1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: The Innocence Network is a loose affiliation of independent innocence organizations, 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: and each year, members of these organizations, as well as 3 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: the hundreds of xanneries who they've helped free, gather for 4 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: the Innocence Network Conference, and our team was honored to 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: join them for their twenty twenty two gathering in Arizona. 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,680 Speaker 1: On May twenty third, nineteen ninety one, in the Roxbury 7 00:00:23,800 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: section of Boston, two men entered Kenneth Maclean's home to 8 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: settle a drug dispute. When he escaped, one of the 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,840 Speaker 1: men fatually shot him in the street. Two teenage witnesses, 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: neither of whom had seen the assailant's faces, described the 11 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 1: men as black, and that the shooter had a lock 12 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: of hair growing down the nape of his neck. One 13 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: of the witnesses, Derek Hobson, considered the victim to be 14 00:00:45,479 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: like an uncle to him. When he viewed a photo 15 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: lineup in front of the grieving family, only one of 16 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 1: the men pictured, Robert Foxworth, had hair that fit Derek's 17 00:00:53,680 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: description of the shooter. Robert was not in the area 18 00:00:56,600 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: at the time of the crime and had no connections 19 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:01,560 Speaker 1: to the victim. Was a known entity of the police 20 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: as a drug dealer. After Derek tried to recant his 21 00:01:04,880 --> 00:01:07,560 Speaker 1: identification at a pre trial hearing, the state knew that 22 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: they needed to strengthen their case. They picked up a 23 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,880 Speaker 1: drug dealer named Troy Logan, who had been bragging about 24 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: being the actual shooter. Logan agreed to give a statement 25 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: implicating Robert instead, and they were tried together along with 26 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 1: the third man, Ronnie Christian. With Logan's statement at Derek 27 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 1: Hobson's coerce identification, the other men were acquitted and Robert 28 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: was sent away for life. A few years later, one 29 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: of Logan's co conspirators gave a detailed description of the crime, 30 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: exonerating Robert in front of members of the prosecutor's office 31 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:40,400 Speaker 1: and federal agents. Yet the fight for Robert's freedom had 32 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: only just begun. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 33 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:03,320 Speaker 1: wrongful Conviction. Today's episode is a searing indictment of a 34 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,440 Speaker 1: system that I think we all grew up thinking and 35 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: hoping was better than it is. And when I say that, 36 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: this is a grotesque example of just how easy it 37 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,760 Speaker 1: is to send a man away forever on the flimsiest 38 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 1: of evidence, I came and call it evidence with a 39 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:27,680 Speaker 1: callous disregard for the rights, the hopes and dreams of 40 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: that individual. Has happened in Massachusetts, and we have the 41 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 1: man here himself in person. We're here at the Innocence 42 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:38,040 Speaker 1: Network conference in Phoenix, Arizona, and all the way from Boston, 43 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: Massachusetts is Robert Foxworth. 44 00:02:40,560 --> 00:02:43,679 Speaker 2: So Robert, welcome, Thank you very much. I appreciate it. 45 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: I would say I'm sorry you're here because of what 46 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 1: it took for you to be here, but I am 47 00:02:48,000 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: very happy and honored that you're here to share your 48 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,959 Speaker 1: story and with him his attorney, Amy Belger. Amy is 49 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,160 Speaker 1: a sole practitioner and a post conviction attorney. Welcome, thank 50 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: you for being here. Thank you, and Robert. We always 51 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: like to start with a little background. Where did you 52 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: grow up and did you have a happy childhood? 53 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:08,919 Speaker 2: Oh? 54 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a good childhood. I had her you know, 55 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 3: my dad had his own barber shop in my mom 56 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 3: was in the medical field, and. 57 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 2: Area was good. It was a good place to grow up. 58 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,239 Speaker 3: I did have a solid family like that, A lot 59 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 3: of love did. But at some point I guess I 60 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 3: took the wrong turn in life and started running the 61 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 3: streets selling drugs. 62 00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 1: But you're not going to get any judgment here about 63 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: drug use or dealing. I mean, we here at wrongful 64 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: conviction on myself personally. We believe that everyone should be 65 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,120 Speaker 1: free to do with their own body whatever they choose, 66 00:03:47,160 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: as long as they're not causing harm to other fully 67 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: self sufficient exuter o living humans and certainly using our 68 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 1: Dealing drugs is not murder, which is the crime that 69 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 1: we're here to discuss. However, it was drug feeling that 70 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: made you a known nenty of police. In fact, you 71 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: were even known to the detective in this very case, 72 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: Detective Flynn, who it's fair to say probably was not 73 00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: so fond of you, which is really the only motive 74 00:04:14,000 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: I've been able to surmise for why you were targeted 75 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,359 Speaker 1: for a crime you were not in the area to 76 00:04:19,440 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 1: even commit if you had wanted to, and had no 77 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 1: connection to whatsoever. I mean, did you even know the victim? 78 00:04:25,480 --> 00:04:28,919 Speaker 3: I never met this dude a day in his life. 79 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 3: I would have never known if I met him. 80 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 1: Okay, so Amy, can you give us the details of 81 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: this horrible scenario. I mean, it starts off with two 82 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 1: men and one driver. They pulled up to the house 83 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: of Kenneth MacLean. The two were let into the home 84 00:04:42,480 --> 00:04:45,800 Speaker 1: by his eight year old daughter, so they may have 85 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:49,600 Speaker 1: known her. And it appears that this was drug related. 86 00:04:49,560 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 4: From all that we can tell from the investigation, it 87 00:04:52,680 --> 00:04:57,160 Speaker 4: was a drug related dispute between the deceased man whose 88 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 4: name was Kenneth McLean and the traders of this crime. 89 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 4: And this eight year old child, you know, witnessed this 90 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 4: unfold before her eyes, and those men took vengeance on 91 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 4: her father and at first abused him in an upstairs 92 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 4: part of the house, and he escaped and came running 93 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:23,520 Speaker 4: out onto the street unclothed with electrical tape near his 94 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 4: mouth and his wrists, and they shot him in broad daylight. 95 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like something out of a Tarantino movie. 96 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: Right. 97 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: They stripped this man of everything but his sweatshirt, bound 98 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 1: him with tape, and somehow or other he was able 99 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 1: to break free and make a run for his very life. 100 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: But of course he had very little chance as these 101 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: men were armed, and tragically he was killed. Robert, had 102 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:48,560 Speaker 1: you been made aware of this crime? Was it big 103 00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: news in the area. 104 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 3: It's from another part of It's from Roxbury, Mattapan, Dorchous 105 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: and rocks from Manipins and Roxbury's to the other end. 106 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 3: But it was on the news and everyone heard about it. 107 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 2: They made a shoulder. They had him labeled as a 108 00:06:02,320 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: drug dealer. 109 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:07,160 Speaker 1: So and the Boston Police put out an APB. They 110 00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:10,440 Speaker 1: were looking for three black men. A quote that I 111 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: read was one black, dark skin no further descriptions. Number 112 00:06:14,960 --> 00:06:17,559 Speaker 1: two black male six foot to six foot, one hundred 113 00:06:17,560 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: and forty pounds, about twenty five years old, with medium 114 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 1: curly hair and a long curl down the center of 115 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 1: his hair, down the nape of his neck. That remember 116 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: that detail, the long curl that's going to come into 117 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:32,039 Speaker 1: play shortly. Wearing a red sweatshirt, a red shirt and 118 00:06:32,120 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: blue jeans. He was the one that fired the shots. 119 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: According to a witness, they're in a red Toyota or 120 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,160 Speaker 1: red Ford Escort, four doors being operated by a dark 121 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:47,359 Speaker 1: skin black male. Now, these descriptions came from some neighborhood kids. 122 00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 2: Yes, his name was on Derek Hobson. 123 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: Their description. Initially they had said, if I'm not mistaken, 124 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,680 Speaker 1: that they couldn't see the faces of the individuals that 125 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 1: were running away as they were walking to go play 126 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,160 Speaker 1: basketball whatever they were doing, and of course that changed 127 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: over time, and that should give everybody pause. And these 128 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,280 Speaker 1: kids were friends of the man who was murdered. 129 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 4: Yes, they were close friends and I think distant family 130 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 4: members with he said, yes. 131 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 2: He's like an uncle Tom. 132 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: Okay, So they have these descriptions and the hairstyle. How 133 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,320 Speaker 1: did that play into your misidentification or, as we find 134 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: out later, coerced false identification. 135 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: Well, my hairstyle at the time I got curly here 136 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: I used to leave it was a tail. The popular 137 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 3: hairstyle everyone was So you have a tail in the 138 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:34,679 Speaker 3: back of end that do you can braid? 139 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: So okay. So this was a popular hairstyle at the time. 140 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: So not exactly a defining characteristic, right, It's not like 141 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,160 Speaker 1: a birthmark or a lazy eye or something, right, But 142 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 1: you were known to police and had that hairstyle. So 143 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,240 Speaker 1: then a few weeks go by and then there's this 144 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 1: alleged tip from a confidential informant that names you along 145 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 1: with three others. 146 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,840 Speaker 4: The fact that it was a documented anonymous call that 147 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 4: put Robert's name in the case, we were never able 148 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 4: to source that anywhere. And now that we know what 149 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 4: we know about the way the Boston Police detectives gathered 150 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 4: evidence or put a case together to convict him. You know, 151 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 4: we don't believe that ever took place. We don't believe 152 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 4: that phone call ever came. 153 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 1: It seems like they were doing what was unfortunately prevalent 154 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: in the nineteen nineties of police departments all across this 155 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: country and the quote unquote tough on crime era. And 156 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,880 Speaker 1: as in many cases, it's hard to discern what is 157 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 1: real and what is fabricated, as it means to another 158 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 1: end when we consider the source. Now. Nevertheless, this alleged 159 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: confidential informat tip seemed to contain at least some credible information. 160 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 1: It named Ronnie Christian, one of Roberts's co defendants who's 161 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: believed to have at least known the victim in this case, 162 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,959 Speaker 1: another guy named Stevin Seeey, as well as a guy 163 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: named Whosy Joyner whose name will definitely come up later, 164 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: so remember that name. But before we got ahead of ourselves, 165 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: it was this alleged tip that police claimed at the 166 00:09:05,040 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 1: time informed their decision to put Robert's picture into a 167 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:12,199 Speaker 1: photo lineup for the fifteen year old with this Derek 168 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: Hobson to view. 169 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 3: They brought him inside the victim's house with the victim's 170 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:20,719 Speaker 3: family and showed them pitches in me and told him 171 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 3: that I was the one that did it. 172 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: You were the only one in the lineup with it. 173 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 1: Dea right, So here's the one identifying factor that the 174 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 1: kids seemed to be sure of, and they're going to 175 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: put you in there with the only thing that they 176 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: have to cling on to them. 177 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 4: And Derek was fifteen years old when they did that. 178 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:42,200 Speaker 4: They pulled him off the street into a home, you know, 179 00:09:42,240 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 4: of the grieving victim's family and directed him to identify Robert. 180 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: We see suggestive lineups and show ups and photo arrays 181 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: all the time, but this would fall into the category 182 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,080 Speaker 1: of extremely suggestive. 183 00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:03,839 Speaker 4: Fair and even the fifteen year old child witness was 184 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 4: trying to message to the detectives, I'm only able to 185 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,440 Speaker 4: identify the hairstyle in the beginning. He did the best 186 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 4: he could as a child to do the right thing 187 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,720 Speaker 4: in that situation, but as you've probably read, with future 188 00:10:22,040 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 4: efforts by the police, his will was overborn. 189 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Hobson was shown another photo of Rare week 190 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: or so later. This time, though, Roberts is the only 191 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: photo present from the first photo lineup, as well as 192 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 1: again being the only person in the lineup with that hairstyle, 193 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: so super suggestive. And we don't know anything else about 194 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,599 Speaker 1: this interaction, but if the first time was any indication, 195 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 1: never mind what we know happened later at pre trial 196 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,480 Speaker 1: and at trial and what Derek later said as an adult, 197 00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:53,400 Speaker 1: there was probably a lot of pressure and suggestion going on, 198 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: and Derek hobbs that again identified Robert and you were 199 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:01,079 Speaker 1: arrested on July eleventh. That's six weeks after the crime 200 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: and almost a month after Dark's initial id in front 201 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 1: of the victim's family. So it doesn't seem like they 202 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: were in a big hurry here. If they were really 203 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 1: convinced that you were credible for at the public safety, 204 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: they might have moved a little more quickly. No, I mean, 205 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 1: I don't mean to make light of it, but it 206 00:11:14,880 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: seems ridiculous. Did you hear that they were looking for you? 207 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: Did they just bust down the door one day? 208 00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,200 Speaker 3: I was sitting down watching TV and boom boom, boom, 209 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 3: boom boom. I turned so my girl at the time 210 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 3: opened the door and they ran in and they said, 211 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:31,360 Speaker 3: put your hands behind it back. 212 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 2: They cuffed me and put me in the. 213 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:36,840 Speaker 1: Cor and thus begins almost thirty years saga. 214 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 3: When we went to the motion to suppress hearing and 215 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: this witness got up there and told the judge and 216 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: all of them listen, it's not him. I can't all 217 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 3: I know is curly hearing the tail. They said, you 218 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,720 Speaker 3: see the guy in court. He says, no, I don't. 219 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 3: So it was getting the ruling on it in the morning, 220 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: and I swore I was going to win that motion. 221 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. 222 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,040 Speaker 4: He had faith that we had a criminal legal system 223 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 4: that was going to straighten this out. You know, if 224 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 4: we can just get into court, if we just get 225 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 4: in front of a judge and that judge understands that 226 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:22,839 Speaker 4: this witness is only saying that he's recognizing a hairstyle, 227 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 4: and you know the legal standard has been explained to 228 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 4: Robert right, that it was argued correctly to the judge right. 229 00:12:30,640 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 4: He had faith that this was going to get straightened out. 230 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 3: Now, I remember losing it always sat with me wrong. 231 00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 3: It wasn't until Amy and John and them came along 232 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 3: and finally told that they had a hearing without my 233 00:12:43,960 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 3: lawyers present, and it was a judge, the DA, the 234 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 3: police and the witness, and then it that's where they 235 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 3: told him that I had asked a witness and that's 236 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:55,559 Speaker 3: why he testified like he did it. 237 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 2: The motion to suppress. 238 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 4: The argument of the prosecutor was that Robert and people 239 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,760 Speaker 4: associated with Robert were the ones who had intimidated the 240 00:13:04,800 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 4: witness into not identifying him. 241 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 1: Right, I mean, talk about projection or gas lighting or 242 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,560 Speaker 1: whatever you want to call it. And because as was 243 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 1: found out later from Derek as an adult, that's precisely 244 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: what they had been doing at this very hearing to 245 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 1: him when he was just a fifteen year old child. 246 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,360 Speaker 4: Yes, so you had this escalating pattern of the child's 247 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:34,600 Speaker 4: witness not testifying definitively against Robert, being taken out into 248 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 4: the hallway or you know, into the back and being threatened, 249 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 4: and then coming back in and you know, giving more 250 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 4: definitive testimony. 251 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 3: And when I came in in a mourning motion to suppress, 252 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 3: Aaron just threw that out. 253 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: I knew I was going to jail in. 254 00:13:49,440 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 4: You know, all these years later, on our motion for 255 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 4: a new trial that we filed in twenty twenty, he 256 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 4: came forward and spoke to the die's office and explained 257 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 4: all of what happened from his perspective, now as a 258 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:06,720 Speaker 4: grown man, and they credited that that this had happened, 259 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 4: that these cops did do this, and that the prosecutor, 260 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 4: the trial prosecutor from their office engaged in this misconduct 261 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 4: as well. 262 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: I mean, wow, I wish I'd felt surprised by this, 263 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: but being surrounded by all of these people at the 264 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 1: Innocence Network conference, men and women with very similar stories, 265 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 1: it just puts a very exhausting and depressing byingpoint on 266 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: how common and not surprising this all is. In fact, 267 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:38,800 Speaker 1: that they recognized Derek's statement as credible, now that's the 268 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: surprising part. It shouldn't be, but it is so now 269 00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: that they've had so much trouble with their only evidence 270 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: against Robert, this misidentification that Derek Copson was so desperately 271 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: trying to rescind, they knew that they had to gather 272 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: something else against Robert to make dis charge stick instead of, 273 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 1: you know, maybe finding the real perpetrator, like what they're 274 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: paid to do. And it would be funny if it 275 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 1: wasn't so sick, because that's exactly what they did. And 276 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: of course I'm talking about Troy Logan. They also picked 277 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: up Ronnie Christian who were not sure if he had 278 00:15:07,040 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: any involvement, but they were picked up in September. The 279 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: police said that Logan identified you from a photo lineup 280 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: and gave a statement, and according to Logan, you accompanied 281 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 1: him and another man to Kenneth McLean's house to buy cope. Now, 282 00:15:18,760 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: you and McLean supposedly argued about a previous deal in 283 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: which McLean allegedly sold you a bad batch. Logan said 284 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: that he left when the fighting started, but that he 285 00:15:29,560 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: saw you go back inside with a gun and he 286 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: allegedly heard gunshots. So this all sounds like a typical 287 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 1: course or it said, to buy a statement where a 288 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,400 Speaker 1: witness cops to being there, right because he has to 289 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: under this pressure, but not enough to incriminate himself, right, 290 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: just a safe distance, so to speak. So I mean, 291 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 1: did you even know this Troy Logan character? 292 00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 3: I never met the guy, but I don't know he's 293 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,800 Speaker 3: from He's a New York gang member from the paperwork 294 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 3: I see. I never met him a day in my life. 295 00:15:56,600 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: Okay, And I was getting crazier. I mean, the state 296 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: filed continuance to delay your trial, Robert, because they wanted 297 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: to try the three of you together. 298 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 3: But my whole thing is I was ready for trial. 299 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 3: They were already scheduled the trial date and Logan at 300 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: that point he makes a statement to him saying this that, 301 00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 3: and they preclude my trial basically to try us jointly. 302 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,920 Speaker 3: But there's other evidence that they withheld because it would 303 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 3: have killed logan statement. There's a statement from his stepfather 304 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 3: who we lived with, that outline that he told the 305 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 3: stepfather that he was the one that did it. 306 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 2: So they hit that pot from. 307 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: Me, Amy, looks like you're about to jump out of 308 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: your skin. 309 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,360 Speaker 4: So we didn't get that statement from Troy Logan's stepfather 310 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 4: until twenty seventeen either, So they buried it, and they 311 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 4: buried a lot of exculpatory evidence that incriminated Troy Logan. 312 00:16:55,400 --> 00:17:00,240 Speaker 4: Right because Troy Logan's false statement that he gave to 313 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 4: the police that implicated Robert was necessary to the case. 314 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:06,680 Speaker 4: This isn't even disputed. 315 00:17:07,240 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 2: Right. 316 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 4: Much of the incriminating evidence against Troy Logan was never 317 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 4: turned over, but a portion of it, the most important, 318 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 4: I think, was a report that the Anti Gang Violence 319 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 4: unit put together where they got information that Troy Logan 320 00:17:25,160 --> 00:17:28,959 Speaker 4: was actually the shooter, and if Toy Logan was the shooter, 321 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 4: they're trying the case to the jury saying Robert's the shooter. 322 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:37,239 Speaker 4: They have this police report saying that they have a 323 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 4: confidential informant who has given them information, and they verified 324 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 4: the confidential informant through other information. It was considered a 325 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 4: reliable informant who said, you know, Troy Logan is the shooter. 326 00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 4: He's bragging about it all over the streets of Dorchester. 327 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 4: He shot Kenny McLain. And they didn't turn that over, 328 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:02,840 Speaker 4: and their motive for doing that appeared to be that 329 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,879 Speaker 4: Troy was compromised. Troy had given them information about the 330 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,879 Speaker 4: murder implicated Robert, and they didn't have anything on Robert 331 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 4: except the fifteen year olds with the hairstyle. So it 332 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 4: wasn't until twenty seventeen that evidence came out that they 333 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 4: had buried. 334 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: All of that. 335 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: Right, And when we go back to the beginning of 336 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: the show, when I was talking about the flimsiest of evidence, 337 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:29,399 Speaker 1: like literally, there's a strand of hair, right, and not 338 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 1: a strand of hair on her microscope, just a hair style, right, 339 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: this was the evidence. Yes, Now let's talk about the attorneys. 340 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: So many of the people we've had on our show 341 00:18:39,119 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: had attorneys that were not up to the task. And 342 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: that's being kind. But your family hired one of the 343 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:46,640 Speaker 1: top guys, is that right? 344 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? And I had Willie Davis who tried me the 345 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: cases before, and. 346 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: So you had Willie Davis and then Troy Logan. You 347 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: had another guy named William White, correct, and then White 348 00:18:56,800 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: actually joined Davis's firm. 349 00:18:59,080 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 2: Correct. 350 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,880 Speaker 1: And the judge ordered you to get a new attorney because 351 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: of this new partnership that these. 352 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: Guys had forged. 353 00:19:07,359 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: The conflict, Yeah, the conflict that that created. 354 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:12,640 Speaker 3: When they conflicted him. Ount He didn't give us back, 355 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 3: no money, He just recommended us to another attorney. 356 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: Okay, So the trial itself, there's this guy you never 357 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: laid eyes on in your life, not even from the 358 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: same city, who's out bragging all over town about having 359 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: done this, and you're being put on trial with him, right. 360 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 3: Yes, they put me in one area up theirs and 361 00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 3: put him in the other. They brought me down, sat 362 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 3: me at one table, Ronnie in there, and then the 363 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:38,840 Speaker 3: Logan over there. 364 00:19:39,359 --> 00:19:42,760 Speaker 4: And you know, ultimately that was a legal issue in 365 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 4: a legal error, right, you know, trying Robert along with 366 00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 4: Troy Logan. 367 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: Right, since they had this statement for the Logan. Naming 368 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:53,239 Speaker 1: Robert as a shooter. Admitting that into evidence would have 369 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,719 Speaker 1: opened Logan up to cross examination. But since he's a 370 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: co defendant, forcing him to take the standard trial would 371 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 1: be a clear violation of his Fifth Amendment right. So 372 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: in order to protect everyone's right to a fair trial, 373 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:08,119 Speaker 1: the prosecution came up with what they probably thought was 374 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,760 Speaker 1: an elegant solution, but in reality it just trampled on 375 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: Robert's rights and it involved using the name mister X. 376 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: Oh my god, can you elaborate on that. 377 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 4: Amy Troy Logan's statement to the police where he was 378 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 4: naming Robert, you know, as the shooter, the DA's office 379 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 4: proposed to redact Robert's name and call him mister X 380 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:37,159 Speaker 4: in the statement, you know, for the jury. So the 381 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 4: statement reads, Troy Logan said that, you know, mister X 382 00:20:41,000 --> 00:20:45,200 Speaker 4: took a gun, went upstairs shot this victim. Mister X 383 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 4: is the one who did this, and Troy Logan saw it. 384 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 4: And then the jury was told mister X is not 385 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 4: Ronnie Christian. So by deduction, okay, there's only one other 386 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:01,719 Speaker 4: person mister X can be. And their theory of the 387 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:06,080 Speaker 4: case is Robert is the shooter. So the judicial system 388 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 4: decides that a fair trial for Robert is well, we're 389 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,479 Speaker 4: going to redact your name out and we're going to 390 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:15,440 Speaker 4: say mister X, so we don't violate your rights. Right, 391 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 4: But there isn't anybody else possibly you could ever deduce 392 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 4: was mister X except for Robert, And at the time 393 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 4: Robert was tried that was considered a fair trial. There 394 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 4: wasn't any kind of care and attention systemically to Robert's rights. 395 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 4: Robert didn't have the advocacy and the representation at the 396 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,920 Speaker 4: time of trial that he should have had. But ultimately 397 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 4: the argument was put to the judge who certainly knew 398 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,160 Speaker 4: what the law was and didn't do the right thing. 399 00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: So the trial itself, how long did it last? 400 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: About a week? 401 00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: It's hard to believe they managed to waste a week 402 00:21:55,560 --> 00:21:58,400 Speaker 1: on this what's literally nothing to talk about, this crazy 403 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: mister X, which is like from a bad script. And 404 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: then the witness I think courageously doing his best to 405 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,000 Speaker 1: backtrack and saying that he was only eighty percent sure 406 00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: in his identification. 407 00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 4: The way they got him to testify against Robert is 408 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 4: over the lunch break between the morning and the afternoon 409 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 4: sessions of trial. They put the kid into a holding 410 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:26,680 Speaker 4: cell at the courthouse, and they said to him, you 411 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 4: either testify that that guy sitting there on trial is 412 00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 4: the guy you saw as the shooter, or we're going 413 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 4: to put you in a cell with the three defendants 414 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 4: on trial who are murderers. And this is a young boy. 415 00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, he saw no way out other than to tell 416 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 1: the lies that he was told to tell, right right. 417 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,880 Speaker 1: So yeah, as far as the defense goes, Robert, did 418 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,440 Speaker 1: you have an alibi? Did you have witnesses to testify 419 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 1: on your behalf? 420 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 3: I would have gotten on the stand, but the problem 421 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 3: was my loy said it would have hurt me more 422 00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:58,199 Speaker 3: to let them hear my pass and my conviction, so 423 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 3: I didn't get up there. I didn't get on understand 424 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 3: so I didn't really present no trial defense. I just 425 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 3: went on misidentification in an alibi defense. My family members 426 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 3: in all them came, but at that point I was 427 00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:11,679 Speaker 3: kind of stuck. 428 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: And on March thirty first, nineteen ninety two, predictably, unfortunately, 429 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: the jury convicted you of second degree murder and sentence 430 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 1: you to life in prison. To add insult to injury, 431 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 1: Logan was acquitted and Christian received a directed verdict of 432 00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:33,880 Speaker 1: not guilty after the state closed its case. So they 433 00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: got it exactly wrong. I mean, it's incredible how they 434 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: how they do this and lock up the innocent man 435 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,679 Speaker 1: and let the guilty one go, and then all of 436 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: us remain in danger. And that's exactly what happened here. 437 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 1: So that moment when you were convicted. 438 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,040 Speaker 3: I didn't know it. I really didn't know it. I 439 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 3: was a last verdict, they said. I didn't know it. 440 00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 3: Ronnie Fishing got generated I think earlier that day or 441 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,520 Speaker 3: the next day, I can't remember. And then when they 442 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 3: came back, they read Logan's verdict first and they said 443 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 3: not guilty. So if my mom was sitting in the 444 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 3: front row, so when they started saying my name, I'm 445 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 3: looking around at that it's that I'm not paying attention 446 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,439 Speaker 3: because I just know I'm not going to jail. And 447 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 3: when I turned around, I seen the mails be like, yeah, 448 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 3: you gotta turn around. The cuff up back, I said, 449 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 3: for what they told me, And I know that was 450 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 3: a horrible ride in. 451 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 2: The back of that meat wagon. That was a horrible ride. 452 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 3: When I finally got up there, they bring me to 453 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,960 Speaker 3: a unit called the AA unit, and that's basically a 454 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,159 Speaker 3: segregation unit. So when I walked in, this is this 455 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,800 Speaker 3: is straight on it right here. They had trash in 456 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 3: the middle of the unit's probably halfway to your. 457 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,800 Speaker 2: Calf, mice running around everywhere. 458 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 3: You got to kick through it and go to yourself 459 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 3: and lock yourself. And I couldn't believe this. Which prison 460 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 3: was that? 461 00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,320 Speaker 2: Walpole? Walpole? 462 00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's infamous. 463 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,720 Speaker 3: I remember in ninety three, I think I was upstate, 464 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 3: probably about sixteen fifteen, eighteen months somewhere, we got a 465 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 3: letter from the federal authorities on the Freedom Information Rack request, 466 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:30,040 Speaker 3: and the letter outline that I wasn't the one that 467 00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:32,280 Speaker 3: did it. I went earl when the lawyer brought me 468 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 3: this letter, I said, oh, I'm going home. I remember that, 469 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 3: I saying shit. I was so happy. And then when 470 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 3: the judge denied to U thirty, he didn't put nothing 471 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 3: behind it. But the letter didn't have an affidavit supporting it, 472 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,639 Speaker 3: but originally was from the United States Attorney's Office outlining 473 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: who did it and how they did it. 474 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 4: Yeah, there was a federal debriefing of somebody who was 475 00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 4: involved in this murder. You know, a person that was 476 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 4: never a suspect and never brought to trial, he was 477 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:13,040 Speaker 4: a federal informant, and through that debriefing process, the federal agents, 478 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 4: you know, will say, do you have any other information 479 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:19,560 Speaker 4: you know, in any other cases, right that you want 480 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 4: to give us, because they're sitting there in this profit 481 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,680 Speaker 4: session with them and they have immunity. And so the 482 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:29,439 Speaker 4: guy says, yeah, that Kenneth maclein murder. You guys, you 483 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 4: convicted the wrong guy, Okay, And the reason I know 484 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,919 Speaker 4: you did is because I was there for the planning 485 00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 4: of it. I was involved in this, right, And that 486 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 4: was in ninety three, right, And they turned it over 487 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 4: to Earl Howard, your trial attorney, who didn't make effective 488 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 4: use of it. Right, And then years later, you know, 489 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,800 Speaker 4: the Suffolk County District Attorney's office didn't do anything about it. 490 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 4: You know, they've already declared that person to be a 491 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 4: reliable and formant because they're using his testimony to you know, 492 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 4: convict other people. Right, they've already decided he's reliable. But 493 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,359 Speaker 4: they did not act. 494 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 2: And they knew it was true. 495 00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 4: And they knew it was true. 496 00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,600 Speaker 3: Because everything in that statement that he made matched the 497 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 3: evidence from the gun to the person who were in 498 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 3: the car, the people that were named in prior proceedings. 499 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 3: Everything that he gave in that rundown outlined who did 500 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:28,119 Speaker 3: it and they hate He said they had a thirty 501 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 3: six tech nine millimeter ballistics of the States said, that's 502 00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 3: what it was. 503 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:34,000 Speaker 2: They said, with three dudes that got in the car. 504 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:36,879 Speaker 3: And these are the dudes, both of them, dudes t Lovell, 505 00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: who no one ever knew, and he sent formant said 506 00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 3: they were in the car. Now, he gave all this 507 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 3: to the state without knowing anything about my case at 508 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 3: the time. So it just took that from the state 509 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 3: and matched it to this point. Because I didn't appeal 510 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 3: my case in ninety three. I didn't appeal my case then, 511 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 3: so there was nothing on the books for you to 512 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 3: read or understand anything. He just gave a statement and 513 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 3: outline how his involved wasn't who would have acted. And 514 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 3: when we got that statement, that's when we started comparing 515 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:05,479 Speaker 3: it and it matched up. 516 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: And that guy's name was Hughesy join us. 517 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know there were Boston Police detectives and 518 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:16,479 Speaker 4: an ADA from Suffolk County who were sitting there in 519 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 4: the room, the two agencies that were responsible for convicting him, 520 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 4: and they didn't turn that information over. 521 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: You were let down to, betrayed and screwed over by 522 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:31,199 Speaker 1: not just the people that were against you, but the 523 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:32,879 Speaker 1: people that were supposed to be protecting you. 524 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 2: I thought the same thing. 525 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 3: Actually, my same attorney that sold me out a trial, 526 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:38,920 Speaker 3: I had the same attorney on appeal. 527 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 2: I got the wrong end of the stick by him 528 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 2: all day. 529 00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 4: Robert's trial attorney did not perfect his appellate rights and 530 00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 4: did not exhaust all of his claims in the state 531 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 4: court before the time ran out for him to do so. 532 00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 4: It was his attorney dropped the ball, and so Robert's 533 00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:02,560 Speaker 4: first post conviction lawyers John and Linda Thompson, who had 534 00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 4: the case for twenty years, right, I only came in 535 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 4: at the tail end the last five years. They had 536 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 4: the case for twenty years. So they're trying to exhaust 537 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 4: his state claims and bring it up to federal court, 538 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 4: but it took years to do that. By the time 539 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 4: they do that they bring it up to federal court, 540 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 4: the law had changed and made statements like the mister 541 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 4: X statement inadmissible to convict somebody with evidence like that. 542 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 4: I think the district court judge in federal court who 543 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 4: actually heard this the first time on the habeas petition 544 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 4: did say that that was insufficient evidence to convictor Robert, 545 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 4: and she let Robert out honest day, right then, and 546 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 4: she did vacate the conviction, saying that evidence is insufficient 547 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,960 Speaker 4: to have convicted him of this murder. But unfortunately the 548 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 4: first Circuit Court of Appeals reversed her decision and put 549 00:29:56,760 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 4: the conviction back, and then, of course our sjac Massachusetts 550 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:06,000 Speaker 4: let that stand. Our Supreme Judicial Court ruled that because 551 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 4: the law at the time of Robert's trial was that 552 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 4: that was good evidence, that that was good evidence, and 553 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 4: that they weren't going to overturn his conviction even though 554 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,880 Speaker 4: he had suffered this injustice of not having his appellate 555 00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 4: rights perfected when they should have been, and if he had, 556 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 4: he would have had the benefit of that law. It 557 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 4: was just another gross injustice. John and Linda Thompson, you know, 558 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 4: they got him out and then they watched him return 559 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 4: to prison. 560 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 3: I never forget that time. I never I was out. 561 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 3: It seemed like eighteen months later. I just got off 562 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,760 Speaker 3: for boom boom boom, boom boom, and I opened it 563 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 3: and the US my ancius said you're going I never 564 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 3: forget that there. 565 00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 4: It's unreal it is And John and Linda they they 566 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 4: fought the case all those years. Even after they didn't 567 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 4: give up, they were resolved to have him come back 568 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 4: out again, and thank god he did so. 569 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: With a little break in the middle. You endured almost 570 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: three decades, but ultimately justice delayed was not denied. How 571 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: did you get him? How was he here? How did 572 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: you do it? 573 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 4: As I said before, John and Linda never gave up 574 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 4: on the case, trying to get the DA's office to 575 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 4: give them access to discovery that they knew was there, 576 00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,200 Speaker 4: that was withheld because the informant who'sy joiners that I 577 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 4: sat down, I told them they have all the paperwork. 578 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 2: You know. 579 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 4: They were trying trying to get the discovery, trying to 580 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 4: get the information, and it just got tiring. John Thompson 581 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 4: wrote me a letter in January of twenty sixteen. I 582 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,880 Speaker 4: knew of him by reputation, and he knew me sort 583 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 4: of the same way, and he said, I have an 584 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 4: innocent client, and I know you have a heart for 585 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 4: innocence work. And John Thompson is one of the top, 586 00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 4: if not the top, appellate practitioner in Massachusetts. And you 587 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 4: know as soon as I saw the return address on 588 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 4: the envelope of the letter, I'm like, whatever he wants 589 00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 4: for me, I'm going. 590 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,600 Speaker 2: To do it right. 591 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:11,440 Speaker 4: So you know, that's how I became involved in the case. 592 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 4: He didn't really need my legal mind, right, he needed 593 00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 4: my support, and he needed somebody to come in, you know, 594 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 4: to sort of be aggressive about the fact that they 595 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,400 Speaker 4: weren't turning over the discovery, actually calling it what it is. 596 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 4: This is prosecutorial misconduct, this is an ethical violation that 597 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 4: you haven't turned it over, and I'm going to tell 598 00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:35,040 Speaker 4: everybody if you don't give it to me. And then finally, 599 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 4: once we had it, we were able to put the 600 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 4: claim together and between John's efforts and my efforts, you know, 601 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 4: to try to get the information that went on for 602 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 4: twelve years, right when they had the documents the whole 603 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:51,520 Speaker 4: time and they weren't turning them over. 604 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 3: I talked to John, I remember he said, he asked 605 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: me if I knew Aimy. I said no, He's I'm 606 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 3: want to reach out this then, and I said, okay, 607 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:02,760 Speaker 3: since she came in, and it's yeah, I've seen documents 608 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 3: that I would have never got a lot of them, 609 00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,040 Speaker 3: documents and I know that for a fact. 610 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 1: And you would have probably died in prison. 611 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 2: I uh certain point. You know, that's a that's the 612 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 2: pillar size of a basketball. 613 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 3: And anybody who's got a lot of time and they'll 614 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:26,160 Speaker 3: tell you it took years to get that pill down. 615 00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 3: When you know, you take a regular pill, you swallow it, 616 00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:30,320 Speaker 3: that's it. But when you're swallowing that pill that you 617 00:33:30,360 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 3: know what, I'm never going home. This is where I'm 618 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 3: going to be for the rest of my life. Every 619 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 3: day you're trying to take a little gulp to get 620 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 3: it down and then after finally sat down in here, Okay, 621 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:40,600 Speaker 3: this is me. 622 00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 2: It's where I'm gonna be at. So when the. 623 00:33:43,400 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 3: Lawyers come on board and they litigated and they get 624 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 3: you that relief and they pulled that ball out of 625 00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 3: this like you go on in life, but you always 626 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 3: feel it down there. Nothing's going to ever fill out 627 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 3: spot where that ball was at. 628 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: Wow. 629 00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:02,520 Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's heavy. It's powerful, and I don't 630 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 1: think anyone who doesn't know that on the level that 631 00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:10,759 Speaker 1: you do could ever truly understand it. And look, thankfully 632 00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 1: you're on the other side of that basketball sized pill 633 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 1: in no small part through the work of Amy John 634 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: and Linda Thompson, your own hard work and perseverance most 635 00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,359 Speaker 1: of all, and courage. And I also have to mention 636 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 1: my empathy in all of this. For Derek Hobson, I mean, 637 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 1: he was coerced as a terrified child to play a 638 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,680 Speaker 1: part in your wrongful conviction. And I've got to imagine 639 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:39,240 Speaker 1: that he was carrying around a huge amount of guilt, 640 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,640 Speaker 1: even considering how much he pushed back under tremendous pressure. 641 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: I mean, he really did try. 642 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:46,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, he tried. 643 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 3: And I think, you know what, I think that bothered 644 00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 3: him a lot, because since I've been out, I took him, 645 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 3: went out to eat me and him and his wife 646 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 3: and me and my girl, and and he just told me, 647 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,000 Speaker 3: he's all like this bothered me for a long time, 648 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,439 Speaker 3: even before the district attorney called him forward and asked 649 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 3: him about the case. He said, when they called him 650 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 3: forward and asked them about the case, after almost thirty years, 651 00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,239 Speaker 3: he said, do you want the same story or you 652 00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,799 Speaker 3: want the truth? And they said, no, we want the truth. 653 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 3: That's when he told him the truth when I was 654 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 3: let out. But he told me he was seeing a 655 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 3: psych service person for many years over that because he 656 00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 3: couldn't sleep and there was nothing he could do. 657 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:28,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the hell of a thing to carry around 658 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: with you. And it's beautiful actually that you connected with him. 659 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:35,240 Speaker 1: You know that says a lot about your character, because 660 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people would hold a grudge 661 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: and be easy to understand why they would. So on 662 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: December eighteenth and twenty twenty, prosecutor's father response in self 663 00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: superior court that supported a new trial and your immediate 664 00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: release from prison. It's said, and this is powerful, and 665 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,040 Speaker 1: this is a quote in summary, the single identification witnesses 666 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 1: credible recantation of his identification testimony, the substantial likelihood that 667 00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: the unnecess scessoroly suggestive identification procedure could have resulted in 668 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 1: a misidentification of the defendant, and the prejudicial impact of 669 00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: the manner in which the co defended statement was presented 670 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,239 Speaker 1: to the jury cast real doubt on the justice of 671 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 1: the conviction end quote. So District Attorney Rachel Rollins then 672 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: filed an emergency petition on December twenty second, twenty twenty, 673 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: with the state's Supreme Judicial Court, and on December twenty third, 674 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,880 Speaker 1: the very next day after hearing from the state and 675 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: your attorney's associate Justice got Kafker ordered your release from 676 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: prison that very day. And here's an incredible quote from 677 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: mister Thompson to a great attorney. He said, a tremendous 678 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,880 Speaker 1: amount of government resources goes into convicting people of serious crimes, 679 00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: as it should, but there are almost no resources available 680 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: to people who've been wrongfully convicted. We know there are 681 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,480 Speaker 1: many people who been in this situation, and has been 682 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:59,880 Speaker 1: his character and determination that have made the difference. Wow, Okay, 683 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: so the day, what was that moment? 684 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:06,879 Speaker 2: Like, well, I was happy, I came home. 685 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:09,800 Speaker 3: I came home in the middle of COVID, wasn't no jobs, 686 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 3: everything was shut down. And you know, even though the 687 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,799 Speaker 3: state they let you out after almost thirty years, they 688 00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:19,680 Speaker 3: just out the door. 689 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,879 Speaker 2: We made a mistake here, they'd leave out the door. 690 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:23,520 Speaker 2: They don't give you no type of competence. 691 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 3: I mean, if you put someone there wrong for link, 692 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,919 Speaker 3: you admit it and you open the door for them, 693 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 3: you can't send them home with nothing. Just that some 694 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 3: people I had a family, so I went there, but 695 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:34,960 Speaker 3: some people don't have that. 696 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 1: You know, That's that's a very important point and it's 697 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,359 Speaker 1: something that's troubled me for a long long time, and 698 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: it's been a significant out of my energy trying to, 699 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 1: you know, help to build ramps for people coming out 700 00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 1: who don't have that access like you did it, you know, 701 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:57,239 Speaker 1: because it's it's insane like and it's actoutely insane. So 702 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: we close our show every week the exact same way. 703 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,600 Speaker 1: This is where I first of all, thank you again. 704 00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:08,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to turn my microphone off, leave yours on, 705 00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 1: and just kick back in my chair and let Amy 706 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: Wyce you go first, and let Robert take us out 707 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,520 Speaker 1: for any final thoughts you want to share with me 708 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 1: and our audience. 709 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:22,680 Speaker 4: I'm grateful that at long last, the DA's office did 710 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,040 Speaker 4: the right thing and met their obligations and turned over 711 00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:29,840 Speaker 4: the exculpatory evidence that they turned over in Robert's case 712 00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 4: that got us back into court. And I have hope 713 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 4: going forward that we can have more conviction integrity and 714 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 4: learn from the wrongful convictions across the nation and recognize 715 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 4: the flaws and the system for what they are and 716 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:52,680 Speaker 4: fix them. And if it were not for people opening 717 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 4: up their minds and deciding that they're going to do 718 00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 4: the right thing, I'm not sure Robert would be here 719 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:03,720 Speaker 4: right now. Very tenacious advocates. But you need all system 720 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:08,680 Speaker 4: actors to be honest about the past and honest about 721 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,000 Speaker 4: what needs to be done in the present. And so 722 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:15,959 Speaker 4: I move forward, you know, from Robert's conviction and exoneration, 723 00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,400 Speaker 4: with great hope that the same relief can come to others. 724 00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:25,720 Speaker 3: And for me, I'm happy to be here. I love Amy, 725 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 3: I love John, I love Linda. It came into my 726 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,680 Speaker 3: life and change it for the better. I come down here, 727 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,879 Speaker 3: I was talking to all these men women down here 728 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,160 Speaker 3: that went through similar trials and tribulations, and you get 729 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 3: a sense of understanding that it's kind of like a 730 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,200 Speaker 3: unique class because you got the advocates. 731 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 2: Yah, you got the media. 732 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 3: Here, you got the family here, so it was just 733 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 3: one big happy enjoy is. It's like one big family here. 734 00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:54,320 Speaker 3: So I noticed this and I told Amy this today. 735 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,239 Speaker 3: This field, as far as litigating post conviction appeals and 736 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,759 Speaker 3: actual inn's exig reason, all is well dominated by females. 737 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,880 Speaker 2: And you know, we as men have. 738 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,160 Speaker 3: To take our hats off to them, and they say, 739 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 3: thank you very much. There's a lot of males, but 740 00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,080 Speaker 3: then you know it's dominated by females. That's because there's 741 00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 3: no Manchire listening one. When it comes to females, they 742 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 3: just want to get the job accomplished. 743 00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 2: And they have. That's why it's so packed down. Here 744 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 2: is here. 745 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,520 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to 746 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn and Kevin 747 00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: Wardis with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this 748 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,840 Speaker 1: production was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 749 00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 750 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 751 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 752 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 753 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason plom Rawful Conviction is 754 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,840 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 755 00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:11,840 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one