WEBVTT - Industrial Policy and the Forgotten Side of Alexander Hamilton 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:13.400 Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.520 Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:23.720 M Joe Wisenthal and I'm Tracy Alloway. 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:27.920 Tracy, Uh, did you ever see the musical Hamilton? 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:29.000 No? 0:00:29.640 --> 0:00:33.000 I didn't. Can I just say listeners? Joe has already 0:00:33.040 --> 0:00:37.000 asked me this question in preparation for the podcast, and 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:40.720 he actually did a really amazing summary of all of Hamilton. 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:42.959 You didn't sing it or wrap it, which I think 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:44.640 you should have done, but it was pretty good. 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.600 Yeah, I mean, look, I think can I just say, 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:49.560 like I actually did like it at the time that 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:51.879 I saw it, and I still like, if I'm in 0:00:51.920 --> 0:00:53.800 the car with my kids, like it's not bad to 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:56.880 put on. I feel like liking Hamilton. It's a little 0:00:56.920 --> 0:00:59.279 cringe now. It's very like, you know. 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:00.760 Very stream for you. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:03.160 Yeah, you know, it's like you're a little twenty tens. 0:01:03.200 --> 0:01:04.720 It's a little bit like we sort of moved on, 0:01:04.840 --> 0:01:07.360 but like, it is an entertaining show. It's not the 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:10.440 worst as far as musicals go, many of which are 0:01:10.520 --> 0:01:12.520 very bad in my opinion, it's not the worst one. 0:01:12.920 --> 0:01:16.960 It definitely kind of vaulted Hamilton. It feels weird to 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:19.320 say this now, but I guess it vaulted him into 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.000 the public consciousness. But it's interesting because as far as 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:25.920 I understand, and here I have to confess that I 0:01:26.000 --> 0:01:29.520 never really did US history when I was in high school. 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:31.640 I was in Austria and then Japan. So this is 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.679 a big blind spot for me. But when I think 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:38.839 of Hamilton now, I think of like the federalist papers, 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:43.240 maybe the financial system. But it turns out there's this 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:48.680 huge body of Hamiltonian thought that is all about the 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:53.680 real economy and I guess manufacturing, industrial policy development. 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:56.680 Yeah, and this is not at all in I haven't 0:01:56.720 --> 0:01:59.680 read the Wrong Churnall biography, but it's certainly not in 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:03.320 the US. And basically the play or the musical like 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:05.120 sort of you know, he has these rat battles with 0:02:05.160 --> 0:02:06.560 Thomas Jefferson. 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.480 And Joe summarize the rap battles. 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:13.400 And you know, obviously Thomas Jefferson is a defender of 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.720 the system of slavery. And what's important is like doing 0:02:16.720 --> 0:02:18.720 the planting and all you guys do up north is 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:20.760 like finance, but we're supposed to be on the side 0:02:20.800 --> 0:02:23.240 of finance. Is the audience in this and set it, 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.720 you know, first Secretary of the Treasury. But as you 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.440 point out, there is much more to Hamilton than just 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:33.200 this sort of like dichotomy of the slave owning plantation 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:36.080 owners in the South and then those of us up 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:38.600 in New York City who just do numbers and finance. 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:41.480 Yeah. And I guess the other thing to point out is, 0:02:41.680 --> 0:02:46.400 obviously industrial policy is having a moment since the pandemic, 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:50.679 and we've seen various steps and projects from the Biden administration, 0:02:50.880 --> 0:02:53.799 including the IRA and things like that. So it's kind 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.480 of interesting to go back in time and consider the 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:03.200 American historical HAMILTONI in roots of progressive industrial policy. 0:03:03.280 --> 0:03:05.680 Well, and this comes out every time we do an 0:03:05.680 --> 0:03:08.600 episode like on the Chips Act or the Inflational Reduction Act, 0:03:08.600 --> 0:03:11.920 et cetera. Someone says, well, you know, industrial policy is 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:13.840 not this new thing in America, and as if we 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:15.520 did this in the past, and they start to leave 0:03:15.560 --> 0:03:17.640 it there. But I think it's a good idea to 0:03:17.639 --> 0:03:21.239 like actually start exploring some of those historical roots of 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.680 the role that the federal government can and has played 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:29.240 in the past in channeling industries, channeling capital, channeling real 0:03:29.240 --> 0:03:33.160 physical resources, promoting domestic manufacturing. Because everyone says Oh, we 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:35.040 always did this in the past, but we sort of 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:36.640 have to talk more about what that past looked like. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:39.360 Yes, so this is the episode for anyone who has 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.480 ever said that statement. The US has a long history 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:43.560 of this industrial policy. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:45.360 We're going to go back to the very beginning. Well, 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:47.920 I'm really excited about our guests. Like I said, I 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:50.560 never read the wrong Turnout Biography, but I did read 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:54.760 radical Hamilton Economic Lessons from a misunderstood founder. The author, 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:57.760 Christian Parenti, is joining us. He is a professor in 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:01.480 the John Jay Economics program that housed within the Quney 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.640 System of New York City. So, Christian Prenti, thank you 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:06.160 so much for coming on odd Lots. 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:08.120 Thank you very much for inviting me. 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.720 I loved your book, But did you want have you? 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:11.960 Did you watch the musical? 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.240 I did not watch the musical. I don't really like musicals, 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:15.480 so I. 0:04:15.960 --> 0:04:19.640 Have a complicated view towards musicals myself, so I totally 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.240 get that. Why did you think another Hamilton book was necessary? 0:04:23.320 --> 0:04:27.640 Well, I did read the Churnout Biography, and while reading it, 0:04:27.680 --> 0:04:32.279 there's a mention of the report on the subject of manufacturers, 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.839 which is Hamilton's magnum opus in many ways, and it 0:04:35.920 --> 0:04:40.800 is an argument for in a blueprint for planning to 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:44.560 drive a transition from an agrarian based economy to a 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.760 manufacturing based economy. And that was very interesting to me, 0:04:47.920 --> 0:04:50.240 and I tried to find more on it, and there 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:53.159 really wasn't that much in the literature. So this book 0:04:53.279 --> 0:04:57.039 actually began by mistake. Almost The idea was to republish 0:04:57.160 --> 0:04:59.520 the report on the subjects of Manufacturers, and I would 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:02.880 do an introduction, and then the introduction turned into a 0:05:02.880 --> 0:05:04.400 book long away. It was like, oh, we'll have it 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.880 as at appendix, but that just you know, it became 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:11.120 an effort to fill in the gap around Hamilton's thinking 0:05:11.120 --> 0:05:13.719 about the real economy and about what we would call 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:17.800 industrialization or industrial policy, but what they called manufacturers. 0:05:18.279 --> 0:05:21.440 Why do you think that Hamilton's legacy is so much 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:25.840 more focused, I suppose on the federalist papers on maybe 0:05:25.880 --> 0:05:30.040 building the financial system versus the paper that you just mentioned, 0:05:30.040 --> 0:05:32.719 Because again I will confess that before I read the book, 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:37.240 I had never heard of that particular piece of Hamilton writing. 0:05:38.200 --> 0:05:39.839 Part of it has to do with the fact that 0:05:40.200 --> 0:05:44.520 the report on manufacturers was controversial from the beginning, and 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:46.800 there was pushback from the beginning, and there has been 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:50.680 pushback against the kinds of policies that it advocated all 0:05:50.680 --> 0:05:52.920 the way through, so it just sort of dropped away. 0:05:52.960 --> 0:05:57.520 And there is a mythology about American capitalism which tries 0:05:57.720 --> 0:06:01.000 to minimize the role of government in that story. And 0:06:01.080 --> 0:06:05.200 so that's why we have previously hadn't thought sufficiently about 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:07.680 the Report on the Subject of Manufacturers, because it clashes 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:11.480 with prevailing notions about how capitalism works, which is that 0:06:11.560 --> 0:06:16.279 it's all about free enterprise and entrepreneurs and free trade. 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:20.040 And in fact, what the story of Hamilton's Report on 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.760 the Subject of Manufacturers shows, and I think you can 0:06:22.800 --> 0:06:27.880 see it throughout world history, is that successful capitalist industrialization 0:06:28.320 --> 0:06:33.400 pretty much always involves an activist state that intervenes, gets 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:39.160 prices wrong, and helps drive an economy towards manufacturing. In fact, 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:41.880 in the beginning of the Report on the Subject of Manufacturers, 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.719 Hamilton launches a critique of Adam Smith. Hamilton supposedly wrote 0:06:46.760 --> 0:06:50.159 a whole treatment of Smith's Wealth of Nations, but that's 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.120 been lost to us. But that's why. And I studied 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.040 with Alice Amsden, who's passed away, who is an economist 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.200 at the New School many many years ago, and she 0:07:00.360 --> 0:07:02.560 wrote the definitive book, or sort of the first big 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.440 book on Korean industrialization. It was all about this, and 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:08.240 so that really interested me and the similarity, you know, 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:10.400 the fact that the US at the beginning of the 0:07:10.400 --> 0:07:15.040 story of American capitalism is the story of a developmentalist state, 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.600 and I've been interested in those questions as they appear 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:19.440 in the global South. 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.600 It's funny you mentioned Korea's development because we did an 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:25.880 episode Joe. I don't know if you remember many many 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.160 years ago about the development of the k pop and 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.600 entertainment industry in South Korea and how much of it 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.200 was actually driven by a conscious government effort. Where a 0:07:36.200 --> 0:07:39.720 lot of people think even this kind of creative industry 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:42.440 develops naturally, but in the case of South Korea, there 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:43.520 was a lot of support. 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.760 I actually have Elis Anderson's book Escaped from Empire to 0:07:46.800 --> 0:07:49.160 Developing World's Journey through Heaven and Hell on my bookshelf. 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:51.160 I need to read that book there. 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:54.440 What were the economic conditions in the US at the 0:07:54.520 --> 0:07:57.120 time or I guess was it the US in the 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:01.760 colonies at the time that Hamilton was looking at that. 0:08:01.920 --> 0:08:04.640 He's a okay, we need to talk about a government 0:08:04.760 --> 0:08:05.560 role in manufacturing. 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.720 Yeah, to some extent, this gets into why the revolution occurred, 0:08:09.240 --> 0:08:15.080 and British mercantilism was putting very explicit and onerous restrictions 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:19.400 on economic development in the United States. For example, hat 0:08:19.480 --> 0:08:23.160 makers in the US couldn't have more than two apprentices. Right. 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.080 There was a robust fur trade and beaver pelts were 0:08:27.680 --> 0:08:30.200 much in demand in Europe for making hats, and the 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:34.800 US had a nascent hat industry and British economic policies 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.240 made it illegal for it to develop as much as 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.839 it could. Similarly, around iron smelting, iron could only be 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:45.360 processed to a certain level. So there were very real 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.640 restrictions on the development of manufacturers because Britain held these 0:08:49.720 --> 0:08:53.880 thirteen colonies as colonies, and so they wanted these colonies 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:55.920 as a market. So that's one of the reasons actually 0:08:55.960 --> 0:09:00.640 that northern kind of nascent manufacturing interests gravitate towards revolutionary 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:02.920 cause there's other there's all sorts of interests, right, I mean, 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.559 it's like the rhetoric of freedom is appealing to the 0:09:05.640 --> 0:09:10.439 working classes in the slaves South. There was fear that 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:14.760 the British Empire was going to restrict slavery, because there 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:18.160 is the Summerset case in seventeen seventy three. I think 0:09:18.200 --> 0:09:21.120 it is in which a planter, a British planter in Jamaica, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:25.880 comes back to England with an enslaved person and that 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.559 person gets in touch with abolitionists who say, you know, 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:32.320 slavery is illegal in England, even though though it's legal 0:09:32.360 --> 0:09:34.920 in the colonies. This goes all the way through the 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:37.559 English court system and it is ruled that yes, you 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:39.640 may be enslaved in Jamaica, but as soon as you 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.640 set foot in England you are free. This sent shockwaves 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.439 of fear throughout the elites of the South. One of 0:09:47.559 --> 0:09:51.560 the richest people in the British Empire was a South 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:55.800 Carolina slave owner, Henry Lawrence, who later is actually President 0:09:55.880 --> 0:09:58.600 of the Continental Congress, and he felt threatened like, well, 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:03.160 now I can't travel to England with my chattel, slavery, 0:10:03.400 --> 0:10:06.840 my servants. What's next. Maybe they're going to come after 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.719 slavery entirely. Because there was a movement also in the 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.719 northern colonies against slavery. So there's a whole variety of 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:17.800 causes that coalesce and drive many of the colonists. Though 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:22.800 not all to embrace revolution and independence. The economic conditions, 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:27.959 getting back to your question, were pretty underdeveloped. Agriculture was 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:33.599 predominant in the south. The economy was dominated by large planters. 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:38.440 Most white Southerners didn't own slaves, but almost half did 0:10:38.520 --> 0:10:40.839 own slaves, but most slaves were owned by a small 0:10:40.920 --> 0:10:43.880 group of men who owned many, many slaves and much land. 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:46.680 So that was the southern economy. And in the north 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.319 you had small family farms, and there'd almost been a 0:10:49.400 --> 0:10:53.320 kind of repeasantization in that many of these farms were 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:56.719 quite self sufficient and had only a tenuous connection to 0:10:56.880 --> 0:11:00.280 the cache economy of war. The revolutionary war will actually 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:04.440 drive many of those northern tier farmers into the cash 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:08.480 economy because they have to pay taxes and they have 0:11:08.559 --> 0:11:11.360 to come up with cash. So and in those northern 0:11:11.480 --> 0:11:15.920 family farms there were small craft productions. There was home 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:20.679 based productions generally, you know, like building. Along with your 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.400 self sufficient farm, you maybe produce a little extra dairy 0:11:24.720 --> 0:11:26.679 for the market, but then also in the winter you 0:11:26.800 --> 0:11:29.839 create barrel staves or shoes or something like that. So 0:11:29.880 --> 0:11:33.360 there was this workshop based manufacturing. There are no American banks, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:38.319 and the thirteen colonies are all independent there's no transportation network, 0:11:38.840 --> 0:11:43.160 so after the war it's an absolute mess. And Hamilton's 0:11:43.200 --> 0:11:47.040 concern is first and foremost national security, because we're going 0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:50.000 to be reconquered and recolonized if we don't have a 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:53.559 strong army and navy and state. And the only way 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:57.160 we can afford that is if we transition as quickly 0:11:57.160 --> 0:12:01.360 as possible to a manufacturing based economy, and that's not 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:04.280 going to happen by following Adam Smith and letting the 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:06.480 market do his think. We need to actually have a 0:12:06.600 --> 0:12:11.360 plan that can help push this transition. At first, Hamilton 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:17.680 is not particularly concerned with economics. He's writing about democracy 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:23.280 and all that. When fighting begins, he organizes an artillery 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:25.760 company and he serves for about a year on the 0:12:25.840 --> 0:12:30.200 front lines. And because he's so brilliant and good at 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:33.920 what he does, he's receiving these offers from generals to 0:12:34.080 --> 0:12:37.920 join their staffs, and he holds out until Washington offers 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.719 him a place on his quote unquote family with just 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.800 to say, his staff. So then Hamilton transitions to the 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:47.800 role of a kind of military planner, and he has 0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:51.400 an overall view of the war, and what he sees 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:56.600 is one total dysfunction at the level of politics because 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.959 the colonies are not properly united under the Articles of Confederation, 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:06.400 which is just a loose security pact, and each colony 0:13:06.600 --> 0:13:10.079 is essentially a sovereign state, and so there's a continental 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:12.840 Army which answers to Congress, but there are also these 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.360 malicious state militias, and so states would send aid to 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:19.959 the Continental Army and put provisions on say like this 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:23.840 clothing is for the Pennsylvania line, you know, please don't 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:27.199 distribute this weaponry to whatever the New England line, this 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:30.719 kind of stuff. Congress had no means of taxing, so 0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.439 Hamilton is viewing all of this from this kind of 0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:36.920 archimedean bird'seye view on Washington's staff. 0:13:52.400 --> 0:13:55.280 So one of the things that comes through in your book, 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:57.599 and again like, I don't know much about this, but 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:00.120 I didn't realize how much of a basket case the 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:04.199 Revolutionary War kind of was, and how disorganized in some 0:14:04.400 --> 0:14:08.800 respects and just terrible physical conditions. So you write about how, 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:12.040 you know, there were soldiers who rebelled because they weren't 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.960 getting paid because there were no taxes, so the federal government, 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.720 which didn't really exist, could not pay them, and also 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.640 how soldiers had to be let loose in the forests 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.880 to like slaughter wild pigs because they didn't have enough 0:14:24.920 --> 0:14:28.320 food supply and things like that. It very much seems 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:31.000 to highlight the idea or the importance of the role 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:37.200 of the supply chain and physical real goods in military conflict. 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.000 And I guess by extension in government. 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:44.600 Absolutely and I think many of US labor under a 0:14:44.760 --> 0:14:48.040 misapprehension that the Revolutionary War was a guerrilla war and 0:14:48.120 --> 0:14:51.920 that the patriots were living off the land and you know, 0:14:52.520 --> 0:14:53.480 taking potshots of the. 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:55.760 British from I was an elementary school ar. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.360 Yeah, that's how I learned it. But actually it was 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.760 a conventional war, which is say, very expensive, and most 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.960 of the conflicts were forceaw on force with these long 0:15:06.080 --> 0:15:09.800 supply chains. You know, everything had to be provided to 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:14.200 these armies. Salt, for example, somethings as mundane AsSalt. This 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:17.840 was extremely important. As one old article put it said, 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.440 salt was as important to the Revolutionary War armies as 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:24.600 gasoline was to the armies of nineteen forty five. If 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.760 you didn't have salt for the animals, they would very 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.800 quickly get weak and couldn't function. You had to cure 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.680 food with salt, so salt was essential. There really wasn't 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.000 a salt industry in the colonies because one of the 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:42.440 few things that the British Navigation Acts, one of the 0:15:42.520 --> 0:15:44.800 weird little kind of wrinkles in them, was that they 0:15:44.880 --> 0:15:49.760 allowed ships coming from Europe to fill their hulls for 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:54.240 ballast with French salt. So there was this flow of 0:15:54.560 --> 0:15:57.360 relatively cheap, high quality salt into the colonies. So the 0:15:57.440 --> 0:16:01.560 colonies didn't actually have much of a industry. So during 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:03.360 the war that's cut off, so they have to start 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.920 developing AsSalt industry. They've got these, like you know, anemic 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:11.800 little foundries, one down in Virginia, some up in Pennsylvania. 0:16:12.120 --> 0:16:14.800 They have to start building all this up as the 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:17.920 war is going on. And even though there were these 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:21.280 long supply lines, things were so harsh that there was 0:16:21.400 --> 0:16:25.360 also what they called the Grand Forage that soldiers would 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:30.520 go out to requisition and nominally purchase supplies. But they're 0:16:30.560 --> 0:16:34.560 doing this with a series of increasingly worthless scripts. At 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.360 first you have the Continental dollar, which the British are 0:16:37.400 --> 0:16:41.840 also counterfeiting, and then they just overproduce Continental dollars so 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:45.200 that they're worthless. Then they create this IOU system called 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.760 Piris's notes, which turned into another kind of paper currency. 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:51.240 But these requisition squads would go out into the countryside 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:53.320 and say to farmers like, well, you know, if you 0:16:53.400 --> 0:16:56.040 support the cause, we're here to buy with this worthless money, 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.960 you know whatever, ten percent of your produce, your half 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:01.480 your chickens, whatever. If you refused, and they said, well, 0:17:01.520 --> 0:17:04.359 you're a loyalist, you're against our call, so we're just 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:07.560 going to confiscate everything. So they're pushing all of this 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:10.560 paper currency, which during the war leads to inflation, and 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:13.080 then there's a big crash after the war. So it's 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.200 totally chaotic, and the scale of some of these operations 0:17:16.320 --> 0:17:20.600 is nuts. There was a campaign in seventeen seventy nine 0:17:20.720 --> 0:17:24.240 against the Iroquois, who had mostly sided with the British, 0:17:24.320 --> 0:17:28.639 and it involved damming a river, building a road to 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:32.160 the river, building a fleet of boats to go down 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.040 the river, and then blowing this dam and riding this 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:39.040 wave of water down river to then launch on this 0:17:39.280 --> 0:17:45.600 expedition against the Iroquois. So capital intensive, labor intensive, big 0:17:45.800 --> 0:17:46.919 economic endeavor. 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.000 So one of the things that's interesting these days is, 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:51.760 you know, people have talked for years in the US, 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.399 like we need to revive domestic manufacturing. It's is one 0:17:54.400 --> 0:17:56.720 of those things that gets said what seems to help 0:17:56.880 --> 0:17:59.879 get the voats over the line to actually do endeavors, 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.240 even when it comes to something like climate is the 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:07.600 idea of existential national security threat. We have to compete 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:09.719 against China, right, Like, that's how it's framed. And when 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:13.399 there's the rivalry with China as the framing, then that 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:17.040 opens the door for vote. And it sounds like, and 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.920 you talk about this in your book that ultimately it 0:18:20.040 --> 0:18:21.680 was the same that that at the end, it's like, 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.600 there is no sovereign US without manufacturing. Yes, that we 0:18:25.680 --> 0:18:29.400 can't maintain our independence even if we win it without manufacturing. 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:33.840 That was Hamilton's insight that this independence would be totally 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:39.159 illusory if it was not backed up with material force, 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:41.680 and that material force was going to be expensive, and 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:47.040 that required an economic transformation, an industrialization program. But they 0:18:47.080 --> 0:18:50.360 didn't use that word. They talked about manufacturers. So that's 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:53.280 what he sets out to do. And amidst the war, 0:18:53.359 --> 0:18:54.760 he has a kind of what seems to be a 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:57.960 mental breakdown. He goes in't this nervous fever during the 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.240 winter when they're all at Valley Forge and there's a 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:02.800 number of generals going rogue and he's sent up to like, 0:19:03.280 --> 0:19:06.480 you know, reimpose order, and then he has this crazy breakdown, 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:11.240 and after that his writing is really different. He begins 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:15.399 a series of letters to elites outlining the need for 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:18.840 constitutional convention and an economic plan. And so the rest 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:20.760 of his life is that. And it should be said 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.239 that the war ends in seventeen eighty three. There are 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:28.840 rebellions like increasing in the ranks, mutinies, culminating with a 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.960 mutiny by officers in Newburgh, New York, which is often 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.919 misrepresented as if these guys are all greedy and trying 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:40.159 to you know, you know, have some crupdetas, but they 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:43.639 are suffering like their men. I mean, they have boots 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:45.240 that some of their men are shoeless, but it's like 0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.440 they had really suffered and they were demanding from Congress 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:51.920 some resources. After the war beginning in you know, the 0:19:52.040 --> 0:19:54.639 fighting kind of winds down around seventeen eighty, but the 0:19:54.800 --> 0:19:58.280 Treaty of Paris isn't until seventeen eighty three, and there 0:19:58.320 --> 0:20:01.159 then begins was called the Critical Peer, which is a 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.040 period in which the United States is still governed by 0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:10.480 the Articles of Confederation, and all sorts of serious economic 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:14.200 and political and even military problems begin to happen. There's 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.520 a trade war between New Jersey and New York, and 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.920 New York and Connecticut. Maryland and Virginia are having similar 0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:28.520 trade wars. On the Chesapeak, there's conflict with Maroon communities 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:32.399 self emancipated formally enslaved people, some of whom had served 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.040 with the British Army, who have these autonomous communities. On 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:38.520 the board of South Carolina and Georgia, there's increasing conflict 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:42.680 with Native Americans. In what's now Kentucky. There's conflict between 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:48.159 groups of white settlers and their speculative land backers, like 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:51.919 these two competing factions in the Wyoming Valley of Pennsylvania, 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.080 which turns into a shooting war in which people are 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.240 being killed and homes are burned. And then all of 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:02.960 this culminates with Shay's rebellion in seventeen eighty six in 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:07.760 western Massachusetts. And all of these states had gone heavily 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:11.679 into debt during the war, and many of those IOUs 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:15.280 that I mentioned earlier were bought up at pennies on 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.400 the dollar used to be their face value by speculators. 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:24.320 And in Massachusetts, thirty five people owned almost half of 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:28.120 all of the state's debt, and Congress is making these 0:21:28.200 --> 0:21:34.440 requests and seventeen eighty four there's this massive requisition request, 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:39.159 which by seventeen eighty six is really hurting people on 0:21:39.240 --> 0:21:42.720 the ground. And so this request for a tax take 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:46.320 from Congress is part of what's pushing Massachusetts to shake 0:21:46.440 --> 0:21:50.800 down its farmers. There's also, interestingly, a series of volcanic eruptions, 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.920 one in Iceland and one in Japan. 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.119 Which affected the growing season. 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.920 Right. Yeah, there's a really really cold summers and floods 0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:07.000 knocking out crops and barns. So all this is happening. Yeah, 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:10.320 And so amidst this, through this massive wave of foreclosures 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.840 in Massachusetts and also in New Hampshire and other parts 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:16.439 of New England. But in Massachusetts this coalesces into an 0:22:16.440 --> 0:22:20.199 actual armed rebellion led by veterans of the Revolutionary War, 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:24.760 in particular Daniel Shayes. The Schaiesites didn't call themselves Shaysites. 0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.480 They call themselves regulators. And what they did was they 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.080 just closed down the courts and the militia was called 0:22:32.160 --> 0:22:34.520 up to put an end to this, and the militia 0:22:34.560 --> 0:22:37.720 would switch sides or refuse to fight, or just melt away. 0:22:38.240 --> 0:22:40.960 So the coastal elites, who owned all the debt that 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:43.760 they were trying to collect on by foreclosing on these farms, 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:47.000 create a private army. They take up a subscription of 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:50.320 a private army, and there's actually a series of force 0:22:50.359 --> 0:22:54.440 on force battles with cannons, and the Shazites are defeated 0:22:54.680 --> 0:22:58.680 in the early spring winter of seventeen eighty seven. And 0:22:58.800 --> 0:23:02.320 it's in response to that crisis that the Constitutional Convention 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:04.280 happens in Philadelphia. 0:23:04.320 --> 0:23:06.280 There's literally like this, this is Hamilton. This is what 0:23:06.400 --> 0:23:10.000 Joe said, Hamilton, the musical one, right, right, Okay, So 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:12.200 can I just ask you You can kind of see 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:17.800 why Hamilton would make the argument that the US, such 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:21.760 as it was at that time, needs to develop industrially, 0:23:21.960 --> 0:23:26.880 build out manufacturing capacity, create a strong system of government, 0:23:27.000 --> 0:23:29.120 and things like that. But one thing I don't quite 0:23:29.320 --> 0:23:36.080 understand from that period is why was agrarianism seemingly so 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:40.120 well regarded. Because it's hard for me to even envision 0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.000 a time when there was this agrarian ideal because we're 0:23:44.080 --> 0:23:48.920 so used to talking about development, linear development of economies, 0:23:49.000 --> 0:23:51.600 you know, you move from farming to manufacturing to a 0:23:51.720 --> 0:23:55.000 service based economy. It's weird to think that at that 0:23:55.200 --> 0:23:58.560 time there was actually a number of people who said 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:00.879 that agrarianism was the best economic system. 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:06.560 Yes, at most famous among them Thomas Jefferson. Agrarianism was 0:24:06.760 --> 0:24:11.600 popular because that's what most people did. And Jefferson famously 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:16.440 or infamously says in one correspondence that it would be 0:24:16.560 --> 0:24:22.639 better to leave manufacturing workshops in Europe because manufacturing brings 0:24:22.720 --> 0:24:27.119 with it a degradation of character, and that the farming 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:30.000 classes are the most noble, and so it was a 0:24:30.119 --> 0:24:36.200 very romantic argument about national character. Underneath that, though, was 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:40.960 also a very material concern with what it would mean 0:24:41.280 --> 0:24:45.240 for the slave South were the North where there was 0:24:45.440 --> 0:24:47.639 at this point at the end of the Revolution, that 0:24:48.040 --> 0:24:51.840 slavery has been outlawed in Massachusetts, it's been outlawed in Vermont, 0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:54.720 which is not yet actually a state. It's on the 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:57.800 way to being outlawed in Pennsylvania and New York. That'll 0:24:57.840 --> 0:25:00.600 take a couple more decades. But this so other elite 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:03.520 can see the writing on the wall that their system 0:25:03.600 --> 0:25:08.879 is unpopular, and if the North becomes more populous and wealthier, 0:25:09.200 --> 0:25:12.000 then it would dominate the federal government. This was their 0:25:12.080 --> 0:25:16.159 fear and then perhaps come after their property. And that 0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:19.280 is indeed what happened. And part of what drove that 0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:23.560 northern hostility to slavery was humanitarian. It was like a 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:27.040 religious kind of humanitarian sensibility, but there was also an 0:25:27.080 --> 0:25:31.440 element of self interest. Northern farmers were really worried that 0:25:31.680 --> 0:25:35.280 this system would crowd them out of western lands and 0:25:35.359 --> 0:25:38.159 that it might extend to the north. They did not think, oh, 0:25:38.840 --> 0:25:43.840 slavery is naturally limited to grarian work on continent tobacco 0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:46.280 in the south. They were worried that the workers of 0:25:46.359 --> 0:25:48.720 the North could also be enslaved. That's sort of just 0:25:48.840 --> 0:25:50.879 emerging at the time of the revolution, so anyway, so 0:25:51.040 --> 0:25:56.840 that's part of what is motivating Jefferson's hostility initially to manufacturing, 0:25:56.920 --> 0:26:00.399 and this is romanticization of the agrarian character. Also that 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:04.400 they don't want the northern states to get too powerful, 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:08.680 and so the Constitution actually involves all sorts of compromises 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:12.280 to compensate for the fact that that's very likely to happen. 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:16.880 The Senate being one of those important compromises where every 0:26:17.040 --> 0:26:21.080 state gets to senators, and the Southern elites dominated the 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:23.399 Senate for a very long time, and it should be 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:25.639 set up until the Civil War, the richest people in 0:26:25.720 --> 0:26:29.160 the country were always Southern elites, even though the South 0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:32.840 was generally impoverished, and even to this day, the southeast 0:26:32.880 --> 0:26:36.639 of the US bears the marks of underdevelopment in terms 0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:40.760 of numerous indicators of well being, rates of interpersonal violence, 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:42.040 early death, all this kind of stuff. 0:26:42.520 --> 0:26:45.639 What did industrial policy which again I know they didn't 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:48.320 call it that at the time, but like to Hamilton, 0:26:49.000 --> 0:26:51.480 what did it look like? Specifically, what should the federal 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:55.320 government be empowered to do? How should it make those decisions? Like, okay, 0:26:55.359 --> 0:26:59.560 it's all philosophically, he criticized Edwin Smith. He saw reasons 0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:01.840 on the around why there needed to be a strong 0:27:01.920 --> 0:27:04.840 state develop that. What does that look like in practice 0:27:04.960 --> 0:27:07.600 in terms of actual policy choices made by the government 0:27:07.840 --> 0:27:09.040 to foster these industries. 0:27:09.359 --> 0:27:11.800 Well, all that is laid out in the Report on 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:15.159 the subjects of Manufacturers, and he calls the things that 0:27:15.200 --> 0:27:18.280 the federal government should do the means proper. It should 0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:20.520 also be said that the Report on Manufacturers is the 0:27:20.600 --> 0:27:24.520 first time the word capitalists is used in the English language. 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:26.800 I was amazed to read that, So you said, the 0:27:26.880 --> 0:27:30.400 first published mention of the word capitalists. 0:27:29.840 --> 0:27:32.399 As far as I can tell, Yeah, it had been 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:34.360 used in French earlier, but that was the first time 0:27:34.520 --> 0:27:39.560 it's in English. So the means proper for Hamilton involve tariffs, 0:27:40.720 --> 0:27:45.920 prohibitive taxes on imports so as to defend infant industries 0:27:46.040 --> 0:27:49.440 as they would later be called. Hamilton calls them infant manufacturers, 0:27:50.320 --> 0:27:55.840 but also drawbacks from those tariffs subsidies for specific firms 0:27:56.400 --> 0:28:01.800 that need help, Bans on exports of strategic raw materials, 0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:08.560 investment in physical infrastructure, investment in planning and in R 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:12.960 and D, research and development, and general education. And ultimately 0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:15.879 he wanted to have a planning board, something like the 0:28:16.040 --> 0:28:21.439 Japanese Ministry of Industry and Technology. That never came to truition, 0:28:21.640 --> 0:28:25.280 but he lays out in tremendous detail basically the means 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:30.280 proper this toolbox for economic planning, and the standard story 0:28:30.400 --> 0:28:32.399 is that it was shot down. He even opens the 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:36.000 doors the idea of public ownership. He also more well known, 0:28:36.040 --> 0:28:40.600 of course, and before pitching the manufacturing plan, he creates 0:28:40.720 --> 0:28:43.880 the credit system. Right, He creates the first Bank of 0:28:43.920 --> 0:28:47.320 the United States, and the standard story is that, well 0:28:47.800 --> 0:28:50.880 it came to nothing, but actually a bunch of it 0:28:51.000 --> 0:28:53.240 was passed, and over time, more and more of what 0:28:53.520 --> 0:28:56.959 Hamilton outlined in the Reporter Manufacturers is implemented, and it's 0:28:57.040 --> 0:29:02.040 often implemented in moments of crises, because frequently what happens 0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:06.160 is the free marketeers win the argument there isn't sufficient taxation, 0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:10.800 there isn't sufficient regulation, and then there's an economic crash 0:29:10.920 --> 0:29:13.920 and a crisis in which planning is sort of spontaneously 0:29:14.280 --> 0:29:17.280 summoned in to clean up the mess. So in the 0:29:17.360 --> 0:29:20.200 long run, the report on the subject of manufacturers really 0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:25.360 does triumph and does guide American industrialization and was also 0:29:25.800 --> 0:29:29.240 very influential on other industrialization processes. 0:29:44.680 --> 0:29:49.600 Can you talk about the relationship between Hamilton's vision of 0:29:50.120 --> 0:29:53.880 industrial policy and again he doesn't use that term, but 0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:59.040 the means proper and I guess how it's financed because 0:29:59.200 --> 0:30:02.120 he seems to make And obviously this is where I 0:30:02.240 --> 0:30:04.080 think a lot of what we're seeing from the Biden 0:30:04.120 --> 0:30:06.840 administration now tends to get a little bit controversial because 0:30:06.880 --> 0:30:09.400 people say like, oh, well, we're building all this stuff. 0:30:09.440 --> 0:30:13.040 But also the public debt has absolutely exploded. What did 0:30:13.120 --> 0:30:16.080 Hamilton say about that aspect of it? And one thing 0:30:16.160 --> 0:30:18.880 that I was kind of thinking is he talks, or 0:30:18.920 --> 0:30:22.360 he seems to talk a lot about external financing, so 0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:28.360 building up state credibility in order to convince creditors to 0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:31.000 give you money so that you can fund all these projects. 0:30:31.680 --> 0:30:35.120 And when I think about that, in addition to some 0:30:35.280 --> 0:30:39.000 of the tariffs and bounties and subsidies that he was 0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:42.600 talking about, I don't want to say beggar thy neighbor policies, 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.480 but like you start to think about, well, why would 0:30:45.520 --> 0:30:50.800 these other countries fund American development? And also can everyone 0:30:51.000 --> 0:30:55.080 pursue these type of policies all at once? Can everyone 0:30:55.280 --> 0:30:58.640 draw on external debt in order to develop their own economies? 0:30:59.680 --> 0:31:02.240 Well, taking the first part first, so what Hamilton does 0:31:02.480 --> 0:31:05.680 is all the states have debt, and so when he 0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:10.120 is Treasury secretary, he's the first Treasury secretaryunder Washington, he 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:14.000 pursues assumption of the state debts, as it's called, so 0:31:14.120 --> 0:31:16.920 that the federal government will buy up at face value 0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:19.800 all these state debts, which will help reinflate with the 0:31:19.840 --> 0:31:22.360 state economies and liberate the state governments from this debt. 0:31:22.440 --> 0:31:25.800 But in exchange, the states have to hand over their 0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:30.240 western land claims, and many states didn't have a western boundary. 0:31:30.240 --> 0:31:32.480 It was just like, and you know the western boundary. 0:31:32.160 --> 0:31:34.240 Of Virginia is it's somewhere in that direction. 0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:36.080 Yeah, we haven't been to the Pacific yet, but it's 0:31:36.160 --> 0:31:37.760 like out there as far as we go. I didn't 0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:40.920 realize that. Yeah, And so getting all of that land 0:31:41.200 --> 0:31:44.360 and federalizing it is also very important part of the 0:31:44.400 --> 0:31:49.560 toolbox for American industrialization. So the way Hamilton pays for 0:31:49.640 --> 0:31:52.920 the debt is by taking a loan in Europe and 0:31:53.040 --> 0:31:57.560 he offers four percent interests when most European debt is 0:31:57.800 --> 0:32:01.640 offering three percent interest And there's a debate at the 0:32:01.680 --> 0:32:03.280 time about whether or not the debt should just be 0:32:03.760 --> 0:32:05.320 paid off, and Hamilton says, no, no, we. 0:32:05.400 --> 0:32:07.560 Need to You know, this is a roll it over. 0:32:07.840 --> 0:32:09.200 Essentially, you want to keep borrowing. 0:32:09.400 --> 0:32:12.840 Yeah, what he calls a funded debt. So this is 0:32:13.160 --> 0:32:16.080 what happens. And part of this is also about keeping 0:32:16.200 --> 0:32:20.000 your enemies close. He doesn't want the speculator class to 0:32:20.240 --> 0:32:22.640 turn on the state and attack it and undermine it. 0:32:22.880 --> 0:32:26.160 He wants to deal them in. And critics say, oh, well, 0:32:26.200 --> 0:32:28.680 see he was just a servant of these elites, and 0:32:28.760 --> 0:32:31.800 it's like, well, yeah, he was, you know, helping their interests. 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:35.160 But he also was concerned very pragmatically about having this 0:32:35.280 --> 0:32:37.760 class of speculators turn against the state, and so he 0:32:37.880 --> 0:32:42.520 wanted them to be committed to state stability, because I 0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:45.480 should say he's very explicit about the risk of the 0:32:45.560 --> 0:32:50.120 country fragmenting and falling part and disintegrating into civil war, 0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:52.920 which you know it does to some extent due to 0:32:53.080 --> 0:32:55.680 the power of states. So Hamilton was very opposed to 0:32:55.760 --> 0:32:59.360 state power anyway, so that's part of how he funds it. 0:32:59.440 --> 0:33:03.400 And then also so prior to the Washington administration, states 0:33:03.440 --> 0:33:07.000 had their own rules and generally the tariff was around 0:33:07.080 --> 0:33:10.720 eight percent. After Hamilton's plans go through, it's about thirteen percent. 0:33:11.040 --> 0:33:14.760 The interesting thing is that the overall tax burden actually 0:33:14.880 --> 0:33:15.520 goes down. 0:33:15.880 --> 0:33:16.120 Yeah. 0:33:16.480 --> 0:33:18.640 I actually I made a note of this because I 0:33:18.640 --> 0:33:20.680 thought it was really interesting. And again, I think when 0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:25.560 people think about like public infrastructure building and industrial policy nowadays, 0:33:25.600 --> 0:33:27.760 they think like, oh, my taxes will go up. But 0:33:28.400 --> 0:33:31.840 in this particular instance, I think they fell seventy seven 0:33:31.960 --> 0:33:34.880 percent from seventeen eighty five to seventeen eighty eight. 0:33:35.400 --> 0:33:37.720 Yeah, And I mean that's partly because there wasn't this 0:33:37.880 --> 0:33:39.960 insane effort to just pay off all the debts, and 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:43.960 also because there are productive investments being made. Another crucial 0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:47.000 piece of this toolbox is actually the post office. 0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:49.920 Yeah, that was really interesting to me about this. 0:33:50.160 --> 0:33:53.520 So in the postal clause, my favorite clause in the constitution, 0:33:53.760 --> 0:33:57.360 Article one, section eight of the Constitution is very often overlooked, 0:33:57.360 --> 0:34:01.600 and that explains what the government can do. Most constitutional 0:34:01.680 --> 0:34:05.719 scholarship focuses on how the government works, the divided government 0:34:05.800 --> 0:34:08.880 different branches, but what does this government allow itself to 0:34:08.960 --> 0:34:12.279 do is rarely explored. And so Article one, section eight 0:34:12.400 --> 0:34:14.880 is where that is laid out. That's what Congress can do. 0:34:15.560 --> 0:34:19.600 And there's a debate around the postal clause. Benjamin Franklin 0:34:19.960 --> 0:34:23.120 and Hamilton and other Federalists as they were called, they 0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:26.560 wanted to empower the federal government to build canals because 0:34:27.160 --> 0:34:32.600 they needed transportation infrastructure, and that is opposed by primarily Southerners. 0:34:33.200 --> 0:34:36.520 As is later said some decades afterwards, when the question 0:34:36.600 --> 0:34:40.480 of canals, federally funded canals again comes up, Daniel Macon, 0:34:40.640 --> 0:34:44.319 a congressman from Georgia, answers a young local politician who 0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:46.279 asked him. He says, how come we're opposed to the 0:34:46.360 --> 0:34:50.120 federal funding of canals? And Macon says, if we allow 0:34:50.480 --> 0:34:54.920 Congress to fund canals, they will no sooner and with 0:34:55.080 --> 0:34:58.720 more propriety, soon be after our slaves. He doesn't say slaves, 0:34:58.960 --> 0:35:02.440 you know, some euphemism. So there was again this concern. 0:35:02.760 --> 0:35:04.640 You know, the more you empower the federal government, the 0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:08.200 greater the risk to slavery. So there is no mention 0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:10.839 of canals. However, the postal clause says that the Post 0:35:10.920 --> 0:35:13.800 Office has the right to build post roads, and that 0:35:14.000 --> 0:35:17.520 little thing roads, well, you know, by the eighteen twenties 0:35:18.000 --> 0:35:22.000 most rivers were declared post roads, and the post Office 0:35:22.000 --> 0:35:26.520 becomes a massive public works agency. We think of rivers 0:35:26.600 --> 0:35:31.160 as passive natural features, but they required enormous amounts of 0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:35.560 transformation to be economically useful, and it was the Post 0:35:35.640 --> 0:35:39.800 Office that did that, hiring contractors, for example, on the 0:35:39.880 --> 0:35:42.000 Red River which runs up through Arkansas. This is, you know, 0:35:42.120 --> 0:35:45.120 after Hamilton's time, but these are the effects of Hamilton's 0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:48.520 work playing out. There was a one hundred mile long 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:53.520 snake infested log jam called the Raft, and it blocked 0:35:53.560 --> 0:35:57.520 settlement of Arkansas and Missouri, and it was the federal government, 0:35:57.600 --> 0:35:59.640 i the Post Office that went in and cleared that. 0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:03.080 And so the Post Office built the vast majority of 0:36:03.239 --> 0:36:07.960 roads and that lower transportation costs that knit together a 0:36:08.080 --> 0:36:12.280 national economy. It also subsidized business communications and the press 0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:15.960 and an enormous amount to create a national market. 0:36:16.320 --> 0:36:19.480 That's incredibly interesting. And up until you talked about the book, 0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:22.520 I had not realized the sort of the developmental role 0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:24.560 for the Post Office. But I'm glad you said that 0:36:24.719 --> 0:36:27.160 thing about the young congressman. Why do we oppose the 0:36:27.360 --> 0:36:29.200 allowing the federal government to have this role in the 0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:32.600 building of canals? And you know, there was concerns that 0:36:32.719 --> 0:36:34.759 the abolition movement was going to rise in their way 0:36:34.760 --> 0:36:36.960 of life and their economic system was going to get 0:36:36.960 --> 0:36:39.160 destroyed by the advent of slavery. 0:36:39.480 --> 0:36:41.120 There still is a lot. 0:36:41.040 --> 0:36:44.560 Of opposition to the idea that the federal government can 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:48.440 have a productive role to play in building out infrastructure 0:36:48.560 --> 0:36:51.160 or doing whatever the equivalent is of building out a 0:36:51.200 --> 0:36:54.600 canal today. So are there deeper, strange or other sort 0:36:54.640 --> 0:36:57.680 of related ideas that you can draw between you know, 0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:02.400 the late seventeen hundreds and today, excluding slavery. Why people 0:37:02.640 --> 0:37:05.920 there's still like economic interests of like deep anxiety about 0:37:06.040 --> 0:37:08.000 the role of the federal government these things. 0:37:08.640 --> 0:37:11.600 Yeah, I think persistent throughout American history is the fear 0:37:11.680 --> 0:37:16.160 of the slippery slope by the incumbent economic elites. And 0:37:16.640 --> 0:37:20.640 if the federal government is proposing transformations of any sort, 0:37:21.120 --> 0:37:22.840 there are always gonna be some interests that are threatened 0:37:22.880 --> 0:37:25.360 by that. And the other thing is it's expensive, and 0:37:25.520 --> 0:37:28.360 so no one really wants to pay taxes, and so 0:37:28.880 --> 0:37:34.279 industries and lobbies are constantly pushing to lower taxes. And 0:37:34.400 --> 0:37:37.359 so part of the argument for that is, don't spend 0:37:37.400 --> 0:37:39.640 the money, don't do these big projects. Just give us 0:37:39.680 --> 0:37:42.480 the money. Let us keep the money. These big projects 0:37:42.520 --> 0:37:45.960 are pointless, and we handle the money better. 0:37:47.080 --> 0:37:50.680 In the few minutes remaining, can you please defend industrial 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:54.080 policy from every single criticism that has ever been made 0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:57.000 against it? No, But I am thinking back to Adam Smith, 0:37:57.640 --> 0:38:02.279 And you know, Adam Smith's argument was part one of security, 0:38:02.360 --> 0:38:06.440 the idea that trade would build relationships between countries, whereas 0:38:06.600 --> 0:38:10.640 Hamilton's argument, it seems, is centered on the development of 0:38:10.719 --> 0:38:13.560 the US the building of a strong state, and how 0:38:13.640 --> 0:38:16.200 those two are related to each other. So I guess 0:38:16.320 --> 0:38:21.520 number one, what does Hamiltonian style industrial policy actually mean 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:25.359 for trade relationships between countries and the prospects for peace. 0:38:25.760 --> 0:38:27.839 But then also can you talk a little bit about 0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:32.319 arguments about well, government spending creates unproductive capacity, or it's 0:38:32.400 --> 0:38:35.879 unfair for governments to pick winners or losers. Again, I'm 0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:38.719 asking you to basically address all the critiques of industrial 0:38:38.800 --> 0:38:41.200 policy in the few minutes we have allotted to us. 0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:42.920 Well, the first thing I would say is it's not 0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:46.160 like industrial policy always works out. There are problems with it. 0:38:46.200 --> 0:38:48.600 It's not easy to do. However, if you look at 0:38:49.280 --> 0:38:52.600 the history of industrialization in one country after another, it 0:38:52.760 --> 0:38:56.799 does raise the standard of living and it generally works, 0:38:57.280 --> 0:39:01.920 but it always involves a development list activist state. So 0:39:02.040 --> 0:39:04.759 I don't think there's any escaping that now that can 0:39:04.840 --> 0:39:08.359 be done in better or worse ways. And the US 0:39:08.480 --> 0:39:11.800 plays an important role in that. These ideas from Hamilton 0:39:11.880 --> 0:39:14.239 goes to Frederick List, who goes to Germany, who then 0:39:14.680 --> 0:39:19.480 very influential on the Meiji restoration in Japan and Japan's 0:39:19.480 --> 0:39:22.560 industrialization and on and on to today. So in terms 0:39:22.600 --> 0:39:24.399 of I mean, I think that's the most important argument 0:39:24.480 --> 0:39:27.960 is that the actual story of industrialization always involves an 0:39:28.000 --> 0:39:31.040 activist state in terms of trade. I mean Hamilton was 0:39:31.080 --> 0:39:33.719 not opposed to trade. He just didn't want to be 0:39:34.360 --> 0:39:37.840 subordinated to this dominant power for British I mean, his 0:39:38.040 --> 0:39:43.759 concern with national sovereignty and industrial development didn't come at 0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:48.520 the expense of international trade. So almost always exports also 0:39:48.600 --> 0:39:53.000 play a very important part of industrialization. Take for example, 0:39:53.040 --> 0:39:55.960 a place like Rwanda. You know, Rwanda is very explicit, 0:39:56.160 --> 0:39:58.160 very kind of Hamiltonian. They say, look, if we don't 0:39:58.239 --> 0:40:01.240 have economic growth and development, we're going to have another genocide. 0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:03.160 We've had you know, four or five whatever it is, right, 0:40:03.640 --> 0:40:06.759 And they they're heavily dependent on exporting T. They don't 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:09.600 want to not export T. But they've had conflicts with 0:40:09.719 --> 0:40:11.920 the IMF because they want to run a three percent 0:40:12.200 --> 0:40:15.920 budget deficit so that they can fund public education all 0:40:15.960 --> 0:40:18.160 the way you know, through K through twelve. And they say, look, 0:40:18.160 --> 0:40:20.520 if we don't have if our farmers are all illiterate, 0:40:20.880 --> 0:40:24.879 we can't increase productivity and we can't develop. So I'm 0:40:24.880 --> 0:40:28.480 speaking to the industrialization rather than industrial policy. Like what 0:40:28.560 --> 0:40:30.440 we're dealing with here in the US is something new, 0:40:30.480 --> 0:40:33.640 which is kind of like the question of reindustrialization. And 0:40:34.080 --> 0:40:36.400 you know that's actually a very different problem in project. 0:40:37.160 --> 0:40:39.400 The book is written to the left. 0:40:39.640 --> 0:40:43.120 What did you feel the need for like this particular 0:40:43.280 --> 0:40:45.360 audience to read this particular history. 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:49.640 Well, there's a hostility, I think to the US projects 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:53.200 on the left that is not helpful. And there's also 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:56.160 a misunderstanding of the Constitution. I mean, people right off 0:40:56.239 --> 0:41:00.200 the Constitution as a document written by slaveholders. And I 0:41:00.440 --> 0:41:02.799 was struck in getting into this, getting under the hood 0:41:03.080 --> 0:41:05.920 about how many progressive elements there are in the American 0:41:06.640 --> 0:41:10.520 constitutional tradition. And I came away from this project with 0:41:10.800 --> 0:41:13.480 a much deeper appreciation and respect for that. And I 0:41:13.560 --> 0:41:17.400 wanted to disabuse leftists who fall into these sort of 0:41:17.560 --> 0:41:21.520 fascil notions about the Constitution being bad. I disagree with that, 0:41:21.560 --> 0:41:24.719 and I think there's actually a lot of room for 0:41:25.239 --> 0:41:29.840 quote unquote progressive goals to be met through the Constitution. 0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:33.359 The general Welfare clause, which Thomas Jefferson freaked out about 0:41:33.400 --> 0:41:35.160 and he didn't like. He said, this could mean almost anything. 0:41:35.239 --> 0:41:39.480 It's like, yes, it opens the door to all types 0:41:39.640 --> 0:41:42.960 of egalitarian projects potentially. 0:41:44.040 --> 0:41:46.560 I have one more thing, which is again when I 0:41:46.600 --> 0:41:50.840 think about Hamilton's experience versus what's happening today. One of 0:41:50.880 --> 0:41:53.000 the things I think about is that, as you said, 0:41:53.400 --> 0:41:56.880 a lot of what he recommended didn't immediately come to fruition. 0:41:57.080 --> 0:42:00.840 People like Jefferson stood in the way. Nowadays, there seems 0:42:00.880 --> 0:42:03.000 to be you know, a sort of similar back and 0:42:03.120 --> 0:42:05.799 forth with in DC. But how do you build political 0:42:06.440 --> 0:42:10.360 consensus for this type of policy, because that really seems 0:42:10.400 --> 0:42:13.239 to have been the challenge for Hamilton. It happened over 0:42:13.719 --> 0:42:16.520 time to some degree, but it certainly didn't happen immediately. 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:21.320 Yeah. Yeah, you know, I don't know how you build 0:42:21.440 --> 0:42:25.040 political consensus around it. You don't do it by not 0:42:25.160 --> 0:42:30.960 admitting any fault and not having conversations. So I cannot 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:33.560 tell you how political consent can be built. 0:42:34.400 --> 0:42:35.880 You have to write a whole other book about that. 0:42:36.040 --> 0:42:38.160 Yeah, I mean, and there are you know, well, you guys, 0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:39.680 I just listened to a podcast you do with some 0:42:39.760 --> 0:42:42.600 Irish guy about you know, the EU policies. I mean, 0:42:42.640 --> 0:42:45.239 it's like, it's not like there aren't problems with these 0:42:45.280 --> 0:42:49.320 agendas and those have to be acknowledged and those blockages removed. 0:42:49.719 --> 0:42:52.080 This was gonna say, Tracy, when you said that, like Oh, 0:42:52.280 --> 0:42:55.520 it seems so quaint that people were like skeptical of 0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.760 the era of economic no trajectory. 0:42:59.040 --> 0:42:59.960 We just did this episode. 0:43:00.120 --> 0:43:03.160 No, I know, I know, I know, but like if 0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:08.520 you read the book, like the idealization of agrarianism is 0:43:08.760 --> 0:43:11.640 just like very surprising to me, especially because you think 0:43:11.719 --> 0:43:14.120 back to the late seventeen hundreds and you don't think 0:43:14.200 --> 0:43:19.120 that like subsistence farming was a particularly glamorous activity. But 0:43:19.239 --> 0:43:22.480 then again, as Christian was pointing out, there's all this 0:43:22.680 --> 0:43:26.200 like idealism and values attached to the hard work of 0:43:26.320 --> 0:43:26.960 being a farmer. 0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:31.600 Yeah, and that too, yeah, and it did provide autonomy 0:43:31.840 --> 0:43:35.480 for yeoman farmers, and so there were legitimate concerns about 0:43:35.640 --> 0:43:36.920 the loss of that autonomy. 0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:37.520 You know. 0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:42.360 One final argument for industrial planning for gument intervention is 0:43:42.400 --> 0:43:46.319 that it is as Carl Polani says, laissez fair free 0:43:46.440 --> 0:43:51.320 trade was planned, and planning is spontaneous because the pattern, 0:43:51.360 --> 0:43:54.680 again and again is that the forces that want free 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:58.479 market advocate for that, they get deregulation, they get tax cuts, 0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:03.320 and that inevitably to a crash in which the government 0:44:03.360 --> 0:44:05.759 has to step in and regulate and nationalize. And we 0:44:06.160 --> 0:44:08.759 just lived through that with two thousand and eight, right, 0:44:08.800 --> 0:44:11.920 I mean you had an entire generation of bankers and 0:44:12.080 --> 0:44:17.480 policy experts who had argued against government intervention, and when 0:44:17.600 --> 0:44:19.480 two thousand and eight came, what did they do. They 0:44:19.560 --> 0:44:23.200 basically nationalized the US banking system for a number of 0:44:23.280 --> 0:44:25.800 years and bailed the whole thing out. So another argument 0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:29.760 for industrial policy is that government intervention in the capitalist 0:44:29.800 --> 0:44:33.439 economy is inevitable. It's going to either happen ad hoc 0:44:33.560 --> 0:44:38.759 during an emergency, or it can happen consciously through democratic deliberation. 0:44:39.480 --> 0:44:42.880 Christian PRENTI, thank you so much for coming on. Everyone 0:44:43.200 --> 0:44:45.680 go read the book. And also, there are a number 0:44:45.680 --> 0:44:50.279 of just extraordinary interesting people at your department at John Jay. 0:44:50.920 --> 0:44:53.759 I'm in a band with one of the professors. I 0:44:53.840 --> 0:44:57.239 play music with your colleague, Thomas Herndon. Yeah, a number 0:44:57.280 --> 0:44:59.680 of smart people there, and it's a really interesting program. 0:44:59.480 --> 0:45:01.360 Here in New York. Great masters program. 0:45:01.520 --> 0:45:15.800 Yeah, thank you very much, Thank you, Tracy. 0:45:15.920 --> 0:45:20.719 I really enjoyed that conversation, even sitting aside sort of 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:23.719 some of the economic lessons, just sort of like revisiting 0:45:23.800 --> 0:45:26.120 some of the assumptions we make about the history of 0:45:26.200 --> 0:45:28.040 that time and what it was actually like. I find 0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:28.880 to be very useful. 0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:31.400 Yeah, you know, we didn't even really get into this, 0:45:31.520 --> 0:45:33.919 but there was also I think an instance of price 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:37.080 controls immediately after the Revolutionary War. We're going to have 0:45:37.160 --> 0:45:40.200 to do like a whole other hour on this with Christian. 0:45:40.640 --> 0:45:41.200 Yeah, we should. 0:45:41.239 --> 0:45:42.960 You know, there's another interesting thing, and I meant to 0:45:42.960 --> 0:45:46.000 ask a question about it, but I'm aware that there 0:45:46.080 --> 0:45:47.799 is a thing in America in history called the War 0:45:47.840 --> 0:45:50.480 of eighteen twelve, and I almost know nothing about it. 0:45:50.600 --> 0:45:51.440 I certainly was not. 0:45:51.719 --> 0:45:53.160 I think they set the White House on fire, for 0:45:53.360 --> 0:45:54.960 that's all I know. But in the book, there's a 0:45:55.040 --> 0:45:59.920 lot in there about the basically insufficiency of the USNSH 0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:03.959 defense at that point, born in part due to poor 0:46:04.600 --> 0:46:07.600 domestic investment that allowed us to be in a situation 0:46:07.680 --> 0:46:10.160 where the British could you destroy Washington, DC. 0:46:10.400 --> 0:46:12.719 You know, it's funny. I didn't study or hear that 0:46:12.840 --> 0:46:15.360 much about the Revolutionary War, but when I went to 0:46:15.520 --> 0:46:18.640 university in London, there sure was a lot of talk 0:46:18.880 --> 0:46:21.280 in my international history class about the War of eighteen 0:46:21.360 --> 0:46:21.680 or twelve. 0:46:22.200 --> 0:46:22.359 Yeah. 0:46:22.760 --> 0:46:25.120 I literally realized I know very little about it, and 0:46:25.160 --> 0:46:26.719 I don't think it gets talked about very much. 0:46:27.080 --> 0:46:29.440 I was waiting for you to drop the idea of 0:46:29.560 --> 0:46:32.719 Hamilton being a secret MMT. 0:46:32.600 --> 0:46:35.320 Or clearly I mean, come on, no, but it is 0:46:35.560 --> 0:46:38.040 really interesting and I you know, this idea of like 0:46:38.600 --> 0:46:40.880 that there were ways in the US Constitution, And I 0:46:40.920 --> 0:46:43.920 thought that was a really interesting point that like embedded 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:48.279 in the Constitution are these various clauses and comments or 0:46:48.360 --> 0:46:50.360 lines that really do open up a lot of like 0:46:50.920 --> 0:46:53.320 space for active economic power from the government. 0:46:53.520 --> 0:46:53.719 Yeah. 0:46:53.880 --> 0:46:57.560 I also thought the point about well not just dismissing 0:46:58.239 --> 0:47:01.320 the some of the negativities that can go with industrial 0:47:01.400 --> 0:47:04.719 policy is really important because if you're gonna you know, 0:47:05.120 --> 0:47:06.919 you can do it, you can also do it wrong 0:47:07.200 --> 0:47:10.560 to Christian's point, and there are plenty of examples throughout 0:47:10.640 --> 0:47:14.080 world history of things kind of going off the rails 0:47:14.200 --> 0:47:17.000 and stuff like that. But you need to have a 0:47:17.080 --> 0:47:20.400 reasonable and honest discussion about the pros and cons and 0:47:20.800 --> 0:47:23.279 the goals of the policy as well, what exactly you're 0:47:23.320 --> 0:47:25.920 trying to do here and what the results are that 0:47:26.000 --> 0:47:27.960 you want to see. It can't just be like throw 0:47:28.080 --> 0:47:30.400 money at every single problem. You have to have some 0:47:30.840 --> 0:47:33.400 specificity about what you're trying to achieve. 0:47:33.760 --> 0:47:36.680 Absolutely, and that's so fascinating because I knew that about 0:47:36.800 --> 0:47:40.000 like Friedrich List and the industrialization of Germany and the 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:42.280 influence that his work in Germany then had on Japan. 0:47:42.480 --> 0:47:45.480 But the fact that his work actually justin Hamilton, the 0:47:45.560 --> 0:47:47.560 fact that Hamilton was the first to write the word 0:47:47.640 --> 0:47:50.600 capitalist in the English language, pretty fascinating history. 0:47:50.760 --> 0:47:52.400 Yeah. Absolutely, shall we leave it there. 0:47:52.480 --> 0:47:53.120 Let's leave it there. 0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.120 This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. 0:47:56.239 --> 0:47:59.480 I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. 0:47:59.200 --> 0:48:01.040 And I'm joe Y and Thal you can follow me 0:48:01.160 --> 0:48:04.480 at the Stalwart. Follow our producers Carmen Rodriguez at Carman 0:48:04.600 --> 0:48:08.160 Erman Dashel Bennett at Deshbot, Kilbrooks at Kilbrooks. Thank you 0:48:08.239 --> 0:48:11.440 to our producer Moses Ondam. For more oddlotscontent, go to 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:14.120 Bloomberg dot com slash odd Lots, where you have transcripts, 0:48:14.160 --> 0:48:16.600 a blog, and a newsletter. And check out the discord 0:48:16.880 --> 0:48:19.680 discord dot gg slash odd lots where you can chat 0:48:19.800 --> 0:48:21.920 twenty four to seven with fellow listeners. 0:48:22.160 --> 0:48:24.759 And if you enjoy Oddlots, if you like it when 0:48:24.800 --> 0:48:27.840 we do these economic history episodes, then please leave us 0:48:27.960 --> 0:48:31.880 a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. And remember, 0:48:32.080 --> 0:48:34.680 if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to 0:48:34.880 --> 0:48:38.120 all of our episodes absolutely ad free. All you need 0:48:38.200 --> 0:48:41.880 to do is connect your Bloomberg account with Apple Podcasts. 0:48:42.200 --> 0:48:42.960 Thanks for listening.