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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 3: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick.

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Speaker 3: And today we're back with part four of our series

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Speaker 3: on the Ninja. Now, if you haven't heard the previous

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Speaker 3: three episodes, you should probably go back and check those

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Speaker 3: out first, but for a brief refresher. In the previous parts,

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Speaker 3: we talked about the origins of the term ninja and

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Speaker 3: its functional equivalent shinobi nomono, meaning a person who practices sneaking, secrecy,

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Speaker 3: invisibility or in an alternate reading patience, or endurance. We

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Speaker 3: talked about the alleged historical origins of the shinobi nomono

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Speaker 3: as practitioners of espionage and undercover warfare in Singoku era Japan,

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Speaker 3: which covered parts of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries and

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Speaker 3: was characterized by frequent up risings in civil wars. But

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Speaker 3: we also discussed the complicated historical question of to what

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Speaker 3: extent the people who practiced spying, sabotage, and sneak attacks

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Speaker 3: during this period can actually be said to connect to

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Speaker 3: the modern literary archetype of the ninja. Which has evolved

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Speaker 3: over several centuries and is almost certainly composed in large

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Speaker 3: part of legendary development and invented tradition. We talked, especially

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Speaker 3: in the first part of this series, about how the

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Speaker 3: ninja entered international pop culture in the twentieth century and

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Speaker 3: the characteristics of the pop culture ninja and how those

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Speaker 3: don't really match up with much of even the historical,

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Speaker 3: legendary version of the ninja. We talked about some individual

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Speaker 3: shinobi warriors from legend and history, including stories of ninja

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Speaker 3: esque sorcerers who could ride on spectral toads, and in

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Speaker 3: the last episode, we talked about some of the fantastic

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Speaker 3: tools and techniques described in popular ninjitsu annuals that were

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Speaker 3: compiled and published beginning in the seventeenth century, including everything

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Speaker 3: from the use of gunpowder and pharmacology to the so

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Speaker 3: called water spider device that would I don't allow you

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Speaker 3: to do something in water questions remain that's right.

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Speaker 2: And so this is we're back here for the final installment,

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Speaker 2: Part four, and as is often the case with our series,

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Speaker 2: part four is kind of and the rest. So we're

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Speaker 2: gonna have examples of content that match up with everything

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Speaker 2: we just highlighted from the previous episodes, So like a

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Speaker 2: little bit more of everything we've been talking about, I

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Speaker 2: think getting into some I know some things that were

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Speaker 2: probably you know, pinging in your mind as you listen

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Speaker 2: to the first three, like when are they going to

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Speaker 2: talk about throwing stars?

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Speaker 3: That's right. One of the inanimate objects most closely associated

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Speaker 3: with the ninja in modern movies and storytelling is the

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Speaker 3: shuriken at the throwing star aka the ninja star.

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Speaker 2: This is, of course one of the big ninja weapons

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Speaker 2: of pop culture, and one of the things is just

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Speaker 2: instantly attractive about the ninja that you can't help but

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Speaker 2: want to throw a shuri can at somebody or at

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Speaker 2: the wall. Even when when my family when we were

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Speaker 2: in Japan, one of the hotels that we stayed at

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Speaker 2: in Tokyo had a ninja theme and when your families

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Speaker 2: were checking in, they would give the kids like pretend

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Speaker 2: suri can to throw at a target on the wall.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I was reading about how shurican ranges are like

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Speaker 3: a common stop on sort of like ninja tourist offerings.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so literally it basically means a blade in

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Speaker 2: the hand, and yeah, these are typically depicted in Japanese

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Speaker 2: ninja media as something you sling out rapid fire, like

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Speaker 2: kind of like you're dealing cards, throwing cards or something,

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Speaker 2: while a lot of Western ninja tails tend to present

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Speaker 2: them as these kind of deadly one shots. I think

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Speaker 2: we've all seen movie in which a ninja throws a

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Speaker 2: shuri can and it gets somebody right in the forehead

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Speaker 2: and somehow kills them dead.

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Speaker 3: Rob correct me if you have a different impression. But

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Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of ninja movies emphasize a

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Speaker 3: theme with the shura can that's almost like in fact,

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Speaker 3: you mention another Western movie that that borrows from a

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Speaker 3: Japanese origin, in The Magnificent Seven, there's that scene where

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Speaker 3: there's you know, James Coburn brings a knife to a

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Speaker 3: gunfight and he beats the gunfighter by throwing the knife

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Speaker 3: faster than the gunfighter can draw his gun. Of course

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Speaker 3: that movie is based on seven Samurai originally, but but

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Speaker 3: there is I think a similar thing going on with

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Speaker 3: the shura can in a lot of these movies. It's

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Speaker 3: like the Blade the bladed Star beats technology every time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it helps to have those rapid fire cuts too,

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Speaker 2: because of course the way you typically do a knife

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Speaker 2: throw or a sura can throw in cinema, is you

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Speaker 2: just like cut two or pan over to where the

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Speaker 2: fake sure kin, the fake blade is already stuck in

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Speaker 2: the person, so you know it's lightning fast. It's like bam,

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Speaker 2: there it is. It's like magically appeared in their forehead.

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Speaker 3: Now, I think we mentioned in a previous episode. If not,

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Speaker 3: I'll go ahead and mention now that one thing that

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Speaker 3: is quite surprising is that shuriken actually do not feature

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Speaker 3: in any of the classic ninjusu manuals that we were

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Speaker 3: talking about from beginning in the seventeenth century in the

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Speaker 3: last episode. Though that doesn't mean they did not exist

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Speaker 3: at all. There are some historical artifacts that can sort

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Speaker 3: of fit in this box. It's just that historically, until

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Speaker 3: I'll get to this in a minute, until basically the

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Speaker 3: twentieth century, they were not particularly associated with ninja or shinobi.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's interesting to sort of tease to the

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Speaker 2: history of like just the weapon itself. I was reading

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Speaker 2: about this in Heroko Yoda and matt Alt's Ninja Attack,

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Speaker 2: which again is an excellent little illustrated book that covers

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Speaker 2: all these highlights. But they point out that not all

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Speaker 2: of these various designs of the shurican that we do

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Speaker 2: have would have been thrown. Some of them were simply

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Speaker 2: small handheld blades. And that's interesting too, because in ninja media,

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Speaker 2: I can't think of an example of anyone doing anything

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Speaker 2: with a shurcan other than throw it. You know, I

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Speaker 2: don't think I've ever seen anybody like whittle with one,

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Speaker 2: or open a soda pop with one, or anything. You know.

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Speaker 2: They're just for throwing. And apparently, of the ones that

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Speaker 2: were thrown, the more likely scenario here is that they

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Speaker 2: would have been a close range nuisance or distraction weapon

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Speaker 2: as opposed to that stealthy one shot kill.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that very much squares with my understanding. So I

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Speaker 3: was reading about the origins of the association between shurikean

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Speaker 3: and ninja in a book that I've been referencing throughout

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Speaker 3: this series. It's a book called Ninja Unmasking the Myth

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Speaker 3: by a historian named Stephen Turnbull, which goes a lot

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Speaker 3: into the complicated questions the historicity of the ninja tropes

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Speaker 3: that exist today, and so in order to understand the

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Speaker 3: association that emerged between shurrikan and ninja. It's apparently important

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Speaker 3: to understand a particular Japanese martial artist and author who

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Speaker 3: lived in the twentieth century named Fuji Ta Seiko, who

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Speaker 3: was a practitioner and claimed to be a preserver of

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Speaker 3: the ninjitsu tradition of the Coca region of Japan. Fuji

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Speaker 3: To Seiko lived from eighteen ninety eight to nineteen sixty six,

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Speaker 3: and Fujiita's writings were influential in creating the image of

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Speaker 3: the ninja that emerged in the mid twentieth century after

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Speaker 3: the conclusion of World War Two. I'm not going to

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Speaker 3: completely cover his biography, but i will say that he

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Speaker 3: is a fascinating and somewhat controversial figure worth reading more about,

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Speaker 3: just to hit some of the top lines. In nineteen

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Speaker 3: thirty six, he published a book called Ninjutsu Hiroku, which

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Speaker 3: means something like secret Notes on Ninjutsu, which is allegedly

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Speaker 3: based on the secret Koca traditions that have been passed

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Speaker 3: down to his family through direct instruction without being published

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Speaker 3: for a general audience, and he claimed that he was

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Speaker 3: publishing this information about ninjutsu to help Japan win its

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Speaker 3: war against China. However, actually a lot of the information

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Speaker 3: that he includes in this book does come from other

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Speaker 3: pre existing ninjitsu manuals like the ones we talked about

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Speaker 3: in the last part of this series, like the Manson

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Speaker 3: Chukai or the bens In Chukai. So the Ninjitsu Hiroku

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Speaker 3: reframes a lot of information from these previous ninjasu manuals

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Speaker 3: of the Tokugawa period. But apparently it does things like

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Speaker 3: rationalize a lot of magical sounding claims. For example, techniques

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Speaker 3: that originally were presented as ways of transforming magically into

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Speaker 3: a rat are instead presented as making a noise like

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Speaker 3: a rat to confuse and distract guards, Or like the

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Speaker 3: idea that one could potentially turn invisible is rationalized as well.

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Speaker 3: You can walk in a certain way so that you

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Speaker 3: cannot be seen, thus causing the impression that you've become invisible.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 3: A lot of this book also concerns self glorifying claims

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Speaker 3: of practices of physical endurance and austerity. For example, he

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Speaker 3: claimed that, you know, as part of his practice, he

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Speaker 3: could like break glass bottles over his own head to

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Speaker 3: prove his toughness. He says he can do forty glass

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Speaker 3: bottles in a row.

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Speaker 2: Do not attempt that no idea.

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Speaker 3: I'm going to mention a few other things. Don't do

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Speaker 3: any of this, please, This is not a good training regime,

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Speaker 3: even if you want to be a ninja. He says,

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Speaker 3: the shanobi must be able to withstand torture without giving

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Speaker 3: up information. So he says, I have stabbed myself with

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Speaker 3: hundreds of needles. Here's a picture of me with all

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Speaker 3: the needles in me, And I have eaten roof tiles,

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Speaker 3: glass bricks, and rat poison. Again, questionable whether he actually

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Speaker 3: did some of that. I think people did claim that

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Speaker 3: they saw him eating glass. I don't know about the poison,

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Speaker 3: but don't do any of this. He also apparently claimed

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Speaker 3: that he knew dog language and thus could like communicate

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Speaker 3: with dogs to like call them for help if needed,

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Speaker 3: or make maybe make them fight each other.

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Speaker 2: Well aside from them making them fight each other. Please

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Speaker 2: feel free to experiment with this one.

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Speaker 3: You can talk to dogs, yes, better than eating poison

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Speaker 3: and glass.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: But one of Fujiita Seiko's most enduring contributions to the

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Speaker 3: ninja mythology of today is his attachment of the shuriken

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Speaker 3: in its current form to the ninja legend. So I'm

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Speaker 3: going to try to get into that. Stephen Turnbull in

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Speaker 3: his book actually as a whole chapter just on where

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Speaker 3: the shurican comes from and how it can next to ninjitsu.

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Speaker 3: So there are references to the word shuriken in seventeenth

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Speaker 3: century ninjitsu manuals, but they are apparently referring to completely

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Speaker 3: different objects than we have in mind. We picture the

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Speaker 3: ninja star that's got you know, it's a star shaped,

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Speaker 3: vaguely circular object made of metal that has points all

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Speaker 3: around so you can throw it in the spinning fashion

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Speaker 3: and wherever it hits somebody, it's going to stab into them.

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Speaker 2: That's right, And again we've seen this in movies time

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Speaker 2: and time again. I actually looked back at the James

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Speaker 2: Bond film that we talked about being pivotal in the

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Speaker 2: history of introducing the idea of the ninja to international audience.

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Speaker 2: You only live twice, and look, I didn't watch the

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Speaker 2: film in full, but I did find some YouTube clips

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Speaker 2: of it official on the James Bond YouTube page. Okay,

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Speaker 2: and there is a scene laid in the film where

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Speaker 2: someone I think it's Bond himself, throws a shuriken at

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Speaker 2: Blofeld and Blowfelt has a pistol, hits it in the hand,

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Speaker 2: knocks a pistol out of his hand.

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Speaker 3: This is actually a common thing in the movies where

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Speaker 3: the ninja will use it to disarm an opponent who

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Speaker 3: like has them at a loss.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess again, issues of accuracy and power aside.

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Speaker 2: You know, I guess that's more realistic than the instant kill.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm going to get to the likely use of

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Speaker 3: it in a second, to the extent it's even being

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Speaker 3: recommended to a ninja. But so, okay, what is this

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Speaker 3: If the shuracan referenced in the seventeenth century in ninjutsu

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Speaker 3: manuals is not what we have in mind, what is it? Well,

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Speaker 3: one of the earliest references, according to Turnbull, is in

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Speaker 3: a is in a text called the Gunpo Goshu of

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Speaker 3: sixteen fifty three, and in this case, the shuriken is

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Speaker 3: said to be quote a torch made from split wood

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Speaker 3: and fitted into a metal base with a spike. So

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Speaker 3: that's interesting a torch. But the idea here is you're

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Speaker 3: century up on a castle wall and you know it's nighttime,

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Speaker 3: You're sure surrounded by darkness, and you need to see

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Speaker 3: what's happening down on the ground below at the base

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Speaker 3: of the castle wall. So you throw down this shuriken.

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Speaker 3: This object is a sort of combination torch lawn dart,

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Speaker 3: and the metal spike sticks into the soil and the

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Speaker 3: torch illuminates the ground around the base of the wall.

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Speaker 2: All right, seems reasonable, seems practical.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a totally logical sounding tool. And it's interesting

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Speaker 3: because again this sort of crosses that boundary that keeps

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Speaker 3: getting blurred in the history of ninja lore between weapons

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Speaker 3: intended for direct violence and things that are just tools

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Speaker 3: used to gather information. However, when it comes to direct references,

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Speaker 3: there is another early reference to shurikean that is also dissimilar,

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Speaker 3: dissimilar to what's the word there, dissimilar to or dissimilar from.

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Speaker 3: It's not the same as a ninja star. This is

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Speaker 3: the bow shurickan mentioned in some seventeenth century texts, which

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Speaker 3: is a bar or rod shaped object that could be

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Speaker 3: thrown by hand. So essentially this is just a large

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Speaker 3: steel dart.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, these these are really neat and of course when

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Speaker 2: you start looking up weapons of the sort ninja weapons

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Speaker 2: seeing you find there's a lot of drift, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of like modernization and whether the weapon actually existed

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Speaker 2: historically or not, somebody has made it now and you can,

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Speaker 2: you know, again, buy it at the mall or something.

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Speaker 2: But these are pretty cool, and these are one of

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Speaker 2: the I feel like just to dip back into Dungeons

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Speaker 2: and Dragons for a second. Anytime darts are are are

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Speaker 2: mentioned or darts come up as a possible weapon in

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Speaker 2: Dungeons and Dragons, I feel like most people's mind, you know,

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Speaker 2: given the often sort of like westernized fantasy setting of

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Speaker 2: Dungeons and Dragons, you often think of like a dart

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Speaker 2: from a pool hall, right, yeah, dart board, just small,

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Speaker 2: you know, basically harmless weapon. And I would always want

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Speaker 2: to advise me, no, no, look up some some bow shuriken

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Speaker 2: and imagine that for your character. Instead it's I'm not

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Speaker 2: going to do a lot of damage in the game,

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Speaker 2: but it looks cooler.

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Speaker 3: Yes, But coming back to the idea of not necessarily

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Speaker 3: needing to do a lot of damage, that actually connects

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Speaker 3: to where we get the first references too, star shaped

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Speaker 3: shurickan in an actual ninjutsu text, and that's in the

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Speaker 3: twentieth century. So here we're coming back to Fujita Seiko

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Speaker 3: in Ninjitsuhiroku. Again this is from the year nineteen thirty six.

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Speaker 3: He has a passage about shurikean in his text, and

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Speaker 3: so I'm gonna hear read from Turnbull's featured translation. So

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Speaker 3: the author here writes, if you have to defend yourself

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Speaker 3: against a sudden attack by an enemy, put some distance

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Speaker 3: between you to ensure your safety. In this case, use

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Speaker 3: the small weapon called a tobi dogu, which means throwing weapon,

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Speaker 3: known to the author as shurikean. Samurai normally despised these

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Speaker 3: and other throwing weapons, but they are most effective if

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Speaker 3: used skillfully. The shuri caan can do great damage if

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Speaker 3: it hits someone's eye. So even in this take from

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Speaker 3: the nineteen thirties, the shur can is not a primary weapon,

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Speaker 3: but the idea seems to me to be more like

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Speaker 3: throwing sand in somebody's eyes. It's like a trick you

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Speaker 3: can use to buy time or advantage if you're caught

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Speaker 3: off guard or being chased.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and in this scenario, especially keeping the samurai from

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Speaker 2: closing the distance between themselves and you, because that's life

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Speaker 2: and death at that point. If you can, if you

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Speaker 2: can just keep the distance between yourself and the samurai,

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Speaker 2: then maybe you've got a chance to get away.

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Speaker 3: Right, It's the idea is throwing something to keep the

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Speaker 3: samurai out of sword range.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, this reminds me a little bit. We did, you know,

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Speaker 2: a past episode of Stuff to Blow your Mind. We

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Speaker 2: did a series talking about like throwing animals, throwing things,

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Speaker 2: and then we got for one episode into an overview

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Speaker 2: of like human history with thrown weapon objects. And you know,

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Speaker 2: they range from from well I would say they range

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Speaker 2: from rock to more complex weapons. But I remember even

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Speaker 2: in talking about throwing rocks and stones as weapons, you know,

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Speaker 2: there's a lot more to it. You know, there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of selection involved in picking up the exact correct object.

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Speaker 2: And this is a case where we get to that

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Speaker 2: next level of Okay, what have we crafted the items

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Speaker 2: that we wish to throw so that they could be

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Speaker 2: used more optimally?

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Speaker 3: Describing what devices to throw for this purpose, Fujiita advises,

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Speaker 3: for one thing, improvised hand thrown weapons such as knives

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Speaker 3: or hairpins. So it's like, if you know, throw whatever

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Speaker 3: you can get your hands on, but if you're going

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Speaker 3: to have a dedicated weapon to throw. He also illustrates

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Speaker 3: dedicated shurrican designs, and one of the illustrations is a

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Speaker 3: classic bow shuriken, a large steel dart. But he also

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Speaker 3: includes pointed metal stars, and so here we get our

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Speaker 3: first illustration of throwing stars in a ninjutsu text. So

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Speaker 3: one of the things he illustrates is cross shaped it

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Speaker 3: has four points, and another one is shown with eight points.

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Speaker 3: This is in nineteen thirty six, the first ninja text

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Speaker 3: showing the star shaped shuriken. However, it's clear that Fujita

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Speaker 3: Seko did not invent this device from his imagination, because

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Speaker 3: even though earlier ninjitsu texts don't include them, we do

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Speaker 3: have evidence from earlier periods of vaguely star shaped blades

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Speaker 3: or cross shaped blades that did exist and could possibly

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Speaker 3: be thrown. So instead of looking for them in the

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00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,159
Speaker 3: nunjitsu manuals, you can find them in the jiu jitsu

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Speaker 3: arsenals of the Tokugawa period, particularly associated with a martial

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Speaker 3: arts tradition called the Sego Reu. One of the documents

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Speaker 3: allegedly associated with this school of martial arts includes an

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Speaker 3: illustration of a weapon that is quite similar that is

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Speaker 3: described like two knife blades fastened in the middle with

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Speaker 3: a hinge. So the way I'm picturing this finder stand

324
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Speaker 3: it right, is it's like a pair of scissors, but

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Speaker 3: instead of you know, one side of each blade being handles,

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Speaker 3: it's just blades on every point. Now, for several reasons,

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Speaker 3: Turnbull thinks that Fuji ta Seko was probably not familiar

328
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Speaker 3: with this exact document that I just mentioned, and probably

329
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Speaker 3: was getting his knowledge of the star shaped throwing weapon

330
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Speaker 3: just from seeing these artifacts around. And there is other

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Speaker 3: evidence from history of people like having versions of these artifacts,

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Speaker 3: even going back to the Tokugawa period, but they just

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Speaker 3: traditionally it doesn't seem like they were super common, and

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Speaker 3: they weren't particularly they weren't associated as far as anybody knows,

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Speaker 3: with nunjitsu until the twentieth century, and now that's all

336
00:19:45,119 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 3: they're associated with.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we probably have to sort of try

338
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Speaker 2: and imagine that most likely more historically accurate vision of

339
00:19:54,080 --> 00:20:02,040
Speaker 2: shnobi operatives as being plaine clothes SBNA operatives, who, you know,

340
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,440
Speaker 2: if you're going to carry items on you, like, are

341
00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 2: you going to really commit to having these some sort

342
00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:09,879
Speaker 2: of a throwing star, sure, a can on your person?

343
00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,359
Speaker 2: Something that again is I think going to be at

344
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:15,199
Speaker 2: least in the modern understanding of it is going to

345
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:19,399
Speaker 2: be more obviously a weapon and therefore subject to you know,

346
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 2: I mean, being judged in your illegal weapon or also

347
00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,800
Speaker 2: just being suspect in nature that you have it as

348
00:20:26,840 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 2: a And again, think about when you would supposedly use it,

349
00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,120
Speaker 2: like when the samurai are coming after you, or when

350
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Speaker 2: guards are coming after you, like really in the worst

351
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,399
Speaker 2: case scenarios, and that might be a better place to

352
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Speaker 2: maybe depend on just throwing say, you know, found objects

353
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Speaker 2: like a bottle or some other item in your immediate vicinity,

354
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Speaker 2: as opposed to having some special specialty device on your

355
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Speaker 2: person instead.

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Speaker 3: There's one detail from Turnbull's chapter that is so interesting

357
00:20:56,160 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 3: I had to bring it up. It's about the design

358
00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 3: that many people have probably seen of these basically swastika

359
00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,119
Speaker 3: shaped a throwing star that occurs in a lot of media.

360
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 3: This is a very familiar design for movies and stuff,

361
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 3: and apparently a lot of modern ninja books have featured

362
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,080
Speaker 3: this design as if it were a traditional Shurican design,

363
00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:21,720
Speaker 3: but it is not, and in fact, there is an

364
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 3: anecdote from this chapter about how an actor who worked

365
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 3: on a nineteen sixties TV series in Japan called on Mitsukinschi,

366
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,000
Speaker 3: which had a throwing star of this design, described that

367
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:41,359
Speaker 3: really this design was created for the show because the

368
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 3: straight pointed throwing stars were deemed too dangerous on set,

369
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 3: so this was essentially a safety innovation that was later

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Speaker 3: misinterpreted as a real design of throwing stars as weapons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's crazy, like basically a safety shit shur can.

372
00:21:58,760 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 2: That's great. Yeah, I have another example of hurrocun inspired

373
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Speaker 2: fictional weaponry, and this one I thought was interesting because

374
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 2: it kind of stands, at least to my eyes, as

375
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,720
Speaker 2: kind of like the ultimate in sci fi and fantasy

376
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,399
Speaker 2: transformation of the ninja myth. So in the Warhammer forty

377
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:24,359
Speaker 2: thousand universe, like a far future, you know, grim Dark scenario,

378
00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 2: you have these. They have this species known as the

379
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: l Dar, and they're kind of like a sci fi

380
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: take on the Elves. I mean, that's exactly what they are.

381
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 2: And they use pistols and rifles that use shurrocans as ammunition.

382
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,240
Speaker 2: So these are said to be monomolecular cutting edge weapons

383
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,119
Speaker 2: fired in bursts from these guns, and like they're so

384
00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:51,080
Speaker 2: sharp and they hit so with such velocity that they

385
00:22:51,160 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 2: just shred whatever they hit be it a mechanical foe

386
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,840
Speaker 2: or an organic foe, and again pretty far removed from

387
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 2: anything even remotely realistic we're talking about here, But again

388
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:03,959
Speaker 2: I thought it was interesting. It's kind of like the

389
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:07,280
Speaker 2: extreme transformation of the shuriken in sci fi and fantasy.

390
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:11,159
Speaker 2: I also, I didn't remember this at all, because I

391
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of memories regarding two thousand and

392
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,919
Speaker 2: four as Alien versus Predator, but you might remember that

393
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 2: in other Predator movies he has this disc that he

394
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: throws that cuts people in half. And in this film

395
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: they decided they were like, that looks too much like

396
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,679
Speaker 2: a frisbee. Let's give the Predator a shur aken, And

397
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 2: so he has this thing that it was least at

398
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: least described as a shura can. I included an image

399
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: here for you, Joe. It's it's really way too large.

400
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: It reminds me more of the weaponing krall the.

401
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 3: The glave, yeah, which also is a word that means

402
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 3: something else elsewhere. But yeah, that's very confusing. It looks

403
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:52,439
Speaker 3: almost exactly like the krawl thing. It's like kind of

404
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 3: almost like starfish shaped in a way, with these wispy

405
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,359
Speaker 3: curving blades coming out. It looks too delicate, you know,

406
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 3: it looks like they would break off.

407
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, So I don't know. I don't remember what

408
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:07,360
Speaker 2: this thing did in action. I guess it just cut

409
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 2: through stuff. But anyway, I wanted to to mention.

410
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,320
Speaker 3: That, based on my memory, probably doesn't do much because

411
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 3: I remember the Predator is just getting like beat up

412
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 3: in that movie. The movie is very like oh yeah, singles,

413
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,280
Speaker 3: you know, more full takedown and Predator. It's kind of surprising.

414
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 2: H Well, I think it should. I think it should.

415
00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, it's a fair hunt.

416
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know. I like to say I don't

417
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 2: remember that film all that well, but I did see it.

418
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 2: I might have seen in the theater, all right. Well, anyway,

419
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 2: coming back to the Shanobi, the pop culture Ninja and

420
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: the shur Can again, it's like you gotta if you

421
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: try and think, you know, realistically about any scenario in

422
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: which you have to bring a certain amount of tools.

423
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,880
Speaker 2: You have your sort of desert island list of tools

424
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:10,120
Speaker 2: to bring. Would throwing stars make the list? Again? Items

425
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: that might only be used when you were about to

426
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,639
Speaker 2: kill a samurai, And your main defense is like, what

427
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:20,080
Speaker 2: have I made them angry? So I think there's reason

428
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 2: to doubt that. And it's interesting too when you look

429
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,359
Speaker 2: at some of these ninjitsu manuals, again with proper caveats

430
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: about where they factor into the transformation from historical accuracy

431
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 2: into myth and fiction. There are sometimes lists of tools,

432
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 2: and in fact, there's a sixteen eighty one text, the Shoninki,

433
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 2: a Record of Proper Ninjutsu, that includes six tools that

434
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,320
Speaker 2: apparently every ninja had to have, and throwing stars did

435
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:51,640
Speaker 2: not make the list. Instead, you have and I think

436
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 2: this is actually kind of a telling list, like this

437
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: is a list that I mean, it certainly can apply

438
00:25:56,680 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 2: to any pop cultural view vision of the ninja that

439
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 2: you have, but it also makes a lot of sense

440
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: if you're just imagining some sort of espionage operative that's

441
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 2: maybe doing like some extra sneaky stuff, because the list includes,

442
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,480
Speaker 2: first of all, kagi nawa, a grappling hook, and rope.

443
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 2: All right, makes sense. You need to get over a wall,

444
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 2: grappling hook and some rope is a way to do it.

445
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 3: Mm hmm.

446
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,120
Speaker 2: Then you've got this one, this one. I was surprised

447
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: by kasa a conical straw hat, like a wide brim

448
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 2: straw hat. This would have been widely used by plenty

449
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 2: of people who are not involved in shanoby operations. But

450
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 2: that's part of a part of it, right. It's like

451
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 2: not conspicuous, and you could apparently hide tools inside it.

452
00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: Like it's large enough you could, you know, maybe secret

453
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 2: some items up there under the brim.

454
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 3: That makes sense to me.

455
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: And then here's a good one, chalk in order to

456
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: leave erasable secret messages for other operatives.

457
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 3: Ah yeah, that's interesting because when you think about some

458
00:26:57,400 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 3: of these other Ninjasu manuals we were talking about, like

459
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: the mens in Chukai places a big emphasis on the

460
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: the operative must survive in order to deliver information. So

461
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: it's like propagandizing the reader against the idea of you know,

462
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 3: going out to die in honorable death while doing the mission.

463
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 3: It's like, no, you must live in order to deliver

464
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 3: the information. But if you can deliver information in some

465
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 3: other way, like by writing a message somewhere, you know,

466
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: down somewhere for someone else to read, then I guess

467
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 3: that takes some of the pressure off.

468
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so it makes sense. And also, like chalk

469
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 2: generally not considered sus if you're caught with chalk, it's

470
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: not you're not going to be instantly sent to your execution.

471
00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 2: I'm assumed, all right. Some of the others a tinder box,

472
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 2: you know, just for a little fire, a towel, bring

473
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: a towel with you. You know, it's there are a

474
00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: lot of uses for the towel is very versatile. And

475
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: then there's also this category kusuri, and this would have

476
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: been various chemical compounds for different purposes. And this would

477
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 2: include things like poison, but also basically like first aid

478
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 2: as well as bug repellent. So I feel like this

479
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 2: is a pretty solid list because, if nothing else, it

480
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:12,240
Speaker 2: speaks to some of the practical aspects of imagine Shnobi activities.

481
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 2: You might need some bugspray, you might need to bring

482
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: a light, you might need to bring a towel.

483
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, towel's just always a good idea.

484
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 2: Yeah. In the book Ninja Attack Yoda and All highlights

485
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: some other alleged Ninja weapons, and they're kind of a

486
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: mix of things that maybe feel a little more fantasy

487
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 2: based and others that just sound very standard. Like one

488
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 2: is a kunai, a standard field knife. I think we

489
00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: mentioned this in passing in the last one when we're

490
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 2: talking about the the idea that ninja's had a specialized

491
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 2: ninja would have a specialized sword, and we brought up that, well,

492
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: why would you have this illegal weapon on you that

493
00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 2: takes up a fair amount of room that also might

494
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:54,520
Speaker 2: not serve your mission all that well, when you could

495
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: just bring like a standard field knife, something that would

496
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: not necessarily be considered a straight up weapon and would

497
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: have various practical uses. There's another one, goshiki may, which

498
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 2: would have been it's supposed to have been dyed rice

499
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: grains that you could leave, you could leave behind you

500
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: as a as a coated trail. Again, I'm not so

501
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: sure about that when that one sounds a little more exciting,

502
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,040
Speaker 2: like maybe a little too exciting to be an actual,

503
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 2: you know, artifact of spycraft. Now, gandhal a bucket based

504
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,600
Speaker 2: focused lantern that does sound useful for sneaking around, you know,

505
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,520
Speaker 2: basically like a you know something, so you're not lighting

506
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: up in the whole room, you're not lighting yourself up,

507
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: but you can have a very focused light for sneaking around,

508
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: maybe looking at documents.

509
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,480
Speaker 3: Oh, I see, so it's sort of a beam light.

510
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 2: Yeah. Another one is a michi hakari. This would have

511
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,680
Speaker 2: been like a measuring stick. Again. You know, sometimes espionage

512
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: is boring. It's just about how how big are things?

513
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: So you might need to measure things when you're when

514
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: you're when you're out and about Uh.

515
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 3: This is not boring at all. This is a major

516
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 3: part of sp iage activities. In these old warfare manuals.

517
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 3: It's about like giving giving dimensions and topography. It's like,

518
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:09,480
Speaker 3: go somewhere and tell me what it's like. Make a map.

519
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, they mentioned shakkomi, and this would have been like

520
00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 2: various concealed weapons, including cane swords, blowguns, that sort of thing. Again,

521
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 2: certainly this would make sense, especially if you're engaging in

522
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:28,880
Speaker 2: some sort of potential assassination scenario, but it also of

523
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,320
Speaker 2: course leans I think heavily into the myth of espionage.

524
00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: I mean, who doesn't love a good secret weapon, some

525
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:36,240
Speaker 2: sort of a James Bond device.

526
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 3: Right.

527
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 2: Then there's a shakoro. This would have been like a

528
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,720
Speaker 2: serrated hand tool for sawing, again, like a basic tool

529
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 2: that might come in handy for certain practices. And then

530
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: there's a casou gai. This would have been These would

531
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:53,840
Speaker 2: have been climbing aids, like specialized like iron climbing aids

532
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 2: for foot and hand holds. It could be inserted into

533
00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 2: the cracks of a wall. The examples that are included

534
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 2: in the book are pretty neat looking. I'm not sure

535
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: how historically accurate this would be, again, because we talked

536
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 2: about the importance of a ladder, uh and certainly, you know,

537
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,239
Speaker 2: we talked about you know, grappling hooks. So I don't know,

538
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 2: I'm not sure if this, uh, if this is something

539
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 2: that would have been regularly done, because the ladder is

540
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 2: also included in the in the book here, there's also

541
00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 2: uh subo kiri, like a handheld drilling tool from like

542
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: making a like holes in a wall for like a

543
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 2: peep pole. Yeah, peep pole, So that sounds reasonable. They

544
00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: mentioned they mentioned that the fabulous floating shoes that we

545
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 2: talked about last time, but they also mentioned something called mizugaki,

546
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 2: which would have been would have been apparently a type

547
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: of footwear that was useful in muddy areas. Okay, Yeah,

548
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: And and I guess this is reasonable, right, If you're

549
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:55,520
Speaker 2: like potentially sneaking out of of of of a building

550
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: or an area, or dealing any any fashion with a moat,

551
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: it might make sense to have specialized footwear.

552
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 3: Well, right, as we talked about in the last episode,

553
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 3: the idea of the mizugumo, the water walking shoes, the

554
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 3: water spider shoes almost certainly would not work as generally

555
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 3: interpreted in twentieth century sources, where like they allow you

556
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 3: to walk across the top of the water. So if

557
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 3: such a device were actually used, it was probably more

558
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,360
Speaker 3: like an inner tube type thing that you would sit

559
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 3: in and float across the water in.

560
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, kind of like a makeshift raft, which was

561
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 2: actually there's another item like this included in the book,

562
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,640
Speaker 2: the kami Gatta, which would apparently have been and I

563
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: don't have a clear vision of what this would look like,

564
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: but a makeshift raft using a bamboo frame in empty

565
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 2: clay jars. So, you know, perhaps a scenario where it's like, okay,

566
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: I got to build a boat tonight in order to

567
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,239
Speaker 2: make it across this river or this moat or what

568
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,960
Speaker 2: have you. What could you use to make it? How

569
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: you could you mcguiver up a boat.

570
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 3: That's good knowledge to have.

571
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: Now, there are various other ninja weapons that we could

572
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: potentially talk about. I think the common thread, though, is

573
00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: going to be how realistic is this how much historical

574
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 2: evidence is there for this and how cool does it look?

575
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:20,320
Speaker 2: You know, like you see things like Techo Kagi and

576
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: Nico Ta. These would have been two different versions of

577
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: like giving your ninja's claws, so the former being like

578
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: a wolverine claw that you wear as a gauntlet. I

579
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 2: guess also you could this is like basically what Shreder

580
00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 2: has in teenage Man Ninja turtles. And then the necko

581
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 2: t would would have been something that goes over your fingertips,

582
00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: and these would have been like poisoned or some sort

583
00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: of a nuisance weapon for like scratching somebody.

584
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 3: Over the fingertips. Yikes.

585
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so like you with the.

586
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 3: Open hand swinging at the Yeah.

587
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 2: Well you're not as big as Freddy Krueger or anything.

588
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 2: I think I did an artifact episode a while back

589
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: talking about like some of the physics of strapping blades

590
00:34:00,880 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: to your fingers, Like that's a Freddy Krueger glove would

591
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:05,760
Speaker 2: be a great way to break all your fingers if

592
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: you can actually use that as a weapon and you

593
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: are not a supernatural entity of some sort, yes, but

594
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: if it's wrist mounted, okay, you know potentially that could work.

595
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 2: But then again you get into that question, why would

596
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 2: it work more than a standard weapon, Why would it

597
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,400
Speaker 2: be a better choice compared to a knife or a

598
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,400
Speaker 2: sword or what have you.

599
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 3: As with a lot of these things we're describing, you

600
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 3: can see how they might have more appeal as a

601
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 3: meme than actual functional utility, Like they could be successful

602
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,360
Speaker 3: in texts like these because they're interesting ideas.

603
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, Another thing that comes up is like, is in

604
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 2: which cases do we see some sort of an alleged

605
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 2: ninja weapon that might have its roots in sort of

606
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,520
Speaker 2: a repurposing of other items, Like for instance, there are

607
00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 2: various forms of teko or techo and these would have

608
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: been I've seen it written that these would have been

609
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: like a basically a weaponized iron stirrup that is turned

610
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 2: into something kind of like brass knuckles, you know, And

611
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: I think like brass knuckles are a great example of

612
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:11,000
Speaker 2: something where you can see various knucks and other weapons

613
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 2: that can be very specialized and ornate, but various other

614
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 2: things could also work, you know, like a roll of

615
00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 2: quarters or you know, some other just like a simple

616
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 2: band of iron that goes around your knuckles, that sort

617
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: of thing. And so there's a long list of alleged

618
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 2: ninja weapons. They include miniaturized firearms, sharpened hair ornaments, and chopsticks,

619
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: particularly for female shanobi. And you know, I think part

620
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: of that is just like the idea of like, oh,

621
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: these the hair ornaments look very sharp, they look like

622
00:35:42,080 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: they could be a weapon. What if they were a weapon,

623
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: And therefore the myth building takes place. There are at

624
00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: least a couple of chain based weapons, the manriki gusari.

625
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: This is like a length of chain with a weight

626
00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 2: on either end, and I think the basic idea here

627
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,439
Speaker 2: is like, the samurai are coming to kill you, What again,

628
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 2: what can you throw at them to potentially buy yourself

629
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 2: a little time and or wrap around their weapons. There's

630
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: also one the kusari gama, which would have been much

631
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,279
Speaker 2: the same idea, but with a blade or sickle on

632
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,960
Speaker 2: one end of the chain. This would ideal. It Yeah,

633
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 2: be a situation where someone's coming at you with a weapon,

634
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 2: maybe you could use the chain to like wrap up

635
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: their weapon and so forth. So again, all the standard

636
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: caveats apply to considering the historical accuracy of these weapon descriptions,

637
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:35,240
Speaker 2: but I think we if we scrape the ninja mystique

638
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: off of each of them, while still acknowledging like the

639
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 2: use of some form of martial art. We're dealing with

640
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: sneaky weapons that have as much, if not more in

641
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: common with typical criminal implements like small knives, small clubs,

642
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 2: concealable firearms, maybe even concealed swords and cane swords and

643
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 2: all you know, hidden blades, hidden flails and so forth.

644
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: But again, I think you end up having pass that

645
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,839
Speaker 2: question like would this actually be practical? Can you see

646
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:07,240
Speaker 2: somebody using this in a very serious life and death,

647
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: you know, very risky scenario where the goal might not

648
00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 2: be some sort of like crazy cinematic ninja scenario, but

649
00:37:16,760 --> 00:37:20,560
Speaker 2: something more like getting the measurements of a guard house,

650
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 2: or you know, looking at some documents, overhearing something that

651
00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: you're not supposed to hear, and so forth. Now, there

652
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 2: are various techniques that ninja techniques that are brought up

653
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:33,880
Speaker 2: in the book by Yoda and Alt, and one that

654
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 2: I was particularly amused by is the idea that you

655
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: could as a ninja, as a shanobi operative out in

656
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: the field, you need to tell what time it is

657
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: without any other information to go on. You could look

658
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: into a cat size and therefore tell what time it is?

659
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,880
Speaker 3: Oh interesting, now is this telling time in the nighttime

660
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:54,800
Speaker 3: or in the daytime.

661
00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 2: I have a lot of questions about how practical this

662
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 2: would be. I think this is definitely one of those

663
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 2: ideas that sounds more intriguing than it actually you know,

664
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,759
Speaker 2: and then then it is useful. I think maybe it

665
00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,759
Speaker 2: has something to do with the idea quite understandably that

666
00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,320
Speaker 2: we feel a kinship between the ninja and the cat.

667
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 2: We like the idea too of a ninja stopping and maybe,

668
00:38:17,520 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 2: you know, talking with the cat like you're the household

669
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 2: cat doesn't care he or she is ready to sell

670
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,319
Speaker 2: you out to the shnobi at a moment's notice. They're

671
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 2: they're happy to conspire.

672
00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 3: Cast speak with animals.

673
00:38:29,880 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, But the basic idea is that, okay, the

674
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 2: shape of the pupil in the cat's eye is going

675
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 2: to change throughout the day, and you could potentially match

676
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: it up with specific times. The trick, the challenge that

677
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 2: Yoda and All point out is that, of course you

678
00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 2: would have to get be able to get close enough

679
00:38:47,480 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 2: to the cat to do this, presumably a stranger's cat

680
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 2: to make this reading, which is betting a lot on

681
00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 2: random cat personalities. Because there are cats that I've seen

682
00:38:57,960 --> 00:38:59,840
Speaker 2: plenty of times and I've never gotten close enough to

683
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 2: at their pupils. But then you'll just encounter like a

684
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 2: cat out on a walk, and the cat will come

685
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,760
Speaker 2: straight up and is like ready to share that information

686
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:09,120
Speaker 2: with you.

687
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 3: This is why you rub your face with sardines, you

688
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 3: get the cat in there.

689
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: So I looked into this a little bit more. I

690
00:39:18,719 --> 00:39:22,040
Speaker 2: couldn't find much concrete and about this, because, of course,

691
00:39:22,040 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 2: the other question is like, what kind of specific scenario

692
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 2: is this where there is no other information to go

693
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 2: on other than a cat's eye. You know, I feel

694
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: like you'd have a there would be better ways to

695
00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: reasonably estimate what time it is.

696
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 3: And hey, you know, it's not impossible that someone could

697
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 3: find clever ways of getting surprisingly accurate information from the

698
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 3: natural world. I often think back to that series of

699
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:52,319
Speaker 3: episodes we did about Pacific islander navigation techniques that you know,

700
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,279
Speaker 3: without any kind of electronics or modern equipment, people were

701
00:39:56,719 --> 00:40:00,400
Speaker 3: able to figure out incredibly accurate ways of navigat And

702
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 3: so maybe there's stuff like this in the eyes of

703
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 3: animals or in plants that can tell you exactly what

704
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:08,719
Speaker 3: time it is. Is it true?

705
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've looked up an article. I found this article

706
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 2: on the website of the National Wildlife Federation by one

707
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: Donna Johnson, who, by the way, alludes to this being

708
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 2: a New England tradition. So I don't know where it originates.

709
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,200
Speaker 2: Maybe it originates in multiple cultures anytime you're close enough

710
00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 2: to a cat to look at their eyes. But she

711
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 2: does do a breakdown of the idea, like, basically, cats

712
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:38,680
Speaker 2: have elliptically shaped pupils to compensate for their light sensitivity,

713
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 2: which otherwise aids them in low light hunts. But the

714
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 2: greater the amount of light, the more slit like the pupil.

715
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 2: So it technically works, But it also seems again like

716
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 2: maybe not the most reliable time telling technique. And I

717
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 2: can't imagine a situation where the cat's eyes would be

718
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 2: the only thing to go off of many questions would

719
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 2: emerge here, But it's a neat idea, I.

720
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 3: Guess, well, I mean, if the cats eyes are responding

721
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 3: to the level of light, would the ninja not also

722
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 3: be able to see the level of light?

723
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: Exactly? All right? The final thing I want to hit

724
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,319
Speaker 2: on here in this series is the idea of the

725
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 2: ninja as hero because when it comes to pop cultural transformations,

726
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:32,919
Speaker 2: I think it's always interesting to look at the point

727
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:37,280
Speaker 2: where something completely flips from what it originally was. For instance,

728
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 2: in past episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, we

729
00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 2: discussed how various fearsome monsters, especially in Japanese culture, but

730
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,400
Speaker 2: we also looked at some examples from Western horror movies,

731
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:53,840
Speaker 2: eventually make the transformation from like a symbol symbolized aspect

732
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 2: of reality, you know, some sort of dark aspect of

733
00:41:57,160 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 2: reality that is embodied in some sort of a being

734
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 2: and imagine being, you know, fearsome entity. The point at

735
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,600
Speaker 2: which we take that and flip it into something cute,

736
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 2: something that would you know, make for a nice mascot,

737
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 2: look at it on a bumper sticker, or even be

738
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,440
Speaker 2: a stuffed animal. I think there's something telling about reaching

739
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 2: that point when the monster becomes cute, or in this case,

740
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 2: when the ninja becomes a hero.

741
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: When we've talked about this with regard to monsters, I

742
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,040
Speaker 3: remember one of my thoughts about it was that this

743
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 3: impulse is driven by franchising concerns, Like the further you

744
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: get into sequels and the more like movies or stories

745
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,239
Speaker 3: you've had exposing you to this monster over and over,

746
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 3: the less comfortable it is for the monster to continue

747
00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:47,759
Speaker 3: to be purely fearsome or evil, and there's an impulse

748
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:51,360
Speaker 3: to make it more friendly or at least maybe funnier

749
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 3: or something. So you can see this in you know,

750
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 3: like Godzilla originally is not nice and is not fun,

751
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 3: but eventually it becomes Godzilla becomes the defender essentially against

752
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 3: these worst monsters. You know, the new monster is the

753
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 3: worst one and Godzilla is the one we're familiar with

754
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,520
Speaker 3: fighting it off. And you can see over time that

755
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 3: Freddy Krueger goes from being just like a gross, disgusting

756
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 3: murderer into becoming like a jokester who's more just kind

757
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 3: of like mugging for the camera and yuck, yucks.

758
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, he becomes a violent clown.

759
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so forth. I think it's a really common pattern.

760
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 3: It's something about like familiarity takes the edge off of

761
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 3: something and makes you want to recast it as a

762
00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:36,960
Speaker 3: friend rather than a foe.

763
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 2: And so with the Ninja, you know, we've discussed at

764
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 2: length the nebulous reality and origins of the Shnobi and

765
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 2: how we're mostly talking about shadowy ESPA espionage operatives made

766
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: up of commoners and even criminals that engage in dirty,

767
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 2: if not you know, outright shameful acts that are necessary,

768
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: a necessary part of warfare, alongside the more celebrated noble

769
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:03,439
Speaker 2: and aristocratic exploits rulers in the Samurai. But then coming

770
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: out of the Warring States period and into the Edo

771
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:07,399
Speaker 2: period and beyond, we see the myth making. We see

772
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: the fiction transforming the myth of the Ninja in numerous ways,

773
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 2: giving it the form everyone instantly recognizes today. And so

774
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 2: many Ninja remain villains in these later treatments, but they

775
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: inevitably cross over into anti hero and even hero territory.

776
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:25,240
Speaker 2: And this kind of takes me back to our initial

777
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,839
Speaker 2: discussion talking about our initial introductions to ninja growing up,

778
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: And I look back and I think some of my

779
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 2: initial introductions to ninja actually cast them as heroes. Yeah,

780
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,720
Speaker 2: Like that nineteen eighty one Cannon film Injured the Ninja

781
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 2: is built around Franco Niro, an Italian actor, as at

782
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 2: least an anti hero. I don't think he's maybe quite

783
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,359
Speaker 2: a hero in that, but he's at least an anti hero.

784
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,719
Speaker 3: I feel like the majority of the Ninja media I

785
00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 3: consumed when I was a kid, had ninjas as heroes

786
00:44:58,080 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 3: rather than villains, or had them as bo Yeah.

787
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 2: I think that's very common as well, going back to

788
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: like G I Joe, like Snake Eyes is a black

789
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,879
Speaker 2: clad ninja and is very much on the certified good

790
00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: guy team. There's no there's it's black and white literally

791
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 2: though it's flipped because our black clad ninja is good

792
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:17,720
Speaker 2: and our white clad ninja is bad.

793
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 3: Yeah or yeah, so often they were both. But I

794
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 3: think there's an impulse there that it's just like, well,

795
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 3: especially in kid focus to media, ninjas are cool, and

796
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 3: kids want to root for the good guys, and they

797
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 3: want they want the good guys to be cool. So

798
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:34,959
Speaker 3: you got to make the ninja a good guy.

799
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I mean the teenage meeting Ninja turtles. Obviously

800
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 2: they're turtles, they're teenagers, but they are ninjas and they're

801
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,160
Speaker 2: very much the good guys. But then, going back to

802
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,520
Speaker 2: the Bond film, You Only Live Twice again vitally important

803
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,759
Speaker 2: in bringing the Ninja into the international market and into

804
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 2: Western cinema. All the Ninja in that all the Shnobi

805
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: operatives were working on James Bod's Bond's team. They were

806
00:45:58,239 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 2: all good guys essentially.

807
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:03,239
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, yeah, I think so there might be some

808
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 3: working for the bad guys, but I don't recall specifically.

809
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 3: The ones I remember are good guys.

810
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's like the big scene at the end where

811
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 2: they storm the Specter compound and bond lets the ninjas in.

812
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: He's like, he opens the door and here come the

813
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:19,399
Speaker 2: ninjas down on like wires and all.

814
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.

815
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: So, anyway, like getting down to discussion like when when

816
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: are ninjas allowed to become not just anti heroes but

817
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 2: outright good guys. Well, according to Yoda and all discussion

818
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: in Ninja Ninja Attack, there's a definite place to single

819
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: out perhaps is the first true ninja heroes in popular culture,

820
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: and it's the Tachikawa pocket Books. This would have been

821
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: the period around nineteen twelve through nineteen twenty six series

822
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 2: of books written by a group of writers that were

823
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,600
Speaker 2: credited as Seka Sanjan, a series of novels for juvenile

824
00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: so like essentially like young reader or children's books that

825
00:46:58,280 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: detailed the adventures of the pair of rival ninja that

826
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 2: they were on the same team. To be clear, they're

827
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 2: not like rival teams or rival clans, but they have

828
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:11,600
Speaker 2: differing personalities. They're kind of an odd couple, and that's

829
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:17,439
Speaker 2: Saratobi Saske and Kira Gakura Saizo. And this was these

830
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:21,880
Speaker 2: books established these two as quote poster boys for the

831
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 2: ego koga rivalry and ninja as a potential force for good,

832
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:30,319
Speaker 2: and it was inspired by these tales were inspired by

833
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 2: both real life at least attributed ninja exploits as well

834
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 2: as the Chinese literary classic Journey into the West. How

835
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:40,879
Speaker 2: is it related to the Journey into the West. Well,

836
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 2: a lot of it comes down to the character of

837
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,879
Speaker 2: Saratobi Saske, a young boy raised by monkeys and then

838
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,719
Speaker 2: taken in by a ninja master and then recruited by

839
00:47:49,719 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 2: the warlords Sonata due to his mischievous nature and his

840
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: great skill and of course the ninja arts, so he

841
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 2: ends up going on missions for his master. But he's

842
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 2: also you know, a good bit the trickster, a bit

843
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 2: happy go lucky, and he does a lot of side

844
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,439
Speaker 2: quests to help the less fortunate. But the name here

845
00:48:06,800 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 2: Saratobi means leaping monkey, and he is in some ways

846
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 2: a Japanese ninja version of the Monkey King.

847
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,560
Speaker 3: It's interesting that you mentioned him doing sort of side

848
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 3: quests to help the less fortunate, because I have seen

849
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 3: that it is I have read at least that it

850
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:26,880
Speaker 3: is common in literature that portrays the ninja as heroes

851
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,720
Speaker 3: or good guys to include some kind of class element

852
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:34,960
Speaker 3: where they are sort of they act on behalf of

853
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,840
Speaker 3: the economic underclass of like the of the poor and

854
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,919
Speaker 3: the less fortunate, and help them in the face of say,

855
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 3: like rich oppressors, like an evil samurai.

856
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and a lot of the I think we

857
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:49,160
Speaker 2: touched on some of these older tales that are either

858
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: ninja or ninja adjacent that are essentially robinhood stories, like

859
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 2: some sort of person from the criminal element, you know,

860
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,920
Speaker 2: and from the lower classes that is sticking up for

861
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 2: the little guy. Now, the other of these two the rival.

862
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 2: So we have the happy, go lucky guy, the more

863
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 2: like the sort of the more pure hero here. But

864
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: then we have Kiragakua Saizo, who is born into the

865
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 2: ninja life. It has said he's trained with the best

866
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,400
Speaker 2: and he's become a master of clouds and lightning, of

867
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:22,760
Speaker 2: mists and thunder, so you know, he can summon various

868
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: weather effects to mask his ninja movements. And the name

869
00:49:26,800 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 2: here means cloaked and missed. So while Saske is lighthearted,

870
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:34,440
Speaker 2: Sizo is brooding, Like this is more of your your

871
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 2: kind of like goth superstar character here. Nice they wind

872
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:40,960
Speaker 2: up on the same Ninja team, this would be Sonata's

873
00:49:41,040 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 2: Ten Heroes or the Ten Braves, but their rivals. They're

874
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: an odd couple to say the least. And Yoda and

875
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 2: all point out that, Yeah, the nature of these two

876
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:54,360
Speaker 2: characters kind of flows perfectly into modern times. So Saske

877
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 2: was always a hit with the kids, but then Siso

878
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 2: was irresistible to you know, many in the post war period,

879
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: especially as like you know, older Ninja fans and adults

880
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,239
Speaker 2: told and retold stories. He's like a natural character to

881
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 2: latch onto. He's got this kind of angst sort of

882
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 2: in bridging the gap between anti hero and hero, you know,

883
00:50:17,560 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: so it fits that mold of the brooding sort of

884
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:24,919
Speaker 2: Batman esque hero. I guess I included an image here, Joe.

885
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:27,400
Speaker 2: This is from one of the many more modern treatments

886
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: from anime and manga. And you can guess which one

887
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,480
Speaker 2: is which you know, which one is is your brooding

888
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,440
Speaker 2: character and which one is your more happy, go lucky character.

889
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 3: Oh, Sizo even has like emo hair.

890
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:43,759
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yes, like again just a natural fit you know,

891
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,080
Speaker 2: for for like kind of an angsty emo character. And

892
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,399
Speaker 2: then we have the Trickster, the essentially the monkey King

893
00:50:50,440 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 2: in Ninja form. Of course they're not going to completely

894
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 2: get along, but they are going to ultimately work, you know,

895
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 2: for the same cause that's sweet. Yeah. So yeah, I

896
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 2: thought that was an interesting this idea of like, Okay,

897
00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 2: these might be the patient zeros for good guy ninjas

898
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 2: in popular culture, and these are characters that get used

899
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 2: again and again. Now I think Sizo has also been

900
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 2: used as an antagonist in some modern treatment. So it

901
00:51:15,080 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 2: kind of comes back to what we were saying about monsters.

902
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: Just because a monster goes cute, it doesn't mean you

903
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 2: can't go back and make them fearsome. Again, this kind

904
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,240
Speaker 2: of thing happens all the time, and so there's always

905
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,800
Speaker 2: going to be continued exploration and re exploration. Just because

906
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:31,800
Speaker 2: ninjas become heroes or anti heroes and one property doesn't

907
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:35,360
Speaker 2: mean they can't be just absolute villains in another. You know,

908
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 2: we can continue to have fun in that regard.

909
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a sawtooth effect. I mean, you know, by

910
00:51:40,880 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 3: the seventies you've already got all monsters attack and the

911
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:46,760
Speaker 3: ones where Godzilla is like, oh, he's a good dad.

912
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:50,719
Speaker 3: But then you come back decades later and you can

913
00:51:50,719 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 3: get Hinn Godzillo. Yeah, where the monster is a problem

914
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 3: yet again.

915
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, Well there you have it, Part four

916
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: of the Ninja. You know, I don't know that we

917
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:03,320
Speaker 2: covered everything, but we covered a lot of things related

918
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,239
Speaker 2: to the Ninja. If we missed anything, or if there's

919
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:09,040
Speaker 2: some detail you would like to bring up, write in.

920
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you. Just a reminder

921
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:14,879
Speaker 2: that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a science

922
00:52:14,880 --> 00:52:17,560
Speaker 2: and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

923
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 2: We do a short form episode on Wednesdays. Fridays we

924
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set aside

925
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 2: most serious concerns to just talk about what a weird film.

926
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: And currently we run rerun or volve episodes on Saturdays

927
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,560
Speaker 2: and on Mondays, where we've been experimenting with different format.

928
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 2: But we are going to have more listener mail episodes

929
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 2: pop up. In fact, there should be one popping up

930
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: this Thursday. If everything goes according to plan and let's

931
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,640
Speaker 2: see finally, oh yeah, if you're on social media, look

932
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 2: us up. We're probably on there. Follow us. If you're

933
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: on Instagram, we are stb ym podcast. Just help me,

934
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,399
Speaker 2: help us get our our subscriber or follower base up

935
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 2: there a bit. It's a it's a newer account. The

936
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 2: old one went away and ninjas took it down, So

937
00:53:03,440 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 2: help us get some numbers on that new one. If

938
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:07,560
Speaker 2: you use the format, but don't sign up for it.

939
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 2: If you're not using it already, I mean, really all

940
00:53:09,760 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 2: the social media stuff, don't put a lot of work

941
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:13,399
Speaker 2: into it.

942
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

943
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

944
00:53:19,080 --> 00:53:21,880
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

945
00:53:21,880 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

946
00:53:24,160 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your

947
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

948
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

949
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

950
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows

951
00:54:00,120 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: at my fe