker 15: Maybe you want your partner to come with you, or

2485
02:36:00,010 --> 02:36:02,209
Speaker 15: maybe you want your mother to come with you, or

2486
02:36:02,230 --> 02:36:05,369
Speaker 15: maybe your child is sick and they need you, of course,

2487
02:36:05,410 --> 02:36:09,010
Speaker 15: to come with you. Israel also controls the companion permits.

2488
02:36:09,090 --> 02:36:11,230
Speaker 15: And sometimes that is an entirely separate process. And then

2489
02:36:11,250 --> 02:36:13,609
Speaker 15: you need a permit for every visit. So there is

2490
02:36:13,629 --> 02:36:16,630
Speaker 15: not a single aspect of health care, whether it's in

2491
02:36:16,670 --> 02:36:21,769
Speaker 15: a Palestinian hospital, in Palestinian territory, broadly speaking, or needing

2492
02:36:21,810 --> 02:36:24,340
Speaker 15: to leave Palestine to get care somewhere else that Israel

2493
02:36:24,379 --> 02:36:29,420
Speaker 15: has not actively developed through deprivation and restriction. And so

2494
02:36:29,459 --> 02:36:31,820
Speaker 15: that is what we talk about when we say it's

2495
02:36:31,860 --> 02:36:34,930
Speaker 15: not just, oh, this is a war-torn country and if

2496
02:36:35,050 --> 02:36:37,550
Speaker 15: only they had more aid, if only they had more

2497
02:36:37,830 --> 02:36:39,930
Speaker 15: this and that, things would be better. No, this is

2498
02:36:39,950 --> 02:36:45,410
Speaker 15: a artificial situation policy created by the Israeli state. And

2499
02:36:45,690 --> 02:36:48,220
Speaker 15: I mean, I guess fortunately for us, they've only become

2500
02:36:48,300 --> 02:36:51,260
Speaker 15: more explicit about saying what their goals are, which is this,

2501
02:36:51,760 --> 02:36:55,340
Speaker 15: what they're calling voluntary immigration, but is essentially kicking Palestinians

2502
02:36:55,379 --> 02:36:56,640
Speaker 15: out of the land so that they can take it.

2503
02:36:57,160 --> 02:37:02,760
Speaker 15: And they have utilized every sector, education, agriculture, economy, and health,

2504
02:37:03,350 --> 02:37:07,610
Speaker 15: to enact that goal. And by public surveys and by

2505
02:37:07,660 --> 02:37:11,560
Speaker 15: what we're seeing, it is successful. There have been hundreds

2506
02:37:11,600 --> 02:37:14,200
Speaker 15: of villages ethnically cleansed in the West Bank in just

2507
02:37:14,240 --> 02:37:17,660
Speaker 15: the past few years. More than, what, 60% of the

2508
02:37:17,700 --> 02:37:20,910
Speaker 15: Gaza Strip is now basically inaccessible to people in Gaza.

2509
02:37:21,600 --> 02:37:22,770
Speaker 1: And we have.

2510
02:37:22,730 --> 02:37:26,830
Speaker 15: Seen polls of younger Palestinians who are saying, I can't

2511
02:37:27,110 --> 02:37:27,510
Speaker 15: do this.

2512
02:37:27,750 --> 02:37:29,050
Speaker 1: I can't live here anymore.

2513
02:37:29,270 --> 02:37:32,450
Speaker 15: If an opportunity comes for me to go somewhere else,

2514
02:37:32,500 --> 02:37:34,359
Speaker 15: to study somewhere else, to get a job somewhere else,

2515
02:37:34,480 --> 02:37:37,840
Speaker 15: I'm going to take it. And this is the voluntary

2516
02:37:37,940 --> 02:37:41,360
Speaker 15: quote-unquote immigration that the Israeli authorities are talking about, making

2517
02:37:41,459 --> 02:37:46,560
Speaker 15: life so difficult such that Anything you need is a challenge.

2518
02:37:46,879 --> 02:37:49,600
Speaker 15: Every journey when you leave your house is a question.

2519
02:37:49,930 --> 02:37:52,550
Speaker 15: Will I come home? How long will it take? You know,

2520
02:37:52,610 --> 02:37:54,170
Speaker 15: my son wants to go to a wedding in a

2521
02:37:54,209 --> 02:37:57,449
Speaker 15: neighboring village. What will happen to him? I'm having, you know,

2522
02:37:57,550 --> 02:38:00,060
Speaker 15: cramping while I'm pregnant. Should I go to the hospital

2523
02:38:00,120 --> 02:38:01,760
Speaker 15: and risk it or should I just stay home and

2524
02:38:01,780 --> 02:38:02,500
Speaker 15: see what happens?

2525
02:38:02,890 --> 02:38:04,820
Speaker 1: I mean, just think about like the daily stress and

2526
02:38:04,879 --> 02:38:06,060
Speaker 1: decision Palestinians.

2527
02:38:06,320 --> 02:38:06,839
Speaker 5: The grind.

2528
02:38:07,400 --> 02:38:10,320
Speaker 1: It's unimaginable. And, you know, I haven't even talked about

2529
02:38:10,360 --> 02:38:11,720
Speaker 1: mental health yet with you.

2530
02:38:11,740 --> 02:38:12,020
Speaker 14: I know.

2531
02:38:12,120 --> 02:38:14,280
Speaker 1: I mean, that's a whole other aspect of it.

2532
02:38:14,709 --> 02:38:16,810
Speaker 14: We need you back on a different episode. Just like

2533
02:38:16,870 --> 02:38:19,050
Speaker 14: talk through like every single aspect of this, because it's

2534
02:38:19,090 --> 02:38:22,750
Speaker 14: like I am Palestinian. I was born in Columbia Hospital.

2535
02:38:23,790 --> 02:38:26,990
Speaker 14: I lived there. And I still can't fathom how bad

2536
02:38:27,010 --> 02:38:31,090
Speaker 14: it has gotten. I don't understand how people are living.

2537
02:38:31,300 --> 02:38:34,380
Speaker 14: I don't understand. They've been under attack to this level.

2538
02:38:35,379 --> 02:38:38,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say, you know, my family is primarily

2539
02:38:38,879 --> 02:38:40,680
Speaker 1: in the north, in and around Nablus.

2540
02:38:40,820 --> 02:38:43,040
Speaker 15: And I mean, some of the elders in my family,

2541
02:38:43,060 --> 02:38:45,440
Speaker 15: you know, they, and I've said this many times lately,

2542
02:38:45,520 --> 02:38:48,650
Speaker 15: they lived through 67. They remember the jets flying over

2543
02:38:48,680 --> 02:38:51,550
Speaker 15: the village. They lived through the first Intifada. They lived

2544
02:38:51,570 --> 02:38:55,770
Speaker 15: through Oslo. They lived through the Second Intifada. Without exception,

2545
02:38:56,570 --> 02:38:59,910
Speaker 15: they are reporting that now is the worst I can remember.

2546
02:39:00,730 --> 02:39:03,550
Speaker 15: And for the first time, because as you know, it's

2547
02:39:03,570 --> 02:39:08,830
Speaker 15: like a very Palestinian, you know, Samud, right? I would

2548
02:39:08,910 --> 02:39:11,630
Speaker 15: rather stay and die on this land than go somewhere else.

2549
02:39:11,670 --> 02:39:14,110
Speaker 14: That is like such a- A rally and cry, yeah.

2550
02:39:14,330 --> 02:39:17,070
Speaker 15: Cultural thing to grow up with. But for the first time,

2551
02:39:17,129 --> 02:39:20,320
Speaker 15: they're saying, I don't know if we can expect the

2552
02:39:20,360 --> 02:39:23,980
Speaker 15: next generations to do what we did. No one's getting paid.

2553
02:39:24,000 --> 02:39:26,920
Speaker 15: And if you are getting paid, there's very little to buy.

2554
02:39:26,940 --> 02:39:29,580
Speaker 15: And if you can buy something, you worry about going

2555
02:39:29,620 --> 02:39:32,320
Speaker 15: to the store. I mean, it's every level of life.

2556
02:39:33,000 --> 02:39:36,170
Speaker 15: And imagine raising a child, trying to go to work. And,

2557
02:39:36,430 --> 02:39:39,270
Speaker 15: you know, the settlers, just the knowledge that they are

2558
02:39:39,709 --> 02:39:44,090
Speaker 15: out there. People are so terrified of going anywhere. I mean,

2559
02:39:44,150 --> 02:39:46,930
Speaker 15: not even leaving the village or the town, leaving your house.

2560
02:39:47,050 --> 02:39:49,580
Speaker 15: If you live near a settlement, leaving your house is

2561
02:39:49,640 --> 02:39:50,060
Speaker 15: a threat.

2562
02:39:50,300 --> 02:39:50,519
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2563
02:39:51,140 --> 02:39:52,879
Speaker 14: And they'll come to your house too. Like, don't worry

2564
02:39:52,900 --> 02:39:54,580
Speaker 14: about it. You stay in your house, they'll also come.

2565
02:39:55,140 --> 02:39:55,400
Speaker 6: Right.

2566
02:39:56,940 --> 02:39:57,160
Speaker 11: Yeah.

2567
02:39:57,400 --> 02:39:59,900
Speaker 14: It's very bleak. I apologize that we ended on such

2568
02:39:59,940 --> 02:40:03,140
Speaker 14: a bleak note, but this is really the reality facing Palestinians.

2569
02:40:03,560 --> 02:40:04,310
Speaker 1: No, it's important.

2570
02:40:04,860 --> 02:40:08,000
Speaker 14: Yeah. And I really appreciate your time breaking all this

2571
02:40:08,040 --> 02:40:11,000
Speaker 14: down for us, that this is such a crisis on

2572
02:40:11,100 --> 02:40:14,690
Speaker 14: so many levels. But yes, like health, like human health

2573
02:40:14,790 --> 02:40:18,770
Speaker 14: and the human condition is so under attack in both territories.

2574
02:40:19,390 --> 02:40:21,129
Speaker 14: But thank you so much, Yadav, for your time. I

2575
02:40:21,150 --> 02:40:21,850
Speaker 14: really appreciate it.

2576
02:40:22,629 --> 02:40:25,350
Speaker 15: No, thank you for having me and for asking, you know,

2577
02:40:25,410 --> 02:40:28,580
Speaker 15: I think such detailed questions so that we can... I mean,

2578
02:40:28,820 --> 02:40:31,660
Speaker 15: I feel like we've barely scratched the surface, but hopefully

2579
02:40:31,820 --> 02:40:34,900
Speaker 15: your audience has a good look at just how holistic

2580
02:40:34,980 --> 02:40:39,840
Speaker 15: and comprehensive the current emergency is. You know, we're past

2581
02:40:39,879 --> 02:40:42,400
Speaker 15: the point of, is this a humanitarian crisis? What is

2582
02:40:42,420 --> 02:40:45,580
Speaker 15: the political solution? This is an existential crisis for Palestinians

2583
02:40:45,620 --> 02:40:48,100
Speaker 15: at this point. And what happens in the next few

2584
02:40:48,150 --> 02:40:51,830
Speaker 15: years will, I think, really determine what happens to us

2585
02:40:52,030 --> 02:40:52,529
Speaker 15: as a people.

2586
02:40:52,970 --> 02:40:57,930
Speaker 14: Yeah, no, I agree and hope that it isn't too late.

2587
02:40:58,570 --> 02:40:58,730
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2588
02:40:59,470 --> 02:40:59,970
Speaker 14: Thank you again.

2589
02:41:00,670 --> 02:41:01,529
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.

2590
02:41:14,150 --> 02:41:17,930
Speaker 10: This is It Could Happen Here, Executive Disorder, our weekly

2591
02:41:17,970 --> 02:41:20,890
Speaker 10: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

2592
02:41:20,930 --> 02:41:23,849
Speaker 10: and what this means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today

2593
02:41:23,870 --> 02:41:27,560
Speaker 10: I'm joined by Robert Evans, James Stout, and Mia Wong.

2594
02:41:28,220 --> 02:41:31,800
Speaker 10: The whole gang back together. This episode, we are covering

2595
02:41:31,900 --> 02:41:36,200
Speaker 10: the week of September 30th to October 7th. James, I

2596
02:41:36,240 --> 02:41:39,440
Speaker 10: think you can take it away with your barrage of news.

2597
02:41:40,060 --> 02:41:40,359
Speaker 2: All right.

2598
02:41:40,379 --> 02:41:42,770
Speaker 17: So, yeah, we've got a lot of small things this week.

2599
02:41:43,170 --> 02:41:46,350
Speaker 17: Another person has died in ICE custody, making this the

2600
02:41:46,470 --> 02:41:51,090
Speaker 17: deadliest year on record with 37 reported deaths so far.

2601
02:41:51,110 --> 02:41:52,470
Speaker 2: Of course, it's only October.

2602
02:41:52,490 --> 02:41:55,699
Speaker 17: Yeah, like we're entering the final quarter of the year

2603
02:41:55,760 --> 02:42:00,610
Speaker 17: like this this week. Julian Kuro Churata died in Louisiana

2604
02:42:00,990 --> 02:42:04,369
Speaker 17: after being transported from the Richwood Correctional Center. The Richwood

2605
02:42:04,390 --> 02:42:07,109
Speaker 17: Correctional Center has a long and dark history of neglect

2606
02:42:07,510 --> 02:42:08,510
Speaker 17: and even homicide.

2607
02:42:08,530 --> 02:42:10,490
Speaker 2: I've linked to an article about that in the show notes.

2608
02:42:11,410 --> 02:42:14,529
Speaker 17: This week, the president suggested in a rally that it

2609
02:42:14,610 --> 02:42:17,849
Speaker 17: would be acceptable for him to allow Iran to bomb

2610
02:42:17,930 --> 02:42:19,629
Speaker 17: San Diego and Los Angeles.

2611
02:42:19,930 --> 02:42:20,910
Speaker 2: A small price to pay.

2612
02:42:21,310 --> 02:42:23,470
Speaker 17: Yeah, I remain neutral on the issue of Los Angeles,

2613
02:42:23,550 --> 02:42:26,519
Speaker 17: but we're not having that in San Diego. He's not

2614
02:42:26,540 --> 02:42:30,200
Speaker 17: so much remarkable. He always says crazy shit, right? His rallies,

2615
02:42:30,240 --> 02:42:32,920
Speaker 17: he just goes on a wild one. But like, what's remarkable,

2616
02:42:32,940 --> 02:42:34,500
Speaker 17: I think, is a response of the administration.

2617
02:42:34,980 --> 02:42:36,860
Speaker 16: It is itself a kind of interesting thing for a

2618
02:42:36,900 --> 02:42:40,660
Speaker 16: president to say. It is a remarkable choice in the

2619
02:42:40,700 --> 02:42:41,740
Speaker 16: months before an election.

2620
02:42:42,379 --> 02:42:43,199
Speaker 6: It's a little bit high.

2621
02:42:43,660 --> 02:42:47,020
Speaker 12: It's a small price to pay for keeping the world safe,

2622
02:42:47,040 --> 02:42:48,220
Speaker 12: keeping our country safe.

2623
02:42:48,260 --> 02:42:49,480
Speaker 2: They can take out a city.

2624
02:42:50,160 --> 02:42:52,910
Speaker 9: Let them take out Los Angeles.

2625
02:42:52,940 --> 02:42:54,490
Speaker 14: Let them take out San Diego.

2626
02:42:58,980 --> 02:43:02,529
Speaker 16: The cheering is what's also very interesting. I'm looking at

2627
02:43:02,570 --> 02:43:06,310
Speaker 16: the faces of the people immediately behind him. They're turning

2628
02:43:06,330 --> 02:43:08,689
Speaker 16: to each other. Yeah, they all look a little confused.

2629
02:43:09,129 --> 02:43:12,420
Speaker 17: I'm going to read a post from Rapid Response 47.

2630
02:43:12,400 --> 02:43:15,240
Speaker 17: It's one of the White House associated Twitter accounts. The

2631
02:43:15,400 --> 02:43:17,460
Speaker 17: LA Times had said that the Trump had suggested it

2632
02:43:17,480 --> 02:43:19,500
Speaker 17: would be okay to take out Los Angeles or San

2633
02:43:19,520 --> 02:43:22,880
Speaker 17: Diego because that is a phrase that he said. Quote, no,

2634
02:43:22,920 --> 02:43:25,039
Speaker 17: he didn't, you buffoons. He was saying the US is

2635
02:43:25,060 --> 02:43:27,490
Speaker 17: fighting to stop Iran from having the ability to take

2636
02:43:27,520 --> 02:43:30,269
Speaker 17: out LA and San Diego with a nuclear weapon, which

2637
02:43:30,290 --> 02:43:31,550
Speaker 17: they would if they had the chance.

2638
02:43:32,530 --> 02:43:35,650
Speaker 2: That's not true. That's just not what Trump said. That's

2639
02:43:35,670 --> 02:43:36,570
Speaker 2: just very clearly.

2640
02:43:36,910 --> 02:43:40,290
Speaker 10: And this isn't taken out of context. He was saying

2641
02:43:40,330 --> 02:43:45,680
Speaker 10: that if Iran nuked, Los Angeles or San Diego, that

2642
02:43:45,700 --> 02:43:47,980
Speaker 10: would be a small price to pay for us to

2643
02:43:48,020 --> 02:43:50,480
Speaker 10: beat Iran, for us to then destroy Iran.

2644
02:43:50,700 --> 02:43:54,320
Speaker 16: That's what he's saying. He was previously talking about gas prices. Yes,

2645
02:43:54,379 --> 02:43:57,690
Speaker 16: there's no other context. He was saying it would be

2646
02:43:57,709 --> 02:44:00,490
Speaker 16: awesome if this liberal city was wiped off the face

2647
02:44:00,530 --> 02:44:01,870
Speaker 16: of the earth because it would let us do what

2648
02:44:01,910 --> 02:44:02,990
Speaker 16: we're going to do already.

2649
02:44:03,370 --> 02:44:05,090
Speaker 17: We also have, like most of the Pacific fleet, a

2650
02:44:05,110 --> 02:44:08,449
Speaker 17: massive Marine Corps base, fucking nuclear submarines. It would be

2651
02:44:08,480 --> 02:44:10,879
Speaker 17: very inconvenient for the United States if we lost San Diego.

2652
02:44:10,980 --> 02:44:14,110
Speaker 17: But Yeah, there's this line in 1984, the party told

2653
02:44:14,129 --> 02:44:16,260
Speaker 17: you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears.

2654
02:44:16,540 --> 02:44:18,820
Speaker 2: It was their final, most essential command. No, he didn't,

2655
02:44:18,900 --> 02:44:19,920
Speaker 2: you buffoons.

2656
02:44:20,240 --> 02:44:23,220
Speaker 17: Yeah, people love to be fucking wrong about George Orwell.

2657
02:44:23,300 --> 02:44:25,400
Speaker 17: It is the bane of my existence. This is an

2658
02:44:25,540 --> 02:44:28,890
Speaker 17: excellent time to be quoting 1984 by George Orwell, because

2659
02:44:28,970 --> 02:44:30,730
Speaker 17: this is the kind of shit it is about.

2660
02:44:31,570 --> 02:44:32,090
Speaker 16: Moving on.

2661
02:44:32,110 --> 02:44:35,550
Speaker 17: A lawsuit in Texas has stopped the border wall construction,

2662
02:44:35,930 --> 02:44:37,650
Speaker 17: not just in Big Bend National Park, but also in

2663
02:44:37,670 --> 02:44:38,590
Speaker 17: the region at large.

2664
02:44:38,709 --> 02:44:39,050
Speaker 4: Oh, wow.

2665
02:44:39,290 --> 02:44:40,750
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. People seem a little.

2666
02:44:42,530 --> 02:44:45,730
Speaker 17: Border wall construction is still ongoing in other places. There

2667
02:44:45,790 --> 02:44:48,950
Speaker 17: are other areas where there are still waivers for land protections.

2668
02:44:48,990 --> 02:44:50,190
Speaker 2: Which they're still using.

2669
02:44:50,209 --> 02:44:52,650
Speaker 17: And I think it's worth noting that the ultimate victory

2670
02:44:52,690 --> 02:44:54,930
Speaker 17: is at a temporary pause in the wall, right? The

2671
02:44:55,010 --> 02:44:59,430
Speaker 17: ultimate victory is the wall comes down and the land

2672
02:44:59,500 --> 02:45:01,879
Speaker 17: is restored as best it can be. Like this wall

2673
02:45:01,930 --> 02:45:04,680
Speaker 17: is still doing damage. The construction has still done damage.

2674
02:45:05,520 --> 02:45:07,820
Speaker 17: And I think sometimes people get a little lost in

2675
02:45:07,840 --> 02:45:10,119
Speaker 17: the source, but it's still a good thing. United States

2676
02:45:10,160 --> 02:45:14,310
Speaker 17: troops have completed their withdrawal from Iraq. leaving the Kurdistan

2677
02:45:14,330 --> 02:45:17,230
Speaker 17: region of Iraq especially vulnerable without the air defence that

2678
02:45:17,270 --> 02:45:19,810
Speaker 17: it's relied on so heavily. Since February, there have been

2679
02:45:19,830 --> 02:45:25,210
Speaker 17: a thousand drone and missile attacks on Kurdistan. Following this withdrawal,

2680
02:45:25,230 --> 02:45:28,430
Speaker 17: there was an Islamic State attack in Kirkuk last night.

2681
02:45:28,590 --> 02:45:31,440
Speaker 17: It looks like they attacked a PMF position and killed

2682
02:45:31,520 --> 02:45:34,900
Speaker 17: one person, but they already claim responsibility for destroying a

2683
02:45:35,080 --> 02:45:35,900
Speaker 17: thermal camera.

2684
02:45:36,260 --> 02:45:39,580
Speaker 2: Can you explain what the PMF is? Yeah, a popular.

2685
02:45:39,280 --> 02:45:42,310
Speaker 17: Mobilization forces, like militia that was mobilized to fight the

2686
02:45:42,350 --> 02:45:43,030
Speaker 17: Islamic State.

2687
02:45:43,370 --> 02:45:43,630
Speaker 11: Right.

2688
02:45:43,970 --> 02:45:46,949
Speaker 16: In the fighting against ISIS in Mosul, you had like

2689
02:45:47,070 --> 02:45:50,670
Speaker 16: two primary, like non-state militias. There was the Peshmerga, which

2690
02:45:50,720 --> 02:45:52,600
Speaker 16: is like the Kurdish militias from the north. And then

2691
02:45:52,620 --> 02:45:55,500
Speaker 16: you had the popular mobilization forces, which were the Iranian

2692
02:45:55,540 --> 02:45:58,240
Speaker 16: backed guys. And the dudes you wanted to avoid when

2693
02:45:58,280 --> 02:46:01,700
Speaker 16: you were there, to be honest. They were not the

2694
02:46:01,740 --> 02:46:04,670
Speaker 16: least trustworthy of the Iraqi state forces.

2695
02:46:04,690 --> 02:46:04,910
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2696
02:46:05,390 --> 02:46:06,690
Speaker 2: Some of those guys run a wild one.

2697
02:46:07,090 --> 02:46:07,390
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2698
02:46:07,410 --> 02:46:10,310
Speaker 2: And remain on a wild one to this day in

2699
02:46:10,370 --> 02:46:12,790
Speaker 2: some cases. Yeah. Oh, boy.

2700
02:46:12,830 --> 02:46:14,470
Speaker 17: I know Iraq is supposed to be doing some sort

2701
02:46:14,490 --> 02:46:16,860
Speaker 17: of regularization there, but they keep pushing back the deadline

2702
02:46:16,900 --> 02:46:17,180
Speaker 17: of that.

2703
02:46:17,600 --> 02:46:18,400
Speaker 2: It's a big ask.

2704
02:46:18,640 --> 02:46:18,900
Speaker 9: It is.

2705
02:46:18,959 --> 02:46:20,680
Speaker 16: Yeah, that's a lot of people with guns who don't

2706
02:46:20,700 --> 02:46:25,120
Speaker 16: want to come back. Well, the Iraqi state has never

2707
02:46:25,379 --> 02:46:29,359
Speaker 16: in its modern incarnation managed a functional military without huge

2708
02:46:29,440 --> 02:46:33,040
Speaker 16: numbers of like non-state but state aligned militias.

2709
02:46:33,100 --> 02:46:33,340
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2710
02:46:33,480 --> 02:46:36,460
Speaker 16: And so it's just a massive change for them to make.

2711
02:46:36,560 --> 02:46:37,519
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2712
02:46:37,560 --> 02:46:40,420
Speaker 17: The monopoly they have on legitimate violence is very tenuous

2713
02:46:40,480 --> 02:46:43,070
Speaker 17: if at all. Like it's just it's just not. It's

2714
02:46:43,120 --> 02:46:44,910
Speaker 17: not the way that it is in the US. It's

2715
02:46:45,129 --> 02:46:46,690
Speaker 17: certainly not a monopoly.

2716
02:46:46,890 --> 02:46:50,410
Speaker 16: The Iraqi state is like the Microsoft of having like.

2717
02:46:50,350 --> 02:46:54,330
Speaker 2: A legitimate- Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like an oligopoly.

2718
02:46:54,890 --> 02:46:58,449
Speaker 16: There's like an Apple out there. There's an Android, right?

2719
02:46:58,470 --> 02:47:00,750
Speaker 2: Yeah, you got Samsung up in Kurdistan.

2720
02:47:00,790 --> 02:47:01,269
Speaker 10: Yeah, yeah.

2721
02:47:01,370 --> 02:47:02,300
Speaker 2: That's a good analogy.

2722
02:47:02,560 --> 02:47:02,930
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2723
02:47:03,580 --> 02:47:05,459
Speaker 17: I want to move to Spain, right? There's been a

2724
02:47:05,500 --> 02:47:07,580
Speaker 17: huge series of protests in Spain following the eviction of

2725
02:47:07,600 --> 02:47:12,520
Speaker 17: an 87-year-old woman named María del Carmen Abascal. She's known

2726
02:47:12,570 --> 02:47:15,510
Speaker 17: as Mari Carmen. It's pretty common to contract your name.

2727
02:47:16,670 --> 02:47:19,790
Speaker 17: People began occupying.

2728
02:47:19,070 --> 02:47:19,950
Speaker 2: The Puerta del Sol.

2729
02:47:20,080 --> 02:47:20,620
Speaker 6: In Madrid.

2730
02:47:21,240 --> 02:47:22,740
Speaker 17: Many of you will remember this as one of the

2731
02:47:22,780 --> 02:47:26,220
Speaker 17: very early seeds of the Occupy movement, or of the

2732
02:47:26,260 --> 02:47:27,420
Speaker 17: movement that became known.

2733
02:47:27,300 --> 02:47:28,220
Speaker 2: As the Occupy movement.

2734
02:47:29,000 --> 02:47:31,890
Speaker 17: Pedro Sanchez attempted to pass a reform package, but he

2735
02:47:31,950 --> 02:47:34,730
Speaker 17: ran up against right-wing opposition in parliament, which he then

2736
02:47:34,770 --> 02:47:37,730
Speaker 17: dissolved and called a snap general election. He has now

2737
02:47:37,790 --> 02:47:39,310
Speaker 17: proposed a new set of steps which would need to

2738
02:47:39,330 --> 02:47:43,310
Speaker 17: be ratified by an interim legislature because parliament has been dissolved, right?

2739
02:47:43,850 --> 02:47:47,370
Speaker 17: In Barcelona, over the weekend, there were huge protests. Cops

2740
02:47:47,410 --> 02:47:49,869
Speaker 17: ordered people out of the street. The protesters in Gracia,

2741
02:47:49,890 --> 02:47:52,170
Speaker 17: where I used to live, filled the streets with burning

2742
02:47:52,209 --> 02:47:54,879
Speaker 17: trash and threw stuff at the cops instead of leaving.

2743
02:47:54,900 --> 02:47:58,500
Speaker 17: You love to see it. It's so funny to me

2744
02:47:58,580 --> 02:48:00,820
Speaker 17: that I can picture the exact street that is being

2745
02:48:00,860 --> 02:48:02,920
Speaker 17: filled with burning trash because I have been there several

2746
02:48:02,980 --> 02:48:06,720
Speaker 17: times where that has been happening before. The circle of

2747
02:48:06,760 --> 02:48:10,600
Speaker 17: life continues. On the Rambla, people use construction materials to

2748
02:48:10,640 --> 02:48:13,820
Speaker 17: try and hold arguably one of the most iconic boulevards

2749
02:48:13,860 --> 02:48:17,800
Speaker 17: on the planet. It's ironic this is happening. 90 years

2750
02:48:17,840 --> 02:48:21,550
Speaker 17: and a couple of months after Catalan workers fought the

2751
02:48:21,670 --> 02:48:24,610
Speaker 17: country's army and defeated it in the same streets.

2752
02:48:25,310 --> 02:48:28,350
Speaker 16: Moving on to crocodile news. Florida crocodile. Did you guys

2753
02:48:28,370 --> 02:48:29,830
Speaker 16: know they have crocodiles in Florida?

2754
02:48:29,950 --> 02:48:31,680
Speaker 2: What now? Are you sure?

2755
02:48:31,879 --> 02:48:35,189
Speaker 17: Yeah, I've heard from Florida men and their allies on

2756
02:48:35,209 --> 02:48:35,550
Speaker 17: this one.

2757
02:48:35,910 --> 02:48:39,000
Speaker 2: It does seem they have crocodiles. James, I, I have

2758
02:48:39,020 --> 02:48:41,640
Speaker 2: heard from Florida men about this. We've all heard from

2759
02:48:41,680 --> 02:48:43,220
Speaker 2: the Floridians. Yeah, thank you.

2760
02:48:43,750 --> 02:48:48,270
Speaker 16: And let's put people in quotation marks there. We're talking Florida.

2761
02:48:49,250 --> 02:48:52,150
Speaker 2: Okay. The Floridian transgenders are cool.

2762
02:48:53,590 --> 02:48:57,260
Speaker 16: I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about people from

2763
02:48:57,300 --> 02:49:00,540
Speaker 16: the northern part of Florida. Yeah, the Florida, Georgia. People

2764
02:49:00,600 --> 02:49:01,680
Speaker 16: in quotation marks.

2765
02:49:02,020 --> 02:49:06,180
Speaker 17: Well, unfortunately, there is one less crocodile in Florida now.

2766
02:49:06,490 --> 02:49:06,670
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2767
02:49:07,450 --> 02:49:11,050
Speaker 17: Crocodile has been found dead from lead poisoning. It got

2768
02:49:11,070 --> 02:49:13,590
Speaker 17: into a pool and started behaving weirdly and had this

2769
02:49:13,650 --> 02:49:17,030
Speaker 17: kind of foul smelling, I think like vomit. And then

2770
02:49:17,420 --> 02:49:18,860
Speaker 17: they got it back into a canal and then they

2771
02:49:18,879 --> 02:49:21,440
Speaker 17: found it dead the next day. Did an autopsy and

2772
02:49:21,480 --> 02:49:24,640
Speaker 17: it had a bunch of lead in its stomach, 23

2773
02:49:24,640 --> 02:49:28,180
Speaker 17: air rifle pellets and a fishing sinker. This is important

2774
02:49:28,230 --> 02:49:30,890
Speaker 17: because like, this is a policy issue, right? Like specifically

2775
02:49:30,950 --> 02:49:34,280
Speaker 17: the use of lead projectiles for hunting. It's something that's

2776
02:49:34,440 --> 02:49:38,940
Speaker 17: been prohibited in California and in like Condor. I don't

2777
02:49:38,959 --> 02:49:40,800
Speaker 17: think it's prohibited in Condor region. I think it is

2778
02:49:40,840 --> 02:49:43,520
Speaker 17: prohibited in Condor parts of Arizona, but it's also like

2779
02:49:43,540 --> 02:49:46,360
Speaker 17: a voluntary program where they'll pay for you to have

2780
02:49:46,540 --> 02:49:49,590
Speaker 17: copper monolithic ammunition. And there's been a whole lot of

2781
02:49:49,620 --> 02:49:52,650
Speaker 17: pushback on this recently. In Florida, I know a lot

2782
02:49:52,670 --> 02:49:55,709
Speaker 17: of people hunt iguanas with air rifles, but like this

2783
02:49:55,750 --> 02:49:59,010
Speaker 17: is a very direct causal relationship that we can point

2784
02:49:59,030 --> 02:50:01,180
Speaker 17: to from like lead to dead animal. I don't know

2785
02:50:01,240 --> 02:50:03,959
Speaker 17: how commonplace this is, but I thought it was interesting

2786
02:50:04,000 --> 02:50:07,380
Speaker 17: as a relatively rarer species. I do want to get

2787
02:50:07,400 --> 02:50:10,000
Speaker 17: into depth on this, on natural causes, but I'm going

2788
02:50:10,020 --> 02:50:12,020
Speaker 17: to find some people to interview so we can be

2789
02:50:12,060 --> 02:50:15,800
Speaker 17: clear on where the science stands on that. Finally, in

2790
02:50:15,840 --> 02:50:20,440
Speaker 17: the Strait of Hormuz, Hormuz News, Iran is once again

2791
02:50:20,720 --> 02:50:24,240
Speaker 17: attacking ships with anti-ship cruise missiles, things that they still

2792
02:50:24,280 --> 02:50:27,100
Speaker 17: have despite months and months and months of the US

2793
02:50:27,140 --> 02:50:29,740
Speaker 17: trying to bomb them. I think there have been six

2794
02:50:29,920 --> 02:50:33,180
Speaker 17: attacks since the UN General Assembly happened in late September

2795
02:50:33,520 --> 02:50:35,580
Speaker 17: that were recorded on Wednesday. It seems like they've taken

2796
02:50:35,620 --> 02:50:37,900
Speaker 17: along about one a day at the minute. So there

2797
02:50:37,920 --> 02:50:39,560
Speaker 17: might be a couple more by the time.

2798
02:50:39,440 --> 02:50:39,920
Speaker 11: You hear this.

2799
02:50:40,800 --> 02:50:46,879
Speaker 10: Also this week, Paramount has closed the $ 111 billion acquisition

2800
02:50:47,120 --> 02:50:52,300
Speaker 10: of Warner Brothers, forming a new conglomerate called Skydance, which

2801
02:50:52,360 --> 02:50:55,959
Speaker 10: is the Ellison company that originally bought Paramount a few

2802
02:50:56,000 --> 02:51:00,510
Speaker 10: years back. So now both CNN and CBS are in

2803
02:51:00,650 --> 02:51:05,269
Speaker 10: control of the Ellisons. Ellison sent out a day one

2804
02:51:05,480 --> 02:51:10,360
Speaker 10: memo to all these new employees, which warned them, quote,

2805
02:51:11,040 --> 02:51:15,200
Speaker 10: integrating two companies will bring change, including difficult decisions that

2806
02:51:15,260 --> 02:51:19,980
Speaker 10: affect our workforce. Layoffs are obviously expected in the next

2807
02:51:20,060 --> 02:51:20,480
Speaker 10: few months.

2808
02:51:20,500 --> 02:51:21,300
Speaker 16: Yeah.

2809
02:51:21,730 --> 02:51:24,650
Speaker 10: The state of California was able to secure concessions such

2810
02:51:24,790 --> 02:51:26,849
Speaker 10: as a promise to release about 30 movies a year

2811
02:51:26,890 --> 02:51:31,260
Speaker 10: for five years and a $ 5 million fund for independent movies.

2812
02:51:32,180 --> 02:51:35,879
Speaker 2: Cool. That'll fix it. Yeah, this will put a dent

2813
02:51:35,940 --> 02:51:39,820
Speaker 2: in obviously the absolute and total consolidation of media in

2814
02:51:39,879 --> 02:51:43,050
Speaker 2: general of all forms into the hands of an extremely

2815
02:51:43,070 --> 02:51:44,750
Speaker 2: small number of people who absolutely suck.

2816
02:51:45,650 --> 02:51:48,250
Speaker 10: This is the worst merger that I can, like, remember

2817
02:51:48,310 --> 02:51:49,629
Speaker 10: in my life. Like, this is the worst thing that

2818
02:51:49,690 --> 02:51:51,519
Speaker 10: I can, like, see and remember as, like, a conscious

2819
02:51:51,560 --> 02:51:55,180
Speaker 10: living human. Like, the scale of this is, like, absurd.

2820
02:51:56,140 --> 02:51:57,420
Speaker 2: It shouldn't be allowed.

2821
02:51:57,720 --> 02:51:58,099
Speaker 14: Yeah.

2822
02:51:58,520 --> 02:52:01,400
Speaker 16: No, it very clearly violates antitrust. If Lena Kahn was

2823
02:52:01,600 --> 02:52:04,410
Speaker 16: in charge, this obviously wouldn't happen. No, they would have

2824
02:52:04,450 --> 02:52:07,070
Speaker 16: the Navy SEALs at the Ellison compound.

2825
02:52:07,250 --> 02:52:10,730
Speaker 2: Yeah. Hey, minimum viable 2028 program.

2826
02:52:11,129 --> 02:52:11,390
Speaker 8: Yeah.

2827
02:52:11,530 --> 02:52:15,270
Speaker 10: No, breaking up this company should become a project that

2828
02:52:15,330 --> 02:52:18,510
Speaker 10: gets promoted by people like Khan and us.

2829
02:52:18,690 --> 02:52:19,990
Speaker 2: And if we're going to have Navy SEALs, this is

2830
02:52:20,010 --> 02:52:25,320
Speaker 2: what you use them for. Yeah. The anti-Ellison SEAL division. Yeah.

2831
02:52:25,980 --> 02:52:29,640
Speaker 16: I will note that the very last Warner Brothers production

2832
02:52:29,900 --> 02:52:32,230
Speaker 16: as an independent studio was the movie Digger.

2833
02:52:32,250 --> 02:52:32,340
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2834
02:52:32,860 --> 02:52:35,480
Speaker 2: Which I've heard is actually pretty good. It is not

2835
02:52:35,560 --> 02:52:36,260
Speaker 2: doing well.

2836
02:52:36,330 --> 02:52:39,369
Speaker 16: It's a catastrophic box office bomb, but I've heard it's

2837
02:52:39,410 --> 02:52:40,779
Speaker 16: really good. I'm looking forward to seeing it.

2838
02:52:40,790 --> 02:52:42,370
Speaker 2: Very divisive film. Very divisive film.

2839
02:52:43,010 --> 02:52:45,930
Speaker 16: I'm not anti-Digger, but it is very funny that that

2840
02:52:45,990 --> 02:52:49,530
Speaker 16: is their last release, is Tom Cruise's biggest box office

2841
02:52:49,580 --> 02:52:50,840
Speaker 16: bomb in a generation.

2842
02:52:51,840 --> 02:52:55,300
Speaker 10: Obviously, David Zaslav has been, in many ways, a disaster

2843
02:52:55,600 --> 02:52:59,410
Speaker 10: for Warner Brothers, and his... his reign of the company is,

2844
02:52:59,530 --> 02:53:03,850
Speaker 10: is partially what's led them to being acquired here. But

2845
02:53:03,870 --> 02:53:07,730
Speaker 10: Warner brothers has put out a bunch of really interesting

2846
02:53:07,950 --> 02:53:10,260
Speaker 10: and good films the past few years. And the, the,

2847
02:53:10,280 --> 02:53:13,300
Speaker 10: the current batch of executives promoted and fought for those movies,

2848
02:53:13,340 --> 02:53:16,220
Speaker 10: like sinners movies, like one battle after another, uh, those

2849
02:53:16,260 --> 02:53:18,800
Speaker 10: executives are already gone. Those executives are not going to

2850
02:53:18,840 --> 02:53:23,560
Speaker 10: be sticking around David Ellison's, uh, new, new Warner brothers.

2851
02:53:23,760 --> 02:53:26,410
Speaker 10: So the, the people that brought you one battle and,

2852
02:53:26,520 --> 02:53:29,740
Speaker 10: and sinners, uh, are no longer at the helm.

2853
02:53:30,879 --> 02:53:33,060
Speaker 17: So I wanted to update everyone on what's been happening

2854
02:53:33,120 --> 02:53:35,580
Speaker 17: in Likio. If you didn't listen last week, you can

2855
02:53:35,600 --> 02:53:38,260
Speaker 17: get the very basics. But I was there last week,

2856
02:53:38,300 --> 02:53:41,800
Speaker 17: not there now. A number of people had been defending

2857
02:53:41,820 --> 02:53:45,720
Speaker 17: a pair of cottonwood trees that had once been part

2858
02:53:45,740 --> 02:53:48,840
Speaker 17: of a stand of cottonwood trees that joined canopies over

2859
02:53:48,879 --> 02:53:52,420
Speaker 17: the border. Construction workers for Fisher Sand and Gravel had

2860
02:53:52,459 --> 02:53:55,890
Speaker 17: previously dropped three of them. in their construction of the

2861
02:53:55,930 --> 02:53:59,400
Speaker 17: border wall, at which point someone had been sitting in

2862
02:53:59,420 --> 02:54:02,560
Speaker 17: the one remaining tree on the northern side. There's another

2863
02:54:02,620 --> 02:54:04,760
Speaker 17: tree which seems to be very close to or spanning

2864
02:54:04,800 --> 02:54:07,720
Speaker 17: the border, which had been sat in briefly by someone

2865
02:54:07,740 --> 02:54:10,700
Speaker 17: who'd come from the Mexican side before they came down.

2866
02:54:11,360 --> 02:54:15,560
Speaker 17: On the 5th of October, Border Patrol staged a huge

2867
02:54:15,680 --> 02:54:19,200
Speaker 17: raid on this camp. The camp, for what it's worth,

2868
02:54:19,240 --> 02:54:21,780
Speaker 17: is on private land. Generally, BP doesn't need a warrant

2869
02:54:21,800 --> 02:54:26,539
Speaker 17: to enter private land unless it's a domicile, if they're

2870
02:54:26,540 --> 02:54:28,340
Speaker 17: 25 miles or less from the border, which they were

2871
02:54:28,379 --> 02:54:30,860
Speaker 17: in this instance. So they raided the camp. They then

2872
02:54:30,920 --> 02:54:33,120
Speaker 17: came in with a cherry picker, pulled the person who

2873
02:54:33,160 --> 02:54:35,890
Speaker 17: was in the tree out of the tree, detained them,

2874
02:54:36,330 --> 02:54:39,420
Speaker 17: and then pushed over the tree with an excavator very,

2875
02:54:39,490 --> 02:54:42,250
Speaker 17: very quickly. They moved extremely fast to do this whole thing.

2876
02:54:42,690 --> 02:54:46,290
Speaker 17: They detained 10 people that day. I'm not quite sure

2877
02:54:46,390 --> 02:54:48,330
Speaker 17: what those people or if those people have been cited

2878
02:54:48,370 --> 02:54:49,110
Speaker 17: or charged yet.

2879
02:54:49,250 --> 02:54:50,590
Speaker 2: I'm still trying to get that information.

2880
02:54:51,620 --> 02:54:55,150
Speaker 17: The next day, five more people were detained and somebody

2881
02:54:55,470 --> 02:54:58,750
Speaker 17: began defending, by sitting in it, the other tree, the

2882
02:54:59,129 --> 02:55:02,570
Speaker 17: tree that straddles the border, perhaps, or the tree that

2883
02:55:02,590 --> 02:55:05,670
Speaker 17: people thought was in Mexico, but it's not exactly clear,

2884
02:55:05,690 --> 02:55:08,170
Speaker 17: like without seeing the border monuments exactly where they line up.

2885
02:55:08,940 --> 02:55:10,660
Speaker 17: The thickness of a line on a map is way

2886
02:55:10,680 --> 02:55:14,340
Speaker 17: too thick to have this kind of definition. And so currently,

2887
02:55:14,730 --> 02:55:17,650
Speaker 17: the other tree is still being defended. That doesn't mean

2888
02:55:17,670 --> 02:55:20,070
Speaker 17: the border wall construction has completely stopped. It seems they're

2889
02:55:20,090 --> 02:55:22,950
Speaker 17: working at a very frenzied pace. As we recorded on Wednesday,

2890
02:55:23,010 --> 02:55:27,550
Speaker 17: they began working overnight on Tuesday night. And what they're

2891
02:55:27,570 --> 02:55:29,830
Speaker 17: doing now is it appears that they are building... So

2892
02:55:29,850 --> 02:55:32,010
Speaker 17: this is an area where they have double barrier, right?

2893
02:55:32,110 --> 02:55:36,010
Speaker 17: Two walls about 60 foot apart. One wall just inside

2894
02:55:36,030 --> 02:55:38,789
Speaker 17: the Roosevelt Reservation, and then one wall just inside the

2895
02:55:38,830 --> 02:55:41,390
Speaker 17: United States. And then there's a road between them that

2896
02:55:41,410 --> 02:55:44,670
Speaker 17: BP can drive, right? And it kind of, it cedes

2897
02:55:45,000 --> 02:55:48,820
Speaker 17: hundreds of acres of the United States to Border Patrol control, right?

2898
02:55:49,080 --> 02:55:50,900
Speaker 17: Most of it was public land in this case, right?

2899
02:55:51,060 --> 02:55:54,959
Speaker 17: Forest Service or some of its state wildlife refuge. Some

2900
02:55:54,980 --> 02:55:59,680
Speaker 17: of it, I think BLM manages that Roosevelt Reservation, for

2901
02:55:59,700 --> 02:56:02,340
Speaker 17: what I can understand, because BLM posted notices that they

2902
02:56:02,379 --> 02:56:07,160
Speaker 17: were closing it last week. So What Border Patrol is

2903
02:56:07,220 --> 02:56:10,459
Speaker 17: now doing is building that northernmost wall first to prevent

2904
02:56:10,520 --> 02:56:13,220
Speaker 17: access to the southernmost wall. It seems that they're doing

2905
02:56:13,240 --> 02:56:15,170
Speaker 17: this at a very frenzied pace. It seems like they

2906
02:56:15,209 --> 02:56:17,130
Speaker 17: might be skipping some of this. Just from pictures I've seen,

2907
02:56:17,150 --> 02:56:20,750
Speaker 17: they might be skipping some of the usual smart wall,

2908
02:56:20,850 --> 02:56:23,830
Speaker 17: fiber optic conduit that they would put in there and

2909
02:56:23,890 --> 02:56:25,670
Speaker 17: just trying to get up a barrier as quickly as

2910
02:56:25,709 --> 02:56:29,500
Speaker 17: they can, obviously to prevent people continuing to protest. The

2911
02:56:29,540 --> 02:56:32,300
Speaker 17: protest had the permission of landowners to be on their

2912
02:56:32,340 --> 02:56:35,050
Speaker 17: land and their local sheriff had said that he wasn't

2913
02:56:35,090 --> 02:56:38,150
Speaker 17: going to be arresting any of the protesters. So BP

2914
02:56:38,370 --> 02:56:42,230
Speaker 17: decided to do it themselves after 71 days of that

2915
02:56:42,270 --> 02:56:45,100
Speaker 17: tree being defended. So that tree is now gone, but

2916
02:56:45,480 --> 02:56:48,620
Speaker 17: the other tree remains. I thought it was also very

2917
02:56:48,660 --> 02:56:51,720
Speaker 17: sweet that people have taken cuttings from the trees that

2918
02:56:51,780 --> 02:56:54,660
Speaker 17: were taken down and those cuttings are already growing too,

2919
02:56:55,060 --> 02:56:58,140
Speaker 17: which is nice to see. Nature springs eternal. But yeah,

2920
02:56:58,240 --> 02:57:00,640
Speaker 17: I'm going to cover this in a two-parter on natural causes.

2921
02:57:01,220 --> 02:57:03,859
Speaker 17: It will not be the Monday after you hear this,

2922
02:57:03,900 --> 02:57:05,650
Speaker 17: but it will be the Monday after that. And that'll

2923
02:57:05,670 --> 02:57:07,710
Speaker 17: be the first episode and there'll be two episodes. So

2924
02:57:07,870 --> 02:57:09,580
Speaker 17: you'll have to wait to then to get the long

2925
02:57:09,640 --> 02:57:12,820
Speaker 17: version of this talking of long we've got a long

2926
02:57:12,879 --> 02:57:15,959
Speaker 17: time without advertisements which i know makes our listeners sad

2927
02:57:15,980 --> 02:57:18,220
Speaker 17: let's hear from fish of sand.

2928
02:57:18,080 --> 02:57:18,740
Speaker 11: And gravel.

2929
02:57:29,480 --> 02:57:32,670
Speaker 2: So we mentioned earlier that there are large protests going

2930
02:57:32,730 --> 02:57:36,510
Speaker 2: on in Spain. There are also very, very large student

2931
02:57:36,550 --> 02:57:41,670
Speaker 2: protests going on in France right now. These started September 18th,

2932
02:57:42,310 --> 02:57:45,509
Speaker 2: where high school students, and this is an interesting development

2933
02:57:45,550 --> 02:57:49,609
Speaker 2: because most of the written history of student movements is

2934
02:57:49,660 --> 02:57:53,160
Speaker 2: about college students. These are high school students. And they

2935
02:57:53,220 --> 02:57:56,940
Speaker 2: have started en masse blockading their schools and taking to

2936
02:57:56,959 --> 02:58:01,010
Speaker 2: the streets to These protests started in the Parisian suburbs.

2937
02:58:01,150 --> 02:58:03,930
Speaker 2: It is worth bearing in mind that French urban infrastructure

2938
02:58:04,030 --> 02:58:09,390
Speaker 2: is effectively the exact inversion of the way American infrastructure

2939
02:58:09,410 --> 02:58:13,920
Speaker 2: worked with white flight, where in the US you have

2940
02:58:13,940 --> 02:58:16,920
Speaker 2: white people fleeing the urban core into the suburbs. France

2941
02:58:16,980 --> 02:58:19,740
Speaker 2: is built the opposite, where working class and non-white people

2942
02:58:19,780 --> 02:58:22,760
Speaker 2: were forced into the suburbs because they were not able

2943
02:58:22,800 --> 02:58:25,260
Speaker 2: to live in the urban core, which is predominantly whiter

2944
02:58:25,360 --> 02:58:29,930
Speaker 2: and significantly richer. Everyone watch Lehane. It's great. I wish

2945
02:58:29,950 --> 02:58:33,050
Speaker 2: I had any idea what that was. It's a French

2946
02:58:33,129 --> 02:58:34,250
Speaker 2: film about this.

2947
02:58:34,570 --> 02:58:35,289
Speaker 7: Ah, okay.

2948
02:58:35,330 --> 02:58:39,680
Speaker 10: It's about people living in these sorts of suburbs. It's

2949
02:58:40,240 --> 02:58:44,440
Speaker 10: two immigrants and I think a young Jewish kid who

2950
02:58:44,480 --> 02:58:48,459
Speaker 10: then travel into the city center and bad things happen.

2951
02:58:49,000 --> 02:58:50,510
Speaker 10: It's very similar to the story that you're going to

2952
02:58:50,520 --> 02:58:51,070
Speaker 10: be talking about.

2953
02:58:51,110 --> 02:58:51,310
Speaker 2: Yep.

2954
02:58:51,530 --> 02:58:53,830
Speaker 10: But it's like looking at the conditions 20 years ago.

2955
02:58:54,340 --> 02:58:56,220
Speaker 10: And the same conditions now.

2956
02:58:56,500 --> 02:59:00,800
Speaker 2: Yeah. And conditions are worse. Not the same, actually. Yeah.

2957
02:59:01,420 --> 02:59:06,820
Speaker 2: So these protests spread very, very quickly. And it is

2958
02:59:06,860 --> 02:59:09,580
Speaker 2: now spread effectively everywhere. It's not just in Paris. It

2959
02:59:09,640 --> 02:59:13,420
Speaker 2: is across the entire country. I think right now, the

2960
02:59:13,500 --> 02:59:17,470
Speaker 2: last number that I saw, and this changed while I

2961
02:59:17,530 --> 02:59:20,650
Speaker 2: was writing this, the last number that I saw was

2962
02:59:20,650 --> 02:59:24,250
Speaker 2: 500 of France's 3,500 high schools are fully shut down.

2963
02:59:24,270 --> 02:59:24,970
Speaker 16: Damn.

2964
02:59:25,310 --> 02:59:28,289
Speaker 2: So these protests, again, started a couple of weeks ago

2965
02:59:28,410 --> 02:59:33,189
Speaker 2: on September 18th. As of Wednesday the 7th, they are

2966
02:59:33,290 --> 02:59:37,390
Speaker 2: not just continuing, but escalating. Now, We're going to get

2967
02:59:37,430 --> 02:59:40,650
Speaker 2: into the police response in a second, but I can't

2968
02:59:40,730 --> 02:59:42,789
Speaker 2: count the number of times on this show I have

2969
02:59:42,850 --> 02:59:45,199
Speaker 2: said there was a giant police crackdown and the images

2970
02:59:45,240 --> 02:59:48,820
Speaker 2: of the police crackdown spread the protests, but that's what

2971
02:59:48,840 --> 02:59:51,820
Speaker 2: happened here. Why is this happening? Why is it specifically

2972
02:59:51,940 --> 02:59:54,820
Speaker 2: high school students who are now in the streets in

2973
02:59:55,240 --> 02:59:58,279
Speaker 2: full-on conflict with riot police who are reacting to and

2974
02:59:58,320 --> 03:00:01,390
Speaker 2: treating them the way that they treat? I mean, frankly,

2975
03:00:01,490 --> 03:00:05,350
Speaker 2: worse than most protesters get treated in France, which is

2976
03:00:05,610 --> 03:00:08,690
Speaker 2: sort of astonishing. Yeah. So there's actually a good crimping

2977
03:00:08,730 --> 03:00:10,930
Speaker 2: piece about this. There's a lot of things happening here.

2978
03:00:11,490 --> 03:00:14,710
Speaker 2: Part of it is a reaction to class sizes, where

2979
03:00:14,750 --> 03:00:17,650
Speaker 2: you have 30 and 35 kids, sometimes a lot more

2980
03:00:17,690 --> 03:00:20,910
Speaker 2: than that. Class sizes is an issue that's familiar also

2981
03:00:20,950 --> 03:00:22,750
Speaker 2: to you. I mean, a lot of these demands look

2982
03:00:22,770 --> 03:00:25,250
Speaker 2: like the demands you see in teacher strikes effectively everywhere.

2983
03:00:25,270 --> 03:00:25,850
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2984
03:00:26,270 --> 03:00:26,510
Speaker 10: Yeah.

2985
03:00:26,790 --> 03:00:29,310
Speaker 2: These class sizes are enormous. Part of it is the

2986
03:00:29,490 --> 03:00:33,500
Speaker 2: structure of the French education system, which is French schools

2987
03:00:33,530 --> 03:00:35,910
Speaker 2: have breaks, but also you're in school from 8 a.m.

2988
03:00:35,920 --> 03:00:36,180
Speaker 11: To 6 p.m.

2989
03:00:37,770 --> 03:00:43,730
Speaker 2: Which is longer than most places and also causes, you know,

2990
03:00:43,750 --> 03:00:46,050
Speaker 2: this also causes teachers to have to work longer hours.

2991
03:00:46,850 --> 03:00:49,050
Speaker 2: And that means that, you know, because they're working longer hours,

2992
03:00:49,090 --> 03:00:50,970
Speaker 2: the number of teachers you have is strained because you're

2993
03:00:50,990 --> 03:00:55,369
Speaker 2: covering more time. This plus, you know, decades of neoliberal

2994
03:00:55,430 --> 03:01:01,029
Speaker 2: austerity has led to conditions where there will just not

2995
03:01:01,110 --> 03:01:03,280
Speaker 2: be a substitute teacher. So a teacher will get sick.

2996
03:01:04,020 --> 03:01:06,260
Speaker 2: They'll have like maybe a person there, but it's not

2997
03:01:06,310 --> 03:01:08,279
Speaker 2: even a substitute teacher who could take over lesson plans.

2998
03:01:08,310 --> 03:01:09,340
Speaker 2: You just have a week at a time where you're

2999
03:01:09,360 --> 03:01:13,190
Speaker 2: in a subject that's on the national exam system and

3000
03:01:13,209 --> 03:01:18,509
Speaker 2: there's no teacher, which is just sort of appalling given

3001
03:01:18,690 --> 03:01:20,690
Speaker 2: one of the other things that these protests are about,

3002
03:01:20,750 --> 03:01:24,929
Speaker 2: which is this sort of algorithmic program. I remember we

3003
03:01:25,190 --> 03:01:32,200
Speaker 2: had a much less... I don't know, ferocious, a less

3004
03:01:32,300 --> 03:01:34,240
Speaker 2: strict version of this when I was in high school.

3005
03:01:34,280 --> 03:01:37,000
Speaker 2: But in France, they have this sort of student program

3006
03:01:37,050 --> 03:01:39,180
Speaker 2: where you're supposed to put in your choices and it

3007
03:01:39,230 --> 03:01:41,430
Speaker 2: looks at your test scores and it spits out what

3008
03:01:41,470 --> 03:01:44,250
Speaker 2: you should be doing after high school. And this is

3009
03:01:44,290 --> 03:01:46,510
Speaker 2: one of the things that it feeds you into what

3010
03:01:46,629 --> 03:01:48,650
Speaker 2: track you're going into, right? So it feeds you into

3011
03:01:48,690 --> 03:01:52,010
Speaker 2: vocational schools. It feeds you into what kind of colleges

3012
03:01:52,030 --> 03:01:54,850
Speaker 2: you can get into. It has turned into the system

3013
03:01:54,870 --> 03:01:57,710
Speaker 2: kind of like we talked about with the Indian student protests, right?

3014
03:01:58,040 --> 03:02:02,340
Speaker 2: where there's this incredibly intense pressure on students to like

3015
03:02:02,440 --> 03:02:04,970
Speaker 2: fight against each other, basically for, you know, like it's,

3016
03:02:05,030 --> 03:02:08,570
Speaker 2: it's promoted intense competition. And then also it's just, it's,

3017
03:02:08,629 --> 03:02:11,369
Speaker 2: it's a weird algorithm system and everyone is like forced

3018
03:02:11,410 --> 03:02:16,410
Speaker 2: to manage these issues you have with this weird algorithm,

3019
03:02:16,450 --> 03:02:19,400
Speaker 2: taking what your information you're giving it and spitting you

3020
03:02:19,500 --> 03:02:22,780
Speaker 2: out this thing that like determines the rest of your life.

3021
03:02:23,850 --> 03:02:25,990
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a lot of other problems. The actual

3022
03:02:26,030 --> 03:02:29,480
Speaker 2: conditions in the schools themselves are very bad. Like, you know,

3023
03:02:29,500 --> 03:02:34,260
Speaker 2: it's leaking roofs, things like that. There's also, I saw

3024
03:02:34,300 --> 03:02:37,900
Speaker 2: a thing about, like, lunch breaks where students weren't able

3025
03:02:37,940 --> 03:02:39,860
Speaker 2: to eat because the lunch break wasn't, like, they don't

3026
03:02:39,879 --> 03:02:41,779
Speaker 2: have enough cafeteria staff and the lunch break wasn't long

3027
03:02:41,820 --> 03:02:44,740
Speaker 2: enough for all the students to, like, get food. Jeez.

3028
03:02:44,959 --> 03:02:45,740
Speaker 16: Yeah, that's a problem.

3029
03:02:46,180 --> 03:02:49,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. These conditions are emblematic of.

3030
03:02:51,410 --> 03:02:53,470
Speaker 2: I mean, just a lot of what of this sort

3031
03:02:53,490 --> 03:02:58,170
Speaker 2: of deterioration of social services and, you know, the sort

3032
03:02:58,209 --> 03:03:01,330
Speaker 2: of death of opportunity for these students in a way

3033
03:03:01,370 --> 03:03:03,430
Speaker 2: that the more I'm thinking about, the more it's just, oh,

3034
03:03:03,470 --> 03:03:07,470
Speaker 2: this reminds me a lot of the Indian protests. And

3035
03:03:07,510 --> 03:03:12,369
Speaker 2: so the protests themselves, the Macron administration made a decision very,

3036
03:03:12,430 --> 03:03:14,369
Speaker 2: very early on that they were not going to negotiate

3037
03:03:14,390 --> 03:03:16,910
Speaker 2: with the students. They have kind of become more open

3038
03:03:16,970 --> 03:03:20,170
Speaker 2: to it. In the past day, we'll see what happens there.

3039
03:03:21,040 --> 03:03:25,480
Speaker 2: But their immediate response was a brutal police crackdown, which

3040
03:03:25,500 --> 03:03:29,590
Speaker 2: has been the Macron administration's response to most things. And

3041
03:03:29,709 --> 03:03:34,490
Speaker 2: this has been a full-on French police assault on a

3042
03:03:34,530 --> 03:03:37,750
Speaker 2: bunch of children. A 15-year-old got his hand blown off.

3043
03:03:38,370 --> 03:03:41,110
Speaker 2: I've seen conflicting reports about this. It seems like he

3044
03:03:41,150 --> 03:03:42,590
Speaker 2: was trying to pick up what he thought was a

3045
03:03:42,610 --> 03:03:45,789
Speaker 2: tear gas canister but was actually a stun grenade. Yeah.

3046
03:03:46,190 --> 03:03:49,320
Speaker 2: But I've also seen reports that like it hit him.

3047
03:03:49,340 --> 03:03:52,940
Speaker 2: I don't know. But regardless, somehow the police fired a

3048
03:03:52,980 --> 03:03:54,700
Speaker 2: grenade and it blew this kid's hand off.

3049
03:03:55,060 --> 03:03:55,240
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3050
03:03:56,300 --> 03:03:58,599
Speaker 2: Another student has lost an eye. I think that kid

3051
03:03:58,620 --> 03:04:00,490
Speaker 2: was 16. The kid who got his hand blown off

3052
03:04:00,510 --> 03:04:02,390
Speaker 2: again was 15. I'm going to quote from Crime Think

3053
03:04:02,410 --> 03:04:06,419
Speaker 2: here because there's another really bleak case. But currently, the

3054
03:04:06,440 --> 03:04:09,400
Speaker 2: 14-year-old boy can't open his mouth as all of his

3055
03:04:09,500 --> 03:04:11,990
Speaker 2: bottom teeth were knocked out by the impact and all

3056
03:04:12,000 --> 03:04:13,429
Speaker 2: of his upper teeth are broken.

3057
03:04:13,770 --> 03:04:14,710
Speaker 5: Jesus.

3058
03:04:14,910 --> 03:04:20,010
Speaker 2: So, yeah, that kid is 14. Yeah. Again, I cannot

3059
03:04:20,530 --> 03:04:25,060
Speaker 2: emphasize enough. These are actual children. And this is also

3060
03:04:25,110 --> 03:04:27,580
Speaker 2: kind of part of what's complicated in covering this because

3061
03:04:27,660 --> 03:04:30,440
Speaker 2: I think it's important to mention that a cop should

3062
03:04:30,500 --> 03:04:32,990
Speaker 2: not be knocking out the teeth of anyone involved. The

3063
03:04:33,010 --> 03:04:35,310
Speaker 2: fact that they're doing this to 14-year-olds is particularly brutal.

3064
03:04:35,430 --> 03:04:37,850
Speaker 2: And also, I think that it's true, and this has

3065
03:04:37,900 --> 03:04:39,500
Speaker 2: been one of the debates that's been sort of raging

3066
03:04:39,540 --> 03:04:44,120
Speaker 2: across French society, is like, are these students legitimate political actors? Like,

3067
03:04:44,140 --> 03:04:45,980
Speaker 2: do they have the right to have their voices heard

3068
03:04:46,600 --> 03:04:48,700
Speaker 2: and to, you know, like, go and take political action

3069
03:04:48,740 --> 03:04:52,599
Speaker 2: like this? And the right has kind of said no

3070
03:04:52,780 --> 03:04:55,110
Speaker 2: and argued that these people are sort of pawns of,

3071
03:04:56,590 --> 03:04:59,230
Speaker 2: you know, they're pawns of what I would describe as

3072
03:04:59,270 --> 03:05:03,150
Speaker 2: the center-left movement Party, France Unbowed. The media will describe

3073
03:05:03,170 --> 03:05:06,410
Speaker 2: them as hard left, but come on. They're to the

3074
03:05:06,490 --> 03:05:08,930
Speaker 2: right of the old PCF, and the old French Communist

3075
03:05:08,950 --> 03:05:14,220
Speaker 2: Party was not a particularly communist Communist Party. But it's

3076
03:05:14,260 --> 03:05:18,820
Speaker 2: worth noting that while France Unbowed has talked to students

3077
03:05:18,860 --> 03:05:21,140
Speaker 2: and spoken at some of their protests, this was not

3078
03:05:21,820 --> 03:05:24,910
Speaker 2: a protest that was organized through the parties at all.

3079
03:05:25,550 --> 03:05:28,050
Speaker 2: There's an interesting interview in Le Monde with the French

3080
03:05:28,090 --> 03:05:32,580
Speaker 2: sociologist Vincent Taberge, where he points out that France is

3081
03:05:32,620 --> 03:05:36,379
Speaker 2: a country that has seen organized high school student protests too,

3082
03:05:37,020 --> 03:05:40,840
Speaker 2: but these are not those kind of protests. 2006 was

3083
03:05:40,860 --> 03:05:44,730
Speaker 2: kind of the last big high school student protest, but

3084
03:05:44,790 --> 03:05:46,810
Speaker 2: those ones were organized by leftist student unions that were

3085
03:05:46,830 --> 03:05:49,710
Speaker 2: directly affiliated with the parties. This is not that. This

3086
03:05:49,790 --> 03:05:53,430
Speaker 2: is a bunch of students taking action autonomously. They are

3087
03:05:53,490 --> 03:05:58,570
Speaker 2: self-organized and they are not particularly connected to... Any of

3088
03:05:58,620 --> 03:06:00,910
Speaker 2: the French political parties, even the sort of far left ones.

3089
03:06:01,730 --> 03:06:04,570
Speaker 2: And the scale is like huge, right? Oh, it's massive.

3090
03:06:04,650 --> 03:06:07,390
Speaker 10: For something that's more autonomously organized, like hundreds and hundreds

3091
03:06:07,410 --> 03:06:09,090
Speaker 10: of thousands of participants.

3092
03:06:10,050 --> 03:06:13,619
Speaker 2: Yeah, like all across the country. Yeah, I mean, they

3093
03:06:13,800 --> 03:06:16,160
Speaker 2: fully have shut down. Okay, I'm not going to try

3094
03:06:16,180 --> 03:06:17,160
Speaker 2: to do the math on there. Hold on.

3095
03:06:17,580 --> 03:06:21,560
Speaker 16: One in seven, 500 out of 3,500. Yeah, that sounds right.

3096
03:06:22,260 --> 03:06:24,640
Speaker 16: That's why they call him PhD James, everyone.

3097
03:06:24,660 --> 03:06:30,400
Speaker 2: Arcane historian over here. Hell yeah, hell yeah. I picked

3098
03:06:30,440 --> 03:06:32,990
Speaker 2: an anthropology degree specifically so I wouldn't have to do

3099
03:06:33,030 --> 03:06:33,750
Speaker 2: this kind of math.

3100
03:06:35,580 --> 03:06:38,580
Speaker 16: You just get to measure people's skulls instead in anthropology

3101
03:06:38,620 --> 03:06:39,360
Speaker 16: and do that kind of math.

3102
03:06:39,379 --> 03:06:43,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, look, anthropology consists of two things, racism and

3103
03:06:43,379 --> 03:06:45,910
Speaker 2: a discourse about whether or not it's doing racism. So,

3104
03:06:46,180 --> 03:06:48,209
Speaker 2: you know, this is why I'm a podcaster now. A

3105
03:06:48,270 --> 03:06:50,590
Speaker 2: discipline that has never done anything wrong. That is most

3106
03:06:50,629 --> 03:06:54,430
Speaker 2: of what my anthropology class is. There's some good stuff

3107
03:06:54,490 --> 03:06:57,050
Speaker 2: in there. Every once in a while, they accidentally start

3108
03:06:57,070 --> 03:07:01,580
Speaker 2: a social movement. Yeah, yeah. you do linguistic anthropology and

3109
03:07:01,760 --> 03:07:04,320
Speaker 2: it melts your brain. Oh, that's so scary. Yeah.

3110
03:07:04,980 --> 03:07:07,840
Speaker 17: From the perspective of La France Insoumise, it's a French

3111
03:07:07,860 --> 03:07:12,160
Speaker 17: word for France Unbowed, right? It's like a Demsoc in

3112
03:07:12,180 --> 03:07:15,650
Speaker 17: that it has people who are left of other people.

3113
03:07:15,730 --> 03:07:18,370
Speaker 17: But like Mir's right, this isn't a particularly radical party,

3114
03:07:18,870 --> 03:07:20,810
Speaker 17: at least not. sort of on a global scale. Like,

3115
03:07:20,830 --> 03:07:26,010
Speaker 17: you've seen some politicians do a lot better than others. Like,

3116
03:07:26,209 --> 03:07:28,830
Speaker 17: I'm sure everyone by now will have seen the Bali

3117
03:07:28,870 --> 03:07:32,460
Speaker 17: Bagayoko video, right, of the mayor getting tear gassed with

3118
03:07:32,480 --> 03:07:32,859
Speaker 17: the kids.

3119
03:07:33,200 --> 03:07:33,380
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3120
03:07:33,800 --> 03:07:39,100
Speaker 17: But, like, it's not about politicians and, like, attempts to

3121
03:07:39,160 --> 03:07:41,859
Speaker 17: make it about politicians other than being pissed off at them.

3122
03:07:42,180 --> 03:07:45,470
Speaker 16: Yeah, and people asking for, like, huge, like, structural changes.

3123
03:07:45,790 --> 03:07:45,970
Speaker 2: Yes.

3124
03:07:46,070 --> 03:07:51,310
Speaker 10: And frustration at both the left's inability to address this political.

3125
03:07:51,070 --> 03:07:53,330
Speaker 2: Situation in France and, you know, continuing a sort.

3126
03:07:53,230 --> 03:07:56,750
Speaker 10: Of like, like we talked about in like Brazil and

3127
03:07:57,129 --> 03:07:59,650
Speaker 10: in some parts of the States, it's sort of like gerotocracy,

3128
03:07:59,810 --> 03:08:01,410
Speaker 10: even among the left, where we have these kind of

3129
03:08:01,510 --> 03:08:04,530
Speaker 10: old guys who may have done good things, but they're

3130
03:08:05,209 --> 03:08:07,349
Speaker 10: still in their 80s and you need to pass the torch.

3131
03:08:07,370 --> 03:08:09,490
Speaker 10: And like a lot of what I'm seeing from these

3132
03:08:09,530 --> 03:08:12,570
Speaker 10: protests in France, it is a very like generational uprising.

3133
03:08:13,070 --> 03:08:13,789
Speaker 11: Yeah.

3134
03:08:13,850 --> 03:08:17,170
Speaker 10: Also built on the frustrations about how like 10% of

3135
03:08:17,190 --> 03:08:20,720
Speaker 10: the school budget is being diverted to the pension system.

3136
03:08:21,340 --> 03:08:24,700
Speaker 10: So there's a lot of this kind of generational frustration,

3137
03:08:24,820 --> 03:08:28,280
Speaker 10: and the left in France has also run into that.

3138
03:08:29,220 --> 03:08:31,100
Speaker 17: I was going to say, like, I did use a

3139
03:08:31,120 --> 03:08:35,289
Speaker 17: calculator for this one, but it is 58 years since 1968.

3140
03:08:35,290 --> 03:08:39,849
Speaker 16: But you have this, like, this generation of, like, 68ers.

3141
03:08:40,330 --> 03:08:42,550
Speaker 16: They've gone in a number of directions, right? But, like,

3142
03:08:42,590 --> 03:08:45,770
Speaker 16: to include, like, part of the electoral left. And, like, it's...

3143
03:08:46,470 --> 03:08:49,030
Speaker 16: It's not like we haven't seen protests since 68 in France, right?

3144
03:08:49,310 --> 03:08:52,670
Speaker 16: But like, it shouldn't be that one generation gets to

3145
03:08:52,709 --> 03:08:55,300
Speaker 16: have the, like we were the radical students who changed

3146
03:08:55,320 --> 03:08:58,859
Speaker 16: the world. And therefore you students now have to listen

3147
03:08:58,900 --> 03:09:00,599
Speaker 16: to us, even though we're old as fuck and don't

3148
03:09:00,640 --> 03:09:01,980
Speaker 16: understand the shit that you're going through.

3149
03:09:02,500 --> 03:09:05,379
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think the sort of structural issue in

3150
03:09:05,400 --> 03:09:09,270
Speaker 2: terms of how, yeah, on a generational level, like how

3151
03:09:09,310 --> 03:09:11,289
Speaker 2: the left has been and has not been connecting to

3152
03:09:11,330 --> 03:09:14,610
Speaker 2: these students. I think it's also very important again, like,

3153
03:09:15,430 --> 03:09:18,710
Speaker 2: where this started and the kind of, like, working-class suburbs

3154
03:09:18,870 --> 03:09:25,220
Speaker 2: that the French left has had a really tenuous relationship with, like,

3155
03:09:25,320 --> 03:09:27,860
Speaker 2: kind of since the 70s. And we talked about this, like, so, like,

3156
03:09:28,820 --> 03:09:32,660
Speaker 2: I got three years ago now, there was a huge series,

3157
03:09:32,680 --> 03:09:35,920
Speaker 2: there was a huge uprising over a police killing in

3158
03:09:35,940 --> 03:09:39,530
Speaker 2: a different set of, in a different set of French

3159
03:09:39,570 --> 03:09:41,770
Speaker 2: suburbs that really.

3160
03:09:43,530 --> 03:09:45,330
Speaker 2: It came in this moment of what had been really

3161
03:09:45,410 --> 03:09:48,129
Speaker 2: fierce upheaval in France, like in the wake of the

3162
03:09:48,170 --> 03:09:51,279
Speaker 2: Yellow Vest and all these other protests. Other pension protests.

3163
03:09:51,959 --> 03:09:52,580
Speaker 11: Yeah, right.

3164
03:09:52,600 --> 03:09:56,920
Speaker 2: And this was the one where like the non-white people

3165
03:09:56,959 --> 03:09:59,270
Speaker 2: in the suburbs went up and the rest of France

3166
03:09:59,330 --> 03:10:02,050
Speaker 2: was like, oh, God, no, fuck off. We hate you.

3167
03:10:02,070 --> 03:10:05,890
Speaker 2: You're like to this day. like that, that the interview

3168
03:10:05,910 --> 03:10:07,450
Speaker 2: with the sociologist I was talking about in Le Mans,

3169
03:10:07,490 --> 03:10:09,330
Speaker 2: which is like the biggest newspaper in France is talking

3170
03:10:09,379 --> 03:10:11,340
Speaker 2: about how of all these students are like actually different

3171
03:10:11,840 --> 03:10:16,140
Speaker 2: than like the like urban disturbances from those 2023 protests

3172
03:10:16,860 --> 03:10:20,480
Speaker 2: about police brutality and sort of structural racism and class violence.

3173
03:10:21,500 --> 03:10:22,780
Speaker 2: And when you look at it, it's like, no, they're

3174
03:10:22,820 --> 03:10:25,920
Speaker 2: not like, they're actually a lot in some ways are

3175
03:10:25,959 --> 03:10:27,920
Speaker 2: a lot more similar to that than they are to

3176
03:10:28,379 --> 03:10:30,199
Speaker 2: the other protests, which have been going on, which is

3177
03:10:30,280 --> 03:10:32,670
Speaker 2: where I kind of want to, close this where we

3178
03:10:32,690 --> 03:10:36,190
Speaker 2: have also started to see the rest of French society

3179
03:10:36,550 --> 03:10:41,620
Speaker 2: move slowly in sort of line with the student protests where,

3180
03:10:42,600 --> 03:10:45,279
Speaker 2: you know, obviously part of the student protests are about

3181
03:10:45,620 --> 03:10:50,960
Speaker 2: this neoliberal kind of austerity budget that the Macron administration

3182
03:10:50,980 --> 03:10:53,980
Speaker 2: keeps trying to pass. And so there's also been a

3183
03:10:54,420 --> 03:10:58,570
Speaker 2: one-day strike of about like 300,000 workers from the sort

3184
03:10:58,590 --> 03:11:04,250
Speaker 2: of like traditional labor like leftist unions. Also, about 11%

3185
03:11:04,250 --> 03:11:07,340
Speaker 2: of teachers and faculty are now on strike in the

3186
03:11:07,360 --> 03:11:10,840
Speaker 2: middle of this too. So it remains to be seen

3187
03:11:11,640 --> 03:11:14,780
Speaker 2: exactly the extent to which the rest of the French

3188
03:11:14,820 --> 03:11:17,500
Speaker 2: left is going to join into these protests. I want

3189
03:11:17,520 --> 03:11:20,140
Speaker 2: to mention something briefly about schools here and why it's

3190
03:11:20,180 --> 03:11:23,919
Speaker 2: important that these are starting here, which is that schools

3191
03:11:24,160 --> 03:11:28,540
Speaker 2: are not just places where you get education. It's not

3192
03:11:28,600 --> 03:11:32,000
Speaker 2: just the basic part of like, the reproductive labor that

3193
03:11:32,060 --> 03:11:34,800
Speaker 2: reproduces capital. It's not just that it produces future workers,

3194
03:11:35,580 --> 03:11:38,250
Speaker 2: but it's also a place where like the basic care

3195
03:11:38,280 --> 03:11:40,709
Speaker 2: for students and the basic social reproduction of like children

3196
03:11:41,310 --> 03:11:43,709
Speaker 2: is carried out by the state, which allows workers to work.

3197
03:11:44,650 --> 03:11:44,810
Speaker 8: Right.

3198
03:11:44,870 --> 03:11:47,920
Speaker 2: And this is why shutting schools down is also a,

3199
03:11:48,170 --> 03:11:52,170
Speaker 2: a giant lever that allows you to like, like actually

3200
03:11:52,250 --> 03:11:55,240
Speaker 2: fully shutting down schools on mass is a lever that

3201
03:11:55,260 --> 03:11:57,060
Speaker 2: allows you to disrupt the rest of the economy because

3202
03:11:57,080 --> 03:12:00,250
Speaker 2: it forces parents to like not work because It's not

3203
03:12:00,290 --> 03:12:02,190
Speaker 2: exactly analogous, but it can serve the effect of what

3204
03:12:02,209 --> 03:12:03,869
Speaker 2: coal strikes used to, where if you shut down the

3205
03:12:03,910 --> 03:12:05,530
Speaker 2: supply of coal, it shuts down all of the workers

3206
03:12:05,550 --> 03:12:08,199
Speaker 2: down the line. Where if you force all of these

3207
03:12:08,240 --> 03:12:10,380
Speaker 2: parents to have to stay home, all of these workers

3208
03:12:11,080 --> 03:12:13,840
Speaker 2: are now also on strike as a sort of secondary

3209
03:12:13,879 --> 03:12:15,620
Speaker 2: thing of shutting these schools down. This is why the

3210
03:12:15,640 --> 03:12:18,180
Speaker 2: state always tries to make it really hard for teachers

3211
03:12:18,250 --> 03:12:21,470
Speaker 2: unions to strike, because schools are a lever of power

3212
03:12:21,910 --> 03:12:23,390
Speaker 2: that you can use in the labor system if you

3213
03:12:23,470 --> 03:12:26,920
Speaker 2: use them correctly. I want to close by mentioning that

3214
03:12:27,480 --> 03:12:29,700
Speaker 2: as this has been going on, there's been unrest building

3215
03:12:29,740 --> 03:12:33,000
Speaker 2: in France over, I mean, a whole bunch of things.

3216
03:12:33,100 --> 03:12:34,699
Speaker 2: There's a police bill I think we talked about on

3217
03:12:34,740 --> 03:12:40,170
Speaker 2: this show that is trying to allow the French police to... Basically,

3218
03:12:40,190 --> 03:12:42,750
Speaker 2: what it would do is it's a proposed bill that

3219
03:12:42,870 --> 03:12:45,929
Speaker 2: if it was passed, if a French police officer shot someone,

3220
03:12:45,990 --> 03:12:49,030
Speaker 2: they would be immediately assumed to have killed them legitimately.

3221
03:12:49,650 --> 03:12:51,430
Speaker 2: And then they would have to be proven that they

3222
03:12:51,470 --> 03:12:54,330
Speaker 2: illegitimately killed them instead of there being an investigation immediately.

3223
03:12:55,200 --> 03:12:58,330
Speaker 2: So it's a bill that says that if a cop

3224
03:12:58,370 --> 03:13:00,530
Speaker 2: drags you to an alley and shoots you and there's

3225
03:13:00,570 --> 03:13:02,379
Speaker 2: no one there, there's nothing you can do about it.

3226
03:13:02,950 --> 03:13:08,250
Speaker 2: That's been causing unrest. And one of the old sort

3227
03:13:08,270 --> 03:13:10,090
Speaker 2: of signals that's been set up in the middle of this,

3228
03:13:10,110 --> 03:13:12,010
Speaker 2: and it's unclear who is doing this, but there's been

3229
03:13:12,030 --> 03:13:15,850
Speaker 2: this giant call put out from these mass demonstrations on

3230
03:13:15,890 --> 03:13:20,010
Speaker 2: October 17th. And there's this question, you know, Crime Thing

3231
03:13:20,030 --> 03:13:21,689
Speaker 2: is talking about this. I've seen this in other places of,

3232
03:13:22,150 --> 03:13:24,779
Speaker 2: Are these student protests going to last until then, until

3233
03:13:24,820 --> 03:13:26,940
Speaker 2: that giant uprising? Are people going to come out into

3234
03:13:26,959 --> 03:13:32,120
Speaker 2: the streets before then? And at this point, all we

3235
03:13:32,160 --> 03:13:37,170
Speaker 2: can sort of do is wait. And also, I guess

3236
03:13:37,270 --> 03:13:39,230
Speaker 2: if you're in France, go now. You're not going to

3237
03:13:39,250 --> 03:13:39,950
Speaker 2: get a better shot.

3238
03:13:40,270 --> 03:13:43,109
Speaker 16: If you're trying to overthrow the government, stay in line,

3239
03:13:43,470 --> 03:13:43,810
Speaker 16: you know?

3240
03:13:44,590 --> 03:13:48,940
Speaker 2: Yeah. I want to end on one actual point. important

3241
03:13:48,980 --> 03:13:50,840
Speaker 2: note which is you see this a lot in the

3242
03:13:50,879 --> 03:13:52,680
Speaker 2: nature of french protest you see this in american protests

3243
03:13:52,700 --> 03:13:56,520
Speaker 2: where like one section of society will go into revolt

3244
03:13:56,620 --> 03:13:59,490
Speaker 2: and everyone else just kind of waits and you get

3245
03:13:59,500 --> 03:14:02,170
Speaker 2: these like cycles where like the people who were kind

3246
03:14:02,190 --> 03:14:04,849
Speaker 2: of who are in the streets and occupy like weren't

3247
03:14:04,890 --> 03:14:07,050
Speaker 2: the same people necessarily i mean some obviously there was

3248
03:14:07,090 --> 03:14:09,050
Speaker 2: crossover but they weren't the same section of society that

3249
03:14:09,090 --> 03:14:12,050
Speaker 2: went in like went into revolt in ferguson right they

3250
03:14:12,070 --> 03:14:14,210
Speaker 2: like waited until the next one was out or like

3251
03:14:14,350 --> 03:14:17,440
Speaker 2: you see this with like the British student movement. And

3252
03:14:17,470 --> 03:14:20,410
Speaker 2: then right after the British student movement kind of gets crushed,

3253
03:14:20,750 --> 03:14:24,529
Speaker 2: there's the riots in London in 2010. And you've seen

3254
03:14:24,570 --> 03:14:26,830
Speaker 2: this here, where there were a bunch of strikes by

3255
03:14:26,850 --> 03:14:29,550
Speaker 2: the organized left, and there was the yellow vests. And

3256
03:14:29,610 --> 03:14:32,610
Speaker 2: then when the suburbs went up in 2023, everyone else

3257
03:14:32,629 --> 03:14:35,269
Speaker 2: stayed home. And if you do that, they're going to

3258
03:14:35,970 --> 03:14:37,570
Speaker 2: line you up, and they're going to knock you out

3259
03:14:37,709 --> 03:14:40,480
Speaker 2: one at a time. And the only way... that you

3260
03:14:40,500 --> 03:14:43,480
Speaker 2: can win is like when one sector of society goes out,

3261
03:14:43,620 --> 03:14:46,260
Speaker 2: even if it's not yours, go with them. Don't leave,

3262
03:14:46,310 --> 03:14:49,709
Speaker 2: don't leave the kids to die alone. Like go support them,

3263
03:14:49,730 --> 03:14:50,370
Speaker 2: go fight with them.

3264
03:14:51,450 --> 03:14:53,490
Speaker 16: I do have something that's not on my script that

3265
03:14:53,510 --> 03:14:56,290
Speaker 16: I wanted to bring up really quickly because this just

3266
03:14:56,370 --> 03:14:59,440
Speaker 16: came out today. And I do think it's an important story.

3267
03:15:00,120 --> 03:15:02,420
Speaker 16: This happened back in August, but we didn't know about

3268
03:15:02,440 --> 03:15:06,850
Speaker 16: it until today. So, A congressional candidate in Arizona, Bernadette

3269
03:15:06,950 --> 03:15:11,650
Speaker 16: Green Placentia, who is running in Arizona's 8th congressional district

3270
03:15:11,770 --> 03:15:16,550
Speaker 16: and trying to unseat incumbent Republican Representative Abe Hamada, was

3271
03:15:16,920 --> 03:15:20,770
Speaker 16: raped in August while she was repairing a damaged campaign

3272
03:15:20,830 --> 03:15:24,120
Speaker 16: sign in Sun City. This was like a regular thing

3273
03:15:24,160 --> 03:15:27,160
Speaker 16: for her. Signs would get damaged, you know, either purposefully

3274
03:15:27,220 --> 03:15:30,710
Speaker 16: or just like by the climate. And she would go

3275
03:15:30,790 --> 03:15:33,410
Speaker 16: out and fix them in the morning. And one day

3276
03:15:33,450 --> 03:15:35,390
Speaker 16: when she was out doing this in August at about

3277
03:15:35,390 --> 03:15:38,670
Speaker 16: 2 a.m., she was struck in the head and lost

3278
03:15:38,740 --> 03:15:42,160
Speaker 16: consciousness and regained consciousness to a man sexually assaulting her.

3279
03:15:42,680 --> 03:15:44,880
Speaker 16: She believes he had said something about her being a

3280
03:15:44,940 --> 03:15:47,920
Speaker 16: democratic bitch, although she's not 100 percent certain about what

3281
03:15:47,959 --> 03:15:50,200
Speaker 16: he was saying. I think this is just kind of

3282
03:15:50,240 --> 03:15:52,260
Speaker 16: an important thing for people to be aware of for

3283
03:15:52,320 --> 03:15:52,980
Speaker 16: obvious reasons.

3284
03:15:53,600 --> 03:15:54,459
Speaker 2: God, that's bleak.

3285
03:15:54,740 --> 03:15:58,670
Speaker 16: Yeah, it's pretty fucking horrifying. Anyway, this story came out

3286
03:15:58,690 --> 03:16:00,670
Speaker 16: within hours of us recording this, so I don't have

3287
03:16:00,690 --> 03:16:03,129
Speaker 16: much more on it than that. The way that we

3288
03:16:03,170 --> 03:16:06,090
Speaker 16: tend to talk about sexual violence, we tend to talk

3289
03:16:06,140 --> 03:16:09,480
Speaker 16: about it as something that's like an individual phenomena and

3290
03:16:09,560 --> 03:16:13,839
Speaker 16: not as a regime of violence that's done to discipline

3291
03:16:13,860 --> 03:16:15,900
Speaker 16: people into falling in line.

3292
03:16:15,959 --> 03:16:20,800
Speaker 2: And this is a really bleak and blatant example of like,

3293
03:16:21,680 --> 03:16:24,720
Speaker 2: oh yeah, no, sexual violence also is a social phenomena

3294
03:16:24,760 --> 03:16:27,760
Speaker 2: that is designed to keep people in line. And fuck that.

3295
03:16:28,879 --> 03:16:31,500
Speaker 16: I mean, it's just worth noting that, like, even in

3296
03:16:31,540 --> 03:16:35,600
Speaker 16: a position of, like, relative cultural power to certainly the

3297
03:16:35,700 --> 03:16:38,770
Speaker 16: average victim, she didn't feel safe coming out about what

3298
03:16:38,790 --> 03:16:39,830
Speaker 16: had happened to her for months.

3299
03:16:40,530 --> 03:16:40,730
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3300
03:16:41,650 --> 03:16:47,990
Speaker 16: So that's pretty worth acknowledging, too. Moving along, on October 4th, 2026,

3301
03:16:47,990 --> 03:16:53,620
Speaker 16: Russian public health regulator Rostov, Ross Patrin, Ross. Sorry, I

3302
03:16:53,620 --> 03:16:54,720
Speaker 16: guess it's going to take a second.

3303
03:16:54,760 --> 03:16:56,820
Speaker 2: This is a bad one. It looks rough. I'm not

3304
03:16:56,980 --> 03:16:58,160
Speaker 2: even going to try it.

3305
03:16:58,420 --> 03:17:01,730
Speaker 16: The Russian public health regulator, their equivalent of the Department

3306
03:17:01,750 --> 03:17:03,869
Speaker 16: of Health. I'm not going to try to say the name.

3307
03:17:04,830 --> 03:17:07,949
Speaker 16: You don't listen to this podcast because of my pronunciation

3308
03:17:07,990 --> 03:17:10,990
Speaker 16: of foreign languages, right? I'm not even going to try here.

3309
03:17:11,550 --> 03:17:12,910
Speaker 2: Famously our strongest suit.

3310
03:17:13,550 --> 03:17:16,110
Speaker 16: I've never seen a B and an N come together

3311
03:17:16,129 --> 03:17:22,450
Speaker 16: without a vowel. It's really soft. Yeah, there's some complicated

3312
03:17:22,470 --> 03:17:24,390
Speaker 16: phonetic shit going on in that word.

3313
03:17:24,550 --> 03:17:26,850
Speaker 2: Gnarly. Fascinating.

3314
03:17:27,050 --> 03:17:30,050
Speaker 16: Well, now I have to try to say it. Rospotrebnaz?

3315
03:17:30,470 --> 03:17:32,379
Speaker 2: Nadzor? Rospotrebnazor?

3316
03:17:32,400 --> 03:17:32,820
Speaker 5: Bnadzor?

3317
03:17:34,440 --> 03:17:38,180
Speaker 16: Yeah, the Russian Department of Health issued a public, sorry,

3318
03:17:38,200 --> 03:17:39,690
Speaker 16: it took a long time to get to the meat

3319
03:17:39,730 --> 03:17:43,289
Speaker 16: of this, issued a public statement that one employee of

3320
03:17:43,350 --> 03:17:47,470
Speaker 16: the Anti-Plague Institute of Siberia and the Far East had

3321
03:17:47,570 --> 03:17:53,160
Speaker 16: perished due to her accidental exposure to pneumonic plague. This employee,

3322
03:17:53,180 --> 03:17:57,840
Speaker 16: 28-year-old Daria Shipilova, had apparently broken a vial containing plague

3323
03:17:57,860 --> 03:18:02,700
Speaker 16: bacteria and contracted the deadly disease. In short order, 200-some-odd

3324
03:18:02,740 --> 03:18:05,830
Speaker 16: people who had close contact with Daria before her death

3325
03:18:05,890 --> 03:18:10,220
Speaker 16: were isolated and put under observation. Multiple hospitals and other

3326
03:18:10,240 --> 03:18:13,940
Speaker 16: facilities in the area were closed and or put under observation.

3327
03:18:14,540 --> 03:18:17,000
Speaker 16: As news of this all trickled out into the wider world,

3328
03:18:17,080 --> 03:18:19,480
Speaker 16: people began to freak out. I think I first came

3329
03:18:19,540 --> 03:18:22,199
Speaker 16: across this story and like it was pushed to me.

3330
03:18:22,209 --> 03:18:24,750
Speaker 16: I don't even follow this subreddit, but the prepper subreddit

3331
03:18:25,090 --> 03:18:27,750
Speaker 16: like pushed it to me. People were freaking out about

3332
03:18:27,810 --> 03:18:28,410
Speaker 16: it so much.

3333
03:18:28,530 --> 03:18:30,130
Speaker 2: Right. Yeah, that makes sense. That makes sense.

3334
03:18:30,510 --> 03:18:33,610
Speaker 16: To be fair, this is not not worth being concerned about.

3335
03:18:33,750 --> 03:18:34,010
Speaker 15: Right.

3336
03:18:34,270 --> 03:18:36,860
Speaker 16: And I think this panic was an equal mix. of

3337
03:18:36,940 --> 03:18:40,960
Speaker 16: PTSD from COVID, and quite frankly, the enduring popularity of

3338
03:18:41,020 --> 03:18:43,980
Speaker 16: Stephen King's best novel, The Stand. I bring up The

3339
03:18:44,040 --> 03:18:46,780
Speaker 16: Stand because, I can't lie, I initially got a little

3340
03:18:46,810 --> 03:18:50,150
Speaker 16: worried because the way in which this started is exactly

3341
03:18:50,200 --> 03:18:52,690
Speaker 16: how the world-ending plague in The Stand begins.

3342
03:18:52,990 --> 03:18:53,870
Speaker 2: There's like a U.S.

3343
03:18:53,930 --> 03:18:57,490
Speaker 16: Scientist at a bioweapons lab who like, breaks a vial

3344
03:18:57,570 --> 03:19:00,550
Speaker 16: and it kills everybody and it escapes containment and it

3345
03:19:00,590 --> 03:19:02,990
Speaker 16: wipes out, you know, the whole world, right? And to

3346
03:19:03,050 --> 03:19:05,430
Speaker 16: be clear, this is the sort of story that should

3347
03:19:05,480 --> 03:19:09,540
Speaker 16: generate some anxiety. It's not unreasonable if you were concerned

3348
03:19:09,580 --> 03:19:12,900
Speaker 16: about this. But on closer inspection, I truly don't believe

3349
03:19:12,940 --> 03:19:16,120
Speaker 16: the specific case is worth freaking out over. For one thing,

3350
03:19:16,160 --> 03:19:19,350
Speaker 16: there's zero evidence that it has spread beyond its initial victim.

3351
03:19:19,820 --> 03:19:22,400
Speaker 16: It sounds scary to hear that hundreds of people have

3352
03:19:22,440 --> 03:19:26,699
Speaker 16: been contained after an accidental fatal plague exposure, but that's

3353
03:19:26,760 --> 03:19:29,160
Speaker 16: what you'd want the Russian government.

3354
03:19:28,860 --> 03:19:31,820
Speaker 2: Or any government to do, right? You would want them

3355
03:19:31,900 --> 03:19:35,350
Speaker 2: to take this kind of precaution, right?

3356
03:19:35,570 --> 03:19:37,629
Speaker 16: I don't normally say this about the Russian government, but

3357
03:19:38,110 --> 03:19:42,769
Speaker 16: they seem to be responding responsibly to this. They seem

3358
03:19:42,790 --> 03:19:45,189
Speaker 16: to have an understanding that you have to respond very

3359
03:19:45,230 --> 03:19:46,410
Speaker 16: seriously to this sort of thing.

3360
03:19:47,020 --> 03:19:50,220
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it being the Plague Institute where this happened

3361
03:19:50,280 --> 03:19:52,960
Speaker 2: does raise the odds of the people dealing with it

3362
03:19:53,020 --> 03:19:53,750
Speaker 2: knowing what to do.

3363
03:19:54,310 --> 03:19:55,000
Speaker 11: Right, right.

3364
03:19:55,390 --> 03:19:58,250
Speaker 16: It's the Plague Institute. And we'll talk a little bit

3365
03:19:58,270 --> 03:20:00,090
Speaker 16: more about that in a second. I do want to

3366
03:20:00,129 --> 03:20:03,430
Speaker 16: note here, so far, 60% of the people who have

3367
03:20:03,450 --> 03:20:06,689
Speaker 16: been detained have already been tested and been declared free

3368
03:20:06,810 --> 03:20:08,849
Speaker 16: of any sickness. And it seems like the rest are

3369
03:20:08,910 --> 03:20:11,410
Speaker 16: going to be given a good bill of health soon.

3370
03:20:11,430 --> 03:20:13,990
Speaker 16: A spokesperson for Russia's public health entity that I will

3371
03:20:14,010 --> 03:20:16,850
Speaker 16: not try to pronounce informed the New York Times. Laboratory

3372
03:20:16,900 --> 03:20:19,680
Speaker 16: tests have identified two cases of COVID-19 and two cases

3373
03:20:19,700 --> 03:20:22,660
Speaker 16: of rhinovirus infection or the common cold, the regulator said,

3374
03:20:22,980 --> 03:20:26,440
Speaker 16: according to the Interfax News Agency. No other infectious disease

3375
03:20:26,500 --> 03:20:29,030
Speaker 16: pathogens were detected in any of the contacts. Sorry, it

3376
03:20:29,050 --> 03:20:31,590
Speaker 16: wasn't directly to the Times, it was to Interfax. And

3377
03:20:31,730 --> 03:20:34,050
Speaker 16: you do have to imagine that those, like, four people

3378
03:20:34,090 --> 03:20:36,810
Speaker 16: who had the cold or COVID were, like, freaking the

3379
03:20:37,070 --> 03:20:37,420
Speaker 16: fuck out.

3380
03:20:37,430 --> 03:20:39,970
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. First, they're like, oh, my God, is this

3381
03:20:40,050 --> 03:20:43,900
Speaker 2: the end? Worst days of your life. I don't think.

3382
03:20:43,840 --> 03:20:46,420
Speaker 16: Sniffles are a sign of the pneumonic plague, but I

3383
03:20:46,440 --> 03:20:49,500
Speaker 16: would imagine you're not thinking super logically in this instance.

3384
03:20:49,520 --> 03:20:49,760
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3385
03:20:50,060 --> 03:20:55,140
Speaker 16: Now, the pneumonic plague is insanely deadly. It has a 71%

3386
03:20:55,140 --> 03:20:58,760
Speaker 16: case fatality rate. For some idea of how bad that is,

3387
03:20:59,170 --> 03:21:02,890
Speaker 16: the case fatality rate for Ebola is only around 50%, right?

3388
03:21:02,910 --> 03:21:02,990
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3389
03:21:05,280 --> 03:21:07,840
Speaker 16: Although rates in past outbreaks have varied wildly, there's a

3390
03:21:07,900 --> 03:21:11,340
Speaker 16: lot of factors that can influence that. Ebola case fatality

3391
03:21:11,400 --> 03:21:15,779
Speaker 16: rates in different outbreaks have been anywhere from 25% to 90%, right?

3392
03:21:16,160 --> 03:21:18,519
Speaker 16: There's different variants of Ebola, right? Just as we don't

3393
03:21:18,560 --> 03:21:20,910
Speaker 16: exactly know what variant of the pneumonic plague this is, right?

3394
03:21:20,940 --> 03:21:23,250
Speaker 16: It might actually have a lower or higher case fatality rate.

3395
03:21:23,520 --> 03:21:26,030
Speaker 16: This may be the only case of someone getting infected

3396
03:21:26,050 --> 03:21:28,910
Speaker 16: with this specific strain of pneumonic plague that we have.

3397
03:21:28,970 --> 03:21:31,470
Speaker 16: I don't know that we really know exactly what she has.

3398
03:21:32,030 --> 03:21:35,750
Speaker 16: But yeah, this is a scary, deadly plague. But that

3399
03:21:35,790 --> 03:21:38,720
Speaker 16: also makes the case that, like, if it had broken containment,

3400
03:21:38,950 --> 03:21:41,440
Speaker 16: there would be way more sick and dying people by now.

3401
03:21:41,560 --> 03:21:44,840
Speaker 16: And given the overall competence of the Russian state, if

3402
03:21:44,879 --> 03:21:48,220
Speaker 16: this was an out-of-control plague in Siberia, I don't think

3403
03:21:48,260 --> 03:21:51,420
Speaker 16: they'd be able to keep this locked down very long, right?

3404
03:21:52,120 --> 03:21:52,400
Speaker 11: No.

3405
03:21:53,140 --> 03:21:53,359
Speaker 2: No.

3406
03:21:54,020 --> 03:21:57,300
Speaker 16: If 71% of people exposed to this were dying, right,

3407
03:21:57,740 --> 03:21:59,880
Speaker 16: like had contracted it and were dying, I don't think

3408
03:21:59,900 --> 03:22:01,539
Speaker 16: they'd be able to keep this. I'm like, we'd be

3409
03:22:01,560 --> 03:22:04,020
Speaker 16: able to keep this thing secret, right? The other thing

3410
03:22:04,040 --> 03:22:05,940
Speaker 16: I should point out is that scary as that case

3411
03:22:05,990 --> 03:22:08,870
Speaker 16: fatality rate is, that's not the only thing that should

3412
03:22:08,930 --> 03:22:12,590
Speaker 16: make a disease worrying to you, right? That's super worrying

3413
03:22:12,690 --> 03:22:16,990
Speaker 16: if you catch it, but pneumonic plague is not widely transmissible.

3414
03:22:17,290 --> 03:22:19,670
Speaker 16: Think back to COVID. If one person on a bus

3415
03:22:19,730 --> 03:22:22,000
Speaker 16: or a plane or in a room has COVID and sneezes,

3416
03:22:22,360 --> 03:22:24,340
Speaker 16: not back to you, but think, I mean, COVID's still here.

3417
03:22:24,720 --> 03:22:27,119
Speaker 16: If one person in a room has COVID and sneezes,

3418
03:22:27,720 --> 03:22:29,879
Speaker 16: a bunch of people around them have a very good

3419
03:22:29,920 --> 03:22:32,740
Speaker 16: chance of getting infected, especially if they're not vaccinated, right?

3420
03:22:33,300 --> 03:22:36,620
Speaker 16: Pneumonic plague does not work this way. There's a very

3421
03:22:36,680 --> 03:22:40,770
Speaker 16: good CNN interview with virologist Angela Rasmussen, and she points

3422
03:22:40,850 --> 03:22:43,570
Speaker 16: out that this plague variant requires a lot of contact

3423
03:22:43,610 --> 03:22:46,770
Speaker 16: with the infected person. And even someone dying of plague

3424
03:22:46,830 --> 03:22:49,610
Speaker 16: is not coughing up a bunch of infectious material, right?

3425
03:22:49,650 --> 03:22:52,869
Speaker 16: It's just not the same kind of illness in any way, shape,

3426
03:22:52,930 --> 03:22:55,880
Speaker 16: or form. This is why none of the contained people

3427
03:22:55,920 --> 03:22:58,580
Speaker 16: who were close to Daria have gotten sick. Pneumonic plague

3428
03:22:58,620 --> 03:23:02,910
Speaker 16: victims are not super infectious. That interview with Dr. Rasmussen

3429
03:23:02,950 --> 03:23:05,810
Speaker 16: also brought up a very good point. This anti-plague lab

3430
03:23:05,870 --> 03:23:09,289
Speaker 16: is being described often as like a bioweapons factory. And

3431
03:23:09,310 --> 03:23:12,410
Speaker 16: the Russian state has surely done weapons research at this

3432
03:23:12,490 --> 03:23:14,970
Speaker 16: and other similar facilities. I'm not going to doubt that.

3433
03:23:15,740 --> 03:23:18,540
Speaker 16: But if absolutely no one anywhere on planet Earth was

3434
03:23:18,580 --> 03:23:22,720
Speaker 16: doing any bioreapons research, this facility would still exist because

3435
03:23:22,820 --> 03:23:24,660
Speaker 16: plague is endemic to the region.

3436
03:23:24,920 --> 03:23:25,520
Speaker 2: Right. Right.

3437
03:23:25,720 --> 03:23:28,119
Speaker 16: It's not there's not plague in this facility because the

3438
03:23:28,150 --> 03:23:31,189
Speaker 16: Russian government loves cooking up plague. It's because this part

3439
03:23:31,209 --> 03:23:34,470
Speaker 16: of Siberia, tons of animals have the plague and people

3440
03:23:34,510 --> 03:23:35,550
Speaker 16: get plague all.

3441
03:23:35,430 --> 03:23:38,140
Speaker 2: The time in this part of the world. This is

3442
03:23:38,160 --> 03:23:39,900
Speaker 2: the exact same thing with like Wuhan and like the

3443
03:23:40,040 --> 03:23:42,020
Speaker 2: Wuhan CDC there, which is like, yeah, there's a bunch

3444
03:23:42,040 --> 03:23:45,730
Speaker 2: of infectious disease research there because that's a bunch of

3445
03:23:45,750 --> 03:23:47,670
Speaker 2: bats there. This is where you do it.

3446
03:23:48,030 --> 03:23:48,250
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3447
03:23:48,290 --> 03:23:50,030
Speaker 2: You put you put the lab in the place where

3448
03:23:50,050 --> 03:23:50,730
Speaker 2: stuff is happening.

3449
03:23:51,190 --> 03:23:51,550
Speaker 11: Right.

3450
03:23:51,590 --> 03:23:51,940
Speaker 2: Study it.

3451
03:23:52,510 --> 03:23:57,030
Speaker 16: And yeah, plague is carried by animals. And by the way, Siberia,

3452
03:23:57,090 --> 03:23:59,210
Speaker 16: this part of eastern Russia is not the only place

3453
03:23:59,250 --> 03:24:03,100
Speaker 16: where plague is super endemic. The Midwestern U.S. is riddled

3454
03:24:03,160 --> 03:24:06,420
Speaker 16: with plague carrying prairie dogs and occasionally a person here.

3455
03:24:06,459 --> 03:24:06,619
Speaker 8: Yeah.

3456
03:24:06,980 --> 03:24:07,680
Speaker 11: Right. California.

3457
03:24:07,720 --> 03:24:09,080
Speaker 16: I'm not saying that's not the end. Those aren't the

3458
03:24:09,140 --> 03:24:12,260
Speaker 16: only animals that can give you plague. Occasionally, a person

3459
03:24:12,280 --> 03:24:14,820
Speaker 16: will catch bubonic plague in this country, which is a

3460
03:24:14,920 --> 03:24:17,720
Speaker 16: variant of the same disease as pneumonic plague, and they'll

3461
03:24:17,740 --> 03:24:20,529
Speaker 16: get it from, you know, some fucking animal. you may

3462
03:24:20,610 --> 03:24:22,880
Speaker 16: recall that the whole U.S. has not been wiped out

3463
03:24:22,920 --> 03:24:25,060
Speaker 16: by an outbreak of the bubonic plague. This is because

3464
03:24:25,100 --> 03:24:28,480
Speaker 16: the bubonic plague is super treatable, but also not super

3465
03:24:28,660 --> 03:24:31,840
Speaker 16: easy to spread in the modern world. This may sound

3466
03:24:31,910 --> 03:24:34,410
Speaker 16: weird given that bubonic plague wiped out much of Europe,

3467
03:24:34,430 --> 03:24:37,290
Speaker 16: but that was because the primary vectors for plague are

3468
03:24:37,370 --> 03:24:41,949
Speaker 16: wild animals that bite people and fleas from infected animals.

3469
03:24:42,390 --> 03:24:45,470
Speaker 16: The OG plague took centuries to get its teeth into

3470
03:24:45,510 --> 03:24:48,300
Speaker 16: the populace and only succeeded because back then people lived

3471
03:24:48,360 --> 03:24:51,560
Speaker 16: in super close contact with livestock and had no real

3472
03:24:51,600 --> 03:24:53,740
Speaker 16: way of dealing with fleas. And we also didn't have

3473
03:24:53,780 --> 03:24:54,640
Speaker 16: like antibiotics.

3474
03:24:54,920 --> 03:24:55,180
Speaker 11: Right.

3475
03:24:55,560 --> 03:24:55,900
Speaker 7: Yeah.

3476
03:24:56,000 --> 03:24:58,520
Speaker 16: You know, there's a there's a ton of reasons why

3477
03:24:58,580 --> 03:25:01,890
Speaker 16: that that happened then. And it doesn't happen now. Now,

3478
03:25:01,920 --> 03:25:05,250
Speaker 16: not to say. a treatment-resistant form of the plague that's

3479
03:25:05,330 --> 03:25:09,910
Speaker 16: more infectious couldn't spread and evolve under these conditions. There's

3480
03:25:09,930 --> 03:25:12,450
Speaker 16: just not any evidence that that's happened yet, right? And

3481
03:25:12,490 --> 03:25:14,830
Speaker 16: so I would say this is not really something that

3482
03:25:14,850 --> 03:25:16,890
Speaker 16: should be on your front burner of concern.

3483
03:25:17,370 --> 03:25:20,350
Speaker 2: And, like, in terms of, like, where a disease like

3484
03:25:20,379 --> 03:25:23,119
Speaker 2: this would come from, this is something that Angelus, like,

3485
03:25:23,160 --> 03:25:26,560
Speaker 2: talked about before. Like, the odds that this comes from

3486
03:25:26,580 --> 03:25:30,380
Speaker 2: a bioweapons lab is significantly lower than the odds that

3487
03:25:30,400 --> 03:25:33,750
Speaker 2: it comes from just, like, a factory farm. where you

3488
03:25:33,770 --> 03:25:35,890
Speaker 2: have all these animals in really close containment and diseases

3489
03:25:35,910 --> 03:25:40,279
Speaker 2: spread extremely fast and get to mutate extremely quickly. That's

3490
03:25:40,320 --> 03:25:44,700
Speaker 2: like the primary disease factor risk is that and the

3491
03:25:44,760 --> 03:25:45,900
Speaker 2: human contact in the wild.

3492
03:25:46,540 --> 03:25:49,200
Speaker 16: Yeah, that's a great point, Mia. And we should probably

3493
03:25:49,260 --> 03:25:51,680
Speaker 16: move to ads right now. And then when we come back,

3494
03:25:51,860 --> 03:25:55,130
Speaker 16: I will talk about Brazil, which is honestly a little

3495
03:25:55,150 --> 03:25:56,550
Speaker 16: more worrying than the plague right now.

3496
03:26:07,220 --> 03:26:08,080
Speaker 2: And we're back.

3497
03:26:09,160 --> 03:26:12,820
Speaker 16: So moving across the world to what some people call

3498
03:26:12,840 --> 03:26:16,260
Speaker 16: the Russia of South America. Not me and not anyone

3499
03:26:16,330 --> 03:26:19,429
Speaker 16: I know. But you could call Brazil that. It wouldn't

3500
03:26:19,470 --> 03:26:21,490
Speaker 16: be very accurate, but you could call them that.

3501
03:26:21,510 --> 03:26:21,970
Speaker 2: It's big.

3502
03:26:22,310 --> 03:26:26,190
Speaker 16: Flavio Bolsonaro emerged ahead of the current Brazilian President Lula

3503
03:26:26,290 --> 03:26:29,550
Speaker 16: in the first round of voting. Neither candidate emerged with

3504
03:26:29,590 --> 03:26:32,250
Speaker 16: an outright majority, so the election will proceed to a runoff.

3505
03:26:32,290 --> 03:26:34,860
Speaker 16: But most experts seem to consider Flavio's victory all but

3506
03:26:34,879 --> 03:26:38,480
Speaker 16: a foregone conclusion at this point. Political consulting firm Think

3507
03:26:38,580 --> 03:26:39,940
Speaker 16: Policy told Reuters they had.

3508
03:26:40,030 --> 03:26:41,029
Speaker 2: estimated Lula.

3509
03:26:40,770 --> 03:26:44,070
Speaker 16: Would need to win 62% of voters who supported other

3510
03:26:44,129 --> 03:26:46,529
Speaker 16: conservative candidates in the first round of voting to have

3511
03:26:46,570 --> 03:26:50,030
Speaker 16: a chance. This does not seem likely. If you read

3512
03:26:50,080 --> 03:26:52,140
Speaker 16: a lot of coverage of this election, one thing you'll

3513
03:26:52,180 --> 03:26:54,699
Speaker 16: encounter is that every expert on Brazilian politics is very

3514
03:26:54,740 --> 03:26:57,740
Speaker 16: convinced that Flavio's presidency will be an extension of Jair

3515
03:26:57,760 --> 03:27:01,610
Speaker 16: Bolsonaro's presidency. A lot of Brazilian voters are convinced, and

3516
03:27:01,690 --> 03:27:03,910
Speaker 16: in fact, it's probable that most people who voted for

3517
03:27:03,950 --> 03:27:08,690
Speaker 16: Flavio did so because they wanted another term for Jair, right?

3518
03:27:09,110 --> 03:27:11,950
Speaker 16: Flavio himself said at a recent rally, I ask God

3519
03:27:12,000 --> 03:27:14,700
Speaker 16: for the opportunity to walk up the ramp of Planalto

3520
03:27:14,740 --> 03:27:18,599
Speaker 16: Palace next year alongside President Jair Omecia's Bolsonaro, right?

3521
03:27:18,920 --> 03:27:19,320
Speaker 11: It's a pretty.

3522
03:27:19,700 --> 03:27:24,000
Speaker 16: Pretty clear signposting there. Jair is currently serving a 27

3523
03:27:24,000 --> 03:27:27,480
Speaker 16: year sentence from house arrest. He is legally forbidden from

3524
03:27:27,520 --> 03:27:30,110
Speaker 16: holding office again as a result of his conviction over.

3525
03:27:29,990 --> 03:27:30,730
Speaker 2: The coup attempt.

3526
03:27:31,230 --> 03:27:34,070
Speaker 16: Flavio has promised to seek amnesty for not just his father,

3527
03:27:34,129 --> 03:27:36,950
Speaker 16: but for the rioters who marched on Brazil's capital to

3528
03:27:36,970 --> 03:27:39,920
Speaker 16: keep his father in office. He's also promised to impeach

3529
03:27:39,980 --> 03:27:43,220
Speaker 16: the Supreme Court justices who ruled against Jair and his supporters.

3530
03:27:43,810 --> 03:27:46,790
Speaker 16: This is deeply concerning for a number of reasons. I

3531
03:27:46,810 --> 03:27:48,630
Speaker 16: want to quote from a New York Times article that

3532
03:27:48,670 --> 03:27:51,880
Speaker 16: came out today on the subject. The Bolsonaro family's comeback

3533
03:27:51,950 --> 03:27:55,140
Speaker 16: mirrors the enduring hold of other powerful political dynasties around

3534
03:27:55,180 --> 03:27:58,320
Speaker 16: the world, including the Marquesas in the Philippines, the Sharifs

3535
03:27:58,379 --> 03:28:02,720
Speaker 16: in Pakistan, the Fujimoris in Peru, and the Kirchners in Argentina.

3536
03:28:03,080 --> 03:28:03,500
Speaker 2: But Mr.

3537
03:28:03,580 --> 03:28:06,470
Speaker 16: Lula's political movement has failed to produce a successor and

3538
03:28:06,520 --> 03:28:09,030
Speaker 16: appears to have lost touch with its base as many

3539
03:28:09,070 --> 03:28:11,510
Speaker 16: Brazilians link it to corruption and government mismanagement.

3540
03:28:12,050 --> 03:28:12,390
Speaker 2: If Mr.

3541
03:28:12,410 --> 03:28:15,250
Speaker 16: Bolsonaro now succeeds in unseating his leftist rival in the

3542
03:28:15,290 --> 03:28:18,650
Speaker 16: October 25th runoff, he would gain unusually broad powers to

3543
03:28:18,690 --> 03:28:20,869
Speaker 16: shape Brazil. The next president will be able to appoint

3544
03:28:21,000 --> 03:28:23,500
Speaker 16: up to four new justices in this nation's Supreme Court,

3545
03:28:23,620 --> 03:28:27,120
Speaker 16: which has 11 seats in total. So one thing that's

3546
03:28:27,180 --> 03:28:30,380
Speaker 16: really worrying about this is that Flavio and, you know,

3547
03:28:31,040 --> 03:28:34,560
Speaker 16: Jair kind of through the transit of property will have

3548
03:28:34,640 --> 03:28:38,490
Speaker 16: nearly total power. When he takes office, for a lot

3549
03:28:38,530 --> 03:28:41,750
Speaker 16: of very frustrating reasons to do with the way Brazil's

3550
03:28:42,060 --> 03:28:45,920
Speaker 16: democracy is structured, there's very little, if anything, in the

3551
03:28:45,980 --> 03:28:52,800
Speaker 16: way of constitutional governing rails that would limit what Flavio

3552
03:28:52,840 --> 03:28:57,759
Speaker 16: can do. This is an extremely concerning situation. It's very dispiriting.

3553
03:28:57,780 --> 03:29:01,870
Speaker 16: It's a good reason not to listen to, quite frankly,

3554
03:29:02,310 --> 03:29:07,740
Speaker 16: most of the Western left's takes on things. politics outside of,

3555
03:29:08,520 --> 03:29:11,190
Speaker 16: and sometimes including the United States. Because if you would

3556
03:29:11,230 --> 03:29:14,030
Speaker 16: listen to what people were saying about Lula prior to this,

3557
03:29:14,190 --> 03:29:18,470
Speaker 16: it's entirely like he's this wonderful, like leftist hero. And

3558
03:29:18,970 --> 03:29:21,050
Speaker 16: the reality is, you know, Lula has done some great things.

3559
03:29:21,110 --> 03:29:24,550
Speaker 16: He has some great political stances, but you can't look

3560
03:29:24,610 --> 03:29:26,910
Speaker 16: at his regime as anything but a failure if it's

3561
03:29:26,970 --> 03:29:31,300
Speaker 16: led to Bolsonarism, right? It failed to stop this, you know?

3562
03:29:31,790 --> 03:29:35,810
Speaker 16: It just says twice Biden failed, just as Clinton failed. Right.

3563
03:29:35,870 --> 03:29:38,810
Speaker 16: Just as Obama failed to stop the rise of Trump.

3564
03:29:39,310 --> 03:29:39,529
Speaker 9: Right.

3565
03:29:39,750 --> 03:29:43,670
Speaker 16: We can't pretend that in this case, because we can

3566
03:29:43,730 --> 03:29:46,950
Speaker 16: ignore the downsides and the failures of Lula's regime because

3567
03:29:46,970 --> 03:29:47,990
Speaker 16: we don't live in Brazil.

3568
03:29:48,400 --> 03:29:51,240
Speaker 2: That like he didn't fail. He did.

3569
03:29:51,560 --> 03:29:54,539
Speaker 16: You know, and and that's just something the left has

3570
03:29:54,560 --> 03:29:57,580
Speaker 16: to grapple with. Like this is a guy who said

3571
03:29:57,640 --> 03:29:59,140
Speaker 16: and did a lot of the right things and who

3572
03:29:59,180 --> 03:30:05,280
Speaker 16: went pretty hard after prosecuting. and it was a catastrophic failure.

3573
03:30:05,860 --> 03:30:06,760
Speaker 16: I don't know what else to say.

3574
03:30:07,500 --> 03:30:11,220
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think something I've talked about, back

3575
03:30:11,280 --> 03:30:14,840
Speaker 2: in the last election, I did a very long series

3576
03:30:14,860 --> 03:30:17,010
Speaker 2: of episodes on Lula, and one of the sort of

3577
03:30:17,030 --> 03:30:19,970
Speaker 2: structural problems of the program of the Workers' Party was

3578
03:30:19,990 --> 03:30:22,709
Speaker 2: that it was always dependent on the commodity boom and

3579
03:30:23,570 --> 03:30:25,250
Speaker 2: the massive export prices you get from that. And the

3580
03:30:25,300 --> 03:30:28,459
Speaker 2: moment the commodity boom collapsed, the entire project was on

3581
03:30:28,520 --> 03:30:32,300
Speaker 2: borrowed time, Because it became impossible to do the kind of, like,

3582
03:30:32,840 --> 03:30:36,340
Speaker 2: sort of class negotiation of redistributing a bunch of the

3583
03:30:36,379 --> 03:30:40,180
Speaker 2: profits from the commodities they were selling overseas and, like,

3584
03:30:40,280 --> 03:30:44,690
Speaker 2: raising living conditions for people while paying off Bolivia's sort of, like,

3585
03:30:44,870 --> 03:30:48,929
Speaker 2: oligarchical ruling class. And the moment that coalition fell apart,

3586
03:30:50,410 --> 03:30:52,530
Speaker 2: you know, everything went to shit. And the problem is, like,

3587
03:30:52,550 --> 03:30:56,710
Speaker 2: there isn't really a way to deal with Bolsonaro without, like,

3588
03:30:57,250 --> 03:31:01,430
Speaker 2: systemically going through and, like, destroying the media oligarchy and

3589
03:31:01,650 --> 03:31:04,230
Speaker 2: a whole bunch of different sectors of the Brazilian ruling class,

3590
03:31:04,530 --> 03:31:08,890
Speaker 2: but Lula wasn't... It was a difficult position for them

3591
03:31:09,050 --> 03:31:11,390
Speaker 2: even in the 2000s when they had a really, really

3592
03:31:11,470 --> 03:31:15,490
Speaker 2: strong political mandate, and there wasn't any way to do

3593
03:31:15,590 --> 03:31:20,290
Speaker 2: it even if they'd wanted to under the last electoral coalition,

3594
03:31:20,310 --> 03:31:22,270
Speaker 2: which was this very fragile coalition with a bunch of

3595
03:31:22,770 --> 03:31:30,010
Speaker 2: anti-Bolsonaro conservatives and this... weird parliamentary left center, right coalition

3596
03:31:30,230 --> 03:31:31,670
Speaker 2: that ended up with a bunch of sort of like

3597
03:31:32,580 --> 03:31:37,099
Speaker 2: very shitty, like neoliberal economic policy going through that, like

3598
03:31:37,220 --> 03:31:41,720
Speaker 2: just continue to enable sort of Bolsonaro ism. And yeah,

3599
03:31:41,760 --> 03:31:44,080
Speaker 2: you have to grapple with like, if you aren't able

3600
03:31:44,120 --> 03:31:47,930
Speaker 2: to fundamentally destroy like the material basis of your opponents,

3601
03:31:47,950 --> 03:31:50,630
Speaker 2: they're eventually going to overthrow you and you're going to

3602
03:31:50,650 --> 03:31:51,110
Speaker 2: be back here.

3603
03:31:51,129 --> 03:31:51,769
Speaker 4: Yep.

3604
03:31:52,209 --> 03:31:52,429
Speaker 10: Yep.

3605
03:31:52,629 --> 03:31:53,900
Speaker 2: It's, uh, I don't know.

3606
03:31:54,060 --> 03:31:57,420
Speaker 16: It's disappointing. We'll have more coverage on this in the

3607
03:31:57,480 --> 03:32:00,680
Speaker 16: future because this is really important, right? Just as it's

3608
03:32:00,730 --> 03:32:04,290
Speaker 16: very important to look at what's happening in Hungary right

3609
03:32:04,330 --> 03:32:07,789
Speaker 16: now as like an example of what a post-Trump United

3610
03:32:07,830 --> 03:32:10,390
Speaker 16: States might look like. It's very important to look at

3611
03:32:10,629 --> 03:32:14,390
Speaker 16: Lula's and his coalition's failures in terms of like, well,

3612
03:32:14,990 --> 03:32:18,650
Speaker 16: number one, this also does mirror in some ways mirrors

3613
03:32:18,709 --> 03:32:21,769
Speaker 16: what happened with Biden. But this is also evidence of

3614
03:32:21,830 --> 03:32:25,600
Speaker 16: like You don't want to take anything too directly because, again,

3615
03:32:25,620 --> 03:32:28,350
Speaker 16: these are all very different countries and very different from

3616
03:32:28,390 --> 03:32:31,629
Speaker 16: the United States. But there are some there are some

3617
03:32:31,770 --> 03:32:35,490
Speaker 16: lessons here for the entire world and like how hard

3618
03:32:35,530 --> 03:32:41,750
Speaker 16: it is to unseat an authoritarian regime that is entirely

3619
03:32:41,830 --> 03:32:47,020
Speaker 16: predicated on making stupid, easy promises to people. Right. as

3620
03:32:47,080 --> 03:32:50,379
Speaker 16: opposed to coalitions that are attempting to do the very

3621
03:32:50,459 --> 03:32:55,900
Speaker 16: difficult job of governing. And that you're always going to

3622
03:32:55,959 --> 03:32:58,180
Speaker 16: be in an uphill battle if the other guy is

3623
03:32:58,300 --> 03:33:02,580
Speaker 16: just spouting fantasies. And if the media goes along with it,

3624
03:33:02,600 --> 03:33:03,610
Speaker 16: that's a huge part of it.

3625
03:33:03,660 --> 03:33:07,440
Speaker 10: The media aspect is a huge part of this. As

3626
03:33:08,000 --> 03:33:09,680
Speaker 10: much as this is a warning for us going forward,

3627
03:33:09,700 --> 03:33:12,590
Speaker 10: I think this is an example of like, What if

3628
03:33:12,650 --> 03:33:15,330
Speaker 10: someone even much more progressive than Joe Biden would take

3629
03:33:15,390 --> 03:33:16,500
Speaker 10: office in 2028?

3630
03:33:16,500 --> 03:33:18,760
Speaker 2: What if we get a sort of ineffectual... social.

3631
03:33:18,540 --> 03:33:21,609
Speaker 10: Democratic administration right who who might who might actually do

3632
03:33:21,670 --> 03:33:22,310
Speaker 10: some things that.

3633
03:33:22,270 --> 03:33:24,750
Speaker 16: Are might say the right things and fail and.

3634
03:33:25,010 --> 03:33:26,950
Speaker 14: Or and might even do things that are kind of.

3635
03:33:26,910 --> 03:33:30,110
Speaker 10: Sensible might might actually put forward some good policies yeah

3636
03:33:30,550 --> 03:33:33,459
Speaker 10: but that just not end up mattering because of whatever

3637
03:33:33,680 --> 03:33:36,400
Speaker 10: whatever kind of structural limitations they hit whatever kind of

3638
03:33:36,580 --> 03:33:39,880
Speaker 10: uh media narratives really really take hold uh you you

3639
03:33:39,920 --> 03:33:42,670
Speaker 10: see this kind of really big focus on like and

3640
03:33:42,730 --> 03:33:46,270
Speaker 10: corruption on the right right now. That's a big part

3641
03:33:46,310 --> 03:33:48,850
Speaker 10: of what government is supposed to do. And this is

3642
03:33:48,870 --> 03:33:50,990
Speaker 10: something that Zoran has tried to take by the horns

3643
03:33:51,030 --> 03:33:54,030
Speaker 10: and try to make sure that the right can't fully

3644
03:33:54,110 --> 03:33:56,400
Speaker 10: co-opt that sort of language. Be like, if we want

3645
03:33:56,420 --> 03:33:59,459
Speaker 10: to have a a socialist or a social democratic government.

3646
03:33:59,840 --> 03:34:01,660
Speaker 10: It needs to be efficient, and that should be actually

3647
03:34:01,820 --> 03:34:02,600
Speaker 10: real efficiency.

3648
03:34:03,160 --> 03:34:05,539
Speaker 16: I continue to think one of the things that any

3649
03:34:05,640 --> 03:34:09,990
Speaker 16: leftist movement trying to unseat authoritarianism in the United States

3650
03:34:10,050 --> 03:34:13,990
Speaker 16: particularly needs to have as a central issue is fighting

3651
03:34:14,129 --> 03:34:15,750
Speaker 16: fraud and fighting scams.

3652
03:34:16,070 --> 03:34:16,209
Speaker 8: Yeah.

3653
03:34:16,770 --> 03:34:19,550
Speaker 16: Almost nothing is more important from an electoral standpoint, in

3654
03:34:19,590 --> 03:34:20,090
Speaker 16: my opinion.

3655
03:34:20,390 --> 03:34:20,629
Speaker 2: Yeah.

3656
03:34:21,190 --> 03:34:25,470
Speaker 10: There's a new poll from KFF looking at issues that

3657
03:34:25,730 --> 03:34:29,490
Speaker 10: voters care about for the midterms cost of living is

3658
03:34:29,510 --> 03:34:33,130
Speaker 10: the top issue for democratic and independent voters yeah while

3659
03:34:33,209 --> 03:34:38,040
Speaker 10: republican voters while republican voters want candidates to discuss quote

3660
03:34:38,220 --> 03:34:41,820
Speaker 10: fraud and i think that's a really interesting look at

3661
03:34:41,860 --> 03:34:44,740
Speaker 10: where we are right now as a country yeah.

3662
03:34:44,580 --> 03:34:46,410
Speaker 2: I think i think tying this back to brazil too

3663
03:34:46,440 --> 03:34:48,150
Speaker 2: like this is one of the problems that the pt

3664
03:34:48,190 --> 03:34:50,810
Speaker 2: the workers party had was like the way that the

3665
03:34:50,830 --> 03:34:55,170
Speaker 2: media was able to steer like all anti-corruption stuff in Brazil,

3666
03:34:55,330 --> 03:34:58,410
Speaker 2: like ended up going after the workers party, even though

3667
03:34:58,709 --> 03:35:01,420
Speaker 2: all of the corruption scandals implicated literally everyone across the

3668
03:35:01,440 --> 03:35:02,420
Speaker 2: entire political spectrum.

3669
03:35:02,720 --> 03:35:02,920
Speaker 16: Yeah.

3670
03:35:03,240 --> 03:35:04,840
Speaker 2: Like this is part of what happened this election where like,

3671
03:35:04,860 --> 03:35:07,520
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of fraud scandals with like the Supreme court,

3672
03:35:07,920 --> 03:35:11,300
Speaker 2: but that's been like tied to Lula. And he's the

3673
03:35:11,320 --> 03:35:12,720
Speaker 2: one who's taken the hit from it, even though it

3674
03:35:12,760 --> 03:35:16,110
Speaker 2: also involves like all of the right-wing political parties. And that's,

3675
03:35:16,150 --> 03:35:18,420
Speaker 2: that's like one of the dangers of sort of, I

3676
03:35:18,459 --> 03:35:20,420
Speaker 2: don't know, it's like one of the persistent problems of

3677
03:35:21,060 --> 03:35:24,100
Speaker 2: the way that fraud and the way that anti-corruption politics

3678
03:35:24,160 --> 03:35:29,160
Speaker 2: get deployed by the right. That's just this decades-long issue.

3679
03:35:29,840 --> 03:35:32,320
Speaker 10: Another weird example of this is that the mayor of

3680
03:35:32,340 --> 03:35:36,340
Speaker 10: New York went on to a podcast by a guy

3681
03:35:36,360 --> 03:35:38,560
Speaker 10: named Theo Vaughn, if you're familiar.

3682
03:35:38,740 --> 03:35:42,179
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know Theo Vaughn. Jesus Christ, yeah.

3683
03:35:42,550 --> 03:35:45,930
Speaker 10: And one interesting thing that happened is Zoran was talking

3684
03:35:45,950 --> 03:35:50,600
Speaker 10: about how the city just secured a historic $ 130 million

3685
03:35:50,680 --> 03:35:53,560
Speaker 10: settlement from DoorDash. And $ 115 million of that is going

3686
03:35:53,580 --> 03:35:57,340
Speaker 10: to go directly to DoorDash workers, who DoorDash was underpaying

3687
03:35:57,400 --> 03:36:01,990
Speaker 10: for years, with workers receiving anywhere between $ 500 to thousands

3688
03:36:02,000 --> 03:36:05,449
Speaker 10: of dollars in pay that was stolen from them. But

3689
03:36:05,570 --> 03:36:09,289
Speaker 10: part of this settlement is also $ 16 million in civil

3690
03:36:09,310 --> 03:36:12,830
Speaker 10: penalties and funding to build this tool, which will be

3691
03:36:12,870 --> 03:36:16,439
Speaker 10: operated by the city and workers to monitor DoorDash To

3692
03:36:16,480 --> 03:36:18,740
Speaker 10: make sure that they don't rip off their workers going forward.

3693
03:36:19,040 --> 03:36:22,060
Speaker 10: And something that was very interesting. When Theo heard that,

3694
03:36:22,100 --> 03:36:25,710
Speaker 10: he's like, why? Why would you use that money? Why

3695
03:36:25,750 --> 03:36:29,330
Speaker 10: not just give that money to the workers? He kind

3696
03:36:29,350 --> 03:36:33,480
Speaker 10: of inquired. about this as a possible example of fraud.

3697
03:36:33,740 --> 03:36:36,959
Speaker 10: Why is the city taking $ 16 million? Is it actually

3698
03:36:36,980 --> 03:36:39,660
Speaker 10: going to be good, or is that another example of

3699
03:36:39,700 --> 03:36:42,879
Speaker 10: fraud and corruption? And I think that's a really interesting

3700
03:36:42,959 --> 03:36:48,320
Speaker 10: look at the mind of the kind of right-wing focus

3701
03:36:48,459 --> 03:36:50,700
Speaker 10: on fraud. Of like, no, that money is actually going

3702
03:36:50,740 --> 03:36:52,900
Speaker 10: to build a tool to make sure that DoorDash cannot

3703
03:36:52,980 --> 03:36:56,470
Speaker 10: defraud its own workers going forward and will be operated

3704
03:36:56,510 --> 03:36:59,550
Speaker 10: by the city and workers themselves. But it's a really

3705
03:36:59,670 --> 03:37:04,629
Speaker 10: interesting look at this sort of distrust. And even in

3706
03:37:04,670 --> 03:37:05,970
Speaker 10: something like a $ 130 million settlement.

3707
03:37:08,740 --> 03:37:11,820
Speaker 10: Just, you know, historically, that's the largest worker, like, labor

3708
03:37:11,840 --> 03:37:13,180
Speaker 10: settlement in municipal history.

3709
03:37:13,200 --> 03:37:14,760
Speaker 16: That's massive, yeah.

3710
03:37:15,220 --> 03:37:17,360
Speaker 10: Even in that, there's this kind of, like, you know,

3711
03:37:17,379 --> 03:37:20,940
Speaker 10: like a worry in the mind of the right that

3712
03:37:20,980 --> 03:37:23,020
Speaker 10: somehow this will be used for, you know, fraudulent means.

3713
03:37:23,360 --> 03:37:23,620
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3714
03:37:24,260 --> 03:37:26,920
Speaker 16: I do want to reiterate here, like, when I say that, like,

3715
03:37:27,120 --> 03:37:29,619
Speaker 16: Lula failed, that's not even coming from a point of necessarily, like,

3716
03:37:29,720 --> 03:37:30,920
Speaker 16: moral condemnation.

3717
03:37:30,980 --> 03:37:34,080
Speaker 2: It's just like... We lost. We have to be factual.

3718
03:37:34,140 --> 03:37:36,150
Speaker 2: It didn't work. We have to look at what went

3719
03:37:36,200 --> 03:37:36,730
Speaker 2: wrong here.

3720
03:37:36,780 --> 03:37:39,940
Speaker 16: You can't just pretend that this... This was a good

3721
03:37:40,620 --> 03:37:44,849
Speaker 16: presidency because he said the right things and went after Bolsonaro.

3722
03:37:44,890 --> 03:37:47,660
Speaker 16: We lost, right? We have to deal with that. We

3723
03:37:47,680 --> 03:37:49,680
Speaker 16: have to play the ball where it fucking lies, right?

3724
03:37:50,470 --> 03:37:50,810
Speaker 2: Anyway.

3725
03:37:51,250 --> 03:37:55,270
Speaker 16: Let's talk about Dennis Hastert, huh? Everybody loves old Denny.

3726
03:37:55,330 --> 03:37:58,949
Speaker 16: Denny was his nickname. Unfortunately, too many people still do

3727
03:37:59,030 --> 03:37:59,450
Speaker 16: love Denny.

3728
03:37:59,470 --> 03:38:00,590
Speaker 2: Yeah, Jesus Christ.

3729
03:38:00,810 --> 03:38:04,150
Speaker 16: Yeah, a lot of people sharing our profession have some

3730
03:38:04,190 --> 03:38:08,369
Speaker 16: serious fucking issues. Multiple articles that I've read today all

3731
03:38:08,430 --> 03:38:10,970
Speaker 16: pointed out that he went by the nickname Denny and

3732
03:38:11,010 --> 03:38:14,910
Speaker 16: was considered a very cool and approachable Republican Speaker of

3733
03:38:14,950 --> 03:38:15,250
Speaker 16: the House.

3734
03:38:15,270 --> 03:38:18,030
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sure. Yeah, he was real approachable. He was

3735
03:38:18,110 --> 03:38:19,930
Speaker 2: approaching some fucking other people.

3736
03:38:20,879 --> 03:38:24,859
Speaker 16: I'm saying this because Dennis Hastert, the longest serving Republican

3737
03:38:24,910 --> 03:38:28,609
Speaker 16: speaker of the House and a serial pedophile, died earlier

3738
03:38:28,670 --> 03:38:32,830
Speaker 16: this week on October 5th. Hastert's legacy, such as it was,

3739
03:38:33,220 --> 03:38:36,400
Speaker 16: was ruined after he left office when regulators noticed a

3740
03:38:36,420 --> 03:38:40,000
Speaker 16: bunch of really weirdly structured payments that he initially characterized

3741
03:38:40,040 --> 03:38:43,820
Speaker 16: as blackmail payments based on false allegations. Oh, some guy

3742
03:38:44,340 --> 03:38:47,619
Speaker 16: made me, you know, is blackmailing me and it's all bullshit,

3743
03:38:47,680 --> 03:38:50,590
Speaker 16: but it's just easier to pay. This was a lie.

3744
03:38:50,709 --> 03:38:53,130
Speaker 16: The payments were to a man who, as a boy,

3745
03:38:53,170 --> 03:38:56,570
Speaker 16: had been molested and I think raped by Dennis. This

3746
03:38:56,590 --> 03:38:59,210
Speaker 16: was during his time as a high school wrestling coach.

3747
03:38:59,750 --> 03:39:03,550
Speaker 16: This guy was 14 when Hastert abused him, and when

3748
03:39:03,610 --> 03:39:06,379
Speaker 16: he approached the former Speaker of the House decades later,

3749
03:39:06,670 --> 03:39:10,879
Speaker 16: Hastert agreed to buy his silence with $ 3. 5 million in

3750
03:39:10,940 --> 03:39:13,660
Speaker 16: hush money. This is not an amount you would spend on, like,

3751
03:39:13,780 --> 03:39:16,360
Speaker 16: bullshit blackmail allegations, right?

3752
03:39:16,640 --> 03:39:19,320
Speaker 2: This is a fortune. Yeah, that's a lot of money.

3753
03:39:19,440 --> 03:39:23,000
Speaker 16: The financial crimes are the only ones Hastert was actually

3754
03:39:23,060 --> 03:39:25,780
Speaker 16: convicted over. His abuse of his students had occurred too

3755
03:39:25,840 --> 03:39:28,610
Speaker 16: long ago. The statute of limitations was up. But the

3756
03:39:28,629 --> 03:39:32,570
Speaker 16: resulting investigation and court case revealed at least four victims.

3757
03:39:32,650 --> 03:39:35,570
Speaker 16: And I don't know that I know of any convicted

3758
03:39:35,890 --> 03:39:40,350
Speaker 16: pedophiles who had four victims and only four victims, right?

3759
03:39:40,450 --> 03:39:43,109
Speaker 2: Yeah, once you're doing it a lot. Four came forward.

3760
03:39:43,140 --> 03:39:45,300
Speaker 16: This is a guy who was abusing kids in his

3761
03:39:45,420 --> 03:39:49,220
Speaker 16: years-long time as a wrestling coach.

3762
03:39:49,240 --> 03:39:50,500
Speaker 2: He had other victims.

3763
03:39:51,250 --> 03:39:56,090
Speaker 16: The judge in that case declared him a serial child molester. Now,

3764
03:39:56,240 --> 03:39:58,920
Speaker 16: the kind of abuse he engaged in varied. Sort of

3765
03:39:58,980 --> 03:40:01,459
Speaker 16: the most common thing that he did was he had

3766
03:40:01,500 --> 03:40:04,160
Speaker 16: a recliner that he set up outside of the boys'

3767
03:40:04,240 --> 03:40:04,879
Speaker 16: locker room.

3768
03:40:05,320 --> 03:40:07,050
Speaker 2: What? Jesus.

3769
03:40:07,340 --> 03:40:10,890
Speaker 16: He also engaged in fondling and outright rape on at

3770
03:40:10,950 --> 03:40:13,690
Speaker 16: least one occasion in the form of forced oral sex.

3771
03:40:14,129 --> 03:40:17,890
Speaker 16: Make no mistake, Dennis Hastert was a serial child rapist

3772
03:40:17,990 --> 03:40:22,000
Speaker 16: and molester. During his court case, he stated that, I

3773
03:40:22,050 --> 03:40:24,289
Speaker 16: want to apologize to the boys I mistreated when I

3774
03:40:24,330 --> 03:40:26,250
Speaker 16: was their coach, and the sisters of one of the

3775
03:40:26,290 --> 03:40:29,009
Speaker 16: victims said to him, Don't be a coward, Mr.

3776
03:40:29,070 --> 03:40:29,510
Speaker 11: Hastert.

3777
03:40:29,790 --> 03:40:32,730
Speaker 16: Tell the truth. What you did wasn't misconduct. It was

3778
03:40:32,790 --> 03:40:34,210
Speaker 16: sexual abuse of a minor.

3779
03:40:34,950 --> 03:40:36,000
Speaker 2: Now, that was.

3780
03:40:36,820 --> 03:40:39,870
Speaker 16: Solid speak it out in court on her part. A

3781
03:40:40,350 --> 03:40:43,429
Speaker 16: lot of journalists and media figures could stand to take

3782
03:40:43,490 --> 03:40:47,610
Speaker 16: a lesson from that. The AP's obituary for him just read,

3783
03:40:47,650 --> 03:40:50,920
Speaker 16: Dennis Hastert, longtime Republican House Speaker who went to prison,

3784
03:40:51,220 --> 03:40:52,300
Speaker 16: dies at age 84.

3785
03:40:52,300 --> 03:40:53,199
Speaker 2: Oh my God.

3786
03:40:53,240 --> 03:40:54,140
Speaker 11: Went to prison.

3787
03:40:54,800 --> 03:40:57,380
Speaker 2: Went to prison. Like he went on a visit to

3788
03:40:57,420 --> 03:40:58,039
Speaker 2: check it out.

3789
03:40:59,560 --> 03:41:00,160
Speaker 8: Why?

3790
03:41:00,180 --> 03:41:02,050
Speaker 2: Yeah. What could have happened there?

3791
03:41:03,010 --> 03:41:06,690
Speaker 16: Now, Fox's main article on him did note, although I

3792
03:41:06,730 --> 03:41:08,230
Speaker 16: think this may have been I'm not sure if this

3793
03:41:08,290 --> 03:41:11,200
Speaker 16: was like something they added after the fact, but it

3794
03:41:11,270 --> 03:41:14,939
Speaker 16: did call him like a child molester. However, and I'm

3795
03:41:14,980 --> 03:41:17,800
Speaker 16: going to quote here from an article in Yahoo News.

3796
03:41:18,379 --> 03:41:21,190
Speaker 16: Fox News gave former Republican House Speaker Dennis Hastert an

3797
03:41:21,330 --> 03:41:24,849
Speaker 16: in-memoriam send-off Monday, memorializing a man whom a federal judge

3798
03:41:24,870 --> 03:41:27,510
Speaker 16: called a serial child molester while relegating a sexual abuse

3799
03:41:27,550 --> 03:41:30,869
Speaker 16: of teenage boys to a brief reference to allegations that

3800
03:41:30,910 --> 03:41:34,310
Speaker 16: had tainted his reputation. As we go to break, former

3801
03:41:34,350 --> 03:41:37,330
Speaker 16: House Speaker Dennis Hastert has died, Bayer said, as archival

3802
03:41:37,350 --> 03:41:40,160
Speaker 16: footage played beneath a banner reading, in memoriam, former House

3803
03:41:40,180 --> 03:41:43,910
Speaker 16: Speaker Dennis Hastert dies at 84. Bayer then highlighted Hastert's

3804
03:41:43,970 --> 03:41:46,950
Speaker 16: political resume, noting that the Illinois Republican served as Speaker

3805
03:41:46,980 --> 03:41:50,459
Speaker 16: from 1999 to 2007, was the longest-serving Republican House Speaker

3806
03:41:50,500 --> 03:41:54,400
Speaker 16: in American history. Then came an extraordinarily sanitized depiction of

3807
03:41:54,440 --> 03:41:56,860
Speaker 16: why Hastert became one of the most disgraced political figures

3808
03:41:56,900 --> 03:42:00,180
Speaker 16: in modern American history. His reputation was later tainted by

3809
03:42:00,260 --> 03:42:02,450
Speaker 16: allegations he had molested athletes during his career as a

3810
03:42:02,490 --> 03:42:04,930
Speaker 16: teacher and wrestling coach, Bayer said. He spent more than

3811
03:42:04,950 --> 03:42:07,300
Speaker 16: a year in prison. Allegations?

3812
03:42:08,120 --> 03:42:08,260
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3813
03:42:08,340 --> 03:42:09,320
Speaker 2: Allegations.

3814
03:42:09,680 --> 03:42:12,700
Speaker 16: A judge called him a serial child molester. You don't

3815
03:42:12,720 --> 03:42:15,780
Speaker 16: have to say allegations anymore, Brett. You can just say

3816
03:42:15,830 --> 03:42:18,420
Speaker 16: he fucked kids. You're legally in the clear here. You're

3817
03:42:18,440 --> 03:42:20,490
Speaker 16: not going to get sued for just being a coward.

3818
03:42:20,850 --> 03:42:24,010
Speaker 16: Point to the judge. Like, who's going to sue you?

3819
03:42:24,129 --> 03:42:25,590
Speaker 16: Dennis Hastert's people?

3820
03:42:26,410 --> 03:42:28,789
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, do they really want that discovery?

3821
03:42:28,890 --> 03:42:30,410
Speaker 16: Like... Yeah.

3822
03:42:30,650 --> 03:42:31,450
Speaker 10: Okay, man.

3823
03:42:31,530 --> 03:42:35,050
Speaker 16: Go for it. Anyway, that's all I got.

3824
03:42:36,100 --> 03:42:38,720
Speaker 17: Last Tuesday, in a short and unsigned order, the Supreme

3825
03:42:38,760 --> 03:42:42,100
Speaker 17: Court allowed the Trump administration to continue sending people to

3826
03:42:42,160 --> 03:42:43,900
Speaker 17: countries that are not their own.

3827
03:42:44,280 --> 03:42:44,960
Speaker 2: It's a process.

3828
03:42:45,060 --> 03:42:49,460
Speaker 16: It's often referred to as third country deportation. It's hard

3829
03:42:49,500 --> 03:42:52,740
Speaker 16: not to see this as just rendition, right? Like you're

3830
03:42:53,060 --> 03:42:55,720
Speaker 16: sending people to places where they have no ties, often

3831
03:42:55,780 --> 03:43:00,100
Speaker 16: to be tortured. The court will hear oral arguments about

3832
03:43:00,120 --> 03:43:01,539
Speaker 16: this in December, but for now.

3833
03:43:01,580 --> 03:43:04,099
Speaker 2: This practice can continue. This is manifesting.

3834
03:43:04,709 --> 03:43:08,030
Speaker 17: In New York, for example, in the removal of people

3835
03:43:08,090 --> 03:43:11,710
Speaker 17: who have a status called withholding of removal. According to

3836
03:43:11,750 --> 03:43:15,359
Speaker 17: reporting in the City Reporter and documented, people with this status,

3837
03:43:15,459 --> 03:43:19,039
Speaker 17: which there's a very high burden of proof for this, right?

3838
03:43:19,080 --> 03:43:23,350
Speaker 17: Like it's a higher burden of proof than just saying it.

3839
03:43:23,490 --> 03:43:25,609
Speaker 17: People have to prove that they will be in danger

3840
03:43:25,750 --> 03:43:29,510
Speaker 17: if they're returned. they're being called into federal buildings for a, quote,

3841
03:43:29,709 --> 03:43:33,530
Speaker 17: ICE check-in. They're sent these very brief letters or document

3842
03:43:33,610 --> 03:43:38,390
Speaker 17: update or some pretext for bringing them into buildings where

3843
03:43:38,410 --> 03:43:43,740
Speaker 17: they're then detained and sent to third countries. The Trump

3844
03:43:43,820 --> 03:43:46,780
Speaker 17: administration has been doing this more and more. It's trying

3845
03:43:46,860 --> 03:43:50,720
Speaker 17: to find loopholes in the law, which is very clearly

3846
03:43:50,760 --> 03:43:54,560
Speaker 17: designed to protect very vulnerable people and prevent a risk

3847
03:43:54,600 --> 03:43:57,750
Speaker 17: of what is called chain refoulement. Chain refoulement, if you're

3848
03:43:57,770 --> 03:43:59,690
Speaker 17: not familiar, is a process whereby someone is sent back

3849
03:43:59,730 --> 03:44:02,360
Speaker 17: to their country where they have proven they're not safe

3850
03:44:03,420 --> 03:44:06,620
Speaker 17: by route of a third country. So let's say I'm

3851
03:44:06,660 --> 03:44:08,620
Speaker 17: trying to send garrison to Canada, but I send them

3852
03:44:08,660 --> 03:44:10,859
Speaker 17: to France and then France sends them to Canada, right?

3853
03:44:11,660 --> 03:44:15,880
Speaker 17: People deported to third countries have faced torture, harassment, extortion,

3854
03:44:15,940 --> 03:44:20,439
Speaker 17: and worse. The Trump administration has managed to cajole nearly

3855
03:44:20,480 --> 03:44:24,879
Speaker 17: two dozen countries into accepting people this way. Previously, this

3856
03:44:24,920 --> 03:44:28,780
Speaker 17: practice was extremely rare. Obviously, rendition, which is not really

3857
03:44:28,800 --> 03:44:31,440
Speaker 17: an immigration procedure when it is carried out as rendition

3858
03:44:31,600 --> 03:44:34,940
Speaker 17: has happened before. There was also the practice of returning

3859
03:44:35,040 --> 03:44:38,180
Speaker 17: people to Mexico who had crossed the southern border. Biden

3860
03:44:38,200 --> 03:44:40,849
Speaker 17: did that. Trump won, did that, right? But those people

3861
03:44:40,890 --> 03:44:43,769
Speaker 17: weren't being removed when they had withholding of removal. They

3862
03:44:43,790 --> 03:44:48,390
Speaker 17: were being removed under Title 42, which is, again, legally distinct.

3863
03:44:49,250 --> 03:44:51,730
Speaker 17: In several cases, there has been an effort by the

3864
03:44:51,750 --> 03:44:56,080
Speaker 17: states involved to cast doubt about who is legally responsible

3865
03:44:56,120 --> 03:44:59,700
Speaker 17: for people removed this way. So in the United States case,

3866
03:44:59,940 --> 03:45:02,500
Speaker 17: it claimed that people moved to Secod. If you remember

3867
03:45:02,540 --> 03:45:06,620
Speaker 17: that scandal, I guess, travesty, the US claimed that they

3868
03:45:06,640 --> 03:45:09,380
Speaker 17: were the responsibility of the Salvadoran government. The US then

3869
03:45:09,420 --> 03:45:11,439
Speaker 17: went on to broker a deal with Venezuela in which

3870
03:45:11,500 --> 03:45:15,160
Speaker 17: it returned them to Venezuela. Panama has claimed that people

3871
03:45:15,220 --> 03:45:18,040
Speaker 17: who are non-Panamanian there were in the custody of the UN,

3872
03:45:18,540 --> 03:45:20,520
Speaker 17: but the UN said that they were in the responsibility

3873
03:45:20,550 --> 03:45:25,070
Speaker 17: of the Panamanian government. The government clearly uses this practice,

3874
03:45:25,110 --> 03:45:26,510
Speaker 17: I guess, as a punishment. We can see it in

3875
03:45:26,530 --> 03:45:31,090
Speaker 17: the case of Kilmer Abrego-Garcia, who was offered a chance

3876
03:45:31,129 --> 03:45:33,390
Speaker 17: to be deported to Costa Rica if he pled guilty

3877
03:45:33,450 --> 03:45:36,670
Speaker 17: and threatened with Uganda if he did not. And you

3878
03:45:36,730 --> 03:45:40,680
Speaker 17: hear this a lot from people, migrants who have signed

3879
03:45:40,700 --> 03:45:43,860
Speaker 17: a quote-unquote self-deportation paperwork, perhaps saying, oh, I didn't want

3880
03:45:43,879 --> 03:45:46,020
Speaker 17: to get sent. Generally, the way they wave this is

3881
03:45:46,100 --> 03:45:49,460
Speaker 17: we'll send you to Africa. Large portions of the United

3882
03:45:49,480 --> 03:45:51,640
Speaker 17: States population still believe that Africa is a country, not

3883
03:45:51,660 --> 03:45:54,830
Speaker 17: a continent. This is an ongoing issue, but for migrants

3884
03:45:54,850 --> 03:45:58,750
Speaker 17: who have never been anywhere in Africa, that is extremely scary, right?

3885
03:45:58,800 --> 03:46:01,880
Speaker 17: A continent where you know no one, where people's human

3886
03:46:01,920 --> 03:46:02,800
Speaker 17: rights are abused.

3887
03:46:02,900 --> 03:46:07,920
Speaker 16: Well, and honestly, as you noted, James, we're probably, for

3888
03:46:08,040 --> 03:46:10,800
Speaker 16: most people, your only knowledge of the continent is like

3889
03:46:10,879 --> 03:46:15,190
Speaker 16: war and disease. Yes, through this dark continent trope, right? Yes,

3890
03:46:15,430 --> 03:46:19,709
Speaker 16: people's understanding of Africa is extremely problematic, but it's understandable

3891
03:46:19,730 --> 03:46:22,440
Speaker 16: that people are very afraid. But that influences why this

3892
03:46:22,520 --> 03:46:23,680
Speaker 16: is such a scary thing.

3893
03:46:24,040 --> 03:46:24,860
Speaker 2: Yes, absolutely.

3894
03:46:25,360 --> 03:46:27,580
Speaker 17: So let's take the example of more than a dozen

3895
03:46:27,620 --> 03:46:30,790
Speaker 17: people who have been sent to Eswatini. They were held

3896
03:46:30,830 --> 03:46:34,070
Speaker 17: in a maximum security prison without meaningful access to counsel.

3897
03:46:34,490 --> 03:46:37,510
Speaker 17: For nine months, the government there prevented them from meeting

3898
03:46:37,570 --> 03:46:40,950
Speaker 17: a local attorney and and denied them unmonitored calls to

3899
03:46:40,990 --> 03:46:44,310
Speaker 17: attorneys in the United States. The government of Eswatini has

3900
03:46:44,430 --> 03:46:49,160
Speaker 17: repeatedly said that they want to participate in chain refoulement,

3901
03:46:49,620 --> 03:46:52,300
Speaker 17: saying the goal of the procedure was, quote, facilitating their

3902
03:46:52,340 --> 03:46:57,300
Speaker 17: eventual repatriation. This is happening all over the world, like

3903
03:46:57,420 --> 03:47:00,310
Speaker 17: right out in the open. It's a very clear attempt

3904
03:47:00,430 --> 03:47:05,190
Speaker 17: to evade the protections that these people have. Evidently, international

3905
03:47:05,230 --> 03:47:07,369
Speaker 17: law is not a real thing for powerful countries, and

3906
03:47:07,890 --> 03:47:11,310
Speaker 17: that's what we're seeing here. All of this comes as

3907
03:47:11,330 --> 03:47:16,209
Speaker 17: ISIS once again surging arrests. They were in San Diego.

3908
03:47:16,250 --> 03:47:19,400
Speaker 17: ISIS SRT were in San Diego today. There's been a

3909
03:47:19,450 --> 03:47:23,820
Speaker 17: sharp increase reported in Los Angeles. These call-ins are happening

3910
03:47:23,860 --> 03:47:25,640
Speaker 17: more and more in New York. I think we can

3911
03:47:25,660 --> 03:47:29,199
Speaker 17: probably expect to see them doing liberal cities before the midterms.

3912
03:47:29,480 --> 03:47:32,119
Speaker 2: They're all over Chicago right now, too. Yeah.

3913
03:47:32,160 --> 03:47:32,320
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3914
03:47:33,050 --> 03:47:35,629
Speaker 17: They're really going after it at this time. And I

3915
03:47:35,690 --> 03:47:38,680
Speaker 17: think that's because it's red meat to their base, right?

3916
03:47:38,720 --> 03:47:40,460
Speaker 17: They want to kind of own the libs, especially in

3917
03:47:40,500 --> 03:47:43,700
Speaker 17: New York, where Mamdani has had success, right?

3918
03:47:43,740 --> 03:47:44,560
Speaker 2: And they don't like that.

3919
03:47:45,440 --> 03:47:47,220
Speaker 17: It is also going to result in people who have

3920
03:47:47,420 --> 03:47:49,760
Speaker 17: every right to go to the polls and vote being

3921
03:47:49,830 --> 03:47:50,689
Speaker 17: afraid to do so.

3922
03:47:50,709 --> 03:47:51,570
Speaker 16: Yeah.

3923
03:47:52,270 --> 03:47:54,410
Speaker 2: And that is not a coincidence.

3924
03:47:55,010 --> 03:47:59,830
Speaker 17: This is all part of a coordinated strategy going into

3925
03:48:00,290 --> 03:48:00,629
Speaker 17: next month.

3926
03:48:01,060 --> 03:48:03,600
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's what we talked about a little bit last

3927
03:48:03,660 --> 03:48:08,119
Speaker 10: week with this new save verification system. And part of

3928
03:48:08,160 --> 03:48:12,140
Speaker 10: the system is so that people who are eligible to

3929
03:48:12,180 --> 03:48:14,670
Speaker 10: vote might be too scared to even register to vote

3930
03:48:14,780 --> 03:48:16,620
Speaker 10: if the system flags you as a non-citizen and then

3931
03:48:16,870 --> 03:48:18,910
Speaker 10: puts you into contact with ICE. And even if you

3932
03:48:19,090 --> 03:48:22,330
Speaker 10: are legally here, maybe you're living with someone who isn't.

3933
03:48:22,910 --> 03:48:26,130
Speaker 10: And it could just scare people out of exercising their

3934
03:48:26,150 --> 03:48:26,590
Speaker 10: right to vote.

3935
03:48:26,850 --> 03:48:29,709
Speaker 17: Yeah, maybe you just don't think it's worth all that stress, right?

3936
03:48:29,770 --> 03:48:32,490
Speaker 17: You You don't want those people around your neighborhood. All

3937
03:48:32,530 --> 03:48:35,170
Speaker 17: of those are very real concerns, especially if you feel

3938
03:48:35,190 --> 03:48:38,440
Speaker 17: like your vote doesn't matter or whatever.

3939
03:48:39,959 --> 03:48:41,460
Speaker 2: It's all part of voter suppression.

3940
03:48:42,080 --> 03:48:47,660
Speaker 10: It's a really advanced and insidious tactic of voter suppression. Obviously,

3941
03:48:47,860 --> 03:48:50,360
Speaker 10: the Trump administration wants as few people to vote in

3942
03:48:50,440 --> 03:48:51,699
Speaker 10: these midterms as possible.

3943
03:48:52,800 --> 03:48:54,220
Speaker 2: Certainly going forward.

3944
03:48:56,140 --> 03:48:59,120
Speaker 10: Speaking of voting, It could happen here as well as

3945
03:48:59,140 --> 03:49:01,850
Speaker 10: two other Cool Zone media shows, Behind the Bastards and

3946
03:49:01,870 --> 03:49:05,730
Speaker 10: Weird Little Guys, are nominated for a Signal Award, which

3947
03:49:05,810 --> 03:49:09,060
Speaker 10: is not related to the encrypted messaging app. As cool

3948
03:49:09,100 --> 03:49:09,860
Speaker 10: as that would be.

3949
03:49:10,500 --> 03:49:11,760
Speaker 2: As cool as that.

3950
03:49:11,460 --> 03:49:14,040
Speaker 16: Would be if they had a podcast award for some reason.

3951
03:49:14,860 --> 03:49:16,780
Speaker 2: As opposed to.

3952
03:49:16,480 --> 03:49:19,680
Speaker 16: An award for the people who have said the most

3953
03:49:19,720 --> 03:49:22,160
Speaker 16: things on Signal that they would not have wanted to say.

3954
03:49:22,060 --> 03:49:22,900
Speaker 3: On any other app.

3955
03:49:22,920 --> 03:49:25,500
Speaker 16: Which means I think we might also be in contention

3956
03:49:25,550 --> 03:49:30,070
Speaker 16: for a victory. Reward for most bonkers group chat would

3957
03:49:30,150 --> 03:49:30,710
Speaker 16: also be.

3958
03:49:30,870 --> 03:49:34,210
Speaker 10: Oh my god. If you would like to vote for

3959
03:49:34,250 --> 03:49:37,010
Speaker 10: us for the Signal Awards, voting is open until October 15th.

3960
03:49:37,290 --> 03:49:40,000
Speaker 10: This is good prep if you intend to vote for

3961
03:49:40,020 --> 03:49:40,660
Speaker 10: the midterms.

3962
03:49:40,700 --> 03:49:41,840
Speaker 2: I know voting is scary.

3963
03:49:42,570 --> 03:49:44,310
Speaker 10: Not everyone believes in it, but if you could at

3964
03:49:44,370 --> 03:49:47,000
Speaker 10: least vote in the Signal Awards, that would be appreciated.

3965
03:49:47,140 --> 03:49:51,950
Speaker 16: This is not electoralism, folks. This is not going to

3966
03:49:51,990 --> 03:49:54,150
Speaker 16: give us any power. It will give some of us

3967
03:49:54,230 --> 03:49:55,070
Speaker 16: small statues.

3968
03:49:55,250 --> 03:49:55,590
Speaker 2: I don't know.

3969
03:49:55,610 --> 03:49:59,210
Speaker 10: I think it is harm reduction to beat Prof G Market. Yeah,

3970
03:49:59,250 --> 03:50:02,710
Speaker 10: can I just say, one of these people repudents, fuck me. Yeah, yeah,

3971
03:50:02,770 --> 03:50:05,810
Speaker 10: we got to beat G Markets. Prof G Markets? The

3972
03:50:05,870 --> 03:50:06,490
Speaker 10: fuck is his name?

3973
03:50:06,510 --> 03:50:07,110
Speaker 4: Prof G Markets.

3974
03:50:07,250 --> 03:50:07,470
Speaker 11: My God.

3975
03:50:07,570 --> 03:50:09,190
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Prof G.

3976
03:50:09,320 --> 03:50:13,520
Speaker 17: It's an economist who talks every fucking day about capital markets.

3977
03:50:14,120 --> 03:50:17,300
Speaker 17: I cannot imagine what that does to the human soul.

3978
03:50:17,460 --> 03:50:17,919
Speaker 6: Nightmare.

3979
03:50:18,220 --> 03:50:20,240
Speaker 16: I mean, I don't, I guess not why, but yeah.

3980
03:50:21,270 --> 03:50:24,040
Speaker 10: We are polling at 41%. We are a few points ahead,

3981
03:50:24,160 --> 03:50:26,600
Speaker 10: but it's still fluctuating. So if you would like to

3982
03:50:26,640 --> 03:50:27,300
Speaker 10: be a big part.

3983
03:50:27,320 --> 03:50:30,140
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you're in line, stay in line. Stay in line.

3984
03:50:30,300 --> 03:50:32,160
Speaker 10: If you want to be a big part of helping

3985
03:50:32,220 --> 03:50:34,750
Speaker 10: beat profigy markets, follow the link.

3986
03:50:34,810 --> 03:50:37,290
Speaker 2: And some other shit there. And some others. Housing Wire

3987
03:50:37,330 --> 03:50:39,130
Speaker 2: Daily polling at 1%.

3988
03:50:39,130 --> 03:50:39,490
Speaker 16: LOL.

3989
03:50:39,870 --> 03:50:40,070
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3990
03:50:40,630 --> 03:50:40,870
Speaker 10: Owned.

3991
03:50:41,290 --> 03:50:45,470
Speaker 16: Look, you can't stop Flavio Bolsonaro from winning in Brazil,

3992
03:50:45,830 --> 03:50:48,679
Speaker 16: but we can stop him from winning a Signal Award.

3993
03:50:48,780 --> 03:50:51,760
Speaker 16: And of course, by that I mean... Prof G would

3994
03:50:51,920 --> 03:50:54,960
Speaker 16: clearly hand his Signal Award over to the Bolsonaros. We

3995
03:50:55,000 --> 03:50:57,260
Speaker 16: all know that. A vote for Prof G is a

3996
03:50:57,340 --> 03:50:59,980
Speaker 16: vote for Jair Bolsonaro to win the Signal Awards.

3997
03:51:00,460 --> 03:51:02,500
Speaker 17: When I discovered this was happening, I did go on

3998
03:51:02,520 --> 03:51:05,090
Speaker 17: the Prof G Market's YouTube and they were discussing what

3999
03:51:05,410 --> 03:51:08,050
Speaker 17: the Bolsonaro would mean for the market.

4000
03:51:08,070 --> 03:51:09,530
Speaker 2: Well, there you go. There you go.

4001
03:51:09,590 --> 03:51:11,950
Speaker 16: Let's not look any further into that, James. Let's not

4002
03:51:11,970 --> 03:51:13,070
Speaker 16: look any further into that.

4003
03:51:13,930 --> 03:51:16,540
Speaker 17: I have a high threshold for stress, but I wasn't

4004
03:51:16,600 --> 03:51:18,780
Speaker 17: able to watch that. I've seen too much.

4005
03:51:19,620 --> 03:51:20,840
Speaker 2: But what will the markets think?

4006
03:51:20,900 --> 03:51:23,560
Speaker 16: What will the markets think? They'll think vote for CoolZone.

4007
03:51:24,180 --> 03:51:24,460
Speaker 2: Yeah.

4008
03:51:24,740 --> 03:51:26,460
Speaker 10: If you would like to help us beat Prop G,

4009
03:51:26,980 --> 03:51:28,960
Speaker 10: follow the link in the show notes.

4010
03:51:29,060 --> 03:51:31,900
Speaker 16: Does G stand for Jair? No, because that's spelled with

4011
03:51:31,940 --> 03:51:32,340
Speaker 16: a J.

4012
03:51:32,360 --> 03:51:33,070
Speaker 2: But it might.

4013
03:51:33,280 --> 03:51:36,750
Speaker 16: Theoretically, it might, you know. Vote for us just in case.

4014
03:51:36,970 --> 03:51:37,250
Speaker 2: Yeah.

4015
03:51:37,610 --> 03:51:37,730
Speaker 10: Yeah.

4016
03:51:37,750 --> 03:51:40,710
Speaker 16: If you want to email us, it's CoolZoneTips at Proton.me.

4017
03:51:40,730 --> 03:51:43,350
Speaker 16: Unless you're a marketing person, then go fuck yourself.

4018
03:51:43,870 --> 03:51:45,550
Speaker 2: We reported the news.

4019
03:51:46,330 --> 03:51:47,130
Speaker 8: We reported the news.

4020
03:51:52,890 --> 03:51:56,010
Speaker 3: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4021
03:51:56,090 --> 03:51:57,930
Speaker 3: from now until the heat death of the universe.

4022
03:51:58,790 --> 03:52:01,230
Speaker 18: It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

4023
03:52:01,430 --> 03:52:04,430
Speaker 18: For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website,

4024
03:52:04,630 --> 03:52:09,060
Speaker 18: coolzonemedia.com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

4025
03:52:09,420 --> 03:52:12,220
Speaker 18: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find

4026
03:52:12,280 --> 03:52:15,200
Speaker 18: sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions.

4027
03:52:15,700 --> 03:52:16,380
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.