Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast.
Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisenthal.
Speaker 2: And I'm Tracy Alloway.
Speaker 1: Tracy, do you remember a few weeks ago, or maybe
Speaker 1: a couple of months ago now, someone made a like
Speaker 1: a fake AI version of the Odd Lots podcast and
Speaker 1: they like replicated our voice.
Speaker 2: Yes, I think they used chat gpt to do it.
Speaker 2: And they basically asked chat gpt to create a script
Speaker 2: for odd Loots and that they had someone replicate another app
Speaker 2: or something replicated.
Speaker 1: It wasn't a someone like I mean, it was like
Speaker 1: somewhat like other like AI app. It was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was pretty it was pretty good. It was like good.
Speaker 1: I mean it clearly like was not us.
Speaker 2: How much did it worry you, Joe?
Speaker 1: I think I'm more of an AI domer worrier than
Speaker 1: you are.
Speaker 3: Interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean, I have concerns, don't get me wrong, But
Speaker 2: what do you think is the worst case scenario? Is
Speaker 2: it robot taking over the world.
Speaker 4: No.
Speaker 1: I think that like in a couple of years, the
Speaker 1: AI will do a really good job of making the
Speaker 1: Odd Lots podcast. And people say, I don't really need
Speaker 1: to listen to Joe and Tracy anymore. The AI is
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm like, you know, I but I
Speaker 1: feel like maybe that's all a parandoise.
Speaker 2: No, I feel like there is reason for concern. I hope.
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm just being an optimist here. I hope we
Speaker 2: are a few years away from the odd Blots replicat.
Speaker 1: I know what, I want to do this for like
Speaker 1: another thirty years, and I don't want to just have
Speaker 1: like three or four years or a few years.
Speaker 2: That's the optimistic scenario. Is it doing this in thirty
Speaker 2: years time?
Speaker 3: Okay?
Speaker 4: All right?
Speaker 2: AI. Lots of people expressing some worries about.
Speaker 1: It, a million different kind of words.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we see all these, you know, good ways
Speaker 2: that the technology is being used, but also insidious ways.
Speaker 2: As you pointed out, someone made an Audlots episode. I
Speaker 2: think that was in a in a very fun spirited way,
Speaker 2: a nice way. But there are people who use this
Speaker 2: technology for more nefarious things. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think there was like a sixty minutes recently where
Speaker 1: like someone was able to like impersonate someone's voice and say, hey,
Speaker 1: you know, you know, you could imagine this scam where
Speaker 1: someone's like kids, say hey, I need money or something
Speaker 1: like that, and they call and it sounds just like them,
Speaker 1: especially in a couple of years when the tech gets
Speaker 1: better and it becomes a bit of a crisis in
Speaker 1: the sense it's like, do I know that a person
Speaker 1: is a person when they talk to me on a zoom,
Speaker 1: when they talk to me on a podcast, when they
Speaker 1: talk to me on a phone call, et cetera.
Speaker 2: Well, even on Twitter on a much more basic level,
Speaker 2: you have all these bots, and I don't know about you,
Speaker 2: but there seems to be a new Tracy Alloway with
Speaker 2: the l as like an I and fooling everyone almost
Speaker 2: like every few weeks, and then you have to go
Speaker 2: through the whole bureaucracy of reporting to Twitter and proving
Speaker 2: that you are in fact the original Tracy alloyway.
Speaker 1: And not to get into much of a tangent, but
Speaker 1: wasn't Elon going to solve this because he said like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm buying Twitter to solve the bots problem, and I don't,
Speaker 1: as you say, it's not been solved.
Speaker 2: I think that's a whole other episode.
Speaker 1: But even with like really rudimentary like human you know,
Speaker 1: fake traces and fake Joe's like, that's the most rudimentary thing,
Speaker 1: just like taking our avatar and like changing like one
Speaker 1: of the l's and trade in L a way to
Speaker 1: like an I or whatever or one like. That's just
Speaker 1: gonna get worse.
Speaker 2: You know what's a really good business model creating a
Speaker 2: problem and then creating the solution to it.
Speaker 1: Yes, that's exactly right. So you have all So we
Speaker 1: have all of these ais, and they're going to like
Speaker 1: replicate us, They're going to look like us, or they're
Speaker 1: going to talk like us. But the good news, in
Speaker 1: a sense good is that others are working out the
Speaker 1: problem of how do you prove that you are who
Speaker 1: you are in a world in which AIS can replicate
Speaker 1: our voices and our faces and our expression.
Speaker 2: Technology can save us from technology?
Speaker 1: Is the thrust of this, right exactly. So we are
Speaker 1: going to be speaking to someone working on the technology
Speaker 1: designed to address this concern in part. And as you say,
Speaker 1: some of the people working on it are some of
Speaker 1: the same peopleeople behind some of the most cutting edge
Speaker 1: AI research that's sort of like blowing everyone's minds in
Speaker 1: both good and scary ways these days.
Speaker 2: So I'm just going to go ahead and lay out
Speaker 2: my priors here, which are that I find this sort
Speaker 2: of instinctively dystopian the topic of this podcast what we're
Speaker 2: going to be discussing. This technology creeps me out a
Speaker 2: little bit. But that said, I don't know that much
Speaker 2: about it. I don't know much about how it works,
Speaker 2: and so I am very interested to hear the bowl
Speaker 2: case on eyeball scanning.
Speaker 1: So you just jump bright. We're going to be talking
Speaker 1: eyeball scanning. We are going to be speaking with Alex Blania.
Speaker 1: He is the co founder of world Coin, an entity
Speaker 1: that was set up also by Sam Altman, who everybody
Speaker 1: a name that everybody knows now because he's the co
Speaker 1: founder or the founder of open ai, which powers chad
Speaker 1: GPT and other tools. Other co founder Max nor Frenstern.
Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about how an eyeball scanner
Speaker 1: can allow us to theoretically prove our human in this
Speaker 1: future AI world. So Alex, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: coming on odd Lots.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to talk.
Speaker 1: So I'm trying to think, I mean, like the threat,
Speaker 1: how real is it that you know, in a few
Speaker 1: years do you think not whether AI will be able
Speaker 1: to create a perfect replica of the podcast, but that
Speaker 1: let's say we're having this conversation and I might really
Speaker 1: not know that I am talking to the real Alex
Speaker 1: Blania versus an AI that could perfectly replicate your voice
Speaker 1: and replicate your face. Like is that two years away?
Speaker 1: Is that three years away? Like? How soon is that coming?
Speaker 4: Well? I think partially we are already there. Right the.
Speaker 5: Technology is not completely open source yet, so you don't
Speaker 5: have widely deployed, deployed systems that can't do that, but
Speaker 5: rather you have right now you have like a few
Speaker 5: teas that actually can do things like that or would
Speaker 5: be able to do things like that. But this is
Speaker 5: going to change because of course the progress is increasing.
Speaker 5: So you had it started with Dolly and you had
Speaker 5: stable diffusion and many other things that on the image
Speaker 5: generation side became increasingly impressive. And I think are ai
Speaker 5: R is one of the coolest things of the of
Speaker 5: the last couple of the last year, to be honest.
Speaker 5: So that's on the image generation side of things, and
Speaker 5: then of course you have chat GIPT on the text
Speaker 5: generation side of things. So I think on Twitter, as
Speaker 5: you discussed in the introduction, you are I think already
Speaker 5: there that it could happen that you just chat with
Speaker 5: a neural network and you have absolute no idea that
Speaker 5: you chat with a new network and you might argue
Speaker 5: about odd lots for like an hour and don't realize that.
Speaker 2: I'm just thinking, like half the people I argue with
Speaker 2: on Twitter probably are.
Speaker 1: Bots neural networks.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, maybe just to step back in time a
Speaker 2: little bit, I mean, world coin has been around for
Speaker 2: a few years now, and to some degree, as Joe mentioned,
Speaker 2: you guys kind of anticipated this threat. What was the
Speaker 2: sort of aha moment that made this all come together, Like,
Speaker 2: how did this actually develop into a company, and what
Speaker 2: was the use case thesis when you were just setting.
Speaker 5: Out, Well, we honestly did not. We didn't start off
Speaker 5: to solve a threat, all right, that is not brief
Speaker 5: history in time. Sure, back then, I did research.
Speaker 4: So we started the company a little bit over three
Speaker 4: years ago.
Speaker 5: And I was doing research in deep learning applied to
Speaker 5: quantum physics. So I basically predicted quantum system of neural
Speaker 5: networks and that's I think it's a very promising field
Speaker 5: in physics. And Sam was already working on the idea
Speaker 5: overall kind together with Max, so I think they've already
Speaker 5: been on it for like six months. But of course
Speaker 5: Sam had a full time job at opening Ie. Max
Speaker 5: had a full time job back then, so it was
Speaker 5: all like in an early idea face. Then I got
Speaker 5: an email from from Max back then to Poop with
Speaker 5: like an early paper describing the vision of world cooin
Speaker 5: and that it should come by and talk. And then
Speaker 5: at a couple of interree years with Max uh one
Speaker 5: with Sam, we spent a lot of time together and
Speaker 5: actually decided to.
Speaker 4: Proceed, but.
Speaker 5: To go back to the initial proposition, and I think
Speaker 5: that is very important. It's not about solving a threat,
Speaker 5: but rather how I mean, Sam was already breaking in
Speaker 5: open EIE and this was three years ago, so back
Speaker 5: then it was not yet an accepted topic that AI
Speaker 5: is going to happen and it's going to be as
Speaker 5: powerful as today.
Speaker 4: It was like a very.
Speaker 5: Niche topic I think, although open of course was already
Speaker 5: quite famous entity. But of course Sam was motivated by
Speaker 5: the idea of AI and what it's going to do
Speaker 5: to the world and it's going to be this very
Speaker 5: powerful technology. And so the initial proposition of Rocline was
Speaker 5: really what is the societal infrastructure that we can build
Speaker 5: that makes sure that AI is for the better of
Speaker 5: all of society versus a few and so there's a
Speaker 5: there's a many things actually that come together here, like
Speaker 5: proof of personhood is what you just described, is the
Speaker 5: ability to prove that you're actually human being on the Internet,
Speaker 5: which is basically just a much more capable identity system.
Speaker 4: But it goes as far as.
Speaker 5: We think eventually UBI will become a thing, and it
Speaker 5: actually is like a big chance if you have like
Speaker 5: a very very powerful technology and it's not about kind
Speaker 5: of political redistribution, but you have a very centralizing technology
Speaker 5: that you want to share the upside with the world with.
Speaker 5: And there was another motivation, kind of Rokin can actually
Speaker 5: be the infrastructure to do that, because you have a
Speaker 5: very capable identity system, you have an economic system that
Speaker 5: connects everyone. So there were like a couple of very
Speaker 5: ambitious reasons why we think something like that. So basically
Speaker 5: creating and bootstrapping the largest identity and financial network that
Speaker 5: is actually open and privacy preserving versus relying on centralized
Speaker 5: government systems that might not work in large parts of
Speaker 5: the world is a very important preposition for the coming decades.
Speaker 1: So let's just jump right to it. If you're listening
Speaker 1: people who are listening to this podcast, you might want
Speaker 1: to actually watch the video version. We're recording this on
Speaker 1: video as well. People just the audio butt here on
Speaker 1: the set. I'm just gonna I was gonna wait a
Speaker 1: little while before unveiling it, but this is I'm holding
Speaker 1: in my.
Speaker 2: Hand like we need extra music, a big.
Speaker 1: Orb It feels about six pounds. I don't know how
Speaker 1: heavy is this, Alex, I'm sure you know the exact weight.
Speaker 4: It's a little bit over one kilogram.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, so I was wrong on So that's like
Speaker 1: just on like about two and a half pounds, Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: that's fine, about two and have found and it's an
Speaker 1: eyeball scanner, and so here it is, and it's not
Speaker 1: working right now, or we're not scanning right now, so
Speaker 1: I can like tilt this in our face. It's not scanning.
Speaker 1: But let's like talk about what this piece of hardware
Speaker 1: that I'm actually holding it is that I'm going to
Speaker 1: set it on the table in front of me. There's
Speaker 1: an eyeball scanner. What does it do?
Speaker 5: So the show to answer is one it will start
Speaker 5: with shortened than the longer answer. The short answer is
Speaker 5: that it first ensures that whatever is interacting with the device,
Speaker 5: is an actual human being, So okay, not a display,
Speaker 5: not a photograph of an eyeball, not a photograph or
Speaker 5: like more sophisticated optical attacks, because there's like many.
Speaker 4: Things that you can do here.
Speaker 5: So that's the first step checking that whatever we see
Speaker 5: is an actual human being. And then the second piece
Speaker 5: is it takes an image of my eye, calculates a
Speaker 5: unique embedding out of this picture. Everything happens on a device,
Speaker 5: and that embedding then signed by the device, and that's
Speaker 5: then the only thing that actually leaves the device and
Speaker 5: gets compared against all other users. And if that uniqueness
Speaker 5: check is successful, then me that I just verified with
Speaker 5: an ORB I then can later do a zero knowledge
Speaker 5: proof that I am included in that set. And if
Speaker 5: you're not familiar with your knowledge proves, what it allows
Speaker 5: you to do is it lets you prove something without
Speaker 5: actually revealing the underlying information. So what that enables us
Speaker 5: to do is it builds a self like essentially a
Speaker 5: self custodial identity network where the data control is with
Speaker 5: the user and there's no centralized entity that actually has
Speaker 5: the information of who you are, where you're from. All
Speaker 5: of these things but rather this person is a unique
Speaker 5: human being and has verified revocan before, while the user
Speaker 5: could decide to attach more information to that. So that's
Speaker 5: kind of the short of it. I think we should
Speaker 5: talk much more about the why and for a second,
Speaker 5: because that's not trivial.
Speaker 4: But yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe just to help us get to the why,
Speaker 2: you could talk about what would be a practical use
Speaker 2: case for this technology. Because if I think about something
Speaker 2: like you know, you mentioned UBI universal Basic income. If
Speaker 2: I think a government starts some sort of UBI program,
Speaker 2: then I would assume that they identify people by something
Speaker 2: like a social Security number or whatever the equivalent might
Speaker 2: be in that country. So what does this do that
Speaker 2: those traditional systems of identity.
Speaker 4: Do not well?
Speaker 5: So when you start with traditional identity, the really hard
Speaker 5: thing for governments is actually making sure everyone only has
Speaker 5: one password, and that is with an identity is called deduplication.
Speaker 5: It's a really hard problem because all the systems, all
Speaker 5: the technologies you use usually in your life, let's say
Speaker 5: your iPhone Phase ID. What that actually does is just
Speaker 5: it re authenticates you, so it realizes I'm the same
Speaker 5: person again logging into that phone. And that's a one
Speaker 5: to one comparison, and that is fairly easy to do.
Speaker 5: What is really hard to do is making sure okay,
Speaker 5: Alex did not sign up compared to a billion other people.
Speaker 5: And so that's why many governments actually have biometric systems
Speaker 5: in place, because otherwise also their Social Security number system
Speaker 5: would completely break. But that's not rolled out globally. So
Speaker 5: in fact, a good mental model is about fifty percent
Speaker 5: of the global population actually have a digitally verifiable identity.
Speaker 4: But that's a huge number of people.
Speaker 5: That just don't have it right, And so I think
Speaker 5: United States is pretty good, or at least decent. It's
Speaker 5: actually not a really good at any solution. Europe in
Speaker 5: parts is pretty capable. The strongest is India, although there's
Speaker 5: definitely privacy concerns here because they don't use you knowledge
Speaker 5: proofs and things like that.
Speaker 4: But for example, India.
Speaker 5: They have a program called at HOR that also used
Speaker 5: ours recognition to kind of roll out to the global
Speaker 5: population and it really accelerated the whole economy like crazy.
Speaker 5: So they had at HOR and then they build UPI
Speaker 5: on Top, which is a payment rail, and so whenever
Speaker 5: you talk to people that are in that kind of
Speaker 5: area of technology, everyone always brings up India as the
Speaker 5: most prominent example of like what identity plus a strong
Speaker 5: financial rail can actually do to accelerate an economy.
Speaker 4: So, and this is what roll coin is doing. Basically,
Speaker 4: roll coin.
Speaker 5: Is is able to create a d duplication set, so
Speaker 5: it provides me with the ability to prove that I'm
Speaker 5: actually unique against everyone else. But then also there's a
Speaker 5: world ID, which is an identity protocol on top of that.
Speaker 4: And let's start with the basics.
Speaker 5: So the first thing I could do is I could
Speaker 5: log into Twitter and I could say I don't already
Speaker 5: have a Twitter account without actually really my name, And
Speaker 5: then a few things a little bit forward. You could
Speaker 5: even cryptographically sign every tweet you make, so that you
Speaker 5: kind of lay a trace of like, okay, this is
Speaker 5: actually Alex versus anyone else. And I think this is
Speaker 5: really where this is going to go, right, because this
Speaker 5: progress around AI is definitely an exponential So we will
Speaker 5: get to a place where you will help You will
Speaker 5: have to authenticate pretty much everything you do on the internet.
Speaker 4: So that's the basic.
Speaker 5: But then with rold eddy, which is a protocol that
Speaker 5: lets you add verifiable credentials and many other things, with
Speaker 5: an identity space, you can actually bootstop a whole identity
Speaker 5: system on top.
Speaker 4: So this was like a quick grant. But no, it's good.
Speaker 2: So it's not that it's proving that you are, you know,
Speaker 2: a Joe Wisenthal or a Tracy Alloway. It's proving that
Speaker 2: there is only one of you without necessarily the ID
Speaker 2: attached or the name attached.
Speaker 4: That is exactly so that that is the I.
Speaker 5: That is the whole point because then but then what
Speaker 5: we're id lets you do so if you're not into crypto,
Speaker 5: but this whole idea of self custody is very important,
Speaker 5: right of course, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 4: It came up before.
Speaker 5: What that lets you do is you basically you verify
Speaker 5: for well, can you receive your world Eddy? And then
Speaker 5: it might be that for some applications you actually want
Speaker 5: to prove that you're over eighteen or you're Joe viisatal.
Speaker 5: Then the world Eddie protocol, which is literally just like
Speaker 5: an open source protocol and every developer, every company could
Speaker 5: implement with that, You as a user reader can then
Speaker 5: decide to also attach additional information to your world Eddie,
Speaker 5: so that is my name or that is my can
Speaker 5: we see information and then you can decide to reveel
Speaker 5: that to some applications with zon knowledge proofs as well,
Speaker 5: but no one other than you actually has that information.
Speaker 1: So I think, God, I've I have like hundreds of questions.
Speaker 1: There are so many different ways. So you know, one
Speaker 1: basic but one idea. You keep mentioning zero knowledge proven
Speaker 1: just to sort of like the basic idea, And this
Speaker 1: is the shortest. Like you know, I go to websites,
Speaker 1: sometimes government websites, you entering your social security number. But
Speaker 1: the idea is with zero knowledge proof, it would be
Speaker 1: I prove to the government that I know my social
Speaker 1: Security number without telling the government what my social security
Speaker 1: number is.
Speaker 5: Well, I mean that that one is actually tricky because
Speaker 5: in that cause you would reveal the social security number.
Speaker 5: What is a much more what is a much better
Speaker 5: way to explain it is a website asks you are
Speaker 5: you on any kinds of sanctional list?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 5: Or are you over eighteen? Or are you actually a
Speaker 5: US citizen?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 5: And then these things you could prove of zon knowledge
Speaker 5: And then basically what comes out of this is like
Speaker 5: approve runs on your phone that you're not included in
Speaker 5: a sanctions list. Let's say and that the only thing
Speaker 5: that comes out and ends up with the website is
Speaker 5: yes or no. But the website does not know what
Speaker 5: is the social security number you check against it.
Speaker 1: So then the other question I have, and the obvious
Speaker 1: thing is look, scanning your eyeball it's gonna make anyone anxious,
Speaker 1: and I'm like totally upward even I'm like, you know,
Speaker 1: a little bit anxious about it. How do you establish
Speaker 1: so there's no unlike say clear at the airport, which
Speaker 1: also uses an eyeball scan so that you can go
Speaker 1: buy security, there's no centralized database of our irises, And
Speaker 1: how do you sort of like establish or prove to
Speaker 1: people that there's no database Because if my understanding, there
Speaker 1: has been reporting that at least at some point in
Speaker 1: the process of the development of world Cli and as
Speaker 1: you've grown as a startup, that at one point or
Speaker 1: at least currently there was a Irish database.
Speaker 4: Okay, so there there's many things here. Yeah, we've got
Speaker 4: to start.
Speaker 5: I'm going to start with explaining how to develop comfort
Speaker 5: around the idea and why why it's necessary. So, first
Speaker 5: of all, I hated the idea of building the door,
Speaker 5: like when we.
Speaker 4: Actually started working a rockin like it.
Speaker 5: It was absolutely horrific because it's We've been four people
Speaker 5: sitting in a smart, small apartment in San Francisco and
Speaker 5: the idea of building hydred devices that take biometric data
Speaker 5: and enroll theomagic globally was a horrific idea back then.
Speaker 5: One because it's very complicated expensive, And then yeah.
Speaker 2: I imagine pitching that one to VCS would be kind
Speaker 2: of tricky.
Speaker 4: Right, Oh, it was, it was. It was horrific.
Speaker 5: It was in the middle of it was also like,
Speaker 5: I mean rock kind is also a crypto project, and
Speaker 5: well I want to ask you. Yeah, we started like
Speaker 5: in the middle of a bear market. So I remember
Speaker 5: back then when we talked the first syvestors, They're like, okay,
Speaker 5: like other than etheroreum or bridcoin, nothing will exist, Like
Speaker 5: all of this nonsense. What do you talk about AI? Also,
Speaker 5: no one cares about that. Also like what are you
Speaker 5: even doing?
Speaker 4: So?
Speaker 5: But again, so neither me or anyone else was really
Speaker 5: excited about building a hyder device. But really we spent
Speaker 5: almost a year doing research in pretty much everything you
Speaker 5: could do to solve the problem, right, and solving the
Speaker 5: problem is okay, issuing a privacy preserving identity that works globally,
Speaker 5: not only in the United States, not only in Europe.
Speaker 5: What do we have to do? And there's basically like
Speaker 5: three big answers to this. One is you use government
Speaker 5: KYC right, which might be a sufficient answer for some
Speaker 5: parts of the world, but it was pretty shocking to
Speaker 5: realize for how few right, So kind of that very
Speaker 5: quickly disqualified. Second is what people call of trust, So
Speaker 5: this whole idea that you just like you build reputation
Speaker 5: between people, and that also, like in Shure, it just
Speaker 5: didn't work.
Speaker 4: And the second and then the third.
Speaker 5: Is biometrics and everything that surrounds that whole field. And
Speaker 5: within biometrics, we then build prototypes for pretty much everything
Speaker 5: you could imagine. We build palm scanners, we build kind
Speaker 5: of a phase ID like implementation of it, we build
Speaker 5: fingerprint scanners, all these things. But the short of it
Speaker 5: is to solve this D duplication problem. So this uniqueness check,
Speaker 5: you need a lot of entropy, so information about each user.
Speaker 5: If you don't have that, your error rate explodes exponentially.
Speaker 5: And so simple example, if you would use a face
Speaker 5: ID to solve the same problem, after tens of millions
Speaker 5: of users, you would have to reject everyone, so you
Speaker 5: don't have a constant errate. You don't have like five
Speaker 5: percent will constantly reject, but you just hit a wall
Speaker 5: and your system breaks, and.
Speaker 4: So face does work.
Speaker 5: Same is true for fingerprints, and the only thing that
Speaker 5: really works is and is proven to work as harvest recognition.
Speaker 4: So that's why we ended up there.
Speaker 5: And then even with an iris recognition, we even had
Speaker 5: to build our own hardware. We had to build our
Speaker 5: own lens, which sounds absolutely ridiculous, but we kind of
Speaker 5: had to build this whole device from the ground up
Speaker 5: to make that happen.
Speaker 4: So much to the why and.
Speaker 5: How do we get people are like, how do we
Speaker 5: think about this whole headline of comfort around this? There's
Speaker 5: a couple of things. One actually built a privacy preserving
Speaker 5: system that goes way further than what you're used to,
Speaker 5: all right, And that's I think really what we did
Speaker 5: because there's no information about you that you actually reveal
Speaker 5: by using world coin, and I think.
Speaker 4: That's pretty remarkable.
Speaker 5: It's definitely countentitive because you're like, okay, we use eyeball
Speaker 5: scanning and yeah, so this is headline one, headline two,
Speaker 5: and that's a journey for sure is open sourcing everything, right,
Speaker 5: So this, I think that's one of the core parts
Speaker 5: of the crypto ethos is just you don't have to trust,
Speaker 5: but rather you can verify and we the hardware is
Speaker 5: completely open source already, the software to meaningful parts, the
Speaker 5: protocol completely and so everything will be open source in
Speaker 5: the coming months. And so that's that's answer two. And
Speaker 5: then three.
Speaker 4: It actually is way less of a thing than you
Speaker 4: would think.
Speaker 5: So we have now one point seven million users, roughly
Speaker 5: six hundred thousand of them that use the app on
Speaker 5: a monthly basis.
Speaker 4: I travel the world very frequently.
Speaker 5: I talk to a lot of users on the ground
Speaker 5: and just like try to understand what's kind of what's
Speaker 5: what's your feeling, what do you what do you understand?
Speaker 4: What you not do understand?
Speaker 5: And it is very much Yeah, like broadly speakingly speaking,
Speaker 5: this is way less of a concern, which obviously does
Speaker 5: not lure our bar but it's the case.
Speaker 2: So I have two things on that, and I think
Speaker 2: they're sort of related. But one why does open source
Speaker 2: seem to be such a thing an AI in particular?
Speaker 2: And then secondly, what is the crypto role in this project?
Speaker 2: Because yeah, you know we mentioned world coin. I can
Speaker 2: only imagine what it was like pitching two vcs in
Speaker 2: the midst of crypto bear market saying we want to
Speaker 2: scan everyone's eyeballs and oh, by the way, there's also
Speaker 2: like a crypto element to this as well, a token.
Speaker 2: Why have that component of it?
Speaker 5: I mean, at this point I'm actually not an AI
Speaker 5: expert anymore because I think I'm basically two years out
Speaker 5: of the field. Went it too crypto, which is an
Speaker 5: interesting journey also, but as.
Speaker 2: Soon you'll be going back into AI probably that's what
Speaker 2: all the crypto people are doing.
Speaker 4: Now right, Well, no.
Speaker 2: Joking.
Speaker 5: So why is open sourcing such a thing? It is
Speaker 5: basically around AI specifically. It is that you have a
Speaker 5: technology that is probably as foundational as electricity, as literally
Speaker 5: like it's it's still I think, incomprehensible to people. What
Speaker 5: a big deal this is, right, This is like one
Speaker 5: of the biggest paradigm shifts in technology that happened ever.
Speaker 5: And there is different approaches of how to deal with
Speaker 5: this and all the underlying risks, and basically two different
Speaker 5: lines of thought is one as the open source everything.
Speaker 5: Everyone should be able to ratify and understand how everything
Speaker 5: is happening, and then the other is, well, you actually
Speaker 5: kind of have to lock down these models because if
Speaker 5: it ends up in the wrong hands, then malicious actors
Speaker 5: have a lot of power. And I think, I mean
Speaker 5: OPENINGI is definitely the kind of in the center of
Speaker 5: discourse because it started with open sourcing and then the
Speaker 5: team realized throughout the years that actually this whole premise
Speaker 5: of open sourcing is probably a terrible idea. So that's
Speaker 5: why it's a discussion discussion with an AI. Within crypto,
Speaker 5: it is just that the whole thesis of crypto is
Speaker 5: that you build actual protocols, not companies, So you build
Speaker 5: systems that are not dependent on a small group of people,
Speaker 5: can be completely verified and can run over decades without
Speaker 5: being interrupted by a living and that's open sources, just
Speaker 5: like the core of this, together with decentralization. So I
Speaker 5: think that's a I actually do think with an AI
Speaker 5: it's it's a very overblown discussion.
Speaker 4: I think within crypto it's the core thesis almost.
Speaker 2: And so the crypto element with world coin, as I
Speaker 2: understand it, is to like insert a degree of I
Speaker 2: guess community control over that technology. Right, Like there's some
Speaker 2: talk about the tokens coming with voting rights and things
Speaker 2: like that.
Speaker 4: There are so many things there.
Speaker 5: Actually, one is I think crypto, and that's something that
Speaker 5: is if you're not kind of deeply in the space,
Speaker 5: that is hard to kind of realize what a big
Speaker 5: deal is. But it is this idea that tokens build
Speaker 5: business models for networks almost right, So you don't know,
Speaker 5: you don't have a company, but rather you have a
Speaker 5: you have a like let's let's let's say ethereum. Etheroreum
Speaker 5: is a very powerful protocol, but it has kind of
Speaker 5: an underlying business model. But it's not that Vitaly gets
Speaker 5: rich by that. It is his fees on the system.
Speaker 5: He well, he did, but because he was early, not
Speaker 5: because now he still makes money. Right, It's not that
Speaker 5: the company is printing money and then Vitaly gets rich
Speaker 5: every month, but rather you have a token and you
Speaker 5: have a fee structure, and as the utility increases, the
Speaker 5: network can basically sustain itself, right, so it can sustain
Speaker 5: its security, it can sustain its operation and things like that,
Speaker 5: and so.
Speaker 4: You basically find a way how you fund a.
Speaker 5: Decentralized operation and can it just let it sustain over
Speaker 5: time and that is one of the big core things
Speaker 5: here is you build very like when rol con works,
Speaker 5: it's really foundational infrastructure. It's I think, without being overconfident,
Speaker 5: I think it's it is a very big deal because
Speaker 5: it's a very foundational piece of technology. It just doesn't
Speaker 5: exist right now. That should not be in the hands
Speaker 5: off a few people, but rather it should be governed
Speaker 5: by a wider group of people, and it should actually
Speaker 5: be decentralized. So also that it cannot break just if
Speaker 5: I'm in a bad mood, Let's say that would be depth.
Speaker 2: That would be so instead of having like a centralized
Speaker 2: actor who controls the ORB, which is a sentence I
Speaker 2: didn't think I would say today you have this decentralized
Speaker 2: group of investors slash stakeholders. Is that how it works?
Speaker 3: Yep, got it.
Speaker 5: This is like the sparks now like a whole other
Speaker 5: part of conversation, but basically how it works is so
Speaker 5: the ORB is an open source heard of advice. Right now,
Speaker 5: the company that I'm a CEO of Tools for Humanity
Speaker 5: is the only ones that produce these orbs. But this
Speaker 5: will change, so you will have, like if you're fast
Speaker 5: forward two three years in the future, you and I
Speaker 5: have many companies that produce their implementation of the ORB
Speaker 5: following the same standards that connect to the work on protocol.
Speaker 4: Right, so you basically.
Speaker 1: Apple could produce an or theoremically.
Speaker 5: Apple, Microsoft, like whatever, they could produce their own ORB,
Speaker 5: follow their own standards, make it, design it the way
Speaker 5: they want, but it will connect to the protocol, and
Speaker 5: that will allow for just a very foundational protocol on
Speaker 5: the Internet that everyone can use that doesn't break. And
Speaker 5: the token distributes the governance and also the incentive makingsmus
Speaker 5: all around the same goal.
Speaker 1: So I mean you talked about the importance of like, okay,
Speaker 1: if this is going to be this foundational infrastructure that
Speaker 1: everyone uses in some way to verify themselves or whatever,
Speaker 1: and also is the sort of rails perhaps for some
Speaker 1: universal basic income that we all need because you know,
Speaker 1: AI is going to put half of us out of
Speaker 1: jobs in theory, like okay, it's better be like not
Speaker 1: just controlled no offense by Alex Blanya and Sam Altman,
Speaker 1: like that'd be kind of weird. But how do we
Speaker 1: know this not the case? And I want to go
Speaker 1: back to a question I asked specifically about like in
Speaker 1: the past, like have you had a IRIS database.
Speaker 5: So how it works is and that's not it's not
Speaker 5: a secret. Basically, when you when you verify with with
Speaker 5: roll coin, go to the flow. So let's say here
Speaker 5: what roll coin, you're excited about it?
Speaker 4: Whatever, you want to sign up? You download an app.
Speaker 5: Right now, there's only one app that lets you do that,
Speaker 5: but soon that also will change. So right now that
Speaker 5: it is called world app. It's a non constudial wallet.
Speaker 5: You click verify now, a map pops up, hopefully we're
Speaker 5: near you. You go to an orb and then you
Speaker 5: show kr open. Thirty seconds later you receive your world
Speaker 5: eddy and you also receive world coin on a rolling basis.
Speaker 5: Every week receive like a small part.
Speaker 4: Of world coin. And in that kind of flow.
Speaker 5: Because we're in beta, we actually did not launch yet
Speaker 5: right The launch is something that's going to happen recentaly soon.
Speaker 5: It's also why we talk right now, why it's a
Speaker 5: very important moment in time for us. There you had
Speaker 5: two options, opt in or opt out. Opt out is
Speaker 5: basically we don't have any data of you. Opt in
Speaker 5: means we basically have custody of your data. For the
Speaker 5: reason that the neural networks that are on this device
Speaker 5: right now are still in development, and so if you
Speaker 5: opt out, it could happen that you have to reverify
Speaker 5: in a year or so, because we basically just updated
Speaker 5: a model as we as we as we went. But
Speaker 5: where this is going is very clearly by and I
Speaker 5: think actually launch, it will be completely opt out.
Speaker 4: This is just.
Speaker 5: That the nature of being in beta and developing technology
Speaker 5: as we go.
Speaker 2: So I take the point that you're in beta at
Speaker 2: the moment. But you know, the arc of recent technological
Speaker 2: innovation seems to be that people often come up with
Speaker 2: something with the best of intentions or in order to
Speaker 2: solve an identified problem, and then it often gets used
Speaker 2: in the worst possible way. So what's like the terrible
Speaker 2: use case arc of this technology? Because one thing that
Speaker 2: springs to mind, and you know, we could talk about
Speaker 2: robot invasions and like terminator style AI takeovers, but like
Speaker 2: one more realistic thing that would spring to mind is, Okay,
Speaker 2: you set something like this up and then as you
Speaker 2: walk through a shopping mall, you know, there's some other
Speaker 2: technology that's scanning your eyeballs, identifying who you are and
Speaker 2: maybe pitching targeted ads or something like that. Like how
Speaker 2: do you separate the identity verification from companies using that
Speaker 2: for other purposes?
Speaker 4: Yep. So we actually have a quite.
Speaker 5: In dem for extreme in the company right now in
Speaker 5: Tools Rehumanity, and we will publish this as we go
Speaker 5: that just like we tried to come of the worst,
Speaker 5: weirdest scenarios of like whatever China's attacking the network with
Speaker 5: billions of the like what could actually happen?
Speaker 4: What could go wrong? Right?
Speaker 5: So the thing is given seer knowledge proofs separate your
Speaker 5: walid from the kind of the uniqueness check the only
Speaker 5: thing that could happen. And to be clear, in some
Speaker 5: cases that actually, like if you think ten years in
Speaker 5: the future and you think, like rollkindness is very powerful
Speaker 5: technology that could actually be bad is people could say, Okay,
Speaker 5: that individual is verified with roll coin, yes or no, right,
Speaker 5: and that might like you could definitely think of scenarios
Speaker 5: of like, okay, China is banning roll coin because it's
Speaker 5: literally the anti thesis of what they're building with their
Speaker 5: in anity.
Speaker 4: System, because it's privacy preserving that.
Speaker 5: You might actually have it might be bad for you
Speaker 5: to be verified with roll coin or whatever. Right, So
Speaker 5: there's like there's some set scenarios here. But I think
Speaker 5: that's that is pretty much the worst case scenario you're
Speaker 5: looking at, because otherwise the only like, let's go even
Speaker 5: to the far extreme, which to be very clear, is
Speaker 5: not what is the case.
Speaker 4: Let's say there would be like a huge database.
Speaker 5: Of of of biometric images of all users.
Speaker 4: It's not connected to your actual account, so.
Speaker 5: You you still have the most there's like multiple players,
Speaker 5: layers of privacy in between.
Speaker 4: But did make sure that nothing really bad is happening there?
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna get into a slightly macabre arc of
Speaker 1: this or maybe sci fi angle, but since we're just
Speaker 1: talking about bad things happening, I'm just gonna go there,
Speaker 1: which is eyeball theft? Someone cutting out, uh if a
Speaker 1: really important person who uses world coin to verify themselves
Speaker 1: on some network, a criminal attacker physically maiming someone like
Speaker 1: I imagine these these these sort of scenarios are digging up
Speaker 1: the dead for their eyeballs. Can these must come up
Speaker 1: in your conversations about really extreme scene. Can you talk
Speaker 1: about some of these sort of like weird out there
Speaker 1: physical risks?
Speaker 5: Yeah, they all of these sign ups would not work
Speaker 5: because the art would realize that you are that person
Speaker 5: is these eyes are not alive and are not connected
Speaker 5: to an actual This is the.
Speaker 2: Moment on all thoughts when we talk about degenerating eyeball tissue.
Speaker 1: But I don't know.
Speaker 4: Anything part of discussion.
Speaker 1: But no, no, no, I mean I am sure. I'm make
Speaker 1: sure really like this is like what is a liveness
Speaker 1: check like? And I guess it goes back to your
Speaker 1: question of like why eyeballs not thumbprints or why not
Speaker 1: fingerprints or face ID or your gate or something like
Speaker 1: talk to us about that verification. Why the eyeball can't
Speaker 1: be replicated? Why wouldn't work if not attached to a
Speaker 1: live person? Like these must come up? This would this?
Speaker 1: What would freak me out?
Speaker 4: Sure?
Speaker 5: So, so the device has multiple senses in front, there's
Speaker 5: like a lot of computer on this device. There's like
Speaker 5: a separate GPU and this seven year old firks that
Speaker 5: basically at all time run and what a large part
Speaker 5: of these networks is doing is just to make sure
Speaker 5: that whatever we see is an actual human being alive,
Speaker 5: no fraud attack, no kind of weird cases. And then
Speaker 5: there is in front, there's multiple sensors that make sure
Speaker 5: that that's the case. And you could even go as
Speaker 5: far as like an AI trying to attack the system,
Speaker 5: because that can also happen in the future, right, so
Speaker 5: all of that should not happen. And so what the
Speaker 5: ORB does It images multi spectral, So what that means
Speaker 5: is across multiple wavelengths and the electroc neetic spectrum all
Speaker 5: at the same time. And this is just like you
Speaker 5: can think of very sophisticated optical table attacks like I
Speaker 5: did a lot of these physics when I was younger.
Speaker 5: You can think of these things, but it's extremely expensive
Speaker 5: and I think even that will not be possible the future.
Speaker 5: So it's just really really hard to fool this device.
Speaker 5: I mean, of course, to be clear, the infrastructure is there,
Speaker 5: like the new networks are still we were still building up,
Speaker 5: so right now we are actually aware of a couple
Speaker 5: of tacks that can still happen, and that will still
Speaker 5: be the case for the next year. Like all of
Speaker 5: this technology is not perfect yet, so we'll still take time,
Speaker 5: but at least the technology is there to make sure
Speaker 5: that none of these attacks will ever go through.
Speaker 2: So setting aside the worst case scenarios maybe a slightly
Speaker 2: easier question, but what is the path to adoption that
Speaker 2: you see here, because like, there are a lot of
Speaker 2: things it feels like to overcome. One is the creepiness
Speaker 2: factor of having your eyeball scan. But secondly, you know,
Speaker 2: if you're touting this as a way to identify people
Speaker 2: who might be in need of some sort of official
Speaker 2: identification in countries that don't necessarily have those systems yet
Speaker 2: or have subpar systems, I imagine like there has to
Speaker 2: be a reason and why they would want to have
Speaker 2: this done. You know, in most places, in almost all
Speaker 2: places in the world, no one is getting universal basic
Speaker 2: income yet, So what is the path to adoption and
Speaker 2: what are the the incentives for people to do this?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 5: This is kind of the the everything question, Like, of
Speaker 5: course if I would have the perfect.
Speaker 4: Answer to this, I would tweet it out.
Speaker 6: But that's a good answer every question we've ever Keep going,
Speaker 6: So we're worried about being replaced. We don't need that anyway, Sorry,
Speaker 6: keep gone.
Speaker 5: Okay, So there's like there there's a couple different arcs
Speaker 5: to the response to this question, right. So one is
Speaker 5: when we launch, there's going to be a token token
Speaker 5: with a capsule apply that will play a very important
Speaker 5: role in that kind of the whole evolving nature of
Speaker 5: this project. And when you sign up, you basically receive
Speaker 5: on a running basis, you receive ownership in a network
Speaker 5: through the token, And I think that's exciting for a
Speaker 5: lot of reasons.
Speaker 4: Like one, it's a direct incentive.
Speaker 5: It's a direct like you literally get money basically that
Speaker 5: you could you could sell, or you could do anything with.
Speaker 5: So it's already like a very small form of It's
Speaker 5: not basic because there's not enough money, but it's a
Speaker 5: small form of UBI in some sense, I think that
Speaker 5: will motivate a lot of people. And we already see
Speaker 5: it's like moving a lot of people to like we
Speaker 5: have the crazy Like literally right now is the craziest
Speaker 5: time for me running this project because it's blowing up,
Speaker 5: like all the dashboards completely go vertical, and we have
Speaker 5: like people flying from Japan to Portugal to sign up
Speaker 5: and whatever, like it's pretty really, it's pretty crazy. So
Speaker 5: that certainly does something that's one too is of course integrations.
Speaker 5: So making sure that kind of large technology companies or
Speaker 5: services actually integrate with world ID. That's gonna I mean,
Speaker 5: it's gonna take a while. Because you have a chicken
Speaker 5: egg problem. You need a lot of users for that
Speaker 5: to be interesting too, products and.
Speaker 4: So and so forth. There just like a little bit
Speaker 4: of a balancing act. I'm sure it's going to happen.
Speaker 5: And once that is the case, once you have like
Speaker 5: major integrations, then kind of an actual flywheel is starting
Speaker 5: because as a user you will be able to use
Speaker 5: a lot of services that you're just not able to
Speaker 5: use without it. And so that's kind of that's the
Speaker 5: that's the short of it. And I have a lot
Speaker 5: more specific specific answers are much more localized as well.
Speaker 5: So for example, we are in Bonos Aires and so
Speaker 5: we will work on local integrations in Argentina. So it
Speaker 5: will not start with Twitter or Meta. It will start
Speaker 5: with like very localized applications. But yeah, that's where it goes.
Speaker 1: Since this is odd lots, I have a really quick question.
Speaker 1: You know, you built this I'm going to pick it
Speaker 1: up again because it's really kind of fun the whole
Speaker 1: or you built this piece of hardware, Yeah, this ORB.
Speaker 1: Do you have any supply interesting supply chain issues in
Speaker 1: terms of the optics, so the semiconductors or I mean
Speaker 1: it's a and how much does a right now cost
Speaker 1: to build an ORB?
Speaker 5: So we had especially during COVID, we had crazy supply
Speaker 5: chain crunches. So it's like generally, like Elon talked a
Speaker 5: lot about this in the earlier days, but I definitely
Speaker 5: also ran into this. It's like you have a perfect
Speaker 5: running prototype and then it just feels trivial to produce
Speaker 5: this thing, but it's just not. It was absolutely terrific,
Speaker 5: Like we had this, We had this prototype, and then
Speaker 5: building up a production line and really being able to
Speaker 5: produce like thousands of them. It was a completely different
Speaker 5: challenge that it almost took like a year or two
Speaker 5: to complete. Doctors locked us in and then within COVID
Speaker 5: we had crazy supply chain issues, but it's now mostly gone.
Speaker 5: The kind of the industry has completely recovered.
Speaker 2: What was the hardest component to get.
Speaker 4: Oh, when it was it was death by a thousand cuts.
Speaker 5: It was everything from the computing unit to random capacitors,
Speaker 5: weird ones that we use. We have like that the
Speaker 5: actual lens right now is single source supplier, which is
Speaker 5: something that obviously has to change. But since we customly
Speaker 5: had to build this lens, there's only one company in
Speaker 5: the world that builds that lens, so that that was
Speaker 5: a really tricky one to kind of ramp it up
Speaker 5: over time. How much does it cost right now? Right
Speaker 5: now is still We're still pretty expensive. But honestly, it
Speaker 5: doesn't really matter because so right now it's like four thousand,
Speaker 5: four to five thousand dollars depending on the exact patch,
Speaker 5: it's coming down to be around one thousand, five hundred
Speaker 5: dollars at mass manufacturing, and I think in a couple
Speaker 5: of years it's going to be below five hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: We got to put the THOT to put the ORB
Speaker 1: into the FEDS inflation basket. We're getting so much better
Speaker 1: at producing eyeball scanning orbs.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, healthcare and medical care massively inflated, but we
Speaker 2: can all scan our eyeballs cheaper and cheaper excellent.
Speaker 1: Alex Bonya, this was such a fascinating conversation. It's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's like a million more things I could
Speaker 1: want to ask, and maybe we'll have you back in
Speaker 1: a year and then in two years when we're all
Speaker 1: on UBI because we've been put out of work by
Speaker 1: AI and so, you know, whatever it is. But this
Speaker 1: was this was far and away our most sort of
Speaker 1: like futuristic sci fi ish conversation we've ever had not
Speaker 1: something I would have ever contemplated in the past. So
Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on outbox amazing.
Speaker 4: I take that as a compliment. Thanks for absolutely question.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was really interesting, Tracy.
Speaker 1: Are you are you going to get scanned?
Speaker 3: You know what?
Speaker 2: I think I'm gonna wait a little bit until there's
Speaker 2: some visible upside for me, which which is kind of
Speaker 2: that last question that I asked Alex, which you know,
Speaker 2: I am reasonably I understand the use case of having
Speaker 2: some sort of like wallet or portable identification that you
Speaker 2: can take with you across the internet and like various outlets.
Speaker 2: That kind of makes sense to me, and I think
Speaker 2: we've spoken about that use case before. However, at this
Speaker 2: point in time, I don't see a lot of upside.
Speaker 2: Uh you know, maybe it would be easier to file
Speaker 2: some claims against Twitter for like yeah, bought copycats, but
Speaker 2: it's not much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but and to your point though, like or and
Speaker 1: really or sorry to Alex's point, like, so it's on Twitter,
Speaker 1: like do they want to integrate the world coin? Yeah,
Speaker 1: which I don't actually get the impression that, Like I'm
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like any of the big networks like
Speaker 1: are anywhere, like that's on the roadmap of anyone, right.
Speaker 2: Well, this is the other thing I'm thinking about, is, uh,
Speaker 2: you know, part of the world coin use case is
Speaker 2: this decentralization aspect of it. But what we've seen time
Speaker 2: and time again throughout history is that the world tends
Speaker 2: towards middlemen and verification of some sort. So I can
Speaker 2: imagine a future where maybe you do get your eyeball scanned,
Speaker 2: but maybe it's not by world coin or decentralized entity.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's Twitter itself, and they this is even more discian,
Speaker 2: you know, like Twitter keeps its own database of your eyeballs.
Speaker 1: Well that's the thing, like I used clear, you know,
Speaker 1: like I already like scanned my ball at the airport,
Speaker 1: and it's like one hundred dollars. That's a centralized database.
Speaker 1: I save a few minutes. It's like I've already I
Speaker 1: could when it comes to privacy, I've already like basically
Speaker 1: given up. I've already given it all up to save
Speaker 1: about five minutes in the airline. So I guess I've like, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, I'll get scanned, why not. But I'm skeptical,
Speaker 1: you know, actually, honestly, it's not even like the privacy
Speaker 1: or anything like that, or like the dystopian scenarios so
Speaker 1: much as like, I don't really want a scenario in
Speaker 1: which like computers put us all out of jobs and
Speaker 1: we need the UBI, and I think we didn't really
Speaker 1: get into like this scenario in the future, Like where
Speaker 1: will the political impulse from UBI come from. It'll come
Speaker 1: from in an economy that's so lopsided in who reaps
Speaker 1: the benefits of AI that we like have to have
Speaker 1: it for political stability, which is that's like the scenario
Speaker 1: that like freaks me out more than anything.
Speaker 2: Right in the future where you really need world coin,
Speaker 2: Like the most insidious thing is that you need it
Speaker 2: because no one has jobs.
Speaker 1: That's right, right, Like more than anything else, the scan
Speaker 1: or whatever, it's this scenario in which, oh, I need
Speaker 1: to get my UBI from like somewhere, and like they
Speaker 1: attack sam Altman so that we can all Like that's
Speaker 1: like the part more than the SCAN or the privacy
Speaker 1: or the you know, the digging up the dead that
Speaker 1: freaks me out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm telling you a great business model create the
Speaker 2: problem and the solution. On that happy note, shall we
Speaker 2: leave it there.
Speaker 1: Let's leave it there, all right.
Speaker 2: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at
Speaker 2: Tracy Alloway.
Speaker 1: And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me on Twitter
Speaker 1: at the Stalwart. Follow our guest Alex Blanya, as he said,
Speaker 1: if he might just tweet it out, he might just
Speaker 1: tweet out the answer to all of these things. He's
Speaker 1: at Alex Blana. And follow our producers on Twitter Carmen
Speaker 1: Rodriguez at Carmen Arman and dash Ol Bennett at dashbot.
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