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Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go

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Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts or click on

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Speaker 1: the link to our channel. In our show notes, I'm

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Speaker 1: John Cipher.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Jerry O'Shea.

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Speaker 3: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers

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Speaker 3: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around

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Speaker 3: the world, and.

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Speaker 2: Part of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries.

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Speaker 3: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the

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Speaker 3: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about as well as some of

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Speaker 3: you may not have heard.

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Speaker 2: Could they be true or are we being manipulated?

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Speaker 3: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. So our guest

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Speaker 3: today is Liz Oyer. Liz served as a pardon attorney

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Speaker 3: at the US Department of Justice. That office sits at

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Speaker 3: the center of the federal clemency system. The pardon and

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Speaker 3: commutation requests happened, and they can involve politics, public pressure,

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Speaker 3: and sometimes a lot of misinformation. Earlier in her career,

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Speaker 3: she worked in private practice, and also that more than

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Speaker 3: a decade as a federal public defender representing indigit clients

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Speaker 3: in federal corps. She studied at Georgetown and Harvard law,

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Speaker 3: but after being fired by Pam Bondi, she has spoken

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Speaker 3: out sharing thoughts on the state of our democracy. She's

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Speaker 3: here to help us separate how the clemency process actually

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Speaker 3: operates from the narratives that often grow up around it.

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Speaker 4: So welcome, Viz, glad to have you here, Thanks for

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Speaker 4: having me.

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Speaker 3: So, I really appreciate how you're engaging publicly after a

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Speaker 3: career inside. You're doing so in both an entertaining and

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Speaker 3: effective way, and you're seeking to educate the public. But

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Speaker 3: you know, as a former federal official who was proud

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Speaker 3: of his work and loved it, I know her heart

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Speaker 3: it must be to be inside now trying to figure

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Speaker 3: out how to navigate, what to do and what to

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Speaker 3: do if you leave. So what would you say to

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Speaker 3: career DOJ staff who fear retaliation if they speak openly,

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Speaker 3: or what do you tell young people looking at federal service.

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Speaker 4: That's a very timely question because it is a very

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Speaker 4: difficult time to be a civil servant to be working

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Speaker 4: in government. Demands are being put on career Justice Department

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Speaker 4: official that sometimes require them to choose between maintaining their

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Speaker 4: ethical duties that they have as lawyers and pleasing their bosses,

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Speaker 4: and that's a very challenging situation to be in. I

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Speaker 4: would say to all who are working inside the Justice

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Speaker 4: Department and really inside federal service writ large, that once

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Speaker 4: you compromise your integrity, you cannot get it back. So

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Speaker 4: you have to understand where your own personal lines are,

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Speaker 4: and at some point you have to be willing to

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Speaker 4: walk away if you're being asked to do something that

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Speaker 4: will sacrifice your own personal integrity. But I do think

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Speaker 4: there's value to trying to stay and trying to be

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Speaker 4: a force for good inside the government right now, especially

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Speaker 4: if you're able to do that without compromising your own

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Speaker 4: ethics and integrity. And there are quite a lot of

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Speaker 4: folks within the Justice Department and beyond who continue to

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Speaker 4: try to do that every day, even though the circumstances

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Speaker 4: are difficult, and I really respect and admire with those

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Speaker 4: folks are doing.

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Speaker 2: We read about them resigning or being fired every week, right,

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Speaker 2: so there's a sort of fewer and fewer of them.

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Speaker 2: So on sacrifice, Liz, So you got fired, and by

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Speaker 2: any honest account, this happened as a result of and

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Speaker 2: there's no way around it, a government conspiracy, right, I

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Speaker 2: believe you are the victim of a conspiracy, not a

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Speaker 2: conspiracy theory, and I'd like to explore that a little

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Speaker 2: bit with you. And so to kick it off, let's

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Speaker 2: let me ask you first two quick things, talk us

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Speaker 2: through real quick in the audience about the power any

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Speaker 2: president hands to either pardon or commute, you know, crimes.

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Speaker 2: And then let's see that how that plays out with

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Speaker 2: your brush with Hollywood actor Mel Gibson. And here it's unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: this is how you came to prominence. There was corruption, politics, weapons,

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Speaker 2: domestic violence against women and what can really only be

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Speaker 2: described as a conspiracy because you did stand up for

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Speaker 2: what you thought.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So the pardon in power is one of the

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Speaker 4: least understood parts of our constitution because it's so out

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Speaker 4: of sync with the rest of it, which creates this

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Speaker 4: separation of power, system of checks and balances. But the

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Speaker 4: pardon power is an outlier because it gives an absolute

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Speaker 4: power to the president to grant pardons and commutations, which

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Speaker 4: are reductions of sentence to anybody he chooses for any reason,

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Speaker 4: without the ability of any other branch of government to

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Speaker 4: intervene to stop him. So it's a very broad power

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Speaker 4: that the president possesses. Historically, the power has always been

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Speaker 4: anchored by this idea that most every president has believed

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Speaker 4: that it should be used in the public interest, that

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Speaker 4: it should be used for the public good, not for

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Speaker 4: private financial or political gain. There have been undoubtedly examples

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Speaker 4: of misuse of the pardon power by many presidents throughout history.

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Speaker 4: There was the pardon of Mark Rich by Bill Clinton,

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Speaker 4: who was a major political donor who was also a

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Speaker 4: fugitive from justice at the time, so that was a

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Speaker 4: pretty extraordinary. There was Joe Biden's pardon of his son Hunter,

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Speaker 4: which I've been critical of. So there have been these examples,

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Speaker 4: but those are the outliers, and for the most part,

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Speaker 4: most presidents have tried to use the pardon power in

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Speaker 4: most cases in a way that enhances our system of justice,

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Speaker 4: that makes it fairer, that gives second chances to people

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Speaker 4: who've really earned and deserved them. But that all came

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Speaker 4: to a screeching halt when Donald Trump came back into

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Speaker 4: office and he, on day one in office, pardoned all

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Speaker 4: of the January sixth writers. He issued a blanket pardon

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Speaker 4: to about fifteen hundred people who were involved in the

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Speaker 4: Capital insurrection and with one signature wiped out effectively for

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Speaker 4: years of work to hold those people accountable for the

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Speaker 4: crimes that they committed. And it has continued like that

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Speaker 4: with a lot of pardons being granted. Really, almost all

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Speaker 4: the pardons that he's granted have been to serve some

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Speaker 4: political or personal or financial interest of the president without

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Speaker 4: consideration of what's in the public interest. And that's where

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Speaker 4: mel Gibson comes into this story. So mel Gibson was

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Speaker 4: made an ambassador to Hollywood by Donald Trump, and you

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Speaker 4: both probably know that's not a real ambassadorship, but nevertheless,

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Speaker 4: Donald Trump gave him that title. I guess he's a

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Speaker 4: fan of Brave Heart or maybe lethal Weapon. And after

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Speaker 4: Trump was inaugurated, mel Gibson's lawyers sent a letter to

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Speaker 4: the Justice Department asking the Attorney General to reinstate mel

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Speaker 4: Gibson's right to own a gun. He lost his right

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Speaker 4: to own a gun because he was convicted of a

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Speaker 4: very serious domestic violence crime involving the mother of one

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Speaker 4: of his children, his ex And if you commit a

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Speaker 4: domestic violence crime in this country, that prohibits you, under

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Speaker 4: federal law, from owning a gun. Because it is dangerous

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Speaker 4: for people who have domestic violence histories to be armed.

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Speaker 4: It makes it much more likely that those types of

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Speaker 4: incidents will result in serious injury or even death. So

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Speaker 4: mel Gibson tried to buy a gun, according to his lawyer,

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty three, and he was denied because of

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Speaker 4: his criminal history. And he wrote a letter to the

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Speaker 4: Attorney General essentially saying, my client has made all these

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Speaker 4: famous movies, he's a friend of Donald Trump. You have

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Speaker 4: the statutory authority to give him his gun rights back,

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Speaker 4: so please do. And then I was asked to write

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Speaker 4: a memo to the Attorney General recommending that she do this,

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Speaker 4: recommending that she give mel Gibson his gun rights back,

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Speaker 4: and I wasn't willing to do it. I went back

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Speaker 4: and forth with a political appointee in the administration about

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Speaker 4: this quite a few times. I think I made it

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Speaker 4: clear that my position was not flexible on this issue,

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Speaker 4: particularly because we didn't do any of the normal investigation

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Speaker 4: that you would expect to do before you make this

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Speaker 4: type of decision. So I didn't really know anything about

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Speaker 4: mel Gibson other than what his lawyer had said and

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Speaker 4: what I had read in the media and what I'd

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Speaker 4: seen in his movies.

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Speaker 2: He not his girlfriend's teeth out he had threatened to

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Speaker 2: killer and was threatening a police officer with anti Semitic remarks.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's ques what's been reported. It's very serious stuff. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: very serious stuff. None of the hallmarks of this is

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Speaker 4: a person who should safely be able to be armed,

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Speaker 4: and there's nothing about his background that says this is

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Speaker 4: somebody who we trust can responsibly own a firearm. I

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Speaker 4: certainly didn't have enough information to be persuaded of that,

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Speaker 4: so I declined to make that recommendation. I declined the

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Speaker 4: invitation to change my mind about making that recommendation, and

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Speaker 4: within a few hours of my sort of final refusal,

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Speaker 4: I was fired from my post at the Justice Department.

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Speaker 4: I was actually in a meeting with about twenty five

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Speaker 4: officials from different DOJ offices, including some of the political

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Speaker 4: appointees who had been asking me to make this recommendation,

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Speaker 4: and a colleague came into the room and literally pulled

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Speaker 4: me out by the elbow, told me to grab my stuff,

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Speaker 4: and told me in the hallway up outside this meeting

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Speaker 4: that there were security officers back in my office waiting

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Speaker 4: to watch me pack up my things and escort me

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Speaker 4: out of the building.

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Speaker 5: Last Friday night, the Justice Department abruptly fired the US

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Speaker 5: Pardon Attorney, that's the official who is tasked with helping

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Speaker 5: presidents with their pardon power. And tonight, Lizayer says she

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Speaker 5: lost her job because she refused to recommend that mel

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Speaker 5: Gibson be allowed to buy a gun again. The actor

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Speaker 5: and a backer of the presidents, lost that gun right

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Speaker 5: after he pled no contest to a domestic violence charge

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Speaker 5: back in twenty eleven.

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Speaker 2: So they wanted you to make the recommendation so if

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Speaker 2: mel Gibson killed somebody afterwards, they would blame you, right,

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Speaker 2: rather than the person who did it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, couldn't they have just said, Okay, Liz, thanks, we'll

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Speaker 3: do it ourselves, or somebody else can do it, or

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Speaker 3: like I mean.

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Speaker 4: The irony of it is that Pamboni did it anyway,

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Speaker 4: after I was fired, she went ahead and did it,

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Speaker 4: and she didn't need my recommendation to do it, because

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Speaker 4: she has the authority to do it without my recommendation.

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Speaker 4: But they wanted me to recommend it so that it

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Speaker 4: would look like it was legitimate, so that it would

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Speaker 4: look like it was not just a political favor for

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Speaker 4: a friend of the president. It would look like it

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Speaker 4: was actually based in the sound judgment and expertise of

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Speaker 4: a career professional, not a political appointee. And that's been

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Speaker 4: the pattern throughout the conduct of this Justice Department. They're

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Speaker 4: trying to put career officials in a position where they

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Speaker 4: provide a veneer of legitimacy to decisions that are actually

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Speaker 4: purely political in nature, and that has what has resulted

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Speaker 4: in a lot of folks deciding that they can no

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Speaker 4: longer work there.

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Speaker 3: It makes you complicit. So you talked about it wasn't

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Speaker 3: the regular investigation behind that.

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Speaker 4: To pardon, It is actually really hard to get a pardon.

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Speaker 4: I would analogize it to like getting nominated for the

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Speaker 4: Supreme Court or something. Is very difficult. There are people

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Speaker 4: around the country who are seeking pardons sort of coming

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Speaker 4: from two different places. One is people who are incarcerated

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Speaker 4: who are seeking commutations of their sentence, so reduction of

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Speaker 4: a sentence of imprisonment. Of those folks are people who

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Speaker 4: were sentenced under mandatory minimum laws and are serving extremely

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Speaker 4: long sentences in some case, in some cases life sentences

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Speaker 4: for drug offenses, and they're really seeking an opportunity to

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Speaker 4: have a second chance at life in the community by

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Speaker 4: seeking a commutation. The other type of application that we

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Speaker 4: got was applications for pardons, which is essentially forgiveness from

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Speaker 4: the president, and that form of relief is typically reserved

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Speaker 4: for people who are in the community and have paid

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Speaker 4: their debts to society. They've served their entire prison sentence,

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Speaker 4: they've paid back any fines or restitution they might owe

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Speaker 4: to any victims, and they have done really extraordinary things

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Speaker 4: and demonstrated that they are worthy of forgiveness. People who

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Speaker 4: have criminal convictions sometimes suffer with collateral consequences of those

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Speaker 4: convictions for their entire life, and they can affect people

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Speaker 4: really negatively, even after they have turned their life around

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Speaker 4: completely and tried to move forward in an their direction.

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Speaker 4: One complaint that we heard a lot in these applications

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Speaker 4: is parents and grandparents would say I can't go on

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Speaker 4: a school field trip with my child or my grandchild

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Speaker 4: because my criminal conviction prohibits it. Or people had very

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Speaker 4: difficult time getting professional licensing. There are certain professions that

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Speaker 4: will exclude you from licensing if you have a criminal conviction,

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Speaker 4: like being a real estate agent or working in a

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Speaker 4: beauty salon. Lots of different things that can really impact

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Speaker 4: so we would get applications from folks around the country

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Speaker 4: who were asking for the mercy of the President, and

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Speaker 4: we very carefully vetted all of those applications, which included

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Speaker 4: reviewing a great deal of information about the applicant's history,

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Speaker 4: and in cases of those seeking a pardon, we actually

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Speaker 4: would then refer the application to the FBI before we'd

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Speaker 4: make a recommendation, and they would do a full background investigation,

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Speaker 4: which involved going out in the community and interviewing the applicant,

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Speaker 4: interviewing their neighbors, their employer, their family members, because we

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Speaker 4: really wanted to be sure that before we recommend that

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Speaker 4: the President brants someone this extraordinary form of relief that

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Speaker 4: they are deserving and they're going to use it wisely

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Speaker 4: and they're not going to go back out there and

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Speaker 4: commit more crimes. So it's a really intensive vetting process

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Speaker 4: that I would analogize to like getting a security clearance essentially.

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Speaker 3: So when you get these things and you go through them,

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Speaker 3: how many do you approve or send up the change.

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Speaker 4: It's an extremely small number. It's far less than ten percent.

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Speaker 4: I would say that we would recommend favorably, and a

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Speaker 4: small fraction of the ones recommended that actually get over

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Speaker 4: the finish line and are granted by the president.

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Speaker 2: So I just want to be clear though, a pardon

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Speaker 2: is not an exoneration. You're still guilty. It's just that

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Speaker 2: your rights may be restored or you can say you

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Speaker 2: were pardons.

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Speaker 4: That right, Yeah, that's exactly right. It's just it's forgiveness.

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Speaker 4: It's generally accepting responsibility for your crime is typically a

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Speaker 4: prerequisite to getting a pardon. Not in the current administration, but.

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Speaker 2: That's the conspiracy. But a commutation it means you don't

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Speaker 2: have to pay back the restitutions. If I were to

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Speaker 2: embezzle a million dollars and then I get sent to

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Speaker 2: jail for this, and I, you know, I take one

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Speaker 2: million dollars and donate it to certain presidential presidential campaign,

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Speaker 2: and I got a commutation, I don't have to pay

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Speaker 2: the money back anymore. Right, there's either the taxpayer or

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Speaker 2: the victims. There's just like shit out of luck? Is that?

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Speaker 2: How does that work?

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Speaker 4: Historically? That has not been the case historically commutation. Historically,

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Speaker 4: commutations have generally affected only the imprisonment portion of a sentence,

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Speaker 4: So you might get your sentence reduced and get out

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Speaker 4: of jail early, but you'd still be expected to pay

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Speaker 4: back any fines or restitution you owed. Donald Trump has

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Speaker 4: done commutations differently. He has started using commutations not only

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Speaker 4: to reduce prison sentences, but also to wipe out financial

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Speaker 4: penalties that accompany crimes, including very large sums of restitution

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Speaker 4: ode to victims of crime, people who have been defrauded

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Speaker 4: and lost mone that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: So, just to step back again, like, you know, you

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Speaker 3: worked in the Department of Justice under the Trump administration,

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Speaker 3: not for very long, but for a little while, and

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Speaker 3: you've obviously are in touch with that world. What can

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Speaker 3: you tell us about Pambondi's Department of Justice and how

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Speaker 3: it differs from previous administrations.

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Speaker 4: What has changed fundamentally is that the Department of Justice

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Speaker 4: is taking instructions from the White House and then pushing

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Speaker 4: down directives to the workforce, rather than the experts in

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Speaker 4: the Justice Department advising the Attorney General and then the

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Speaker 4: Attorney General advising the President about what types of decisions

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Speaker 4: to make. So typically the way it would work is

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Speaker 4: the Attorney General would be the expert who's telling the President,

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Speaker 4: here's what we're doing, and instead it's been completely reversed.

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Speaker 4: The decision making seems to be occurring within the White House.

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Speaker 4: Decisions are fully baked before they even reached the Attorney General,

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Speaker 4: and then she is tasked with just pushing down those

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Speaker 4: decision those decisions to the workforce. It was clear on

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Speaker 4: day one of her tenure that was how it was

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Speaker 4: going to be when she issued a flurry of memos

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Speaker 4: to the career workforce of the Justice Department. I was

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Speaker 4: still there at that time, and the most chilling memo

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Speaker 4: she sent was one that said, essentially, you are all

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Speaker 4: the president's lawyers. You are expected to implement the president's directives.

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Speaker 4: I had never thought of myself as a Department of

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Speaker 4: Justice lawyer as a lawyer for the president. That was

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Speaker 4: true under Trump, and it was true under Biden. I

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Speaker 4: believed that my role was to serve the American people,

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Speaker 4: to serve my fellow citizens in that role, and it

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Speaker 4: had never dawned on me that my job was to

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Speaker 4: serve the president, the person, the man. But that was

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Speaker 4: how Pam Bondi viewed it, and she made that very

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Speaker 4: clear to the workforce, and she has subsequently made statements

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Speaker 4: to the effect that anybody who cannot get on board

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Speaker 4: with that will be rooted out and fired.

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Speaker 3: A lot of Americans would think, hey, that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: He's the president, he should decide these things. Well, if

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Speaker 3: people have that view, what would you tell Americans of

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Speaker 3: why maybe that's dangerous. Those of us were in government understand,

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Speaker 3: and we took an oath to the Constitution and all

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Speaker 3: that type of stuff. But a lot of Americans probably think, well,

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Speaker 3: we elected, he's supposed to he's in charge, he should

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Speaker 3: do this. Could you explain why that's not necessarily the

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Speaker 3: best way for things to work.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So the Justice Department has been intentionally distanced from

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Speaker 4: the White House ever since Watergate, really because the idea

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Speaker 4: is that it's not good for decisions about law enforcement

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Speaker 4: and prosecution to be made based on politics. The Justice

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Speaker 4: Department is the largest law enforcement agency in the United

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Speaker 4: States and employees about one hundred and ten thousand people,

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Speaker 4: and most of these people, the overwhelming majority, are career

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Speaker 4: experts who are expected to follow facts and law to

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Speaker 4: where those facts in law lead them, not to initiate

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Speaker 4: prosecutions because they're politically beneficial or because someone in politics

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Speaker 4: doesn't like a particular person. The Justice Department has really

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Speaker 4: important non political responsibilities, which include protecting public safety, protecting

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Speaker 4: our national security, proactively against threats from foreign powers, and

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Speaker 4: upholding the civil rights of all Americans. Those are not

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Speaker 4: political functions, and having them treated as political functions is

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Speaker 4: actually very dangerous to all Americans. So that's the reason

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Speaker 4: that the Justice Department has tried to maintain this degree

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Speaker 4: of non political independence. And having the President interfere with

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Speaker 4: the functions of the Justice Department to achieve political ends

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Speaker 4: really puts all Americans in danger, and it also gives

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Speaker 4: the President just a tremendous amount of power that is

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Speaker 4: intended to be power reserved to all of us, the citizens,

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Speaker 4: but to concentrate them in one person is quite scary.

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Speaker 2: Not that I would believe this has anything to do

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Speaker 2: with corruption or conspiracy, but I do note that Pam

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Speaker 2: Bondi's brother Brad, has been on a winning streak since

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Speaker 2: she came in as far as his as far as

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Speaker 2: the court case is, he's been winning and what the

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Speaker 2: Justice Department decisions have been. But I'm sort of I

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Speaker 2: feel better knowing that there's an dooj Ethics director and

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Speaker 2: a Response Professional Responsibility Director and an Inspector general. Or

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Speaker 2: isn't there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So that's a great question. I'm going to answer that,

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Speaker 4: but let me start by telling a funny story about

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Speaker 4: Brad Bondi. Pam Bondi's brother. Brad is a lawyer here

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Speaker 4: in DC where I live. He practices in New York

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Speaker 4: as well, and he actually sent me a seasoned assist

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Speaker 4: letter a little while back because I posted something on

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Speaker 4: my social media highlighting the fact that a client of

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Speaker 4: Brad Bondi's had gotten a pardon from Donald Trump very

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Speaker 4: early in the second term, and the pardon actually wiped

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Speaker 4: out about six hundred million dollars in restitution that this person,

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Speaker 4: Trevor Milton Bondie's client, owed to a bunch of different

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Speaker 4: investors that he had defrauded. I pointed out that association

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Speaker 4: and Brad Bondi's lawyers actually sent me a season's assist letter,

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Speaker 4: and they cited a news article in which Trevor Milton

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Speaker 4: Bondi's client had said, Oh, yeah, Brad Bondi had nothing

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Speaker 4: to do with getting me his pardon, but he's awesome.

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Speaker 4: So he is trying very hard to cultivate this idea

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Speaker 4: that his success in the law has nothing to do

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Speaker 4: with the fact that his sister is now the Attorney General,

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Speaker 4: but his track record is pretty staggering. I don't know

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Speaker 4: any lawyer who has a track record like Brad Bondi

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Speaker 4: in litigating against the Justice Department. He has had at

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Speaker 4: least two different cases that we know of dismissed. Outright,

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Speaker 4: cases that the Justice Department was actively prosecuting just have

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Speaker 4: been dismissed under the leadership of Pam Bondi, which is

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Speaker 4: something that almost never happens in federal court. And it's

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Speaker 4: particularly striking that one of these involved a COVID nineteen fraud,

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Speaker 4: so a woman who took out who got fraudulent government

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Speaker 4: benefits under the COVID relief program. And this is something

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Speaker 4: that supposedly DOJ is very aggressively prosecuting right now. So

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Speaker 4: you know, it's smart if you can get Brad Bondi

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Speaker 4: on your case, that's a smart move to try to

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Speaker 4: get out from under those charges. And what's happening here

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Speaker 4: is something that typically the Justice Department would have all

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Speaker 4: sorts of safeguards in place to address. There are rules

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Speaker 4: about conflict of interest and refusal, which means having to

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Speaker 4: kind of remove yourself from a case so that you're

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Speaker 4: not granting any special treatment to people based on personal relationships.

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Speaker 4: Or other types of connections. But Pam Bondi has systematically

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Speaker 4: removed all of those safeguards from the Justice Department. She

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Speaker 4: has fired people who are career experts behind the scenes,

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Speaker 4: who you probably never heard of, but they play really

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Speaker 4: important roles in maintaining the day to day integrity of

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Speaker 4: the Justice Department. And that includes the career official who

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Speaker 4: is her ethics director, the person who is tasked with

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Speaker 4: enforcing those federal ethics rules. It also includes the head

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Speaker 4: of the Office of Professional Responsibility, so the person who

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Speaker 4: would adjudicate complaints about misconduct by DOJ officials. And DOJ

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Speaker 4: has lost its Inspector General, who's sort of this independent

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Speaker 4: presence who has the authority to conduct investigations into misconduct

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Speaker 4: within the department and even to recommend sanctions for that

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Speaker 4: type of conduct. So really there is nobody left to

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Speaker 4: police the corruption. And Brad Bondi is crying that he

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Speaker 4: is not getting any special treatment, but the way it

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Speaker 4: looks to the public is very troubling and it really

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Speaker 4: diminishes the credibility of the whole institution.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what a coincidence, And it doesn't sound like a

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Speaker 2: conspiracy to be at all.

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Speaker 3: Maybe you guys could create a shadow DOJ now with

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Speaker 3: all the people who've been fired and put out like

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00:23:04,264 --> 00:23:06,584
Speaker 3: to the public, how this all should work with each

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Speaker 3: one of these cases.

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Speaker 4: Well, you know, that's actually what I've really been trying

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Speaker 4: to do as a continuation of my public service, is

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Speaker 4: to keep tabs on what's going on there and call

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Speaker 4: out what is not normal. And you know, there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of legal commentary right now about what's happening in

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Speaker 4: the Justice Department, but there aren't so many people who

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Speaker 4: are really just trying to make everyday Americans who aren't

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Speaker 4: immersed in the weeds of the DOJ understand how unusual

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Speaker 4: and scary and dangerous all of this is. And that's

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Speaker 4: what I've been trying to do, just focusing on little

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Speaker 4: pieces of information that are really really troubling and that

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Speaker 4: are easy to lose track of with all the news cycle,

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Speaker 4: and trying to make folks understand why they're so alarming

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Speaker 4: and dangerous and why we really need to be seeking

431
00:23:50,264 --> 00:23:53,744
Speaker 4: accountability from the leaders of the Justice Department right now.

432
00:23:54,184 --> 00:23:57,504
Speaker 3: That's why I mean, experts often speak in this expertise,

433
00:23:57,664 --> 00:24:00,664
Speaker 3: academic speak, and it doesn't translate to normal people. So

434
00:24:00,704 --> 00:24:04,304
Speaker 3: trying to just explain the processes of our government to

435
00:24:04,664 --> 00:24:06,744
Speaker 3: our citizens. I think is a really important thing, and

436
00:24:06,784 --> 00:24:08,624
Speaker 3: I think you do that very well. But let me

437
00:24:08,624 --> 00:24:12,064
Speaker 3: ask you this. I mean, they're not happy with you

438
00:24:12,304 --> 00:24:14,984
Speaker 3: speaking publicly about these things. It makes them look bad.

439
00:24:15,544 --> 00:24:18,624
Speaker 3: And have you received threats or efforts at retribution from

440
00:24:18,624 --> 00:24:19,344
Speaker 3: the administration.

441
00:24:19,544 --> 00:24:19,824
Speaker 2: Yeah.

442
00:24:19,864 --> 00:24:22,784
Speaker 4: So there have been a series of things that have happened,

443
00:24:23,064 --> 00:24:24,984
Speaker 4: some of which I've spoken publicly about and some of

444
00:24:25,024 --> 00:24:28,624
Speaker 4: which i haven't. But the most chilling part was when

445
00:24:29,144 --> 00:24:32,464
Speaker 4: I had decided to speak up about my firing. I

446
00:24:32,544 --> 00:24:36,384
Speaker 4: was very outspoken about it from really right after it happened,

447
00:24:36,504 --> 00:24:39,184
Speaker 4: because I just have this strong sense I think of

448
00:24:39,264 --> 00:24:41,464
Speaker 4: injustice and this was an injustice to me, and it's

449
00:24:41,584 --> 00:24:45,184
Speaker 4: dangerous to fire people because they use their expertise in

450
00:24:45,224 --> 00:24:47,944
Speaker 4: the way that they're intended to. So I spoke up

451
00:24:47,944 --> 00:24:51,184
Speaker 4: about it. Todd Blanche, the Deputy Attorney General who signed

452
00:24:51,224 --> 00:24:54,104
Speaker 4: the one page memo firing me, said that I was lying.

453
00:24:54,544 --> 00:24:56,784
Speaker 4: And he didn't say, you know what I was lying about,

454
00:24:56,864 --> 00:24:59,064
Speaker 4: or provide any evidence that I was lying, but he

455
00:24:59,344 --> 00:25:03,224
Speaker 4: said that I was lying. And then I was asked

456
00:25:03,264 --> 00:25:06,944
Speaker 4: by members of Congress to testify at a spotlight hearing.

457
00:25:06,984 --> 00:25:10,224
Speaker 4: They called it about the Justice Department. I was scheduled

458
00:25:10,224 --> 00:25:13,704
Speaker 4: to testify on a Monday, and the Friday night before

459
00:25:13,744 --> 00:25:17,184
Speaker 4: my scheduled testimony, I was out with my parents and

460
00:25:17,224 --> 00:25:20,864
Speaker 4: my husband, and we were in the car driving home

461
00:25:20,904 --> 00:25:22,783
Speaker 4: from the Kennedy Center, which the last time I've been

462
00:25:22,824 --> 00:25:25,984
Speaker 4: to the Kennedy Center last March, and I got a

463
00:25:26,024 --> 00:25:27,784
Speaker 4: call on my cell phone around nine to fifteen in

464
00:25:27,824 --> 00:25:30,184
Speaker 4: the evening from a Justice Department phone number, which I

465
00:25:30,184 --> 00:25:33,224
Speaker 4: thought was unusual because they fired me a month earlier.

466
00:25:33,464 --> 00:25:38,944
Speaker 4: And it was a very kind, dedicated civil servant who

467
00:25:39,464 --> 00:25:41,744
Speaker 4: was not supposed to be calling me, but was giving

468
00:25:41,744 --> 00:25:44,783
Speaker 4: me a heads up that he had learned that there

469
00:25:44,904 --> 00:25:49,384
Speaker 4: were two armed special Deputy US Marshals on their way

470
00:25:49,424 --> 00:25:52,064
Speaker 4: to my home to deliver me a letter, and that

471
00:25:52,144 --> 00:25:56,264
Speaker 4: the letter was warning about the risks of testifying before

472
00:25:56,424 --> 00:25:59,224
Speaker 4: Congress and the legal peril that I could put myself

473
00:25:59,264 --> 00:26:03,184
Speaker 4: into if I went forward with my testimony. And I

474
00:26:03,264 --> 00:26:07,144
Speaker 4: absolutely panicked, in part because my child, who's a teenager

475
00:26:07,264 --> 00:26:10,904
Speaker 4: but still my baby, was at home alone and these

476
00:26:11,184 --> 00:26:13,263
Speaker 4: men were expected to arrive at my house at ten

477
00:26:13,264 --> 00:26:15,864
Speaker 4: o'clock at night on a Friday, and I just knew

478
00:26:15,944 --> 00:26:20,264
Speaker 4: that my child would be absolutely terrified if these armed

479
00:26:20,264 --> 00:26:22,544
Speaker 4: men showed up at the door and nobody else was home.

480
00:26:23,264 --> 00:26:25,504
Speaker 4: So this person who called was able to help me

481
00:26:25,584 --> 00:26:28,744
Speaker 4: get those men called off so that they did not

482
00:26:29,184 --> 00:26:31,464
Speaker 4: show up at my doorstep that night, and I am

483
00:26:31,464 --> 00:26:36,304
Speaker 4: incredibly grateful for that. I did end up then receiving

484
00:26:36,344 --> 00:26:38,224
Speaker 4: the letter, which was sent to me by email. I

485
00:26:38,224 --> 00:26:39,624
Speaker 4: don't know why I couldn't have just been sent to

486
00:26:39,624 --> 00:26:42,824
Speaker 4: me by email in the first place. And I then

487
00:26:42,904 --> 00:26:46,024
Speaker 4: decided after I read the letter that I needed to

488
00:26:46,104 --> 00:26:49,464
Speaker 4: find a lawyer because it seemed like the Justice Department

489
00:26:49,544 --> 00:26:53,104
Speaker 4: planned on pursuing a course of retaliation against me. And

490
00:26:53,424 --> 00:26:56,904
Speaker 4: that was another terrible experience. It was sort of right

491
00:26:56,984 --> 00:26:59,824
Speaker 4: at the height of this time when the administration was

492
00:26:59,864 --> 00:27:03,264
Speaker 4: trying to intimidate the defense bar law firms by using

493
00:27:03,304 --> 00:27:07,384
Speaker 4: these executive orders. And I spent an entire weekend, my

494
00:27:07,464 --> 00:27:09,744
Speaker 4: husband and I calling all the lawyers we know, which

495
00:27:09,784 --> 00:27:12,144
Speaker 4: is a lot. I mean, we've both been lawyers in Washington.

496
00:27:11,864 --> 00:27:12,024
Speaker 3: D C.

497
00:27:12,184 --> 00:27:15,104
Speaker 4: For over twenty years, and nobody wanted to represent me.

498
00:27:15,344 --> 00:27:18,024
Speaker 4: Nobody wanted to send a letter to Todd Blanche saying,

499
00:27:18,464 --> 00:27:21,464
Speaker 4: you know, right back at you, or nobody wanted to

500
00:27:21,464 --> 00:27:24,304
Speaker 4: sit behind me at a congressional hearing because everybody was

501
00:27:24,384 --> 00:27:27,464
Speaker 4: running scared from the administration at that point.

502
00:27:28,504 --> 00:27:30,464
Speaker 6: Miss where why don't you start us off?

503
00:27:30,904 --> 00:27:34,264
Speaker 4: Exactly one month ago, I was terminated from my job

504
00:27:34,344 --> 00:27:37,584
Speaker 4: as the Justice Department's pardon Attorney. I was handed a

505
00:27:37,584 --> 00:27:41,264
Speaker 4: three sentence memo signed by Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche,

506
00:27:41,504 --> 00:27:45,224
Speaker 4: firing me effective immediately. I had never met mister Blanche,

507
00:27:45,424 --> 00:27:49,023
Speaker 4: and I received no explanation for his decision. Perhaps the

508
00:27:49,024 --> 00:27:52,544
Speaker 4: most personally upsetting part of the story is the links

509
00:27:52,584 --> 00:27:55,023
Speaker 4: to which the leadership of the Department has gone to

510
00:27:55,344 --> 00:27:58,424
Speaker 4: prevent me from testifying here today. On Friday night, around

511
00:27:58,464 --> 00:28:01,544
Speaker 4: nine point fifteen, I learned that the Deputy Attorney General's

512
00:28:01,584 --> 00:28:06,424
Speaker 4: office had directed the Department's Security and Emergency Planning Service

513
00:28:06,584 --> 00:28:11,504
Speaker 4: to send two armed spec Deputy US Marshals to my

514
00:28:11,664 --> 00:28:15,424
Speaker 4: home to serve me with a letter. The letter was

515
00:28:15,424 --> 00:28:18,744
Speaker 4: a warning to me about the risks of testifying here today.

516
00:28:19,064 --> 00:28:21,624
Speaker 4: But I am here because I will not be bullied

517
00:28:21,784 --> 00:28:26,023
Speaker 4: into concealing the ongoing corruption and abuse of power at

518
00:28:26,024 --> 00:28:30,023
Speaker 4: the Department of Justice. DOJ is entrusted with keeping us safe,

519
00:28:30,504 --> 00:28:33,504
Speaker 4: upholding the rule of law and protecting our civil rights.

520
00:28:33,864 --> 00:28:36,624
Speaker 4: It is not a personal favor bank for the president.

521
00:28:37,104 --> 00:28:40,344
Speaker 4: It's career. I see only Democratic members here today, But

522
00:28:40,464 --> 00:28:44,184
Speaker 4: this is not a partisan issue. It should offend all

523
00:28:44,264 --> 00:28:48,944
Speaker 4: Americans that our leaders are treating public servants with a

524
00:28:49,024 --> 00:28:51,704
Speaker 4: lack of basic decency and humanity.

525
00:28:52,184 --> 00:28:55,424
Speaker 6: Thank you, Thank you for your testimonian, for the courage

526
00:28:55,544 --> 00:28:56,864
Speaker 6: you're demonstrating by being here.

527
00:28:57,904 --> 00:29:00,864
Speaker 4: So it was really just a terrible time, and honestly,

528
00:29:00,864 --> 00:29:04,464
Speaker 4: I've been just so disappointed in my fellow lawyers. There

529
00:29:04,504 --> 00:29:06,664
Speaker 4: are lots of lawyers who are doing great stuff right now,

530
00:29:06,664 --> 00:29:09,184
Speaker 4: but the legal profession as a whole has not risen

531
00:29:09,264 --> 00:29:12,384
Speaker 4: to the occasion. And it's in large part because these

532
00:29:12,464 --> 00:29:15,944
Speaker 4: law firms just capitulated and folded so early and really

533
00:29:15,984 --> 00:29:18,784
Speaker 4: set a precedent for cowardice.

534
00:29:18,424 --> 00:29:19,344
Speaker 3: A lot of professions.

535
00:29:19,344 --> 00:29:23,704
Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, yep, SOT, I want to go down a

536
00:29:23,904 --> 00:29:27,944
Speaker 2: conspiracy theory rabbit hole that I fear isn't a conspiracy theory.

537
00:29:28,624 --> 00:29:33,704
Speaker 2: Is that? So Famously, Justice Soda Mayor asked the case

538
00:29:33,704 --> 00:29:36,864
Speaker 2: not too long ago about how much immunity a president

539
00:29:37,104 --> 00:29:41,144
Speaker 2: has right for making decisions if it's execu bordy, And

540
00:29:41,184 --> 00:29:43,344
Speaker 2: the question, of course the famous question was if the

541
00:29:43,384 --> 00:29:47,584
Speaker 2: president Donald Trump or whoever whichever future president orders his

542
00:29:47,744 --> 00:29:52,224
Speaker 2: political rival to be killed by a seal team, would

543
00:29:52,264 --> 00:29:56,584
Speaker 2: that be covered. And the answer was yes, the president

544
00:29:56,624 --> 00:30:00,264
Speaker 2: would be covered, but the seal team members who committed

545
00:30:00,264 --> 00:30:05,504
Speaker 2: the murder would not. Except the president could pardon everyone

546
00:30:05,704 --> 00:30:09,024
Speaker 2: involved in the murder of his political appointee, and you

547
00:30:09,064 --> 00:30:11,584
Speaker 2: thus have the self licking ice cream cone where you

548
00:30:11,664 --> 00:30:15,024
Speaker 2: have legal judicial murder. Now is this It's a theory,

549
00:30:15,464 --> 00:30:18,224
Speaker 2: but is this a bridge too far, or at least theoretically,

550
00:30:18,344 --> 00:30:19,464
Speaker 2: is such a thing possible.

551
00:30:19,864 --> 00:30:23,704
Speaker 4: It's pretty shocking to even have to think about that scenario.

552
00:30:23,944 --> 00:30:28,424
Speaker 4: But that is a scenario that is no longer outlandish

553
00:30:28,504 --> 00:30:32,184
Speaker 4: or unrealistic thanks to the Supreme Court, and thanks to

554
00:30:32,224 --> 00:30:34,744
Speaker 4: the fact that we have a president who seems untethered

555
00:30:34,784 --> 00:30:39,184
Speaker 4: from any norms around the public interest. So yes, I

556
00:30:39,184 --> 00:30:42,704
Speaker 4: think that is possible. Another example that Justice Sotomayor raised

557
00:30:42,744 --> 00:30:45,504
Speaker 4: is could the president sell pardons? And it seems like

558
00:30:45,544 --> 00:30:49,544
Speaker 4: he actually is selling pardons. People are getting pardons based

559
00:30:49,624 --> 00:30:54,424
Speaker 4: on large financial donations to the President's personal or political

560
00:30:54,584 --> 00:30:58,544
Speaker 4: or business interests. So we've gone fully down the path

561
00:30:58,704 --> 00:31:03,224
Speaker 4: of corrupting the functions of government. To the point that

562
00:31:03,784 --> 00:31:08,024
Speaker 4: the president feels emboldened to use official power for personal

563
00:31:08,264 --> 00:31:12,464
Speaker 4: financial gain, which no other president has really been comfortable

564
00:31:12,464 --> 00:31:13,624
Speaker 4: doing so transparently.

565
00:31:23,904 --> 00:31:27,024
Speaker 3: We worked in CIA, which is a foreign intelligence organization.

566
00:31:27,064 --> 00:31:30,784
Speaker 3: It's not meant to have arrest or domestic powers whatsoever.

567
00:31:31,584 --> 00:31:33,984
Speaker 3: And I wrote a piece with a former agency lawyer,

568
00:31:34,064 --> 00:31:36,504
Speaker 3: Jim Petrilla, for the Washington Post at one point talking

569
00:31:36,544 --> 00:31:39,384
Speaker 3: about the Supreme Court immunity ruling which would allow him

570
00:31:39,424 --> 00:31:42,864
Speaker 3: to use these kind of very powerful organizations for almost

571
00:31:42,944 --> 00:31:45,344
Speaker 3: personal purposes and get away with it if you follow

572
00:31:45,544 --> 00:31:48,064
Speaker 3: this along, you know, and Jerry and I understand that

573
00:31:48,184 --> 00:31:51,664
Speaker 3: the American people, I think benefit by a well regulated,

574
00:31:51,744 --> 00:31:55,744
Speaker 3: serious intelligence service which answers to Congress and has entered

575
00:31:55,744 --> 00:31:58,424
Speaker 3: the DOJ. But given what the Supreme Court said, I

576
00:31:58,464 --> 00:32:01,704
Speaker 3: think you could see, and it happened in the past

577
00:32:01,704 --> 00:32:03,584
Speaker 3: and the fifties and other things, you could use these

578
00:32:03,624 --> 00:32:08,184
Speaker 3: powerful organizations FBI and CIA and others against the interests

579
00:32:08,184 --> 00:32:11,064
Speaker 3: of American citizens. I don't know if Americans have picked

580
00:32:11,144 --> 00:32:14,064
Speaker 3: up on this thing and how dangerous it is potentially.

581
00:32:14,344 --> 00:32:16,464
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's right. We've seen that to some

582
00:32:16,624 --> 00:32:19,464
Speaker 4: extent with the use of the National Guard. Donald Trump

583
00:32:19,544 --> 00:32:22,704
Speaker 4: has been sending out the National Guard to perform functions

584
00:32:22,784 --> 00:32:25,544
Speaker 4: that they've never been asked to perform before, and he's

585
00:32:25,584 --> 00:32:28,864
Speaker 4: really just flexing by doing this. I mean, here in Washington,

586
00:32:28,944 --> 00:32:32,304
Speaker 4: d C. We have National Guard walking around the city

587
00:32:32,544 --> 00:32:35,344
Speaker 4: picking up trash. If you go to the train station,

588
00:32:35,584 --> 00:32:38,184
Speaker 4: which I've done a few times since they arrive, they're

589
00:32:38,224 --> 00:32:41,944
Speaker 4: just standing around, hanging out. It's not clear why they're here,

590
00:32:42,024 --> 00:32:44,864
Speaker 4: but Donald Trump wants to make a show of authority

591
00:32:44,904 --> 00:32:48,664
Speaker 4: by having the National Guard stationed around the city. And

592
00:32:48,704 --> 00:32:51,424
Speaker 4: a lot of what he's doing is performative, and a

593
00:32:51,464 --> 00:32:54,024
Speaker 4: lot of what he is doing is really motivated, I

594
00:32:54,024 --> 00:32:59,344
Speaker 4: think by enriching himself and his family and strengthening his

595
00:32:59,544 --> 00:33:02,304
Speaker 4: own hold on America well.

596
00:33:02,184 --> 00:33:05,544
Speaker 3: Or in our world, sending Tulsey Gebbert to Georgia going

597
00:33:05,864 --> 00:33:09,904
Speaker 3: to look at domestic voting issues in our stead shoots.

598
00:33:09,904 --> 00:33:13,744
Speaker 3: There's nothing that would allow foreign intelligence official to get

599
00:33:13,744 --> 00:33:15,664
Speaker 3: involved in domestic things like that. I think it's you know,

600
00:33:15,664 --> 00:33:18,544
Speaker 3: it's incredibly dangerous and it just's on the news for

601
00:33:18,584 --> 00:33:19,824
Speaker 3: a day or two and that's the end of that.

602
00:33:20,464 --> 00:33:24,424
Speaker 4: Yeah, It's just such an unseerious approach to governance. And

603
00:33:24,464 --> 00:33:28,504
Speaker 4: I think Donald Trump has realized that if you just

604
00:33:28,824 --> 00:33:31,984
Speaker 4: act without really worrying about is this lawful or is

605
00:33:32,024 --> 00:33:35,424
Speaker 4: this okay, it's going to be too late probably to

606
00:33:35,504 --> 00:33:37,584
Speaker 4: undo it. By the time it gets up through the courts.

607
00:33:37,664 --> 00:33:40,584
Speaker 4: The damage is done, the effect is accomplished, and so

608
00:33:40,704 --> 00:33:43,904
Speaker 4: he's just moving forward with doing what he wants without

609
00:33:43,984 --> 00:33:47,744
Speaker 4: waiting for the type of advice that other presidents would

610
00:33:47,824 --> 00:33:50,704
Speaker 4: seek to determine in advance. If the conduct is lawful,

611
00:33:50,704 --> 00:33:52,744
Speaker 4: he's just going for it. And then you know, maybe

612
00:33:52,784 --> 00:33:54,664
Speaker 4: a few years from now the Supreme Court will weigh

613
00:33:54,704 --> 00:33:57,064
Speaker 4: in on some of these issues, and even if they

614
00:33:57,064 --> 00:33:59,384
Speaker 4: decided them against him, the damage has already done.

615
00:33:59,664 --> 00:34:02,224
Speaker 2: Wonder if you could maybe talk a little bit about

616
00:34:02,424 --> 00:34:06,184
Speaker 2: how broad the pardon power is. So just looking back

617
00:34:06,504 --> 00:34:09,904
Speaker 2: a little bit of research, that the first pardon was

618
00:34:10,264 --> 00:34:13,584
Speaker 2: seventeen ninety four, right, it is the whiskey Rebellion, But

619
00:34:13,824 --> 00:34:15,904
Speaker 2: it turns out there was a rebellion against the US

620
00:34:15,944 --> 00:34:17,984
Speaker 2: because people wanted to brew whiskey and didn't want to

621
00:34:18,024 --> 00:34:20,183
Speaker 2: pay taxes on it. But they really only impicted on

622
00:34:20,263 --> 00:34:24,303
Speaker 2: two people. And then there was Andrew Johnson after the

623
00:34:24,344 --> 00:34:27,303
Speaker 2: Civil War ended, where he did issue a pardon to

624
00:34:27,504 --> 00:34:33,984
Speaker 2: Confederate insurrections, but they had to swear an oath reswear

625
00:34:34,024 --> 00:34:36,064
Speaker 2: an oath to the United States. So it wasn't just

626
00:34:36,143 --> 00:34:39,503
Speaker 2: here you go. But to what level could Donald Trump

627
00:34:39,584 --> 00:34:43,064
Speaker 2: go out and basically pardon twenty five thousand people, anybody

628
00:34:43,064 --> 00:34:47,823
Speaker 2: who was involved in whatever criminality he decides he wants

629
00:34:47,904 --> 00:34:48,783
Speaker 2: to become involved in.

630
00:34:49,544 --> 00:34:53,703
Speaker 4: There's really only two limitations. One is that the president

631
00:34:53,743 --> 00:34:57,504
Speaker 4: cannot pardon crimes under state law, so only federal crimes

632
00:34:57,504 --> 00:35:00,423
Speaker 4: can be pardoned. However, Donald Trump has tried to push

633
00:35:00,504 --> 00:35:03,904
Speaker 4: that limit. He did grant a pardon to about seventies

634
00:35:04,183 --> 00:35:06,504
Speaker 4: I think it was seventy seven people who were involved

635
00:35:06,544 --> 00:35:10,503
Speaker 4: in efforts to overthrow the twenty twenty election, and those

636
00:35:10,544 --> 00:35:13,143
Speaker 4: were people who are being prosecuted under state laws, and

637
00:35:13,183 --> 00:35:15,424
Speaker 4: so the pardons don't have any legal effect. But he

638
00:35:15,544 --> 00:35:19,783
Speaker 4: nevertheless he issued this broad pardon proclamation. The other limitation

639
00:35:20,024 --> 00:35:23,104
Speaker 4: is that you can't pardon future crimes. So on his

640
00:35:23,143 --> 00:35:26,544
Speaker 4: way out the door, Donald Trump could pardon everybody in

641
00:35:26,584 --> 00:35:29,703
Speaker 4: his administration for every federal crime they may have committed

642
00:35:29,824 --> 00:35:32,464
Speaker 4: up until the last day of his presidency. He can't

643
00:35:32,504 --> 00:35:36,224
Speaker 4: pardon them for conduct that occurs after that. But he could,

644
00:35:36,304 --> 00:35:39,824
Speaker 4: and I think very likely will grant very broad pardons

645
00:35:39,864 --> 00:35:43,944
Speaker 4: to those in his administration who have done his bidding,

646
00:35:43,984 --> 00:35:47,143
Speaker 4: his henchmen essentially, and it would not surprise me in

647
00:35:47,183 --> 00:35:49,824
Speaker 4: the least if he already has some of those pardons

648
00:35:49,864 --> 00:35:52,584
Speaker 4: stashed away in a desk drawer with his signature on it,

649
00:35:52,864 --> 00:35:55,984
Speaker 4: just in case something happens to him before he leaves office,

650
00:35:56,024 --> 00:35:58,464
Speaker 4: because there are some people in there, like the Stephen

651
00:35:58,504 --> 00:36:00,263
Speaker 4: Miller's of the world, who are probably going to need

652
00:36:00,263 --> 00:36:03,943
Speaker 4: those pardons, and Donald Trump may have already written them out.

653
00:36:04,464 --> 00:36:06,863
Speaker 4: This issue came up in the context of some of

654
00:36:06,864 --> 00:36:09,143
Speaker 4: the yeah, written.

655
00:36:08,904 --> 00:36:11,703
Speaker 2: Them out, meaning he's already done it because what, let's

656
00:36:11,864 --> 00:36:15,743
Speaker 2: just god heaven offend again, he drops over tomorrow and

657
00:36:16,104 --> 00:36:18,743
Speaker 2: up to wherever he is, those people, they're out of luck,

658
00:36:18,824 --> 00:36:21,104
Speaker 2: right unless he's already given the part. If he were to.

659
00:36:21,104 --> 00:36:24,783
Speaker 4: Drop that exactly, yes, yeah, if you were to die

660
00:36:24,944 --> 00:36:27,623
Speaker 4: before he leaves office, he couldn't sign any more pardons.

661
00:36:27,703 --> 00:36:29,544
Speaker 4: I know, I suppose a successor could come in and

662
00:36:29,584 --> 00:36:32,344
Speaker 4: sign pardons, but I think that there is a likelihood

663
00:36:32,344 --> 00:36:35,824
Speaker 4: that he's already signed pardons for members of his family

664
00:36:36,104 --> 00:36:39,383
Speaker 4: and those who are truly in his inner politically, just

665
00:36:39,424 --> 00:36:41,904
Speaker 4: in case something should happen to him. I don't know

666
00:36:42,024 --> 00:36:44,584
Speaker 4: for a fact, and maybe that's the conspiracy theory in itself,

667
00:36:44,584 --> 00:36:47,463
Speaker 4: but I think that's possible. The other context in which

668
00:36:47,504 --> 00:36:51,024
Speaker 4: this is troublingly arisen is the conduct of ICE officers.

669
00:36:51,143 --> 00:36:54,624
Speaker 4: We saw two very high profile incidents in which ICE

670
00:36:54,703 --> 00:36:58,663
Speaker 4: agents killed American citizen and we saw Stephen Miller and

671
00:36:58,743 --> 00:37:01,303
Speaker 4: Jade Vance go on television and say these agents have

672
00:37:01,424 --> 00:37:06,024
Speaker 4: absolute immunity. That's not true legally, the absolute immunity idea,

673
00:37:06,424 --> 00:37:09,304
Speaker 4: but it could refer to the fact that the president

674
00:37:09,304 --> 00:37:12,744
Speaker 4: has the authority to pardon these people for any federal

675
00:37:12,783 --> 00:37:15,863
Speaker 4: civil rights crimes they could potentially be charged with. So

676
00:37:16,223 --> 00:37:19,704
Speaker 4: one possibility is that Trump will broadly pardon ICE agents

677
00:37:19,743 --> 00:37:21,663
Speaker 4: on his way out the door. That would not be

678
00:37:21,743 --> 00:37:24,383
Speaker 4: surprising either. I'd be shocking, but it wouldn't come as

679
00:37:24,424 --> 00:37:27,504
Speaker 4: a surprise at this point. So a pardon could apply

680
00:37:27,904 --> 00:37:31,863
Speaker 4: broadly to any crimes. We actually saw that in the

681
00:37:32,584 --> 00:37:36,623
Speaker 4: pardons of the Biden family members that unfortunately were signed

682
00:37:36,623 --> 00:37:39,904
Speaker 4: at the end of the Biden administration. The president broadly

683
00:37:40,024 --> 00:37:44,064
Speaker 4: pardoned his son for any crimes up to the date

684
00:37:44,143 --> 00:37:46,223
Speaker 4: of the signing of the pardon, and then he pardoned

685
00:37:46,223 --> 00:37:51,024
Speaker 4: his siblings and their spouses for any nonviolent crimes that

686
00:37:51,064 --> 00:37:53,464
Speaker 4: they may have committed. Essentially, I believe it covered a

687
00:37:53,504 --> 00:37:57,303
Speaker 4: ten year period, and it didn't specify what crimes, just

688
00:37:57,344 --> 00:38:01,623
Speaker 4: at any crimes, which would mean any crimes under federal law.

689
00:38:01,944 --> 00:38:04,223
Speaker 3: If we're talking about what Trump might do, I can

690
00:38:04,263 --> 00:38:07,263
Speaker 3: imagine some listeners that don't pay attention to these things saying, oh,

691
00:38:07,344 --> 00:38:09,903
Speaker 3: you guys are catastrophizing. But it seems like there's been

692
00:38:09,904 --> 00:38:12,584
Speaker 3: some patterns here. So when you were explaining earlier how

693
00:38:12,584 --> 00:38:15,903
Speaker 3: the process normally works, it sounded to me like you're

694
00:38:15,904 --> 00:38:17,464
Speaker 3: suggesting that a lot of this stuff comes from the

695
00:38:17,464 --> 00:38:20,464
Speaker 3: bottom up. So their stuff is coming into the Justice Department.

696
00:38:20,703 --> 00:38:23,304
Speaker 3: You're looking at things, and you're suggesting them as possible,

697
00:38:23,783 --> 00:38:26,343
Speaker 3: the ones that passed your ten percent or whatever up

698
00:38:26,384 --> 00:38:29,183
Speaker 3: to the administration. But it sounds to me, if we're

699
00:38:29,223 --> 00:38:33,223
Speaker 3: looking for patterns of perhaps poor behavior, is that the

700
00:38:33,263 --> 00:38:35,464
Speaker 3: pardons we're seeing now are coming top down. They're like

701
00:38:35,464 --> 00:38:38,824
Speaker 3: somebody calling President Trump on the phone or a buddy

702
00:38:38,904 --> 00:38:41,703
Speaker 3: reaching into the White House and then him telling the

703
00:38:42,143 --> 00:38:43,183
Speaker 3: just Department to do it.

704
00:38:44,183 --> 00:38:48,223
Speaker 6: Last month, President Trump granted a pardon to a billionaire

705
00:38:48,344 --> 00:38:53,623
Speaker 6: felon after the felon's company enriched a Trump family business.

706
00:38:53,904 --> 00:38:57,104
Speaker 6: The pardon went to Chang Ping Chao, a Chinese born

707
00:38:57,183 --> 00:39:00,944
Speaker 6: businessman who was accused by the Justice Department of causing

708
00:39:01,064 --> 00:39:06,544
Speaker 6: quote significant harm to US national security. Chang Ping Chau

709
00:39:06,904 --> 00:39:12,743
Speaker 6: is founder of Binance, the world world's largest exchange for cryptocurrency.

710
00:39:13,183 --> 00:39:17,424
Speaker 6: In twenty twenty three, Jao and his company pled guilty

711
00:39:17,504 --> 00:39:22,183
Speaker 6: to failing to prevent money laundering on Binance. Jao is

712
00:39:22,223 --> 00:39:26,424
Speaker 6: a citizen of the United Arab Emirates in the Persian Gulf,

713
00:39:26,904 --> 00:39:31,743
Speaker 6: and in May an Emirodi Fund put two billion dollars

714
00:39:31,783 --> 00:39:36,504
Speaker 6: in Joo's Binance of all the currencies in the world.

715
00:39:37,024 --> 00:39:42,024
Speaker 6: The deal was done in World Liberty Crypto. Jao's Binance

716
00:39:42,504 --> 00:39:47,344
Speaker 6: left the two billion dollars deposited in World Liberty financial

717
00:39:47,984 --> 00:39:51,303
Speaker 6: that money could be earning interest for the Trumps and

718
00:39:51,344 --> 00:39:55,904
Speaker 6: their partners of eighty million dollars a year. The pardon

719
00:39:56,223 --> 00:39:59,864
Speaker 6: was not announced, but two days later when it leaked,

720
00:40:00,504 --> 00:40:03,983
Speaker 6: Trump didn't seem to know Jao's name. Are you talking

721
00:40:04,024 --> 00:40:05,344
Speaker 6: about the crypto person?

722
00:40:05,464 --> 00:40:05,663
Speaker 3: Yet?

723
00:40:06,344 --> 00:40:08,664
Speaker 6: A lot of people say that he wasn't guilty of anything.

724
00:40:08,703 --> 00:40:11,743
Speaker 3: He served for in jail and they say that he

725
00:40:11,824 --> 00:40:13,024
Speaker 3: was not guilty of anything.

726
00:40:13,104 --> 00:40:16,064
Speaker 2: That what he did. When you don't know much about cripton,

727
00:40:16,263 --> 00:40:18,864
Speaker 2: you know nothing about you know nothing about nothing.

728
00:40:19,864 --> 00:40:21,663
Speaker 3: Is that a normal thing? Has that happened a lot?

729
00:40:21,743 --> 00:40:23,943
Speaker 3: Or is that something that's happening much more now than.

730
00:40:23,864 --> 00:40:24,584
Speaker 2: Happened in the past.

731
00:40:24,663 --> 00:40:27,303
Speaker 4: It has become the new normal. But it was absolutely

732
00:40:27,864 --> 00:40:31,384
Speaker 4: not normal in the past for hundreds of years. But

733
00:40:31,464 --> 00:40:35,344
Speaker 4: what's happening now is pardons are being dispensed very casually

734
00:40:35,544 --> 00:40:38,863
Speaker 4: on the basis of personal or financial relationships. We saw

735
00:40:38,944 --> 00:40:43,223
Speaker 4: one incident where a woman who's a Trump owner who

736
00:40:43,304 --> 00:40:46,264
Speaker 4: lives in Palmes, Florida, paid a million dollars to attend

737
00:40:46,304 --> 00:40:49,504
Speaker 4: a dinner at Mar A Lago with the president, and

738
00:40:49,984 --> 00:40:52,384
Speaker 4: about a week later, he signed a full pardon for

739
00:40:52,544 --> 00:40:55,584
Speaker 4: her son, who had not served any of his prison sentence.

740
00:40:56,143 --> 00:40:59,544
Speaker 4: We saw another incident in where in which Trey Goudy,

741
00:40:59,623 --> 00:41:02,343
Speaker 4: the former congressman went golfing with the president, mentioned a

742
00:41:02,384 --> 00:41:04,983
Speaker 4: client of his who needed a pardon, and days later

743
00:41:05,143 --> 00:41:07,504
Speaker 4: Donald Trump gave him a full pardon, even though that

744
00:41:07,544 --> 00:41:10,944
Speaker 4: person was actually being prosecuted at that moment by Trump's

745
00:41:10,984 --> 00:41:14,904
Speaker 4: own DOJ. So these quid pro quos are really pretty

746
00:41:14,944 --> 00:41:18,823
Speaker 4: transparent right now, and that is quite unusual.

747
00:41:19,104 --> 00:41:21,984
Speaker 2: So I was wondering if you could comment on drugs.

748
00:41:22,064 --> 00:41:25,783
Speaker 2: So on the one hand, we are bombing boats and

749
00:41:26,024 --> 00:41:30,024
Speaker 2: off the coast of Venezuela, which purportedly are you know,

750
00:41:30,064 --> 00:41:32,143
Speaker 2: are faring drugs or could be faring drugs that we

751
00:41:32,183 --> 00:41:34,944
Speaker 2: have intelligence that in toason might because we're having a

752
00:41:34,984 --> 00:41:38,143
Speaker 2: war on this supposedly. But at the same time, we've

753
00:41:38,183 --> 00:41:42,783
Speaker 2: got people like Ross Ulbrich, who was convicted on the

754
00:41:42,904 --> 00:41:46,544
Speaker 2: Dark Web of enabling two hundred million dollars worth of

755
00:41:46,663 --> 00:41:50,464
Speaker 2: drugs to be sold, and he was soliciting murder for hire.

756
00:41:50,904 --> 00:41:55,064
Speaker 2: And then you've got Hernandez, the former president of Venezuela,

757
00:41:55,384 --> 00:41:59,823
Speaker 2: who responsible for four hundred tons of cocaine coming into

758
00:41:59,824 --> 00:42:00,584
Speaker 2: the United States.

759
00:42:01,783 --> 00:42:06,143
Speaker 7: Last night, Donald Trump granted me a full pardon. I

760
00:42:06,263 --> 00:42:10,984
Speaker 7: was doing life without parole and I was locked up

761
00:42:11,104 --> 00:42:15,104
Speaker 7: for more than eleven years, but you let me out.

762
00:42:15,544 --> 00:42:16,263
Speaker 7: I'm a free man.

763
00:42:16,384 --> 00:42:16,584
Speaker 2: Now.

764
00:42:17,024 --> 00:42:22,584
Speaker 7: This is a victory and it's your victory too, And

765
00:42:22,623 --> 00:42:28,304
Speaker 7: this is an important moment for everybody everywhere who loves

766
00:42:28,344 --> 00:42:30,623
Speaker 7: freedom and who cares about second chances.

767
00:42:32,024 --> 00:42:34,783
Speaker 2: He too, was pardoned for reasons that did escape me.

768
00:42:35,143 --> 00:42:37,863
Speaker 2: So when there's and I'll use the word conspiracy, but

769
00:42:38,104 --> 00:42:41,823
Speaker 2: people are conspiring. They're sitting in a room someplace, I

770
00:42:41,864 --> 00:42:44,704
Speaker 2: guess in DJ or the White House and saying couldn't

771
00:42:44,703 --> 00:42:48,024
Speaker 2: we going to pardon? And why? And how does it?

772
00:42:48,143 --> 00:42:50,223
Speaker 2: How are they making these decisions? And what is it

773
00:42:50,223 --> 00:42:52,504
Speaker 2: about drugs that on the one hand they're fine with

774
00:42:52,623 --> 00:42:55,424
Speaker 2: some of the biggest drug pushers in the United States,

775
00:42:55,743 --> 00:42:57,904
Speaker 2: you know, being set free, and on the other hand

776
00:42:58,344 --> 00:43:01,464
Speaker 2: killing two guys, yeah, in some wreckage someplace.

777
00:43:02,024 --> 00:43:05,143
Speaker 4: There is no way to reconcile it. It makes absolutely

778
00:43:05,143 --> 00:43:08,143
Speaker 4: no sense and looking for a logical explanation is a

779
00:43:08,183 --> 00:43:12,183
Speaker 4: lost cause. The we're president of Hondura's Orlando Hernandez was

780
00:43:12,223 --> 00:43:14,703
Speaker 4: serving a forty five year prison sentence. This was the

781
00:43:14,743 --> 00:43:18,464
Speaker 4: result of an investigation and prosecution that had taken more

782
00:43:18,464 --> 00:43:21,864
Speaker 4: than a decade to build, and Donald Trump just unraveled

783
00:43:21,904 --> 00:43:25,264
Speaker 4: the whole thing with a pardon for no apparent reason.

784
00:43:25,584 --> 00:43:29,503
Speaker 4: It's just absolutely stunning. It cannot be reconciled with any

785
00:43:29,584 --> 00:43:33,464
Speaker 4: common sense or logic. He seems to be operating purely

786
00:43:33,623 --> 00:43:37,224
Speaker 4: based on whim. There's always something in it for Donald Trump.

787
00:43:37,263 --> 00:43:40,143
Speaker 4: I think we've learned, and I don't know what specifically

788
00:43:40,183 --> 00:43:43,384
Speaker 4: that was in this case, but he clearly saw something

789
00:43:43,464 --> 00:43:47,424
Speaker 4: that he identified with in this corrupt elected foreign leader

790
00:43:47,464 --> 00:43:50,143
Speaker 4: who turned his country into a narco state and then

791
00:43:50,263 --> 00:43:53,584
Speaker 4: ended up being held accountable with a very lengthy prison sentence.

792
00:43:53,984 --> 00:43:55,024
Speaker 3: Can he pardon himself?

793
00:43:55,223 --> 00:43:58,544
Speaker 4: That's a legal question that nobody really knows the definitive

794
00:43:58,584 --> 00:44:02,544
Speaker 4: answer to. The Justice Department issued an opinion back in

795
00:44:02,663 --> 00:44:06,864
Speaker 4: the time of the Nixon scandal that said that the

796
00:44:06,904 --> 00:44:10,904
Speaker 4: president cannot pardon himself, But the the recommendation or the

797
00:44:11,104 --> 00:44:14,303
Speaker 4: opinion of the Justice Department is not necessarily binding. If

798
00:44:14,344 --> 00:44:16,744
Speaker 4: the Supreme Court were actually to take up the issue,

799
00:44:16,783 --> 00:44:19,303
Speaker 4: they would have the final say on that. But there's

800
00:44:19,304 --> 00:44:21,504
Speaker 4: a theory that you can't be the judge in your

801
00:44:21,504 --> 00:44:24,743
Speaker 4: own case, therefore you can't pardon yourself. However, there's no

802
00:44:24,783 --> 00:44:27,783
Speaker 4: specific limitation in the Constitution that says the president can't

803
00:44:27,783 --> 00:44:30,584
Speaker 4: pardon himself, So we don't know that for sure. Can

804
00:44:30,623 --> 00:44:33,584
Speaker 4: I ask you guys one one question about in the

805
00:44:33,584 --> 00:44:37,903
Speaker 4: Part and Space, So have you heard about this guy

806
00:44:38,143 --> 00:44:44,623
Speaker 4: John Kirra doctors Kiriaku? Okay, So there's an article that

807
00:44:44,783 --> 00:44:48,464
Speaker 4: just came out in Vanity Fair that talks about this case,

808
00:44:48,703 --> 00:44:53,464
Speaker 4: this former CIA agent John Kiriaku, who was seeking a

809
00:44:53,504 --> 00:44:58,504
Speaker 4: pardon during Trump's first presidency, and the article describes this

810
00:44:58,703 --> 00:45:02,743
Speaker 4: unbelievable encounter in which he goes to the Trump hotel

811
00:45:03,304 --> 00:45:07,623
Speaker 4: and meets with Rudy Giuliani, who had come with his

812
00:45:07,783 --> 00:45:11,064
Speaker 4: chief of staff, and he says, hey, I want to

813
00:45:11,064 --> 00:45:12,663
Speaker 4: talk to you about a pardon. I heard you're the

814
00:45:12,663 --> 00:45:15,504
Speaker 4: guy to see about pardons. And Juliani was during Trump's

815
00:45:15,504 --> 00:45:19,944
Speaker 4: first administration. And Juliani got up and went to the bathroom,

816
00:45:19,984 --> 00:45:22,263
Speaker 4: and then his chief of staff said, no, no, no, you're

817
00:45:22,263 --> 00:45:24,183
Speaker 4: not supposed to talk to Rudy about the pardons. You're

818
00:45:24,183 --> 00:45:26,064
Speaker 4: supposed to talk to me about the pardons. And then

819
00:45:26,143 --> 00:45:29,303
Speaker 4: I talked to Rudy about the pardons. And anyway, he

820
00:45:29,344 --> 00:45:31,944
Speaker 4: then proceeds to quote the guy a price. He says,

821
00:45:32,223 --> 00:45:36,743
Speaker 4: two million dollars for a pardon. And you probably know

822
00:45:36,824 --> 00:45:39,783
Speaker 4: more about Kiriaku than I do, but apparently he had

823
00:45:39,864 --> 00:45:42,944
Speaker 4: lost his seven hundred thousand dollar government pension as a

824
00:45:42,944 --> 00:45:45,904
Speaker 4: result of a criminal conviction, and it sounds like he

825
00:45:45,944 --> 00:45:48,623
Speaker 4: didn't have two million dollars. And he also apparently told

826
00:45:48,623 --> 00:45:50,544
Speaker 4: the guy, you know, why would I spend two million

827
00:45:50,584 --> 00:45:53,303
Speaker 4: dollars to try to recover my seven hundred thousand dollar

828
00:45:53,584 --> 00:45:56,544
Speaker 4: pensions see you later. And he didn't get the pardon.

829
00:45:57,143 --> 00:46:00,024
Speaker 4: But that is where this whole sort of quid pro

830
00:46:00,104 --> 00:46:03,263
Speaker 4: quo in the pardons system began during Trump's first presidency.

831
00:46:03,743 --> 00:46:06,784
Speaker 4: And you know, as former CIA agents, I'm just curious

832
00:46:06,904 --> 00:46:09,743
Speaker 4: to know if you think that does that case have

833
00:46:09,743 --> 00:46:12,144
Speaker 4: any merit? Is he somebody who deserves a pardon?

834
00:46:12,623 --> 00:46:17,223
Speaker 2: He doesn't. He's guilty, yeah, I mean he's guilty of

835
00:46:17,223 --> 00:46:19,663
Speaker 2: a number of things. And I'll just say I see

836
00:46:19,743 --> 00:46:23,064
Speaker 2: him occasionally on speaking in TikTok and things like that,

837
00:46:23,223 --> 00:46:25,304
Speaker 2: and a lot of what he's saying just isn't true,

838
00:46:25,584 --> 00:46:29,423
Speaker 2: I mean just completely untrue. He's making it up. So yeah,

839
00:46:29,504 --> 00:46:32,584
Speaker 2: I don't understand if he's delusional or whether he believes it.

840
00:46:32,623 --> 00:46:34,784
Speaker 2: But he was found guilty, and he was guilty.

841
00:46:35,064 --> 00:46:37,223
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he spent a lot of long time lying.

842
00:46:37,223 --> 00:46:40,344
Speaker 3: But he worked done stuff for RTI, the Russians. You know,

843
00:46:40,344 --> 00:46:42,463
Speaker 3: I see him on these videos on social media talking

844
00:46:42,464 --> 00:46:45,183
Speaker 3: about how when he was in Pakistan, his chief told

845
00:46:45,223 --> 00:46:47,263
Speaker 3: him to go kill someone who is following him, and

846
00:46:47,984 --> 00:46:50,263
Speaker 3: then he's making just like outrage is very easy to

847
00:46:50,263 --> 00:46:52,703
Speaker 3: follow lies. He worked in the agency from like the

848
00:46:52,743 --> 00:46:55,464
Speaker 3: mid nineties to the early two thousands or something, and

849
00:46:55,504 --> 00:46:58,743
Speaker 3: he says, I've been used in Hollywood movies. I was

850
00:46:58,743 --> 00:47:00,904
Speaker 3: someone who is very important in giving advice to like

851
00:47:00,984 --> 00:47:03,623
Speaker 3: true lies. True Lies came out like nineteen ninety three.

852
00:47:04,024 --> 00:47:06,223
Speaker 3: There's no chance that he was involved in But so

853
00:47:06,504 --> 00:47:09,223
Speaker 3: I think he's become a very delusional person and he

854
00:47:09,384 --> 00:47:12,663
Speaker 3: was in fact guilty of what he was charged with.

855
00:47:13,024 --> 00:47:15,623
Speaker 3: But I can also see he's also not in the

856
00:47:15,703 --> 00:47:18,263
Speaker 3: Hoi POLOI with enough money to play the game. That

857
00:47:18,504 --> 00:47:20,624
Speaker 3: sounds like Rudy, Julia and the other people were.

858
00:47:20,743 --> 00:47:22,903
Speaker 2: And it's not illegal to line now. I think he's

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Speaker 2: out there spreading untruth.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he's still hoping he has a shot

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Speaker 4: at a pardon.

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Speaker 3: Listen, Liz, thank you so much. We're really big fans.

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Speaker 3: We really appreciate it. For people who haven't followed Liz before,

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00:47:33,584 --> 00:47:35,904
Speaker 3: how can they find you? And what are you working

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Speaker 3: on now and moving forward?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm on all the social media channels as well

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Speaker 4: as substack as lawyer Oier. You can see my whole

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Speaker 4: website at Lawyeroier dot com. And then I'm lawyer Oyer

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00:47:46,544 --> 00:47:52,383
Speaker 4: on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, TikTok even Yes, I'm on Blue

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Speaker 4: Sky and X and I'm working on building out my

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Speaker 4: media work to try to do more educational content about

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Speaker 4: threats to the rule of law in the form of

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Speaker 4: a nonprofit organization, and I'm hoping to have that launched

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Speaker 4: very soon so that I can partner with some other

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Speaker 4: legal experts to bring my fellow citizens more information about

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Speaker 4: things that they should be keeping tabs on you.

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Speaker 2: It is genuinely a real honor to have you. I

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00:48:18,584 --> 00:48:23,183
Speaker 2: think you are brave and intrepid and one of the

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00:48:23,183 --> 00:48:25,943
Speaker 2: best examples of what some people call the deep date

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Speaker 2: and the rest of us called dedicated professionals.

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Speaker 4: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Seipher,

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Speaker 8: and Jonathan Stern.

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Speaker 1: The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

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Speaker 8: Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable

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Speaker 8: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.