WEBVTT - #263 Jason Flom with Robert Foxworth 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.440 The Innocence Network is a loose affiliation of independent innocence organizations, 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.440 and each year, members of these organizations, as well as 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:10.680 the hundreds of xanneries who they've helped free, gather for 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:14.400 the Innocence Network Conference, and our team was honored to 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.880 join them for their twenty twenty two gathering in Arizona. 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.680 On May twenty third, nineteen ninety one, in the Roxbury 0:00:23.800 --> 0:00:26.759 section of Boston, two men entered Kenneth Maclean's home to 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.960 settle a drug dispute. When he escaped, one of the 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.840 men fatually shot him in the street. Two teenage witnesses, 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:37.000 neither of whom had seen the assailant's faces, described the 0:00:37.040 --> 0:00:39.520 men as black, and that the shooter had a lock 0:00:39.600 --> 0:00:42.720 of hair growing down the nape of his neck. One 0:00:42.720 --> 0:00:45.360 of the witnesses, Derek Hobson, considered the victim to be 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.680 like an uncle to him. When he viewed a photo 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.479 lineup in front of the grieving family, only one of 0:00:50.520 --> 0:00:53.680 the men pictured, Robert Foxworth, had hair that fit Derek's 0:00:53.680 --> 0:00:56.560 description of the shooter. Robert was not in the area 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:58.840 at the time of the crime and had no connections 0:00:58.880 --> 0:01:01.560 to the victim. Was a known entity of the police 0:01:01.640 --> 0:01:04.800 as a drug dealer. After Derek tried to recant his 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:07.560 identification at a pre trial hearing, the state knew that 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:10.280 they needed to strengthen their case. They picked up a 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.880 drug dealer named Troy Logan, who had been bragging about 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.640 being the actual shooter. Logan agreed to give a statement 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:19.000 implicating Robert instead, and they were tried together along with 0:01:19.040 --> 0:01:22.640 the third man, Ronnie Christian. With Logan's statement at Derek 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.720 Hobson's coerce identification, the other men were acquitted and Robert 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.520 was sent away for life. A few years later, one 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:32.679 of Logan's co conspirators gave a detailed description of the crime, 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.600 exonerating Robert in front of members of the prosecutor's office 0:01:36.640 --> 0:01:40.400 and federal agents. Yet the fight for Robert's freedom had 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:56.480 only just begun. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 0:01:56.480 --> 0:02:03.320 wrongful Conviction. Today's episode is a searing indictment of a 0:02:03.480 --> 0:02:06.440 system that I think we all grew up thinking and 0:02:06.480 --> 0:02:09.840 hoping was better than it is. And when I say that, 0:02:09.880 --> 0:02:13.960 this is a grotesque example of just how easy it 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:18.760 is to send a man away forever on the flimsiest 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:22.680 of evidence, I came and call it evidence with a 0:02:23.000 --> 0:02:27.680 callous disregard for the rights, the hopes and dreams of 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:31.200 that individual. Has happened in Massachusetts, and we have the 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.120 man here himself in person. We're here at the Innocence 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:38.040 Network conference in Phoenix, Arizona, and all the way from Boston, 0:02:38.080 --> 0:02:40.440 Massachusetts is Robert Foxworth. 0:02:40.560 --> 0:02:43.679 So Robert, welcome, Thank you very much. I appreciate it. 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:45.840 I would say I'm sorry you're here because of what 0:02:45.880 --> 0:02:47.880 it took for you to be here, but I am 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:49.920 very happy and honored that you're here to share your 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:53.959 story and with him his attorney, Amy Belger. Amy is 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:58.160 a sole practitioner and a post conviction attorney. Welcome, thank 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.799 you for being here. Thank you, and Robert. We always 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:06.240 like to start with a little background. Where did you 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.480 grow up and did you have a happy childhood? 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:08.919 Oh? 0:03:09.000 --> 0:03:11.360 Yeah, I had a good childhood. I had her you know, 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:14.440 my dad had his own barber shop in my mom 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:15.720 was in the medical field, and. 0:03:16.320 --> 0:03:20.160 Area was good. It was a good place to grow up. 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.239 I did have a solid family like that, A lot 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:27.240 of love did. But at some point I guess I 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:32.800 took the wrong turn in life and started running the 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:35.160 streets selling drugs. 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:37.760 But you're not going to get any judgment here about 0:03:38.080 --> 0:03:41.280 drug use or dealing. I mean, we here at wrongful 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:43.640 conviction on myself personally. We believe that everyone should be 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:47.120 free to do with their own body whatever they choose, 0:03:47.160 --> 0:03:49.760 as long as they're not causing harm to other fully 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.400 self sufficient exuter o living humans and certainly using our 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:56.920 Dealing drugs is not murder, which is the crime that 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.480 we're here to discuss. However, it was drug feeling that 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.400 made you a known nenty of police. In fact, you 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:06.680 were even known to the detective in this very case, 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.360 Detective Flynn, who it's fair to say probably was not 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.960 so fond of you, which is really the only motive 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:17.360 I've been able to surmise for why you were targeted 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:19.359 for a crime you were not in the area to 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.520 even commit if you had wanted to, and had no 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.239 connection to whatsoever. I mean, did you even know the victim? 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:28.919 I never met this dude a day in his life. 0:04:29.000 --> 0:04:30.719 I would have never known if I met him. 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:33.640 Okay, so Amy, can you give us the details of 0:04:33.680 --> 0:04:36.640 this horrible scenario. I mean, it starts off with two 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:39.200 men and one driver. They pulled up to the house 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:42.400 of Kenneth MacLean. The two were let into the home 0:04:42.480 --> 0:04:45.800 by his eight year old daughter, so they may have 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:49.600 known her. And it appears that this was drug related. 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:52.400 From all that we can tell from the investigation, it 0:04:52.680 --> 0:04:57.160 was a drug related dispute between the deceased man whose 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.000 name was Kenneth McLean and the traders of this crime. 0:05:01.040 --> 0:05:03.800 And this eight year old child, you know, witnessed this 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:09.120 unfold before her eyes, and those men took vengeance on 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:14.520 her father and at first abused him in an upstairs 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:18.680 part of the house, and he escaped and came running 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:23.520 out onto the street unclothed with electrical tape near his 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:28.120 mouth and his wrists, and they shot him in broad daylight. 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.279 Yeah, it's like something out of a Tarantino movie. 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:30.480 Right. 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:33.320 They stripped this man of everything but his sweatshirt, bound 0:05:33.360 --> 0:05:36.200 him with tape, and somehow or other he was able 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.960 to break free and make a run for his very life. 0:05:40.080 --> 0:05:42.720 But of course he had very little chance as these 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.200 men were armed, and tragically he was killed. Robert, had 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.560 you been made aware of this crime? Was it big 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:49.480 news in the area. 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.839 It's from another part of It's from Roxbury, Mattapan, Dorchous 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:56.520 and rocks from Manipins and Roxbury's to the other end. 0:05:56.560 --> 0:06:00.000 But it was on the news and everyone heard about it. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.240 They made a shoulder. They had him labeled as a 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:02.880 drug dealer. 0:06:03.000 --> 0:06:07.160 So and the Boston Police put out an APB. They 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:10.440 were looking for three black men. A quote that I 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:14.920 read was one black, dark skin no further descriptions. Number 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:17.559 two black male six foot to six foot, one hundred 0:06:17.560 --> 0:06:20.080 and forty pounds, about twenty five years old, with medium 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.360 curly hair and a long curl down the center of 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.440 his hair, down the nape of his neck. That remember 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:27.920 that detail, the long curl that's going to come into 0:06:27.920 --> 0:06:32.039 play shortly. Wearing a red sweatshirt, a red shirt and 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:35.280 blue jeans. He was the one that fired the shots. 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:37.719 According to a witness, they're in a red Toyota or 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.160 red Ford Escort, four doors being operated by a dark 0:06:41.240 --> 0:06:47.359 skin black male. Now, these descriptions came from some neighborhood kids. 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.320 Yes, his name was on Derek Hobson. 0:06:50.400 --> 0:06:53.440 Their description. Initially they had said, if I'm not mistaken, 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:56.680 that they couldn't see the faces of the individuals that 0:06:56.680 --> 0:06:59.680 were running away as they were walking to go play 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.160 basketball whatever they were doing, and of course that changed 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:06.560 over time, and that should give everybody pause. And these 0:07:06.640 --> 0:07:09.280 kids were friends of the man who was murdered. 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.480 Yes, they were close friends and I think distant family 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.080 members with he said, yes. 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:16.120 He's like an uncle Tom. 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.200 Okay, So they have these descriptions and the hairstyle. How 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.320 did that play into your misidentification or, as we find 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:25.160 out later, coerced false identification. 0:07:26.120 --> 0:07:28.720 Well, my hairstyle at the time I got curly here 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.080 I used to leave it was a tail. The popular 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:33.000 hairstyle everyone was So you have a tail in the 0:07:33.040 --> 0:07:34.679 back of end that do you can braid? 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:37.560 So okay. So this was a popular hairstyle at the time. 0:07:37.880 --> 0:07:41.040 So not exactly a defining characteristic, right, It's not like 0:07:41.080 --> 0:07:44.160 a birthmark or a lazy eye or something, right, But 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:47.480 you were known to police and had that hairstyle. So 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:50.240 then a few weeks go by and then there's this 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.720 alleged tip from a confidential informant that names you along 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:54.840 with three others. 0:07:55.240 --> 0:07:58.840 The fact that it was a documented anonymous call that 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:04.280 put Robert's name in the case, we were never able 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:09.360 to source that anywhere. And now that we know what 0:08:09.440 --> 0:08:14.600 we know about the way the Boston Police detectives gathered 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.000 evidence or put a case together to convict him. You know, 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:21.560 we don't believe that ever took place. We don't believe 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.200 that phone call ever came. 0:08:23.560 --> 0:08:27.840 It seems like they were doing what was unfortunately prevalent 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:29.920 in the nineteen nineties of police departments all across this 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:32.520 country and the quote unquote tough on crime era. And 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:34.880 as in many cases, it's hard to discern what is 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.200 real and what is fabricated, as it means to another 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:41.439 end when we consider the source. Now. Nevertheless, this alleged 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:46.120 confidential informat tip seemed to contain at least some credible information. 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:49.960 It named Ronnie Christian, one of Roberts's co defendants who's 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.160 believed to have at least known the victim in this case, 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:54.959 another guy named Stevin Seeey, as well as a guy 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:58.280 named Whosy Joyner whose name will definitely come up later, 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:01.520 so remember that name. But before we got ahead of ourselves, 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.960 it was this alleged tip that police claimed at the 0:09:05.040 --> 0:09:09.120 time informed their decision to put Robert's picture into a 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:12.199 photo lineup for the fifteen year old with this Derek 0:09:12.280 --> 0:09:13.160 Hobson to view. 0:09:13.600 --> 0:09:17.440 They brought him inside the victim's house with the victim's 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.719 family and showed them pitches in me and told him 0:09:20.720 --> 0:09:22.000 that I was the one that did it. 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:24.400 You were the only one in the lineup with it. 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:28.040 Dea right, So here's the one identifying factor that the 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.160 kids seemed to be sure of, and they're going to 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:33.520 put you in there with the only thing that they 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:34.600 have to cling on to them. 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.719 And Derek was fifteen years old when they did that. 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:42.200 They pulled him off the street into a home, you know, 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:49.800 of the grieving victim's family and directed him to identify Robert. 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:54.480 We see suggestive lineups and show ups and photo arrays 0:09:54.520 --> 0:09:57.360 all the time, but this would fall into the category 0:09:57.440 --> 0:09:59.080 of extremely suggestive. 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:03.839 Fair and even the fifteen year old child witness was 0:10:04.120 --> 0:10:09.160 trying to message to the detectives, I'm only able to 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:13.440 identify the hairstyle in the beginning. He did the best 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:16.640 he could as a child to do the right thing 0:10:17.160 --> 0:10:21.720 in that situation, but as you've probably read, with future 0:10:22.040 --> 0:10:25.360 efforts by the police, his will was overborn. 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:27.880 Yeah, so Hobson was shown another photo of Rare week 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.480 or so later. This time, though, Roberts is the only 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.000 photo present from the first photo lineup, as well as 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:35.680 again being the only person in the lineup with that hairstyle, 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:39.160 so super suggestive. And we don't know anything else about 0:10:39.160 --> 0:10:42.599 this interaction, but if the first time was any indication, 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.360 never mind what we know happened later at pre trial 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.480 and at trial and what Derek later said as an adult, 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:53.400 there was probably a lot of pressure and suggestion going on, 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:56.920 and Derek hobbs that again identified Robert and you were 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:01.079 arrested on July eleventh. That's six weeks after the crime 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.440 and almost a month after Dark's initial id in front 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:05.719 of the victim's family. So it doesn't seem like they 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.000 were in a big hurry here. If they were really 0:11:08.040 --> 0:11:09.960 convinced that you were credible for at the public safety, 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.480 they might have moved a little more quickly. No, I mean, 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:14.800 I don't mean to make light of it, but it 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:18.040 seems ridiculous. Did you hear that they were looking for you? 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:20.960 Did they just bust down the door one day? 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.200 I was sitting down watching TV and boom boom, boom, 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.080 boom boom. I turned so my girl at the time 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.960 opened the door and they ran in and they said, 0:11:30.120 --> 0:11:31.360 put your hands behind it back. 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:32.839 They cuffed me and put me in the. 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:36.840 Cor and thus begins almost thirty years saga. 0:11:50.559 --> 0:11:53.360 When we went to the motion to suppress hearing and 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.400 this witness got up there and told the judge and 0:11:55.400 --> 0:11:57.880 all of them listen, it's not him. I can't all 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.120 I know is curly hearing the tail. They said, you 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:02.720 see the guy in court. He says, no, I don't. 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:05.120 So it was getting the ruling on it in the morning, 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:07.520 and I swore I was going to win that motion. 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:08.040 Yeah. 0:12:08.080 --> 0:12:11.040 He had faith that we had a criminal legal system 0:12:11.080 --> 0:12:13.280 that was going to straighten this out. You know, if 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:15.360 we can just get into court, if we just get 0:12:15.360 --> 0:12:18.520 in front of a judge and that judge understands that 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:22.839 this witness is only saying that he's recognizing a hairstyle, 0:12:23.360 --> 0:12:26.280 and you know the legal standard has been explained to 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:30.440 Robert right, that it was argued correctly to the judge right. 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:33.360 He had faith that this was going to get straightened out. 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.600 Now, I remember losing it always sat with me wrong. 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:40.199 It wasn't until Amy and John and them came along 0:12:40.640 --> 0:12:43.840 and finally told that they had a hearing without my 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:47.120 lawyers present, and it was a judge, the DA, the 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:51.320 police and the witness, and then it that's where they 0:12:51.360 --> 0:12:53.600 told him that I had asked a witness and that's 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:55.559 why he testified like he did it. 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:56.760 The motion to suppress. 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:01.160 The argument of the prosecutor was that Robert and people 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:04.760 associated with Robert were the ones who had intimidated the 0:13:04.800 --> 0:13:08.000 witness into not identifying him. 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.559 Right, I mean, talk about projection or gas lighting or 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:12.560 whatever you want to call it. And because as was 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:17.160 found out later from Derek as an adult, that's precisely 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.720 what they had been doing at this very hearing to 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:24.679 him when he was just a fifteen year old child. 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:29.360 Yes, so you had this escalating pattern of the child's 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:34.600 witness not testifying definitively against Robert, being taken out into 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:38.960 the hallway or you know, into the back and being threatened, 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:41.959 and then coming back in and you know, giving more 0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:43.199 definitive testimony. 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.000 And when I came in in a mourning motion to suppress, 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:47.480 Aaron just threw that out. 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:48.960 I knew I was going to jail in. 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.680 You know, all these years later, on our motion for 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.200 a new trial that we filed in twenty twenty, he 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.280 came forward and spoke to the die's office and explained 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.080 all of what happened from his perspective, now as a 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.720 grown man, and they credited that that this had happened, 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:10.760 that these cops did do this, and that the prosecutor, 0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:14.800 the trial prosecutor from their office engaged in this misconduct 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:16.040 as well. 0:14:16.080 --> 0:14:18.480 I mean, wow, I wish I'd felt surprised by this, 0:14:18.640 --> 0:14:21.640 but being surrounded by all of these people at the 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:24.680 Innocence Network conference, men and women with very similar stories, 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:30.320 it just puts a very exhausting and depressing byingpoint on 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.640 how common and not surprising this all is. In fact, 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:38.800 that they recognized Derek's statement as credible, now that's the 0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.720 surprising part. It shouldn't be, but it is so now 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:44.280 that they've had so much trouble with their only evidence 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:47.840 against Robert, this misidentification that Derek Copson was so desperately 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:49.920 trying to rescind, they knew that they had to gather 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.840 something else against Robert to make dis charge stick instead of, 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:56.160 you know, maybe finding the real perpetrator, like what they're 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:58.800 paid to do. And it would be funny if it 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:02.040 wasn't so sick, because that's exactly what they did. And 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:04.680 of course I'm talking about Troy Logan. They also picked 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:06.960 up Ronnie Christian who were not sure if he had 0:15:07.040 --> 0:15:09.520 any involvement, but they were picked up in September. The 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:12.520 police said that Logan identified you from a photo lineup 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:15.160 and gave a statement, and according to Logan, you accompanied 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.560 him and another man to Kenneth McLean's house to buy cope. Now, 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:22.880 you and McLean supposedly argued about a previous deal in 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:27.440 which McLean allegedly sold you a bad batch. Logan said 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:29.480 that he left when the fighting started, but that he 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.480 saw you go back inside with a gun and he 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:35.480 allegedly heard gunshots. So this all sounds like a typical 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:37.320 course or it said, to buy a statement where a 0:15:37.400 --> 0:15:40.400 witness cops to being there, right because he has to 0:15:40.680 --> 0:15:44.760 under this pressure, but not enough to incriminate himself, right, 0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.120 just a safe distance, so to speak. So I mean, 0:15:47.240 --> 0:15:49.480 did you even know this Troy Logan character? 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.440 I never met the guy, but I don't know he's 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:54.800 from He's a New York gang member from the paperwork 0:15:54.840 --> 0:15:56.720 I see. I never met him a day in my life. 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:00.480 Okay, And I was getting crazier. I mean, the state 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:05.200 filed continuance to delay your trial, Robert, because they wanted 0:16:05.240 --> 0:16:07.160 to try the three of you together. 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.680 But my whole thing is I was ready for trial. 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:13.720 They were already scheduled the trial date and Logan at 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:16.520 that point he makes a statement to him saying this that, 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:21.000 and they preclude my trial basically to try us jointly. 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:24.920 But there's other evidence that they withheld because it would 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:28.840 have killed logan statement. There's a statement from his stepfather 0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.040 who we lived with, that outline that he told the 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:33.880 stepfather that he was the one that did it. 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:37.360 So they hit that pot from. 0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:38.800 Me, Amy, looks like you're about to jump out of 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:39.200 your skin. 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.360 So we didn't get that statement from Troy Logan's stepfather 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:48.840 until twenty seventeen either, So they buried it, and they 0:16:48.880 --> 0:16:54.840 buried a lot of exculpatory evidence that incriminated Troy Logan. 0:16:55.400 --> 0:17:00.240 Right because Troy Logan's false statement that he gave to 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:04.919 the police that implicated Robert was necessary to the case. 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:06.680 This isn't even disputed. 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:07.480 Right. 0:17:08.560 --> 0:17:12.880 Much of the incriminating evidence against Troy Logan was never 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:16.280 turned over, but a portion of it, the most important, 0:17:16.400 --> 0:17:20.720 I think, was a report that the Anti Gang Violence 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:25.040 unit put together where they got information that Troy Logan 0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:28.959 was actually the shooter, and if Toy Logan was the shooter, 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.720 they're trying the case to the jury saying Robert's the shooter. 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:37.239 They have this police report saying that they have a 0:17:37.240 --> 0:17:42.840 confidential informant who has given them information, and they verified 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:47.240 the confidential informant through other information. It was considered a 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.960 reliable informant who said, you know, Troy Logan is the shooter. 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:53.920 He's bragging about it all over the streets of Dorchester. 0:17:54.560 --> 0:17:58.240 He shot Kenny McLain. And they didn't turn that over, 0:17:58.840 --> 0:18:02.840 and their motive for doing that appeared to be that 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:07.879 Troy was compromised. Troy had given them information about the 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:12.879 murder implicated Robert, and they didn't have anything on Robert 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:16.040 except the fifteen year olds with the hairstyle. So it 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:20.160 wasn't until twenty seventeen that evidence came out that they 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:20.960 had buried. 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:21.000 All of that. 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.199 Right, And when we go back to the beginning of 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:25.480 the show, when I was talking about the flimsiest of evidence, 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:29.399 like literally, there's a strand of hair, right, and not 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:33.480 a strand of hair on her microscope, just a hair style, right, 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:37.320 this was the evidence. Yes, Now let's talk about the attorneys. 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.040 So many of the people we've had on our show 0:18:39.119 --> 0:18:42.320 had attorneys that were not up to the task. And 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.520 that's being kind. But your family hired one of the 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:46.640 top guys, is that right? 0:18:46.960 --> 0:18:49.280 Yeah? And I had Willie Davis who tried me the 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:50.080 cases before, and. 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:52.639 So you had Willie Davis and then Troy Logan. You 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:56.520 had another guy named William White, correct, and then White 0:18:56.800 --> 0:18:58.879 actually joined Davis's firm. 0:18:59.080 --> 0:18:59.439 Correct. 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.880 And the judge ordered you to get a new attorney because 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.120 of this new partnership that these. 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:06.920 Guys had forged. 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:10.879 The conflict, Yeah, the conflict that that created. 0:19:10.480 --> 0:19:12.640 When they conflicted him. Ount He didn't give us back, 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.080 no money, He just recommended us to another attorney. 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:18.560 Okay, So the trial itself, there's this guy you never 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.240 laid eyes on in your life, not even from the 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.000 same city, who's out bragging all over town about having 0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:30.080 done this, and you're being put on trial with him, right. 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:32.919 Yes, they put me in one area up theirs and 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:35.320 put him in the other. They brought me down, sat 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:37.600 me at one table, Ronnie in there, and then the 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:38.840 Logan over there. 0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:42.760 And you know, ultimately that was a legal issue in 0:19:42.800 --> 0:19:46.199 a legal error, right, you know, trying Robert along with 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:47.400 Troy Logan. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:49.680 Right, since they had this statement for the Logan. Naming 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:53.239 Robert as a shooter. Admitting that into evidence would have 0:19:53.280 --> 0:19:56.719 opened Logan up to cross examination. But since he's a 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.800 co defendant, forcing him to take the standard trial would 0:19:59.800 --> 0:20:02.080 be a clear violation of his Fifth Amendment right. So 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:05.080 in order to protect everyone's right to a fair trial, 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:08.119 the prosecution came up with what they probably thought was 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:11.760 an elegant solution, but in reality it just trampled on 0:20:11.840 --> 0:20:15.399 Robert's rights and it involved using the name mister X. 0:20:16.080 --> 0:20:18.520 Oh my god, can you elaborate on that. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.840 Amy Troy Logan's statement to the police where he was 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:27.119 naming Robert, you know, as the shooter, the DA's office 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:33.159 proposed to redact Robert's name and call him mister X 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.159 in the statement, you know, for the jury. So the 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.720 statement reads, Troy Logan said that, you know, mister X 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:45.200 took a gun, went upstairs shot this victim. Mister X 0:20:45.359 --> 0:20:48.000 is the one who did this, and Troy Logan saw it. 0:20:48.080 --> 0:20:52.840 And then the jury was told mister X is not 0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:58.160 Ronnie Christian. So by deduction, okay, there's only one other 0:20:58.240 --> 0:21:01.719 person mister X can be. And their theory of the 0:21:01.760 --> 0:21:06.080 case is Robert is the shooter. So the judicial system 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:08.960 decides that a fair trial for Robert is well, we're 0:21:08.960 --> 0:21:11.479 going to redact your name out and we're going to 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:15.440 say mister X, so we don't violate your rights. Right, 0:21:16.119 --> 0:21:19.720 But there isn't anybody else possibly you could ever deduce 0:21:19.880 --> 0:21:23.120 was mister X except for Robert, And at the time 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:28.240 Robert was tried that was considered a fair trial. There 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:34.080 wasn't any kind of care and attention systemically to Robert's rights. 0:21:34.720 --> 0:21:38.560 Robert didn't have the advocacy and the representation at the 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.920 time of trial that he should have had. But ultimately 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:44.800 the argument was put to the judge who certainly knew 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:47.160 what the law was and didn't do the right thing. 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:51.359 So the trial itself, how long did it last? 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:52.800 About a week? 0:21:53.119 --> 0:21:55.520